/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

GLARBAGLARBA I'M A HUGE FUCKING MARY SUE AND MY SUPER KARATE BREAKS THE LAWS OF PHYSICS PLEASE INSERT COCKS HERE

Fuck this fucker. I actually liked him at first. I liked his sharp dress and intense stare before he made his fucking appearance and it turned out that he's just god-moding via writer fiat. A human killing Servants barehanded? No special powers other than extra durable hands? FUCK YOU. Am I supposed to believe that without any fucking magic this faggot can one hand toss Saber, fastball style, through a brick wall? FUCK YOU. FUCK THIS FUCKING ROUTE, FUCK NASU, FUCK ANYBODY WHO TOLD ME THIS FAGGOT WAS COOL, I'M OUTTA THIS BULLSHIT.

GOD.

[Anonymous No.]

Everyone in Fate is a Mary Sue.

Except Abe. Haha, that poor bastard.

[A Certain Magical !HOMOfybeOY No.]

How could you hate Kuzuki-sensei ?he had the personality a stone statue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199230
>A human killing Servants barehanded? No special powers other than extra durable hands? FUCK YOU. Am I supposed to believe that without any fucking magic this faggot can one hand toss Saber, fastball style, through a brick wall?
you missed the part where Caster uses all kinds of boosting magic on him, which is why he can do what he does. Did you even read the text?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199240
>all kinds of boosting magic on him

"Reinforce my fists" is hardly "all kinds of boosting magic".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199252
Well you said it yourself, it'd be impossible for a regular guy to defeat a servant if it were just that simple. Clearly she was augmenting his ability a lot.

[Anonymous No.]

He had the element of surprise. Saber underestimated his (augmented) ability. It's even stated he'd never get the chance to do this to Saber again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199280
Servants are supposed to move at high fucking speeds with thought perception that match those speeds. This was just a guy punching the shit out of her with rock hard hands.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199285
Yet you are completely okay with Rin catching Berserker by surprise and killing him, using magic as well I might add.

It's fucking magic, who are you to judge the limits?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199285
Bullets move at fast speeds. They start from 0, certainly Servants are like that. Basically, that is also how Shiki managed to kill Arcueid, though probably his speed during his murderous spells are probably superhuman already, but I digress.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199290
Shiki is supposedly at human physical peak, but that's obvious bullshit on Nasu's part given he walks on fucking walls.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199301
It's pretty much retarded, Nasu calling taking 3 steps and doing that 8 meter wall-to-ceiling dash the physical peak of humans. No human could ever do that. Sometimes I facepalm.

[Anonymous No.]

OP, you are simplifying the "Reinforcement".
Reinforcement here is not simply to make somehting more durable, it's to strenthen something.
It's what Rin did to run 100 meters in a couple of seconds etc. It's what Archer does to have a physique over humans.

And Kuzuki is completely powerless without Caster.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199301
>walks on fucking walls
>implying that's not human baseline and you couldn't do that if you tried

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199306
>3 steps
>8 meter wall-to-ceiling dash
>with 3 fucking steps
>human baseline
LOL

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199252
>"Reinforce my fists" is hardly "all kinds of boosting magic".
"reinforcing" in Nasuverse doesn't just mean he gets harder fists. It also means they get faster, more agile, all around better. And magic means he can hit servants.
Saber couldn't possibly expect a normal man to start punching her, and his whole martial style is based upon surprise and killing an opponent with the first attack.
It's great, but a one-trick pony. The moment he couldn't kill Saber with that hit, he lost. He can't even fight when he doesn't surprise the opponent, see how he gets turned into a pincushion by Gilgamesh.
And you're complaining about it just because he did something out of the normal rules?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199305
Different types of reinforcements. Like you can just cast some on your eyes, like Archer's. Kuzuki just asked his for his fists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199313
No. Reinforcement magic is not an all around thing. It can be very specific with what it targets. In this case, just the fists.

[Anonymous No.]

how about you sillies check the actual japanese line

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199320
And what is it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199252
Recall that Caster lived in an era True Magic was commonplace. Rin can produce a sizeable blast by blowing up a rock she spent years pumping mana on. Caster can conjure enough death lasers to make a Darius boss proud within seconds.

Now imagine how her reinforcement spells would be. I wouldn't be surprised if Kuzuki could punch buildings in two in that state.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199318
>No. Reinforcement magic is not an all around thing
Medea is one the best magicians in that universe, I'd think her reinforcing something would be done in a better way than what a japanese boy can do with a newspaper or whatever the fuck it was, if that's what your'e talking about.
Remember what was written about reinforcement in the fuyuki wiki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199315
So? It's magic, and Caster is among the best there is on the subject.

I believe Bazette does the same.
She has gloves reinforced with rune magic, and can thus throw punches at the speed of sound.
And that's "reinforced fists".

It's always been like that in stories.
If you read all myths they were rarely all down to detail with every little thing.
Reinforced fists means that he can use his fists better.
If moving his fists faster requires him to move his arm faster I wouldn't call it bullshit if it happened.

If so Greek/Norse/Egyptian myths are all bull as well.
Don't go all autistic on the subject anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199325
Reinforcement magic is just hard to cast on someone else perfectly. Surely her ease of casting on Souichirou is the sign of it. Besides, dude just asked for fists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199311
>implying even your fat ass can't manage that much with a bit of practice

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199329
>Besides, dude just asked for fists.
Again with the petty remarks.
No offense, but this is really the sign of one of those social disorders, it's actually kind of... autistic you know.

Surely you understand that it is not to be taken as litterally as "just strengthened locally within his fists", right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199321
not that anon nor have japanese fate installed but
http://hiki.cre.jp/typemoon/?KuzukiSouichirou
>キャスターに魔術で拳を「強化」
so yeah, it's more like strengthening/reinforce or whatever by magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199329
>Besides, dude just asked for fists.
And, as we are all saying to you, that means they also get faster. See Bazette, see Rin, see every mention of reinforcement magic besides Shirou, who's not even proficient in it.
You're being an over-literal prude over one scene of one character... why, exactly?
I get that ripping on FSN is what the cool kids do, but come on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199327
In a short distance, a human can break the sound barrier with a punch, depending on the natural talent of a person.

It shouldn't be enough to fuck with a Servant even if it did reinforce the human. No human could possibly outrun a Servant even with reinforcement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199343
>shiki can kill servants. discuss
when did we move from Souchirou surprises Saber to a human can't outrun a servant?
oh wait it's a troll thread, nvm carry on

[Anonymous No.]

Unbelievable and poorly-explained Mary Sues? In my Hype-Moon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199343
Correction
No human could do it with human reinforcement/magic.
Caster casting spells is an entirely different thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199337
Actually it does, can't you fucking read.
When he says "reinforce my fists", you understand that Caster reinforced his fists and nothing else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199348
Because you guys are telling me that reinforcement magic is enough to outmatch a Servant's freaking perception which is supposed to be beyond Mach speed.

>>6199350
So why can't Souichiro match Saber if Caster can actually make him as fast as Saber due to your Caster-level reinforcement?

Oh wait, she couldn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199353
Force is a function of mass and acceleration. Unless Caster made Kuzuki's fists weigh a tonne, then she made him be able to punch a hell of a lot faster (and along with that, she'd have to reinforce his bones, nerves and a bunch of other things to enable his body to keep up - requisite secondary powers and all that).

[Anonymous No.]

Servants aren't all that strong, look at how fucking weak Avenger is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199348
All TM threads are 'troll threads' because the material trolls itself.
Nasu creates his own universe where all this crazy shit can happen and that's fine, but then he goes and breaks the laws of his OWN FUCKING UNIVERSE and contradicts himself so many times that he ends up explaining most of it away with 'a wizard did it'.
He allows our suspension of disbelief to stretch far further than it could in the 'real' world, then pushes things way too far over the line he sets himself anyway.

That's my biggest complaint with the guy; I don't mind his laboured, extraneous walls of text, I hate his fucking inability to explain things in his own self-created world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199363
It's magic, fucking autistic faggot, stop bringing physic in this shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199353
>When he says "reinforce my fists", you understand that Caster reinforced his fists and nothing else.
Yes, but what you seem to have trouble with is that sometimes everything is not supposed to be taken word for word.
Yes, it's simply his fists that are reinforced, but that doesn't neccesarily says nothing on possible effects.

Do I really have to hunt down old myths/folktales/stories where people have gotten "enchanted" feet, enabling them to run or jump faster or whatnot?
Strengthened feet can't do shit about jumping or running.

This can't seriously be the first time you have encountered something like this in literature, can it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199365
>pick out the weakest Servant in existence
>claim that all Servants are that weak
Cool logic, bro.

>>6199358
>Because you guys are telling me that reinforcement magic is enough to outmatch a Servant's freaking perception which is supposed to be beyond Mach speed.
No, they're saying that increasing Kuzuki's strength and speed, combined with Saber underestiamting him and a wildly unpredictable fighting style, Kuzuki is able to get the jump on Saber and hurt her. Situational advantages trump power levels in everything outside Bleach and Naruto.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199372
>complain about Fate not being realisitic
>complain when somebody uses physics to prove you're wrong

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199375
So you telling me all those guys with those magical sandals can now do superhuman things because if you reinforce the rest of the body to match the reinforced feet, that human will not only be able to run faster or jump higher, he could very well also break entire walls with his fists or head. And he can even parry bronze spears with his fucking arms.

Which is ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199365
Avenger is weak yeah.
But among all servants and all ghost liners, Avenger is the most dangerous to humans and the most efficient in killing them.
It's just that he is not that great otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199375
Right now what you are doing is simply taking Nasu's cock deep within your throat because there is no fucking way a plot hole/contradiction could happen in his works.

There is absolutely no fucking mention of the reinforcement having an effect on his speed and he specifically ask for his fists and nothing else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199379
>Thread generalizing Servants powers.

While I
>States Servant's can get more weaker then you thought.

while you
>claim that I claim all Servants are that weak.

Cool logic bro

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199379
Fucking MACH speed perception and movement. Saber even has an extra attribute that makes her perceive faster.

And just this reinforcement that should not even be able to trouble Saber because

>So why can't Souichiro match Saber if Caster can actually make him as fast as Saber due to your Caster-level reinforcement?
>Oh wait, she couldn't.

makes this reinforcement pretty shit compared to a Servant.

[Anonymous No.]

ITT this is why Shiki can kill Servants

Because Servants can be surprised.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199385
You are clearly autistic.

Of course not that would only be stupid.
You can't just take everything literally and word for word, you also have to take things such as underlying desired effects and stuff like it.

Let's take another example, completely different from magic, but otherwise down to point.
Dragons. If we take the typical example of dragons, we can clearly say "that thing cannot possibly fly", yet they do it all the time.
Because when the author gave them wings, they intended them to make the Dragon able to fly.

It's the same thing really.
If an author enchants someones feet, and intends him to be able to run ten times faster, then so be it, that was how the enchantment worked in this case.

The fact that one is magical and one is not doesn't matter, both are "illogical".
That's why you have to take other things into consideration, such as the author's thoughts and things like it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199399
Actually, you went full retard. You were the one adding "possible effects" to the discussion.

I just showed you the problem with making that kind of argument.

Because if you do that kind of argument, all types of reinforcements become full body reinforcements since the body is not supposed to be able to move faster than its other parts.

Which is why when a part of you is stronger than the rest, you fucking rip muscles on other parts of your body trying to keep up.

Which is why Archer Arm Shirou is also a retarded point of view.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199390
And your justification for saying that Kuzuki's reinforcement is shit is? Christ, the scene is basically this:
- Saber underestimates Kuzuki
- Caster, with her immense magical skill and power, reinforces Kuzuki's fists (and reinforcement is more than just, lol punch stronger magically, as fuyukiwiki points out)
- Kuzuki with Snake gets the jump on the unprepared Saber, her skill for perception saves her arse.

So, I'd say the reinforcement worked quite well. You're utterly fucking autistic however, and refuse to accept all the evidence and instead claim things that aren't true. Enjoy your autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199406
No, you freaking moron. If Caster's level of Reinforcement was enough to trouble Saber that only her perception is able to save her ass, then even when Saber readies herself, Kuzuki should still be on the same level as her. And Caster should've just made Kuzuki completely reinforced, making him kill Saber that day.

The problem here is that Servants are supposed to have supersonic reaction times therefore, even if Saber isn't ready, she should've completely not even gotten troubled by this reinforced human who she could beat the ass out of.

You're giving the Shikifags ammunition since now they can just assume that the Shikis could kill every Servant just by virtue of surprise because this situation shows that Servants do not always have their freaking supersonic reaction time on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199402
Thing is, it's because I understand that it's not logical, yet able to grasp it that makes me, not autistic.
I know autism is a ehavily over used word here on /jp/ as of late, but in this is really something more in line of what it actually is.

Anyway.
>Because if you do that kind of argument, all types of reinforcements become full body reinforcements
Actually no, but it means that the effects may or may not stretch further than simply locally where the enchantment is.
It really doesn't have to be full body enchantments because of it, only because it might "make more sense".

Whith the idea of having someones feet enchanted to make them run faster, can in the fictional work, make them able to run faster within the fictional work if that was the desired effects of the author.
It doesn't matter that simply, better feet can't make you run faster like that, but if the author didn't wan't the rest of his body to achieve outwordly properties, then they simply don't, because he didn't want to.


But disregard that example for a moment, all this talk about magic seems to make us go all nitpicky on petty details.
Let me go back to that dragon example.

This one is actually real simple, so follow me here.
Just because a dragon can fly with his wings, doesn't mean the wing beats creates powerful enough shockwaves to lower buildings, because the author might find that stupid, even if it may be required to keep such a large beast airborn.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199414
>You're giving the Shikifags ammunition since now they can just assume that the Shikis could kill every Servant just by virtue of surprise because this situation shows that Servants do not always have their freaking supersonic reaction time on.
thanks for the ammo, bruddah

[Anonymous No.]

ITT autism, autism everywhere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199390
>Saber even has an extra attribute that makes her perceive faster.
It was more so Souchirou's weird martial arts moves, that made it hard for Saver to follow him, rather than sheer speed alone.

It's also why Saber claimed that Souchirou was no longer a problem because she could now recognize his moves.
Hence, a one-trick pony

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199336
Let's put this to test. The shortest frame rate the human eye can see is one per 10ms. So if you move at least one body length per 10ms, you'll be effectively invisible, which is what Shiki sort of did to avoid Akiha's pyrogaze (which, uh, drains heat so the victims look like they're burning? Another gem from Nasu right there. )

Let us assume I am a juvenile elephant seal wearing human skin, weighing ~550 kilograms with a maximum body girth of 150cm (those are supposedly around the measurements of Carol Yager. ) To be unseen, I must move at least 150cm per 10ms. This is, of course, 150m/s.

Here's where the weight factors in. Assume that I vanish from my beloved sister Akiha's eyes and use this opportunity to collide with her at that speed. My momentum will be 82500 Newton seconds, and assuming about half of this transfers to Akiha (weighing 45kg), she will end up flying into the nearest wall at roughly 917 meters per second, or around Mach 2,7.

The human physical peak is something to be feared indeed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199414
This has nothing to do with Shiki. Hell, the Kuzuki argument doesn't have a damned thing to do with reaction times. Kuzuki's Snake is a skill that only works once on somebody such as Saber, hence why reinforcement didn't allow him to keep up with her after the first conflict - it works by being completely different than expected (e.g. his punch will come from here, but it actually comes from there). If you actually read the fucking story or any of the supplementary materials before ranting like a fucking moron, you'd know this. This argument has happened before, with people just as retarded and strawman-happy as yourself. Enjoy your autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199418
See. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. By using your fucking logic, if we reinforce the fist, the arms would have to accomodate that. Then the chest and back muscles would be needed to follow. Then the abs, the spine, the legs, the neck, EVERYTHING would have to be reinforced to handle the speed "fist" reinforcement has.

And that's the point with your dragon. The dragon doesn't level buildings with it's wing shockwaves, because it's not said in the story.

The situation we have doesn't fucking say anything beyond fist reinforcement so everything else shouldn't be geared to help that fist be that fast at all.

But you're destroying your own "dragon" argument by arguing that "possible" side effects occur because of it.

[Anonymous No.]

Oh I love it when /jp/ discuss real world logic inside Nasuverse. The outcome never changes!

[Anonymous No.]

Real autism on /jp/
I almost thought there actually weren't real autists here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199431
>>6199428
>hory crap, MARTIAL ARTS MOVE Saber doesn't know

You fuckers telling me that a fucking feint is enough to throw off someone with SUPERSONIC reaction timing and reflexes that it requires her perception attribute to escape it?

Seriously? GTFO.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199429
>which, uh, drains heat so the victims look like they're burning? Another gem from Nasu right there
Actually correct physics, the heats released from their body instantly but it still needs somewhere to go. Hence, the heat being released generates flames.

>weighing ~550 kilograms
Yeah, because Shiki weighs that much. Oh, wait.

Seriously, so much fucking autism. This reminds me of why I stopped frequenting Beast's Lair.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199441
To add, feints ONLY work if you're as fast or just a bit slower than your opponent. If at normal levels of your speed and you can't even keep up with that other person, your feints can never work unless the other guys is sleeping.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199435
>See. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. By using your fucking logic
>if we reinforce the fist, the arms would have to accomodate that.
>would have to
Why?
No really why? This is fiction, not reality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199441
THis is just going around in circles. Everytime we logically point out why you're a fucking autistic bastard, you go 'lol no' and act more autistic. Enjoy your autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199450
>>6199447
>thinks i'm autistic
>when they're being autistic and can't see the holes in their arguments

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199450
Typical TM argument thread.

[Anonymous No.]

On a side note do they have autism in Europe?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199435
>The dragon doesn't level buildings with it's wing shockwaves, because it's not said in the story.
Let's apply your own logic here.

>if we reinforce the fist
>the arms would have to accomodate that.
ok.

Let's do the same thing with the dragon.
If the dragon is flying
Schockwaves have to exist as a natural cause

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199443
>I need jokes to be pointed out to me

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199451
>no u
We've given you every single argument there is - you've simply responded with things that are stupid/untrue (SUPERSONIC REACTION TIMES!!!11!one!) or strawmen (Shiki, prerequisite secondary powers don't exist). Enjoy your autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199336
>>implying even your fat ass can't manage that much with a bit of practice
Are you telling me that you can MOVE 8 meters with 3 steps, one on the floor, one on the wall, and one on the ceiling, all the while aiming to stab someone 8 meters away?

Do you even know how far 8 meters is?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199458
Oh shit, I missed the post you were quoting. Whoops...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199457
No you moron. The reinforcement everywhere was my counter to your "Caster's reinforcement has possible side effects" bullshit.

Your dragon argument agreed with me that if it's just the fist, it's just the fist. And then physics is no longer a part of the discussion at that point because it has been broken already.

But NOOO, let's add some physics and numbers and be all cool.

[Anonymous No.]

autism has become a worse canned reply than umad?
>lol he's autist
>lol no you're autist

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199461
Olympic sprinters can run over 10m/s and they're not even at the mythical human peak that Nasu is using in even that one field.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199460
No u. See how easy I did it too?

[Anonymous No.]

shut the fuck up, he was the only decent character in the vn.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199467
No, it's mostly a canned reply in TM threads because all arguments that last long enough are by autists (namely because they refuse to accept reason, hence autism).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199468
>run
>denoting more than 3 steps
>runners don't start at 10 m/s
>Shiki reaches 8 meters in 3 steps in 3 different directions, one in which he is COMPLETELY UPSIDE DOWN
Try again, faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199468
The most man has done in modern times is more in line of 8m/s actually.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199475
You forgot the part where Shiki can outspeed a knife he throws and break someone's neck in the vertical before said knife hits the target.

Autism everywhere

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199475
What part of "mythical human peak" don't you understand? The stupidly unrealistic thing about Shiki isn't his speed, but his musculature which I'm not going to defend (the 3 steps in 3 different directions part) - 17 pieces is an example of that, the speed is easy but being able to twist your arm back and forth that many times in a second is ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199476
Wait, so 2009 isn't modern times? The world record for the 100m sprint is 9.58s in 2009. Do the math.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199484
Then why did you use the Olympic sprinter trash on me? I challenged the guy when he said you could do what Shiki did if you practiced enough. I laugh at his autism.

[Anonymous No.]

ITT we take the fighting too fucking seriously
are you those faggots who say "lol Gandalf could have used the eagles since the beginning"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199466
>But NOOO, let's add some physics and numbers and be all cool.
Have you been following me at all here?
My point is basically, it doesn't make sense, but it is the actual effects in the story.

That's why the dragon is a good example.
Because it doesn't make sense for dragons being able to fly.
And if they did, it doesn't make sense for the air around them not to be horribly disturbed.

See, logic is already broken in both cases.
When the something is reinforced in the Nasuverse, the effects may or may not stretch further than the actual effected area.

And Dragons can't fly, but they do so anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199488
I challenged the speed, mostly, not realising what you actually meant. I was being reminded of those "Shiki can break the speed of sound" claims, where they use that same scene as proof.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199490
>possible effects again
This is tiring, trying to keep up with you. You shoot yourself in the foot, but can't seem to feel the pain nor even see the wound.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199489
No, only one guy is doing that.
Everyone else understands it. Everyone ITT is being trolled by this one guy acting stupid on purpose.

[Anonymous No.]

damn sure smells like beastlair in here

[Probatio Diabolica !vXxEWGgI8M No.]

Ahh, these threads never change. I get all nostalgia every time. Carry on. Oh, and Shiki can kill Bodhidharma.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199497
I understand that it may be ridiculous, but it's the actual case.
If you find it unacceptable you should email Nasu or something.

I didn't make up the ideas.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199461
>implying that

You know, I was initially making a joke about how humans are able to do stuff like run up walls and punch servants in the face and so on, but it kind of got out of hand. So, uh, sorry for wasting your time.

>humans are perfectly capable of using spiral energy

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199497
Stock "retorts" by the autist:
>You shoot yourself in the foot
>SUPERSONIC reaction times
>just his fists
This thread is highly amusing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199495
Shiki can possibly break the speed of sound via the Kyokushi Nanaya or the 17 slices per second.

[Anonymous No.]

The nostalgia in this thread.
It's like /jp/ back in early 2008.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199514
Get out, "autist". You're the one who doesn't get anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199414
>f Caster's level of Reinforcement was enough to trouble Saber that only her perception is able to save her ass, then even when Saber readies herself, Kuzuki should still be on the same level as her.
Except his fighting style is based on surprise. When Saber readies herself, Kuzuki can't fight on par with her anymore not because of the magic, but because of his own style.
Sure, maybe he could still punch once or twice, but that's not his strong point.
He's an assassin. He trains in order to need only one blow. If he fails that one blow, he's not trained to fight properly anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199522
>Kyokushi Nanaya
I don't think he throws his knife at anywhere near the speed of sound.
>17 slices per second
He'd need to move his arm over 20m in each slice to do so.

The only thing both of those require is ridiculously inhuman musculature. Horribly unrealistic in a different way (i.e. a way that every fighting anime/manga/visual novel takes as granted).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199522
Don't know, maybe the 17 slices, but Kyokushi Nanaya depends on how strong Shiki can throw that knife.

Some people can throw it as fast as a fastball at above 90mph. If Shiki has enough muscular aptitude to do the insanely ridiculous things that he can pull off, we could possibly say he throws it at 2-3 times faster than a normal human.

That would amount to 270 mph. If he's too outrun that knife while leaping in the air and reach the target to break its neck before the knife reaches it, he should be able to fling himself even faster than 270 mph.

But mind you, speed of sound in mph is 760mph.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199474
Oh I see, so everyone that doesn't agree with me, are autists?
Troll material, no better than umad. Either that or the entire internet is autistic.

[Anonymous No.]

OP, you're not alone. I didn't like the part Kuzuki-sensei played in the story too and for all that reinforcing Caster did on him using her 'superior' magical knowledge and skill, it sure was HARD to heal his fatal injuries after Gilgamesh fucked him up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199530
It doesn't matter if it's style shmyle. The fact that he's even able to surprise someone with Saber's reaction timing should have made him able to fight Saber on equal terms just because of the reinforcement. It makes no sense that you're able to do that and then the other guy is able to easily beat your crap down after. Fighting does not work like that.

[Anonymous No.]

OP, you asked a question if wether or not you should believe this bullshit.
And you asked wether or not he had any other special powers besides "extra durable hands".

And it has been explained that the reinforcement magic is more than than what you thought it was.
And it's also been explained that he isn't as good of a fighter as you seemed to believe.

So what is wrong?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199555
The fact he's wrong is what's wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

Sure is a shitty assassin when your one-hit killing method gets countered and then it's like you don't know how to fight anymore and both your arms and legs turn to jelly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199554
The surprise is more the cause of a feint.
The feint is simply what it is, a move to fool someone.
In other words, he tricked Saber.

There's more for Saber to do than just follow movement, she has to do predictions as well.
His movement was blatantly stated as extraordinary unpredictable.

Caster's reinforcement doesn't put him on equal level with Servants.
But it pushes him close enough for feints and other tricks to have a chance, without the reinforcement he can't do anything to them at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199546
If the knife has already hit the halfway point by the time Shiki jumps, he'd need to move at least twice the speed of the knife, so it could be possible for Shiki to reach supersonic speeds if he throws a knife 4 times faster than a normal human can.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199558
Just how is the author wrong?

Just how is this magic of his any less acceptable than complete disregard of physics in other works?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199568
That's a lot of assumptions there. I'd generally go with the less outrageous assumptions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199563
Unpredictable doesn't matter when your speed and perception is way beyond your opponent's, which is what they show by Saber becoming suddenly unbeatable when she escaped Kuzuki.

Kuzuki should have NEVER been able to take Saber by surprise at all if he couldn't at least be able to match her in a normal fight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199573
Uh, I wasn't referring to the author, I was referring to the OP. I.E. The fact that the OP is wrong is what's wrong [with the OP]. He simply can't accept that fact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199576
>Kuzuki should have NEVER been able to take Saber by surprise at all if he couldn't at least be able to match her in a normal fight.
Oh god, I loled heartily.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199574
People have to prepare to jump. You don't just suddenly jump. There will be a lag time from after Shiki throws the knife to getting ready to actually throwing himself airborn from no velocity to full speed reaching the target before the knife strikes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199582
You loled because you have never fought before and fought with guys that are "unpredictable" and "fast" against amateurs, but when they reach you they are "normal" and their unpredictable shots become "easy to read".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199576
>Kuzuki should have NEVER been able to take Saber by surprise at all if he couldn't at least be able to match her in a normal fight.
This is where powerlevels completely falls.

[Not WoL !Vg8jFF1hgo No.]

This is good early morning rage, I can stay chill and eat my breakfast to this stuff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199585
He could prepare to jump whilst throwing the knife. He might have jumped before the knife is halfway. He might not be able to throw his knife at 380+mph (more than 4 times faster than the best fastball pitchers). If any of those assumptions is false then he doesn't break the speed of sound. Occam's razor applies here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199598
He could be trolling to throw the knife when in actual fact, he doesn't!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199593
And, uh, neither have you? I loled because you basically said that powerlevels trump all, like some silly DBZkiddie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199576
Saber was like a tiger ready to pounce
on Caster
because thats where she had her attention focused
she never even in one million years thought that scrawny schoolteacher master was going to bumrush her, when that would be certain death for him
you can have all the reflexes and perception in the fucking world
but if you're standing on one end of a dueling ground, getting ready to face off your opponent
and a fucking squirrel falls out of fucking tree and starts wailing on you with the force of a large bear
you wouldn't be fucking prepared for that shit now would you

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199598
How many guys have the physical ability to do what Shiki does (i.e. 17 slices in 1 second, 3 steps in 8 meters for a guy that's 169cm tall that includes stepping on a wall and the ceiling, being able to dodge attacks from CurryAss)?

It's not unthinkable for Shiki to be able to throw pretty fast.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199605
I speak from combat experience being a boxer myself with a lot of gym war experience.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199605
And what I said isn't powerlevel trumps all. I said that Kuzuki should've never been able to surprise Saber if he couldn't have been able to fight at least on a better standing against her normally.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199607
Throwing pretty fast is one thing, throwing at 380+mph is another. He still can't jump earlier than the knife reaching halfway with that speed anyway - if he was to jump when it was a quarter of the way, then the knife would need to be thrown at 570+mph. It's _possible_ but not requisite for him to break the sound barrier with Kyokushi Nanaya.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199613
This thread just got hilariously better.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199628
>implying speaking from experience is funny
We have policemen and fucking soldiers in 4chan, and you think being a boxer is funny?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199613
Then I wonder how much experience you really have.

We don't even need to talk about fighting.
Let's take soccer for instance.
I mean, hundereds of feints are present in every game, it's a part of it all.
Now, you can't possibly say that less skilled soccer players can't feint soccer players with far more experience, can you?
Or are you going to try pointing out how fights and sports are different?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199632
No, I meant it was hilarious that him (or more probably, you) being a boxer suddenly means he can speak from experience about Servant fights and martial arts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199634
Give you an example, you're looking down at a cat, and a cat is looking up at you. Just when you think how cute it is, it jump up and scratch your face in an instant. Regardless of how much you could've owned it later, you were surprised.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199634
Sports are different, but if the other person is way slower than you that he's not really a match for you in a regular matchup, he will not be able to actually even be close to successfully feinting you because you'll see the feint before he pulls his attack on you.

Now soccer, it probably works on the same principles. A feint can only work if the other guy is around your level of speed and agility. If he isn't, then he might as well have not feinted at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199639
Yeah, because boxing utilizes a lot of feints and you learn how to measure relative speed and reaction time with experience. Also, it's not like we don't fool around and do MMA in the gym.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199643
Except the lower speed works on your presumption that reinforcement doesn't make a difference, which it does. You only pretend it doesn't. There's also ego, not focusing on that fighter and expecting something completely different than what you get.

>A feint can only work if the other guy is around your level of speed and agility.
This makes it apparent you're a terribly inexperienced boxer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199641
A cat is pretty fast in the short distance. Yes, you could own it, but if you're fast enough, it shouldn't even be able to hit you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199646
>we fool around and do MMA in the gym
>suddenly we know how to counter every martial art in existence just because

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199648
>Except the lower speed works on your presumption that reinforcement doesn't make a difference
The reinforcement does not make a difference because Saber SHOWS the huge gulf after the lol feint.
>makes you a terrible boxer
No. People use timing when they are slow, not reaction time/reflexes. Stop using shit you don't know.

If you are fast, the guy can keep feinting you, if he's slow as molasses, those feints won't even matter, because you can see the actual blow coming.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199643
>A feint can only work if the other guy is around your level of speed and agility.
Yes, most likely yeah. "around" being kind of vague though.
But speed and agility is not everything there is when it comes to soccer. A guy with good speed and agility who have trained at feints can be really good at them, and he can feint great players due being good at feints.
Then he could be mediocre (or in more extreme cases actually suck) in other areas.
It's not as if it's something unheard of.

What Caster did was reinforce Kuzuki to make him "around" the same level of Saber in a few crucial areas.
He could feint her, once, with a move unfamiliar to Saber.
It worked, but he isn't that good on the overall "game".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199652
>implying you can't gain it from that especially if your instructors learned from different instructors

[Anonymous No.]

SO now the thread has descended into autism again, though it's less amusing now. Now it's just:

- reinforcement doesn't apply, just because (hint: it's because it completely invalidates the autist's argument)
- I'm a boxer so I'm right, you're wrong

Enjoy your autism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199660
>"around" being kind of vague though.
And I meant this because it can actually vary much.
It's true that if the difference was exceedingly large, then it could make it considerably harder, but that's about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199660
I would almost agree, but we are simply talking in terms of speed here. If Kuzuki is able to surprise Saber with a feint, he should have been able to keep up with Saber even after the fact just working on that speed alone. But he couldn't after the fact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199667
>retard proving he's the autist

[Anonymous No.]

You, boxer guy.
How often have you faught against people with armor and swords? But more importantly, the sword.
He would have been at a disadvantage even on equal skill level, if we assume such a thing even exists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199686
I'm pretty sure Kuzuki affected Saber even through her armor, so that's pretty much moot at that point.

And swords suck in close-range, just like a bat does not have it's full power when you get inside the guy's range before he even swings the bat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199704
First off, bats aren't swords.
Second off, you know nothing about swords.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199720
First off, bats are mid range weapons, like swords. And like any melee weapon, they depend on their user. And like any mid range weapon, swords have a fucking range system that makes them weak to anyone that can get inside their user's range.

You're the one who knows shit about weapon systems.

[Anonymous No.]

>/jp/ martial artist & weapon experts

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199735
You should know that Knights were trained in wrestling since childhood, often mixed with boxing.
And frankly, the armor alone is such an advantage in wrestling it becomes ridiculous.

And there were tons of techniques for close range combat with swords. Arguably not as useful (but considering how they are used at close range, and are effictive at close range, that's good enoug, no?)
Unarmed people really couldn't close in on someone weilding a sword like that, and even when inside close range they would still be at a disatvantage due to being unarmed, and not the other way around.

It's the same reason as to why an untrained peasant with a spear was favoured against a trained, unarmored soldier with a sword.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't know about you guys, but Nasu is definitely not some weapon expert and probably been in close to nil fights, nor has he Ph.D in physics and human science, why can't you all just be good anons, take it easy, and read it for the fucking plot.

[Anonymous No.]

Any VN with proper sword techniques described?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y&fmt=18

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199786
Hanachirasu and Fullmetal Daemon Muramasa.
Writer is a professional kendoka.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199765
>untrained peasant over unarmored swordsman
full retard

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199813
With a spear.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199777
How about no?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199821
A spear has so many disadvantages against a fucking sword. If held by an untrained peasant, all you have is a dead peasant by the end of the fight. The only advantage untrained spear peasantry have is when they have massive numbers. Cheaper to make spears, cheaper to train spearmen to stand in formation, cheaper to sacrifice against charging cavalry, which, surprise surprise, is easiest to counter with long pointy things that are longer than swords.

[Anonymous No.]

Mary Sues -> magic discussion -> human physical limits -> swordfighting techniques -> war strategies
goota love TM threads

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

Soichirou is useless in a fight against servants without Caster reinforcing him, as evidenced by his fight with Archer after she died.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't think people are grasping the 'surprise' in surprise attack.

It means you didn't see it fucking coming until you're hit. And thanks to his style that's already too goddamn late.

Also let's not forget Saber remarked on the way he controls his breathing and such, that's on a level not even she reached.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199857
The swords mainrole has been that of a side arm most of the time.
Old Greeks mainly used the spear, yet they were all trained swordsmen as well.
They prioritized the spears and used them until they faced with a situation where they weren't suitable anymore.

But that's army battles with formations.
In a one on one battle without armour, the range of the spear becomes even more notable.
For the swordman to come in close the spearman has to screw up, and it's not the other way around.
If the swordsman does deflect the first blow then it will most likely be over in this case.
But it's harder to deflect a thrust than it is to hit with one, and while the peasant might not be trained, he is still an average man.

[Anonymous No.]

People still don' get that Mary Sue is a term for female characters. Gary Stu is the male version of that word.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6199414
Oh no! Now Shiki will retroactively have killed all the servants causing a time paradox that makes F/SN to cease to exist!

>>6199893
Yes. Soichirou can only land a blow on Saber if she doesn't see him coming. If she does then she can easily evade his attacks, which is why his technique is useless once she knows how it works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199909
The reason Saber was able to avoid his attacks was because she has precognition. Most other Servants would have been killed easily.

[Anonymous No.]

>Power levels thread (literally)
>+ 157 posts and 6 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
New change, /jp/.
OP is right

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

And Shiki could kill servants if:
a) He had an enchanted dagger such as Azoth.
b) He was magically reinforced to match a Servant's abilities.
c) He used Azoth to destroy a Servant's heart or head rather than relying on his mystic eyes. Even Shirou could do that after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199446
Bullshit. I fence competitively and have extremely good reflexes, but experienced 60 year old fencers are still able to score points on me if I fall for a feint. It's not just me; they are able to keep up with everyone, including those who are even faster than I am.

Feints truly level the playing field.

[Anonymous No.]

Mystic Eyes of Death perception only works on beings that are part of their world.
Heroic Spirits are part of none, and they are already recognized as dead by the world anyway.
The only thing stopping them is the magic of the summoning contract, otherwise they are already dead anyway.

So first off, Shiki wouldn't be able to perceive their death because
1, they are already dead, and while he can kill non-living things, he can't kill, killed things, or perceive their death/end for matter.
2, They belong to no world, and most certainly not his, he cannot perceive the death of "aliens".
3, Him stabbing them would make no difference, because when they are summoned it's as if they are already stabbed for all the world cares, because they are already dead. Hence the massive energy cost in maintaining them as the world tries to live up to that fact.

But yes, otherwise he could potentially kill them, like any other bloke with an enchanted item.
A child could potentially kill a Heroic Spirit, with an enchanted spoon, given the Spirit doesn't resist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200006
This is the truth, or least the most widely accepted theory anyway.

38. As said in the game, Shiki can't see lines on things that can't be killed (destroyed) in the modern world. This is because the basis of the eyes of Shiki, a human being, work in proportion to the limits of modern humanity. Which means, Servants = unkillable by modern weapons (yes, Kinoko said that himself) = either no lines seen in normal cases (unless he pushes himself or reaches the point of being accustomed to the death of anything - still have the form of living beings so shouldn't take that much time if any) or number and thickness are less and not so easy to affect. Servants = materialized spiritual bodies = concepts about a thousand years or older = not so easy to kill; slashing one line doesn't ensure immediate effect. An easily breakable image that's been developed from human ideals images for some 2000 or more years probably would cause some penalties. Dots, as always, are insta-death - I'm not saying that Shiki can't kill them, I'm saying that just slashing a non-head line may not mean much during actual combat, especially those with the Battle Continuation skill. Best bet would try to look for openings for a dot strike while buying time (a stronger better version of Harpe with penalties). Noble Phantasms at the very least should be as formidable as Araya's Busshari.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199987
No, you're just a dumbass if a slower guy can feint you. It's either that, or you're not as fast as you seem to think you are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199623
>>6199607
>>6199598
well shit, i never thought shiki could be that fast. imagine that, faster than cars.

even if he can't dodge bullets, that's the kind of speed that can make it hard for people to aim and shoot at somebody moving laterally towards them.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd let Caster reinforce my dick, if you know what I mean

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200006
Except Gilgamesh. The man has a flesh body.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200058
Their dots are located in the Throne of Heroes. Good luck getting there to kill them.

[Anonymous No.]

this thread is why I have never played a Type-Moon VN

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200114
Most of /jp/ read them when they were translated/being translated.
So most of us read them prior to all these threads.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200083
it all depends on the knife throw. kyokushi nanaya is described as shiki throwing the knife fast enough that you can't see the knife anymore, it just looks like silver light. and i've seen actual thrown knives before. you can still see their form after being thrown. but then again, i played darts too.

how nasu ever called that the peak of human ability when no human could possibly do it is beyond me.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm going to stop this thread and explain clearly how Kuzuki got the drop on Saber.

Saber was distracted by Caster. This is how Kuzuki managed to catch Excalibur.
Saber turned to focus on Kuzuki, and underestimates him.
Kuzuki employs a hidden technique, NOT JUST SOME MERE FEINT. His attacks that have been redirected (and therefore, ignored by Saber) turn around and strike again.
He lands a lucky blow.
Saber survives and analyzes this method of attack.
It promptly never works again, because now she knows not to ignore attacks that have been deflected.

Whether her reaction time is "supersonic" or not, when she parried Kuzuki's fists, she had no way of predicting (short of Instinct) that they were still a threat to her. Once she realized the threat, the attack became harmless to her immensely superior abilities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6199230
Magical power of being able so slap bitches lets him slap Saber and Rin's shit

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

Who would win in a fight between Shini and True Assassin? If Shiki was a pseudonym used by Kotomine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200282

The only reason True Assassin failed to kill Kotomine was because he opted not to pin him with Darks and instead "get a sure kill" with Zabaniya, which Kotomine was armored against. Hassan had no way of knowing that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200288
>pin him with Darks

...aka Ecstasy?

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200288
Kotomine was able to evade True Assassin's darts though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200288
>with Darks
it's dirks, dipshit

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200295

No, but they ARE pointy objects.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200295
I wonder what F/SN would have been like if Dakrs was its protagonist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200304

He was able to play cat-and-mouse so long as he had his Black Keys. Kotomine isn't like Ciel, he doesn't carry fifty trillion keys at any given time.

>>6200311

A dirk is a scottish short dagger. A Dark is a middle-eastern throwing dagger, in the Nasuverse.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200319
But he did close in for the kill while Kotomine still had a couple of keys left.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200327

Because he wanted to end it faster and with certainty.

He couldn't predict that Delusional Heartbeat would fail.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200318

Not any better or worse.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200356
I can imagine the dialog:

To Kotomine: "I want to fight in the grail war because I love blood and knives and hate love and peace!"

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200374

At which point, Kotomine high fives him and shows him his collection of black keys.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200374

Like I said, not any better or worse.

Darks might cook less than Shirou so that's a bonus though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200380

And then we get ten page scenes of him staying up all night instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200383

Everything important in F/SN occurs at night anyway.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

He'd fight in the grail war because he'd want to use the grail's power to stay up all night every night.

[Anonymous No.]

Fate/Stay Up All Night?

[Anonymous No.]

Fate/Stay Night is shit anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6200424

So it's perfect for /jp/.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>6200419
Now I want to play this VN.