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5891218 No.5891218 [Reply] [Original]

So, /jp/

Here I was, re-reading EP6, when I stumbled upon this part. At this point, I'm no longer denying the idea Shkanon(trice). I'll admit I'm still trying to come up with other theories, but that's that.

However, taking into account this convo between Ange and Featherine, how do we solve EP6's final closed room if both the cousin's room and the next room over's windows are not to be used in the reasoning?

>> No.5891242

My making it appear as if the windows are not used by using someone who should be in the other room that isn't, and burdening the side that put the seal on the blue truth in the first place to use that blue truth themselves.

>> No.5891262

>>5891242
They simply said no windows in your reasoning, there's nothing about who uses it. All Featherine is saying is that there is a method, which doesn't involve the windows.

In fact, Featherine says that there's no answer to that closed room, but there is a way to save Battler. This makes me think that, whatever that way is, it doesn't involve either the cousin's room or the next room over.

>> No.5891279

>>5891262
"Since no answer exists, then defeat is absolutely certain for whichever player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining"

>> No.5891289

Here's explained how: >>5890219

>> No.5891305

First Ange reaches the conclusion that since they can't use the windows in their reasoning they can't win.
She's wrong about that though. Featherine points out that the person who needs to explain is the person who loses. Not necessarily them.
What Beato did was use the "move that can't be used again" as leverage to force Erika to explain the situation with the windows rather than explain it with the windows herself.

>> No.5891327

>>5891305

Are you implying Beato doesn't know the solution either?

>> No.5891333

Someone left the room opposite of Erika's before she left hers to place the seals and check Battler. Just like Erika tricked his roommates, someone else could've done the same moments before.
Tadaa~

>> No.5891340

>>5891327
I am implying that there is literally no solution when the seals are put on the windows, like Featherine says.

The move available to them isn't a theory that works without windows. It's a move that makes it look like the windows aren't used, so that Erika will try to use that blue and be blocked (only the blue truth regarding it was forbidden) then have Dlanor remove that. However, to use that move, Beato needs to make it look like someone escaped the cousins room, not the next room. Thus she needs to use Shkanon, and she will need to have Kanon escape from Battler's room later by dying. So the room can only be used once.

>> No.5891343

>>5891333
Except the red that confirmed all their locations was made after Erika left.

>> No.5891357

>>5891305
The problem is that we're on the side that has to explain, mate. How do we explain Kanon saving Battler without relying on the windows?

>> No.5891363

>>5891357
You don't. There is no solution. You must force Erika to think it's to her advantage to remove the seal to make the room solvable. And she did remove that.

>> No.5891366

>>5891343

Yes, but that red specifically does not include Kinzo, which is Kanon's real name.

(or the real name of someone else in that room, if you want to make truly amazing theories)

>> No.5891369

>>5891366
Yes and Kanon's real name is George too.

>> No.5891377

>>5891357

Battler found a screwdriver named Kanon and took the hinges off the door

>> No.5891390

>>5891369

the difference being that someone inheriting Kinzo's name is thematically appropriate and almost certainly required to solve EP4

What I don't like is the idea of "Kanon died in the closet because of bullshit, and so doesn't exist in the room". It's stated only a few pages earlier that "I'm not interested in whether people are alive or dead, just state the locations of their bodies, if you will".

I suppose you could say Kanon discarded his name in favour of his true name and so it doesn't exist anymore (at least makes more sense than magic personality death).

>> No.5891409

>>5891390
Required to solve episode 4, but in episode 6, regardless of how "thematically appropriate" it is, it's forbidden. Just like while "people" = "bodies" in those reds, it hasn't always meant that. "Kinzo" may only refer to the dead guy in this case.

>> No.5891412

>>5891409
No, it's not. You just invent this interpretation yourself.

>> No.5891417

>>5891363
But why would Shkanon be a move that can only be used once? If we go by the Shkanon(trice) thing, then this being has been doing his/her shenanigans throughout the games.

>> No.5891420

>>5891412
You invent the Kinzo interpretation for yourself because it's convenient for denying what's already confirmed. Without this interpretation, this red literally means nothing at all. Convenient for you, but I doubt it's true.

>> No.5891428

>>5891417
-It may only be used one time per game, because it's not about personalities switching, but personalities dying
-It exposes the truth
-R07 puts a restriction on himself of only having Shkanontrice be required for a single room

It's hard to explain why a trick could only be used once no matter what trick it is.

>> No.5891430

>>5891390
>I suppose you could say Kanon discarded his name in favour of his true name and so it doesn't exist anymore (at least makes more sense than magic personality death).

It's equally contrived, if you ask me. Why would he suddenly drop his name?

>> No.5891437

>>5891420
Nothing is confirmed yet, and until then it's possible (and highly encouraged by author) to make a different theories. You try to ignore all other facts, because it's convenient for your theory.
You can doubt all you want, it doesn't affect it.
# It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!

>> No.5891442

>>5891428
The problem is that this is the key that is supposed to be able to solve all the closed rooms. If it's restricted to only one room, then it's not that key.

>> No.5891445

I still don't understand why Battler was able to say "everyone else in the other room" if Kanon wasn't there

>> No.5891456

>>5891445

Either because one name refers to both shannon or kanon at once or not depending on how Ryukishi wants to write each scene or:

Kanon is Kinzo and Kinzo was explicitly excluded from "everyone"

>> No.5891457

>>5891390
>"I'm not interested in whether people are alive or dead, just state the locations of their bodies, if you will".
She said that when she checked locations of 1st twilight victims. Kanon isn't one of them.
The trick doesn't have to make real-world sense, just be possible. Otherwise, why would they let someone escape the room? Why would someone go to the guestroom and stay there?

>> No.5891481
File: 444 KB, 991x1100, uminekofordummies2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891481

>>5891218
They never did use the windows reasoning.
The trick for this is that "Kanon disappeared from the room with magic because that room is a perfect closed room"
Erika was just being stupid, she didn't realize that Kanon was never in that room in the first place.

>> No.5891752

>>5891279
>>5891340
You are wrong. The "absolute defeat" and "no answer" Featherine is talking about is being applied to the closed room of the next room over when the use of the window is taken away. Not Battler's closed room.

Beatrice did indeed get away with using the windows, and thus Shkanon, by shifting the burden of explanation to someone who had the power to use the windows. However, Featherine is telling us that there is a solution that does not involve the windows, ie, a non-Shkanon solution, that is forbidden because it would basically mean instant death for Beatrice. There must be another answer, because she tells us another logic error would have been triggered when Dlanor sealed the windows if not.

>> No.5891784

>>5891752
To clarify, everything following the lines, "it may be possible to explain, without using the windows, how one of those five came to Battler's rescue" is exploring THAT possibility - another way to break the closed room of the "next room over" AS OPPOSED TO what Ange brought up prior, "an answer completely unrelated to the next room."

Their conclusion is that it is impossible. Without the windows there is absolutely no way to break the closed room of the next room over.

However, a move to break Battler's closed room still exists without it. Ange hastily comes to the conclusion that without the use of the next room over, they're done for, but Featherine corrects her. After all, if that was the case, and there was no other answer besides the one that used the windows, there should have been another logic error.

My half-serious guess is that this scary, non-Shkanon and non-window solution probably does involve the Kinzo exclusion from the location check.

>> No.5891826

>>5891752
iirc, it might have something to do with Beatrice's true form or identity. Ange had mentioned it was the greatest mystery for this tale, so Beato probably knows how she could use Kanon's alias to escape that closed room and remain unseen by Erika.

>> No.5891895
File: 61 KB, 604x821, cups and coins.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891895

in b4 cups and coins puzzle

>> No.5891941

It was said in EP5 that the detective has an objective point of view. However, Erika didn't have the detective proclamation in EP6, so : using the fact she doesn't have an objective point of view, I'm sure we can find some hole in the red truth that permit Kanon to save Battler.

It may explain too the fact that this closed room has no answer (if we start from the basis that Erika has an objective point of view).

>> No.5891966

>>5891895
>implying that there's a guest room inside of another room

would be a great trick, though...

>> No.5891972

Dear cheese/coins-and-cups/anti-shkannon/whatever-friends. What is your stone-engraved fool-proof explanation for 'Kanon does not exist in this room'?

>> No.5891998

Battler is useless. The logic error was very easy to avoid. Just have Battler kill Erika while she's stunned by the bathroom trap.

>> No.5892006

Whatever it is, the trick is going to be very cheap. R07 even apologized a bit in advance through Battler.

>> No.5892016

>>5891972

Kanon is dead

>> No.5892067

>>5891430

Because he decided he wanted to be with Jessica, and 'furniture' can't do that?

>> No.5892128

>>5891972
Well, I managed to get Jessica inside the room by theorizing that she also owns the name "Battler" (she could even be the original FT victim), and then having her kill Kanon (literally or metaphorically) for whatever reason.

>> No.5892144

>>5892128
Names only refer to the person themselves.
Did you even play the game?
Even if Jessica real name is Battler, in the game Battler will always be the one Battler we know.

>> No.5892169

>>5892144
No, not really.

>> No.5892190

>>5891784
See:
>>5890244
>>5890250

>> No.5892213

>>5892144
That's not how it works. The red says that "all people can only use their own names", and "Battler" is only limited to "the Battler we know" in the context of entering or exiting the room.

If Jessica had been in the room since before Erika even entered it, we don't have a problem.

>> No.5892219

>>5892128

The only way to get her in is to have her be the victim, as there's red that says only kanon entered the room when battler was rescued.

And if that's the case, kanon can set the locks and die of the wounds she inflicted, demonstrating his selfless love for her. It can't be seen without love, after all.

>> No.5892225

>>5891895
Yeah, great. Just genius. Inside the cousins room which we see every episode there is actually a second room that nobody has ever mentioned in 6 episodes.

This isn't "convenient room X in the mansion that nobody has entered before and you can make up crap about". It is a heavily featured room.

>> No.5892230

>>5892213
It's not to be used only in context.
Names only refer to the person themselves is something that is always relevant, that's why he said "I already said that names only refer to the person themselves".

That's exactly how it works

>> No.5892234

>>5892225
...Which is what makes it such a cheap trick, yes.
But it doesn't use the windows, and there's no way Beatrice's solution could have.

>> No.5892237

>>5892230
Then how come there are two Battlers referred to in episode 4?

>> No.5892246

>>5892230
My apologies, I didn't meant to say that it was ALWAYS meant to be used in context, just in that particular instance of "the names of the people who left the room".

In any case, it doesn't really matter how Kanon was killed, only that he died somehow.

>> No.5892251

>>5892230
Also, that's an incorrect translation of the red. It's "all people can only use their own names".

>> No.5892255

>>5892237
There is never 2 Battler mentioned in the gameboard and it's never stated in red.
It's a question of what happen on the gameboard, not what is the real name of such.
Even if Jessica's real name is Battler, she will always be referred as Jessica in red.

>> No.5892266

>>5892237
All people only have one name which can be used to refer to them in the red. The other Battler also only has that one name. What is he to be called, if not Battler? On the other hand, the characters who people claim are the second Battler already have their red name (Kanon has Kanon. Jessica has Jessica). You would never get a red about "Sayo" or "Yoshiya" or "Jessie"

>> No.5892399

>>5892255
>>5892266
There's no such rule. Can you prove that similar wordplay was never used before? In fact, Erika hints that similar trick could exist in ep3 and Battler even confirms.

>> No.5892438

>>5892266
>All people only have one name which can be used to refer to them in the red.
This was never said in red.

>>
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