/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[A Certain Magical !HOMOfybeOY No.]

Why does everyone hate this route?

[Anonymous No.]

My favourite.

[Anonymous No.]

Sakura.

jesus fuck i hated her.

[Anonymous No.]

Because it's about accepting reality, something /jp/ isn't good at

[Anonymous No.]

Because there is about 5 hours of boredom in the middle.
Sorry but that's not how you make a good route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202005
If it was accepting reality to save a better character, I doubt /jp/ would hate it as much.

[Anonymous No.]

It's my favourite. I loved Sakura, Kotomine and Illya in that route.
Haters gonna hate.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't hate the route

I hate Sakura.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202010

Yeah this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202008
No, instead you either ultra rush it or repeat the same thing in every route and still expect to be shocking
.

[Anonymous No.]

Sakura. Killing off all the good characters early on. Boring. Terrible Disney-style end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6201998
>everyone

You mean a few underaged faggots who BAWWW over their shallow shitty route?

[Anonymous No.]

It was a shit route but had the best end (the balls of steel "bad" end).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202009
Meanwhile, Fate Shirou kicks reason to the curb and pierces the heavens.

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

>>6202020
Shirou or his sister actually dying, and not in a Servant-fading-away way like the other route endings
Either heartwrenching Normal End or Shirou's body being permanently lost
Main franchise girl dies at your hands no matter what
Disney? Really?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202029
WHAT IS THIS AND WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN IT IN GAME?

[Anonymous No.]

Rider was extremely disappointing.
Route felt disjointed as fucking.
Sakura failed to be endearing, both as a heroine or a villain, I felt nothing for her.
Didn't go far enough with its themes and the ending didn't fit at all, it's like a shonen trying to go all grimdark seinen shit and failing miserably.

It wasn't completely terrible but it was still pretty mediocre, but FSN as a whole isn't that top tier anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202035
True Ending.
Disney Death refers to reversible death.
EVERYTHING TURNS OUT A-OK.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202036
http://rnpatch.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202042
Is that the ending where you have to get all the other 5 ends before you can get to the Fate True end?

If so, I'm too lazy to replay everything, can you post a subbed video?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202036
IT'S LAST EPISODE, DOG
GO TO >>6202042
DOWNLOAD THAT SHIT AND BRACE FOR HAPPY TEARS

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202036

Get every bad end in the entire game. Think it only works with Realta Nua too, not sure.

But yeah, I think your enjoyment of HF is directly related to how much you like Sakura. I thought she was an endearing, sympathetic character from start to finish. Her entire life was just a tragedy in motion until the very end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202055
You only need the 5 major ends.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202065

Oh, then what do you get for getting all the Tiger Stamps? A pat on the back?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202055
>Get every bad end in the entire game.

Seeing how long this game is, there's probably over 100 bad ends. Doesn't sound very encouraging to try to get...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202065
Dear god, I have to reinstall and then skip text through all of the routes now? I don't think I can do a Fate and HF run anymore. Anyone have a save they want to upload?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202077
Three small mini cutscenes, and a "behind the scenes" chat with Taiga and Iliya about the making of the whole thing with CGs of them bathing in an onsen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202081
There's 30 or so I believe (from looking at the stamps).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202077
A scene with Taiga and Ilya naked in a hot spring congratulating you on your victory, and then arguing about their favorite routes.
>>6202081
Just the main ends, and in hindsight it still would have been worth it to grind those ends for Avalon end.

>sunsets revived
Suddenly, New Dawn in my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fPEeaBhZoc

[Anonymous No.]

It's boring at hell for the first 6 hours or so, Sakura is a terrible, terrible character. Boring as hell no personality doormate character.
Asspulls everywhere. Magic is too convenient a plot device.
Shirou changes just like that, without much though who he was for the last 15+ years. The ideals kept him alive for that long. How he decided to drop them is terribly bad executed.
If you like HF you have shit taste. Period.

[Anonymous No.]

Why do you keep making shitty spam threads?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6201998
Because they completely missed the point of the route and refuse to accept that the solution to things aren't always as simple as LOLRESOLVE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202151
That's one of the reason HF sucked.
Because Sakura was forced into this role, because she was a victim too who had to be saved.
That's why it's not interesting as a deconstruction, which FSN is supposed to be, even then Shirou still had the moral high ground.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202131
>Shirou changes just like that, without much though who he was for the last 15+ years. The ideals kept him alive for that long. How he decided to drop them is terribly bad executed.
I am tired nor, but yet again, this is only a common misconception.

>Someone who will not harm anyone
>Someone who can save everyone
Killing her would go straight against this, not doing so would also go against this as other casualties were given if he did not.

In the end he tried to save everyone, one could say it didn't go that well as many people died.
But what he truly did here was trying to live up to his ideal even when having hit the ground.

The only manner he went against his ideal was in the sense that he knew people most likely would die.
But killing Sakura isn't acceptable either.
And by saving Sakura, the others would be saved as well.

But in HF Shirou's ideal would break no matter what.
But he chose trying to save Sakura and everyone else, rather than sacrificing one to save many while going against his ideal.

I don't really know why no one misses this again and again.
In UBW we got to know how Archer repeatidly compromised, in order to protect his ideal.
In HF Shirou didn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202189
>Someone who will not harm anyone
Shirou does harm and kill people though, like in Fate.
He is just a hypocrite.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202189
I've heard this so many times that it's borderline trite.
It's the fact that Shirou didn't try to look for alternative solutions, instead just sitting around and taking care of Sakura while people were dying left and right. Then when it came down to it, he simply realized that he loves her more than everyone, then BAM, moral relativist created.

Shirou in UBW and even Fate would've tried to do something, ANYTHING, even if he didn't know what he was up against. Shirou in HF did nothing but cook and have internal struggles about killing Sakura. No attempt at being a superhero was even shown.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202145
>If I don't like something, it's spam

Why do you continue to make shitty posts?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202192
You mean Kotomine?
Granted he didn't kill him in HF, but yeah, there was that dagger thing going on Fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202195
You must remember how they didn't know what the threat was in HF when he tended to Sakura.

And as they analyzed the situation they did come up with how the jewel sword was their chance.
While Shirou may make irrational actions when not given a choice, but here they did have a plan, and running around like a fool on the streets searching for a threat he know nothing about, preventing incidents he has no information on, or even information on how to prevent them.

It's like a firefighter running around by himself searching for fires, only not having a clue on where these fires might start, or when or even if.
And in this case it would also be a firefighter who doesn't even know what fire is.

They did bet on the jewel sword, and Shirou is not as stupid to run around jepordizing everything by running around not knowing what to do.
Instead he focused on tending Sakura, trying to prevent her condition from worsening, as they prepared for everything else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202195
Honestly I can understand.
The jump just felt unnatural, it's just a question of execution.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202195
Actually, Shirou was the one looking for alternate solutions, unlike Rin, who jumped straight to the conclusion that Sakura must die and refused to let go of it. The problem was that there wasn't much that could be done until the very end. As said earlier, things aren't always as easy as LOLRESOLVE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202216
>>6202224
And that's OOC. He doesn't do anything but bank on the Jewel Sword without looking for other threats. Recall how many stupid things he did in the other routes because of his ideal and personal beliefs.

In Fate, he goes around the city searching for Rider. He also goes and confronts Ilya, who is obviously insane..

In UBW, he loses his command spell, is on the verge of death, but still wants to fight and pretty much barges into Caster's hideout without any strength or plan in order to save Rin.

In HF, he doesn't show any of these traits at all, and acts indecisive throughout the entire route until the end; a quality that isn't shown in any other route.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6201998
It's the best route as Ilya has the biggest part compared to the other two.

[Anonymous No.]

I hear Illya branched off Day 9 or something. They shouldn't have removed her route and took out Sakura's instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202255
In Fate he had Saber, as well as Command Spells.
And UBW was different. Then there were no options, and Shirou was also seemingly alone if you don't count Rin who wasn't there. There was no different plan he could think of that he could focus on instead, and in UBW people weren't dying left and right, so he also might not have been as careful.

In HF he wasn't alone, in HF there were innocents involved, and keep in mind how they had no servants in HF (in UBW both Saber and Archer was still alive, not just as readily available or friendly).
And rest assured, with no options left he would most likely have done this "something" you speak of in HF, he also did on occasions leading to bad ends.

But the thing is, in HF he couldn't fool around, in the previous ones it |wasn't as wrong" for him to possibly die, or at least he may have thought so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202255

It's not "out of character" so much as character development.

His ideal shatters before his eyes and he has to decide whether to live up to it or abandon it entirely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202334
>But the thing is, in HF he couldn't fool around, in the previous ones it |wasn't as wrong" for him to possibly die, or at least he may have thought so.

I'm not sure what you're implying.
>>6202344
It's OOC because the internal reflection leading up to that is rushed and not pulled off convincingly. I'm not saying Shirou can't change his ideals, I'm saying it's done horrible and not reflective of his character.

[Anonymous No.]

It's actually my favorite. I didn't like UBW or Fate that much. I quit playing the game for a half of the year because of that. Everyone said that HF was shit, so I thought I shouldn't bother finishing it.

You guys were so wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202360
I am saying that he is not alone and that more are relying on him, something he interprets as responsibility.

In the others he was still more of an "outsider" of sorts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202380
And how the true nature of the war is more revealed in HF than in any other route.

[Anonymous No.]

>In Fate he had Saber, as well as Command Spells.
And he wouldn't use such things.

>And UBW was different. Then there were no options, and Shirou was also seemingly alone if you don't count Rin who wasn't there. There was no different plan he could think of that he could focus on instead, and in UBW people weren't dying left and right, so he also might not have been as careful.
You seem to be under the impression he would have listened to a plan. Most of the time he just ignores the plan and challenges everything by himself unless under the current plan they are doing involves him going to face off with someone.

[Anonymous No.]

* Fate
Shirou: I want to save everybody!
END.

* UBW
Shirou: I want to save everybody!
Archer: That is both a logical contradiction and a denial of the self.
Shirou: But the ideal encompasses an aesthetic that makes the endless journey worth it. Why can't I selfishly pursue selflessness?
Archer: FUCK.
Gilgamesh: MONGRELS! THOSE SWORDS ARE FUCKING PATENTED!
END.

* Heaven's Feel
Shirou: I want to save everybody!
Archer: That is a logical contradiction and a denial of the self. If you do not realize this, you get no Sakura sex.
Shirou: You're right. I'm a moral relativist. God is dead.
Archer: That’s the spirit. Here‘s a present before I go away, don‘t mind it if it starts to kill you.
Kotomine: But I'm still evil somehow, right?
Shirou: Right.
END.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202389

>Kotomine: But I'm still evil somehow, right?

The point was that Kotomine wasn't "evil" so much as made wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

I used to hate it before I actually tried it.
I cried when Sakura was "waiting" for Shirou, but also laughed at the thought about how old she looks already.
I was expecting for some Saber NTR, like Saber bending over for Zouken...too bad there weren't any. Or at least they didn't show it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202389
Sure is TV Tropes.

>>6202380
Sounds like a moot point since in UBW and Fate, he was fighting to protect Fuyuki City and its inhabitants. He also had Saber, Ilya, Taiga, Rin, and Sakura that he wanted to protect to the very end as well.

>>6202388
>You seem to be under the impression he would have listened to a plan. Most of the time he just ignores the plan and challenges everything by himself unless under the current plan they are doing involves him going to face off with someone.
This. Shirou is not the type of character who sits around listening to plans. The most logical thing he's ever done in the game was refusing to let Saber go confront Caster alone... even then, it was by heavy persuasion from Rin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202402
And Gilgamesh's swords weren't actually patented, they were just the originals.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

By the way, I have a question for those that complain about Shirou choosing to try and save the woman he loves even if it might result in additional casualties. Would you murder your family if you knew it would result in say 10 times as many strangers having their lives saved?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202434

>Sure is TV Tropes.

Actually it was made on /jp/, then made into a copypasta on /a/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202437
No, but I'm not Shirou.
And that's not what I'm arguing about anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

It doesnt have enough Caster

But then again, even a Caster route just wouldn't have enough Caster

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202437
Probably, except in Heaven Feel the ratio that would be saved were Sakura killed are more about 1000:1 at the very least. Most likely more as it says that pretty much half the town was gone, if I remember right.

[A Certain Magical !HOMOfybeOY No.]

>>6202145
umad?

[Necrobrotent No.]

>>6202437
No situation like that would ever happen in for real life.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6202501
No, I don't think it ever says Sakura ate half the town. And Shirou wasn't simply standing by anyway; he was still trying to save people but he was simply trying to save Sakura first and foremost.

>>6202533
It's simply a hypothetical. I'm not saying it's going to happen.

[Anonymous No.]

* Heaven's Feel
Shirou: I want to save everybody!
Archer: That is a logical contradiction and a denial of the self. Besides, you can't do it.
*people dies*
Shirou: FUCK
Archer: Understand what I mean now kid? You are powerless and you cannot save your ideal. The only Emiya Shirou can do now is to coldly eliminate the source in order to lessen the damage.
Shirou: NO!! I won't do that, I won't sacrifice one to save to save others, that is not something I can do.
Archer: The fuck?? This is not me, not sure if you are worth killing anymore.

Shirou: WAAAAHHH!! BAAAWW!! I don't know what to do!! I can't sacrifice people. And I love Sakura, I just never thought love had a place in my life, perhaps it does. BAAAWW.
Shit! I am not sure if I can love so can I really love her? I am I allowed to? I can't save anyone! I cannot sacrifice someone! Can I save her? Am I allowed to? I cannot sacrifice anyone!
Iliya: Why are you crying Shirou? I will be your ally no matter what, It's natural to protect those you love. You cannot give up on those you love Shirou!
Shirou: Waahh, this was never a question to begin with! I cannot sacrifice anyone! I... cannot save everyone! But I must save her!
Iliya: I am your ally because this is the kind of person you are.

Shirou: Shut up Kotomine, I am not my father! Rin you can be quiet I won't let anyone die!
Rin: But she has to die (the situation as it is now must end)
Shirou: No one shall die!

*Sakura escapes*
Shirou: I found you! I won't let you down, never gonna give you up, or hurt you. No one shall die!
Sakura: Are you allowed to love me? Am I allowed to love you?
Shirou: It's natural to protect those you love. You cannot give up on those you love Sakura.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202591
Oh shit Shadows are everywhere! Sakura is gone!
Zouken is everywhere! Nothing is safe!
Shit the shadows are here! Now we have to run!
Archer: Crap I am dying, now let's set things straight.
Kotomine: Archer saved you, he also gave you his arm, but it will kill you.
Shirou: Great. Now let's get that sword thing ready once and for all, use this arm for what it's worth and try whatever we can do to hunt down Zouken, make Sakura come to her senses, and save everyone! No one will die!
Rin: This might not be easy.
Shirou: You don't want her to die! No one will die!
Rin: ...

*Battles*
Saber is down
Zouken is gone
Sakura is calm
Shirou: Wasn't this the best?
Rin: Yes it was, I love my sister
Sakura: Yes! Love everywhere.
Shirou now get out while I get down to bussiness.

Shirou: KOTOMINE KIREI!!
Kotomine: EMIYA SHIROU!!!
Kotomine: Crap my heart!
Shirou: You are going down now grail, doesn't matter if I die!
Iliya: You shouldn't die shirou, here let me give you body with the last of my strength before I die next year anyway.

Everyone: Things turned out "allright", right?
END

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202557
It's stated she at the very least ate 300 people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202388
>>In Fate he had Saber, as well as Command Spells.
>And he wouldn't use such things.
There was the teleport thing.

>You seem to be under the impression he would have listened to a plan.
His default plan was actually not to do much at all.
He despised the war and didn't want to take part in it, he just didn't want the wrong person to win.
And he was confident in how as long as he is still alive, the war cannot end and no can win.
This is why he doesn't do much at all until innocents are starting to get involved and things escalates.
Otherwise he was happy with letting everyone come to him, or not at all. And to deal with it when it later or when happens.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6202600
Where was that stated by the way?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202600
Just when was it stated that 300 people went missing?
Archer saved a few hundered from dying but I don't remember a number on the missing people in hf.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202608
>There was the teleport thing.
Which he didn't use until he realized that Shinji was a huge douchebag and also avoided even when Rider almost sliced off his arm?

>This is why he doesn't do much at all until innocents are starting to get involved and things escalates.
He actually does do things in every route as well. Starting with the school, then the city, then Ilya, etc.
In HF, he still didn't do anything when people were dying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202632
>Starting with the school
Rider, and innocents, everywhere.
>then the city
Caster, and innocents, everywhere.
>Ilya
Wasn't he kidnapped? Fate was a long time ago.
In either case, things escalated and he got more involved.

In UBW it's roughly the same.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202671
Pretty sure the city has innocents everywhere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202686
Yeah, but in none of those cases was the source of the problem someone close to him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202704
He suspected that it was because of Sakura and it was theorized by Rin that it was someone in the same part of the city.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202686
So?
At first they didn't know of the threat, and then that firefighter example applies.
But he also did do things, they prepared for the jewel sword, and they needed it to go up against Zouken.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202723
As stated, in the other routes those events weren't caused by someone who he was close to, and he actually had somewhere to go to figure out what was going on.

And, hell, you actually are given the option of killing Sakura in her sleep at one point, but if you choose to do that Rider just kills you right out, so the Shirous of the multiverse who do choose to do that get eliminated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202768
Just to let you know. That guy broke the chain of replies. So it wasn't me.
But I guess that doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202768
>>6202739
I don't see your point.
In UBW, Shirou was wandering around aimlessly for an entire day.
In Fate, he was wandering around looking for Shinji (Whom he did not yet know was a master yet) aimlessly as well.

Saying that Shirou did not know of the black mud as an excuse of his inactivity doesn't really add up.

[Y10NRDY !kxh.1oTAkU No.]

I only like the scat scenes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202998
In HF, Saber and him went in daily night wandering looking for Masters.

The only difference is that Sakura was ill in his house, and that was on his mind a lot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202998
But in UBW and Fate he was more capable to defend himself, and he also knew what he was looking for, so there was also a point.
In HF Zouken and Assassin rules the "game", and there is also something (a phenomenon, whatever) out there that is theorized to not be Zouken, and also highly dangerous.

What should he have looked for in HF while walking around alone whith complete disregard to his friends and everyone else who rely on him?
The completely unknown? They didn't even know what it was, or even if there was a culprit to find, only that it was dangerous.
Heck, they didn't even know where it could happen, or even if it would happen again.

And at the same time the others are preparing for how to continue, and Sakura is ill and only getting worse.
Are you serious when you say that you would have prefered him to go all solo outside, selfishly ignoring Rin and Sakura, not contributing in anyway, and possibly getting himself killed leaving them alone?


And the situation is not even the same as in UBW and HF.
He did search for other masters in the beginning of HF as well, and Shinji was taken cared off early. Then people started to get assasinated and Zouken set his foot on the field, only to be followed by the unknown horrors and more and more information about the true nature of the holy grail war, and how it's not what it gives itself out to be.

[Anonymous No.]

bump

[Anonymous No.]

;_;

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Character 180 on Shirou's part out of basically nowhere. Doesn't follow the logical development from the previous two routes, and personally I saw him as borderline evil.

The 'true' ending made no sense. The whole route goes ON AND ON about WOAH MAN YOU ARE GOING TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES FOR ABSONDING YOUR IDEALS? Does he? No. We get a deus ex machina ending. Wonderful. Save that shit for the 'good' endings.

Generally, it was an interesting idea, but to be complete it really had to have a route for how things would play out if Shirou did not abandon being a Hero of Justice(Official translation now motherfuckers) in the park. As it is, I felt like I'd been forced into it and didn't like it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6205940
>Hero of Justice

[Anonymous No.]

>>6205940

>The 'true' ending made no sense. The whole route goes ON AND ON about WOAH MAN YOU ARE GOING TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES FOR ABSONDING YOUR IDEALS? Does he? No. We get a deus ex machina ending. Wonderful. Save that shit for the 'good' endings.

Actually it was more like spitting in the face of everyone who thought something disastrous would happen if he abandoned his ideals.

Remember, in UBW? Something disastrous happens if he FOLLOWS his ideals. Que Archer.

[Anonymous No.]

The route had it's manly moments.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6205992
But that's my problem, they really shyed away from showing any of the bad stuff that happens if he abandons them.

Firstly, Sakura would and did continue killing people. You never hear of this again. Shirou's mind and body are utterly destroyed. He magically gets put into a doll which was never even considered to be possible beforehand and doesn't even make sense.

And this is just a personal gripe, but I felt much more railroaded in this route than the others. The reader is constantly presented with choices which allow them to 'do the right thing' and kill Sakura/save saber/defend ideals etc. However, if you do these things you either get out of nowhere deaths or a bad ending. It seemed like they were trying to make us feel responsible, but in reality I just felt like the story was presenting me with options but not letting me pick the ones it didn't like.

That's why I personally didn't like it.

[Anonymous No.]

Because it's not Illya End

[Anonymous No.]

>>6206038

>He magically gets put into a doll which was never even considered to be possible beforehand and doesn't even make sense.

Even in the story, that is an application of the Third Sorcery, "Heaven's Feel". That is to say, it does not have to make sense, because Sorcery ignores the rules of the world.

>The reader is constantly presented with choices which allow them to 'do the right thing' and kill Sakura/save saber/defend ideals etc. However, if you do these things you either get out of nowhere deaths or a bad ending

That's because that's how it goes. Any Shirou who wants to live up to his ideals in this route tends to die, because that ideal can't fit in this route.

>but in reality I just felt like the story was presenting me with options but not letting me pick the ones it didn't like.

You can just stick with a bad end that you like. All 45 ends are canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6206038

Seconded.

Much of HF was Nasu trying to force the reader to agree with his own shallow nihilism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6205940
>but to be complete it really had to have a route for how things would play out if Shirou did not abandon being a Hero of Justice
But there was.
There was the Mind of Steel ending.

But you have to understand, that Shirou did not, not abondon his ideal in that ending.
He only turned his mind into steel in order to lessen the damage to his ideal, but it's not as if his ideal made it. And so he became the kind of hero that sacrifices the few to save many, but that is not his ideal.

HF is a route where Shirou's ideal breaks no matter what.
>A super hero
>Someone who will not harm anyone
>Someone who will not retreat no matter what disaster he may face, someone who can save everyone.
To not abandon his ideal in the slightest, he would have had to save both Sakura and everyone else.
But the truth of the situation is that he couldn't. He wasn't capable of saving Sakura swiftly enough for there to not be more casualties, but if he were to not abandon his ideal he couldn't sacrifice Sakura either.

Archer himself, in UBW explained how the number of seats called happiness are limited, and how he quickly killed the ones who would eventually fall out in order to minimize the damage.
And he meant that it was impossible to save everyone and that this is the only way to save people.
This of course furiated Shirou, who really wanted to save everyone.

The main difference between Archer and Shirou here is how Archer has "matured" to the point where has "abondened" the ideal, and have instead grown into a realist, focusing on how to achieve the closest result possible as the desired result is an impossible one.
Wheras Shirou doesn't accept just about anything. Shirou does want the desired result, but to him there are methods classified as "unacceptable".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6206925
This is also part of what drew Archer mad. Their ideal was to save to save everyone. No was to be sad. But as mentioned previously, Archer grew to become a realist as he was pushed into difficult situations. But he held on to it in hopes off a better possible future result, but it was never something he wanted to do.
To kill those who would eventually fall out was never something desireable, in fact he truly hated it.
And when he became a Counter Guardian, he realized that it was already too late. As a Guardian Archer lost the ability to make a choice, and he was seperated from the chains of time and forced to kill those who would eventually fall out, for eternity, never being able to save them before things got out of hand, or at all.
Archer explictly said while furious that he did not become a Guardian for such a thing.

That's why he wanted to erase himself, Archer opinion was that such a "hero" should have never been born.
It's true, he did became a hero, and he certainly did save people, but it was never the kind of hero they wanted to become. And thus Archer would have been happier erased, as opposed to being faced with what he called the ugliness of mankind forever, doing what he never wanted.

And while all this strikes deep into Shirou, Shirou counters this with a sort of metnality close to "Even if all of that is horrible, what is wrong with trying?! And even if it cannot be achieved, is it not beautiful trying to live up to that dream!?", something Archer had a hard time giving his respond to, because frankly that was still Archer's true feelings, he just couldn't stand the result.
Shirou wanted to try anyway, he didn't want the same end result as Archer, but he still wanted to try to actually realize their dream.
But keep in mind, while Shirou was faced with possible complications in UBW, none of them actually happened, it was all theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207045
In HF however, it's no longer theory. HF is a prime example to one of those moments when Archer had to kill one of those who would eventually fall out, and in this case that person was Sakura.
Neither Shirou or Archer ever wanted to kill these people, but Archer grew to do it anyway in hopes of never having to do so again, but that road sadly led to a path where he would always have to do so, for eternity.
Archer knews what kind of person Shirou is, naturally, or so he thought at least. He knew that Shirou, no matter what, wouldn't be able to do anything other than to kill this person who is about to fall out, in hopes of not having to do such a thing again.

But this is it really, and this has more or less to do with the climax of the entire route.
In the middle of the story, things have escalated, Sakura is found out to be a master, as well as the cause of innocents deaths.
And Shirou, who have instinctively suspected, or rather feared this (make notice how he had nothing real to base this gut feeling on) still didn't want to give up the hope of her having nothing to do with it, because frankly he cared for her, a lot (he actually loved her, which was obvious).
And this is also a major part of all three routes actually as it is a central point about Shirou as a character.
Shirou and the whole idea of love is a actually a bit complicated. Shirou have always been under the assumption that love has no place in his life, he has his goal to strive for after all. And also had trouble with seeing any attractive traits of himself at all, who could love an empty man who blindly strives for such an ideal? In the Japanese UBW chant he is even refered to as the man with the glass heart on top of the hill of swords.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207075
And as shown in UBW shirou have serious doubts on wether or not he is even allowed to have to have fun. He could be more or less satisfied, something he often likened with happiness, but he couldn't have fun.
All in all, Shirou didn't view of himself as a complete man, and together with his ideal, there was no room for love.
HF however, is the major block buster of all routes, and it puts everything upside down and all broken, leaving nothing the same.
HF is by far the most dangerous route, and people dies. And the combined results of all scenes are all up in Shirou's face about how relatively powerless he is, and how he isn't capable of saving anyone of the ones out in trouble. And in the middle of the story at it's climax, Shirou has almost been driven to utter madness as cause of all of it. But alongside of everything Shirou has also grown to love (remember how accepting love was a bit complicated for him in the previous routes as well), and love has been something that he has never included when thinking about himself before, and it certainly does complicate things.
And questions such as "Can I really love?", "Can I really be loved?" and "Am I even allowed to have love?" arise in the middle of the mess. And that's when he doesn't know what to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207090
And now, at the climax, in the middle of the park when shirou sits down all broken and sad, oblivious to what to do, Iliya makes her appearance.
And this seemingly pure, rather childlike appearance, Iliya who also happens to be kind of straight forward, openly declares herself to be Shirou's ally no matter what happens, and explains her reasoning while giving Shirou an actual lesson.
As a would would have done. she explains how even she knows that is natural to protect the ones you love, as if it's obvious.
And of course, Archer confronted Shirou about the situation shortly before and if Shirou understood what he would have to do, but make notice of how Archer doesn't despise Shirou for not being able to answer this supposedly obvious question. He doesn't despise him, but naturally he at least doubts him, the unexpected answer to that question was one impossible to himself after all.
And now, in the park, Iliya showed up, and with pure and honest reasoning declared something that would contradict the answer of the question Archer asked.

I'ts at this time, at the very climax that Shirou makes his choice between what is obvious.
In one choice, it's obvious, he cannot save everyone, so he is going to sacrifice one to save many, even if that person may be someone he loves. And if he succeeds no more should have to die.
And in another choice, it's also obvious, he cannot save everyone, so who can he save? It's only natural to protect those you love, no? Then that's it. And if he succeeds, no more should have to die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207097
A notable difference here though is how it may be harder to keep people from dying while following the second option, but at the same time, it's only natural to protect those you love, right? So it cannot be wrong to try.
And the toughest part Shirou has to accept here, no matter the choice, is how he cannot save everyone. He have already failed to protect his ideal, people are going to die, and the task at hand becomes how Shirou should respond.

So in the end, unlike Archer, Shirou didn't accept a sacrifice to save many, something that obviously hurt. But both choices would hurt, it was already too late for his ideal to come out unharmed.

And that's it, Sakura was given more priority in that choice, and as Shirou, as tough as it is, had to come true with how people will die no matter what he does, he cannot save everyone, therefore he will focus on what he can save.
And from here he gives his all, he embraces what is close to him, he won't accept to lose anyone, and with Zouken gone he believes that they can all be free.
And this is HF really.

And now if we go back to Archer. Later when they meet again, Archer does puts his hopes on Shirou.
It has already been explained how Archer already accepted the situation as one where personal grudges doesn't fit. And Shirou has by that point already shown promise towards defying Archer and his expectaions, naturally he still doubts him, but he puts his hopes on Shirou, hope that he won't end up as him.
I believe it is actually subtly implied that Archer in fact believed Shirou to be strong for not being able to sacrifice someone, wheras he may have considered himself weak for again and again compromising hid ideal repeatidly.

Personally I really don't see at all how people can interpret Shirou's character development in HF as a sudden 180, if people have followed the story that is.
Sometimes I almost wonder if I even read the same story as some.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6206127
...Now that I think about it, do the Sorceries exist in some form in the Kara no Kyoukai part of the Nasuverse? How did Touko transfer her consciousness from original/doll body to doll/original body? Or is it that her memories were being recorded and stored in the second body, but the second body had a mind that was a complete duplicate of Touko's as well, so that they had two different souls but still the same person?

[Anonymous No.]

What is wrong with this fanbase?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207184
Touko CAN *NOT* USE M-A-G-I-C

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207255
Autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207419
I wouldn't mind if they were autistic /jp/ers, but they are mostly /a/ shounen fans.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6206925
>>6207045
>>6207075
>>6207090
>>6207097
>>6207119
This is why I love fate stay night. But I believe most new to it expect some kind of action packed shounen story filled with fights and instead they get this.

And why did I read this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207448
>shounen
Please go back to /a/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207453
I hate that place and I don't really care for anime and I have never bothered with manga.
But I have been led to believe that most new people who read f/sn are from there, and they use terms like that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207119
>>6207097
>>6207090
>>6207075
>>6207045
>>6206925
Bravo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207278
I didn't mean that. I was just wondering if she somehow knew someone who, in the KnK setting, DOES have the ability to use the Third Magic, if she was able to figure out a way to do the same process without requiring the use of it, or if the process she used is something completely different.

[Anonymous No.]

If DEEN made a HF movie, would you watch it?
Or what if the KnK team made it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207685
Weren't there rumors about DEEN doing a Heavens Feel OVA?

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

>>6207685
Well ufotable is making a Touhou anime so yeah!

Honestly I don't like letting biases such as studio get in the way. I judge a product based on its own merit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207119
>>6207097
Still not seeing it.

"Sakura, I'll be your superhero".
Shirou became a realist unconvincingly. Why am I saying this? Recall that the reason why Sakura and Rin fell for Shirou was because of his ideals and determination: trying to get over a hurdle that was well impossible for his height. He knew this, but he kept doing it over and over until he couldn't anymore.
If you look at the chronological plot, Shirou's internal thoughts were angsting over whether or not to kill Sakura... "Do I really love her? Does she want to be saved?" He basically repeated the same questions over and over, and then suddenly rejects Kiritsugu's ideal,
"No, I don't accept that. There has to be a way to save everyone".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207685
Nine Bullet Revolver and the KOTOMINE KIREI scenes are all I would watch, unless they did the normal end, in which case I would watch that as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207709


I know that you're saying that there was nothing he can do, and I respect that, BUT, recall every other route and Shirou's past. He simply doesn't accept reality, he tries to make it through on his own; yet, his entire line of reasoning was to keep Sakura away from Zouken. When he realized that he can't do this anymore and people will die, he simply realized that he loved SO MUCH that he's willing to sacrifice thousands of other innocents for her. This is a critical moment and shows a jump of character considering that their relationship only had sex as a pretense, but I digress.

He became a realist, that's what I'm getting at, and it doesn't make sense. Love for Sakura? Finding out that Kiritsugu is just a bastard? Because Ilya SAID SO? It's funny how you say that Shirou had all these reasons to drop his faith, the ideal that held him together for 10+ years and made him what he was today, only to drop them on Day 8 (or 9) just like that. As far as I'm concerned, Shirou dropped his ideal because he apparently 'loved' Sakura, ignoring his entire reason for pursuing his ideal as stated in UBW.

It's OoC, and it's disheartening. If HF put Shirou in an even more extenuation circumstance, then maybe I would accept him forgoing his ideals. But, it didn't, and so, HF was ultimately pointless for me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207712
And the Kyrie Eleison scene.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207448
FSN is pretty shonen like even if it's not action packed.
Its development follows every staples of shonen, even in HF.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207712
I want to see animated Zelretch. Wonder who'd voice him for the few lines he has...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207726
Yeah I guess so.
But I meant it more like the action thing, in a combination with the shounen thing.
And because it follows these shounen steps I believe many people expect it to be action packed as well.

[Anonymous No.]

I didn't really like Sakura or HF, but good lord dat ending.

[Anonymous No.]

Sakurafags: Why you hate HF, anon?
Anythingelsefags: Well, it was terribly bad executed and...
Sakurafags: WHY ARE YOU SUCH MANCHILDREN THAT CAN'T REALLY APPRECIATE HF, LOOK, IT'S DEEEEEEEP!!
Anythingelsefags: You know what, fuck your shit.

By the way, I only saw the first 10 first posts and already know how it derailed: Sakura x (Rin + Saber).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207709
>>6207714
>"No, I don't accept that. There has to be a way to save everyone"
I believe we can at least agree upon the fact that killing Sakura wouldn't have been the way to go either. Because that is not a way to save everyone.

If there would have been a HF route where he would have done that, then I bet we could expect it to have been entirely different, and not really even HF by that point.
The way I see it, HF is a route where is ideal breaks down no matter what he does. By the point he realizes things, or enough at least, it's already too late for his ideal to come out unharmed.
Do you disagree with me on this?

But also, don't get me wrong. Personally I actually prefer UBW. I like HF I guess, but the harsh reality it imposes is a bit depressing if you ask me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207897
Well, if you do choose to try to kill Sakura at one point, you end up getting killed by Rider instead. So yeah.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207903
>Well, if you do choose to try to kill Sakura at one point, you end up getting killed by Rider instead. So yeah.
Isn't that beside the point though? It still wouldn't be saving everyone.

And then there is the mind of steel ending, where Shirou actually does kill Sakura, and continues on to "win" the "war".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207897
I disagree with you.
I'm saying that Shirou's transition from being an idealist (believing in his superhero ideal or its pursuit) to becoming a realist (saving Sakura and dealing with thing sthat occur life) is done poorly and using evidence from previous routes, it seems OOF.
Therefore, the entire point of the route fings hollow.

[Anonymous No.]

Jesus Christ, why are so many people STILL discussing this damn game?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207968
UBW soon friend.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207961
But the power of actually saving everyone was something neither Shirou nor Archer could do, in the entire known multiverse.
But you want something more in line where he blindly doesn't accept that reality, right?
I believe one of the major points of HF is how it was constructed in such a way that he had to do so.

In UBW Iliya died, and otherwise some people were hospitalized.
But the important thing here I believe is that in both Fate and UBW, he wasn't as powerless. Iliya died, but Shirou could still fight his fight in order to prevent further casualties.
But in HF he has doesn't really have that many options, and in all of them, people either die or are very likely to do so. In other words he is rather powerless in HF.

But if you read >>6207119 and >>6207045 can you follow me when I think he may not actually be out of character in HF?
I do believe there is a simple reason why UBW actually is a required read before HF, you get to know Shirou and Archer, and that is required knowledge in HF.

Could you possibly point out any of this evidence of yours claiming otherwise?
HF is a sad route for Shirou, because he isn't able to save everyone in it.
But I also believe Shirou is strong in a sense for being able to not sacrifice someone in the process like Archer did in similair situations.

I mean, you do understand that while Archer upheld their ideal his entire life, and for etirnity in the non-life, where he ended up in the end, was still not their ideal, right? But more something in line of an opposite in a way, considering how he was forced to kill people forever (as well as being showed the ugliness of mankind), because Archer never wanted to kill anyone.

I have problems seeing how Shirou's character developement in HF is out of character.
The way I see it he upheld the ideal's values until the very end, he just wasn't strong enough to protect it.

[Anonymous No.]

Is the route you prefer a route where he doesn't accept the reality that he can't save everyone?
And where he doesn't kill Sakura?
And where he somehow manages to stop others from dying as well?

I really wonder how that would look.
2 huge question marks pops up in my head at least.
First, how would he prevent people from dying?
Secind, if/when people do start dying, how would he respond without being "out of character"?

[Anonymous No.]

Is the route you would have prefered a route where he doesn't accept the reality that he can't save everyone?
And where he doesn't kill Sakura?
And where he somehow manages to stop others from dying as well?

I really wonder how that would look.
2 huge question marks pops up in my head at least.
First, how would he prevent people from dying?
Second, if/when people do start dying, how would he respond without being "out of character"?

[Anonymous No.]

>But the power of actually saving everyone was something neither Shirou nor Archer could do, in the entire known multiverse.
But you want something more in line where he blindly doesn't accept that reality, right?
I believe one of the major points of HF is how it was constructed in such a way that he had to do so.
And I feel that his 'jump' to that conclusion isn't natural given what we know about him from UBW, which I pointed out earlier.

>But the important thing here I believe is that in both Fate and UBW, he wasn't as powerless. Iliya died, but Shirou could still fight his fight in order to prevent further casualties.
But in HF he has doesn't really have that many options, and in all of them, people either die or are very likely to do so. In other words he is rather powerless in HF.
Yes, we have addressed that point already. I'm not arguing against that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208216

>But if you read >>6207119 and >>6207045 can you follow me when I think he may not actually be out of character in HF?
I do believe there is a simple reason why UBW actually is a required read before HF, you get to know Shirou and Archer, and that is required knowledge in HF.
And I have also addressed this as well. You're simply recalling events from the game without analyzing what is wrong with them. We all know how Archer was ultimately betrayed by his ideal. We all know how Shirou had to decide between Sakura and and the lives of many, how his 'pursuit of the dream' is explored in UBW. What is erroneous about the events in HF is that his conclusion that his ideals are not worth sacrificing Sakura for is poorly explained. I have already pointed this out.

>I mean, you do understand that while Archer upheld their ideal his entire life, and for etirnity in the non-life, where he ended up in the end, was still not their ideal, right?
It was their ideal, a form of it. Shirou's ideal in UBW is 'his' ideal, while Fate is the purest form of it. I am not sure why you're saying that it isn't theirs, simply because Archer felt betrayed by it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208043
1] I'm not saying that Shirou can save everyone. If you think so, you need to reread this discussion.

2] I'm not a writer, I can only critique Nasu's work. However, as I explained before, Shirou needs to be forced into a bigger moral dilemma in order to realize that his ideal is flawed, rather than:

"I love Sakura more than the nameless people in this city because our relationship is predated on sex, so I will become a relativist instead of an idealist".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6201998
>Why does everyone hate this route?

I don't. It just has a lot more glaring issues than the first two. The main being:
>>6202017
>I don't hate the route
>I hate Sakura.

I don't want to bitch about moral relatavism or retared deus ex machina plot devices and battle conclusions, so I'll just stick to Sakura.


I don't buy Shirou's love and devotion to Sakura. Not that the romantic threads in the first two routes were anything special, but in HF in particular they feel stilted and jarring. I couldn't imagine Shirou sacrificing a single innocent to save Saber in Fate (a relationship I bought more than ShirouxSakura), yet in HF, he's shrugging his shoulders at Sakura mudering hundreds of people, and going to kill a lot more, simply because he'd been balls deep in her the night before?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208579
None of the three major heroines is relatable, but Sakura's backstory is tragic abandonment cliché heaped onto contrived cruelty with an eye-rolling rape twist added just in case you didn't feel so, so very sorry for her. It's all so forced and wooden, that I just looked at her more as a plot device than a character.

The performance of Sakura is terrible. It's cloyingly bad, and comes as a blessed relief late in HF when she reveals herself as the main villain and begins speaking without that unconvincing, sing-songy breathiness. The voice actress plays tragic villainy well, which is my imo it's a shame they decided to go with that other voice for the majority of her screentime. (I have nothing against the actress. I liked her in Air Gear as Ton-chan. She was just miscast for the role.)

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

>>6208587
Different tastes for different people. Sakura wasn't my favorite heroine since I thought of her as a muggle for the other two routes, but I find her voice to be the most moe of the three.

For me, I found her really likable and sweet as a person, but she was "irrelevant kind muggle cute girl not significant to the plot oh wait she is but the VN is almost over already and I had already gotten a set impression of most characters"

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208223
>What is erroneous about the events in HF is that his conclusion that his ideals are not worth sacrificing Sakura for is poorly explained.
But this is one of the things I have tried to make clear.
>his ideals are not worth sacrificing Sakura
This makes it sound as if sacrifing Sakura would be something for his ideal.
But that's not entirely right, no? His ideal doesn't actually allow for her to be sacrificed.
With Archer and Shirou's ideal, people aren't supposed to be sacrificed in order to save others.
This is also why Shirou was so disgusted when Archer claimed that killing those who are about to fall out, quickly, is what it means to be Shirou's vision of the ideal hero.
But that is only because the ideal hero Shirou yearned for is weaker than Shirou wanted him to be.

>I am not sure why you're saying that it isn't theirs, simply because Archer felt betrayed by it.
Well, I did so because the end result he came up with, was a world where everyone are never saved, a world full of pain, and perhaps most of all, a world where he is forced to go against his ideal by killing people for all eternity even though he doesn't want to, or ever wanted to do so in fact.
"I kept being stubborn, saying that it will end this time, that everyone would become happy."
That whole sacrificing thing was actually never part of their ideal. And where Archer ended at, he was forced to do so forever.
Archer did become Shirou's vision of a hero, or perhaps rather, the closest thing to it.
Archer does say that he killed many people to act on his ideal. Yet killing is quite clearly against their ideal.
What is meant is actually that he goes against his ideal, in hopes of his ideal being realized in the future as a result of it.
But the sacrefices were actually made because Archer wasn't strong enough to save everyone.

[Anonymous No.]

So I can't really say that an end, where his ideal is never realized, and where he is forced to kill people for all eternity, his ideal.
That's why Archer firmly believes that it would have been better for such a hero to have never been born.

But in HF, Shirou clearly doesn't walk the same path as Archer, he never accepted the method of accepting sacrificing Sakura just because things got tough.
So in HF Shirou did was Archer was never able to do.
He wanted to put an end to it all by saving Sakura, not sacrificing her.
But the fear of what might happen if the cause is not stopped/sacrificed immediately is what scares them into being capable of doing these sacrifices.

My point I guess is that, how can it be out of character to protect Sakura when it is against their ideal to have her sacrificed?
In one case the sacrifice is Sakura, and in the other is eventual possible victims.
But sacrifices, no matter who, does go against their ideal.
Just like he wouldn't be able to protect these possible victims without sacrificing Sakura, he obviously wouldn't be able to protect Sakura by sacrificing her.
People fall out, the seats of happiness are limited.
Archer says so. Their ideal is a world where no one falls out, and if the seats are limited their ideal is impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

And because Shirou have to accept sacrifices in HF, either Sakura or possible victims, he accepts that people do fall out.
Then the whole priority thing is set in motion.
People fall out, he can't stop it, so in HF it's no longer a question of if, it's a question who.
And to quote Archer again. "A hero can only save those he sides with", and Iliya's "It's only natural to protect those you love".
In the end, Shirou chosed to side with those he love. People fall out, it's true that he doesn't want it, and if it has to happen he would like it to be as few people as possible, but people do fall out.
And in HF he chose to make sure that the people he loves wouldn't.

[Anonymous No.]

This last thing might summary the whole situation perhaps.
Archer says "If you choose another path, there will be no future for Emiya Shirou"
Then Shirou asks him if it means that he would die because of it. and Archer simply replies "If you equate self-imprisonment with death"
And this is obviously because Shirou would never be able to get over any casualties that could have been stopped by sacrificing Sakura.
But if Shirou actually does go on the path of killing Sakura, Iliya says this "I pity you Shirou. You are going to be deceiving yourself forever with that crying face of yours."
And this is the conclusion she came up with by reading through Archer's soul.
And it's obviously about how Shirou would never be able to get over Sacrificing those he love, and that includes Iliya and Rin as well as Sakura.

Considering this I can't see how it would be out of character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208243
I missed this post somehow.
Anyway.
>I'm not saying that Shirou can save everyone.
Yeah, I got that, I actually didn't think you did.
>Shirou needs to be forced into a bigger moral dilemma in order to realize that his ideal is flawed
This bigger moral dilemma, is as I see it the dilemma of sacrifices who goes against their ideal, that both Shirou and Archer was faced with (although Shirou wasn't faced with it in Fate and UBW).
You don't think that dilemma would suffice? It's a pretty big one, and in a central point of their ideal as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208243
I missed this post somehow.
Anyway.
>I'm not saying that Shirou can save everyone.
Yeah, I got that, I actually didn't think you did.
>Shirou needs to be forced into a bigger moral dilemma in order to realize that his ideal is flawed
This bigger moral dilemma, is as I see it, the dilemma of sacrifices who goes against their ideal, that both Shirou and Archer was faced with (although Shirou wasn't faced with it in Fate and UBW).
You don't think this dilemma would suffice? It's a pretty big one, and is in a central point of their ideal as well.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't like Sakura the same way I liked Rin and Saber.
But it is with Sakura that Shirou have had the longest relationship with, or even a relationship at all prior to the story.
Yes a lot of stuff were dumb, like the penis worms and cock cravings.
But I do still feel like Shirou ending up with Sakura as one of the most natural outcomes.
He was practically already borderline in love with her at the start of the story.
He already admired Rin but he didn't know her.
And Saber was beautiful but whe was otherwise completely new and an alien existance to Shirou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208762
>This makes it sound as if sacrifing Sakura would be something for his ideal.
Nope. It's a simple choice between maintaining his ideal or changing it so Sakura BECOMES his ideal.
"I want to be your superhero". I've said this time and time again, I'm not saying Sakura needs to be sacrificed, I'm saying that his line of reasoning to choose Sakura is not fleshed out.

>So I can't really say that an end, where his ideal is never realized, and where he is forced to kill people for all eternity, his ideal.
That's why Archer firmly believes that it would have been better for such a hero to have never been born.
In both Fate and UBW, Shirou realizes that his ideal is unsatiable and can never be realized, but he also admitted that he finds it beautiful. Why? Because the act of trying to act selfless all the time in order to save others is beautiful. You haven't proven that this isn't Shirou's ideal, only that he can't sacrifice Sakura. You've said this over and over and over, and we keep going in circles.
YES, I realize that he can't sacrifice Sakura, but
a] His reasons for choosing Sakura are 'wrong' and OoC. I'm not talking about whether sacrificing Sakura will go with his ideal, I'm saying that he dropped his ideal with little to no sensible development.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209009

>People fall out, he can't stop it, so in HF it's no longer a question of if, it's a question who.
"Who", being the main word. He chooses Sakura, because he loves her. He chooses Sakura, because he got Sakura sex days before. He chooses Sakura, because he claims he wants to spend the rest of his life with her.
Barely any actual conflict over his ideals over a simple, "Do I kill her and save others, or do I save her and screw everyone else because I love her?" were present. As I said before, it was all angst up until that day, then he got some smack talk about Kiritsugu and Ilya, then just said, "Screw it, I love Sakura."

>Considering this I can't see how it would be out of character.
And you never address my point. You keep saying that Shirou saw Sakura as more important than his ideal because he was faced with a contradiction more glaring than UBW and Archer got screwed. Did you not read anything I posted before on Shirou's past?

I'd rather you address my points directly, rather than going into tangent about Archer's future ideal (which isn't directly related to UBW or Fate ending) or how Shirou keeps getting contradicted.

>>6208841
>You don't think this dilemma would suffice? It's a pretty big one, and is in a central point of their ideal as well.
And I've pointed out, the only dilemma is:
Sakura vs Other people
Ie. sacrificing one to save many, which contradicts his ideal. Yet, he comes to the conclusion that he will make Sakura his ideal because he 'loves' her. This is a weak reason considering that like I said before, their relationship was predated on sex.

[Anonymous No.]

And one more thing before I go to bed:

You're not addressing my point that Shirou's decision is OoC, you're giving evidence that it's the only choice and it will happen no matter what because of the circumstances of the route. Archer, Ilya, Shirou's ideal of hurting no one yet saving everyone, you use these as reasons for Shirou to choose Sakura, but it's more than that. There needs to be a set of logical connections powerful enough to sway someone who has been shown to do everything for his ideal and simply him realizing that his ideal won't work and changing his mind does not suffice. This is obviously off-tangent to my original point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209009
>I want to be your superhero
Shortly put.
Him being foremost Sakura's superhero doesn't have to mean that he doesn't care anything about his ideal.
He still doesn't want other people to get hurt.
Him being her superhero is mostly just that he would always protect her and never give up on her. But that doesn't mean he doesn't care about other people.

Archer says that Shirou have lived up until now to let people live (that actually includes Sakura).
And asks Shirou if he can discard everyone to save one person.

But if we are talking about what is in character here, Archer is really the one deceiving himself.
"You are going to be deceiving yourself forever with that crying face of yours." /Iliya
And while she said that to Shirou (after having read Archer's soul), that is actually Archer.
Archer is deceiving himself forever with a crying face.

And just like Archer asked Shirou how he can discard everyone to protect Sakura, Iliya can in fact ask Archer how he can sacrifice a loved one to save others.

When he realizes he can't save everyone.
The answer Shirou arrives at while chosing to sacrifice Sakura, is that the majority must be saved and that a sacrifice is necessary.
The answer Shrou arrives at while chosing to protect Sakura, is "It's a matter of course to protect the girl you like. Even I know that, Iliya," and that he cannot accept a sacrifice.
Neither of them are really out of character.
Both have good grounds.
Emiya Shirou is a person that cannot stand people dying, but he is also a person that is real bad at making sacrifices.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't hate Heaven's Feel. It had a lot of concentrated manliness whenever they happened. It's just people are being faggots because of Sakura's sluttiness and the cooking spree.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209013
>You keep saying that Shirou saw Sakura as more important than his ideal
I am really trying to say that protecting Sakura doesn't outright go against his ideal.
And thus She doesn't need to be either more or less important than the ideal.

Both protecting and sacrificing her has strong points and outright flaws when put up against the ideal.
And because of that it allows the situation to become more a thing about priority and preference, rather than right or wrong.

>the only dilemma is:
>Sakura vs Other people
And here we differ.
I claim that there is also a dilemma within his ideal itself, or rather tjere are possible contradictions that can come out of it while not realized.
The idea being wether or not sacrifices are acceptable at all, and wether or not "quantity" has priority over that matter of principle.
This is why I brought Archer up, because of this dilemma.
This was also Archer's big dilemma, and this shows that it's not only about Sakura.
Archer accepted sacrifices because he wished for never having to sacrifice anyone again by doing so. But instead of never having to sacrifice anyone agian, he was instead forced to sacrifice people forever.
And that's why he despised it all so much, he didn't sacrifice people only to have to sacrifice more.
That's why he is deceiving himself forever, he is terrible at sacrifices, and so is Shirou.

[Anonymous No.]

>This entire thread

Oh man. I guess that's the sign of a good visual novel if it always entices discussion like this, but I don't know if I could ever participate in them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209064
You aren't doubting that he actually loved her, are you?
Zouken and the penis worms made all that horrible, yes.
And one too many sex scenes with that as it's excuse.
But out of all of them, Sakura was the one he had the most natural relationship, also the longest, and at the start of the story also frankly the strongest.
He was more or less already in love with her when the story had started, and then I mean actual love, not simply that kind of admiration he had towards Rin before getting to know her, or being struck with awe when faced seeing Saber for the first time without knowing her.
He actually knew Sakura, and while Sakura had hidden huge parts of her life to him, Shirou still knew Sakura pretty real good.
And to trigger the HF route you are actually required to spend more time with Sakura than in the other routes, and while doing so and as the story continues any other bits he didn't knew about her falls into place.

Sakura wasn't my favorite heroine, but outside of the horribly bad elements such as penis worms and rape, their relationship was the one who felt the most natural to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209237
And as said, he was more or less already in love with her at the start of the story.
But there were also that issue how Shirou first needed to accept love for himself.
And the issue of wether or not he is even allowed to have love.
And as I mentioned in my previous posts, this issue was present in the previous routes as well.
But it is also what undermined his relationship with Sakura the most.
Without Shirou's issues about love, they might have already been in a romantic relation ship prior to the start of the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6201998
Because it wasn't Unlimited Blade Works.

Lancer died really quickly after being fuck awesome in the previous route. Rin was a bitch. Archer died too quickly. Gil was eaten too soon.

The only thing going for it was Kotomine and Ilya.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209237
>You aren't doubting that he actually loved her, are you?
Red String love.

>Sakura wasn't my favorite heroine, but outside of the horribly bad elements such as penis worms and rape, their relationship was the one who felt the most natural to me.
Funny, because Shirou basically stated that he only saw Sakura as a kouhai. He definitely felt a 'sister-brother' relationship with her in the other routes. Why did he love her all of a sudden in HF? Sex. Specifically, when he realized she had breasts. Their relationship started over sex, progressed over sex, then settled down. That doesn't sound like a good relationship to me.

>>6209229
A lot of FS/N fans are pretty bad, take Sudo for instance.

>>6209180
>And because of that it allows the situation to become more a thing about priority and preference, rather than right or wrong.
But it does. He basically ignored everyone else and the deaths (what, 300~ people?) just to save her. This is never brought up again, so it's safe to assume that he had forgone his ideal and become a realist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209229
There's just something about F/SN that just makes people wanna talk.
http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/tg/thread/11415383

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209319

>Archer accepted sacrifices because he wished for never having to sacrifice anyone again by doing so. But instead of never having to sacrifice anyone agian, he was instead forced to sacrifice people forever.
>That's why he is deceiving himself forever, he is terrible at sacrifices, and so is Shirou.
And this is why you don't get my point. Of course Archer got the short end of the stick, with an ideal like that, who wouldn't? We already saw this conflict in UBW, and it was shown that Shirou was actually pursuing a form of his ideal shown in Fate. To say that this ideal is simply forgotten by Shirou because it contradicts with Kiritsugu's original intentions is simply unnatural for Shirou.

>>6209111
>Him being her superhero is mostly just that he would always protect her and never give up on her. But that doesn't mean he doesn't care about other people.
All of those deaths in Fuyuki city, all of them were forgotten by the end and not a single sense of remorse was shown by Shirou. Also, he literally gave up on his ideal. He didn't make a compromise, he just dropped it for Sakura; hence, what Ilya explained near the ending.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209321
Honestly, what sets FS/N from other VNs for me is how a large part of each story focuses on the protagonist's philosophical struggles. Without this element, it'd be another generic action VN for me.
Strangely enough, a lot of people I've talked to hated the focus on Shirou and his ideal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209325
>He didn't make a compromise, he just dropped it for Sakura; hence, what Ilya explained near the ending.
That's just him thinking he might not fit to be a Super Hero, especially after the incident and the puppet body, not that the ideas aren't still important to him.
UBW and his ideal is an intergral part of Shirou he most likely will never be without no matter if he want it or not.
It can differ and change some however, compromises and alterations and all that, and in HF he couldn't use Archer's UBW, because it was a different world from his own (his UBW).
But his ideal did end up a bit differently by the end of each route. By the end of them it had always gone through some kind of change in all three of them.
But it's still important to him, it's still his ideal.

>To say that this ideal is simply forgotten by Shirou because it contradicts with Kiritsugu's original intentions
But this is it, I don't really think this is the case.
He pursued this ideal firmly until the climax, at which point he made some alterations to his priorities, but in essence he pursued the same idea.
He declares that he is going to be Sakura's hero, and that he is never going to give up on his loved ones.
And by the end of the story he might prefer to lead a more normal life, but you can be sure that he will still continue to be a superhero to his family and loved ones, and I believe, that if he could he would without doubt save others as well, it's just that his family and loved ones has precedence.
He is definately still a hero, and I can't believe he would have forgotten his ideal or wish to not to let anyone cry. a

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209319
>Funny, because Shirou basically stated that he only saw Sakura as a kouhai. He definitely felt a 'sister-brother' relationship with her in the other routes.

One constant, CONSTANT trait of Shirou is self denial. Plenty of scenes even in the first three days of Shirou realizing Sakura is a hot girl and him basically forcing himself to go "She's my friends sister she's my friends sister"

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209319
>He basically ignored everyone else and the deaths (what, 300~ people?)
>what, 300~ people?
WhereHe basically ignored everyone else and the deaths (what, 300~ people?)
I don't think they ever gave any numbers.
I was more under the impression that it was within the dozens.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209413
Come on, Shirou was shaking like a crack fiend trying to stay away from crack around Sakura.

And you know what would have made HF awesome?
<- That.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209319
>Why did he love her all of a sudden in HF?
This is why I mentioned that the whole issue about Shirou and love (that I also mentioned was present in all three routes).
The reason why he "all of a sudden" fell in love with her was basically because he slowly as the story went by got more accustomed to the idea of love being allowed for him.

And yes, I also thought the sex in HF was ridiculous and handled poorly.
But
>Their relationship started over sex, progressed over sex
You really do claim their relationship is shallow and nothing but sex?
While the sex in HF was handled poorly, there is one notable difference that stands out.

His reaction to sex in fate:
Woaw, take it easy! What is going on here? We can't have sex here (or even yet).
His reaction to sex in UBW:
Wait Tohsaka! I would love to have sex with you, but I would have preferred if our relationship would have progressed slower, more natural rate.
His reaction to sex in HF:
Well of course, you don't need to be ashamed Sakura, I have already realized that I love you.

Also make notice of how the first sex scene in HF is after he have had his moral talks with Archer and Iliya and decided to protect her, and realized that he loves her and that it was stupid for him to think that he shouldn't be allowed to have or give love.

Shirou obviously loved all three heroines in their respective routes.
But note how Shirou was far more comfortable with his relationship with Sakura compared with the others. Perhaps not that weird considering that they share the longest relationship out of the three and it being the one that has progressed at the most natural rate.

Shirou did without doubt love Sakura for real, and Shirou doesn't take sex lightly and is all stuck up about it if love is not carefully taken cared off beforehand.

But yeah, Sakura still wasn't my favorite girl, but I have to give them the "most natural romantic relationship" award amont the three.

[Anonymous No.]

To those running on about no remorse (and you can't use that card against Sakura, who clearly shows how effected she is by it in Normal End), it's hilarious.

Because if Shirou DID show some deep remorse, then he'd be a whiny emo protagonist with a too-perfect end. It's not like the opposite leads to some victory or satisfaction with you guys.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209319
>He basically ignored everyone else and the deaths (what, 300~ people?)
>what, 300~ people?
Where was this stated?
I don't think they ever gave any numbers.
I was more under the impression that it was within the dozens.

If over 300 people were killed you can bet that the local authorities, or even the antional authorities would have becomed involved, as well as the Church for hiding any signs of the supernatural.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209564
You're implying that they weren't. The damage to the school, the downtown light show in Shinto, and the damage left in numerous other battlegrounds were all taken care of by Kotomine & the Church.

And at game's mention, at least 100 people ended up being victims of the shadow--all of which were reported as disappearances.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209564
>Where was this stated?
>I don't think they ever gave any numbers.
>I was more under the impression that it was within the dozens.

No. An entire neighbourhood is eaten. Three hundred is a conservative estimate. And the word "hundreds" is definitely used to describe the number of people murdered by Sakura on that particular night. I'll try to find the the screen and cap it.

And even if it were only a dozen people, that still doesn't excuse ignoring their deaths because he's in lust with Sakura. (Still don't buy that either was in love with the other then, or now.)

>If over 300 people were killed you can bet that the local authorities, or even the antional authorities would have becomed involved, as well as the Church for hiding any signs of the supernatural.

Like how they became involved when what appeared like a tactical nuclear strike was released from the top of a skyscraper during the Fate route Rider battle?

[Anonymous No.]

A common problem with /jp/ers is that they see love and lust as too separate, opposite things.
That's a childish view at best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209642
Why so, oh apparently enlightened one?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209642
Shirou is very old fashioned with his view on love and women.
He follows old gentlemen values for crying out loud. The ones who actually follow that kind of stuff and not simply one part of it or two are like an extinct breed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209642
>That's a childish view at best.

They are not mutually exclusive, of course not, but dismissing an opinion as childish because you disagree with it is insincere.

Shirou and Sakura's relationship is based on mutual physical attraction (which is pretty much Sakura's default reaction to any virile male thanks to being tampered with), and Sakura's obsession with her senpai.

IRL, of course love springs from and is a part from relationships built on physical attractions.

But we're talking about a special kind of true love, so overwhelming and pure that it makes Shirou abdanon the ideals by which he had lived all his life - in a week.

Ignoring that I think their relationship isn't convincingly written, a common theme of HF apologists is that Shirou was in love with Sakura before the VN even begins (seen plenty of times in this thread).

If Shirou is truly possessed of this overwhelming, moral-changing, ethics-altering love, that simply needs affirmation and physical contact to bloom, I simply cannot accept his so easily falling out of this insurpassable love and into another love in the other routes.

I actually think of the Saber/Rin love as more the real deal. Real love doesn't require you to irrevocably destroy what makes you yourself in order to be embraced.

Call me childish (the standard retort against anyone that doesn't feel HF was well executed), but I just do not buy Shirou x Sakura.

I see what Nasu was trying to do, and he _may_ have pulled it off as a novel, but not in a VN, where the player ostensibly makes the protagonist's key decisions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6202195

You appear to have forgotten the interlude where TA and Zouken spot Shirou and Rin wandering around (without servants) looking for the shadow and TA says "why don't you just kill them already?"

They *did* try to stop the shadow, they just had no idea *how*. So, rather than rushing up to Zouken's house and getting themselves, attacking him and getting themselves killed, they just walked around the city trying to find Zouken and disturb him to prevent the shadow feeding.

>>6202632

Err, yes he did. He went around the town trying to stop the shadow.

You have to remember, though, that in Fate and UBW he knew what he was dealing with. In HF, they didn't have the *foggiest* clue what the shadow was, other than that it had something to do with Zouken.

>>.6206038

>Firstly, Sakura would and did continue killing people. You never hear of this again.

Lulwhat?

Sakura doesn't kill anyone post-HF. She wouldn't be able to live with herself if she did.

>>6206925

Exactly. The point of HF is that Shirou's ideal isn't actually *achievable*. Hell, in reality that's the point of the whole of FSN. Fate Shirou never realises it, UBW Shirou comes to terms with it by accepting that he might have to hurt people sometimes and HF Shirou comes to terms with it by realising that, in fact, he (like everyone else) has a hierarchy of people who he considers 'important', and he's not going to kill the person who means the most to him just because they *might* harm others.

[Anonymous No.]

I could make a lengthy post about why I didn't like this route as much as the other two, but I'm too lazy right now so I'll keep it short :

Sakura is a slut.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6210313
Except Shirou does kill someone at the end of Fate.
So either he is a fucking big hypocrite or Nasu fails at being consistent.

[Anonymous No.]

I never really bothered to play it. And one reason why: Sakura.
And after the manliness of UBW i called it quits.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209689
>Real love doesn't require you to irrevocably destroy what makes you yourself in order to be embraced.
Of course not.
But Shirou does in F/sn think back a few scenes where he thinks about Sakura, and how he thought about her then and how he thought about her in the present.
And we are shown how he repeatidly lie/fool/delude himself in ways for him to miss out on love, of course this applies to HF and before as well.

But Shirou and Sakura was the only relationship that wasn't rushed.
Shirou knew of Rin, but he didn't know her. And most of what little he did know of her turned out to be a close to a public mask.
Shirou had no clue what so ever about anything about Saber at first.
And you don't really build romantic relationships of that level with strangers within the manner of two weeks without it being rushed.
But even while disregarding romance, Shirou already knew Sakura, and had knew her for years.
He already knew her as a person, and he liked her as one and considered her to be a really nice and good girl.
What happened in HF was more in line of him accepting love over all, realizing that he loves Sakura, and then to consider her as an actual mate, rather than just a good, lovable girl. And so all the humping starts
In all other routes he first has to get to know them, then accepting love over all, and the humping starts prematurely. In Fate the first the scene was even before he has fully accepted love.
You don't get to know people in a week or two, let alone establish long lasting romantic relationships.

But yes, HF's romance was utterly ruined by all the blatant drama.
I still believe their relationship was still the only one that wasn't rushed in the same manner, and they were actually both ready for such a step forward by that point, despite the drama, and not because.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6210396
Shirou and Sakura was rushed, Nasu just told you "they already had feelings for each other, the end" and you are supposed to buy it.
All the relationships in FSN are badly executed anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209408
And his ideal now is Sakura. What part of this is so difficult to grasp? Hundreds of people died, and Shirou basically dismisses all of that because he saved Sakura. The fact that his ideal changed so dramatically (if he can even be said to have an ideal anymore) or that he became a realist is a simple conclusion given how he basically states that he chose to save Sakura. Sure, you can argue all day that Shirou never said that his ideals are no longer important, but his actions and internal thoughts are enough proof that he no longer believes in them.

>He is definately still a hero, and I can't believe he would have forgotten his ideal or wish to not to let anyone cry. a
See above. Also, what you're describing is being a realist, which is what I have repeated ad nauseum to the point that I want to strangle someone now. Shirou said that he wanted to protect Sakura and those that he loved; YET, he realized that he cannot save everyone. Instead of trying, he changed his views so that they are no longer idealistic. This was the entire point of the HF route, that Shirou's ideal is completely replaced. It wasn't simply 'altered' slightly to fit Sakura as you say, it was completely changed to suit his new views on life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6211717

>>6209500
>Perhaps not that weird considering that they share the longest relationship out of the three and it being the one that has progressed at the most natural rate.
You still dismiss my point. It's like you don't even read my posts at best, or that you simply don't understand them at worse.

Let's go over some things:
1] Shirou and Sakura had a long relationship in the past due to Shinji introducing them.
2] In UBW and Fate, Shirou saw Sakura as a kouhai, and aside from realizing that she is 'growing', doesn't give her the time of day. He's completely ignorant of her love for him in typical VN hero fashion, despite everyone else knowing her obvious crush.
3] In Fate, he still wants to protect Sakura, and felt terrible that Shinji, a douchebag but still her brother, was gone. It was obvious that he cares for her in a sister-brother kind of way.
4] In UBW, Shinji doesn't die, but Shirou also showed that he cared for Sakura because he stated bluntly that he wanted to protect her in the midst of the war.
5] Despite all of this, he was never romantically involved with her, nor did he realize he loved her, only that he sort of lusted over her.

God, I hate "FIELD TOO LONG LOL"

[Anonymous No.]

>>6211720


So.... what changed in HF? One scene. The scene that you conveniently keep forgetting: when Shirou puts her to bed for the first time because she's sick. What happened here? He pointed out that she had breasts now, that was a woman. This feeling of lust led to them having sex, to which afterwards, Shirou was like, "Oh gee, I guess I really do love her afterall!". As you can see, this relationship started BECAUSE of sex, since no other variables changed at all. Sakura is still around cooking for Shirou. Shirou is still be an idiot and not noticing her advances. Then all of a sudden, breasts -> lust -> sex -> epiphany.
As you can see, it's all handled poorly and when compared to other romances, it's just not developed. It's like Nasu wanted us to believe that this romance was real just because of their history; yet, this was discarded in other routes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6211722

>>6209564
>I was more under the impression that it was within the dozens.
Neighbourhood =~ hundreds. Talking about a city as big as Fuyuki, this is a logical assumption.
Either way, what does this change? Are you implying that if 5 people were to die, this would make sacrificing them ok and still be in line with Shirou's ideal?

>If over 300 people were killed you can bet that the local authorities, or even the antional authorities would have becomed involved, as well as the Church for hiding any signs of the supernatural.
Right, because all of the other crazy stuff happening in town such as buildings getting damaged and bright flashes of light illuminating the night sky are dealt with and investigated right? The Church, or Kotomine takes care of it all.

>>6210313
>Exactly. The point of HF is that Shirou's ideal isn't actually *achievable*.
Yes, we've discussed this. This isn't what we're debating about, have you read my posts?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6211755

>>6209642
>A common problem with /jp/ers is that they see love and lust as too separate, opposite things.
Nope, lust can even lead to love with no history between two people. What I'm saying is that Nasu expects me to believe that Shirou had this crazy love for Sakura all along, but just didn't realize it yet. This love, which is never discussed UNTIL they have sex, all of a sudden changes his life's ideal into a simple matter of saving Sakura. It's either bad writing or poorly thought out by Nasu in that he expects me to believe that this 'love' in the span of 4 days is this powerful and can change a person's ideal that he has relied on for 10+ years to shape him into who he is.

>That's a childish view at best.
Missed the point, point - your head, hurrr.jpg, etc.

>>6210396
>But Shirou and Sakura was the only relationship that wasn't rushed.
Not even going to read the rest of your post since everything I need to say has been said and I won't repeat myself 100 times ad nauseum anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6209408
>He is definately still a hero, and I can't believe he would have forgotten his ideal or wish to not to let anyone cry. a
> anyone cry. a
anyone cry. And if he could I bet he would help others as well.
(This apparently got cut off.)

>>6211755
Not that I think it matters, but it's noticable that this ayn't my posts, right?

>>6211720
>It was obvious that he cares for her in a sister-brother kind of way.
That never was my impression of it.

The reason why he forces himself to think of her as nothing other than his friends sister, is because he doesn't think he should consider her a possible partner.
The fact that he deems that there shouldn't be in such a relationship with her shouldn't have anything to do with how grown she is. I mean he wouldn't consider it more acceptable just because she is less grown.

So he have always forced himself to not to think of her as a woman in that sense.
But have instead described her more in lines of a hard working and increadibly devoted and admirable girl.
And while he could think of her more as a sister even so, I don't see what would have implied him doing so.
I simply believes he thought of her as a devoted and hard working girl, who happens to his kouhai.
And Shirou is overly helpful/protective towards all people, none the least towards women.
I mean, at the beginning he did that carrying crates work thing even though he didn't need to, as if by a family member.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6212918
In HF, Shrou does on several occasions compliment Sakura on how she was before the story started.
I belive it was obvious that he thought of her as admirable, though he didn't think he should/could/allowed to have a romantic relationship with her.

Shirou did admire her before before the story started, otherwise all those compliments would have been empty talk.
But because he on purpose withheld himself from a romantic relationship, he never interpreted those feelings as anything to do with love (or at least bit by accepting it.

In Fate and UBW he never thought of her in any special way, and then he got to know Saber or Rin, learns to accept love and got opened up before them first. Therefore casting off Sakura as a possible partner. So it's natural for him to end up with them and not thinking of Sakura even though he may have been the closest to her initially.

But in HF he never needs to through the whole get to know phase. Instead he only goes through this accepting love phase, and then unlike Fate and UBW, his natural conclusion to it was, I already love sakura.
And in HF Sakura is a lot more involved, and that's where all these flashback scenes are when he thinks back on her.
In HF Sakura are for several reasons far more on his mind compared to previous routes, even if ignoring him noticing her growing. (heck he checked out Rin's and Saber's goods before humping them as well either way). Combined with how he also has a considerably weak relation with Saber/Rin at that point, and how Sakura has been on his mind more than ever due to actually being involved (also in need of protection and help) coupled with their previous relationship, I believe it's only natural her to be the first on his mind when he starts to accept love.
He already knew Sakura as opposed to Rin/Saber. And Rin/Saber was on his mind exceptionally little in HF wheras Sakura was exceptionally much, having the stronger involvement (in HF that is).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6212918
>That never was my impression of it.
Oooooh boy. See below.

>Not that I think it matters, but it's noticable that this ayn't my posts, right?
Then why are you pointing this out...

>Shirou did admire her before before the story started, otherwise all those compliments would have been empty talk.
Nobody said he didn't admire her.

>In Fate and UBW he never thought of her in any special way, and then he got to know Saber or Rin, learns to accept love and got opened up before them first. Therefore casting off Sakura as a possible partner. So it's natural for him to end up with them and not thinking of Sakura even though he may have been the closest to her initially.
So.... you're saying that Rin or Saber heavily influenced Shirou? Saber's relationship with Shirou didn't change in HF, the only thing that truly changed was that the dynamic between them was skewered because of his choices [Shirou being more overconfident being one]. Besides, if you say that Shirou had always known that he loved Sakura, why didn't he exhibit this trait in the other routes? Sure, you claim that he met Rin and Saber first, but this only serves to cement the point that Shirou never had strong feelers for her anyways because he fell so easily for Saber. Shirou was in love with Saber by the 2nd-3rd day and his relationship with Rin was played up by the 3rd day. You're telling me that Nasu expects me to believe that Sakura means so much to Shirou that he would change his ideals for her in spite of innocent lives, only to become easily infatuated with Saber (which is a VERY surreal love) or realize that he actually loved Rin more?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6212998

>In HF Sakura are for several reasons far more on his mind compared to previous routes, even if ignoring him noticing her growing. (heck he checked out Rin's and Saber's goods before humping them as well either way)
Irrelevant. The thing is, Shirou's relationship with Saber started before the sex. Shirou was more awed by her fantastic and mystical beauty, as well as attracted to her selflishness, which drove him to love her. On the case of Rin, Shirou got to know her more and came to love her personality, how she was really 'just a girl on the inside, not a magus'. The sex and physical attractions came after; whereas with Sakura, it was the beginning of their relationship.

>I believe it's only natural her to be the first on his mind when he starts to accept love.
Love that came from sex. No matter how you look at it, Shirou's relations with the other characters should't have an impact on love, if Shirou had already loved Sakura for so long. The fact that the only thing that changes this view (in HF) is SEX with Sakura before actually getting to know her better only proves this.

Basically, you didn't point out why he felt more for Sakura. Sure, he got to know her better because she was sick, so he attended to her rather than Rin or Saber, but the mutual point of attraction lies in lusting after her. It is exactly what you said that I think that Sakura is not worth it for the Shirou of UBW and Fate to give up his ideal so easily on. Like >>6210401 said, the entire relationship of HF can be summed up like that. Nasu expects us to believe it because 'they had history', yet failed to properly develop that history in a manner that is consistent with other routes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6213004
>if Shirou had already loved Sakura for so long.
I have actually never said that he loved her prior to everything.
Only close.
He did admire her, and he did know her, or at least the parts of her she showed to him, but Shirou didn't knew anything was hidden.
I believe it's more so that he had the strongest foundation for love, with Sakura prior to the story.
That is, the stage of with love can grow/be built on.

But also think of how easily he took their first sexual encounter.
Now, Shirou commented and stared a lot at Rin's breast and Zettai Ryouiki throughout f/sn repatidly, yet he was utterly shocked when Rin proposed them having sex, even though he quickly went with it.
Fate's first was just crazy enough for me to not comment on it.
But he already felt comfortable enough with Sakura to not make a scene about it, when she confronted Shirou.

Yes I know he got to love Rin properly, their romance is my favorite after all. But only because he got to know her properly doesn't mean it wasn't rushed. They weren't exactly ready for sex at the moment of their awkward night.
But it was still proper, had they had a bit more time everything would have went as smooth as it could be and they would arrive at that point anyway, only later.
But their relationship was still good enough to survive it being rushed, that's gor sure.

But I don't think it's weird for him to have been more comfortable/relaxed with Sakura whom he have known for years rather than meesly two weeks.
But he could still have loved Saber and Rin just as strongly, even if he may have been a tad less relaxed/comfortable.

[Anonymous No.]

I might also add that I believe that towards Sakura, Shirou was foremost attracted to Sakura's devoting and caring nature, and I don't think Shirou had anything against her more selfish traits either.

[Anonymous No.]

One more thing also strikes me as a bit weird. If his relationship with Sakura is based solely on sex and her sexual traits. Then how come he didn't accept sex as easily with Rin and Saber? I can clearly say that he ogled at them his fair share in their routes as well.
Do you claim that he simply has some kind of sexual fetish that makes him find Sakura's body more twice as sexually arrousing compared to Rin or Saber's? Because I wouldn't buy that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6213191
>One more thing also strikes me as a bit weird. If his relationship with Sakura is based solely on sex and her sexual traits.
I'm not sure how to respond to this, seeing as I never even said this. I'm 90% convinced that you don't even bother to read half the things in my post; hence why I keep having to explain myself over and over to accusations such as this.

>>6213161
Once again, I never said any otherwise. Are you even reading my posts anymore, or all my posts in vain?

>>6213135
>That is, the stage of with love can grow/be built on.
Yes, I worded that incorrectly. My bad.

>But he already felt comfortable enough with Sakura to not make a scene about it, when she confronted Shirou.
Yet again, you don't read my posts. I'm not saying anything about comparisons to other routes. I'm simply saying that their relationship was based on lust; ie. he saw her breasts and realized she was a woman. If anything, this shows that it's even more OoC, since Shirou started the relationship on sex. The logical conclusion that one draws is that he was already infatuated with Sakura before, which was a feeling powerful enough to cause him to cave into his desires. This leads to 2 possibilities:

[Anonymous No.]

>>6213338

1] Shirou admired Sakura so much that he felt comfortable in having sex with her without starting a relationship. This is contradictory, seeing he never shows this in any other route; hence, their entire relationship starts on that rushed night of sex, which makes it unbelievable. You're basically agreeing with me that this means that Shirou had strong repressed feelings for Sakura before, which makes it all the more strange that:

2] He doesn't show this in any other route and is only present in HF because of sex. Logical conclusion #2: their relationship was rushed and not really explored except, "Hey, we have history. She cooks for me in every other route, but I love her now because I sexed her up", which leads to, "... The ideal is a contradiction of the self; and if you disagree, you get no Sakura sex." Are you really denying that this is a poorly written plot point? There is no other indication of the relationship changing at all even after he falls for her. You're basically saying that if Shirou were to have sex with Sakura in any other route, he would stop loving Rin or Saber because he would fall madly in love with Sakura, since the catalyst is simply sex, and you said yourself that he admired her strongly before. YET, if he admired her strongly before, why would this thing that can blossom into love and be strong enough to cause a drop of his ideals, be washed away with his love of Saber or Rin?

I am STILL repeating myself.... over and over and over and over.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6213362
>why would this thing that can blossom into love and be strong enough to cause a drop of his ideals, be washed away with his love of Saber or Rin?
We still have different views on him and his ideal here, no need repeating that.
I firmly believes that he became a different hero from Archer, one Archer couldn't be. But it's still, at the foundation, their ideal it all rests on, he have just rearrenged it some, but it's still essentially the same ideal.
Rearranging furnature inside a house doesn't quite make it into another house. What can be done inside the house is still within the boundaries of the house.

But about that love thing being washed away.
Perhaps I could put it like this.
I claimed that his relationship with Sakura initially had the best foundation of the three for love to grow.
Let's liken Shirou's love with a potted plant here.
His relation with Sakura might have had the best foundation for the plant to grow, meaning that once planted (Shirou accepting love), then it would grow the fastest perhaps growing into a big tree as fast as a day or two.
If we were to compare this with his relation with Rin, then it was a foundation where the plant had a much harder time to grow.
But near the end of their two weeks, it might have grown into tree as well, albeit a bit small one perhaps. But while it may be a bit small, it might have actually grown better, and be exceptionally strong for it's size and have good potential. But a bit small nonetheless.

But there is only one pot, so only one plant can be planted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6214090
In Fate and HF, Sakura's plant wasn't planted, and even if hers may habe had the best foundation to grow. What happens to plant that is not planted and is without without fertile soil and water? It withers off and dies, that's what.
In the other routes her plant wasn't planted, so it didn't get the recources it needed to grow, and instead it withered. That's why he didn't have any romantic feelings towards her in the other routes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6214185
>hence, their entire relationship starts on that rushed night of sex
I really do believe you should make notice when they had sex.
They first had sex on day 9 of the story, that's later than when he had sex with Saber.
And they had time to have done many things by then.
In HF, Shirou was involved with Sakura more than in any other route, for various reasons.
This made him think more about her, his old relationship with her and his current relationship with her.
But Shirou also learned the thruth about Sakura, her being adopted, her being a magus, her having been abused, and her hiding it all from him for all that time in fear him rejecting her.
This of course made him think about her even more so than he had done before, and thought about his relationship with her more throughoutly than ever before.
And he realized that he loves her. He already had a relationship with her, albeit not a romantic one, but a relationship nonetheless. And by analyzing this relationship properly, he realized that he loved her.
But that doesn't mean he accepted that love. He was still heavily in doubts over everything by that point. But then came the scene at the park, and Iliya convinced Shirou that while powerless to stop everything, he should give it his all to side with those he love, because that on the other hand is something he can do. And it's here that he accepts that love.
And then they have sex, but not until after a scene in the rain on the streets with Sakura, and one at home.

I really can't see how their entire relationship would have started on that night when they had sex.
By that point they already loved eachother, and had known eachother for years.

[Anonymous No.]

This thread is still here?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215685
The TM crowd are like that. And the movie was released as well. It's to be expected if anything.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou's love for Sakura is unbelievable. It appeared only in HF very suddenly. At least with Saber it's not that weird because they had just met, but he had known Sakura for years.
So the whole thing about saving Sakura no matter how many people die looks ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6207794
Anythingelsefags: Let's discuss Heav-
Rinfags: HURR SAKURA SUX SHES SUCH A SELFISH SLUT FOR WANTING TO LIVE AND ALSO A MASS MURDERER
Sakurafags: Killing Shinji and Kotomine doesn't make you a mass murderer. Learn to tell the difference between Angra Mainyu and Sakura. Also, I don't see you whining about Kohaku being a "slut" or Sacchin killing innocents.
Rinfags: HURR DURR SHUT UP MY ZETTAI RYOUIKI TSUNDERE WAIFU DOES NO WRONG SO SAKURA HAS TO BE AT FAULT
Sakurafags: ...Rin was a complete bitch and failure of a big sister in HF, get over it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215770
Rin was also a victim, she loved her Sister.
Stupid ass magi laws.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215770
>Rinfags
I love Rin, but I can buy Heavens Feel as well.
Why can't more people?

[Anonymous No.]

Rin is my favorite and Heaven's Feel is the best route.

But, of course, I value story over which girl gets Emiya's penis, so that may be why I think heaven's Feel is the best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215804

Rin barely even has any development in UBW. All her major character-defining moments come in HF... she just doesn't get jackhammered in that route.

Is that REALLY such a big deal to Rinfags?

[Anonymous No.]

It's not a question of idea, it's a question of execution and pacing.
HF was weak because there was about 5 hours where virtually nothing happened.
That's sort of shit doesn't make a good route, a good story should never ever bore you.

[Anonymous No.]

I can't really think of any specific scenes which could have been cut from HF, but it definitely felt slightly too long. Probably just because it was the last route, and also because it needed a lot of time to properly setup the conflict which the reader could see coming from a mile away.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215908
>Rin barely even has any development in UBW
She does get character developement socially and in terms of security and confidence in oneself. She also grows to be more accepting of her non magician life,
>All her major character-defining moments come in HF
It's mostly just repition of UBW, only executed differently.
She was of course swayed by how Shirou could have total disregard for rules and logic in order to strive for a desired result.
As they progressed, Shirou made her little by little realized that she could do the same. But this is not something that wasn't present in UBW as well.

>she just doesn't get jackhammered in that route.
>Is that REALLY such a big deal to Rinfags?
No.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215941
You wouldn't make a good editor.
There is a lot of thing that could have been cut down.
FSN didn't need 4mb of text at all, it's not a case of the story being too big but simply Nasu failing at condensing his text and bringing his points across simply and sharply.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6208745
>rescued only those in front of me, and destroyed many more wishes.
>I kept being stupporn, saying it will end this time, that everyone would become happy.
>>rescued only those in front of me
Why is Archer considered to be so different now again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215962
That line means more along the lines of he only saved the hostages and not the terrorist as well type thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6214090

>I firmly believes that he became a different hero from Archer, one Archer couldn't be. But it's still, at the foundation, their ideal it all rests on, he have just rearrenged it some, but it's still essentially the same ideal.
But you're wrong. I've pointed out that he DROPPED his ideals. He became a realist because he made Sakura his priority, to protect only what comes at him in life within his power. This is a huge change from his ideal of not wanting anyone to cry that he can see. If you still think that this 'ideal' has been just reprioritized, you need to reread the route.

>But there is only one pot, so only one plant can be planted.
I've also already addressed this haven't I? You say that Sakura and Shirou's relationship develop because he spends more time with her, and I even acknowledge this. I also pointed out that he really started to love because he noticed she had breasts, which is on the first few days. You're confusing what I'm saying, thinking that lust and sex are mutually exclusive. They are obviously not, so the turning point where Shirou began to recollect his memories of her was when he noticed she had breasts. First of all, I've repeated this countless times, stating that since the relationship started this way, it's technically shallow and not well developed. Then you go and claim that it was, because they had history and the lust is simply what motivates him to learn more about her, leading to true love. There is an obvious contradiction here (or two):

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216251

1] Nothing about their relationship changes. Don't delude yourself into thinking that. Sakura still does housework, still hangs around the house, still crushes in Shirou, and still acts moe moe. Nothing changes about their dynamic at all, except Shirou realizes that she had a shitty past. By this, you're saying that Shirou learns to love Sakura because of her shitty past, since nothing else changes.

2] As I said again, since nothing of their relationship changes, their foundation is always present and never 'withers'. It's not like their interaction changes in any other route, it's all largely the same. So as I posed earlier, if he had sex with Sakura just once, would he get an epiphany that he loved her all along? But then you claim that 'the plant withers'; yet, it has never actually grown in the first place. To put it in your tangential analogies: the plant was never there, it was always a seed. It cannot wither, it can only lay dormant until it is nurtured. You cannot (or chose not to) answer this question.

>I really can't see how their entire relationship would have started on that night when they had sex.
Explained earlier. I'm finding that you're just reading what I say word for word, but not making simple logical connections like Lust -> component of sex therefore he lusted over her and thought of her more as a kouhai, leading to more development, leading to sex.

This may be my last post, since it's very tiring have to repeat the same points while you misunderstand them, whether through my explanations possibly being poor, or you choosing to wrongfully interpret them. It's obvious that Nasu rushed the development of their relationship because he expected us to believe that they had chemistry before. If you can't buy that... then well... everything I've posted till now is useless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6215770
>Implying anyone in this thread hated Sakura and used that as a reasono for hating HF, except for one troll.

Good show anon, 3/10.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216251
>You're confusing what I'm saying, thinking that lust and sex are mutually exclusive.

Uh, well, even though you can have lust without romantic love, you're not going to be in a romantic relationship without lust. Doesn't end well.

Shirou noticing the size of Sakura's breasts is supposed to symbolize him starting to finally notice her as a woman instead of just as a friend. You're oversimplifying it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216272
>Shirou noticing the size of Sakura's breasts is supposed to symbolize him starting to finally notice her as a woman instead of just as a friend.
Yes... which is the reason why the relationship started in HF. That's my point.

[Anonymous No.]

No idea actually. Heaven's Feel is by far the best route for me. I am a sucker for damaged goods moe though.

[Anonymous No.]

It feels kind of a waste overanalizing something as dry as FSN that much.
Or is it because every developments is spoonfeeded that fucking much that you guys can overanalize it?

[Anonymous No.]

For god sake, in order to start HF you have to pick Sakura EVERY FUCKING TIME or it goes to UBW route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216291

So you're saying that the relationship is shallow because the people in it happen to find each other sexually attractive?

Uh...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216251
>I've pointed out that he DROPPED his ideals
How did you do that exactly? I am sorry if I keep missing this detail, but if so it has to do with me seeing their ideal differently to begin with.

>Someone who will not harm anyone
>Someone who can save everyone
If one were to summarize it in a simple way I believe one could simply say,
He wants to make sure people can be happy
He wants a world were no one have to cry.
Archer and Shirou both, said that this was deffinately their wish.
But if one were to be all nitpicky and distinguish their wish from their ideal for whatever the reason, I believe one could say that their wish is their desired result, and their ideal could be something more in line of realizing it and making sure it's possible.

Then how did he outright drop his ideal? He didn't want Sakura to cry, he couldn't hurt her to make others not cry. People were already crying, and he gave it his all to make sure his loved ones wouldn't cry.

Please explain how his ideal was outright dropped. The only difference here is quantity. And how Shirou didn't accept a sacrifice (that's also against the ideal).
If we are to take it this seriously then we might as well say that Archer also dropped their ideal, because he killed scores of people and didn't save everyone.

Their ideal simply says, to harm no one, and their wish was to not have anybody cry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216692
It doesn't outright say that they have to make sure that the least number of people cry, no matter the methods.
People were crying, that was already too late. Killing Sakura would save lots of others from harm, but that was also against the ideal, so if we are to turn up their ideal up to 100% that wouldn't have been an option either.

If Shirou "dropped" his ideal for chosing Sakura.
Then Archer likewise "dropped" his ideal for chosing everyone else.

That's what I mean about Shirou having gone through change, but still in it's essence having the same foundation. That is, the main pillars of their ideal.
And about the love thing.
I never once claimed that he didn't think of her sexually, I only claim that it isn't the base of their relationship. I really don't think Shirou is one to base relationships around sexual attraction, then he would have jumped on Saber and Rin without doubt in previous routes.
I believe I agree with what >>6216272 and >>6216487 said.
Shirou did say that he already admired Sakura for various things, and that he already thought of her as a good girl prior to the story.
Now that doesn't equate to love, but it's something.

Think of it this way. Shirou already admired Sakura due to her being what he recognised as a good girl among other things.
This admiration naturally triggers him into checking her out as a woman/posible mate.
He also admired Tohsaka, albeit it being indirect, and based on rumours, looks, and observations from afar.
And of course Saber who he also admired due to her chivalry and awestruck beuaty.
He checked them out good throughout their routes as well, no difference here. Shirou is not impotent, his junk apparently works.

But he also admired them, he didn't simply lust after them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216696
The same thing goes for Sakura. For one thing, Shirou explains how he admired her caring and devoted nature from when she attended to him throughout those years.
But in all three routes, Shirou is initially not that open towards love, it's hard for it to fit inside his ideal, and Shirou even has doubts about wether or not he is allowed to be happy, and I believe it's safe to assume that he had doubts on wether or not he could be a suitable mate.
Then, in all routes when he accepts love, the hammer comes knocking down.
Do I admire her? Yes.
Can she love me? I believe so.
Can I love her? I believe so.
And in the process he also checks out their goods, that's only natural.
A man is allowed to check out the woman he loves, without having a sex as the base. I don't think Shirou would so easily accept the sex part without having the admiration part already checked.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216692
By letting a few hundred people die and endanger even more?
What you are saying is just sophism.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou fall for Saber and Rin respectively in their routes without even thinking twice about Sakura.

Can't you guys fucking accept that it's a fucking eroge and that Shirou HAS to fall for a girl in each route.
Your "zomg let use lots of metaphore FSN is so DEEP" is getting pretty pathetic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216705
But what about sacrifices? Why are they ok just because it can prevent further harm?

There's actually a "villain" archetype who firmly believes that enough sacrifices can bring forth future salvation.
Now this isn't anything no where near that kind of scale.

But the point is, the methods matters, no?
Their ideal doesn't allow harm.
They only feel forced to do so sometimes because they aren't strong enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216479
>in order to start HF you have to pick Sakura EVERY FUCKING TIME
HF is more or less the route that would have been if he was more involved with Sakura.
If he hadn't picked Sakura EVERY FUCKING TIME, Zouken couldn't have done what he did and it wouldn't be HF.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216809
Shirou is sacrificing a few hundreds people for Sakura.
Even if he doesn't kill them himself.
Methods doesn't mean shit, I can assure you the people who died don't fucking care about all the moralistic shit and inner struggles.
End result = people died, that's the most important thing by far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216834
>End result = people died, that's the most important thing by far.
Yes, that is the end result of both actions.
So in either case, the end result would have been that people died, that is the most important thing by far.

And that's also the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216847
In both cases people die and people are saved.

The only difference is numbers.
But the principle is the same.

His ideal says that people aren't allowed to die, and that people should be saved.
If people died in both cases, and if people were saved in both cases, then I don't see how the ideal is dropped in one case wheras it's not in the other.

The only difference here are the numbers, but otherwise it's the same.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216847
The difference is one thing.
Shirou has all the cards, he just decide not to play them till the very end.

But of course everything works out for him in the end and the deads are never talked out again, Nasu really dropped the ball there, and let's not not even talk about the obvious contradiction considering Shirou harms and kill people even when he follows his ideal, which make his entire choice in HF seem really hypocrite.

FSN isn't even nearly as consistent thematically as you people think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216875

Really? Did you missed that his ideals are borrowed and he pretty much only acts that way due to how he survived the fire?

He might had adopted Kiritsugu ideals and made them his but they did not come from him, also its pretty damn clear were such ideals will lead looking at how Kiritsugu ended up and if that managed to get missed, we had Archer to reminds us were that leads.

Also missed the Kotomine "rejoice for your dream will come true"? that is the first indication that ideal on itself is a contradiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217075
You are talking about something else entirely, even if Shirou borrowed his ideal, it was still something he followed.

Remember when Shirou killed Kotomine at the end of Fate, did he even think twice about it?
Did he have a moral dilema or something?
That's the weakness of Nasu's narrative.

And what about the few hundreds people who died in HF? Was their case ever talked about in the end?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217144
While you replied to me >>6217075 wasn't me.

Either way.
>even if Shirou borrowed his ideal, it was still something he followed.
Yes I know, I don't think it matters, it's something he made his own, doesn't matter if it's an adaptation. Archer brought it up however because it might point out that his ideal has/had a shallow ground.
But there is no mistaking he made it his, that reality marble of theirs isn't just for show.

>And what about the few hundreds people who died in HF? Was their case ever talked about in the end?
Salira was also heavily affected by it in during HF and throughout towards the end as well, but Shirou repeatidly said that she shouldn't worry about it.
Sakura was still heavily affected by it in HF's normal end when Shirou wasn't there to repeatidly say that she shouldn't worry abou tit.

I bet Shirou is in great pain that they died on the inside, but I don't think he thinks it's healthy to unnecessarily worry about things of the past.
You don't see him bring up the fire incident repeatidly unless it's triggered by something. (Kotomine, the nature of the grail, Archer, etc etc).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217241
And I seriously don't quite know his views of Kotomine.
He is no ordinary person however, and he differs greatily.
Kiritsugu and Kotomine couldn't be happy, and they had distorted emotions.
Kiritsugu could however learn how to yet again be happy.

Kotomine never was, and it's an alien concept to him he cannot understand or feel.
And in Fate he outright said, that all he was after, was destruction because he was interested in what it might cause. And that he didn't have normal joy and that this was his "joy".

That stuff might have made it easier for Shirou, considering how he was a non-human freak in that regard.
But yes, that's still hypocrisy, but is really the path Archer took.
Though Archer sacrificed those who fell out off the seats of happiness, Kotomine was never even their and he couldn't be.
But yes, hypocrisy nonetheless, but in this regard, so were Archer's actions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217255
Archer when he had to kill people to save others was really conflicted, it's something that destroyed him little by little.

When Shirou killed Kotomine, he didn't even think twice, he was never conflicted about this at all, no inner struggle, not even a mention or whatever.

From the way I see it it's just a question of consistency, Nasu just wanted to pull a nice final boss and hoped that his readers wouldn't look too deep.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217295
>When Shirou killed Kotomine, he didn't even think twice

That's because he had already thought about it earlier. Remember that choice, at the very beginning of the game, where you can choose whether to become a Master or not? As in taking a path that would necessarily lead to murder?

Shirou already made the choice long ago. Also, Kotomine was a monster who didn't belong in that world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217255
>Nasu just wanted to pull a nice final boss and hoped that his readers wouldn't look too deep.
Yes this is of course a possibility I won't deny, because it might perhaps really be the case.

But I am still not entirely sure.
Before Shirou came rushing at him Kotomine had his little speech where he differed himself from humans and basically made himself look like a monster in concept.
But Kotomine also questions this whole moral good/bad thing alltogether, but that most likely also has a connection to his condition.

I could see it as a slight possibility that Kotomine's speech was the last drop and that Shirou couldn't accept him.
But what do I know.
It might just be Nasu after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217364

The idea behind Kotomine is not that he lacks morals, but that his morals are reversed.

Because of this, you can't even call him a sociopath. The only thing you can call him is "fucked up".

[Anonymous No.]

Kotomine had more in common with the embryo of all the evils of this world, than with actual people.

I don't know where he would end up on the human/non-human scale.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217362
>Kotomine was a monster who didn't belong in that world.

That's called hypocrisy, choosing who decide to live or die.
For an example, there is a reason why Batman never kills the Joker, because he follows his own ideal of never killing, never putting himself at the same level as the people he is fighting against.

Also for the first point, Shirou decided to participate in the war while following his own ideal.
The whole thing with Kotomine's murder is just a huge fuck-up from Nasu's.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217501
I see that anonymous sees himself a lot in Kotomine or Batman. Or maybe both.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217501

It was a goddamn Castlevania joke, and furthermore Shirou's ideals necessarily encompass murdering people who would endanger others. That's the whole point and why Kiritsugu was a serial killer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217527
I got the joke, idiot.
And Shirou's ideal encompass NEVER KILLING ANYONE, NEVER SACRIFICE ANYONE which is the main fucking point of his conflict in HF.

And it doesn't matter if Kotomine is a serial killer, saying "I'll save everyone" and then killing someone is just hypocrisy of the highest level.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217536
>And it doesn't matter if Kotomine is a serial killer, saying "I'll save everyone" and then killing someone is just hypocrisy of the highest level.
But Kotomine is not really human? The same way Tohno can kill other "monsters". Doesn't Nasu love to play with monster= things that have no humanity. Ciel still got some humanity so it's wrong but she is still a vampire while killing his half-brother is ok because he's lost most of his humanity. I think Ryogi and Mikiya also say something along those lines.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217593
That's sophism once again.
Kotomine is a human anyways, just with warped values.
To continue the Batman thing, it would be like saying that the Joker isn't human because he is a complete psycho.
Shit doesn't work that way, you can't decide to expel someone from humanity just like this, otherwise a good deal of our humanity would be real monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217536
>NEVER KILLING ANYONE, NEVER SACRIFICE ANYONE

That's certainly not what his father's ideal was.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217625

It's what he WANTED, but was forced to compromise on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217536
The whole point of HF and UBW was that Shirou's ideal was a lie, it fundamentally could not exist as he conceives it. So it's not really hypocrisy, he just finally understood what his ideal really meant. He didn't go back on anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217642

Exactly, because saving everyone is an unrealistic ideal, which even Shirou is forced to recognize in, oh, every route.

Futhermore, because Shirou is pretty much incapable of planning, and because Kotomine was going to KILL EVERYONE, I don't think it's entirely unrealistic that he would forego the less than realistic part of his ideal and kill the man threatening to destroy the world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217651
That's not the problem.
The problem is that when he did kill Kotomine, he never ever thought about the conflict, no inner struggle or whatever.
That's the problem of consistency.

Even if his ideal was flawed, he was following it anyways, so the moment of the conflict, when he would have to realize that he would have to kill, you'd think there would be some sort of inner struggle or whatever.

So you have 2 choices, either it's a fuck-up from Nasu or Shirou is a fucking big hypocrite who can decide who can live or die despite saying "I'll save everyone".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217664
Honestly, having a conflict of ideal scene there would have pretty much ruined the scene's momentum.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217667
Yeah, that's the problem, Nasu decided to go with the cool final boss scene while hoping that the readers wouldn't look too deeply into it.

Doesn't change the fact that it fucks up the narrative.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6217664
>Shirou is a fucking big hypocrite who can decide who can live or die despite saying "I'll save everyone".
Yes, that's it. Other than how Kotomine, in Nasu's works, are portrayed as something not human.
And in Nasu's world, those things seem to be ok to kill.

But if that doesn't fly with you, then he is a huge hypocrite by the end of Fate.
But in HF Kotomine died from not having a heart. (But Shirou was stil prepared to kill him because he wasn't human).

Like some other anon mentioned.
This whole thing about humanity and things not human, is sort of a recurring theme in his works.

Even Archer deemed that Shirou was a broken man and not Human enough to ever be able to live a life not ending up where he ended, a place that forever contradicts their ideal.
But he was proven wrong in HF. He obviously didn't thought Shirou had the guts to not sacrifice someone, despite of what might happen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218004
But as I said. If that doesn't fly with you, then he is a big hypocrite.

Kotomine is however, the only "human" Shirou has been prepared to kill.
Other than when he ventured on the Mind of Steel path.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218004
>And in Nasu's world, those things seem to be ok to kill.
That's just your perception, and a perception that doesn't really make sense in FSN.
If anything with all the "Kotomine and Shirou are 2 faces of the same coin", the fact that they by their own admission could have been friends and that they can really understand each other, I think Nasu didn't try to make him pass as a complete monster.
He is someone with completely warped values, but there is absolutely no place in the game that goes "oh since he is kinda psycho he is a monster so it's okay to kill him".

In HF Shirou facing him make sense, especially considering he was already dieing and Shirou knew it, it was more of a battle of values than anything.
In Fate though? It's a complete fuck-up from Nasu's.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218154
>In Fate though? It's a complete fuck-up from Nasu's.
That's what I believe I would personally call it.

But I do believe Nasu's idea was that Kotomine was in-humane.
And while it was Urobuchi who Fate/Zero, they explained him as being born with some fuck up that makes it impossible for him to have those feelings.

And they never really let go of that "impossible" part either, because they explained how he differed from Kiritsugu in that regard.

Kiritsugu is the man warped values, Kotomine is one who simply never had normal values, and who can't have them.
Or so they explained it as.

So I bet this was their idea/view on it.
But otherwise it can't come off as anything other than a fuck up on Nasu's part.

And that's what I meant by it being hypocrisy if that sort of thing doesn't fly with you.
Because if that isn't it, then I can't see it than anything other than hypocrisy in Fate.

But even if that was the case, if so Nasu made a fuck up in making it clear in the novel, and not his novel + every other work of his combined.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218263
>they explained him as being born with some fuck up that makes it impossible for him to have those feelings.
That's just being a schizoid or something similar.
Sorry but I don't think people like this are inhuman, they are just different sort of human, casting them off humanity just because they are different is pretty fucking cruel.
If you begin like this, then you can also say that someone who doesn't have the same values as you isn't human, that someone who doesn't think the same as you isn't human, where do you stop?

If that's really what Nasu wanted to convey, then it's a really shitty message.

[Anonymous No.]

Well, if you guys want to get technical, Shirou didn't really kill Kotomine, he just sort of pushed him into the grail mud, and therefore Angra Mainyu killed him.

But seriously, though, Shirou says all along he was willing to defend himself, and quite frankly in that situation it was either kill or be killed, and doesn't Shirou sort of try to get Kotomine to stop before Kotomine flings some of the mud at him?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218281
>Sorry but I don't think people like this are inhuman, they are just different sort of human
I would say the same.
But, characters different from humans in terms of not being able to do something "normal" for whatever the reason, as opposed to having grown to have some ideas that can in theory be dropped, have on several occasions been called as more or less inhuman depending on things in his works.

Make out of it whatever you wish.
Kotomine himself though,had some sort of logic reasoning he shared with Shirou that explained how there is no such thing as good and evil at all.
And well, if you really want to take that in, then none of them was wrong.
But then the "ordinary" human does have morals, in one form or another.

But I don't think it was some sort of thing he wants to convey, I just think it's a reaccuring theme he has where "evil" people are "ok" to kill just because (they "aren't" human).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218321
>and doesn't Shirou sort of try to get Kotomine to stop before Kotomine flings some of the mud at him?
I believe so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6216692
Did you happen to miss everything I've said about what a realist is? I'm not even going to quote this anymore, go back and find it in this gigantic mess since I must have said so at least 5 times.

>Their ideal simply says, to harm no one, and their wish was to not have anybody cry.
Their ideal was to not harm anyone, to save everyone and prevent them from crying within their view. In HF, he applied this ideal to only Sakura, and realized that he can only do this within a certain extent of his power, which excludes people in outstanding circumstances. Refer to above for the name of this type of belief. All you're doing is taking strawmen arguments and attacking them on the basis of referencing Shirou's ideal. I'm tired of this fallacy, I really am; please stop doing this since it adds nothing to the debate except my copy pasting.

>>6216696
>He checked them out good throughout their routes as well, no difference here.
Answer my question. Do you think that if Sakura were to have sex with Shirou in the other routes after he had loved Rin or Saber, would he dump them because of the history he has with Sakura, leading him to realize that he truly loves her all along because of their history? 3rd time asking, still looking for answers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218752

>>6216702
>But in all three routes, Shirou is initially not that open towards love,
Not really. He is awkward with it, but he's never at the point where he's not open to it. He just doesn't think that he can be happy because of his burden and you are intepreting this as him not being able to have love. You need to replay Fate if you think this.

>A man is allowed to check out the woman he loves, without having a sex as the base.
You're missing the point again, this has nothing to do with my argument.

All you're doing is drawing irrelevant facts from Shirou's ideal, and attacking a strawman that basically consists of, "But his ideal was flawed anyways; thus, it got prioritized but never actually changed!" and "Girls from other routes held a physical attraction to Shirou, it's no different from Sakura!".
First, you ignore relevant points I make for som reason. Then you started citing sources of FS/N that on Shirou's ideal despite the fact that they don't have direct bearing on our debate since I was talking about how his ideals changed, not how they were unachievable. Now, you're drawing strawmans from my arguments to support your views on Sakura by claiming that Shirou's attraction to other girls have similarities with Sakura?

I'm done here. I'm seriously going to stop responding to your circular logic.

>>6216809
>>6216847
>>6217075
I guess you don;t realize what being a realist is. Shirou didn't change his ideal in terms of numbers, he abandons them because he realizes the world does not work that way. I'm [|||||| ] this far away from getting screencaps, but having to reinstall the game is preventing me from doing so.

[Anonymous No.]

I never knew how the fuck Shirou was able to defeat dark Bereseker. It don't make much sense. So he get archers arm and suddenly can kill much stronger than normal berserker, with archer himself couldn't kill? He was to imba in this route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218836
God Hand was pretty much neutralized, and Dark Berserker was pretty much weaker than standard Berserker. Being blind didn't help as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218844
ow always thought dark ones were stronger well me mistake

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218850
Well, that's just the general consensus, not word of god or anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218856
Physically, Dark Berserker was stronger. Howewer, he lost his lives, and was blind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218862
didn't he have 9 lives? Didn't shirou killed him 9 times with 9 sword-axes in 1 throw? Man i should play this game again

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218836
Berserker could have killed Shirou, but he hesitated when he sensed Ilya or something, so Shirou killed him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218877
Dark Excalibur all but wiped his lives out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6218752
>Answer my question. Do you think that if Sakura were to have sex with Shirou in the other routes after he had loved Rin or Saber, would he dump them because of the history he has with Sakura, leading him to realize that he truly loves her all along because of their history?
>3rd time asking, still looking for answers.
Well, it's actually my third time answering.
I already said no, of course not. He wouldm't have sex with Sakura in the other routes because he would never start to love her because he grew to love the others and realized it before he fell for Sakura.

When it didn't go with you the first time I likened the whole thing to these plants as I thought it might possibly help you as it didn't work the first time.
In the other routes, Sakura's plant was never planted.
It doesn't matter if it's the plant that grows the fastest, when not planted it doesn't grow at all.
Besides, the others' plants were planted in their respective routes, and because of it he would no longer think of other plants because one already got his attention.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220533
>>But in all three routes, Shirou is initially not that open towards love,
>He just doesn't think that he can be happy because of his burden and you are intepreting this as him not being able to have love.
That actually isn't the case, though I thought it was similair.
I inepreted the fact how he is completely oblivious towards love and any social related to it for the vast majority of the first parts of the stories.
Like when Issei points out how it was odd for Rin to smile at him, only to completely miss the point.
How he continuously missed any advances Sakura tried to do over the years that more and more made her think that she perhaps was no good.
All the scenes like these.
I guess this is why people assume that Shirou is increadibly dense and stupid, but it happens to be the case that Shirou is only oblivious like this when the topic is love, directed at himself.
It's also a flaw that disappears through character developement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220535
>Their ideal was to not harm anyone, to save everyone and prevent them from crying within their view.
This allows sacrifices, how?
>In HF, he applied this ideal to only Sakura,
>and realized that he can only do this within a certain extent of his power,
But this is it. I don't see this outright difference here.
If you say that he only applied his ideal to Sakura in HF, then Archer and Mind of Steel Shirou only applied their ideal to everyone but any sacrifices.
That is, because everyone is outside the extent of their powers, and only everyone but a few select sacrifices is within their power.
>which excludes people in outstanding circumstances.
Otherwise he would have excluded the sacrifices, that's what Archer and Steel of Mind Shirou did.
Keep in mind that these sacrifices are people, they are a part of everyone. And no one is allowed to be harmed.

Archer never wanted to kill people, but he felt forced to because anything else wasn't within the scope of his power. So he went against himself and accepted sacrifices, only to hope it would never be needed again.

In both, some are chosed and some are left out.
The only difference are the numbers, and who.
It's not like he ever had the power to live up to his ideal.
But yes I know that's beside the point, but the this is that whenever they can't, and are faced with a choice, both Archer and Shirou had to make choices on who to die and who are to be saved.
Chosing some and excluding others.
They both did that.

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/ sure can discuss TYPE-MOON.

[Anonymous No.]

HF is bad because it's fucking boring 70% of the time.
No matter the theme, the message it tried to convey or whatever, the execution is always the most important thing and the only thing Nasu managed to do during most of the route was bore the readers.
That's all.


And goddam at you guys analyzing this shit that much, I know that FSN is very accessible to wanabe analysts since every little shits is repeated countless times till even the most retarded readers get it and feel smart for doing so but it's getting out of hand.
Bet you think it's the only VN worth analyzing too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220567
Shirou and Archer as characters are actually special, and woth of analyze in some degree.
You may say that Nasu spoonfeeds everyone, and that may be true, for most part. But people still obviously come to different conclusions on some parts, that's why discussions can be held.
And while the "save everyone" archtype may be common, few authors take it as far as Nasu did, and Archer himself is actually a nice character who have gone "To infinity and beyond!" only to come back and argue with and feed the fire that is "save everyone!" that is his younger self.
And yes, the story may or may not be intepreted as bad, but it does have something not commonly found in other stories, that's why it has some worth in being analyzed.

And his works as a whole are often being analyzed, perhaps less so because of what is in them, but because Nasu has tried to make everything flow together into one big world.
And now, I won't compare Nasu's works to Tolkien's, or even Nasu to Tolkien, other than how they both tried to no only write stories, but making huge worlds.
And there are plenty of Tolkien fans due to the whole world thing alone.

>Bet you think it's the only VN worth analyzing too.
Of course not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220624
Are you being audited?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220624
>Nasu has tried to make everything flow together into one big world.
Actually it's not really true.
If you look at FSN and Tsukihime, they both don't have much in common in term of thematic, terms used, mechanisms, etc...
There are a few references here and there but really nothing much
You can say that both take place in the same world since they both have a lot of blank but saying that they flows very well is pretty stupid.

The only thing that really link them is some side material.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220639

The side materials have all been steadily interweaving the two, however, and it's quite obvious that it's now a uniform "universe", though it still needs quite a bit of hammering.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220645
Yeah but side material is side material.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220639
Yes, but I was mostly refering to the side material as well.
And to be honest he have actually done quite a lot of it.

Also, Tolkien did this whole side material as well, that's also why I brought him up.
What explains most about Tolkiens world is not LotR and the Hobbit, it's the books he wrote to describe those books.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6201998
What I hated most about this route was the overwhelming sense of incongruity compared to how the characters act in the other two routes. In both UBW and Fate Shirou clearly acts according to a personal code he is unwilling to bend or compromise on. He even knows that at times it's ridiculous, but nonetheless he never wavers and pursues the realisation of his ideals despite the loss to him. In HF he completely breaks with the essence of his character for a relatively trivial reason. Of course most people who dislike HF do so for stupid reasons like hurr durr Sakura is an impure slut blabla, which is just fucking stupid.

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

>>6220664
One problem with this argument is that Shirou's ideal wasn't to choose options to save the most people. It was to save EVERYONE. As pointed out by Archer, his cynicism started when he realized he couldn't save everyone because the enemies, the victimizers, the ones who would kill victims, could not be saved if he were to save the victims. Shirou isn't about pursuing the path that leads to the greats good or least sacrifices-the ideal allows for no compromise, and certainly the love of his life, Sakura, could not be sacrificed. One person being unsaved is as great a blow to his ideal as a hundred, as it highlights the point that there will always be victims that remain unsaved. Either choice would have compromised his ideal, and so he went with what his heart told him.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220717
Of course thinking you can save everyone is a delusion, but even when you figure out that's not possible, going with a "screw the rest of the world, I can't save them all anyway" mentality is the exact opposite. A true 'superhero' would still try to save as many people as possible, even when he realizes that there's no way to save everybody. My point is that the sudden change from wannabe superhero to egoist is just unbelievable considering his ideals. There's a reason ideals are called ideals, because they can never be fully realized, only approximated. In my opinion the Shirou character was completely ruined in the HF route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220734
>A true 'superhero' would still try to save as many people as possible
Sure, but this is still a question of "Does the end justify the means?"

[Anonymous No.]

It makes me sad that even when we get Unlimited Sematic Works threads that last for days, no one ever remembers Merlin, the biggest bro since Lancer. Pic tangentially related.

[Fujiwara no Mokou !!WMmFy7x/tgp No.]

>>6220734
Well, I personally have to disagree with that, if only due to my own childhood ideals, which had always been to be the knight in shining armor for my princess, the true love of my life, and sacrificing almost anything for her, and perhaps even dying for her. (Not at all my current beliefs). Different people have different definition of superheroes and what is the best course of action. If his ideal of saving everyone can't be fulfilled, you can't just automatically assume the only correct logical path would be to save as many as possible when this was never even mentioned as part of his desires, when the idealistic child me as well as many other romantics would have insisted that protecting your destined love (tm) would reign above all else.

He didn't go "screw the rest of the world, I can't save them anyways." He didn't abandon his desire to help others. He just realized who he had to save first before all else.

When Archer found out he couldn't save everyone or protect his loved one, he tried to commit retroactive suicide. In comparison, saving your waifu first isn't such a bad choice.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't think Shiro gives up his ideals as a whole, that would happen if he killed Sakura. His goal is to be able to save everyone, without any sacrifices; how sacrificing his loved ones would go accordingly to his principles? He has internal struggles, he just reaches the conclusion that even being faithful to himself, there's priorities he has to consider.

"It's only normal to protect your loved ones" ~ Illya

In Fate he was extraordinarily naive and doesn't grow out of it, in UBW he starts to adapt his views to reality and in HF he grows up and realizes he needs to set his priorities straight without giving up his philosophy.

I really believe that his romance with Sakura wasn't rushed at all; he was oblivious to love and refused to consider such a possibility as it would have kept him distant from his goal. But you can tell how close he was to Sakura the whole time, it was a normal romance developed over time (in other scenarios he might have felt the same but got overwhelmed when he experienced the same feelings over Saber/Rin with much less conflict)
It's not a matter of giving up your ideals, it's adapting them to concrete needs while keeping them unchanged.

Sakura had a wonderful characterization in HF; and the fact she came back to her senses thanks to her love for Shiro (not an obsession, could've been at first but her feelings are more than genuine) proves in a way that a major point of HF is that love doesn't obfuscate your ideals, it's what makes them real.
And while it's all a matter of personal preferences, even if she's considerably weaker than Saber/Rin, she's really strong considering all that she went through.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220807
>Sakura had a wonderful characterization in HF
No, just no.
Her characterization quite jumping around.
Only Shirou has a good characterization in FSN anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou didn't drop any ideals, because he had none at the very beginning of the story. He, as we learned in UBW, just "borrowed" the ideal from Kiritsugu, without fully knowing what it entailed. No, I think that's wrong... he did know what it entailed, but he just turned a blind eye to it, because what he was searching for, rather than the ideal of "justice" itself, was his own redemption.

In Fate and UBW, he was able to get over the redemption issue, and embraced/accepted the ideal for what it is, even if down the road it'd be filled with contradictions.

In HF, he decided not to follow his father footsteps any more, because he decided to save Sakura. Just as in the other routes, he put this new objective above his desire for redemption. Of course, unlike the way he was at the beginning, he allowed some innocent people to die, even if he suspected Sakura may have been involved in those murders. Of course, at the end of the day, he stopped the threat and saved everyone as a result, but I think it makes you wonder if he'd have allowed more innocent deaths had those being necessary.

Either way, I think many people overlook Shirou at the beginning, thinking he's some kind of idealist, when all he is is just a broken man trying to fill a void within him, and that void was created out of his need for redemption.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220876
Even if he borrowed his ideals, it was still his, that's the whole fucking point of UBW.
Goddam I thought it was spoonfeeded a lot but there are still some retards who didn't get it, the world really is full of idiots.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220880
I need this is /jp/, but there is not need to behave like a spoiled brat dude.

Anyway, I'm not saying he didn't make the ideal his. After pursuing it for so long, that's what Archer did without realising it. However, back at the time he began, the original drive were all the wrong reasons.

F/sn, throughout the whole story, and even more so in HF, made it rather clear Shirou was a man looking for redemption. That's why he clung to the ideal of becoming a hero of justice. Of course, by this I'm not saying the ideal was wrong, or that the actions were not his. However, he had not accepted the ideal fully, because his main drive was still his own need for redemption. His own past regrets.

Getting over his need for redemption/past regrets is what I believe separates Shirou from Archer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220567
>HF is bad because it's fucking boring 70% of the time
This.
All these wall of texts won't change the fact that it was fucking boring.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6220533
>I already said no, of course not. He wouldm't have sex with Sakura in the other routes because he would never start to love her because he grew to love the others and realized it before he fell for Sakura.
It's funny because that's still not answering the question. You're still going in a roundabout way to 'answer' it. Is it that hard to say yes or no, instead of diverging into something that precedes the actual question? :|

>Besides, the others' plants were planted in their respective routes, and because of it he would no longer think of other plants because one already got his attention.
Still not answering my question, still avoiding the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6221906

>>6220535
>I interpreted the fact how he is completely oblivious towards love and any social related to it for the vast majority of the first parts of the stories.
I see what you mean, your wording had me confused about what you were saying.

>>6220539
>This allows sacrifices, how?
Never said nor implied that, are you okay?

>If you say that he only applied his ideal to Sakura in HF, then Archer and Mind of Steel Shirou only applied their ideal to everyone but any sacrifices.
I'm not sure how you're missing the big difference here. What I'm saying is that Sakura is made to be Shirou's most important person, someone who he will strive to be a 'superhero' for. This means that other people around him are given a second priority, because he only saves what is most important to him now. In his true ideal, Shirou would save everyone equally, or die trying, as evident in Fate when he was being an idiot for half of the route.
You're confusing his ideals, assuming he has to sacrifice people no matter what, so it's the same ideal, just different based on numbers. It isn't, and this is a strawman. Like I suggested earlier, read through Fate and the ending in the Church, then go read through HF. I'm not talking about whether his ideal is unachievable or not, I'm talking about the very facet of it. We've been discussing this since the 2nd post, and you are still missing the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6221963


>They both did that.
And you show that you have no idea what we're talking about anymore. Except Archer still didn't drop his ideals until the end. Shirou dropped his ideals the moment he had to make that sacrifice, there's a difference, don't delude yourself into thinking that only action is at play here. Actually, keep deluding yourself, I can't be bothered to debate this strawman anymore.
On the topic of strawman, that's all you've been doing.
I originally claimed that Shirou's choice was OoC. You cited that his ideals are the same. I then pointed out that they weren't, but you chose to ignore this anyways and then claim that Sakura was important enough to warrant this decision. I pointed out that she wasn't, and that nothing changes between them except Shirou noticing her first in all 3 routes, then you completely avoided answer my question, or missing the point entirely. Now, you're once again arguing that the ideals are the same because of the end results and quantity, which I've said that doesn't matter because it's not the action, it's the choice of coming to that decision and the thought involved [and it's still not the same ideal]. We keep going around in circles, you keep avoiding answering certain questions posed by me directly, and this will never end.

>>6220547
Just me and one other guy. One other guy who is spouting sophism.

>>6220876
>Shirou didn't drop any ideals, because he had none at the very beginning of the story.
I think you need to replay FS/N, particularly end of Fate and UBW, because you obviously don't understand Shirou's character.>>6220778

[Alpha as fuck No.]

>>6202004

Pretty much this.

Aside from that, it's only good for the last few days.

That on top of the fact that it follows UBW it will get instantly compared to that.

It does have lots of Rider though, which is enough for me to enjoy it. I just skip the annoying shit where Sakura is being a weak-minded, spoiled fuck tard.

Archer and Saber are eliminated too soon as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6221906
>It's funny because that's still not answering the question.
The answer was no, because I don't see your point as even possible.
>Do you think that if Sakura were to have sex with Shirou
Not going to happen without romance.
>after he had loved Rin or Saber
And romance with Sakura would never start if romance had already started with either RIn or Saber.
So no. If they were to have sex anyway, her raping him or something, then I certainly don't think so at least. Don't think he would take too kindly of that.

>>This allows sacrifices, how?
>Never said nor implied that, are you okay?
Then you are implying that it's ok to go repeatidly go against the ideal, as long as you strive to achieve it?
Sure I can udnerstand that line of thought, though it's still hypocrisy to repeatidly choose to go against it like that.
What he did was to compromise the ideal in hopes of realizing the true ideal. But what he kept doing and did in his lifetime was to act on this compromised ideal, it was never realized, and his actions were instead compromises.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222852
>>They both did that.
>And you show that you have no idea what we're talking about anymore.
>I originally claimed that Shirou's choice was OoC.
The reason why I have brought up Archer all the time is because Archer is an in character Shirou. You can't deny that Shirou can grow to be Archer. But yes, they are also different, so Shirou can still grow to not be him, but Archer is still in character, and Archer is still Shirou, or rather, a form of him.
But most of all, they have the same ideal.
>In his true ideal, Shirou would save everyone equally, or die trying
If this is the case, then not only HF-Shirou is out of character, but Archer as well.
But if you intepret the ideal slightly differently, then neither Archer or Shirou (in any route) are.
>save everyone
This is of course what both Archer and Shirou sought after, this was their wish, and their ideal, and if everyone are saved, then it's also equal.
But you also say
>or die trying
I don;t think you can be sure on this actually.
Shirou did many things in the routes, but I don't ever think he liked the idea of endagering others by doing something stupid and dying.
I do however think that he would be a lot more open to dangerous things, were it not for other people to depend on him.
Also, I don't think he would do something he deems as utterly impossible if it would kill him, but I guess it's kind of refuted by the point that he believes that magic, or something, would always give him a chance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222889
But I guess I could end it all with this.
I claim that Archer is a possible in character Shirou.
They share the same ideal.
When Archer was faced with situations outside of his power, like in HF, then he choosed to prioritize others over a sacrifice.
And as mentioned, HF is one of those situations were Archer sacrificed people.
But this is also why and why I have been going on and on about Archer.

This whole discussion originally started because you claimed Shirou made a 180 as a character and was completely out of character.
So I brought up Archer (a Shirou), and pointed out how much he hates to take sacrifices, and how he in fact cannot stand them.
Now, Archer felt forced to make these sacrifices even so, but it was never something he wanted to do.
But just like Archer, Shirou most certainly can't stand sacrifices as well, they are both awful at making sacrifices.
In HF however, Shirou comes to terms with the fact that he can't save everyone, most of all because people have already started dying and were continuing to die. So it was too late for that. He did however still want to save everyone, Emiya Shirou never wanted people to die.
And I have already explained how much both of them hated sacrifices, and how it goes against their ideal.

Archer and Iliya influenced Shirou a lot in HF. But in the choice that continues towards the ends of HF, it was Iliya who convinced Shirou that it was ok to focus on on those he loved if he lacked the power to save everyone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222953
And now, Archer never wanted to make sacrifices, but he felt forced to because he was afraid of what might have happened were not the threat taken cared off fast. People were saved, but not everyone.
Shirou however, also felt forced to do something.
If you tell me that he should have gone with a third choice and claiming that it would be more in character, then I disagree with you.
Shirou felt forced to do something, with the more time that passes more people could get hurt, be it Sakura or others, so something had to be done.
Killing Sakura to save others was an option. To side with Sakura, protecting her was also an option.
But in neither case, all would be saved.
The option of saving everyone however was nothing other than a huge question mark left unanswered, and chosing the "mystery route" could have jepordized both Sakura and the others.

Needless to say, he felt forced to do something, just like Archer. But he also knew that neither option he knew of could save everyone, and he also knew that any other unknown option could kill everyone.
The struggle of this is what almost made him go insane and break down, and this was his greatest dilemma.
The reason as to why the dilemma was so strong was because they weighed as equal as they did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222966
One person having to die in order for others to live?! Insane I tell you! But this was the case in HF, the only difference between the choices are quantity and who.

So no, I can't see how it is out of character.
In one choice, everything leading up to that point, combined with how he can't stand people dying, was the cause of it.
In the other choice, everything leading up to that point, combined with how he can't stand having to sacrifice someone, was the cause of it.
And Iliya was the last trigger for him to side with those he loves.

So no, I don't see it as out of character, and certainly not a 180, or anything close to it.
And I bet, that even if he chose Sakura, he still has his dream where he wants everyone to be happy, he just wants to make sure she is first.
But I don't see it being out of character.

Also, since the beginning, my "strawman" arguments have been trying to connect a bigger picture. But no matter how much I ellaborated on Shirou and things related to him, you still claimed that it was greatily out of character. I simply does not see it being so myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>300 replies
>4 days old
Magical Homo really knows how to choose his OPs for maximum effect

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222976
Bah, there is nothing easier than starting a TM shitstorm, nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

What do you think Sakura smells like /jp/

I think she smells like fresh baked cookies and sunshine

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>6223012
It's not a shitstorm if nobody cares and there's actual discussion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222976
There's something about TYPE MOON threads that makes you want to argue for days
>>6223229
Flowers and the delicious food she's cooking

[Anonymous No.]

Killing off the best characters too early

[Anonymous No.]

>>6223242
This "discussion" was mostly 2 fags going in circle for 3 days.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6223255
Her house ended up being all flowers while she got old and fat waiting for Shirou while everyone told her to go out and get fucked by other dudes ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

>>6222852
>The answer was no, because I don't see your point as even possible.
>Don't see your point as possible
A lot of things aren't possible because of alternate routes. By your close minded definition, nothing talked about in this thread makes sense since we can't refer to UBW or Fate for reference. Get out.

>Not going to happen without romance.
Already addressed this point earlier about how their relationship hasn't changed aside from sex.

>Then you are implying that it's ok to go repeatidly go against the ideal, as long as you strive to achieve it?
I don't think you remember my older posts. If you read them, you'd also realize that this is not what I'm implying.

>>6222889
Not really. Archer's existence in the routes means that Shirou can never become him due to Nasu's, "LOL Alternate Universes".

>Also, I don't think he would do something he deems as utterly impossible if it would kill him, but I guess it's kind of refuted by the point that he believes that magic, or something, would always give him a chance.
He has, on numerous occassions. Everytime, he was saved, but how would he know that? Dead ends are there for a reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6223331
>>6222953
>>6222966
>>6222972
>But I guess I could end it all with this.
I suppose you could, since you actually did strawman everything. None of it connected to a larger picture, because they were all 'what ifs' and off handed remarks about Shirou's ideal that you draw comparisons from wrongly. I have pointed out why, and you keep saying that it all boils down to:
a] Shirou HAS to face a tough choice,
b] It wasn't OoC because it's just a matter of quantity.
You're still straying from the fact that he dropped his ideal due to unbelievable reasons.

I'm done too I guess, since all that you have been doing is blatantly ignoring my points about what a 'realist' is. It's kind of disheartening that the debate went around in circles because you failed to grasp one main point of my argument, but whatever. Let this thread die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6223334
First off, how can you be so sure that Shirou being a realist is out of character? Archer is one.
>b] It wasn't OoC because it's just a matter of quantity.
>You're still straying from the fact that he dropped his ideal due to unbelievable reasons.
No, I have really been trying to explain how Shirou never changed.
You know, if UBW continues, and Rin got in trouble and
>a] Shirou HAS to face a tough choice,
Then I bet it's plausible that he might do the same.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6223331
>By your close minded definition, nothing talked about in this thread makes sense since we can't refer to UBW or Fate for reference. Get out.
I also explained why I thought it was impossible, but then you just said that I was going in a roundabout way to 'answer' it.

You asked wether or not Shirou would have done something after having had sex with Sakura while being in love with someone else.
My answer was straight forward, and it said that I can't see Shirou having sex with anyone other than the person he loves.
If you really really want me to adress wether or not Shirou would dump Rin or Saber if he was in love with them if he had sex with Sakura, then I will say no, I believe he would feel raped.

[Anonymous No.]

So when the Heavens Feel adaptation comes out, will /p/ repeat itself once again?