[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/jp/ - Otaku Culture

View post   
  [?]In ghost mode, only threads with non-archived posts will be shown
File: 37 KB, 250x322, 1211477871755.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
691038 No.691038 [Reply] [Original]

What problems do you think Japanese people have while learning English?

I imagine words that are supposed side by side like 'had had' or 'that that' would confuse the fuck out of me if I was learning English.

"He said that....that...that that? He said that that 'that' man said that?"

>> No.691057

Characters like m and n and pqbd.
Sentence structure.
Realizing english words are not kanji and cannot just be thrown together to make new words and ideas.

>> No.691064

Pronunciation.

Colonel is pronounced kernal? What?

>> No.691068

The biggest problem they have is adjusting to a language that is not completely fucked up.

>> No.691096

Adding S to the end of a word makes it plural.


...except for all these words

>> No.691099

When starting out Japanese, I thought ぬ　め　were similar to begin with, as well as わ　ね　れ. る　ろ as well. You just learn which is which as time goes on.
That pqbd logic does not hold.

>> No.691106

Probably everything related to how people type.

Imagine a jap trying to study the sentence "Fucking hell, I raged at those noob scrubs."

He'd never figure it out.

>> No.691141

>>691106
Or "u suck shit, get out of my face."

Get out of his face? I was inside it?

>> No.691148

Going from one retarded language (Jappo) into another retarded language (English) can be challenging.

>> No.691157

>>691106
that's not specific to Japanese speakers learning English though. I have a tough time with all the 2ch slang.

>> No.691245

Crazily real blatant bragging, the thanksgiving thrall.

>> No.691250

>>691064
Perfect example of why I hate english.
When I was first playing megaman x4 I had trouble with this, wondering what the fuck a colonel is.
Sure I had herd kernel, but never spelled in such a way.

Like g and j, g is supposed to make the "guh" sound, except it breaks this rule in every fucking place.
Garage and garbage, why is the second g in those pronounced like that?

I bring up j because most of the time g is doing j's job, and j is doing whatever the fuck it wants doing shit like silencing itself in words like jalapeño.

Fuck I hate english.

>> No.691262
File: 110 KB, 600x613, 1211770472496.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
691262

>>691245

>> No.691275

>>691250
>english
>jalapeño

>> No.691328

>>691250
At some point English farmers started pronouncing "age" as "aij". Now anywhere those three letters occur near the end of a word, g sounds like j. That's all.

>> No.691330

>>691275
I fucking know.
But do you actually pronounce the j because you're not a spic?
No, it's still silenced.

>> No.691331

>>691250

To be fair, jalapeño is a Spanish word.

And most retarded English speakers pronounce it wrong anyways, so don't get hung up on it.

>> No.691361

I never have really studied the moon language or runes but it just seems like such a huge leap from how English works
I still regret never taking Japanese when I could of started back in school, Italian certainly ended up being no use to me.

>> No.691362

Jalepeno juice drunk in my garage.

>> No.691423

Japanese is easy. Just take any english word and put o or u at the end of it and it's instantly japanese. Except for words that end in n.

>> No.691491

>>691423
ファック　ユー、ファッゴット。

>> No.691512

>>What problems do you think Japanese people have while learning English?

I don't think, I feel http://academy6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1172797189/l50

>> No.691514

>>691423
Katakana would be used in such cases which is used for foreign words and would therefore not be japanese, just given a more japanese'ish pronunciation.

>> No.691529

how do japanese people study english for so many years in school and end up not being able to speak a word of it?

>> No.691536

>>691529
the same way American students have to take a language for years and cant speak a word of it

>> No.691546

>>691529

how do american people study spanish for so many years in school and end up not being able to speak a word of it?

>> No.691576

>>691536
No seriously. American students study foreign languages for 2-3 years whereas Japanese student study it in excess of 10 years.

I mean any student who studies a language for four years is at least expected to be able to carry on basic conversations.

>> No.691593

>>691576

>American students study foreign languages for 2-3 years

...

Try 7.

>> No.691604

>>691546
Because they're are being told that this is an English speaking country and need only that for it, yet everyone who's not an 'American john wayne' speaks more than two languages

>> No.691606

>>691529
The students study test material instead of conversation skills. Also, the sentence structure is reversed, they focus way to much on grammer and pronunciation and they have no use for it besides passing tests.

>> No.691613

>>691576
I had to study a language for 4 years from middle school to 10th grade then given the option to continue until 12th

>> No.691618

>>691593
Uh no. Basic courses, yes but hardly anywhere near 7 years. Same for college. Just fulfill the core and you're done. I took french literature to replace my language course to boot.

>> No.691623

>>691576

Do not confuse studying a language with taking a course at a public junior or senior highschool.

Americans take 10 plus years of mathematics too, and look at the results. Japanese's English ability is about the same.

>> No.691617

>>691593
Last time I was in high school we were required to study 2 years of a foreign language. Did they change it?

>> No.691628

>>691604

You are stupid.

>> No.691635

>>691623
Yes but its a common fact that japanese students aren't nearly as lazy about schoolwork.

>> No.691643

>>691628
No, hes right. The majority of Americans speak at least more than one language.

>> No.691647

>>691546
Because both of our countries think the foreign language we're learning is fucking useless for life. I for one, think the language I'm learning now, Latin, is basically useless since there's no market and nobody uses it anymore. But hey, it's better than learning 'dirty' (no offense) Cuba/Puerto Rico/Mexico Spanish or the pronunciation problem of French.

However, wise people learn a foreign language that the world needs demand for. ie: Chinese, Hindi, Arabic

>> No.691661

>>691647
>dirty
>no offense

Make up your mind, faggot.

You're "anonymous" anyway, so why should you give a shit if it offends someone?

>> No.691671

>>691647
>However, wise people learn a foreign language that the world needs demand for. ie: Chinese, Hindi, Arabic

Thats pretty stupid. They're working way harder at learning english, no point in wasting all that effort.

>> No.691668

>>691635

Well, I know more than a handful of lazy poorly educated japs. But, it is true that the highschool graduation ratio in Japan is far above that of the USA.

Personally I think the US is just more willing to flunk a student.

>> No.691669

>>691647

They're stupid if they think English is useless. Spanish on the other hand definitely is and I don't begrudge anyone who refuses to learn it just so they can deal with the stupid wetbacks who can't be bothered to learn English. I would've been happy to learn almost any language other than the ones they offered in school. Forcing someone to choose between Spanish and French is a great way to make them not want to learn anything.

>> No.691683

>>691669
Most immigrants, illegal or otherwise speak english as a second language, so I don't know where the "english is useless" notion is coming from considering its the most-studied second language on the planet.

>> No.691685

>>691669

>They're stupid if they think English is useless.

Non-japanese make up only around 3 percent of the population of their tiny xenophobic island.

To the average Japanese, English is a useless language.

In the international market, that is of course different. But it doesn't affect most japs in their daily lives in any noticable way. Or rather it's not much of an inspiration to learn English.

>> No.691686

I never thought it was necessary to learn French, at least the ability to speak it. Considering the second most popular language used on the web is French it seems sufficient to keep it to the ability to write and write in it.

>> No.691719

It also depends on whether or not the student themsleves wants to learn a language. I'm taking spanish right now and I honestly want to learn the language. I've only taken the class for three years now but am now capable of holding basic conversations while my friends, who have taken spanish for nearly five years, can't hold a conversation worth crap.

>> No.691741

>>691719

You WANT to learn Spanish? What the hell is wrong with you?

>> No.691747

>>691741
I'm one of those crazy people that hopes to be fluent in many different languages... also doesn't hurt since we're surrounded by the fucking language all the time.

>> No.691758

>>691747

The first part's not crazy at all. I'd love to learn quite a variety of languages. But fucking SPANISH? Not for all the money in the world.

>> No.691784

>>691758
Well it has been tough... it's such an inventive language (sarcasm), just add an o to the end of everything. I'm just tired of being surrounded by spics who can't speak english. Pluss it's the only language offered at my school. =(

>> No.691790

>>691719
Spanish from where? depending on the country the way they talk is different. Believe me, english is easy mode compared to spanish so good luck.

>> No.691803

>>691758
¿Que pasa? ¿Demasiado complicado para ti?

>> No.692343

English is one of the hardest languages to learn.

>> No.692655

>>691668
>I think the US is just more willing to flunk a student.
I hope not for their sakes. Grade inflation is terrible in the U.S. high schools. Graduating means nothing.

>> No.692681
File: 14 KB, 319x475, 1211784012181.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
692681

y halo

>> No.692687

>>691803
``¿" is reason enough alone

>> No.692688

>>692343
haha, oh wow.
This language is easy, not even nearly as many rules as in spanish.

>>691758
Learning a language is always good for personal growth, but honestly, there's little to no advantage you can gain from learning spanish.
Learning english, however, this opens opportunities everywhere.

>>691784
I bet you have a thick accent. I'm tired of american's who can't pronounce right in spanish...

>> No.692697

>>691803

Fuck, I laughed.

>> No.692720

>>691250

It's like this because at one point (in some cases hundreds of years ago) words were actually pronounced the way they are spelled. However, since language is dynamic (especially spoken language) the pronunciations of words changes over time. Once dictionaries began to codify the spelling of words the spelling never changed regardless of how the pronunciation did. So thus we end up with words like "knight" which is pronounced like "night" even though 400+ years ago the k was pronounced.

>> No.692734

>>692688
>I bet you have a thick accent. I'm tired of american's who can't pronounce right in spanish...

LOL. You do realize this is something everyone does when they try to speak in a language that isn't their native one right? It isn't just Americans...

>> No.692768

>>692734
not as heavy as americans. Hell, even my accent is gone; at least that's what the american I worked for as a translator said.

Seriously now, I understand the alphabet pronunciation switch can be hard, but most of the time it just feels as if they are not even bothering.

>> No.692770

>>692734
Not really, i have no problems talking in portuguese, spanish, english or jap.

It´s mostly because english native speakers have a weird pronounciation system.

>> No.692775

>>692768
I´m kind of dissapointed of you. you used to be someone i admired, yo know?

>> No.692797

>>692720

Not to mention both night and knight are actually pronounced nait. ^^

In case anyone cares, Wiki has a decent article about this stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_vowel_shift

>> No.692807

>>692768

That's the thing. Americans tend to be lazy fuckers that only go for the "just barely finished" mark.

Still, I still find it fucking hard to trail my r's no matter how much I try it.

>> No.692834

>>692807
I'm not American, but I've met tons of lazy British fucks that don't even bother to get rid of their awful accent.

>> No.692848

The proper indefinite article to use before a word is 'a' for consonants and 'an' for vowels. Except when the vowel sounds like a consonant, as in the case of 'u', 'eu', etc.

Take THAT foreigners.

>> No.692851

I find it pretentious that people try to actually fully enunciate foreign words as more often than not, they go way overboard and it sounds like you're just being a dick.

>> No.692849

>>692834

Ahh. Maybe I should fix my post.

>Humans tend to be lazy fuckers that only go for the "just barely finished" mark.

>> No.692904

>>692797
>nait
I'd pronounce that the same as nate.
I think you mean nye-eat.

>> No.692953

>>692851

I usually mispronounce words in english when surrounded by people who understand it at an intermediate level so I won't sound like a prick.

>>692343

Troll, fuera de la pronunciacion, hasta la jerga de uso corriente en ingles es facil de aprender.

I'd like to see you find the meaning of:

Gato no te hagas el bardero que te picoteo bien piola, siome.

>> No.692967

>>691038
英語と日本語は何から何まで徹底的に違うからさ。

>> No.693001

>>692967
SOU NAN DES KARR?

>> No.693014

>>692967
Shouldn't you be using 何時から何時まで? I don't autorecnognise the kanji after まで though, but if you're using time, without the 時 it just reads odd.

>> No.693035

>>693014
え？　「何から何まで」って言うのは英語で言うと「everything」だよ。

>> No.693050

>>693035
literally 'from whatever to whatever'. ああ、分かります。

>> No.693090

>>692967
Sorry for nitpicking, but
>英語と日本語では

>> No.693123

>>693090
You know, his sentence is also correct.

>> No.693146

None. Engrish is fucking engrish because it's done by japs who does'nt know english or spoken by voice actors while they read the text broken into japanese characters, who does'nt know english either.

>> No.693192

>>693123
Grammatically correct. But their meanings are slightly different. It'd be too pedantic so I don't want to explain the difference here.

If you want me to nitpick more, 徹底的に違う sounds stupid. It should be 根本的に違う, 根本から異なる or the like. 徹底的 is used when someone completely "does" something.

>> No.693235

>>693192
As a jap, I'd like to say "If you want me to nitpick more, 徹底的に違う sounds stupid" isn't really true. In normal non-academic situations you can pretty much use anything. 　

>> No.693247

>>693192
ちょｗ　そんなんどうでもいいっしょｗｗ

>> No.693270

>>693247
すまんなｗ　暑くて機嫌わるかったんだｗｗ　許して^^

>> No.693282

>>693270
ってか、日本人？それともすごく日本語のうまい外国人さん？

>> No.693294

>>692688
English is seriously one of the most illogical languages ever conceived by man. Things like the use of slang would be very difficult to grasp, especially in English, like how to use the word 'fuck' in the middle of a word and make it sound ok. Like you say "unbe-fuckin-leavable" not "unbeleave-fuckin-able".

>> No.693302

english is one of the most fucked up languages in the world, and japanese is comparitively easy to learn. the problem is in english SPEAKING (yes, speaking and writing are two very different systems and those who think otherwise need to GO BACK TO LINGUISTICS CLASS) and all the slang that americans and other english speaking countries have developed, and all the exceptions to the rules

>> No.693303

Because of their "Why should I learn stupid gaijin language?" mindset.

>> No.693305

>>693294
>"unbe-fuckin-leavable"

I'd cackle at you if you said "unbe-fuckin-leavable," that's just silly. Try "un-fuckin'-believable."

>> No.693310

>>693303

The same exact mindset we had back in our middle school days with Spanish. And they're still worthless classes to me.

>> No.693313

>>693282
Why do you even ask that when we're on an anonymous board? It doesn't matter.

>> No.693316

>>693305
Fuck, you're right. How about "in-fuckin'-credible" instead of "incred-fuckin'-ible"

>> No.693330

かなり言語体系が違うから日本語は習得が難しいんじゃないかな　と彼は申
しております
文章一つ取っても表意文字と表音文字が混じっているうえに語尾にいろいろ
くっつけたり単語や文の構成を崩しても前後の文脈である程度通じるファ
ジーな言語である、と。

>> No.693346

>>693294
99.99% of the time, you just put "fuck" in between the prefix and the root word.

>> No.693357

>>693330
It's Japan's culture that allows ambiguity in their language. You can speak in a rigorously logical way without leaving any ambiguity as in mathematical proof. You may argue the language is part of the culture though...

>> No.693359

Resident linguist anon here.
Guys, seriously. You can bitch all you want about Japanese being fucked up, but the only difficult part about is syntax. Yeah, the Japs like their sentences to have just the right amount of clauses to make a gaijin's brain boil. Otherwise, Japanese grammar is pretty simple and takes a year to learn at most, if you put in some effort.
English, on the other hand, is fucked up in every possible sense. The only good thing about English is the tenses, and even that is fucked up.

>> No.693362

>>693330
それもあるけどさ、日本の学校で覚える英語って話せるようになるって言う
よりテストにうかるための教え方だよね。

>> No.693365
File: 43 KB, 704x402, 1211792301900.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
693365

>>693330

>> No.693375

>>693359
The main thing I hate about Japanese is knowing when to use plain/polite style is certain grammatical patterns, or the fact that you can use only certain particles attached to certain words or phrases. And then the whole bit about adding onto words until they're so many syllables long: 食べられなかったら。

>> No.693393

>>693359
So, do you think you can learn actual usages of words, phrases and whatnot in Japanese in a year or so? I doubt that. Even native speakers take like 10 years or even more to acquire their first languages. It's ridiculous to think someone can learn a completely different language that doesn't share the origin with his/her first language in several years.

>> No.693410

>>693346
>>693305
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unbefuckinglievable

>> No.693421

>>693375

>>BAWWWWW, they want me to polite to my superiors

>>the whole bit about adding onto words until they're so many syllables long

That's not Japanese. That's about ANY synthetic language in the world. And honestly, russian is probably the worst in that regard. Incidentally, I know only two non-native speakers of russian who have mastered its inflection system and they're both Japanese.

>>693393

I was only talking about grammar. See, learning grammar involves learning to understand the underlying structure. Learning "usages of words" only requires memory and practice.

>> No.693435

Oh, also:

>>It's ridiculous to think someone can learn a completely different language that doesn't share the origin with his/her first language in several years.

What the hell is wrong with you english-speakers? There was a guy in this thread who can hold "basic conversation" in Spanish after three years. This is just... really retarded. A friend of mine could speak and write simple texts in Spanish after nine months of class. I was perfectly able to read Japanese after 1,5 years of class and hold normal conversations with native speakers after 2 years. I'm really starting to think that having english as your native language somehow makes you retarded when it comes to learning other languages.

>> No.693443

>>693421
I'm >>693375. You took what I said out context. I meant like in the form Verb+時 you have to use the plain form (呼ぶ時...) not the polite form (呼びます時). There's tons of patterns where you can only use one or the other and not sound retarded.

>> No.693455

>>693421
Don't you think people say a language is fucked up when word usages seem so random it's difficult to learn?

>> No.693458

>>693435
That's only because learning English is so damn hard; most of the time even native speakers can't use the words 'well' or 'good' correctly in a sentence.

>> No.693478

>>693455

What part of Japanese word usage is random?

>> No.693474

>>693443

No, it's actually pretty simple. If the verb is a predicate, then the polite form is to be used when the situation requires it. Note also that the verbs in attributive clauses (if I can call them that when talking about Japanese, I'm not quite sure) are NOT predicates.

>> No.693480

>>693435
I'm >>693393 and >>693455, and my first language is Japanese. Don't know if the said anon's Spanish is horrible, but still I believe acquiring a foreign language is time-consuming and requires at least more than you took for your first language.

>> No.693484

>>693478
See >>693192. Even a native speaker made an error in the usage of 徹底的.

>> No.693490

>>693480

It is, but three years is still way too long. He's probably just doing it wrong, though.

>> No.693495

>>693484
ミスじゃねぇよ。

>> No.693509

>>693484

First, it wasn't an error.
Second, English speakers fuck up PRONOUNS - you're\your, they're\their. Pronouns, dude.

>> No.693519

>>693495
まだいたのかよw　話し言葉だからなんでもいいっての一理あるけど、書き
言葉で「徹底的に違う」って使うとアホに見えるよ。行動とか動作に対して
しか使わない言葉だからな。

>> No.693523

>>693509

But a lot of English speakers (Americans) are fucking retarded. I think it has less to do with the weakness of the language and more to do with its users.

>> No.693526

>>693509
Not pronouns so much as contractions.

>> No.693530

>>693490
Not everyone is able to dedicate enough time, and some school systems move through material slower than others.

>> No.693524

Kids in my English speaking nation generally don't get over sounding retarded until they're 20-25. If you consider that they've been learning their language for all of their 20 years, then one shouldn't be too worried if after 10 years they still sound like retards in their second language.

>> No.693525

>>693509
I think spelling is generally difficult more in English though due to our fucked up pronunciation of words.

>> No.693532

>>693523
Americans aren't any more stupid than the rest of the world, it's just fashionable to say so.

>> No.693542

>>693519
アホって言うなｗ

>> No.693545

>>693524
That's what I really wanted to say in >>693393. Thanks anon.

>>693495
>>693509
広辞苑でも引いてみるといいよ。どうして「部屋を徹底的にきれいにする」
はOKで、「部屋が徹底的にきれい」がアホにきこえるかがわかると思うよ
。

>> No.693547

>>693542
ごめん... 関西では馬鹿って言われた方が傷つくんだ;_;

>> No.693550

>>693523

Well, native speakers are the ones responsible for the evolution of the language, so we can't really separate one from the other.

>>693530

You're doing it wrong. You don't need to hold yourself back if the language course in your school is slow. YOU are learning the language, so it's up to you to decide the pace. And seriously, unless you're a retard, three years is just too long - you can do much better.

>>693532

They are, actually. Not to say there aren't intelligent americans, but the average american is so damn, ignorant, naive and hypocritical they just make RAGE. This shit is really part of the culture and they need to do something about it.

>> No.693569

>>693545
だ～か～ら、お前がいってることは分かるって。
説明せんでいいｗ

>> No.693571

>>693550
>the average american is so damn, ignorant, naive and hypocritical they just make RAGE.

But the average Japanese is so damn, ignorant, naive and hypocritical, but they don't rage because they don't want to be shunned. Is it any smarter?

>> No.693582

>>693550
>but the average american is so damn, ignorant, naive and hypocritical they just make RAGE

this is true of any nation.

where do you live and do you have any traveling experiences?

>> No.693581

>>693569
ところで日本に住んでる？今日暑くない？

>> No.693585

>>693571
No, but it's considerably easier to get along with.
I think we can agree that the average person from ANYWHERE is a douchebag.

>> No.693594

>>693571

I don't mind people possessing negative traits as long as they don't flaunt them and\or require that other people be that way too. In that regard the Japanese are superior to the Americans. And I'm not joking, I'm deadly serious. I fucking hate the word "should" because of the way it's used by americans.

>> No.693595

>>693585
Well, it's actually more like, you're the sheltered douchebag if you can't get along with the average person.

>> No.693603

>>693581
いや、俺はカリフォルニヤのオレンジカウンティ。　今週は毎日１５℃ぐら
いでめっちゃ寒い。(´；ω；`)

>> No.693612

>>693595

I'd rather be the sheltered douchebag than the loud, overbearing douchebag.

>> No.693618

>>693603
そうかぁ。こっちは梅雨がはじまりそうでムシムシしてるよ;_;

>> No.693625

>>693595
Sheltered? How do you figure?

And yeah, I'd rather be the guy who goes unnoticed than te guy who pisses everyone off.

>> No.693635

>>693618
日本はクソ暑くなるしその上に湿気も加わって夏どか蒸しパン状態だもんな
。　大変ｘ２．

>> No.693660

>>693569
>だ～か～ら

Please don't talk like an anime character. It's embarassing.

>> No.693669

>>693612
>>693625
While you're sitting over there silently raging to yourself as Average Joe and Average Bob have a conversation, Average Tom, Dick, and Harry are not silently raging to themselves and going about their business. While you act like a teenager who's embarrassed by his parents acting like normal people.

Most people aren't bothered by normal, if you are, you need to grow up.

>> No.693675

>>693660
irony^

>> No.693678

>>693635
夕立で雷がなりはじめたよ…　そろそろPC落とすとするかね。

>> No.693688

>>693669
I'm afraid both anons you're referring to already left this thread while you're composing your precious post.

>> No.693695

>>693678
バイバイ

>> No.693700

>>693688
darn!

>> No.693707

>>693582

I've been to moonland, and it's exceptionally easier to get along with people there. Most Americans just pisses me off now after having went there to feel the difference in manners and consideration. Although I don't look foreign in Japan, so I can't speak on behalf of whities.

>> No.693712

How about those nips learn a REAL language instead? Like german.

>> No.693719

>>693695
ばいばい

>> No.693735

>>693719
売買

>> No.693734

This thread is awesome. I'd like to add that counting stuff in japanese is retarded. Why the fuck would you need different ways of counting things with different shapes and forms? Fuck that shit. I'll just learn counting general objects.

>> No.693741

>>693712
Grammatically, they're similar.

>> No.693747

>>693669

I'm not "bothered" by idiots. Which doesn't mean I have to like them.

>> No.693755

かのこのこのこのこねこのかのこのけ

>> No.693754

Every time there's one of these threads there are people that come in here saying English is hard because the spelling or the associated pronunciation makes no sense.

I was going somewhere with this... Anyways my point is, do these people have enough experience with foreign languages to make such judgments? I don't find English spelling nor remembering the pronunciation of words harder than when using other languages so this is confusing to me. Do you think spelling English properly is hard?

>> No.693759

>>693754

Is English your first language?

>> No.693771

>>693759
no

>> No.693779

>>693754

It's not hard for someone fluent in the language, but compare it to any other language and English spelling rules just don't make any sense. English lacks a coherent morphological system, thus it can't adequately adapt loanwords.

>> No.693786

>>693755

I lol'd

>> No.693830

>>693754
1) English is made up of dozens of many different languages, which keeps that languages spelling artifacts, but loses its' pronunciation.

2) There's no standard english, and speaking "properly" is considered rude in every situation.

tl;dr: "formal english" sounds rude. casual english is made of norse and moonshine

>> No.693843

English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

>> No.693846

>>693779
>but compare it to any other language and English spelling rules just don't make any sense.
OK let's try comparing it to French. Do they even have spelling rules in French? Isn't it all rote memorization?

>>693830
>tl;dr: "formal english" sounds rude. casual english is made of norse and moonshine
Hmm I'm a little confused, I was talking about spelling mostly, not conversation. What's that about being rude?

>> No.693850

>>693846
>OK let's try comparing it to French. Do they even have spelling rules in French? Isn't it all rote memorization?
Where do you get that from? Of course there are spelling rules in French.

>> No.693875

>>693850
Oh really. I can't think of any though.
I can think of common patterns, but that doesn't make it more rational than English, does it now?

>> No.693899

>>693771
Then, in learning the language, did you come to an understanding of why laugh and cough are pronounced different than though and dough, which are different than thought and bought? How would you have pronounced hiccough, if you had come across it in an old book? You'd have no idea that it was pronounced "hiccup," I'd bet. What about a word like mnemonic? Pterodactyl? Epitome? Sure, you could say that there are exceptions to any rule, but coming from a language where every syllable letter-pair is pronounced the same exact way any time you see it, it's not exactly a far stretch to figure English pronunciation would be difficult.

>> No.693905

>>693846
>Do they even have spelling rules in French? Isn't it all rote memorization?
By that I assume you mean, are there any pronunciation rules. Any word you choose to say could be spelled 10 different ways, it's about knowing which where. Now, pronunciation is a different matter. Sure, things like the "er" ending on verbs is inexplicably an "ay" sound, but at least you know if it's an infinitive, it's "par-lay" not "par-lor".

>> No.693914

>>693846
regarding being rude: if a native english speaker were to talk like you type, they would sound like an asshole in basically every possible setting

as for the spelling comment, most of our words come from a different language. the spelling is retained, but the pronunciation is lost, and most people dont even KNOW what language a word comes from, so it's hard to know which languages spelling system to apply.

in contrast: in japanese, katakana lets us know a word is foreign (or a sound effect, or whatever), but it's still written & pronounced phonetically. in english however, we have words like knot (german), naught (old english), phlegm (greek), sphere (latin?), and many words that use different spelling systems from their respective countries of origin, but all sharing an "invented" english pronunciation that doesn't reflect the original pronunciation OR the spelling of the word.

tl;dr, we steal words, invent a new pronunciation, and keep the crazy "ouis"/"yer"/"gn"/"kn" spelling quirks

>> No.693928

>>693914
Most Japanese words are of Chinese origin.

>> No.693942

From my experience correcting research papers by university researchers:
They have trouble choosing when to use an indefinite or definite article, where to use a plural, etc, since these are missing from their own language.

>> No.693964

>tl;dr: "formal english" sounds rude.

I'd have said more sarcastic than out and out rude, and honestly, if it's obvious that the speaker is foreign, then were (the english) perfectly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

>casual english is made of norse and moonshine

...and latin, and italian, and norman, and saxon, and celtic...

Remember, the last time england was successfully invaded was 1066 by the Normans, but before that just about anyone with a boat and set of sharpened sticks could roll us over.
But after Bill the bastard took over the place, we became a fucking international POWERHOUSE that lasted until WW2.

Also, whilst learning a completely new alphabet is never easy, I think that learning english is probably the easiest of all european languages at least.
As a rule we don't have any symbols unique to our own language like the Germans Umulaut or that spanish upside down question and explaination marks. We don't split our verbs up and place the sentence inside them like some sort of verbal sourkraut as the germans do. We don't applie male/female qualities to inanimate objects like tables or buildings, and our sentence structure is pretty easy to understand once you get the basics down: verb phrase + noun phrase.

Now, learning a new language is never 'easy' for most normal people, but I'd have to say that english is probably one of the easier ones to learn.

>> No.693973

>>693899

Those 3 last words you mentioned are derived from greek and latin, so it isn't so weird that they don't follow the general pattern of english pronounciation.

>> No.693998

>>693964
being rolled over is one thing, but as an international powerhouse, you brought a lot of words back from distant countries. most countries have borrowed some words from other countries, but they butchered the spelling in the process to make things easier, or just made up a new word.

as a followup to the rude thing, as an american, if someone is speaking "proper english" to me and isn't a foreigner and doens't have a british accent, the connotation is "i can talk properly and you can't, so i'm smarter than you and therefore my opinions are better than yours, which means you're obviously wrong and i'm right"

that being the case, the point of my statement was responding to the "why do people learning english think that spelling properly is difficult" was to point out that words are pronounced differently person to person, and most learning is done orally.

>> No.694003

English is simple. Elevens just don't care for it enough to learn it properly.

>> No.694005

>>I'd have to say that english is probably one of the easier ones to learn.
i think most multilinguistic people who had to learn english at some point would disagree with you.

>> No.694015

>>694005

You're taking that out of context. Learning a new language is always going to be difficult. Doubly so if you aren't even using an alphabet you are familiar with, and I said as much at least twice in my post.

I just posited that it would be easier to learn than say German or Russian, and as european languages go, is probably one of the easier ones.

>> No.695362

i won't let this die

>>
Reply to thread [?]Don't expect anything heroic. Your post will not be uploaded to the original board.
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Action