/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

Japanese language general!

Who else of you is actually learning Japanese? I'll be taking the JLPT level N4 this year.

Maybe someone will even be able to answer my question - what's the difference between 明かり and 光? Is 明かり an artificial light like from a lamp and 光 a natural light source or is there more to it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391509
No, not at all. Moonlight and sunlight can be called tsukiakari and hiakari respectively, so that doesn't matter at all. In my opinion, akari is more like -rays- of light, and hikari is light itself.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391514

Ah, I see. I only knew the expression 月光 for moonlight, and since that's written with the Kanji for Hikari too, I thought that was the difference.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

bump. None of you learning Japanese?

[Anonymous No.]

I am. Have you been reading raw manga or anything to practice? I'm working through Yotsuba&! and need a change of pace

[Anonymous No.]

Passed the old level 2 a couple years ago, should probably begin grinding for the N1 but I've got no motivation, ANKI cards keep accumulating

[Anonymous No.]

>implying anyone of us has the motivation to learn a shitty and useless language
no, this board is for touhou only

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391560

I've got a couple of Doraemon learning Mangas from my girlfriend, but haven't been reading them much. I'm mostly working through Shin Nihongo no Kiso's Kanji books 1 and 2.

>>6391568

Nice. What's your motivation? Do you use Japanese in your work environment or is it just for being able to enjoy manga/anime/games in Japanese?

[Anonymous No.]

I'm working on it. Using Mnemosyne flash card program and using Tagaini Jisho to pull Kanji from the JLPT list so I can take the first test hopefully within the next few months. I know all the kana, basic grammar (particles and conjugation) and about 55 Kanji.

[Anonymous No.]

Been a while since I posted this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391574
It's my major. in b4 >wasted major lololol
I'm quite aware of it by myself. Thing is, at least when you didn't get 80% or more of a sentence you knew you had to get better.
Now as long as I have a dictionary I can understand most things, all that's left is grinding the vocabulary and kanji, and it's pretty tedious.

[Anonymous No.]

can anyone tell me what this means?

めんどい

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391593
An annoyance, something annoying.

[Anonymous No.]

Passed JLPT1?
You don't know SHIT about Japanese language.

Actually, you do know shit. Shit no one cares about.

[Anonymous No.]

Sure I do, but instead of taking some pointless exams I'll be using my moonspeak skills to play their games and read manga.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391588

Yeah I was under the impression that as soon you had reached level 2 (or ~N3 now), dedicated learning would become quite tedious. It would probably better if you really lived in a Japanese environment or consume a lot of Japanese media, like news, blogs, etc. to boost up your knowledge of the language.

I don't get why people say wasted major. My girlfriend wants to study Japanology (she was born in Japan, is fluent in the language itself but barely knows anything about Kanji, Keigo etc.). You can do a lot of stuff with it, like translator, work for ambassies, and so on. There are a lot of opportunities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391601
No one is saying JLPT 1 is the end of everything. But it's needed if you're going to get a job involving japanese at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391600
Thanks :\

[Anonymous No.]

I'm looking to practice/learn so I need some easy VNs to start grinding through. Anybody have suggestions?

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391584

Wow, congratulations!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391509
Reported. Fuck off weeaboo.

[Anonymous No.]

Like most on /jp/ I have half-assed it over the years. I can struggle through most doujinshi if I feel like hitting up the dictionary every other minute. It's incredibly difficult to keep up the motivation though, especially when you could just be F5'ing /jp/ instead.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391602

Enjoy speaking like a 12 year old girl.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm currently doing Pimsleuer II Lesson 25
and whenever they say dou iu imi desu it sounds like they say to iu imi desu but that doesn't make sense to me.

So does anyone have a clue?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391614
Who the fuck would you need to use this useless language to speak to, weeaboo?

[Anonymous No.]

I was thinking about starting to learn it, but I don't even know where to start.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391617

If they ask "dou iiu imi desu ka?" it means "What's the meaning of this?"
I don't think there's an expression like "tou iiu imi desu (ka)". The closest thing I can imagine is "... to iimasu." ("... he/she says.")

[Anonymous No.]

I'm trying to learn, not really gotten far though. Only about 300 kanji, can understand most sentences with the help of a dictionary (or rather, rikaichan).
Reading VNs with agth to get a better feel for the language while grinding kanji/vocab at the moment.

Maybe someone can answer me this:
I've ran into the following phrase a few days ago
切なげな声
and can't really seem to find a proper translation concerning 切なげ. I think it probably means "painful" in that context, from 切ない, but I have no idea how it ends up like this, rikaichan and other dictionaries haven't really been much of a help.
Any insight?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391584
Cool, good job.

Also lol at the faggots posting on /jp/ being all jelly and calling you a weeaboo

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391620
I forgot to mention that I'm debating between Russian and Japanese, but that doesn't really matter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391601
I should post this more often, the jelly reactions are pretty amusing.

[Anonymous No.]

Go back to /a/. Most of you.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391628

I think I know an equivalent in German, but not in English. If you're German, or know it, by chance, I think "eine schneidende Stimme" is an appropriate translation.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391637

grating voice

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391637
Okay, thanks. Any hint on how this conjugates grammatically? Or why no dictionary was able to help me on it?

[Anonymous No.]

Fuck off, meido.
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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391636
How is this /a/ at all?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391625
Thanks I saw my exact question here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071122140723AAM9N9l
He writes
----
"Nan to iu imi desu ka" is correct.

You can say "What does it mean?" in Japanese like;

"Douiu imi desu ka?"
"Don na imi desu ka?"
----

So what the fuck is going on now, are both correct or what?

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous of Croatia !na1byG1GU. No.]

If you say weeaboo backwards it kinds sounds like booyeah :D :D :D

BOOWEEA!

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

buttdevastated.jpg

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391637
切ない hat nichts mit 切る zu tun, du Vollpfosten.

-げ can be put at the end of i-adjectives to mean something like "look/ sound etc. like" or "showing signs of".

切なげ would be "full of pain" in that context.

[Anonymous No.]

the jelly and anusbleed in this thread is amazing

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391654

Both are correct. I'm not sure if I can explain the difference, it's very subtle I guess.

Dou iu imi desu ka? <-> What is the meaning of this?
Donna imi desu ka? <-> What kind of meaning is this?

I think that's as close of an equivalent I can think of. The "donna" is asking for the nature of things, so "What kind of" is a good translation.

Anyone with a better knowledge correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391509
>>>/lang/

Why are you faggots blind to the existence of this board?

[Anonymous No.]

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[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391669

Wenn du lesen könntest, habe ich erwähnt, dass ich erst den N4 Test schreibe. Ich hab nie behauptet, der ultimative Guru zu sein.

Reading comprehension much?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391654
Oh I'm an idiot, it's either　何と言ういみですか　or　如何言ういみですか

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391648
>>6391628
There are stipplets in dialects that, as a whole, really don't fucking matter. As long as the suffix isn't explicitly something you'd find in a dictionary, you can usually ignore it, provided you know the corresponding common grammar. Putting "-げ" at the end of a negative "-ない" in place of "い" is a lot like "-らしい", "-sou" or "-みたい".

The only other example I can think of off the top of my head that appears often is the negative "-zu". This usually isn't in dictionaries, either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391669
Ah, thanks a lot. I thought that cutting probably wasn't too adequate, seeing as there's a lot of other examples if you google for the phrase.
(Only problem is they kind of _can_ work with "cut" if you look at them the right (wrong) way)

Also, no sense in getting mean now,
and please keep this in english, guys.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

Guys http://www.livemocha.com/

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

ＷＥＥＡＢＯＯ
ＷＥＥＡＢＯＯ
ＷＥＥＡＢＯＯ
ＷＥＥＡＢＯＯ

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391678
>如何
Holy shit, I've never seen kanji for that.

[Anonymous No.]

WEEABOO
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[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391674
Dann gibt keine Antwort als ob du wüsstest worum es geht. Da hätte zumindest ein "ich mir zwar nicht sicher, aber..." drangehört.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391694

To quote myself
>"I think ...."

Herp derp.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391688
It's probably not used is it, you don't have to learn a lot of grammatical exceptions in this language but things like that are really ffffffffff

[Anonymous No.]

WEEABOO
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[Anonymous No.]

http://vocaroo.com/?media=vSl2pcNlJg6DqeUXO

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391700
Wow is this fun for you? You are a huge nerd.

[Anonymous No.]

WEEABOO
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[ No.]

>>6391703
Oh god. The irony of that statement is truly staggering.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391632
If it helps you deal with the realization of the time wasted learning useless stuff for the sole purpose of passing the test, go ahead.

[Anonymous No.]

WEEABOO
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[Anonymous No.]

>wake up
>see this thread
>repor.t it and hide
>go clean the kitchen
>come back
>64 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
>WEEABOOS ERRRYWHEEEREE
/jp/ so bad

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391711
Useless stuff = the Japanese language?

[ No.]

>>6391720
Unless you actually plan on moving there and living there (in which case you're so far gone it's pathetic), yes.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391711
How is it useless if he enjoys learning it. Different people have different aspirations. Learning something you like is never useless.

You are probably a giant faggot who can't think for himself and lets others decide what you do with your life.

Good thing I don't have to deal with you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391722
/jp/ is bad. Tune in at 11 for more bombastic news.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391723
I don't even understand how someone can visit /jp/ and think learning japanese is useless.
All of the hobbies this board is about get more interesting if you can actually understand moon, even if you're just here for the touhoes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391729
Fuck off, /jp/ is not bad. However, a couple of retards that insist on spamming threads across the boards make it look like it's a bad board. All other Anonymous are pissed, while like 4-5 people ruin the thing for everyone else. Goddamnit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391722
So what is this board about again you self loathing idiot?

[Anonymous No.]

What's with all these fucktards from /b/ here?

>>6391722
>>6391723
Buttangered much?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391733
TOUHOU. ONLY.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

Bored teenager status:
[X] Successful troll

[Anonymous No.]

Japanese learner here. This board is pure shit, I'm never coming back. You can have more serious discussions on /b/ and that's saying something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391711
See, you don't know what you are talking about. You do not need anything "useless" for the test. The grammar you need to learn is used a lot in written Japanese targetted at a mature audience, like VNs for example (I heard /jp/ actually likes those, you know).

If doing something you enjoy is wasted time for you I really do not understand why you would post on a board about Touhou and VNs.

Now spam WEEABOO WEEABOO to the thread some more, that is not a waste of time and energy at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391741
Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391733
>>6391737
>>6391738
No, you fuck off. /jp/ was never and probably never will be about Japan itself. We (yes, I speak as a whole) hate it, just some weeaboos from /b/ or /a/ come over from time to time thinking that they can have a cultural discussion about that shitty language thinking they can move there and live the dream. Japan is shit, and I can tell you that from my own experience because I was a weeaboo myself and got HUGE disappointed with that shitland.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391753
Oh, so you've been hurt before and need to take it out on others, that explains it. Cute.
No one here thinks japan is awesome, we just like to enjoy the media this board is for without being tied to lazy translators.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391753
>We (yes, I speak as a whole)
I don't know when you showed up kid but you're dumb, I mean like real dumb, for reals. Why don't you take up a trip and become the next Scandaroon? You could live in infamy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391746
Meido is a weeaboo, that's known for ages. I'm gonna keep spamming, because being a neet has so many forms of entertainment.
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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391753
>We (yes, I speak as a whole) hate it
Oh wow, when is the vocal minority considered as the whole.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391753
Are you fucking retarded? NO ONE here's talking about Japan. We are talking about japanese which is very important part on enjoying our hobbies. I don't support thousands of translation threads, but I don't see the evil on a single thread to exchange tips and study guides.
Enjoy your sore butt and stop being a retard.

[Anonymous No.]

[ No.]

>>6391735
Why would I be "buttangered" that you're being a relentless faggot?

Personally, I find the sad lives of all your weeaboos hilarious. "sugoi kawaii desu ne ichi ni san hay guys i know japaneze i going to move to japan right after i get done fapping to mah anime and hentai and fucking my waifu blow up doll."

Seriously, do continue. I'm loving this.

[Anonymous No.]

WEEABOO
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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391768
>all your weeaboos
>your
>mvq moron can't spell since so buttdamaged and assraging

[Anonymous No.]

fuck off already, meido
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[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391753
>We, /jp/, hate Japan

Hahaha, wtf am I reading. That's like saying /v/ hates videogames.
Oh wait, actually they do. Let me rephrase that: That's like saying /a/ hates anime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391760
japan aint bad
i think its silly that /jp/ (and /a/) feel the need to act like they hate japan just so they aren't associated with high school japanophiles

[Anonymous No.]

Learning Japanese != Japanophile
It's not like I learned English because I'm an Ameriboo/English-cocksuckers or something, Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous No.]

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[ロリあき No.]

All I have to say is having learned Japanese, I don't have to wait for stupid translations of ANYTHING. This has more than made it worth my time.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm actually a lazy translator myself, and learning the finer points of the japanese grammar (like what was needed for the 1kyu) did obviously help me making better translations.

I don't expect anyone on /jp/ to be especially grateful to us who translate stuff for you, but I guess all of us translators would appreciate not being downright hated.

[ No.]

Wow. The fucktarded mods are actually deleting posts.

They must be getting butthurt too.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391786

You must be one of the few decent ones then. I was actually astonished to see that you've got the 1kyu. Do you do fansubs or do you translate stuff for a living? If it's the former, there should be way more of you. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391786
Trust me, we appreciate it. We may not voice it, but we DEFINITELY do.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6391790

Oh wait, wrong pic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391786
I don't think anyone hates translators, just look how people flock to Hong when he posts one of his releases, same with Hox on /a/ back when he still.. existed.
If I ever get to that level I'll probably try my hand at translating a few doujinshi here and there myself, anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

Let me put a movie to watch meanwhile, meido.
Next round in 3mins.
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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391786
just wondering, what grammar do you actually need to know for 1kyuu that you don't pick up reading decent VNs?

[Anonymous No.]

I'm back, thanks for waiting. TADAIMA
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[Anonymous No.]

>>6391795
hox still exists

[Anonymous No.]

>Hong
>translator

Isn't he "just" an editor?

[Anonymous No.]

Bump. のワの

[Anonymous No.]

Not in the form he did back then, though, right? I know he still translated, I didn't want it to sound like he died or something. But last thing I heard he retired from posting (with his trip). That was months ago though, so what do I know.

[Anonymous No.]

>did obviously help me making better translations.
Now if only you knew English grammar.
I kid, I kid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391790
>>6391794
And you fucking faggots were saying that it's not /a/ faggotry. Christ.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391812
I saw him posting in /a/ 1 or 2 days ago, arguing with some idiot in a Detective Conan thread.
>>6391810
Yeah, just an editor, DamageDesu is the translator, but DamageDesu hardly posts on /jp/ with the trip (only in EFZ threads, but they are dead now)

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391819
Oh okay, didn't know. Honestly don't really care though. Fact is, he's the one posting the translations here (and being helpful with the huge doujinshi library in his head) and people like him for it. Just wanted to give examples on how people appreciate translators.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391790
I only did manga and games so far.

>>6391797
None really, if you do understand everything they say in the VN. I found I understood Umineko for example way better after studying for the 1kyu.

[Anonymous No.]

Hey spammer, feeling tired already man?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391814
Yeah well, I'm not a native speaker of English. I always get an editor to read over my translations to fix any mistakes in grammar or unnatural sounding sentences.

[Anonymous No.]

It's admirable that you guys take the effort to learn japanese. If I wasn't such a lazy piece of shit, I'd do it too.

[Anonymous No.]

Good translations are like 15% raw technical skill of translating the meaning, and 85% having a flair with the English language enough that you can embellish it into something natural-sounding and interesting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391840
If it isn't interesting when literally translated, doesn't that mean it isn't interesting in the original language? Making it interesting is a mistranslation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391834
I'm learning just so that I don't have to deal with the drama queens that translators are. Not having to wait for shit is just an added bonus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391867
Not really. You can't literally translate Japanese to English without making it sound horrible, and it's pretty easy to make stuff sound bland if you stick too closely to the original wording.

Still, I don't really agree with the percentages. If you take your average fansub for example, I think there's much more of a problem with people just guessing on the meaning of a sentence rather than having trouble rewriting it to sound interesting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391877
Fansub of anime is slightly different, because it is an animation. There is a lot more meaning behind the words in a static medium like manga or doujinshi, so it is more important that the meaning be expressed in a grand way, while conveying the emotion in the most impactful method. This does not always mean keeping to a direct translation, usually it means deviating from it even.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391867
I don't agree with rewriting much for this purpose either.

To an extent(there are some cultural factors that influence this), if basic words/phrases are repetitively used, for example, that should be kept in the translation.

>>6391877
Of course there is grammatical and idiomatic work to be done, but the basic content, thought patterns, and level of word usage should remain the same if possible. The guy is right in that something that is conceptually uninteresting, or written in an uninteresting way, would ideally be similarly uninteresting in English.

Of course, that happens all the time in professionally "translated" works, but that's because they're not being translated, they're being localized. I don't consider localization to be translation(although it includes translation).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391904
>Of course, you will often see professionally "translated" works not following this idea,
whoops, fixed

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391867

No, because Japanese and English are completely different languages and what might sound normal in one could sound stupid in the other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391959
Making it natural sounding is different from making it interesting.

[Anonymous No.]

Taking JLPT N1 in 32 days, will probably fail though. ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391979
Best of luck anyway. Did you try to take an old test under realistic conditions (time limits) at home before? That usually gives you a good idea of how likely you are to pass.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391988
Nah, I'm hugely busy with university work right now, so I'll just do my best on the day and see how it goes. No point trying to predict whether I'll pass or not.

I'm not really in a rush to pass, so I can always retake it next year. 1.5 years ago I had sub JLPT 4 level Japanese, so I'm proud of myself whether I pass or not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392004
Why didn't you take the N2 first then? I don't think I know of anyone who passed the 1kyu (which is slightly less difficult than the N1) with less than 6 years of learning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392030
6 years???

I can answer JLPT1 questions fine mostly. The kanji/vocab/grammar ones don't present many problems, but I'm not very fast at reading the long texts and sometimes the listening questions can trick you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392030

Oh, and I didn't take N2 because I didn't feel it'd stretch me much. I don't really need the qualification (I don't have any particular skills to make me employable overseas yet anyway), just the challenge.

[Anonymous No.]

I took the 1kyu after around 6-7 years, I might have done one year earlier, but not much more than that. Some people who had been learning for over 5 years and actually lived in Japan for a year (which I never did) took the test with me and failed.

So I'd generally assume around 5-6 years should be a good time if you put in a lot of work. If someone can do in significantly less time I'd be interested to hear about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392071
From what I've heard, plenty of chinese people cram for the test and pass level one in about a year.

I never found kanji to be a problem, so I don't think they have a great advantage really.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392030
I'm taking N1 in December, and I've studied for 4 years. If I can't pass, the test is fucked, 'cause I can speak and read on a native level very easily, and I know far beyond the Jouyou kanji that it's supposed to test.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392113
Chinese and Japanese are a lot more similar than Japanese and English (or German) though, and they have a much easier time with kanji too.

I might add the people I know who also took the test are not self-learners but majoring in Japanese, too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391672
/lang/ is not exactly the greatest board in existence.

That aside, how do you guys remember which pronunciation is kun and which is on?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392252
>That aside, how do you guys remember which pronunciation is kun and which is on?
this

[Anonymous No.]

Say i want to learn.

Where do i start?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392252
...what? I don't think I've ever actually had a problem with that.
Now that you mention it, it seems like I should, though.
With kunyomi you usually tie it to a meaning, whereas onyomi have no meanings. I guess that's it?

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6392252
>>6392263

Generally, On is used when the Kanji stands alone (ie. not in compound or with an ending string in hiragana) and Kun in compounds and combined with Hiragana.

Or the other way round, lol. For example: 月 = tsuki, 三月 = san-gatsu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392285
but what if I meant to write three moons?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392285
The other way around.
Onyomi are used in compounds usually, for example 外人 -> がいじん
With lots of exceptions though, so it's more a guideline than a rule.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392292
Then you would use a counter or mittsu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392285
I wasn't referring to how it should be used, rather, how i should keep track.
It's like this: I see a kanji, and it has one, maybe two, onyomi, and one kunyomi. How do i make myself remember which are the onyomi, and which is the kunyomi?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392303
but the writing would be still the same, how do I know that the original writer didn't mean to write "three months" instead of "three moons"

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392321
Context. Japanese uses it. A lot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392306
Generally onyomi are short and more "chinese sounding", like sen, ka, ku, etc
kunyomi is a lot more native sounding, so verbs, words, etc

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392306
Do it like I said in
>>6392277
When you learn kanji, tie a meaning to their kunyomi and memorize it. If you know a kunyomi and don't know what it means it's pretty much useless. You almost only ever really use onyomi when encountering a new compound and wondering how it _might_ be pronounced anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392342
Because I'd also remember the pronunciation of the jukugo anyway, right?

Would it make any sense to remember the kunyomi first and only the onyomi later when you're sure you've got the kunyomi right?

Pic related to thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392328
well, yeah, but still, if you had that line out of nowhere how would you translate it?

[Anonymous No.]

I just practiced kanji a lot by taking a list of their english meanings, then wrote the kanji and all the readings I learned, writing on in katakana and kun in hiragana. Works fine, there are a few instances where I confuse on and kun (you need to know those for the Kanken) but actual japanese people do too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392354
Well, if it's supposed to mean March it'd usually be written 3月 anyway, but... I don't know, really.

>>6392351
It might sound logical, yeah, I considered this myself actually, but most people (teachers) would tell you to learn all of them at once. I can't really think of many disadvantages other than not being able to read unknown compounds, but who knows. I'm neither a teacher nor even fluent in the language yet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392321
>>6392328
>>6392354
There's a big difference in writing between 三月, 三つの月, and 月三個.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392366
So far i've been gathering resources and learning my kana.
I can read hiragana almost as casual as latin letters, katakana pretty nicely when isolated, but when it's written by hand or in weird fonts it throws me off.

I've also learned the meaning of about 200 kanji, and the readings of about 120. Problem is, i used smart.fm so i've got no idea which reading it is. And even had you asked my the reading of 月 I wouldn't be able to tell you which is the kun and which is on (I would with this one, actually, but you get the gist)

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392351
You don't need to learn the on'yomi separately. Just learn any compounds associated with a kanji. It's not hard to figure out that a kanji's on'yomi is the sound it makes in those compounds. The only exception would be a few common kanji that have multiple on readings, like 人 or 日

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392378
Sounds pretty bad, yeah. But I don't know, if it works for you it's alright I guess? If you don't think it works out, give kanjidicks a try:

http://kanjidamage.com/japanese_symbols/41

The guy lists onyomi, kunyomi and compounds, together with mnemonics (if you need those) and in an easy-to-difficult order.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392383
Well that certainly helps. As a side-questions, how would you 'pronounce' something you don't know the meaning off? Would you guess? Or read it with kun?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392396
Here's some of the stuff i gathered:
Tools:

   For Google Chrome:
      Furigana Injector: https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/cbahnmcliajmanjkaolemjelphicnein?hl=en
      Rikaikun: https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/jipdnfibhldikgcjhfnomkfpcebammhp?hl=en

   For Mozilla Firefox
      Furigana Injector: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6178/
      HTML Ruby: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6812/ - (For better control over Furigana)
      Rikaichan: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2471/

   Practicing:
      Hiragana and Katakana: http://www.gyford.com/japanese/
      Everything: http://ichi2.net/anki/
      Everything: http://smart.fm/ - (Anki on drugs)
      Kanji: http://kanji.koohii.com/ - (À la RtK)
      Kanji: http://kanjidamage.com - Kanji with readings and mnemonics (Used to be called kanjidicks)
      Grammar: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/kanji
      Other: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/

   Books:
      The Genki series + CD's (2 books, and one workbook)
      The Basic Kanji Book Series (2 books/workbooks)
      The infamous "Remembering the Kanji"/Heisigs (3 books)
      Childrens Stories
      Manga with Furigana, or song lyrics in kana/romaji

Am i missing anything worthwhile?

[Anonymous No.]

I'd really recommend against using Rikaichan if you want to learn kanji.

[Anonymous No.]

Taking Japanese as my second minor, but that means it tends to take a back seat to the rest of my studies. I'm hoping to be able to pass N3 next year since I'll have about 4 semesters done by then. I'd like to go further, but damned university scheduling conflicts prevent me from taking the upper levels until at least my senior year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392410
Instead of the furigana injector fx extension you listed I'd recommend this furigana inserter extension here:
http://code.google.com/p/itadaki/
Not only did it feel like it was faster even on bigger sites for me, it has the ability to monitor your clipboard and auto-paste the contents into a browser window (ready to be looked at using rikaichan), which is really useful together with agth.
Also, http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392428
Ahh, that's nice, i guess. But it does not inject it on the webpage, or what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392400
I would probably guess it with on readings, but you eventually start to get a feeling for which kanji tend to be pronounced how and in what situations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392400
If you see a which is completely new to you you basically have no chance of getting to the pronounciation.
You only get a chance at it if you meet a new compound which you know the respective parts of.

>>6392441
What exactly do you mean? The clipboard contents get always pasted to the end of the page. If you know a bit of javascript you can modify the extension though.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm studying for N1 right now. I took 1 kyu last year and failed with 65%, mostly due to kanji weakness (the kanji section was my lowest score). This year I will pass that motherfucker.

Also, as for Chinese who supposedly pass 1 kyu or N1 after a year - I would LOVE to see their listening scores. Their character knowledge is 90% of what gets them through. Chinese is totally unrelated to Japanese but because Japanese borrowed Chinese characters they have a major advantage over westerners. Either that or they have secret gariben study skills handed down through the generations that they aren't telling us about.

Also going to start an MA program in Japanese lit in January.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392527
I actually wondered about this before.
I imagine learning japanese as a chinese is like looking at the words of your own language
but suddenly they are all pronounced completely different.

Wouldn't that actually be confusing as fuck?

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

>>6392527
>Their character knowledge is 90% of what gets them through

That should change with the remodeling of the tests now though, since now you need to pass each section seperately as well as having a high enough total score. You fail one section, you fail the whole test, even if you get 100% of the points in the other sections.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6391604
instead of having japanese as a major you could be a fuckin engineer or some shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392812
Wow. Well, that's good news but it does make the test harder (my listening outstripped my kanji due to too much animu). I guess the Chinese issue must have caught the attention of the test makers.

Another thing I hear is that it's not based on percentages anymore - the speculation I hear is that they use ranked questions that count for more or less depending on their difficulty.

[Anonymous No.]

Oh, also, ANKI is worthless. Even study books are better, words in the context of sentences are much better for learning than flashcards. Best is books and such, but you have to be sure to cover the sort of vocab on the test and that doesn't pop up in novels or short stories.

I passed 2 kyuu years ago basically due to playing Popotan (Mii uses some pretty sophisticated language for a loli character), reading Chibi Maruko-chan and other manga, and reading newspapers (for a class).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6392887 Oh, also, ANKI is worthless. Even study books are better
You are one dumb motherfucker.

[Anonymous No.]

For those with an OK grasp on vocabulary / grammar, I really recommend Japanese (talk) radio / podcasts. There are tons of really good ones with seiyuu, singers, and the like. The speech is usually more natural than in anime, and you aren't relying on visual cues.

You can listen to them on nico nico douga or a few radio sites. I'll make a few posts about the different shows and stuff after this.

[Anonymous No.]

Some general stations:

http://animate.tv/radio/
Streams using asx. They are very protective of their stuff, so you might have trouble finding downloads of past episodes.

http://hibiki-radio.jp/
Streams in flash. There is some overlap with the shows on other sites.

http://onsen.ag/
Streams in flash / silverlight. Huge selection of shows, but for some reason they block foreign IP addresses so you'll need a proxy...

http://www.agqr.jp/
Website for bunka housou's anime / game radio shows, you can listen and watch live with the PLAY link on the right. You need to be on a PC and the player can be kinda fickle. It's fun to listen live though, and there are often videos accompanying the streams. (Keep in mind not every show is live though.) Airs Monday through Friday, the schedule is here: http://www.agqr.jp/timetable/digital-mf.php

http://www.nicovideo.jp/tag/%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B8%E3%82%AA
Niconico douga has a HUGE amount of radio, both old and new, both official and fan uploads. Also it has comments, so double the fun. This is my preferred way of listening.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393249
http://lantis-net.com/
Oh yeah, this too! Like hibiki there is some overlap.

Next post I'll say some of the shows I like.

[Anonymous No.]

To be honest I haven't listened to a lot recently or picked up new shows in a while, so a lot of my favorites ended... But anyway.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/search/%E3%81%84%E3%81%9F%E3%81%9A%E3%82%89%E9%BB%92%E3%81%86%E3%81%95%E3%81
%8E
>Tamura Yukari - Itazura Kuro Usagi
One of Tamura Yukari (idol seiyuu)'s shows. Despite her cutesy appearance and voice, she lets her dark or teasing sense of humor slip now and then. She rarely puts on the cutesy act during her radio, when she does it's obviously a joke. Quite funny radio structured with a few corners.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/search/%E7%A7%98%E5%AF%86%E3%81%AE%E5%B0%8F%E9%83%A8%E5%B1%8B
>Tamura Yukari - Kissa Kuro Usagi Himitsu no Kobeya
Yukarin's unstructured random talk with the radio staff at King Records. It can be REALLY funny, usually more so than Itazura Kuro Usagi. But the casual-ness might make it a bit tougher for some to understand.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/tag/%E5%B0%8F%E6%9E%97%E3%82%86%E3%81%86%E3%81%AE%EF%BC%88%E4%BB%AE%EF%BC%89
?sort=f
>Kobayashi Yuu no (Kari)
Everyone knows the crazy seiyuu / master artist Kobayashi Yuu... right? All her craziness plus a ton of pigs. Includes video for parts of the show. Really funny to watch her go wild. Bonus when she leaves the studio and confuses the workers at Bunka Housou.

http://ch.nicovideo.jp/search_video/%E3%82%A2%E3%82%A4%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%83%BC%
E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3!!!?mode=t&page=1&sort=f&order=d&channel_id=ch765
>IDOLM@STER STATION
Mingos, Nunu, and Harami of Idolmaster chit chat and sing each week.

[Anonymous No.]

http://haitenai.com/category/radio/mikoradio/
>miko raji
miko & quim of IOSYS have chaotic and funny talk every other week. miko also does some very funny drawings. There are a lot of inside jokes so I'd recommend listening from the start. Look for the old episodes on nico.

http://haitenai.com/category/radio/ayc/
>Ayu Kora
Another IOSYS radio, but with Ayu. Updates randomly. Funny, cute, perverted.

http://animate.tv/radio/details.php?id=szbh
>SZBH - Sayonara Zetsubou Housou
Shintani Ryoko and Kamiya Hiroshi. Based around the anime Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei, really funny radio show with a big cult following. Definitely listen even if you don't know the show. The back episodes might be a bit tough to find though.

http://www.sakurasaori.net/?page_id=65
>Sakura Saori no Love Love Loveable
Totally over the top moe high pitched cuteness. Scripted and fake? Probably. Fun to listen to anyway? Definitely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393321

Saori Sakura is the one who did that Nursery Rhyme song, right? I'm listening!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393416
Yup! She always speaks in that voice too.

[Anonymous No.]

Been studying since january.
Fuck, this shit is impossible.

Im playing 'garden' and look up probably 20% of the kanji and usually can get the idea of what is going on - though with uncertainty. Its hard to know if I am right with no translations..

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393438
>She always speaks in that voice too.

This is awesome

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393450

To get rid of that "uncertainty" feeling, you need to study the grammar carefully. You have a good grammar book?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393467
i have dbjg, but studying grammar is a certain way to kill my interest. i have absolutely no desire to learn about transitive, intransitive, prerogative, etc. fuck i dont even know what that means in english

[Anonymous No.]

I know every kanji except 好. Please teach me its reading.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393545
Hao.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393480
Different people learn different ways, I feel the same about understanding all that dumb grammar stuff. For me, I rarely ever looked stuff up. Just read manga (with furigana) and the pronunciations associated with the image over time. The meanings also eventually picked up through context, and from hearing them in other places. Subtitled anime is great for when you're initially putting the pieces together. Don't get caught up on each little thing, as long as you get the big picture, you'll fill in the gaps over time.

Of course one of my friends thought this method was insane, he had to stop and look up every little thing when he was reading. So to each their own. But in the end I know more than him, and he learned the fastest when he started listening to radio shows too....

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393644
its hard to figure out what works best probably because the most vocal people are the ones that dont know what they are talking about. i try to only consider the suggestions of people who know more than i do. sometimes its hard to know.

im just doing what seems easiest and doing what ive heard polyglots suggest - input, more input, basically no grammar, and more input.

since ive only been at it less than a year, i would say its effective as I can essentially read basic texts, but i cant output for shit. seem to be at the JLPT2 level if I had to guess.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393710
You sound like you are in a position similar to mine. I haven't studied grammar at all, and have done very little output. My studies have basically consisted of looking up words, adding sentences to anki, and reading a LOT. Within the last month or so I started using Lang-8 to get better at grammar and output, and it's been interesting. Getting a bit better with my grammar and such, and even learning some new words from looking up words I am trying to use. Also planning to take my first ever Japanese course in a couple months when I change colleges, so hopefully that is a fun and rewarding experience.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393710
Yeah I know what you mean about the more vocal people. To be honest I usually stay quiet about my methods because for whatever reason, people RAGE if you say you learned from anime/games/movies/radio/whatever instead of in school like you're "supposed to". 2 of my friends studied Japanese in school and are poor at it, compared to 3 friends who were self taught and are near fluent.

Input is great, but if you're worried about output, try making a Japanese twitter account or something. Even if nobody reads it, you'll get your brain thinking the right way. Unfortunately you can't get a mixi account anymore.

I think you've been doing well though if you know that much after a year. I only got to a kinda high level because I started when I was pretty young... But now I got hired to work in Japan, so it got me somewhere at least!

[Anonymous No.]

これで終わりだ。

[Anonymous No.]

I liken the use of grammatical analysis to running a complex program under a debugger. You don't always need it or want to fool with it, but it can be a tremendous help sometimes.
If you ever start to translate, you will no longer be satisfied just getting the "gist" of things. You will need to know the meaning imparted by every single word (no skipping)...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393806
This is why I hate when people ask me to translate something on the spot, because with my intuitive feel for grammar nailing down a specific English equivalent sentence is pretty difficult (even though I "understand" the sentence in Japanese). But just like anything else, practice specifically translating would be the best solution for this problem in my opinion. Granted, that practice would be hammering in those grammar "rules", but I think learning such things while actually working in the language is much better than taking the perspective of the outsider applying rules in an attempt to understand. If you understand what I mean by that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393806
That's true. But for many people I think it's more effective to get the gist first, then improve and fill in the blanks. That way you can understand the grammar by context (like your native language) rather than scrambling your brain trying to remember different forms. You are very right though, and I really have to improve on that. Usually I write out how it pops into my head and what "feels" right, then end up checking it 1000 times to be as sure as I can.

>>6393820
The main thing I hate about people asking on the spot is how important context is in Japanese.. Even if you understand every word, it can be impossible to translate a random sentence right without knowing the situation.

On the spot translation of a conversation or something though, I've done OK with I guess... Because there's not really time to sweat all the details anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393820
>>6393836
angry nerds compensating because they couldn't translate even the simpliest sentences for their friends when requested

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393843
Understanding and translating are two different skills.
This applies not to just languages but other things like thoughts. Just because you can think or feel something doesn't mean you can articulate that well to another individual in a way they can understand.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393890

Yes, you're right. I guess it helps to be a "language nerd" to be fascinated by the translation part. I often ask myself as I read, "how would I say this in English"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393480
There is "studying grammar" like that, which doesn't help your language skills, but in order to learn a language you MUST be able to use and understand grammar.

I used the "Japanese: The Spoken Language" books to learn Japanese (I also had good teachers), and while those particular books have definite weirdness (they use romaji, odd romaji at that, and the tapes/CD for them are old and outdated and badly need to be redone), they are very very good books for grammar.

>>6393320
>>6393321
Thank you, radio dude.

[Skuld !0rRMsAeTcs No.]

Wow, this thread is still here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6393320
>>6393321
I used to download Kotoko no Koto and Chou Momo-i off Perfect Dark. I really loved those.

Check the "Other" category of TT for Kotoko. Beyond #282 they're only on nicovideo it seems.

[I Love Dlanor No.]

I am finishing up my second year of Japanese classes at college. I've taken the Kanji exams from Japan and passed level 10(only 80 kanji) and 9 and I'll be taking 8 or 7 sometime in 2011, I think it's offered in April and December. And I've got those kanji certificates, but they use kanji on it that I can't even read so I don't even know what it says hahah

[Anonymous No.]

>>6394651
Do you still have the old Chou Momo-i eps? I really want the ep where miko is a guest. It's episode 86.

I love Chou Momo-i but I didn't listen to it until kind of late. I did have something I sent in shown on their once too. But there was a goof up so she didn't actually read my letter, haha.

[Anonymous No.]

My reading skills greatly improved after reading a whole episode of Umineko in Japanese (without ATLAS, I just used dictionaries when I didn't know some words). It took about a month, but now I can read anything that doesn't contain lots of scientific terms easily.

[Anonymous No.]

Studied just over 1 year, classes and now self study. The classes taught a little bit, but it's quite a bit slower than learning yourself. I am about half way through kanji damage, and know an additional 1-400 kanji, so I know something like 900-1300 kanji. I really REALLY try to force myself to do 20-30 per day, usually like 22. It's really painful. I should be done in a month or so. Hope to fucking god.

I'm reading death note manga (100% furigana) and flyable heart with translation aggregator - jparser (Not ATLAS or any other retarded auto translate shit). I add the most common words and most interesting words to ANKI to study them. I generally learn these words in a couple days or even instantly sometimes. Generally I only add the words if I know all the kanji involved, making them way easier to remember.

I read and re-read grammar books constantly. It's really helpful. I suck anus at grammar.

My suggestions, if a words keeps fucking you, go apeshit on that bitch for like an hour, understand EVERYTHING about it. Don't just be like "o it probably means x". I mean grammar based words, shit like kara made etc etc.

Also, for me, learning jukugo and and shit is 10x easier if you already know the kanji's english keyword. So you can do simple shit like 鼻水 nose + water? O RUNNY NOSE NO SHIT hana motherfuckin mizu. Which is why I think Kanji Damage or Heisig or something is the best way to go. And I do not understand how people do it without them. Without a mnemonic I can't remember shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6400055
I'm a bit confused. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

>Also, for me, learning jukugo and and shit is 10x easier if you already know the kanji's english keyword.

Do some people "learn" kanji without learning what it means? What's the point? Just to learn the pronunciation?

Not trying to downplay any method or anything... I just don't get it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6401215
Jukugo means compound, a word consisting of two single kanji. Some people learn these without actually knowing the respective kanji they consist of, because it's a useful word or what do I know.
Same with learning complicated kanji because they're useful even though it would be much easier if you knew the radicals they're made up of.