/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:25:19 2010 No.6234058 [Reply] [Original]

Someone with epic-level of Touhou lore must know why Zun mentions in PCB music rooms Doll Judgement description, that "Alice is special character in the series". What makes Alice so special for him?
She is also the character with most themes, all of which are outstanding. In "Strange and bright natural deity" she got 2½ chapters practically for herself.

There has to be some personal reasons behind this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:27:19 2010 No.6234067 team shanghai alice

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:32:19 2010 No.6234085
File: 404 KB, 600x800, touhou0508.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234067
Oh yes, that one, too. Bear in mind, that Alice existed before Team Shanghai Alice. She even made it into Zuns "team" name!

Did Lewis' book actually give him that much inspiration?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:33:19 2010 No.6234088 >>6234085 I think Japanese people know the name Alice and associate it with goth lolis. I doubt he's ever read anything by Caroll.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:35:19 2010 No.6234100 You're reading too much into it, OP.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:39:19 2010 No.6234113 Short haired blondes are awful.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:41:19 2010 No.6234120 >>6234113 Seriously? It's my favorite, both on girls and on boys.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:42:19 2010 No.6234131

Gensokyo is at the very least tangentially, and at the very most directly, based off of Caroll's Alice in Wonderland.
Zun said he wanted Gensokyo to be a place where Western and Eastern fantasy mingled. An Eastern Wonderland. That is why the central characters feature icons from the East and West.
Of course in recent years he hasn't stuck by that idea as much, as it has been quite a long time since he's introduced any characters that were of predominantly Western influence, excluding clothing.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:43:19 2010 No.6234134

>>6234088
Ever played Mystic Square Extra? No? I thought so too. It's filled with card soldiers.

Now that I started to think about it, Gensokyo has some resemblance to Wonderland. Shit, even the name translates to mean practically the same.

So in the end, everything good on this planet ultimately comes from western countries.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:43:19 2010 No.6234135 >>6234113 My hair is awesome, thank you very much

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:45:19 2010 No.6234145 >>6234134 Well, yes. Touhou wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Western countries. I hope this isn't news to anyone.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:47:19 2010 No.6234153 >>6234113 I see somebody is Parseeing Alice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:48:19 2010 No.6234159 >She is also the character with most themes Marisa has her beat, I think

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:48:19 2010 No.6234161 >>6234153 Parsee causes jealousy. She's transcended actually being envious herself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:49:19 2010 No.6234164 File: 15 KB, 640x400, scrncp_th05_jack.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234134 Jack is the best Touhou.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:55:19 2010 No.6234185 >>6234164 Why does Jack has King's crown?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 18:56:19 2010 No.6234194 >>6234185 He killed the king and usurped his throne. Truly, Touhou is grimdark beyond comparison. Even an innocent-looking card soldier is capable of treachery.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:15:19 2010 No.6234290 >>6234194 Jeez. I knew PC-98 was grim, but I had no idea how grim...

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:18:19 2010 No.6234313 >>6234159 Yeah I was about to say, Marisa definitely has more themes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:19:19 2010 No.6234314 >>6234131 What about Yu-- >excluding clothing Darn it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:20:19 2010 No.6234326 >>6234067 >>6234085 Gensokyo, a small wonderland (Alice) set in the Far-East (Shanghai.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:21:19 2010 No.6234331 File: 5 KB, 166x200, 1276388696518.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234326 But Gensokyo isn't anywhere near Shanghai.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:22:19 2010 No.6234336 >>6234164 And true to Touhou spirit, Jack definitely looks female.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:24:19 2010 No.6234352 >>6234313 Doesn't Reimu have the same number of themes as Marisa, counting The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden and whatnot?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:25:19 2010 No.6234360 File: 5 KB, 166x200, 1286234506701.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234331 It's not supposed to be literal, you jerk. "Alice" and "Shanghai" are just words used to represent those settings.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:25:19 2010 No.6234358 >>6234331 And everyone seems to have a pretty tragic backstory. Not much of a wonderland either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:26:19 2010 No.6234367 >>6234358 Most of the loli characters aren't tragic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:27:19 2010 No.6234369 >>6234352 "Marisa has 6 theme songs (excluding remixes), more than any other character in the series. " -touhou.wikia.com including those though, you definitely could be right.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:28:19 2010 No.6234371 >>6234358 Pfft. So? Wonderland wasn't a nice place, with its tyrannical ruler. It doesn't have to be a paradise, it just has to be strange and mystical.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:28:19 2010 No.6234373 >>6234358 But nobody actually dies, much like Alice in Wonderland. Off with her head!

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:28:19 2010 No.6234374 >>6234358 Wonderland is a pretty horrifying place, you know. Just like Gensokyo, come to think about it. I guess he succeeded in that respect. >>6234360 I was never one for poetry.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:28:19 2010 No.6234376 Alice was his original character do not steal, probably. Then he thought he'd come up with some other, throw-away character, while developing Alice further. That character is Reimu.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:29:19 2010 No.6234380 >>6234371 > tyrannical ruler Do you mean the Red Queen or the Queen of Hearts?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:29:19 2010 No.6234383 >>6234358 Most characters aren't tragic. The only one that really stands out is Yuyuko, and she can't remember it, so it doesn't count.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:30:19 2010 No.6234389 >>6234088 You're an asspie. ZUN is very cultured, the numerous inspiration from some American books is prevalent in many games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:31:19 2010 No.6234395 >>6234389 Yeah, he knows about some poem from an English novel that I never even heard of, and I studied English for 2 years.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:31:19 2010 No.6234394 >>6234383 If you think about all of the fairies and all those other little fuckers they seem pretty damn easy-going.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:32:19 2010 No.6234401

>>6234088
Are you serious? ZUN is actually very well-read in Western literature. Look at the fucking Agatha Christie references. Hell, Mystic Square wasn't only a reference to Alice in Wonderland, but also contained references to Dante's Inferno and John Milton's Paradise Lost.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:33:19 2010 No.6234405 >>6234395 You're saying that as a joke, right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:33:19 2010 No.6234407 File: 63 KB, 371x600, original alice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234395 That was pretty much her most famous work, though. Also, original Alice is the best Alice.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:34:19 2010 No.6234417

>>6234369
For Reimu, I count:
Eternal Shrine Maiden
Mystic Oriental Love Consultation
Maiden's Capriccio
Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly ~ Ancients
The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden
Spring Lane ~ Colorful Path

For Marisa, I count:
Love-Colored Master Spark
Dim. Dream
Vessel of Stars ~ Casket of Star
The Witch's Ball ~ Magus
Magician's Melancholy
Magus Night

Am I missing any?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:34:19 2010 No.6234419 >>6234405 Hurr hurr, I could've expected that remark. No, I never read any of that author's works.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:36:19 2010 No.6234430 >>6234395 Alice in wonderland is known throught the entire globe. Just cause you're from some rundown thirdworld country and were never thatght it at school doesn't mean the rest of the world wouldn't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:36:19 2010 No.6234436 >>6234383 Eirin has a kinda grimdark past. And Byakuren had to suffer 1000 years of boredom, the greatest enemy of witches!

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:37:19 2010 No.6234441 >>6234430 Ah, Americans, thinking English is taught at high level in every country. I'm probably one of the few where it is even part of the regular curriculum. Seriously, you're not as important as you think you are.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:37:19 2010 No.6234443 >>6234430 You might want to reread that post, ZUN never made a reference to the Jabberwocky, so he's likely talking about 10 Little Indians from And Then They Were None.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:38:19 2010 No.6234452 >>6234436 Eirin's past isn't grimdark at all. So she killed some people because she loves Kaguya, so what.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:39:19 2010 No.6234454 >>6234452 Relatively grimdark.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:40:19 2010 No.6234463 >>6234441 If you aren't part of the Anglo-sphere, you aren't important.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:40:19 2010 No.6234460 >>6234452 Killing people is not grimdark now? Oh wait, it's not grimdark for you unless it has emo existential wangst, right?

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:40:19 2010 No.6234465

>>6234383
A doll forgotten in a field so long she became a youkai isn't tragic?
An immortal princess locked away for a thousand years?
Someone who wants to be surprising but only manages to be surprisingly cute?
OK maybe not the last one, but there's plenty of tragic backstories in Gensokyo, even if Yuyuko's does outclass a lot of them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:41:19 2010 No.6234471 >>6234463 >China is not important They pretty much own your country.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:41:19 2010 No.6234475 >>6234460 No, killing people is not GRIMDARK. If, for some reason, you are unfamiliar with that term, its a joking way of describing Warhammer 40,000. If it isn't grim and dark to the point of being comic, it isn't GRIMDARK.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:43:19 2010 No.6234494 >>6234475 No, I am not that into 4chan memes. Tell me about the origin of "butthurt" now, please.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:43:19 2010 No.6234495 >>6234471 I like to delude myself by thinking that, because they own us, they don't want us to break.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:44:19 2010 No.6234502 >>6234494 You know asspain? It's like that. But with butt and hurt instead.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:44:19 2010 No.6234503 >>6234494 If you start using it incorrectly and making a fool of yourself, sure.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:45:19 2010 No.6234506 File: 142 KB, 1024x768, warhammer-40k-eternal-battle.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] grimdark has.... lost its meaning.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:46:19 2010 No.6234518 >>6234506 How long does it take to draw something like this? I want to be able to draw like this, how much do I need to grind before I am at that level. I have some experience drawing western cartoons.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 19:49:19 2010 No.6234531
File: 146 KB, 567x800, eirinbaywatch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You can have perfectly good GRIMDARK without death and suffering.
A prize example would be Fallout 2, which is extremely dark and gritty to the point of nearly being comically excessive, yet possible to complete without taking a single life, and even without using violence at all (the exception being the scripted fight in the tutorial).

In either case Eirin is supposedly the Touhou version of Omoikane no Mikoto, and the shinto creation myth is pretty GRIMDARK in itself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:51:19 2010 No.6234541 >>6234531 Eirin is not. She's just a normal person who happens to base a few spellcards off it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:51:19 2010 No.6234538 File: 43 KB, 380x576, warhammer1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234518 DODGE BURN N FILM GRAIN GRIM DARK FUTUREZ

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:52:19 2010 No.6234546 File: 200 KB, 1280x901, 1249899801033.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234531 Delicious Brahmin fries, must eat.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Oct 4 19:55:19 2010 No.6234560 >>6234538 BRING BACK BEAKIES!

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 19:57:19 2010 No.6234568 >>6234531 >(the exception being the scripted fight in the tutorial) You can talk your way out of that actually. Frank Horrigan has to be killed however, even if not directly by you.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 19:57:19 2010 No.6234569
File: 462 KB, 850x1202, alicegoliathconstruction.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234518

>How long does it take to draw something like this?

Between one and three days, depending on the artist.

>I want to be able to draw like this, how much do I need to grind before I am at that level.

10-15 years, minus your current experience.

For that particular style, google Rogue Trader.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:00:19 2010 No.6234582

>>6234531
>shinto creation myth is pretty GRIMDARK

You best be kidding, Shinto creation myth is hilarious. Anything afterwards, when Susanoo is up and kicking, is doubly so.

Though, if anything, "He who ponders together eight million thoughts" is a badass name. If I ever make a Twilight Solar, that'll be his name.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 20:01:19 2010 No.6234585
File: 207 KB, 850x746, alicehinaeventhorizon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234568

Wait, you got to kill Frank Horrigan? So it's a myth that you can avoid him?

Should teach me not to believe all I read, I guess. Never gotten to the guy - game always glitches out for me second time I go down in the Hub. Can't get past that.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:06:19 2010 No.6234598

>>6234541
>She's just a normal person who happens to base a few spellcards off it.

It's not said outright, but the circumstantial evidence - her extreme age, her intellect, her canon power level (above both of the Watatsukis, who are real, if minor, Jap gods), her spell cards and the fact that all of the final bosses in the Windows series, barring Remilia, are based on some figure from Jap myth would, together, strongly suggest that the "normal humans" who succeed in traveling to the moon and founding the Lunar Capital are the same figures who end up being revered as gods by earth-dwellers.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:08:19 2010 No.6234608

>>6234585
No way to avoid him. The ending sequence can only be triggered by dropping his hp to 0.

There are ways to do this without ever firing a shot yourself though. You can convince some of the Enclave that the self destruct isn't a drill and that unless they fight their way out they're screwed. Or you can hack the turrets in his room to turn against him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:08:19 2010 No.6234610 >>6234569 >Between one and three days, what, that would take 3 MONTHS at the least, from the looks of it. >10-15 years, At what pace?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:10:19 2010 No.6234615 >above both of the Watatsukis, who are real, if minor, Jap gods There are several other such gods made into Touhous, but what sets the Watatsukis above them is the moon tech.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:11:19 2010 No.6234622

>>6234585
Either you shoot him, or you get the turrets/soldiers to shoot him.
It doesn't matter anyway, since at that point you've damaged the oil rig enough that it's going to explode and kill everyone there anyway. You take out a lot more than just one man.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 20:11:19 2010 No.6234619
File: 374 KB, 800x600, alicegoliathsuika.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234582

So, they come down from heaven, then they walk around a pole and one of them gives birth to monsters, which they throw in the ocean. Then they figure they walked around the pole the wrong way, one of them gives birth to some decent gods and dies, and the other rips one of said gods to bits which creates fire. Then he goes down in the underworld and takes a leak on a comb which turns it into trees, and other stuff which is certainly more important but not as memorable happens. Then he takes a bath which causes him to melt or something, and a whole load of gods are born from the mush of his body. Then Susanoo throws a dead horse at his sister and thus causes a solar eclipse, some other goddess strips, and apparently Amaterasu is gay.

Okay, you're right. As dark as the whole myth is, it's unintentionally pretty damn hilarious.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:13:19 2010 No.6234631 >>6234615 Are there any besides Kanako (Yasaka-tome, wife of Take-Minataka), Suwako (...?) and Utsuho (Yatagarasu)?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:14:19 2010 No.6234633 >>6234619 Amaterasu and the rest of the amatsukami were assholes, anyway. They had their own godly realm but they weren't satisfied with it so they came down to subjugate the kunitsukami and make them their slaves and servants.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:16:19 2010 No.6234649
File: 342 KB, 827x1169, 9409444.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234631
Suwako is primarily based on Moriya-shin, who is also identified as Mishaguji a.k.a. those snake things she controls and the original god of Mt. Moriya before Take-Minakata sort of hijacked his spot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:17:19 2010 No.6234651 >>6234619 >and apparently Amaterasu is gay. Well, duh. In certain cases, she is said to be responsible for impregnating the Empress. Now there's something I'd very much like to see doujins of, in addition to the Red Arrow story.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:19:19 2010 No.6234665 File: 43 KB, 300x300, 8657778.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6234649 i`d like to see a shin megami tensei (main series) touhou crossover

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:21:19 2010 No.6234672 >>6234651 Protip: Amaterasu was, as often as not, drawn/painted as male until the Meiji period, when she consistently began to be represented as female because the government figured that it made for a stronger message. themoreyouknow.jpg

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:23:19 2010 No.6234686
File: 414 KB, 1024x768, kikuri-hime.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234631
Kikuri is likely named after Kikuri-hime, the goddess of life who mediated between Izanagi and Izanami in their meeting at Yomi, the land of the dead.

Interestingly, it was Kikuri's mediation between the two deities that became the basis for the duties of a shrine maiden/miko.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 20:26:19 2010 No.6234700
File: 111 KB, 850x680, alicegoliath.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234610

Don't want to scare you off, but as a professional digital artist a worst case scenario will expect you to put out something like this within 9 hours.
What's more encouraging is I know plenty of people who can and routinely do pull this off, and most of them aren't even particularly reknowned artists. You eventually get used to the pace - it's not really a problem.

As for learning pace, go with what feels comfortable and put in some grinding when you have nothing better to do.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:27:19 2010 No.6234705
File: 577 KB, 1110x1000, konngara.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234631
Konngara is also speculated to be named after Konngara Douji, a yaksha who served as an attendant of the Wisdom King Acala, also known as Fudoo Myoo-oo. Like Acala is traditionally depicted, she is shown with a sword in her hand and fire surrounding her body.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:28:19 2010 No.6234708

>>6234700
Sounds like bullshit. I took half a day just to get linework done when I did cartoons. Whenever I see these detailed images I also see comments like "I worked on this for the past month".

Besides, if those pictures were done in 9 hours, why aren't there millions of them on the internet?

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:33:19 2010 No.6234733

>>6234633
It's mostly Amaterasu being a bitch. Other Amatsukami were a decent if hilariously dysfunctional bunch, miscreating the creation being the least of their errors (not to mention the principal creation kami (those before Izanami and Izanagi) somehow went AWOL in that process. )

>>6234649
I thought Mishaguji was the oldest fellow (and has the deer sacrifice festival), Moriya-no-Kami came after with the ropes and pillars Kanako uses, and Takeminakata & Yasakatome hijacked the spot later on.

>>6234672
Oh yeah, I remember reading something of the sort. Thanks.

Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:37:19 2010 No.6234744

>>6234733
Well, one interpretation is that Moriya-no-Kami battled Mishaguji and won, thereby taking his place as the native god of the region. Another is that they were one and the same, revered under different names after the worship of a vulgar sex god like Mishaguji was made taboo by the amatsukami.

HelenXonpool !a0yHhBwvus Mon Oct 4 20:43:19 2010 No.6234775
File: 1.92 MB, 1200x1600, konngara2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6234708

Entirely true. Worked with two artists who put out pictures with Rogue Trader level of detail every two days (4 hour shifts) routinely just a couple of months ago.

But as said, that is a worst case scenario for digital artists. A European comic book artist has a whole lot more time. About 2-3 days per page for pencils only.

>>6234705

The more you know...
So as much as I dislike the idea... guess there is some substance to the idea of Konngara being a sort of oni after all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:47:19 2010 No.6234794 >>6234705 What disturbs me is how Acala and Bishamonten were both inordinarily fond of attractive young boys as attendants, so much that it goes a bit on the creepy side.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:50:19 2010 No.6234808 >>6234407 Lewis Caroll is a man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:51:19 2010 No.6234813 >>6234808 He was referring to Agatha Christie.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:52:19 2010 No.6234822 >>6234813 Then why'd he put that Alice in Wonderland bit there?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 20:55:19 2010 No.6234838 >>6234822 Because he thinks the original Alice from the book was the best, and felt compelled to show you evidence.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 21:00:19 2010 No.6234868 File: 1.86 MB, 1736x1705, 10459239.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Original Alice fanart is the best.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 4 21:32:19 2010 No.6235022 >>6234822 Because the flood limit makes it easier to just make one post containing two different ideas instead of waiting.

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