So is Jessica a bro or is she the one behind fucking everything? She's the only one in ep 6 to call the two trap twins out on their bullshit, before the plot moves along. And then there's the banana phone incident in episode 4. Which is she? Troll? Culprit? Lesbian? or Bro?

File: 319 KB, 640x480, 1279883037.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:06:00 2010 No.5751445 [Reply] [Original]

So is Jessica a bro or is she the one behind fucking everything?

She's the only one in ep 6 to call the two trap twins out on their bullshit, before the plot moves along.

And then there's the banana phone incident in episode 4.

Which is she? Troll? Culprit? Lesbian? or Bro?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:46:00 2010 No.5751599 File: 134 KB, 500x615, 1269915061591.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] lesbian bro whose gonna get trolled hard in the next episode

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:47:00 2010 No.5751602 >Bro I'm so tired of seeing this. /v/'s fratboy mentality is retarded.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:50:02 2010 No.5751613 [DELETED]

>>5751442

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sixpfg wpaaka dqokqoothceimb uu y l opvksa iz

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:52:00 2010 No.5751624 >>5751445 >She's the only one in ep 6 to call the two trap twins out on their bullshit I honestly can't see how this makes her more suspicious than George, the guy who very easily goes to kill people for the sake of his DID maid.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:53:00 2010 No.5751627

I think she's the culprit, with the help of Shannon. Best friends forever plan murder for their own reasons, Battler joins midway after knowing he's actually Kyrie's child. Was it ever stated Battler is the detective in ep1-4? His POV is not that reliable anymore

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:55:00 2010 No.5751630 >>5751627 Battler is not the culprit. Battler never killed anyone. This applies to all previous games.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:56:00 2010 No.5751637 >>5751630 I never said he was the culprit or killed anyone. Doesn't that red truth allow for him to be just an accomplice?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:59:00 2010 No.5751656 >>5751627 Battler was the detective without the same detective hax abilites Erika had, I think so his POV should be reliable, obviously not when he is drunk though (is there any point in Umineko if it isnt?)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 07:59:00 2010 No.5751658 >>5751637 Just him being an accomplice would be the equivalent to Ryukishi disregarding everything until now and punching us in the face.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:01:00 2010 No.5751661 File: 239 KB, 640x480, Untitled-10.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751637 It should, but the whole "detective POV" might nullify that. I considered this before, but gave up on it for that very reason.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:05:00 2010 No.5751681 >>5751661 There is more than one truth.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:06:00 2010 No.5751685 >>5751681 More like there's more than one way to look at the truth.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:07:00 2010 No.5751692 File: 4 KB, 363x360, 1272795715374.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751658 >the equivalent to Ryukishi disregarding everything until now and punching us in the face. you think he won't do something of the sort?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:09:00 2010 No.5751701 >>5751692 Yeah, he won't do that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:12:00 2010 No.5751714 >>5751692 Discarding his story to that extent would be more like the equivalent of punching _himself_ in the face. It won't go that route.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:12:00 2010 No.5751716 File: 58 KB, 350x441, 126903067954.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751692 he wont do that. he might troll and use "cheap tricks", but he wont do anything like that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:13:00 2010 No.5751719 >>5751716 >"cheap tricks" Confirm definition of "cheap tricks".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:14:00 2010 No.5751723 >>5751719 I used ":s because something can seem like a cheap trick to someone while seeming like a wonderful trick to someone else

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:15:00 2010 No.5751728 >>5751716 This is adorable. Are there any others like this?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:15:00 2010 No.5751730 >>5751445 >She's the only one in ep 6 to call the two trap twins out on their bullshit Yeah then later on she pretty much joins in the faggotry and saying "Love is carnivrious~" EP6 really made me sick and tired of the cousin pairings.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:15:00 2010 No.5751731 File: 147 KB, 706x370, murderbylolpersonality2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751719 Cheap Trick #1

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:16:00 2010 No.5751737 I think it's funny that you guys have serious discussions about this shit and spend time making super deep thoughts about it when the plot is completely incoherent and it's obvious the author is making shit up as he goes along.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:16:00 2010 No.5751738 File: 444 KB, 991x1100, uminekofordummies2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751731 Cheap Trick #2 Only made 2 since this two is the most contentious of the closed room murder.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:16:00 2010 No.5751740 >>5751731 How is that a cheap trick?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:17:00 2010 No.5751742 >>5751737 Just discussing is fun, I don't really care if I'm just discussing disjointed bullshit that only makes sense in his mind.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 08:19:00 2010 No.5751746 File: 79 KB, 178x322, erika default.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751731 I'm still not sure how this works in light of the '17 people only' red truth and the 'no factors other than humans' red truth.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:19:00 2010 No.5751748 >>5751738 The whole "Kanon does not exist in the room" could just mean that he commited suicide, you know.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:21:00 2010 No.5751753

>>5751742

Oh okay. Well I think Jessica is whale god from Ranceverse who is actually Kanon dressed as Jessica who is actually Beatrice who was Battler's mother all along. Also the sky green and I'm the queen of England. WOOOO FUN *makes 10,000 threads discussing elaborate theories* *author realizes he made things too obvious and changes things randomly just to drag out another episode*

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:21:00 2010 No.5751756 >>5751746 >not more than 17 people We only have 16.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:22:00 2010 No.5751758 File: 59 KB, 400x320, 1279719414902.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The truth of umineko

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 08:22:00 2010 No.5751759 >>5751756 Except personalities count as people in the red truth, if you're going to argue Shkanon.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:25:00 2010 No.5751766 >>5751759 That's only if the person acknowledges them as different people. Look at Erika's red text.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:25:00 2010 No.5751767 >>5751759 They never did. I am not sure where you are getting this from. That is what the last line of red text in ep6 mean. We only have 16people.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 08:29:00 2010 No.5751778 File: 325 KB, 636x478, 6 PEOPLE are dead.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5751767 Take a look at this image. If you're going to argue Shkanon, personalities must count as people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:30:00 2010 No.5751779 >>5751778 No. That pic only says that 6 people are dead. And that Shkanon is one of those people. Pay more attention to the wording.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:35:00 2010 No.5751801

>>5751778
This doesn't mean shit.
# Kinzo is dead
# Krauss is dead
# Natsuhi is dead
# Hideyoshi is dead
# George is dead
# Rudolf is dead
# Kyrie is dead
# Rosa is dead
# Maria is dead
# Genji is dead
# Shannon is dead
# Kanon is dead
# Gohda is dead
# Kumasawa is dead
# Nanjo is dead
# The 15 people mentioned are dead
# Battler is alive
# Eva is alive
# Jessica is alive

>Hi I am the 18th human on the Island.
TL NOTE for Erika. human = people that I think exist on the Island

>There are 17 people
TL NOTE for B&B. People = # of walking people and not multiple personality.

Red text can be used depending on context unlike gold truth.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:41:00 2010 No.5751822 >>5751801 >Hi I am the 18th human on the Island. >There are 17 people lololol human =! person

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 08:42:00 2010 No.5751824
File: 161 KB, 634x478, the 15 PEOPLE mentioned are dead.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5751779
Okay. I mean, it's obvious that no one else at that point was dead, given that Battler sees them, but okay.

Now, could you take a look at THIS picture?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:46:00 2010 No.5751850 >>5751801 >Red text can be used depending on context unlike gold truth. No, this is bullshit. Gold text is something completely different, see >You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:46:00 2010 No.5751851 >>5751824 >The 15 people MENTIONED You can mention the same person twice.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:48:00 2010 No.5751860

>>5751824
Looks. lets take away Kinzo and we will have 14people
Adding Battler, Jessica and Eva will make it 17people.
We would have a logic error if the GMs think like you.
It is the context of the statement and you are not Erika or the GMs so the RED passed.

For example:
In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 08:51:00 2010 No.5751864
File: 7 KB, 256x202, phone face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5751851
That's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that personalities must count as people in head counts, or else Shkanon doesn't work with the red truth. Kanon and Shannon are counted as two separate people in this count. 15 people are mentioned. They count as people, whether they're personalities or different people entirely or even if you argue that the same person is mentioned twice or more.

>>5751860
Except the red truth of 'there are no more than 18 people on this island' doesn't violate jack shit or contradict ANYTHING if Kinzo is alive or dead, so there would be no logic error.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:53:00 2010 No.5751869

>>5751864
>Looks. lets take away Kinzo and we will have 14people
>Adding Battler, Jessica and Eva will make it 17people.

# Even if you do join us-
# There are 17 people.
17people+Erika =18 != 17people = LOGIC ERROR
Goodbye gameboard, umineko is finished.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 08:58:00 2010 No.5751876 >>5751869 Did you miss the whole 17 != 18 Erika is finished goodbye Erika part?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:03:00 2010 No.5751897

>>5751748
he might also die of another cause, like the prank being even more cruel than one would think and the men didnt know about (genuinely thought their waifus died, went mad, shot Kanon who still managed to save Battler but died shortly after that)

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 09:05:00 2010 No.5751909 >>5751869 The only thing I'm interested in discussing is whether or not personalities count as people. I have presented two instances where they must for Shkanon to work. Whatever you're saying with Erika doesn't change this or explain it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:12:00 2010 No.5751943 >>5751824 Kinzo died a long time ago, so there might be a Shannon/Kanon who died a long time ago, then the other one took his/her role

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:12:00 2010 No.5751945

>>5751909
>whether or not personalities count as people
And that's useless.
So far, every dubious term such as "closed room" or "trap" has had a confirmed definition depending on the context.

The terms "person", "people" or "human" have never been giving a definition in any context, so the only thing left for us is to trust the author.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:14:00 2010 No.5751960 But the subject in question doesn't have two personalities. It has three at least.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:17:00 2010 No.5751984 Which one has the dick.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:18:00 2010 No.5751989

>>5751945
This.
# So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!
>The definition of a closed room is the same as always!
>definition

Notice how we have no definition on human, people, person or whatever and we have Featherinne and Ange talking about what define human.
In the end, we can only trust the red text based on what definition they used when they spout the red.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:21:00 2010 No.5752006

It's interesting to say that in episode 3, Shkanon was on the very first victims. If we take fantasy scenes at face value, the second day is the day that Shkanon becomes human, in other words the day that one personality wins and any other personalities cease to exist.
However in this episode, Shkanon dies before that happens, so one personality didn't manage to overthrow any others, so every personality still existed at the time Shkanon was killed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:23:00 2010 No.5752010 >>5752006 The Black Witch personality won out in the end. Notice how Kanon and Beatrice got killed at the end. I am more interested in what triggered her black heart.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:27:00 2010 No.5752026 >>5752010 Sorry, but the Black Witch personality doesn't exist. They say it very clearly in episode 6, the complete soul is formed by Kanon, Shannon and the piece version of Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:27:00 2010 No.5752030 But multiple personalities don't exist, they are only used as a fabricated legal defense... OH R07 YOU CARD.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:28:00 2010 No.5752036 >>5752026 Sorry I phrased it wrongly. I meant the darkness in their heart that triggered the Black witch. You know "something" that made Rosa/Kasumi/Eva showed their anger or evil side?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:30:00 2010 No.5752047 Did they specify the number of people on the island in ep3?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:33:00 2010 No.5752069
File: 36 KB, 704x396, samefag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Shannon and Kanon are twins or brother and sister
.
They were raised both as Shannon and Kanon, they are both Shannon and Kanon at the same time, just like Shion and Mion.

That's why they need to kill each other in the meta-world, so they can acquire a full identity.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:34:00 2010 No.5752083 >>5752069 Yeah and Beatrice is also a part of their complete soul becau- FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

>>	sage Fri Jul 23 09:37:00 2010 No.5752093 I can't believe people keep talking about this contrived DID mess that only make sense in R07's head.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:37:00 2010 No.5752094 >>5751960 Yea, people just ignore when I point that out as well. If personalities are counted then the Beatrice persona should also be counted and Shkanontrice would count as 3 and not 2.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 09:38:00 2010 No.5752095
File: 299 KB, 635x474, PERPETUAL.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5751945
Well, while word of god can say different later, I don't think it's useless to try and piece out contradictions in the theory right here and now. Regardless of a 'clear' definition, you can at least group personalities and physical bodies in groups A and B using existing red truth. We haven't been given a clear definition about several things with the red truth, but I think it's highly irrational to deny the basis like that. For example, we've never been given a clear definition of 'murder' or 'suicide', what actions qualify as either, etc. But it's a little asinine to use that lack of definition as a basis for an argument.

Not that I don't understand what you're saying, and I'm probably one of the last people on /jp/ who thinks Ryukishi is still worth trusting. But for the sake of arguments here, I'm saying the word 'people' either means 'People who were alive at the start of the game' or 'People and personalities who were alive at or after the start of the game'.

The question is are personalities part of the same group as physical bodies (ie, do they count in the count when 'people' are mentioned) for the purpose of the red truth, or aren't they?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:38:00 2010 No.5752097 >>5752093 It's just that there are people who seem unable to accept it. They are like Battler in ep2, trying to explaing things while denying the basis for their own theories.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 09:39:00 2010 No.5752100
File: 273 KB, 635x475, the rules are sacred.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5751989
So you're saying you can't trust any red unless Beatrice reads you the definition for each word in every sentence she repeats? You might as well make the argument that the red truth isn't even the truth, and that Beatrice and everyone else using it has been lying this whole time. That's about as logical.

People seem to think the red truth is about lying or word play akin to lying. It isn't. It's about misdirection.

We are never given a definition for the word 'locked' either. Does this mean we can start saying that 'locked' might mean something other than what we expect it to, and that all of the closed rooms are just extremely stupid word play? We are never given a definition for the word 'dead', either. Or 'the'. Or 'hidden'. Or 'room'. Or 'truth'!

The first red truth we're given, "When I speak the truth, I will use red.", the word 'truth' was never defined. It's entirely possible for her to have meant something other than 'truth', and therefore every red truth in the game isn't trustworthy. For example, maybe she meant it was the 'truth' in another kakera or game board. Or, you know, even 'red' isn't defined. Maybe she meant a different shade of red. Maybe the red truth we see is more of a crimson, or light burgundy. So it all can't be trusted.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:39:00 2010 No.5752102 Wait, if Battler was alive after the first twilight, doesn't that mean Sorceror Battler actually didn't prove his love to Zepar and Furfur?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:40:00 2010 No.5752107

>>5752069
>Shannon and Kanon are twins or brother and sister
more likely to be both, since they really need to look like each other for shkannon to work out. being the same gender might work out I guess, but I find it more likely that they really are a male and a female (maybe those love demonds are supposed to symbolize this?)

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:40:00 2010 No.5752111

>>5752095
>The question is are personalities part of the same group as physical bodies (ie, do they count in the count when 'people' are mentioned) for the purpose of the red truth, or aren't they?
I think the real question is do personalities count as dead in the same way as normal people?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:40:00 2010 No.5752112

Notice how the personalities are only counted when they are "dead"?

It's simple, normally there is only 1 personality active at a time, normal for a DID.
Therefore they all count as 1 person, while one personality is at the helm the others are in limbo and don't count.

But dying is a permanent state, Shannon and Kanon even though they can't exist at the same time, they both still exist on the island so when one personality die, their death is still counted.

The reason why Beatrice is never counted is simply because she never dies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:41:00 2010 No.5752115 >>5752107 It's stated that they aren't true siblings.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 09:42:00 2010 No.5752126

>>5752069
>Shannon and Kanon are twins or brother and sister

This was my theory behind the killings for a while. They're not the same person, but they look similar enough to dress up as the other. There's even a neat way to explain where Kanon's corpse goes in Episode 2 and 4 this way.

His corpse gets dressed up as Shannon, and she still roams around under this illusion that she's dead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:43:00 2010 No.5752143 >The reason why Beatrice is never counted is simply because she never dies. More like, mentioning the name Beatrice in the red text referring to someone on the game board would be almost a fatal blow.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:44:00 2010 No.5752145 EP6 is vaguely amusing because Battler is a terrible writer. Seriously, his gameboard is a self insert where he is great at everything and people talk about how great he is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:44:00 2010 No.5752146 >>5752112 it honestly sounds a bit too twisted, but I guess it might be true.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:44:00 2010 No.5752150

>>5752100
Let me ask you a question that is debated frequently in the world of Umineko.
'What define a human?"
Pulled up your screenshot folder and look through it.

Murder and dead is pretty self explanatory and yes hidden room and whatever were defined properly by Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:46:00 2010 No.5752157 >>5752143 Beatrice says "I did x" when she talks about the "piece Beatrice" doing something. its not like "she" cant exist as a personality of shkannontrice.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:50:00 2010 No.5752174

>>5752157
>its not like "she" cant exist as a personality of shkannontrice
But she forcefully has to exist as a personality of someone.
Even saying "I handed the letter to Rosa and Maria at X specific time (can't remember)" feels risky because at that time there were some people under Battler's supervision, so we could have disqualified those people of being Beato.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:50:00 2010 No.5752175 Erika is a cheating bitch. Fuck, the whole thing would have been solved ages ago if Battler had been allowed to directly control his piece and use meta-knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:51:00 2010 No.5752180 >>5752175 She is not cheating, Battler is just a shitty GM

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:52:00 2010 No.5752186 >>5752175 Heh, Battler cheated to kill Kinzo in episode 4.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:54:00 2010 No.5752200 So, who do you think is the "real" culprit, everyone? Assuming that Wright will appear in the story, and what Featherine said is true, there's only one culprit and everyone else are underlings.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:58:00 2010 No.5752214 File: 49 KB, 1541x458, uminekofordummies3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 09:58:00 2010 No.5752217 >>5752200 Kinzos will

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:00:00 2010 No.5752228 >>5752214 More like Shkanontrice's will, you dummy.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 10:01:00 2010 No.5752233
File: 439 KB, 641x481, beato faces.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752150
Regardless of whatever defines a 'human' or 'person', if Kanon and Shannon are seperate people or personalities, either way they must still be included in the count of 'people' for the purpose of the red truth. Two times they are included in a specific head count for 'people', regardless of the definition. Unless you're suggesting that 'people' can mean something different every time it's mentioned, to which I will point you back to the definition post that you responded to.

Now let me return the favor and ask you a question.

Do personalities count as people, or don't they? If they do, no problem (yet). If they don't, then Shkanon is already denied by the previously mentioned red truths.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:01:00 2010 No.5752235 >>5752200 George. You know it to be true.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:02:00 2010 No.5752242 >>5752233 See >>5752006 >>5752111 >>5752112

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 10:03:00 2010 No.5752243 >>5752235 Whodunnit: FAT Howdunnit: FAT Whydunnit: FAT

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:04:00 2010 No.5752250 >>5752233 >Do personalities count as people, or don't they? If they do, no problem (yet) Okay, they do. What's the problem?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:05:00 2010 No.5752258 File: 32 KB, 643x485, 1244602590043.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5752243 I was not joking, you see. I truly believe that George is the culprit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:06:00 2010 No.5752264 >>5752233 Person A's people != Person B's people You can't have 2r ed truth contradicting each other. It is illogical.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:07:00 2010 No.5752266 >>5752200 when did she say that? I've been assuming that the culprits aren't knowingly related to each other. They're either fighting over something else or think it's a prank.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:08:00 2010 No.5752273 >>5752233 Shannon and Kanon can't exist at the same time but they can both be counted as dead. It's logical if you think about it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:08:00 2010 No.5752277 >>5752266 In the ???? of ep6. She says she knows the culprit (singular) and the motive.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:11:00 2010 No.5752296 >>5752273 The only way that the murderer can be singular and still performed all these trickery and locked room is by killing them the Erika way. Is it really possible for the fake play to last till the 2nd twilight?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:12:00 2010 No.5752304

>>5752266
The thing I don't like about multiple, confronting culprits is that it would make things very difficult to hide from anyone, like Battler.
It's a bit hard to believe that in every episode the culprits are acting and hindering each other and Battler didn't realize.
inb4 lol Battler incompetent

>>	Flandre Scarlet !Nuw2uNkZFs Fri Jul 23 10:12:00 2010 No.5752308 >>/jp/

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:14:00 2010 No.5752313

>>5752233
>Do personalities count as people, or don't they? If they do, no problem (yet). If they don't, then Shkanon is already denied by the previously mentioned red truths.
they dont. >>5751943 might be true.
or the "they count as people after dying but not before dying"-thingie mentioned earlier in this thread, even though I find it rather weird

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:14:00 2010 No.5752315

You guys should stop with the fake plays nonsense.
It only happen that way in episode 5 and 6 because Lambda and Battler wanted to make the episode as unreliable as possible, and Battler didn't want to kill anyone.

Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth, that's why she lets lots of clues in the form of these murders.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:16:00 2010 No.5752339 Another explanation, Battler and Beato say that there are 17 people. However, at that point time, the demons' trial had already ended, and Shannon had already become a single human, so there are no personalities left.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:16:00 2010 No.5752343

>>5752313
>or the "they count as people after dying but not before dying"-thingie mentioned earlier in this thread, even though I find it rather weird

It's not weird.
Basically Kanon when he "died" was a person, right? Since he was the one controlling the body.
And death is a singular event, a permanent state.
So Kanon died "like a human" and is therefore counted as such in the death list.

The weird definition in all this isn't "person/human", it's "death".

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:22:00 2010 No.5752377

>>5752315

No.

If it was in one game, i'd understand not believing it. But it being in 2 games, two "confession" games gives it the fuck away. At some point in each of the 4 main games, a plan was conceived to fake a murder mystery. This was either used to the advantage of a party(I.e. erika in ep 6) or created a situation in wich someone actually died through murder.(i.e, someone found who they were 100% sure was the "culprit" then killed them only to be told it was a fake play and as such now "real" murders must be covered up.

I refuse to believe this isn't a vital clue.

It would also explain why batteler so easily forgave beato, since she wasn't the ACTUAL culprit, only the "culprit" of the game.

Shkannontrice, shkannon, kannontrice, jessitrice, these are all dressings, not proof of the culprit. Any could be truth but only suceed on taking away from the real culprit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:24:00 2010 No.5752397 >>5752377 Alright, then explain the red text that textually confirm pretty much every first twilight. Explain to me how you could fake having your belly open and filled with candies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:25:00 2010 No.5752406 >>5752377 >But it being in 2 games, two "confession" games gives it the fuck away. Most of the confession in the confession games takes place in fantasy scenes, though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:29:00 2010 No.5752425 >>5752406 ..so what? I dont think you're supposed to disregard everything but red text. I thought EP6 made that pretty clear.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:31:00 2010 No.5752433

>>5752397

Easily.

First game, first twilight; everyone in the main mansion apart from eva, natsuhi, hideoji,genji, kumasawa and kannon died.

The servants go to the family after the arguments have died down with a proposal, since eva and hideoji are not there, neither is natsuhi, they don't get to be a part of the "fake play". So, the idea was to do it in the mansion, so they all go to their starting places and play dead. Someone kills them whilst they play dead and moved them to the shed. Thus the real twilight happens.

2nd game first twilight.

The chapel scene where everyone inside "accepts beatoriche" is them accepting to play along. there is a meal laid out so they can discuss strategies. Rosa declines and decides to retire to play as a spy in the "opposing team" I.e. the one the "detective" will be in. Someone poisons the food they are eating and kills them, splitting their bellies open and putting candy inside thus creating a real 1st twilight, morning after, rosa plays along admirably but comes to the conclusion that this is no act, as you said, you can't joke about having your stomach open and stuffed with candy. so rosa hijinks insue.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:33:00 2010 No.5752449 >>5752433 Quite logical but why Battler? The fake murder mystery seems to be directed at Battler.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:33:00 2010 No.5752450

>>5752425
I never said anything about red text.
And ep6 in fact supports my claim, saying that fantasy scenes are just as important as any other scenes.
What I'm trying to say is that the game boards in 5 and 6 are very confusing and seem to disregard a lot of things from previous game boards.
Hell the game board in ep5 is an enormous "that never happened!".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:36:00 2010 No.5752474 >>5752449 Orchestrated by Shkanontrice or possibly by George after being asked by her.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 10:38:00 2010 No.5752485
File: 81 KB, 470x799, 5529122.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752250
First of all, thank you for responding directly to the question with a simple answer, rather than giving me the runaround like someone else did. I appreciate you at least humoring me.

The problem potentially comes from further red truth about the third game.

'All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!'

Take this to mean 'all five master keys were found, and one each was found in the pockets of the five servants'. Shannon and Kanon, being in the same body, would have two master keys in their pockets. You can argue that 'only one each was found in the pockets of the servants' because 'the culprit took one outside the closed rooms and skillfully returned it to the pocket when discovering the crime scene', as Battler guessed, but this would mean that, if Shannon and Kanon were one person, 'two keys would be found in the pockets of one of the servants'.

'The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!'
'In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!'

The 'linked closed rooms' is short hand to refer to the six closed rooms in episode 3's first twilight. Reading the first one a bit differently, it means 'Alongside each corpse, there was an envelope containing a key to the closed rooms'. Six closed rooms, six corpses, one in each. This would mean six bodies, which obviously contradicts Shkanon.

(cont.)

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:39:00 2010 No.5752487

>>5752474
I am pretty sure it is orchestrated by Kinzo with the 3Furnitures taking centre stage.
But I can't connect this to Battler since they clearly waited for Battler to come back to the Island before starting this "play".

I don't think there is enough connection between Battler and Kinzo for Kinzo to take Battler so seriously.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 10:39:00 2010 No.5752492

>>5752485
And, well, I guess you can make an argument like 'there were only five closed rooms' or 'Virigilia's reconstruction was a fake, she was on the witch's side after all, etc etc' but I think the only reason it was a reconstruction is because the narrative doesn't make sense for Battler to leave the guesthouse. However, 'Detective's authority. The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya Battler. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.', so he got what he could get in the metaworld.

Shannon and Kanon are dead, so they can't move, so it's impossible for Shkanon to move from the parlor to the chapel and be a corpse in two places at once.

Nothing definitive, but it suggests they're seperate people, to me.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:44:00 2010 No.5752525

>>5752485
>>5752492
That closed room circle has been destroyed countless time you know.

Shannon and Kanon died as personality, Beatrice is still alive.
Just so you know, "corpse" in Japanese reads as "body of the dead"

First closed room, they find Shannon who is faking her death with the first keys.
When they go out, Shannon goes outside by the windown, change clothes as Kanon and go to the Chapel.
There wait Rosa and/or Kyrie that had strangely asked to be left behind, if you don't think they are accomplice I suggest you reread episode 2.
Kanon enters the room, play dead, Rosa/Kyrie close the chapel with the key, go to the boiler room, put the key next to Kinzo's body and go outside using the second exit.
Here.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:46:00 2010 No.5752539 >>5752492 >>5752485 Read >>5751731 Their body never dies.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:51:00 2010 No.5752567

>>5752492
> However, 'Detective's authority. The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya Battler. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.', so he got what he could get in the metaworld.
No, no, no, no, that doesn't make any sense.
If that was true, he should have been give a reconstruction of how the chapel in ep2 at the time it was discovered, and then he would have realized that the door was never closed to begin with.
So yeah, nothing guarantees the reconstruction was faithful.
>'All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!'
>'two keys would be found in the pockets of one of the servants'
You can get around this very easily just by saying pocket =! pockets, one key in one pocket, another key in the other.
>'The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!'
>'In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!'
Was it specified in red the exact number of closed rooms? And remember that the boiler room has two doors, so even if there was the individual key for the boiler room, it would be the individual key for only one of those doors.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:51:00 2010 No.5752572

>>5751445
A good way to answer your question OP would be "LOL IDK"

Jessica is in a good spot to be the culprit and accomplice, but what would that actually give her?
Not much, really. She's a bit too down to earth to kill everyone, you need a loony like Shkanontrice to pull off the mass murder.

So I'd say LOL IDK leaning towards her getting massively trolled, but I suppose if R07 feels like justifying Beatrice he's going to have to make SOMEONE else the bad guy.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:52:00 2010 No.5752577

I don't have too much confidence in this whole fake murder mystery plan idea working before Erika came along. The family has definite trust hang-ups just amongst the people who would have been at the first twilight crime scene; additionally, the plan seems incredibly impractical, the kind that would make it hard to convince anyone it was real. Episodes 5 and 6 do prove that the family was not adverse to the idea if it could be present correctly and the people with the correct influence would propose it, but I don't think such a trusted source could be found prior to Erika's appearance (why was she trustworthy again? "just because?").

Unless you believe someone alive in the mansion the evening of the first twilight can garner that kind of influence with three of the four families to do something slightly silly, I see the first twilight cases in episode 5 and 6 as evidence that only the people involved in the first twilight murders could have caused them. In fact, no episode has proven that any of the family is adverse to doing away with the other.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:58:00 2010 No.5752604 >>5752567 >If that was true, he should have been give a reconstruction of how the chapel in ep2 at the time it was discovered Forget that. Actually he should be given a reconstruction for every crime he didn't discover himself.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:58:00 2010 No.5752605

>>5752577

The fake murder play wasn't erikas idea.

The whole reason for the play could be many reasons to make them work together.

1) It's in kinzo's will
2) It is presented solidly that they cannot work together on the epitath BECAUSE they don't trust no one to steal it, so if they can FORCE the remaining family to solve it, everyone gets a share since they arn't really dead.

Sure, they don't trust each other but every party apart from the servants (That we know of) is desperate for money, so they'll do alot of things they wouldn't normally for it.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 10:58:00 2010 No.5752608

>>5752572
>So I'd say LOL IDK leaning towards her getting massively trolled, but I suppose if R07 feels like justifying Beatrice he's going to have to make SOMEONE else the bad guy.
maybe he'll make up a disease again so that nobody has to be blamed for anything~

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:05:00 2010 No.5752640

>>5752539
>>5752525
Read these, because we already had this line of discussion. In fact it was the entire point of the 'do corpses count as people or not' thing I went to great lengths to establish. If Beatrice is a personality, she has to count as a person, which is impossible with the 'people' limit. Jesus H Christ, I don't care if you disagree, but at least acknowledge the fact that I already went through this.

>>5752233
>>5751746
>>5751864
---
>>5752567
Except Virgilia wasn't around then, and there's a different way to explain the closed room of the chapel than assuming the door was open the entire time.

Maria is the one who locks the door with the key after the crime, Beatrice reseals the envelope with wax, Maria returns to the guest house.

And you are missing the point of the 'reconstruction'. It's to give Battler the chance to investigate the crime scenes. He got the chance to investigate the chapel and every other crime scene with the exception of the linked closed rooms. This is true for all games; the closed link rooms are (possibly) the only exception.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:12:00 2010 No.5752683

>>5752640
>she has to count as a person, which is impossible with the 'people' limit. Jesus H Christ, I don't care if you disagree, but at least acknowledge the fact that I already went through this.

We already went through this, the personalities don't count in the head counting.
For the fact that Shannon and Kanon were counted as separate in episode 3, read these.
>>5752343
>>5752112

If you talk about the 18 vs 17 of episode 6, it wasn't about counting Shannon and Kanon as separate or not.
It was about the number of VISITORS vs the number of actual people, it's completely different.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:25:00 2010 No.5752771
File: 19 KB, 150x154, drugged out.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752683
Okay, so they don't count except when they're dead. Gotcha. But then again, the active personality has to count for head counts.

Proof of this from Ep 6; 'At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five.'

So let's straighten this out;

- Red truth has shown that an 'active' personality is counted in head counts.
- Red truth has shown that 'dead' personalities are counted in head counts.

'Beatrice' didn't count in the final head count for Episode 3. She can't have existed as an additional personality without messing up the definition of people and if we're going to assume consistent definitions aren't a fact then I'm going to point you to >>5752100 so you can realize what a dumb argument that is. What does this mean? It means that it's impossible for a third personality to move around Shkanontricesicayoshifat's body with them both being dead.

Well, the entire magical personalities that behave like light switches and don't count except when they do but they don't and also they don't die except when they do and all the red is only as factual as the flimsy reasoning used to get around it -- that's all pretty dumb too. But I'll consider it a theory if the people supporting it can manage a consistent presentation of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:30:00 2010 No.5752789 >>5752485 >'All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!' There's no such red truth. The closer we get to that is 'There are five, one for each servant.'

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:32:00 2010 No.5752804

>>5752771
Wen Shannon is in the "cockpit" of Sayo, she count as Shannon, aka 1 person, the others personalities don't count anymore.

That's why Kanon could avoid the "everyone else".
It's not hard to understand.

And for Beatrice at the end of episode 3, there was no head count.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:34:00 2010 No.5752810 >>5752771 What are you referring to with the final headcount for ep3?

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:40:00 2010 No.5752843
File: 381 KB, 634x471, but there is.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752789
Here. I wasted 5 minutes of skipping to get this for you. Have you read the games, or do you just have a bad memory or something and were looking in the wrong section of the Wikia's red truth page?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:41:19 2010 No.5752853 [DELETED]

>>5751443

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>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:42:00 2010 No.5752857 File: 119 KB, 352x480, 1252680057818.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5752843 >I wasted 5 minutes of skipping to get this for you Oh, thank you. I feel honored.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:43:00 2010 No.5752858 How does a personality die? Does anyone in Rokkenjima have MEoDP?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:43:00 2010 No.5752859 >>5752640 >we already had this line of discussion All shkannon(trice) argument threads are basically: "Argument1!" "Argument23...!" "Argument5, right?" "No, argument17." ... "Argument1!" Welcome to the wonderful world of Umineko.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:43:00 2010 No.5752861
File: 1.01 MB, 1600x1200, 5690611.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752810
>>5752804
You guys... are you serious? I mean, seriously. It's during the most important point in the god damn episode. I even took a screenshot, which is posted here: >>5751824

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:43:00 2010 No.5752869 >>5752771 >Okay, so they don't count except when they're dead. Gotcha. But then again, the active personality has to count for head counts. not the personality but the body/"human" counts

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:46:00 2010 No.5752879 >>5752861 >List a bunch of people >Everyone I listed is dead In other words everyone who wasn't listed could haven been alive or dead at the time it was said. The name Beatrice wasn't listed, so what?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:46:00 2010 No.5752880

>>5752861
That's not a headcount.
A headcount would be counting everyone on the island.
This one only count people who died, it still leaves room for someone to be roaming around.
That's the loophole.

The personalities of Shannon and Kanon died but Beatrice is still alive and kicking.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:47:00 2010 No.5752886 >>5752771 ShKanontrice despite having DID only have one HEAD you know. That's why she only counts as 1 in a HEADcount.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:49:00 2010 No.5752894 >>5752886 But, it's not a headcount. The counter refers to people, not to number of bodies. So, if we're counting personalities as people...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:51:00 2010 No.5752898 >>5752894 we are not counting personalities as people shannon & kanon are different persons, but the same human being.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:51:00 2010 No.5752899
File: 300 KB, 635x474, YOUR BULLSHIT.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5752880
>>5752879
'There are no more than 18 people on this island'
'No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game'
>>5751824
'Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
This is all 18 people!'

You people are either idiots or trolls. Either way, you're very good at what you do.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:54:00 2010 No.5752913

>>5752898
I know dude, but the Red, as far as it seems, counts the number of people, not the number of bodies. For example:

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

If the red counted bodies, we'd be told that 5 humans are dead.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:55:00 2010 No.5752919

>>5752492
>And, well, I guess you can make an argument like 'there were only five closed rooms' or 'Virigilia's reconstruction was a fake, she was on the witch's side after all, etc etc' but I think the only reason it was a reconstruction is because the narrative doesn't make sense for Battler to leave the guesthouse
And why do you think the narrative didn't make sense for Battler to leave the guesthouse?
Isn't Beato writing the tale? She could have arranged a situation where Battler investigated the linked rooms if she wanted.
It has been said a lot of times. Kanon (and Shannon as well) is the weakest point of the witch. The reason why they gave Battler a reconstruction instead of letting him investigate the linked rooms just this one time was because Shkanon was involved, and had to maintain the illusion of Shannon and Kanon being different people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:56:00 2010 No.5752920 File: 153 KB, 367x567, erikachibi.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Can someone tell me WHY people think Shannon and Kannon are one person when Erika clearly sees them together in Episode 5?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:57:00 2010 No.5752927

>>5752894
Counting personalities as people only work with a view that isn't objective, it shouldn't work with the red text.

Shannon and Kanon who can die as separate people despite being the same person should be logical error then.
BUT Beatrice actually left a big loophole, one that isn't apparent at all.

Do you know what it is? Simply the definition of death, or rather the way people die in Umineko.
Beatrice always use INSTANT DEATH for these, and she gave a precise definition of this "instant death"

Her definition of this is basically "sustaining an attack and being immediately unable to act in any ways in the process".
What could it mean for ShKanon?
Simply "the personality of Beatrice attacked Shannon, then the personality of Shannon, or simply this identity, couldn't come out anymore". It fits the definition.
It's that simple.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 11:58:00 2010 No.5752933

>>5752919
Few reasons. First of all, the crime scene was at the mansion during the conference. Second, the victims weren't his parents, and the bodies were discovered before anyone in the guest house (save Nanjo) had a chance to go to the mansion.

It wouldn't make 'narrative' sense for them to call out Battler and everyone in the guest house to take a look at some dead bodies.

But you can look at it your way, too.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 11:59:00 2010 No.5752937
File: 738 KB, 1280x1024, 31321123.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I created a blue truth that doesn't made use of ShKanon:

Kanon entered in the room, trading places with battler, and goes to the bathroom.
He use what Bern and Erika said that was possible:
Cuts his body in small pieces, than...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:00:00 2010 No.5752941 >>5752899 You try hard to avoid looking at obvious shit. It's not a headcount.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:01:00 2010 No.5752947 >>5752937 why would you make a 1280x1024 screenshot of a game that only renders at 640x480

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:03:00 2010 No.5752952

>>5752937

How the hell is this even possible? I figured Bern was just saying that as a joke since there is no way to cut your own body into piece and A) Still be alive to allow all of your body to completely disappear from the room or B) have enough time to do it in without Erika noticing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:03:00 2010 No.5752955 >>5752927 The problem is we also have this (>>5752899) Red. We got told all the people that could have been in the island. There's no room for a Beatrice personality anywhere.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:04:00 2010 No.5752957

>>5752899
You are still missing the point.
Head counts for dead personalities and alive personalities don't work the same way (what we are saying)
So she could say that "all 15 people mentioned are dead", but she couldn't say that only Jessica, Battler and Eva were alive, nor she could say that all 15 people mentioned accounted for the total number of people on the island.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:04:00 2010 No.5752958 >>5752955 No, we aren't told where everyone on the island is. Read this carefully, it's not a headcount at all. It leaves room for Beatrice as a personality of Sayo.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:09:00 2010 No.5752979

>>5752933
>First of all, the crime scene was at the mansion during the conference. Second, the victims weren't his parents, and the bodies were discovered before anyone in the guest house (save Nanjo) had a chance to go to the mansion.
Again, any of those premises could have changed by Beato so Battler would go.
Hell, she could have even forced a situation where he had to go, as long as it wasn't impossible for him.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:11:00 2010 No.5752991 >>5752958 Evatrice lists 15 dead and 3 alive people, and we're told that no more than 18 people exist on the island. Where's the room for Beatrice?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:13:00 2010 No.5752999

>>5752958
I'd agree. However, we are told:

- 'There are no more than 18 people on this island'
- List of 15 people who are dead, and 3 who are alive.
- This is all 18 people!'

Obviously, later we learn that Kinzo is dead, and that lowers the number of people of 17. But, unless I'm interpreting the 3rd Red wrong, we've been told of all the pieces in this game.

In fact, we do not even need Beatrice for this. For all we know, either Kyrie or Rudolph could have killed everyone else (Ronove never confirmed their status as dead), and later they died due to an explosion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:13:00 2010 No.5753001 >>5752991 The room is that Shannon and Kanon only died as personalities.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:15:00 2010 No.5753017

It's not rocket science.
Shannon and Kanon died the DID way, only Beatrice live.
Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 in the dead listing because Beatrice left a loophole as explained there >>5752927
So Beatrice can roam and kill people despite the listing that shouldn't leave room for her.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:18:00 2010 No.5753042

>>5752991
Like we have been said all this time, different "alive" personalities exist at a time, because, obviously only one of them can stay in control at a time.
But, when they die those personalities count as dead in the "dead people" headcount.
At the time Evatrice spoke in red, Sayo only has one personality left (Beato), we are told that Jessica, Battler and Eva are alive, but we are not told that they are the only people alive. On the other hand, the dead personalities join the "dead headcount" as separate people. Of course, this means that the "dead list headcount" doesn't account for the "real number of people on the island", because then it would be "13 dead bodies".
Sayo's body is actually on the "alive people headcount".

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 12:19:00 2010 No.5753055
File: 51 KB, 175x240, when they count.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5753001
- When using the red truth, active personalities must count when totaling a number of people.
Proof: 'At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five.'

- When using the red truth, dead personalities must count when totaling a number of people.
Proof: '6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!'

- If you want to deny that either one doesn't apply, you must show me red truth which supports your claim.

- There are no more than 17 slots available for people or personalities.

Show me how it is possible for Beatrice to exist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:19:00 2010 No.5753056 >>5752999 >- This is all 18 people!' Unfortunately, this last line is never spoken in red.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:20:00 2010 No.5753062 File: 432 KB, 420x544, 1497623.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5753055 the true 18th person.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:20:00 2010 No.5753063 >>5753055 see >>5753042

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:20:00 2010 No.5753064 >>5753055 Are you even reading this thread?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:22:00 2010 No.5753068 >>5753042 I think there's a big flaw in that reasoning. Sure, only one can stay in control at a time, but that doesn't mean the other personality doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:22:00 2010 No.5753071 >>5753068 Episode 6 proves it with the Everyone else red text. When one personality is in control, the other don't count anymore.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:24:00 2010 No.5753077 >>5753071 It either proves it, or disproves it completely.

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:24:00 2010 No.5753079

>>5753042
>At the time Evatrice spoke in red, Sayo only has one personality left (Beato), we are told that Jessica, Battler and Eva are alive, but we are not told that they are the only people alive.
15 dead and 4 alive makes 19 which is more than 18. Lowering the count by one in EP4's tea party had to be separately announced in red, if you were thinking that dead people don't count anyway.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:26:00 2010 No.5753084 >>5753079 Number of dead people =/= number of bodies. To make it simple, there is only 16 bodies on the island. But 1 of these bodies, Sayo, count as 3 different personalities who can each die. Do you finally understand now?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:27:00 2010 No.5753090 >>5753084 The Red has never used bodies, but people, though.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:27:00 2010 No.5753092 >>5753084 Who the hell mentioned anything about bodies?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:28:00 2010 No.5753096 >>5753092 If you didn't, then why the fuck can't you understand stuff we've been repeating for half of the thread?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:31:00 2010 No.5753110 ShKanon looks like Killer 7.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:32:00 2010 No.5753113 File: 279 KB, 435x644, 1279555112821.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:32:00 2010 No.5753114

>>5753096
Oh, I understand perfectly the Shkanontrice deal and how only the active one counts in the alive count, don't worry about that. I just want to know when are bodies ever counted in red.

Seriously, if Beatrice is alive (1) and Shannon (1) and Kanon (1) are dead and they all only have one body, it violates the no more than 18 rule.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:34:00 2010 No.5753130

>>5753114
It doesn't violate the no more than 18 rule.
Number of people =/= number of dead.
Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice only count as one in the number of people, even if they count as 3 in the number of dead.

And the reason is simply because of the definition of death that Beatrice changed to fit her needs, she said her new definition at the beginning of episode 3.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:35:09 2010 No.5753140 [DELETED]

>>5751441
aS PＲeVＩＯUｓｌy_ｍｅｎｔIＯｎeＤ,_ThESe ｍｅｓsSAGＥＳ WＩｌL ＣONｔiNｕｅ uＮＴiL you pErMaｎＥＮtlY ｓtOP ａＴtAcｋＩｎｇ_ＡNｄ_ＦｕCKＩｎＧ_ＷIｔＨ_ｗwＷ.aＮｏNMＯOＯotａＬk.Ｓe (RｅmoVe tＨe COｗＳOUｎＤ), ｒＥＭoＶe_ＡＬｌ_ilｌEgＡＬ cＬOＮＥS_OＦＩＴＡｎd_LIＥｓ_ａBOUＴ Iｔ aｎd dOnａｔｅ_ＡＴ_ＬeaＳｔ A_ＭiLｌｉＯN_ｕSD Ｔo sYsＯp aＳ CｏmpｅNｓＡTＩＯn Ｆｏｒ_tＨｅ MAｓSiVE dａＭAge YＯU ＲeTＡｒds_ＨAvＥ_CＡuSｅＤ.
bptsxwmm ugf sil tunuudl ub vsl c jvj

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:36:00 2010 No.5753142

>>5753130
>And the reason is simply because of the definition of death that Beatrice changed to fit her needs, she said her new definition at the beginning of episode 3.

give up with this nonsense. She didn't redefine death, she defined the term "instant death" to mean someone who died without being able to react.

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:37:00 2010 No.5753146

>>5753130
So you're saying the no more than 18 rules only applies to (living) people, not dead people?

I addressed that already in >>5753079 - if "I will lower that count by one for Kinzo" hadn't been said in red, I'd probably have no defense at this time.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:42:00 2010 No.5753173 >>5753146 >the no more than 18 rules only applies to (living) people, not dead people I just realized that this is pretty much pony theory all over again, just from a different angle

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:43:00 2010 No.5753183

>>5753130
What was the definition again?

Also, what about this Red?

>All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

Also, about the resembling. I remember reading the Japanese line for it before, and it basically said they were all lethally wounded and that the wounds looked like gunshots.

I'll try looking for the Japanese text. I may be remembering wrong, but I remembering getting that impression when I read it, because I also found the word "resembling" suspicious.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:45:00 2010 No.5753196 >>5752920 >>5752920 >>5752920 No answers to this yet?

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 12:46:00 2010 No.5753200 >>5753196 That scene was from Battler's unreliable POV.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:47:00 2010 No.5753208

How is it that hard to understand?
There are 16 on the island (17 if you count Kinzo's corpse)
One of those bodies (Sayo) has 3 personalities, when every personality is alive only one of them is in control, so it only counts as person.
However if those personalities "die" they join the "dead people list", even if they don't leave a corpse behind, however, as long as the original body has at least one personality left, it still counts as a person who is alive.

And don't give me the "Personalities counting as people when they are dead but not when they are alive is complete bullshit!" it has even been foreshadowed since episode 2.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:49:00 2010 No.5753217

>>5753183
The red text about the wound can be read the same way as the english line.
Meaning it can be read "All of them had wounds resembling <gunshot wounds> which became fatal!"
or "All of them had wounds resembling <gunshot wounds which became fatal>!"
That's the word play.

And since you understand japanese, here is the definition of instant death as used by Beatrice:
即死とはつまり、攻撃を受けて即座に行動不能になったという意味だ

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:49:00 2010 No.5753219 >>5753208 how was it foreshadowed?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:51:00 2010 No.5753229 >>5753200 Yes, but is there any reason that his POV is unreliable there? In Episode 2, it's possible because he was drinking and in Episode 4, because of the rain, but what makes it unreliable now?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:51:00 2010 No.5753232 >>5753229 He was no longer the detective.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:52:00 2010 No.5753237 >>5753229 battle was not the detective in EP5, there is no reason to trust his POV there in EP1-4, he might not have the extra hax detective skills Erika has but I think its pretty obvious his POV is the thing to trust in there

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:55:00 2010 No.5753253
File: 11 KB, 209x183, 1247259020606.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5753219
FOOOOOOLS!
Did you even listen to a word of what my wise disciple Maria said?
It doesn't matter if they die! It doesn't matter if they die because in the end the end they go to the Golden Land! Every person killed goes to the Golden Land!
That's right, the Golden Land, that incredible place where everyone is happy without exception!
You know what is best about that wonderful place!? Everyone is equal there! Even furniture, is allowed to go there and be happy and love as they please!
And you know what's even better than that?
After dying and going to the Golden Land, even furniture, who is subhuman... becomes human!

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:55:00 2010 No.5753255

>>5753229
>it's possible because he was drinking

This is complete bullshit, as alcohol doesn't make normal people hallucinate, and we know from Ep4 he could never have been talking to someone pretending to be Kinzo anyway.

At the end of Ep2 his player had resigned, and as such he was no longer the detective. Much better explanation.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 12:56:00 2010 No.5753258
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>>5753229
He's not the detective. Apparently Erika couldn't notice this fact though, despite them both being within arms distance of her several times, and somehow managed to stay blissfully unaware that Kanon and Shannon were the same person, despite meeting them in the parlor, and then in the hallway outside Kinzo's study, and then in Kinzo's study. Her hyper senses can hear through walls, but they're apparently too dull to see two people in the same room not feet away from each other multiple times.

And this fact also bites her in the ass in Episode 6 apparently. For some reason. Even though she knew. Or didn't know. Whichever is most convenient for the Shkanon theory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:57:00 2010 No.5753263 >>5753258 The detective only has a reliable POV when he is the narrator. Erika was never the narrator.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:58:00 2010 No.5753268 File: 321 KB, 1000x619, uminekofordummies4_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I made a chart for you guys.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 12:59:00 2010 No.5753272 >>5753258 We barely watch anything narrated by Erika. The scenes where she was with Shannon and Kanon at the same time were just what Battler was shown after he stepped late into the game.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:00:00 2010 No.5753282 >>5753253 >After dying and going to the Golden Land, even furniture, who is subhuman... becomes human! What about Genji Do we just never see his second personality

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:01:00 2010 No.5753284 >>5753255 If I remember correctly, he met Beato at Oct. 6. So, by that time, the mansion had already gone boom.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:01:00 2010 No.5753287 >>5753282 You mean Ronove who is always helping Beatrice in the game? I wonder what this signify in the real rokkenjima?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:01:00 2010 No.5753289 >>5753282 Genji only says he is a furniture because he is a SAMURAI. It has nothing to do with the mental illness of Sayo.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:02:00 2010 No.5753292 File: 71 KB, 246x206, 1252524678333.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5753282 You... you just didn't forget about Ronove motherfucker!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:03:00 2010 No.5753296 >>5753284 Nope, it's definitely still on October 5th. Face it, Battler gave up and everything he sees after that is unreliable. Hell, Rosa could have shot him and he wouldn't have noticed. >>5753289 Consistency, where is it?

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:03:00 2010 No.5753297

>>5753272
I'm not talking about for our sake. I'm talking about for her sake. That she somehow didn't notice they were the same person, or that one of them was 'missing' despite them all being gathered in the parlor together. It's silly to consider.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:04:00 2010 No.5753303 >>5753287 But Kumasawa/Virgilia isn't furniture. Don't get me wrong, the personality/subhuman thing does make sense, but why is Genji furniture and Kumasawa isn't? >>5753289 This is a much better explanation

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:05:01 2010 No.5753312 >>5753297 Shkanonfags would have you believe that can be explained by Ryukishi simply being a terrible writer. I can't see it. I mean, sure, Higurashi had a WEIRD answer, but it wasn't inconsistent with what we were presented...

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:06:01 2010 No.5753318

>>5753297
Erika didn't "notice" anything because the POV was unreliable due to her not being a narrator.
Why was it unreliable? Because it's a fiction, there is no "what she see from her side", she only see what the writer is showing her which is what we were shown as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:07:01 2010 No.5753330 >>5753303 Read >>5752487 This might be one of the possible reason. Those 3 have the one winged symbol and they are pretty important. There must be a reason for it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:07:01 2010 No.5753335 >>5753318 So Ep5 never had any reliable perspective from anywhere. Again, CONSISTENCY WHERE IS IT. Besides, this once again means that 'I can make pretty much any theory I want'. Please. You don't want to do that to Umineko.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:07:01 2010 No.5753336
File: 564 KB, 640x1440, result.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

So fags, by your shitty theory, Shannon and Kanon personalities were also created "for Father's sake" by his 'sin', right? It seems this slut wanted some foursome with Battler and simple Beatrice personality wasn't enough. But we know that Shannon was working there for more than 10 years. And his 'sin' wasn't earlier than 6 years ago. There was never any Sayo servant, who can create different personalities at whim and make them hired as a new servants.
Ah, and while you're at it. Explain how Kinzo allowed some underage boy without any special qualities to wear One-Winged Eagle. Kinzorape could explain Shannon somehow, but I doubt he'll go for Kanon. All other servants aren't allowed that, even -on ones.
Also why Kanon, Shannon and Genji call themselves furniture, created by Kinzo.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:08:01 2010 No.5753342 >>5753318 Except that there are many actions of Erika's where the 'observer' isn't her and yet she still can have Dlanor use the Decalogue. Her viewpoint =/= our viewpoint.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:08:01 2010 No.5753343

>>5753318
To make the thing clearer.
Umineko is done this way:
2 stories are written in the same time.
One is a fantasy, the other is a mystery.
The GM can choose to show the tale he want at the time he want.

Only thing he has to do is to give the 2 tales the same consistent "truth" and to always only show the mystery tale to the detective when he is the POV.

Erika wasn't a POV, therefore she was stuck in the fantasy tale.
That's all.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:08:01 2010 No.5753344

>>5753173
You can't escape pony theory. You can't outrun it. It has two more legs than you do!

>>5753146
Unless someone is just roleplaying as "Beatrice" there are 18 personalities, including Beatrice and excluding Kinzo. That number never changes, but can be counted differently by assuming the only personality that counts at any given moment is the one controlling the body (how do you count sleeping people?). At least 14 bodies have singular personalities (14 personalities); that's excluding Shannon Kanon Jessica and a hypothetical Beatrice. If Jessica somehow has the time to account for 1 body and 4 personalities that makes the numbers 15/18. If Jessica is unique and the rest inhabit the same body, 16/18.

"In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!"

There are three ways to resolve this: the first is the dominant personality theory, the second is that Beatrice is not counting herself as a human to get around other Red Truth, and we've seen that trick used before, and the third is that "Beatrice" just someone who takes on the costume and name and uses parlor tricks.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:09:01 2010 No.5753345

>>5753312
>Shkanonfags would have you believe that can be explained by Ryukishi simply being a terrible writer.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
>>5753303
I'd say that's because Virgilia isn't a "real" personality. It's more like a symbolism, just like Virgilia was a mother/mentor to the witch Beatrice, Kumasawa is the mother/mentor to the piece Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:11:01 2010 No.5753364 >>5753345 >Stop putting words in my mouth. Hey man, I hear shit like this from you people constantly. >>5753343 Yeah, this almost makes sense but not quite.

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:14:01 2010 No.5753382

>>5753330
I agree that the lack of the wing is the cause for her not being furniture, but how does that explain the point made in >>5753253 ? Only Kinzo's personal servants can have DID? Not to mention she used to have it but not anymore. Maybe Kinzo found out she was faking her second personality.

>>5753345
>I'd say that's because Virgilia isn't a "real" personality.
What, and Ronove is?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:14:01 2010 No.5753385 >>5753364 >Hey man, I hear shit like this from you people constantly Oddly enough, I hear that from people who hate that theory to death even though they accept it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:16:01 2010 No.5753393 >>5753382 >even furniture, who is subhuman Maybe Genji is a furniture but not subhuman? I don't know. Metaphor/symbolism has meaning. We just have to wait till ep7 for confirmation. Everything now is just speculation.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:16:01 2010 No.5753394

>>5753343
But that's looking it from the Meta world. Erika still has her own POV in the gameboard, as shown in EP6. By the time she was in the parlour in EP5, she should have seen either Shannon or Kanon. She also knows of the Red Text that has been used. If she didn't know it during that scene, she should have heard about it later. She should know that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, if that's the case.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:16:01 2010 No.5753396 >>5753382 Genji doesn't have DID. Just because he says that he is furniture, it doesn't mean he has DID. He is an old japanese man who has served the same master for all his life, that's all.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:16:01 2010 No.5753401 >>5753382 >What, and Ronove is? Kumasawa and Virgilia are much more alike than Genji and Ronove.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:18:01 2010 No.5753412 >>5753401 And GAAP(Rose) = Nanjo for hiding corpses?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:18:01 2010 No.5753415

>>5753394
No, you are reading it the wrong way.
Think of it as 2 parallel universe, the GM can put you in one or the other universe when he want.
The detective always has to be in the mystery universe when he narrates though.
But Erika never did so she was stuck in the fantasy universe and did her investigation there.

That's why she could do all these crazy shits.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:19:01 2010 No.5753425
File: 83 KB, 640x422, 1279280834837.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I really don't want to spoil Ep 7 for myself before it gets translated, but I am seriously considering it just so one of these possibilities can be stomped out.

And then it will turn out that Ep 7 doesn't have anything pertaining to Shkanon anyway, in the ultimate troll.

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:20:01 2010 No.5753430

>>5753396
>Just because he says that he is furniture, it doesn't mean he has DID.
My point exactly. And just because Shkanon has DID, it doesn't mean they're furniture. Dat consistency. I seriously doubt "being furniture" has any more than one definition.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:21:01 2010 No.5753440 >>5753401 Proving what? That while Ronove has a magical counterpart for real, she's faking it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:22:01 2010 No.5753442 >>5753415 So you're saying that her "hax" proclamation is actually absolutely useless, and she can't confirm even the slightest shit by her eyes. Yeah, nice argument.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:22:01 2010 No.5753444 >>5753430 Perhaps you could see it as Genji having to maintain the illusion of Kinzo... But the problem is that he isn't the only one doing that.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:22:01 2010 No.5753445

>>5753430
It's a question of CONTEXT.
You can understand that an old japanese man who has served the same master for all his life can consider himself as only an "object" for his master.
The whole bushido shit, samurai and all, for someone like Genji it seems normal.

Now what about a 16 years old boy and girl?
Why the fuck do they consider themselves subhuman?

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:22:01 2010 No.5753446 >>5753440 Women always fake it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:23:01 2010 No.5753450 >>5753415 Where was anything of this was ever said in the game? In fact, EP6 tells us the Detective has its own POV even if he doesn't have the focus. This is how Erika got away with the murders in EP6.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:23:01 2010 No.5753455 >>5753442 I'm saying what was stated in the game. The detective only has a reliable POV when he narrates. Nothing says that he has a reliable POV when he doesn't narrate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:24:01 2010 No.5753456 >>5753445 Furthermore, since Sayo views Genji as an adoptive father, you could say that she inherited the term "furniture" from him.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:24:01 2010 No.5753460 >>5753450 She got away with the murder by a using a hax move. Not because she had her own POV. It's exactly like a D&D game.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:24:01 2010 No.5753462 >>5753445 >Why the fuck do they consider themselves subhuman? Because they were raised to be used in an arcane ceremony that will end in their deaths?

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:25:01 2010 No.5753466

>>5753445
>It's a question of CONTEXT.
One term, and you're giving it two completely different meanings to fit your needs.

Let's throw in the Stakes, the Siestas, Sakutarou and so forth. All called furniture as well. You're saying that while all the other furniture just consider themselves objects to their master, with Shkanon it specifically means DID?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:25:01 2010 No.5753470 >>5753445 >Now what about a 16 years old boy and girl? Actually hasn't ep6 confirmed that Beato is 19 years old?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:25:01 2010 No.5753471

>>5753442
If she is all seeing, how could she not noticed people playing dead in ep5 and then not noticing how Kanon rescued Battler from the room in the short time she was at the bath.

R07 has no consistency with his writing. We called this plotholes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:26:01 2010 No.5753473 >>5753460 >It's exactly like a D&D game. This, to me, is complete bullshit that you're pulling straight out of your rear end. Where are you even getting this from?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:26:01 2010 No.5753478 >>5753455 >The detective only has a reliable POV when he narrates. Please, give me a screen or an exact quote where this is stated.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:27:01 2010 No.5753481 >>5753471 >R07 has no consistency with his writing. And I'm saying that because Higurashi is internally consistent with itself, Umineko should be as well.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:27:01 2010 No.5753486

>>5753460
It was a hax move BECAUSE she had her POV. If Battler could have put her in a "fantasy" universe as you put it, she'd have been in a world where they were actually dead, or something like that.

No offence, but I think you're making up things to fix your needs.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:28:01 2010 No.5753488 >>5753471 She tells you herself in Ep 6 that she didn't notice in Ep 5 because she didn't examine the corpses personally. She doesn't have the detective proclamation in Ep 6, which means her viewpoint is easily fucked with.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:28:01 2010 No.5753491 >>5753473 Don't tell me you don't see all the obvious D&D parallel in Umineko.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:28:01 2010 No.5753496 >>5753471 Because "corpses" were covered by blankets and she didn't inspect them at all.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:29:01 2010 No.5753498 >>5753491 Not really, no. D&D doesn't have false viewpoints.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:29:01 2010 No.5753499 >>5753486 It was a hax move because she was allowed a RETROACTIVE move. How the fuck do this work with a mystery version for you? She has a time machine? Do you even know what retroactive mean?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:29:01 2010 No.5753501 >>5753466 What all the furniture have in common is they are "beings with personality" who have some sort of vessel.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:30:01 2010 No.5753505 >>5753499 All this means is that everything Erika does is total bullshit, much like her existence.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:30:01 2010 No.5753509 >>5753488 >She didn't notice Shannon and Kanon samefagging in Ep 5 because she didn't examine them personally. Problem?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:31:01 2010 No.5753510 >>5753505 So let's go your way. How an existence like Erika that is bullshit could have a reliable POV on the island?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:32:01 2010 No.5753519 People are still trying to use episode 5 to deny ShKanon? I thought you all had given up, even R07 said episode 5 was a huge trap.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:33:01 2010 No.5753523
File: 222 KB, 500x445, erika zoom.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5753509
Being covered by blankets is quite different than a person standing 3 feet away and not hiding behind anything or anyone while the other is brushing shoulders with you. So yeah. Big problem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:33:01 2010 No.5753529 Since Erika was concentrating in fucking Natsuhi almost from the very beginning and had no real interest in finding the truth, you could say that she just forgot about anything unrelated to that. Because Erika is more of a prosecutor than a detective.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:34:01 2010 No.5753531 File: 379 KB, 640x480, 20100711 224115.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5753509 Yeah, problem.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:35:01 2010 No.5753535

>>5753478
I think it's more implicit. If you're going to go out of your way to say that the only person that can be trusted is the detective, why would a non-detective perspective garner so much trust? The only person allowed this kind of leeway is The Watson who is always on the side of the detective and is never a culprit or accomplice while still being a reader mouthpiece.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:35:01 2010 No.5753536 So because people can't deny ShKanon in the other episodes, they now focus on episode 5 the one episode that even the author admitted to be full of poison and unreliable. Awesome, must be nice being stuck so deeply in denial.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:36:01 2010 No.5753541

>>5753523
>a person standing 3 feet away and not hiding behind anything or anyone while the other is brushing shoulders with you
Again this is what Battler is shown.
Even with the red text, it's possible that Sayo was really hiding from Erika in the parlor at the time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:36:01 2010 No.5753547 >>5753519 It is said that Ep5 has no LOVE. I wonder what that mean. ・紗代→しゃ　よ→SYAYO→愛（Ｉ）がないと視えない→SYAYO＋I→YOSIYA

None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:36:01 2010 No.5753549
File: 79 KB, 400x400, 1262112764230.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5753501
All right, we're getting closer. I have to bring up Kumasawa again though.

She used to have the wing (which may or may not indicate she was furniture, I don't remember if it was confirmed) but not anymore. Virgilia used to be Beatrice but not anymore. Probably not coincidence.

In any case, Virgilia is quite clearly a "being with personality" and a vessel, but isn't furniture.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:38:01 2010 No.5753565 >>5753499 Yeah, but that's not my point. Even if there was a retroactive move, there's nothing on it about having her in a fantasy world when she's not POV.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:40:01 2010 No.5753574 >>5753547 That means bullshit and you know it. Or let's say that Kanon didn't want to reveal his true name, so he made the fake one at the spot.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:42:01 2010 No.5753587

>>5753549
>She used to have the wing (which may or may not indicate she was furniture, I don't remember if it was confirmed) but not anymore
That's right, I don't think that No wing =! No furniture, after all piece Beato is furniture as well (I don't really know if those things on her dress count as wings).
>In any case, Virgilia is quite clearly a "being with personality" and a vessel, but isn't furniture.
I think that at some point Virgilia herself said that she had to obey the orders of Beato (in fact she has been doing so since she appeared). Of course, that doesn't directly tell us that she is furniture, but still.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Fri Jul 23 13:44:01 2010 No.5753597
File: 363 KB, 654x513, well it was worth a try.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5753536
Devil's proof. I can't prove a negative fact is true. I'm not a witch, nor am I the writer. I can present a much more logical (in my opinion, of course) theory that doesn't make use of the assumption that the red = lies.

Also, you can't disprove said theory, were I to present it. So I guess we're even, mister troll.

>>5753541
That argument didn't work in Kinzo's god damn study, how do you think it would work in the parlor, which is much less elaborate?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:45:01 2010 No.5753602 >>5753547 Hahahaha... Oh wow!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:48:01 2010 No.5753628 So, does that mean that all the episodes with Erika are moot, since her existance has been denied? How do Shkanonfriends resolve the Kanon saves Battler closed room, providing Shannon was blocked in the other room?

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:49:01 2010 No.5753631 >>5753536 Personally I'm just arguing for the sport, at least until EP7 comes out. The easy way out is pretty boring.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:50:01 2010 No.5753634 >>5753628 Read >>5751738 How are people still not getting this?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:50:01 2010 No.5753638

>>5753628
Shannon switched into Kanon, who went out through the window, then changed places with Battler, and then switched into Shannon.

It's complete rubbish, but it works with the Red and Knox, and you can make up excuses, like Kanon love the love duel or something like that for the constant personality switching.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:51:01 2010 No.5753642 >>5753634 I just finished EP6 and hid umineko threads on sight before, sorry.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:53:01 2010 No.5753655

>>5753597
>That argument didn't work in Kinzo's god damn study, how do you think it would work in the parlor, which is much less elaborate?
Devil's proof.
No really, like I said Natsuhi was Erika's target from the beginning (because of her master's will, or her own will or whatever) so she just didn't bother with anything not related to her.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:53:01 2010 No.5753658 >>5753642 Wait, you mean you didnt even realize about this after Tea Party and ????? Ep6 isnt even hard, its a confession.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:56:01 2010 No.5753667 >>5753634 Everybody gets it, doesn't mean they can't think up alternate solutions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:56:01 2010 No.5753672 >>5753658 Too bad most people don't get it right.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 13:56:01 2010 No.5753673 >>5753667 oh disregard that I wasn't paying attention

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:57:01 2010 No.5753675 >>5753658 I'm the kind of Reader R07 hates. I give up easily when there's confusing bullshit where you're supposed to figure out the sense of it. The revelation that Kinzo was dead all along, while EP1 clearly used sprites of him, made me rage a lot.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 13:57:01 2010 No.5753679 >>5753667 I thought of two alternate solutions. Sadly, both of them pretty much don't have any foreshadowing at all.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:01:01 2010 No.5753694 >>5753679 What are these? Because mine has a lot actually. >>5753675 You can become a good shkannonfag.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:07:01 2010 No.5753728

>>5753694
1 Beato says in red that everyone can only use their own names. However (I even checked the original Japanese) she uses a word that can only be used for first names, and not surnames, and in Shannon's room there are two people who always use their surname instead of their first name (Kumasawa and Nanjo). If Kanon's real surname were Kumasawa or Nanjo, the closed room is solved.
2 Erika asked Battler to remove Kinzo from the red text regarding these two closed rooms. If Kanon had inherited Kinzo's name as Battler proposed in ep4, Kanon could be free from both rooms.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:17:01 2010 No.5753789 >>5753728 I'm now collecting clues for the 2nd solution in 1-4 and there are many. You just need LOVE to see them from both magical and real viewpoints. It also opens several interesting possibilities.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:18:01 2010 No.5753797 >>5753789 >and there are many Such as?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:21:01 2010 No.5753817 >>5753797 Maybe I'll post it in a few days, if I'll not be too lazy to write.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:21:01 2010 No.5753820 >It also opens several interesting possibilities. All of which will be used to both justify and deny Shkanon(trice?) once you present them. Such is the fate of all Umineko clues as seen through the eyes of its readers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:27:01 2010 No.5753862 >>5753820 >Such is the fate of all Umineko clues as seen through the eyes of its readers Holy shit, sorry but ep6 is just full with Shkanontrice symbolism. How am I supposed to interpret this? >>5751650

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:29:01 2010 No.5753872 File: 120 KB, 352x480, 1252684020227.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5753817 Can you at least give a hint to a hint?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:29:19 2010 No.5753871 [DELETED]

>>5751443
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nnp k nxvz rfxrid cp p am z j zdltai oqmh f

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:30:01 2010 No.5753877 >>5753862 It's fantasy, EP6 doesn't have an impartial detective POV. Sure, the symbolism is there, but whether it translates into DID is another matter entirely.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:32:01 2010 No.5753888 >>5753877 Oho? Wasn't this episode almost exclusively dedicated to telling us that fantasy scenes were just as important as any other scene?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:32:01 2010 No.5753889 This thread explained the whole "personality can die" and how it works pretty well, I'm pleased.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:35:01 2010 No.5753916 >>5753889 Thank you, but that's only my interpretation of it. Although I'm glad that there are other people who reached the same conclusion as me. At least now I know that this bullshit doesn't only work in my mind.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:37:01 2010 No.5753925 >>5753872 Try to think how such thing could be possible in the first place. It's unlikely that he'll inherit it out of the blue, right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:37:01 2010 No.5753927 >>5753916 it does make a whole lot of sense and it's along the lines of what i was thinking. the 'everyone' red is clearly important but i wasn't sure how and that trick had been played in EP3 too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:39:01 2010 No.5753940 >>5753925 Well, of course at the very least he would have to do something to prove that he's worthy to inherit the headship.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:40:01 2010 No.5753947

>>5753862
That they have incomplete souls.
It says nothing about personalities (people) or corpses (bodies). It does mention only one "piece," which is highly suspect, but a piece can be moved by people other than the person it represents. If there's only one piece used for Shannon and Kanon, that does not have to mean they actually share the same body.

I know, it's stupid, but I'm trying to use Umineko logic here, where people can have mystical DID bullshit and witches and furniture can conceal pieces and pieces can conceal witches and furniture. To its credit, I do think it would imply some form of Shkanon duality though; I think it's more like one person living double lives so thoroughly that it may as well be counted as two separate people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:43:01 2010 No.5753964 >I think it's more like one person living double lives so thoroughly that it may as well be counted as two separate people. But that's what Shkanon is all about...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:45:01 2010 No.5753984 >>5753964 The difference is that in his theory they aren't "personalities" in the same body, but actually the same personality with two different way of behaving.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:46:01 2010 No.5753988

>>5753947
I had actually come up with quite a good and slightly realistic theory with Shannon dying slightly before 1986's conference and Kanon taking her place and inheriting Shannon's name.

It worked amazingly well, until EP4, where we were told Kanon was the 1st one to die in Kyrie's group, so I couldn't figure out who could have killed the rest.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:46:01 2010 No.5753989 >>5753984 That's what DID is. It's just a game of pretend that someone take too seriously.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:47:01 2010 No.5753992 >>5753984 So, you mean, a person pretending be either a boy or a girl?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:48:01 2010 No.5754006 File: 99 KB, 457x480, 1254681004681.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5753988 >so I couldn't figure out who could have killed the rest. George, the true culprit, obviously.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:49:01 2010 No.5754007 Rather than multiple personalities, what if Kanon does exist as a seperate person but is not on the island the day of the conferance?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:49:01 2010 No.5754008 >>5753989 Not really, if I pretend being someone else, I'm not suffering of DID. I'm just pretending.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:49:01 2010 No.5754013 >>5753984 Hey now, all that about DID are jokes, we don't exactly know how it works either.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:50:01 2010 No.5754017 >>5754006 Hmm... that sounds interesting, but then again, Battler saw him dead, with a hole in his head. How do you get around that?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:51:01 2010 No.5754029 >>5754017 As long as the culprit and accomplice(s) disagree after a while, any party can end up killing the other.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:53:01 2010 No.5754050 >>5754029 I know, but all of them died, in different places, well, with the exception of Shannon and Nanjo.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 14:54:01 2010 No.5754056 File: 873 KB, 1668x1600, erikavector.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] There hasn't been an oc thread since the last one died so I'm posting this here. It's not too polished but frankly I'm just tired of seeing it anymore

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:57:01 2010 No.5754080

>>5753989
I was going to write up a support for my position again but then I read this. You obviously don't believe that any person who has any form of dissociative identity disorder has some kind of real mental problem that causes them to suffer ambiguity about their modes of behavior and self-identification? Pretend is willful; DID can be terribly compulsory for then individual body that has it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 14:59:01 2010 No.5754090 >>5754056 I like it

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 15:02:01 2010 No.5754115 File: 1.77 MB, 3128x3000, erikavector.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754056 Fuck that, here's a hueger version with a small bit or two fixed that I missed There are still probably errors but I'm done for real now

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:02:01 2010 No.5754119

The problem with pretending is that wouldn't count as a personality. For DID it works, for obvious reasons. It'd also work if we'd talk about how people change throughout time. Like, if I had to use an example, how Shirou and Archer are different people, even though they are the same person. Moreover, chances are Shirou won't be anything like Archer by the time he reaches Archer age.

Merely pretending wouldn't create a personality, if you ask me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:04:01 2010 No.5754139 >>5754119 >Merely pretending wouldn't create a personality, if you ask me. Perhaps if everyone acknowledges it.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 15:05:01 2010 No.5754147 File: 589 KB, 1024x1328, 1259592960458.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754119 >Merely pretending wouldn't create a personality, if you ask me. Who knows.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:05:01 2010 No.5754153 I just feel that the epitaph will turn out to be a huge hint somehow, fuck.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:06:01 2010 No.5754169 >>5754115 Just upload vector file somewhere.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:07:01 2010 No.5754173 >>5754153 Featherine discovered the culprit and their motive withouth actually solving the epitaph, so fuck that shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:08:01 2010 No.5754185 >>5753628 >So, does that mean that all the episodes with Erika are moot, since her existance has been denied? Multiples truths can exist on Rokkenjima

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:09:01 2010 No.5754198 File: 34 KB, 184x184, 1252480511211.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754147 Shut up... That was no pretending!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:10:01 2010 No.5754205 >>5754139 Not really, perhaps if you put it in subjective terms, but objectively speaking, no other personality exists. In DID and in changing through time a new personality does hold true. However, pretending is just that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:11:01 2010 No.5754217 >>5754173 Did she say she hasn't solved the Epitaph?

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 15:11:01 2010 No.5754218 File: 112 KB, 640x691, sakutaro_usb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754198 Yeah it was a splendid display of magic

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:12:01 2010 No.5754222

>>5754119
Yeah, that's the part of the theory that doesn't work as stated. I think. What Umineko considers as a "person" is like Schrödinger's cat for me. Every time I look in the box, I have a different opinion on what I'm saying.

I suspect that makes me a really bad person to be designing theories about it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:13:01 2010 No.5754231 >>5754217 Yes.

>>	None !OSakaQCVow Fri Jul 23 15:14:01 2010 No.5754243 >>5754217 She said that she had solved everything she could and for the rest she's have to visit Rokkenjima. So she had essentially solved it.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:14:01 2010 No.5754247

Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of modern psychology should be EXTREMELY upset by this whole DID bullshit.

DID probably doesn't exist (even looking the damn disorder up on Wikipedia should tell you as much), and using it as a plot device in a MYSTERY of all genres is a terrible, terrible idea. It's bad writing, and for all Ryukishi's Tolkien-esque waffling he honestly isn't that terrible a writer.

This is why I believe that even if Shkanon(trice) is true, it probably isn't true in the sense that 'Shannon is a crazy delusional stalker than murdered everyone'.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:15:01 2010 No.5754251
File: 103 KB, 259x325, 1249309841058.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5754218
That's right... it was magic.
Sayo just borrowed the power of magic to summon some friends because she was lonely on the island...
We solved Umineko... we can go home now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:16:01 2010 No.5754267 >>5754243 She explicitely said that she couldn't understand the last part of the epitaph.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:18:01 2010 No.5754291

>>5754222
I don't think so. I mean, even if Shkanon(trice) has much weight on it, I don't have to believe it until the end, and that's what I plan on doing, because I truly expect something better from R07.

If Shkanon(trice) is true, then too bad. I can move on, and forget about this game. Otherwise, I don't know, I'll just probably troll /jp/ for a while, and then forget about it too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:19:01 2010 No.5754302 File: 430 KB, 640x480, 20100713 233026.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754267 But she has a theory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:20:01 2010 No.5754307 >>5754267 But then that means she has the key, and most of the Epitaph. What she probably doesn't mean is the result, but you can effectively say she has solved the Epitaph.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:21:01 2010 No.5754325 >>5754302 >I should be able to resolve that part as well Which mean we don't have to resolve it to find the culprit... I think.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:21:01 2010 No.5754327 Are we autosaging? I think we're autosaging. New thread?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:23:01 2010 No.5754346 >>5754325 No, but... hmm, this might sound bad, but has anyone else ever read The Da Vinci Code? Remember how the riddle in that book had two solutions, both equally valid? I believe this epitaph might be the same way.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:23:01 2010 No.5754349 >>5754247 But Eva crated another personality inside her and no one said anything And Natsuhi had an imaginary friend And so did Maria and Ange.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:23:01 2010 No.5754350 >>5754247 My opinion exactly, but I guess there will always be some people who like the DID thing and none of the mystery rules around say anything about it. Well, most of those rules are really old, but all the same, no one has said anything about it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:25:01 2010 No.5754378 >>5754325 Well, epitaph is a necessary requirement for becoming Beatrice, so it probably can be a big hint.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:26:01 2010 No.5754388 >>5754378 But we already know who Beatrice is... don't we?

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:26:01 2010 No.5754390

>>5754349
Natsuhi was a deluded woman, nothing wrong about it.
Maria and Eva had imaginary friends. There's nothing wrong about it either.

DID is a whole different issue. Even so, I won't vouch on the whole DID thing. I'm sure there must be another and more realistic explanation.

I'll, be buying EP7 on the Comiket. So, I cannot wait anymore to see what I get.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:27:01 2010 No.5754396 File: 99 KB, 247x248, 1230254876255.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754390 >Natsuhi was a deluded woman And what a deluded woman!

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:27:01 2010 No.5754398

>>5754349

Maria, Natsuhi, and Ange are all clearly delusional and may have some variant of schizophrenia. It's implied that Maria and Ange became that way as a result of abuse, and Natsuhi might have snapped due to the stress of Kinzo's death. It happens.

With Evatrice, she's described a lot more like a metaphor and may be sort of a coping tactic on Eva's part... I don't think she seriously believes a little girl lives inside her head.

These cases are both a lot different than DID.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:27:01 2010 No.5754399 >>5754388 Not really, you have many people vouching for Shannon. There's some people vouching for Jessica. And there's those who still believe she may be her own person.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:29:01 2010 No.5754416 By the way, I seem to recall a line of Erika's in Ep5 that should deny Shkanon outright if you believe she has an objective viewpoint at all. I'll post it after I find it on a replay.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:30:01 2010 No.5754425 >>5754399 >There's some people vouching for Jessica My memory fails me a bit here, but wasn't Jessica with Battler at the time Maria received the letter from Beato in ep2? (Beato confirmed in red: The letter I handed to Maria...)

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:32:01 2010 No.5754447

>>5754425
Yeah, and she was also with him in EP1 during that scene. However, some people argue the Beatrice Maria saw at that point wasn't the real thing, but one person posing. After all, we saw her taking Evatrice as Beatrice in EP3. So, that may work.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:35:01 2010 No.5754474 File: 36 KB, 342x512, Portrait-white-Pony-Horse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5754425 >Beato confirmed in red that she did something Pony confirmed.

Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:35:01 2010 No.5754483
File: 338 KB, 640x480, 20100710 231933.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5754425
>I handed
Meta-Beatrice is a personification of the rules, which includes all the people, so that's okay.
Also don't you want to become Beatrice?

>>5754399
Don't forget doubletrice.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:38:01 2010 No.5754506 >>5754483 Doubletrice? Sounds familiar... Is it related to EP4's scene with 2 Beatos? What does this theory say?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:42:01 2010 No.5754534 >>5754506 Both Jessica and Shannon are Beatrice. Could still be possible with Shannon being the Good Beatrice and Jessica being the Evil Culprit Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:43:01 2010 No.5754539 >>5754506 Well, it has various interpretations and justifications, but the point is there are two Beato's, usually Shannon/Shkannon and Jessica.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:49:01 2010 No.5754591 >>5754534 But, if Jessica is the evil Beatrice, who killed Natsuhi?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:58:01 2010 No.5754653 >>5754591 That's what I've been trying to figure out forever.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 15:58:01 2010 No.5754654 File: 363 KB, 640x2400, INTUITION.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] It's just women's intuition. Really.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 16:37:01 2010 No.5754950 This thread and everyone in it is so fucking stupid and so is Umineko. Enjoy your fucking bullshit solution that's even worse than Higurashi. Yeah I mad.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 23 16:55:01 2010 No.5755083 >>5754950 He mad.

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