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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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5435620 No.5435620 [Reply] [Original]

Has anyone here read SICP?

>> No.5436156
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5436156

have you read your sickpee today

>> No.5436182

No
I dont a programmar

>> No.5436184

>>5436182
But you said you'd a programmer before!

>> No.5436187

I'm too dumb to be able to conjure spells with my keyboard or anything.

>> No.5436191

I program in HTML, but I can't do anything other than that.

>> No.5436193

I like rocks.

>> No.5436195

>>5436184
No
They misunderstand
My grammar is not professional
I dont even learning the basics

>> No.5436402
File: 384 KB, 1024x768, 1277043884313.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5436402

>>5436195
This means you need to read your SICP today to improve your skills.

>> No.5436613

What is the story behind this SICP meme? Sorry, I'm not from /prog/

>> No.5436622

I read it, but I couldn't understand. Only understood the part about conjuring computer programs with magical spells, or something like that.

>> No.5436639

>>5436402
However, I am not quite eligible to am watching SICP
Therefore, I holding no intrigue of that subject
We are unable to really intelligent we

>> No.5436658

>>5436191

You know HTML isn't really a programming language right?
Shit it's more like a fancy fucking word processor.You guys probably don't remember old word processors that used tags though.

>> No.5439500

I tried reading it but was not familiar with the maths so I stopped rather early.

>> No.5439532

>>5436658
It's a markup language.

>> No.5439543

I'm an EXPERT BBCODE PROGRAMMER.
I have no need for toy languages like Scheme.

>> No.5442956

bump

>> No.5442976
File: 155 KB, 1031x882, SICP.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5442976

>> No.5442978
File: 24 KB, 500x431, boxed_set.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5442978

I've read SICP. As a programmer, I think the way 4chan sensationalizes it is blown out of proportion.

I value the the works of Donald Knuth (The Art of Computer Programming) over SICP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming

>> No.5442999

I don't need to read decades-old theory books in order to be an EXPERT PROGRAMMER.

>> No.5443012

>>5442999
Cool story bro.

>> No.5443017

>>5442999
No wonder why they are so shitty.

>> No.5443018

>>5442978
Knuth is overrated shit. But everyone should still read TAoCP. Also read Code Complete (written by a Microsoft contractor, but who cares, read it anyway), The Mythical Man Month (ancient book, still so very true), Rapid Development (written by the Code Complete guy before).
Also get the two Programming Pearls books.

>> No.5443019

>>5442978
Does your book have a wizard on it? No? Then fuck off.

>> No.5443021

>>5443012
Dare me to repeat it in hex?

>> No.5443052
File: 95 KB, 800x525, I double dare you, motherfucker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5443052

>>5443021

>> No.5443078

>>5443018
I haven't read TAoCP, but I guess I'll pick it up.
I have read Code Complete (very good book, especially for those with no work experience), The Mythical Man Month, and Rapid Development.
I haven't heard of programming pearls, but is it like SICP? I wasn't too impressed with SICP at the basic level, but during graduate school it was much better. Good for expanding your mind, but I don't think it was helpful in the beginning.

>>5442999
and that would be why all the jobs are getting out sourced, software projects are the most complicated projects humans build yet the worst planned, and why software engineers are forced to work ridiculously long hours to keep up with artificial deadlines.
something tells me you have never really worked in the software industry.

>> No.5443097

>>5443078
jobs are getting outsourced because third world peasants will work for $2 a day. have you read any of this theory shit? uni wasted years of my life shoving gallons of this outdated, needlessly complex bullshit down my throat and when I do get to the job, what is the thing that really matters? Uh, actually knowing how to produce code. I can test for the efficiency of an algorithm, it's not that hard. I don't need 500+ pages of bullshit written by some faggot mired in academia five decades ago to be able to do that.

>> No.5443169

>>5443097
This. People who need books to learn how to program will end up nowhere.

>> No.5443181

>>5443097
Programming jobs are not being outsourced to 'third world peasants' that 'will work for $2 a day'. Programming jobs are being outsourced, yes. Why? Because there's a LOCAL SKILL SHORTAGE.

>> No.5443185

>>5443097
like I said, the jobs getting out sourced are for code monkeys that produce code. having worked with several outsourcing agencies, the ones that get $2 an hour are bullshit. After 4 unsuccessful attempts with sup-par agencies my company only out sources to other companies that have a successful proven track record, and guess what? they charge more than it would take to build it ourselves. It is about beating time.

Of course, working on random consumer app #2302 with .net/java/python pays the bills, but is easily replaceable.

anyone can 'produce code'. these books are not about algorithms, they are about the software creation process, the human errors of software development, and the fundamental reasons why software fails, which gives insight to certain weaknesses of software development and what to watch out for.

The only class I recall being worthless was maybe computation theory, but FSA and Turing machines were useful if only for expanding my thought process.

By the way, I have noticed that within the last ten years the quality of programmers fresh out of college has dropped dramatically. Is this because everyone now only cares about producing code?

You do realize that these books are not aimed at academics, by the way.

>> No.5443204

>>5443181
Unfortunately Europe is also dropping their Diploma system with a 1 year co-op and replacing it with the US degree manufacturing system.

>> No.5443223

>>5443185
>You do realize that these books are not aimed at academics
They're aimed at profs who will shove them down students' throats to make up for the fact that they can't teach anything actually relevant

>By the way, I have noticed that within the last ten years the quality of programmers fresh out of college has dropped dramatically.
I'm sure you're in the position to judge that.

>these books are not about algorithms, they are about the software creation process, the human errors etc etc
You learn any of that first-hand by producing code, if you are not stupid.

>>5443181
They work more hours for less, and because they are third-world peasants who are literally starving, they are actually better than us because they devote every waking moment to studying seriously. Also in most other countries they don't waste students' time with "gen ed" crap. So we're both right.

>> No.5443254

>>5443223
>They're aimed at profs who will shove them down students' throats to make up for the fact that they can't teach anything actually relevant

I have never seen any of the above books recommended by a professor. No, they come up with academic garbage that's no use to actual programmers.

>You learn any of that first-hand by producing code, if you are not stupid.
No, you don't. You can learn that by working as a 'producer of code' in a number of different corporate environments over a number of years.. or you could read these books!

>> No.5443265

Just remember that your 2$ are 7$ or more in a third world country.

>> No.5443278

>>5443223
>>5443097
>thinks that countries like India are third-world
Ohohoho

>> No.5443330

>>5443223
considering I've been hiring them for going on 12 years now, yes I am. I've even noticed that Electrical Engineers, Physics Majors, and Math Majors with an interest in computing need to be caught up to speed on the process, but end up better than many people with a CS degree because they simply 'made it through the classes' and can 'produce code'.

trial and error for software development? I'll take a book I can read once in a few hours, and refer to every once in a while when I need to.

again, outsourcing to india/china is only a worry for the 'vb', 'java', '.net' line of programmers that know how to use libraries rather than think. Outsourcing is not simple, it requires far more micromanagement than doing something in house, and the quality from most places in China / India where you would actually save money is terrible. Things that matter are mostly outsourced to Europe, Japan, or America. It is about TIME not MONEY. I can assure you that the good companies in India are not going to save you any money with the extra work you have to do to keep them in check.

>> No.5443419

>>5443330
Funny how you consider yourself to be anything above a code monkey. If you were, you'd have written your own 3D engine by now.

You're just as easily replaceable as those .NET/Java programmers.

>> No.5443437

>>5443419
I know you're trying to bait for rage here, but you're making it way too obvious. I'm not a programmer of any sorts (shit son, summerfag!) but even I can tell you're shit.

>> No.5443447

>>5436658
Some people are still cool enough to format their documents with markup (TeX).

>> No.5443493

>>5443437
No, that guy obviously considers himself somehow above other programmers. Notice how in that post and the one he earlier made he talks about people who "can only produce code" as if he's any different. He thinks he's not like all the rest when he has nothing to show for it. It's like someone who learns drawing by books and feels himself above people who draw anime because they can only "produce drawings".

Notice how he doesn't even use capitalization. I doubt he's much of a programmer if he can't even write properly.

>> No.5443495

>>5443330
>again, outsourcing to india/china is only a worry for the 'vb', 'java', '.net' line of programmers that know how to use libraries rather than think.

Pretty much this. I have an MSc in CS and I'm currently building vision systems for a few US government agencies. This isn't shit that they could outsource to just any curry breath. I'm originally a Canadian citizen (I recently got my US green card a few months ago) and they did outsource to me while I was still in Canada. But not because I was cheaper, but because I was an expert in my field with strong engineering and programming skills. They've been paying me top dollar.

>> No.5443527 [DELETED] 

>>5443495
>got outsourced himself
>still thinks they value him for his expertise rather than his lower wages
Enjoy your curry nigger

>> No.5443536

>>5443495
Get the fuck out, normalfag.

>> No.5443561

>>5443495
'Vb', 'java', '.net' programmer reporting in. Fuck.

>> No.5443566
File: 90 KB, 1284x847, alice_at_MIT.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5443566

I'VE WATCHED SICP!

>> No.5443573

>>5443419
No, writing a 3d engine is worthless when others who specialize in it have already written several, and I have no interest in them.

The field I work in focuses on embedded machines, middleware, and dds. I have to deal with people who say their job is to 'produce code' every day.
I could capitalize properly, but since I am already writing informally (ie as I would speak) it seems like more work than it is worth, and if I were to write formally I would just be called out as a grammar nazi or whatever else.

I only refer to people who tell me it is their job to 'produce code'. People who prove that they can actually think have never told me that their job is to 'produce code'. That is never your job. Your job is solve problems.
Also, I was referring to the fact that most college graduates now cannot do the most basic part of software development: requirements gathering and architecture design work.
There are are quite a few people that only have the job of implementation, but more errors come from this than anything else.

Reading a book gives you insight to another person's thought process that requires you to re-evaluate your own. Ideally you would speak with, or have a seminar with other coders, but that is quite hard when many people just want their job done and nothing else.

>>5443561
It's only a problem if you only know how to use libraries. In software that is used to mean the people can produce code to solve a problem, but can't explain why it works, why certain design choices were made, and the advantages of your particular solution.

>> No.5443582

>>5443536
I'm not a normalfag, I'm your typical engineer/scientist with personality trait issues. I'm almost 30 and I'm still single.

>> No.5443584

/prog/ level discussions? in my /jp/ ?

>> No.5443592

>>5443527
I never had my job replaced, I said that the US government outsourced to me while I was still living in Canada 4 years ago. I didn't necessarily replace someone's job, I just happened to be the right guy for the job.

I received a work visa a couple of months later, and was done working on site after that.

>> No.5443594

>'vb', 'java', '.net' line of programmers that know how to use libraries rather than think.

You know, I've heard comments like this a few times and I'm inclined to think it's crap. Having some experience with both Java and .NET (I'm mostly a C programmer myself, but I diversify) the standard libraries don't really do anything that you wouldn't probably have a library for anyway. If you want to create an application, you still need to express everything about your application at some level no matter how many libraries you have. If you're saying that these are programmers that can't program, that's a problem caused by something else entirely, not the fact that they've been nurtured on languages that have standard libraries to support a lot of common operations.

I will grant, however, that someone who uses a language with, say, built-in tree and linked list structures might never feel the need to create a tree or linked list themselves, which is a pretty valuable learning experience by itself, but pretty much every beginner Java or C# class I've seen explicitly teaches that stuff so I don't think it's so much of a problem

>> No.5443598

>>5443561
If you want to branch out of developing only enterprise applications there is nothing stopping you from going out and learning half a dozen new languages. If you already have a lot of rudiments then you essentially just need to learn syntax. I don't know that you'll get a job with anything other than those and C++/C#, though...

>> No.5443604

>>5443592
Ah, but you may have replaced someone's job nonetheless. The issue with outsourcing isn't an explicit 'Oh shit, I got fired and my job's been taken by a Paki'; it's that the job market becomes a lot wider and thus more competitive when outsourcing becomes an option. So you may have skills that would demand a certain salary, but may have to settle for a lower salary because some dude in India has the same skills and has a lower cost of living than you.

>> No.5443640

>If you're saying that these are programmers that can't program, that's a problem caused by something else entirely, not the fact that they've been nurtured on languages that have standard libraries to support a lot of common operations.

Yes, the term extends from people who know the popular language of the time, but don't understand what they are doing.
It is not a product of the Language itself. You do not need to know how it is implemented in the library, but rather why and when you should use it.
see >people can produce code to solve a problem, but can't explain why it works, why certain design choices were made, and the advantages of your particular solution compared to others.
Nothing is wrong with these languages, they all are useful.
It seems to stem from the fact that many colleges seem to be teaching in the wrong way. For example, one of my coworker's college required a 1 year long software project with a randomly chosen team. No changes, complaints, or excuses. Of course, 3 of the 5 people did nothing and graduated. Many people slip through, especially in schools that are too eager in cutting classes like discrete math / combinatorics, numerical analysis or linear algebra, that tend to weed out many people. Group Projects without individual accountability are by far the worst.

>> No.5443691

>Has anyone here read SICP?

I've read the VN.

>> No.5443793

>>>/prog/1277198307/1-40

>>5439543
Jones is sadly the only real programmer in this thread.

>> No.5443846

Books are primarily useful in avoiding pitfalls in software design, maintenance, and testing.
If you don't program in a bubble, and use resources like newsgroups, your coworkers, or even google for project implementation details, reading a few books can save you time in things that you are inexperienced in and prevent you from making costly mistakes. This is especially true for details that are hard to learn if you don't have a solid foundation.
I'd say: talking to an expert > a focused newsgroup > a good devblog = books > code snippets from google = hacking everything out from scratch yourself.

>> No.5443972
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5443972

>>5443691
Beautiful, isn't it.

>> No.5444447
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5444447

>>5443972
Yes

>> No.5444468

not the whole thing, but yes as it was used as a textbook in the undergrad program

I guess M.I.T. don't use it themselves anymore, but it's still current elsewhere

>> No.5445144

Yes.

>> No.5449112

>>5443584
>/prog/ level discussions
Have you actually seen /prog/?

>>
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