/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

So now that episode 7 is coming (or out, depending on your knowledge of moonrunes) and answers are dropping left and right, everyone is smiling and confirming their theories (except for me, of course, I have no idea what the fuck is going on-is Sayo Yoshiokawhatshername Beatrice and the culprit? Jessica? Battler's fathers?) I wanted to check up the experience so far for my fellow /jp/ers.
So, if you feel like it, tell me which was the most suprising plot twist, the most obvious and the most scary moment(s) in your opinion. Also, I'd like to know your favorite theory.
In my case, it goes like this:

-Surprising: Beato's act (except that not really) is revelead, EP 3
-Unsurprising: Battler's game nature is explained (being the pussy that he is, it was obvious that no murders would take place in his game) EP6
-Scary: Lamb's smiles, music changes EP3(or 4?) >HEY. IN YOUR (DATE) DID BATTLER-KUN CAME HOME?
-Favorite theory: Beatrice is a private subway that ran over all of the family members.

[Anonymous No.]

bump

[Anonymous No.]

Batman eva

[Anonymous No.]

RIFYU THREAD

[Anonymous No.]

Sayoshiyatriceyasu is the first culprit.
one of the adults going berserk is the optional culprit, mostly Eva(ep3) or Kyrie(ep4).

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016102

[Anonymous No.]

Beatrice has a penis

No, really

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016127

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016152
if someone can translate this it would be nice

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016166
It's just a fat joke

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016166

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016010
I didn't take that theory seriously when I came up with it, and neither should you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016193
thats going to kill your entire family, Ange

[Anonymous No.]

I'll bite.

Surprising - Natsuhi and baby that fell off a cliff
Unsurprising - Ep3 Beato's aboutface - it came a little sudden and there was like a bunch more games after it, seemed a little suspicious; still fun though
Scary - the 2nd day of ep 1; Battler sticking his hand outside of the closed room's window
Favorite theory - that Kasumi is really Kyrie

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Alright, me too.

Surprising - Ep. 5, the emergence of the Man from 19 Years Ago and Natsuhi throwing the baby from the cliff; Erika going back and killing everyone in ep. 6
Unsurprising - That Bernkastel was actually not on Battler's side
Scary - Ep. 1 the first twilight (the circle on the rose shed shutter, scared the hell out of me), Ep. 2 when Rosa discovers the bodies in the cathedral
Favorite theory: Featherine = Asumu, Kasumi is Kyrie

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016601
Bern so moe

[Anonymous No.]

> subway theory
That one was so close, too. The only thing it got wrong was the stuff after "sub". It wasn't "subWAY", it was "subMARINE"!

[Anonymous No.]

I hope the screenshot generator uploads ep7 characters soon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6016010

Eh I like the concept.


-Surprising: EP3 troll.
-Unsurprising: Fiction theory.
-Scary: EP1. System0. Still the best.
-Favorite theory: Fiction for the overall story. Kinzo's will being murderous, and Kyrie hijacking it (sometimes) for the gameboard.

I fucking bit into the goddamn stake and magical circles red herring. That still fucking pisses me off more than Shkanon ever will. That shit ain't foreshadowed properly. How were we supposed to tell that it never happened IRL?! I MAD.

[Anonymous No.]

>I fucking bit into the goddamn stake and magical circles red herring. That still fucking pisses me off more than Shkanon ever will. That shit ain't foreshadowed properly. How were we supposed to tell that it never happened IRL?! I MAD.

I read something like this earlier, but I didn't understand what it meant. If it isn't too much of a bother, can you please elaborate on it a little?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018110

That was probably me.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the real incident with Kyrie and Rudolf didn't have any stakes and magic circles right? I just can't see how we were supposed to figure that out. Those were the corner stones and stumbling blocks of several theories because they were always constant. Several questions were raised several times as to the motive for actually putting in stakes and drawing magic circles.

Unless we were supposed to go, "Oh MAN! Those stakes and magic circles don't fit in with my theory! I'll just disregard it!" That sucks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018142

Those were what Yasu was PLANNING to do, which is why they're in her stories.

They didn't actually happen in real life since the adults found the gold. Maybe.

As far as I know we're only shown a small piece of the "real world", and none of the summaries I've seen have even mentioned the servants, which makes me think they might have been the real First Twilight, like in Ep3.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018165

I just want clear clues pointing out the possibility that they never happened.

Because you know, one of the constants in the story never actually happening is a pretty big deal.

Preferably in EP 1-5.

[Anonymous No.]

Wait what, the stakes and magic circles weren't actually there?

Huh, the first few episodes, Ryukishi had a really good idea, and executed it fairly well, but these core chapters are just fucking ridiculous. I'm almost waiting for the inevitable Alchemist remake/rewrite of this story, like they did with Higurashi. Just hopefully minus a fucking space alien god end.

[Anonymous No.]

>there were no stakes and no magic circles
What the shit?
These seemed like fairly important things to me and are in all episodes 1-4, or at least the stakes are, I'm not so sure about the magic writing things.

He's got quite some balls to just say OH YEAH THOSE PLOT POINTS THAT CONNECT ALL THE GAMES TOGETHER NEVER REALLY HAPPENED if that's what he's saying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018215
>>6018204

I'm kinda surprised that /jp/ never brought it up before. Must have been lost in the deluge of the Shkanon debates.

Thinking about it some more I think I found one clue. ONE.

Let's start. Reading EP5, and the detective proclamation, knox rules, etc. and thinking about blue and read truth and how it works, pieces, and game masters weaving tales, one would come upon the thought of fiction. People were talking about it a little after EP5 right?

Now, the reader goes backs and rereads everything. He notices that in EP4, EP 1-2 were bottle letters. He starts thinking. Instead of asking where these 2 come from, why don't I turn things around and ask where did EP 3-5 come from?

The reader thinks about the Witch Hunt professor guys and the Rokkenjima serial incident fandom and compares it to fandoms he knows. Perhaps these episodes were fanfiction of the bottle letters???? He goes through with that line of thinking.

So the first fanfiction is EP3. What is different? Hmmmmm, the stakes were sloppy here, and Eva survived. According to Ryukishi in EP5. The games all have clues and nothing should be discarded carelessly.

So assuming Eva survived IRL just like Ange's 1998, did that mean that EP3 is closest to truth? And if so, maybe what the fanfiction writer is trying to say is that the stakes don't matter? Maybe they don't exist!

DUN DUN DUN.

Honestly I think what I wrote is just a pile of bullshit and unfair. This is just the sort of ~ACE DETECTIVE~ laser like reasoning that Battler (our audience surrogate) admits to being unable to do. It's not his style and Beato made the game solvable for him.

[Anonymous No.]

It's not that the stakes and magic circles weren't actually there; remember that the police recovered Mammon, which Ange later got ahold of. It's just that there wasn't a serial murder as detailed in the tales.

But yes, the early episodes were generally a lot better than this bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018255

And of course this is all just justification after the fact.

I'd have never figured this out back in EP5. Thinking about fiction only got me to Beato being the writer. (only partially true)

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018276
Of course, Ep3-7 being written by somebody else is no indication that they're merely "fanfiction".

Hachijou knows far more about Rokkenjima and the Ushiromiyas than anyone unconnected with that incident rightly should.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018273

Oh damn forgot about that detail.

I guess I'll just have to wait for an Anon who has actually read the EP7 tea party to clarify whether there were closed rooms, stakes, and circles or whether it was just s straight up massacre.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018282
> Hachijou knows far more about Rokkenjima and the Ushiromiyas than anyone unconnected with that incident rightly should.
Well that's because she's Asumu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018288
God, I hope so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018283
It was a straight-up massacre. Yasu was the fifth person to be killed. (Kyrie thought it was the sixth, but Eva survived.) From then on, she and Rudolf went around killing people, using the pretense of "testing" the cousins to get them to come out to various locations on their own so that Rudolf and Kyrie could finish them off separately.

No magic circles.
No stakes of purgatory.
No closed rooms.
Final destination.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018303
Wait, so where are the servants during all of this?

I knew that Kyrie and Rudolf massacred the cousins, but I've never heard any mention of Nanjo + servants.

And, of course, this doesn't explain where Mammon came from.

...We're totally being fucked with here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018303

....

Goddamnit Ryukishi.

I fucking hate myself for still believing this fucker clued us in somehow. I need to reread 1-4 again.

We never saw the servants getting killed?

Kyrie killed Jessica, Rudolf killed George, and then what? How/when were they stopped? Any details on Battler and Maria?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018309
> Maria
Fate not explicitly stated, but it's heavily implied that Kyrie killed her. With a knife.

> Battler
Fate unknown. He disappeared on the way to the chapel. May have been killed by Kyrie, may have survived and become Amakusa.

> Rudolf
Killed by Eva after killing George.

> Kyrie
Killed by Eva after stating that she never loved Ange, which caused Eva to rage and swear that she'd raise Ange in Kyrie's place.

Gohda was taken out in the servants' room, by the way. It's probable that the other servants, plus Nanjo, were similarly taken out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018309
>>6018307
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Episodes were meant to reveal the events that occurred on the original Rokkenjima. That was not their purpose, though they may have contained hints here and there to what actually happened. Their purpose was to reveal Beatrice's heart: who she is and what her motives were.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018321
Is the existence of a First Twilight ever specifically DENIED? Or is the part of the game where that would normally occur completely glossed over?

Because that's pretty much the only way I can see Nanjo + remaining servants not even being mentioned (which, by the way, would mean that Nanjo is finally a goddamn FT death). They're not Battler, their life/death status in 1998 isn't intentionally made ambiguous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018329
>You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Episodes were meant to reveal the events that occurred on the original Rokkenjima.

That is, however, the stated goal of the real main character, Ange.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018337
Who herself is a fictional character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018334
Yes, because the adults solve the epitaph before the twilights can even begin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018329

What.

In my estimation (let's assume Beato wrote the bottle letters for EP 1-2) that makes her a goddamn bitch. What the fuck does the world care about her? Just the selfish ramblings of a culprit wanting to confess but be a little bit clever about it, ala And then there were none?

Let's take the Meta world view, this still makes her a selfish bitch. FIGURE ME OUT BAAATTTLEEER. What the fuck are you doing to my family, did you just make Rosa a goddamn cannibal?! The fuck is wrong with you. SHUT UP ABOUT THEM. FIIIGUURE ME OUUUT. Then she runs away and goes into a coma and dies. SELFISH. BITCH. Of course Battler wants to know what's up his family, and we do to.

And to take the real world view. This makes Ryukishi a GODDAMN BITCH. Since you know, the first rule of a GODDAMN MURDER MYSTERY is to be about the murders. HOW THEY WERE DONE. WHO DID IT. WHY DID THEY DO IT. Umineko's mystery is all about the tangential points related to that, the backstory and Beatrice.

Anyway, I kinda had it pegged since before that Umineko wasn't a mystery really and that all of the above points are true. I agree with you.

It's just that the lack of stakings weren't really fucking clued. Whatsofuckingever. That's my only gripe.

Fuck it I want some clues.

[Anonymous No.]

So, if this was the 'cruel reality' how the hell Super-Battler going to pull 'not sad and not scary' story for Ange? Because this one was sad and scary as fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

Umineko is more fucking convoluted than Lost.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018397

Lie.

How can a 6 year old tell?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018363

The letters from Beato did they come? Was it confirmed from Yasu?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018356
Actually, we don't know how much of Ange's journey in Ep4 was true or not.

>>6018363
Then the servants not mentioned might as well still be alive. It helps that two of them received massive payouts in the mail two weeks later.
...Does anyone ever DIE in this goddamn game?
>>6018390
>It's just that the lack of stakings weren't really fucking clued.

Mammon being completely unstained and just discovered lying around could be one.

[Anonymous No.]

-Surprising: EP3 end, Logic error, Ep5 ????
-Unsurprising: Shkannotrice, without love it cannot be seen
-Scary: Episode 7 tea party, Battler in the closed room in episode 6, Happy Halloween for Maria
-Favorite theory: Teatrice, Pony theory

[Anonymous No.]

I think it's something like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018593

I dispute this.

Backstory is awesome. I've been waiting for that shit forever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018623
It was awesome when trap demons interviewed people in the theatre, but then it dragged on for about 4-5 chapters without much development.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018593
The epitaph got solved? What?!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018593
I actually thought the EP7 Tea Party and Bern vs Will managed to outdo EP5's ????, and EP5's ???? was fucking awesome.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018643
Yes, even two times. First Beatrice solved it and explained it in details, and then in the tea party the adults solved it too, and there was a brief explanation again.

[Anonymous No.]

-Surprising: Beato's act in EP3, Erika's TIP when executed after EP6
-Unsurprising: Shkanon
-Scary: Closed room bits and finger rape scene in EP6
-Favorite theory: Beatrice is da bomb

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018647
you trollin. EP5 ???? was filled with love, anger, sadness, and MOTHER FUCKING EPICNESS. You sure you got all that in ep7?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018647
I know this is opinions, but I honestly don't see how Will vs Bern can be considered to be remotely as amazing as EP5's ????. In fact, Will vs Bern wasn't even that good of a scene.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018675

It all depends on how much you get attached to the characters. The reason Musou Rosa was so loved was because we saw the entire episode from her viewpoint and dealt with her severe and fucked up issues, then in the end we saw her defend her daughter to her last, finally realizing the thing she loves most in the world is her Maria (the fact that it took her being literally at death's door to realize this speaks volumes on how messed up she is).

An action scene is only as good as how much you care for the well being of the people involved. That's why Ep5 ??? was awesome since we saw the complete emotional set-up necessary in one complete package with no breaks.

On WIll vs Bern I have no opinion because I can't read Moon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018666
In terms of FUN as the chart goes by it is probably EP5's ????, since EP7's tea party was much more about bawwwwing than going FUCK YEAR. But I think Bern was a much more powerful villain in EP7 than Erika was, uh, ever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018688
fun chart is actually pretty accurate. though i there should be a bit more credit for ep3 troll and ep1 was over rated. also ep4 is MUCH better if you already figured out beato was a good person.

Bern sets up ange with a horrible life, who then dies to revive battler who kills the woman he loves/loves him back because of his sister<--or so he thinks cause it's pretty much bern bored with nothing better to do

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018693

So much BAAAAWWW in that scene when I read it again goddamn.

And don't diss Rougoku at the end of EP1. That song is so tragically underused.

[Anonymous No.]

What surprised me the most was that Beatrice motive could be something so vapid.
Seriously, fuck her, I'll fucking hate to see her redeemed in the last episode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018538
>>Mammon being completely unstained and just discovered lying around could be one.

No. to me it doesn't count. Mammon is supposed to be in Kinzo's corpse, which is already supposed to be death, so everything about his corpse is a fantasy to begin with.
If it was in anybody's else body, I would be okay.
But with Kinzo, it only looks like a hint that Kinzo is already dead and that there is something fishy with him.
Way before looking like a hint that the staking didn't happened. And if it was not for Kinzo, Ryukishi could have taken one of the 6 other stakes without any problem.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for ep8 to destroy almost everything in ep7. It will be beautiful. Very beautiful.

And OP,
-Surprising: I don't really know, umineko is not the most surprising story so far... In fact, I would say Kyrie and Rudolf become insane without a reason.
-Unsurprising: Bern.
-Scary: mmm...Maybe Battler trapped in the logic error.
-Favorite theory: Submarinetrice. Or everyonetrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018688
since EP7's tea party was much more about bawwwwing than going FUCK YEAR.
...what?
you were not " FUCK YEAH" when Will appeared and saved Lion with executionner?
How can this be possible?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018648
By the way they are all completely retarded.
"HO, GOD, I REALLY WONDER WHAT ORLUD CAN BE IF YOU MOVE THE LETTERS. I HAVE NO IDEA AT ALL."
Okay, it's in english. But still.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018593
Beato vs Erika is still the highlight for me. Everything leading up to it (including Kanon's little "a witch is...") was really nice.

[Anonymous No.]

This may be a stupid and utterly retarded thing to say, but I'm going to put it out there anyway.
Perhaps the hint that the magic circles and stuff didn't exist was the fact they were magic in the first place.
This whole game is based around denying magic/witches (and we know it's possible otherwise Battler could never win) ===> that includes anything related to witches ===> stakes and magic circles.

Also can someone tell me exactly where it says they never existed? I am completely lost.

[Anonymous No.]

>Also can someone tell me exactly where it says they never existed? I am completely lost.
If episodes 1-6 are fiction, it never happened.
In ep7 there were no stakes and circles.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018710
That moment was FUCK YEAR, sure, but on the whole, Ep7's tea party was one big FUCK NO BAWWWW especially compared with Ep5.

Ep5: Sad but loving Yakusoku scene
Ep7: KYRIE TIME

Ep5: Battler reaches the truth, becomes badass and awesome
Ep7: Ange reaches the truth, becomes insane and burger

Ep5: Battler fights Erika, finally kicks her ass and gives her what's coming to her
Ep7: Will fights Bern knowing he's going to die, dies

Ep5: Battler swears to take back Beatrice's game, ends with him confidently facing off Erika and Bern and Erika raging
Ep7: Will and Lion swear to keep fighting and find the miracle, ends with Bern laughing and turning them into cat food

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018724

It hasn't been about the witch's game for quite some time now. And even then, denying the existence of the stakes and circles weren't specifically in Battler's win condition. He just needed a series of tricks that made it possible for ANY human to commit the crime. (the seeking of truth came later after he grew up and away from being sad that his family keeps on dying and he left Ange). Plus I'm sure his piece saw the stakes and circles, and he generally bases his assumptions on that.

>>6018727

>Ep5: Battler reaches the truth, becomes badass and awesome
>Ep7: Ange reaches the truth, becomes insane and burger

I lol'd

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018688
>But I think Bern was a much more powerful villain in EP7 than Erika was, uh, ever.

The thing is, EP5's ???? Tea Party wasn't merely Battler vs Erika, but Battler vs Erika & Eiserne Jungfrau & Bern, not to mention that time was against him, and the whole thing was a simply amazing comeback, with him pulling a sword out of his chest and becoming a wizard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018705
So, what is Beatrice's motive then?

[Anonymous No.]

>Detective has an objective viewpoint
>Battler is detective in EP 1-4
>Battler sees stakes and circles

FUCK YOU RYU.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018774
That's Meta-Battler, not Piece-Battler.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018756
Yeah, Bern was still a far more effective villain in EP7. I like the Eiserne a lot as characters, but even they+Erika, as far as villainy goes, didn't do much for me. And Bern was pretty much sitting on the sidelines, eating popcorn and trolling Erika.

Battler was incredible, no argument, but the desperate struggle against hopelessness in EP7 somehow resonated with me on a deeper level than Battler's Big Comeback (which I would have easily named as the best scene in the series up until EP7 came out.) YMMV.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018774
You miss the point. Battler surely saw stakes in episode 1, but it's all fiction, and it never happened. In the real events, there were no stakes. At least it was said so in the end of ep7.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018779

Erika's authority comes from the actions of her piece you know.

And everyone generally takes Battler's observations as correct after EP5. We were wrong of course since

>>6018782 is right. Fiction. Unclued, unforeshadowed stakes and circles don't really exist piece of shit fiction.

FUCK YOU RYUKISHI

"And then I knew."

FUCK YOU TOO BATTLER

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018780
>Battler was incredible, no argument, but the desperate struggle against hopelessness in EP7 somehow resonated with me on a deeper level than Battler's Big Comeback (which I would have easily named as the best scene in the series up until EP7 came out.) YMMV.
> the desperate struggle against hopelessness in EP7

It was the same in EP5. In fact, the hopelessness lasted even longer, since Beato & Natsuhi got her asses kicked badly since the beginning of the trial, this got carried over to the Tea Party, and was reversed during the ???? Party. So, basically, it was the same, just that Battler got badass at the end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018779
Though it had seemed brutal, we'd left the weapons that had been stuck into Eva oba-san and Hideyoshi oji-san to preserve the crime scene.

...So this was the first time we were able to have a perfect view of the entire weapon.
As we had expected, the weapon was not bladed like a knife, but shaped like an icepick, ...or rather, a thin stake.
And also, ...it had a spiral-shaped pattern that might have been like a drill.


Maria hadn't gone out with everyone else, but had remained in the boiler room.
The thing she was staring fixedly at was probably not Grandfather's body, but the 'demon's icepick' that was sticking out of his forehead.

There was a design in the handle that had to have been done in a devil motif.
Was it a weapon with some occult meaning? Definitely.
"...This is, .........horrible. ...She has passed away. ......This, probably, reached her lungs.........Not much time has passed since she died."
"Jessicaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Damn it, damn iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!"

Piece Battler. Just random things I just took from ep1 and 2, you can search for more if you want. But Battler definitely saw the stakes in the corpses. Many times.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018772
Being a slut.
The best thing is that I'm not even trolling.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018181
>>6018204
>>6018215
Because in all episodes 'the culprit' is Beatrice, who kills according to epitaph and uses occult stuff. But those episodes didn't happen, they are fiction. In the "real" event (suppose that Bern shows us truth) the murders didn't follow epitaph and wasn't occult at all. The real culprit is different. How is it hard to understand?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018808
Yeah, I'm going to have to say the sense of hopelessness was on a completely different level in EP7, and that was reflected in the way all of the characters acted. Everyone in EP5 knew Erika was a lying bitch pushing forth a false truth, the stakes in EP7 involve truth itself being presented as the "enemy".

Will with his limbs torn off and cornered telling Bern to go fuck herself and submit a court proposal if she wants him to leave Lion is still badass, just a different kind of a badass than Battler still managing to save things, even with how bad it got.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018782
And so it is even worse. It is litteraly a " LOL IT IS USELESS DON'T CARE ABOUT IT".
Fuck, the "real event"?
EVERY hint we have are in FICTIONS. So we have to believe things we can see in fictions, in other case everything would be useless.
Here, I just see Ryukishi here " FUCK YOU detective authority, I don't care about your utility".
Yeah sure, we can see the real events. Which still don't exist in the "real case" we are supposed to solve. It is nothing more than a crappy bypass.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018821
So, knox 8th?
I don't care about " bla bla bla this is reality".
Umineko is NOT real. Before being anything else, it is something that us, readers, are supposed to be able to solve. THIS is the most important thing in this game. Even if there is fanfictions in it, it don't mean that the author can make everything he wants.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018831
>So we have to believe things we can see in fictions, in other case everything would be useless.

You missed all that "trust between author and reader" stuff, huh?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018842
Something that he discarded himself you mean?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018847
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018841
This is why some people believe that Bern is shitting us. Basically, she just 'magically' kills illusion of the witch, that "covered the truth" and the truth is 'magically' revealed.
Personally, I think Battler has a good chance of telling the real story in the final episode, if he's really survived, which is not impossible an actually very probable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018858
The truth isn't magically revealed.
If you think the meta-world take place in the imagination of someone who was on the island at that time, then it make sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018842
No, but how are you supposed to know that the stakes are not involved in reality, or that Kyrie and Rudolf will become insane and kill everyone?
Let's put the detective authority aside for now, with this kind of tricks it is just useless.
Either you accept everything you see as a clue. And so the mystery is NOT solvable, umineko is more than 90% of red herring and " Lol fanfiction from yasu".
Either you can't accept anything. Because you can't be sure that the fact of kyrie being a heartless bitch is true, when everything else around is false.

That's why the detective authority was supposed to exist, by the way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018858
I know, I think the same thing.
>>6018862
And by which mean is this supposed to make sense?
The meta-world is far too wide and coutain too much true informations to be limited to this. Also, it wouldn't solve anything and would just make things even more complicated.

[Anonymous No.]

Why the fuck does everyone in Umineko want to whiteknight Beatrice?
She is a drama-whore bitch who decided to kill people just because she was an indecisive.
That's by far the most self-centered motive ever, she should be left rotting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018870
The meta-world is made in great majority from the universe Yasu and Maria created.
The rest are concepts from detective novels and would you know but Yasu is a huge detective novel fan.

Yasu's imagination is supposed to be very wide.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018879
I am not talking about this here. I am talking about everything which is supposed to be true, even if not involved in the murder. It includes the way in which everyone act and the relationship which are present. Espectially meta-Battler.
And again I still don't see why it would explain the fact that "bern is not throwing the truth from nowhere". Yasu killing her own illusion herself for fun, with van dine, so we can see the truth?
I'm okay for the " Rokkenjima-meta-world" being in Yasu's head.
But the meta-meta world, with will, lambda, angeburger, and Bern, err, no. There is not only one level of meta-world, it is very clear since a long time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018894
Yasu's head is a clusterfuck.
It just means she is conflicted about revealing the truth or not.
Will is the concept of the DID rules for god sake, stop thinking he is somehow real.

Also the stuff about the past of some characters were most likely added by Hachijou from her investigations.
There was no talk about Battler's birth in episode 1-2 for example.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018909
>DID rules
Revealing I guess, but I meant Dine's rules.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018909
Except Yasu was shot in this "real truth" so in her head no world can exist anymore.
And this interpretation doesn't explain how Ange will know "what happened on that day".

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018930
Eva was shot as well, just saying.

[Anonymous No.]

Fucking retards. Read the episode first, instead of just spoilers, to make opinions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018932
Well, fuck. Isn't it a MIRACLE that she, such skillful and experienced shooter, missed 3-4 times, while shooting from a close range at different targets and mistook a bare scratch for the FATAL HEAD wound?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018983
Remember the siestas.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018985
Kyrie wasn't the one have the broken gun. Just saying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018831
The thing is the fictions are important, because the explain us 2 things:

1. Beatrice's true nature
2. What happens if the Epitaph is solved

The closed rooms, one way or another, on their vast majority, forces us to us Shkanontrice up to some degree. That's their point. This is precisely why Beato expected Battler to remember by EP4.

During EP3, Eva solved the Epitaph, yet the killings continued. It has to be noticed that, whilst Beatrice's killings involved the stakes, this time no stakes were used, which shows us there was a different killer.

In EP7 we're told that, in real Rokkenjima, the Epitaph was solves, meaning that Beatrice never killed anyone. In fact, her plan many not have involved killed a single person. In fact, if we can use EP6 as a parallel, the game may have been set so that it was solved, and everyone got a happy end, thus "The Golden Land". However, a) Either things went out of hand unexpectedly, as in EP7's Tea Party, or b) There may have been another factor which influenced Yasu's game, much like Erika in Battler's game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018971
Or why /jp/ is awesome. As always.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6018971
This. I don't want to debate episode 7 concepts with people who only have bits and pieces of second-hand information, maybe even mixed with misinformation.

[Anonymous No.]

The epitaph is solved on the first night in all episodes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019001
>What happens if the Epitaph is solved
Except you can't know for sure that things will go this way if the epitaph is solved. Kyrie and narrator mentions, that Eva herself could go on the similar killing spree and these kakeras also exist. So you can't be sure that the truth would be exactly as shown.

>During EP3, Eva solved the Epitaph, yet the killings continued. It has to be noticed that, whilst Beatrice's killings involved the stakes, this time no stakes were used, which shows us there was a different killer.
Except they were. Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi all had the stakes in them. Later Krauss and Natsuhi too.
The painting of 07151129 was made with the same paint as magic circles.

>>6019004
This is not limited to /jp/, though.

[Anonymous No.]

Am I the only one who finds it funny that Rosa and Maria have never been staked?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019001
Thank you, but nothing new for me here, I've also read this episode, thanks.
Assuming that ep7 is the truth. I'm not okay with it but IDC.
How are we supposed to be able to solve the """real""" rokkenjima when we can'teven have a clue about what is true and what is not? In every episodes?
Before this, the detective authority was helping. "yeah ok so it's a fiction but it's true, because we are in a game, and ryukishi is thinking about the game so there are clues in fiction."
But now, we don't have this anymore, ryukishi just hrowed a giant " fuck you detective authority, this was fiction, no matter what battler saw you can't be sure that it was true in the real rokkenjima, so go and and theorize about everything randomly".
It was supposed to be solvable since ep4, you know.
I don't care about "beatrice true nature" or whatever, if I believed in what I saw in ep7 I would say that okay, for this, fictions work.
But even if I believed in ep7, this way there is no way to solve the real rokkenjima seriously, without making a baseless random theory with everyone and just waiting to see if it is confirmed or not.
I don't care about theses goddamn fiction. Umineko is a game between us and Ryukishi before being Beatrice's tale, so the good thing to do would have been to give the stakes and everything else a role in the real world, or more hints that they are unrelated to everything and that theorizing with them is useless, instead of making a giant red herring with more than 90% of his novel.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019021
Because Yasu probably thinks Maria wouldn't want them staked.

And Maria is Yasu's friend, so she doesn't get staked.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019017
>>Except they were. Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi all had the stakes in them. Later Krauss and Natsuhi too.

It is even worse than this. No stakes in ep3?
Meta-stakes are making everything in the first twilight, and Leviathan/Kyrie Rudolf/Belphe.
Basically it was THE episode for theorizing about the stakes and their meaning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019031
However, Rosa....

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019026
Whoever said we were supposed to solve the "real" Rokkenjima? People didn't even start talking about that until the chiru arcs. The characters in the "fake" Rokkenjimas are the same characters in the "real" one. It's better to consider them as alternate kakera since they are all possible, rather than all fakes some people wrote about a single incident in a single world where something entirely different happened.

[Anonymous No.]

So the individual games are all unsolvable? I don't care if it isn't the "truth", I want to know how the murders in EP1 were pulled off!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019017
>Except you can't know for sure that things will go this way if the epitaph is solved. Kyrie and narrator mentions, that Eva herself could go on the similar killing spree and these kakeras also exist. So you can't be sure that the truth would be exactly as shown.

No no, my point simply was that, even if the Epitaph is solved, the killings continue. That's it.


>Except they were. Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi all had the stakes in them. Later Krauss and Natsuhi too.
>The painting of 07151129 was made with the same paint as magic circles.

Whoops, my bad then. But either, way, I think there was something odd with EP3, with the whole change in witches, and all.

That, and EP5 and EP6 sort of hint that the whole deal may have started as a play, but due to certain circumstances, things went wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019046
They are solvable, in fact, EP7 tells you how to solve them, if you had no idea how it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019044
Kakera doesn't exist in umineko.And

>>Whoever said we were supposed to solve the "real" Rokkenjima
I think it was supposed to be the goal of the game to begin with, even if with ll the lolromance apparently everydody is forgetting it, even the author.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019053
Not really.
Sorry, "the chainlock is an illusion" Don't say who is the one who killed them.
And some of them are even more vague, so...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019044
Ep1 epilogue, ep1 Tea Party, ep1 hidden tea party.

>>6019046
We already solved it ages ago. Will confirms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019044
Kakera don't exist in umineko.And

>>Whoever said we were supposed to solve the "real" Rokkenjima
I think it was supposed to be the goal of the game to begin with, even if with all the lolromance apparently everydody is forgetting it, even the author.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019060
And then you realize that this letter was written before the event even took place.
What a fucking bitch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019059
>Sorry, "the chainlock is an illusion" Don't say who is the one who killed them.

Indeed, but if you remember what you got told about the 1st Twilight, then you get a good idea who may have killed them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019062
>Kakera don't exist in umineko
Which is what ignorant "lol fake" theorists who want to find the "true" happenings on Rokkenjima really believe. R07 has always showed kakeras and the letters in parallel.

The "true" Rokkenjima has no significance. The things that have significance are the episodes presented and the truth of the characters in them which leads them to murder. Regardless of the game presented, yasu still exists there and has the same past as always. Kinzo is still dead. The bomb still exists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019063
It doesn't matter. Even if her plan succeed in reality (and if we don't trust Bern, we can't be sure that it didn't), she wanted us to know the real truth, not the lolwitch, that was written in that letter. Then this letter is supposed to give us hints to the real truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019082
Yeah but it's an event that she herself engineered.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019100
Yeah. That's like shitting over a plate, and writing a letter providing hints to who shat over the plate and how. You still shat all over a goddamn plate.

Unless we do have one of those guys on the island be a Lambda counterpart, but I fucking doubt it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019100
Battler only likes Shannon because of a childhood promise.

Apparently childhood promises override judging mass murder and a complete disregard for human life.

[Anonymous No.]

So what does Battler changed when he came back ?
Did he put grease in the guns or something ?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019149
He doesn't like Shannon, though,
That's like saying that because you like Hermione, that means you like Emma Watson.
Well, I'd fuck them both, but you know what I mean.

>>6019154
Think about it, Shannon was about to move on with good guy fat George, when Battler the stud showed up.

[Anonymous No.]

stakes = metaphors for the sins the people who got staked by them carried.

also, how was the logic error scary?

[Anonymous No.]

I still think Yasu never killed anyone. Why do you think she did anyway? We have a bunch of red listing the things she did NOT kill for, we have Battler being all desperate after realising the truth about her, we have no confirmation she killed anyone. We see a person with endless imagination, superb acting skills and no will to live say she would kill everyone if they didn't solve the epitaph. She also said she would have set the bomb, it's just not set yet. Where's the red? Where is her killing anyone at all?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019211
We know for sure she didn't kill anyone, everybody know it.

But she still planned to do it and she started this whole shitfest.
The fact that she couldn't do it because she failed in her bet doesn't change anything, it's the same fucking shit.

Also pieces can't act against their personalities and piece Beatrice kill in every fiction meaning she was really planning on killing them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019217
How are you sure she would kill them and wasn't just performing a role? By someone else's will too, maybe.
I just don't buy her motive. Or, rather, she doesn't have one. And she doesn't express the desire to kill anyone or ill will towards Ushiromiyas. And we have a whole episode about how important the motive is. It doesn't add up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019217
And MARIA also killed Rosa. Your point?

I think EP5 and EP6 serve as hints that the whole thing was supposed to be just a play, but some fucker got involved and shit began.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019223
It does add up actually.
You just refuse to believe it.
And she really planned on doing, pieces etc...

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019224
That was fantasy version.
In the mystery version of every episodes, Beatrice kill people.
It has nothing to do with revenge or shit, she just do her plans.

Anyways, what the fuck do you think Yasu was doing then?
"Oh I prepared some guns and a bomb that just need to be activated but it was just a prank, sorry".
You guys are fucking delusional.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019232
That's what makes no sense. Why so many guns?
She only needs one, maybe 2 in case one is damaged or stolen from her. However, there's one for basically each one of them.

As for the bomb, it was already there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019240
She prepared the code for the bomb, notice how the code pin is a date that is important only for her.

And it's normal that she put every guns at the same place.

[Anonymous No.]

She planned on killing, that's really clear if you actually read episode 7.
I know people here like Beatrice but you should stop whiteknighting her like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019225
In the end Yasu's motive is totally vague. This said, her backstory stops in 1984; who knows what kind of shit happened between 1984 and the massacre in 1986? We only saw a quick flashback with Yasu's ranting about being furniture and unable to love.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019252
Yasu's motive isn't vague.
Claire and Will say that the motive is clearly found in episode 1-6.
Basically what happened during the 2 blank years was so obvious that there was no point in talking about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019245
Yeah, but remember that, by the time the adults show up, the bomb was already deactivated - if it was ever activated.

If you go by EP3, the reason why she painted the code may have been so that Eva deactivates the bomb, since she should probably know about it.

>>6019251
It's not mere whiteknighting. It simply doesn't add up that Battler would ask her for forgiveness and even fell in love for her if she actually planned to kill his family. Even Will seemed to sympathise with her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019258
The fact that it's there doesn't mean it is what you think it is, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019262
The bomb takes 24 hours to explode.
So the parents came just before Yasu could activate the bomb.

And meta-Battler is a concept, he isn't the real Battler.
If you understand what he conceptualize, you will understand why he forgave and fell for meta-Beatrice, who is also not the real Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019265
Yeah of course.
It's supposed to be obvious but nobody can realize it because we are all morons.

Please try to tell me what else WHO WAS SHOWN IN EPISODE 1-6 CLEARLY could have happened during these 2 years.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019269
It doesn't matter if she's not the real Beatrice, she still represents the real one mate. And this change of heart took place when he reached the truth. Seriously, there's simply no way to twist this.

>>6019272
Check Beatrice's words whenever she speaks about relationships in EP2 in front of Shannon and Kanon. In fact, her idea of men seems not to be the best. It'd seem she regards them as beasts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019245
Except the fucking bomb isn't activated by the code. Read the goddamn episode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019291
Meta-Beatrice represent the illusion, she covers the truth.
You could say she is a scapegoat who cover the real murderers.
Meta-Battler only wish was to find the truth for his family sake.
He really didn't want to find the truth just for the sake of it, there is a reason why he was so adamant in not wanting to think his family could be culprits.

Now it's easy to think that when Battler realized the entire truth, he realized that Beatrice was hiding the harsh truth that his parents were murderer by playing the culprit, it's easy to see why he would apologize and want to resuscitate her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019291
And?
It's normal she got that idea after learning about Kinzo incestuous affair.

Or what you think Krauss or Gohda raped her during the 2 years?

Also remember, no revenge.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019316
Oh, come on, seriously dude? So, Beatrice is there asking him who she is, to remember his sin, and all that shit, and then he falls in love just because she's a scapegoat?

Battler is even saying he plans to finish this game, and shit in EP6.

[Anonymous No.]

Even after EP7, I still don't get Yasu's reason to murder the whole family and their servants (or at least, planning to). I must be loveless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019323
No, revenge is not what I'm point out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019330
He plans on finishing the game and taking Beatrice with him.
Meaning he wants to keep the truth to himself after defeating the other people who just want to reveal the truth without caring about the heart of the people left over.

What life do you think Ange could have if everybody knew that her parents are murderers? This is exactly what Battler wanted to avoid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019341
So, what are you pointing out?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019345
And now this "truth" has been revealed and she's bullied because of that. So how do you think Battler's gonna save her from it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019316
>He really didn't want to find the truth just for the sake of it, there is a reason why he was so adamant in not wanting to think his family could be culprits.
Actually what he promises in the first tea party is that he'll find an mystery explanation that fits. It doesn't have to be the truth. The game is mystery vs fantasy, not reality vs fantasy, so even if Bern's version is the truth Battler doesn't have to stick to it. So I think he'll eventually troll Bern by offering an explanation that works with the facts while being less cruel than her truth.

[Anonymous No.]

This thread makes me think at least one of two things is probably true.
The first is that Ryukishi was never really straight up with us about what we were going to read.
The second is Ryukishi has lost the power to present anything in unambiguous terms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019476
>The first is that Ryukishi was never really straight up with us about what we were going to read.
From the original introduction to the visual novels:

>The genre of this work is probably a serial murder mystery.
>However, that does not guarantee that reasoning and guesswork are possible.
Seems pretty exact to me. He's been giving hints since the beginning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019349
That even though Beatrice is the source of this issue, she's not necessarily the sole reason these things are happening.

[Anonymous No.]

Bernkastel for me looks like the media that wants to bother with the famous people lifes
Leave Beatrice alone

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019476
Are you telling me r07 is autistic?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019245
>She prepared the code for the bomb, notice how the code pin is a date that is important only for her.
See, shit like this is why people assume /jp/ is full of idiots.

There is no code to set the bomb. Beatrice never set the bomb.

The bomb is controlled by a switch in the grandfather clock in the room with the gold. Beatrice wasn't going to set it until the next day, so when the adults got there, it wasn't yet set. Eva is the one that set it to go off, on purpose.

The code is for the security boxes with some extra money that she converted from the gold. She hands this over along with the code when she is explaining everything to the adults.

I don't mind if you hate Beatrice, even though it's obvious that there's something else going on here, but if you want to blame her for something, at least blame her for the correct things. The only thing she did wrong was make a plan to murder, like in the mystery novels she loved, and, I guess show the adults everything she knew about the island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019937
>The only thing she did wrong was make a plan to murder
Yeah that's really not something bad at all.
Fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

Surprising - George's response to the question in Ep4. That and his ninja powers. He actually looked and acted like murderer material there.

Unsurprising - Sakutarou is actually mass produced. Seriously....
Scary - Virgilia. Some things weren't meant to smile.
Dlanor....awww, she's all distant and quiWHAT THE FUCK

[Anonymous No.]

>Sakutarou is actually mass produced. Seriously....
When was it confirmed?

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019975
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/Sakutarou,_to_Purgatory_Mountain

"Mass-produced" may not be the proper word, though; we just know that Rosa ended up making more than one.

[Anonymous No.]

I thought that was the remains of sakutaro used to make/remake him right? it said he was in a basket of stuff animals not exactly sakutaros

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019957
I didn't say it wasn't bad, just that she can't be blamed for things like "setting the bomb" or actually killing anyone.

Going by her "ideas", if the games are her written plans, they were unrealistic to an extreme and had a low probability of succeeding anyway. Plus, without actually seeing her kill anyone, we have no idea if she would have been able to pull it off.

I sometimes go through plans of how I'd rob my workplace for fun (we deal with a lot of money) but that doesn't make me a thief.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020144
Do you prepare your plans by buying accomplices, preparing guns and sending letters to your "victims"?

Yasu was fully committed to her plan, don't delude yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6019994
Do you remember that scene in EP4 when Ange is pointing at something nobody else but fantasy characters seem to notice?

Now watch the anime version on said scene.

[Anonymous No.]

People seem to think that what Yasu did was a "bet", but really it wasn't. Unlike the way Kinzo's "roulette" was described, she wasn't trying to go for any specific result. Some results would probably have been more preferable for her than others, but ultimately she just wanted the status quo to change somehow.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020305
Humor me, suppose I don't wanna download the whole anime just to find where that scene is. Description please? In ep 6 Auau implies Sakutaro was mass-produced

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020477
By killing people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020536
By setting up an environment in which people might be killed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020496

Ok, basically, what she sees is a bag, full of Sakutarou's.

Reason why she makes the comment earlier mentioned to AuAu

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020573
It's the same thing.
And she was planning on killing people herself too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020496
>>6020699

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020731
Mentioned already
not sakurato w/o scarf with medal.
why? check out auau's sprite same medal and scarf.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020707
Regardless, she didn't kill anyone or set any bomb.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020776
Let say someone plan to kill you.
He make a huge plan, prepare everything very well.
But just before he could start you find out about it and manage to make him stop.

Was this person innocent?
No, intention of giving death and putting other in dangerous situations are both punishable by law.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6020830
Your example is slightly off. He makes the plan, but with a note that if you figure out the riddle he based the plan on he won't kill you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021128
How nice of him.

[Anonymous No.]

My theory: They all died in a plane crash on their way to the island.

Thus they have been dead the entire time.

[Anonymous No.]

Surprising: EP3-6 never happened in a sort of way (This was before EP7 came out)
Unsurprising: Beato in EP3 (I can't believe yet how people goes about been trolled by this EP)
Scary: EP6 Logic Error scenes
Favorite Theory: Kinzo had homosex with Yasu

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021128
>>6021178
Also, said riddle has been around for two years at this point, in plain view of everyone, and there's no rule against people working together to solve it, and everything needed to solve it is already present, and the people with you are all pretty smart individually (except for that one guy who is always losing money on failed business ventures), so it's almost guaranteed that the riddle will be solved by someone, at some point. Also, you're the last one who would probably be killed due to the circumstances regarding the relationship between you and the person in question, even if you don't really remember things well and don't treat that relationship as a big deal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021264
You forgot that the person who made that plan put a deadline of only a few hours.

[Anonymous No.]

Also, the person planning the killings was planning on dying with anyone remaining at the end if nobody solved the riddle in time, and would also be quite willing to die if the riddle was solved early.

[Anonymous No.]

Basically that person is a self-centered asshole who need to be put down.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021184
>When the seagulls cry, none shall be left alive
>Only time you hear any seagulls cry is at the beginning

[Anonymous No.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz3sOJ7UsRI
> Door to the 6th
I have a feeling I know what'll be playing at some point in Episode 8.

[Anonymous No.]

All the closed door murders can be solved with magnets. Just set up a huge blade somewhere in the room, and use a really strong magnet on the other side of the door to draw it to the magnet, slicing through the neck of the person inside the room at the same time. Thus, you have murdered someone without entering the room to execute the murder, nor using traps.

Besides, you'd think that all the talk about magic is trying to hint at magnets, since the power of magnets is practically indistinguishable from magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021664

Fucking MIRACLES

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021434
Luckily her plans all involve killing the other self-centered assholes first!

[Anonymous No.]

>>6021664
No permanent magnet with such a range exists. You could vaguely hope to do it with an electromagnet half the size of the room, which would get noticed