/jp/ - Otaku Culture

File: 483 KB, 2560x1450, 1257792074042.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:34:13 2010 No.5367752 [Reply] [Original]

Bernkastel isn't evil, she's merely trying to win a game.

In episode 1, she clearly states her intention is to win at all costs.
Episode 3, she helps reunite ANGE with her older brother, she tacks on the no name rule to make the game fair for Beatrice.
Episode 5, she wanted Battler to continue along and solve the game. He didn't so she brought in Erika.

Natsuhi was just a viable suspect in episode 5, and the logic fit that Natsuhi killed the first twilight victims.
The whole "kinzo never trusted you red text" was to get Natsuhi to stop being delusional, maybe if Natsuhi reached some common sense she would have told everyone that Kinzo died years ago, then people would believe her story.

Beatrice is the evil witch, have you forgotten that /jp/, she's the one responsible for the tragedy on rokkenjima.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 10:36:13 2010 No.5367761 >Bernkastel isn't evil FUCK YOU. SHE IS THE MOST EVIL CHARACTER IN THE THING. DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE MAKE HER OUT TO BE A GOOD GIRL.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:37:13 2010 No.5367764 >>5367761 Fuck you my darling Bern is an angel.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:37:13 2010 No.5367766 The whole trial was to prove her innocent, don't forget that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:38:13 2010 No.5367767 But magic doesn't exist. RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHTTT BATTLEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR?

>>	Flee !!TRanvZl56g3 Sun Jun 13 10:38:13 2010 No.5367768 I don't mind if she's evil or not.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:38:13 2010 No.5367770 All witches are evil, didn't you learn anything as a child?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:38:13 2010 No.5367773 I don't mind if i can cum inside her.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:39:13 2010 No.5367776 File: 19 KB, 500x281, 09092007-00t.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5367770

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 10:40:13 2010 No.5367780 >>5367764 ...Don't you talk shit about my mistress. She is irrevocably evil and cruel. I won't accept anyone trying to make her out to be a nice girl.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:40:13 2010 No.5367782 >>5367761 Sir, Bern is a good girl. I believe you should get over it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:42:13 2010 No.5367794 I fail to see how trying to win a game at all costs makes someone 'good'. In fact that often makes them more evil.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:42:13 2010 No.5367796 >>5367780 Fuck you(excuse my language) Bern is an angel and you can't accept it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:44:13 2010 No.5367814 She is blatantly made out to be evil at every opportunity. She is about as good as every main villain ever is good. Any reasoning that she is "good" can be applied to any main villain ever in a similar fashion and is only troll logic.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 10:45:13 2010 No.5367821 >>5367796 >>5367782 No she is not. Bern is not, was not, and never will be, a good girl in any sense of the term.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:47:13 2010 No.5367830 File: 70 KB, 641x478, was that necessary.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] yes, bernkastel is clearly a good girl

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:47:13 2010 No.5367832 File: 36 KB, 492x399, Lambdadelta.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5367821 Well i say she is a good girl.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:48:13 2010 No.5367834 >>5367830 Delusions are bad for you. Natsuhi will be better in the long run. Bern knows from experience.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:49:13 2010 No.5367838 >>5367832 Lambda is a good girl who is guilty about making Bern a bad girl through a game that turned into endless torture and so tries to convince herself that Bern is still a good girl.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:50:13 2010 No.5367843 >>5367838 Blue=Good Pink=Bitch

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:51:13 2010 No.5367847 Erika x Battler and Bern x Lambda the OTPairings

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:53:13 2010 No.5367859

>>5367843
Pink = Happy when Battler discovers the truth like Beato wanted
Blue = Doesn't want to believe Battler reached the truth and is really worried that he did and tries to deny that he did

Easy indicator of a bad girl, she dislikes it when something good happens for the protagonist

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:53:13 2010 No.5367862 >>5367847 Too bad erika is DEEEEEEEEAD for real. Beato was always the better choice.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:54:13 2010 No.5367866 >>5367862 Too bad Beato is just some maid playing make believe. Rosa is superior.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:54:13 2010 No.5367868 >>5367862 I can't wait till Beato dies and Battler goes back to the sweet young Ange-sama.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:55:13 2010 No.5367872 >>5367866 Rosa is the Rokkenjima train, your opinion is invalid

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:56:13 2010 No.5367874 >>5367832 Good in bed, maybe.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:56:13 2010 No.5367875 >>5367868 Ange is 6 years old and is his sister, what you are suggesting is morally and legally wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:56:13 2010 No.5367879 Well if you say Bern is bad then blame 34.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:57:13 2010 No.5367884 >>5367866 >maid playing make believe Is it me or does that sound like a good thing?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:57:13 2010 No.5367887 >>5367879 34=bored witch Bern=root of evil

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:59:13 2010 No.5367894 >>5367879 Lambda's actually trying to fix her screwup, so don't dump on her.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 10:59:13 2010 No.5367895 >>5367875 I mean Ange-sama can get back on with her life.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:00:13 2010 No.5367897 >>5367874 Well...hm. Rape isn't exactly "good," but I can't deny that I enjoy it.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:01:13 2010 No.5367902

Episode 1,2,3,4 Beato was the game master but she actually just has a hard time explaining her feelings and a good girl. Episode 5 Lambda was the game master, she is not as pure as Beato but she is still a good girl at heart. Just like Miyo was a very good girl until she was raped in an orphanage. Let me point out that Bern was never raped so her being a bad girl is not okay. Episode 6 Battler is the game master that doesn't count. Episode 7 Bern is going to be game master. She was saved until last because she is the most bad of all bad girls.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:02:13 2010 No.5367908 File: 467 KB, 600x687, BernAnge.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] But Bern gave this sweet young girl another chance to see her beloved onii-chan.How can that be evil!?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:02:13 2010 No.5367909 >>5367902 >implying her game won't jsut be what Featherine says That woman is the true bitch and Asumu.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:04:13 2010 No.5367914 No one errs or does wrong willingly or knowingly. Bernkastel has lived for so long she has lost sight of herself, she is just a poor confused little girl who needs to be educated.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:04:13 2010 No.5367916 File: 137 KB, 500x500, mammon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5367895 But she will never meet Mammon then.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:05:13 2010 No.5367923

Bern is just the personification of the detective side.
Normally this side is the helpful one but it can be seen as very cruel from the suspects' side, or from the side of the ones who care about the suspects.

There is nothing evil about her, it's just a question of point of view.
I would say that the one who want to continue the "hell" that is this game forever is the evil one.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:06:13 2010 No.5367928 >>5367902 Miyo was never raped. She was about to be raped, and then Hifumi picked her up.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:06:13 2010 No.5367929 File: 37 KB, 555x400, Rikatears.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Bern gave up on happiness a long time ago.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:06:13 2010 No.5367930 >Natsuhi was just a viable suspect in episode 5, and the logic fit that Natsuhi killed the first twilight victims. Only because Bern/Erika went out of her way to frame her.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:07:13 2010 No.5367934 >>5367908 Bern made a small 6 year old girl reject her adoptive mother so that she could use and kill her 12 years later after she had forgotten the incident. She's a bad girl and you will love her for it.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:07:13 2010 No.5367935

>>5367923
Lambda understands that there is nothing wrong with continuing like this forever. Everyone can be happy. Bern says it's wrong just because it's not natural, she's a cold realist who doesn't care about happy fantasy and wants to destroy it and show everyone how cruel the real world is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:07:13 2010 No.5367936 >>5367928 Can you prove she was NEVER raped? She was tortured all day long, it's just normal she would be raped.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:07:13 2010 No.5367937

>>5367923
Wait, what, no, not in the slightest.

It is the detective's duty to uncover the truth. Erika and Bern DO NOT DO THAT. They are half-assed detectives, gladly framing someone who didn't do it so long as they can get away with it. Bernkastel is evil, same with Erika. That's why they try to convict someone who is innocent.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:09:13 2010 No.5367946 >>5367929 Didn't Rika say something about Bern?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:10:13 2010 No.5367949 >>5367936 You just want her to be raped. Not every torture of a young girl by an older man has to involve the sexual. What if he just doesn't like them that age?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:10:13 2010 No.5367950 Bern grew up with a flat chest. That is why she is evil. She was denied a busty chest.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:11:13 2010 No.5367955 >>5367950 In the game she is busty.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:11:13 2010 No.5367956 >>5367937 Yeah. Bern doesn't think that "winning the game" and "solving the game" are the same thing, and she only cares about the winning part.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:11:13 2010 No.5367960 File: 19 KB, 300x300, Trollkastel_png_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >my face when I torture Jessica, Rudolf, and Sayo in the next game

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:12:13 2010 No.5367963 >>5367960 You're just misunderstood they will forgive you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:13:13 2010 No.5367971 >>5367960 >Jessica Angsty and/or murderous dumb blond. >Sayo Crazy murderous maid. >Rudolf Fucked up Battler's birth badly. This is justice. Bern is a good girl.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:13:13 2010 No.5367974 >>5367963 >misunderstood My beloved mistress is the cruelest witch in the universe. You will respect her and hate her for it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:14:13 2010 No.5367981 >>5367974 But i don't want to hate bern.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:15:13 2010 No.5367984 >>5367974 You're basically Bern's Sakuya.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:15:13 2010 No.5367987
File: 70 KB, 1280x720, Bern.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5367960
Hey, Hey Jessica Hey, hey! Your boyfriend is your best friend and she wants to kill you! Oh and you're adopted your parents don't even love you. Hey, Hey, Hey Sayo! Your murders are just murders, you've betrayed everyone you've ever loved! Hey, Hey, Hey Rudolf... stay classy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:15:13 2010 No.5367989 >>5367974 Bern is so humble, saying she's cruel when she's actually really nice. She must be a Japanese witch.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:16:13 2010 No.5367992

>>5367935
Continuing a game where you see a dozens people being murdered in some really gruesome way for eternity isn't really what I would call happy.

>>5367937
No, the detective side in this game is only trying to break this game.
Framing Natsuhi or killing 6 people isn't something bad for them, simply because Natsuhi or the other people who were killed weren't there to begin with, after all everything is just a fiction.

They just want to end this game by breaking the gamemaster's logic by using the Schrödinger's cat paradox, if they can prove that Natsuhi did everything in episode 6 without the help of magic then the game ends.
It doesn't mean that Natsuhi really killed anyone in the true version of the event, it just means that they won the game against the witch.

After all the whole focus of Umineko has always been about proving that the witch didn't do it, to show an alternate way that a human could do.
Finding the true culprit or whatever ISN'T the main objective.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:18:13 2010 No.5368002

>>5367992
They are all happy in the golden land. It's worth the pain of dying for the pure joy only experienced once a lifetime usually they get at the end of each episode. Especially when they all die pretty quickly by poison or a shot to the head anyway. Did you see how happy everyone was at the end of ep3? and ep6 at the wedding?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:18:13 2010 No.5368004

>>5367992
>After all the whole focus of Umineko has always been about proving that the witch didn't do it, to show an alternate way that a human could do.
>Finding the true culprit or whatever ISN'T the main objective.
Yeah, if you're like, at the end of episode one. It's always been about finding the truth. Not the bloody alternate truth, but the real McCoy. The truth... SHALL SET YOU FREE!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:19:13 2010 No.5368009 The level of damage a malicious fanfic writer is capable of is infinitely greater than what a malicious reader can manage. Bern's game is going to be unspeakably ugly.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:19:13 2010 No.5368011 >>5367992 Maybe if you're still playing episode four. The story has long since moved past "it's magic prove me wrong"

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:20:13 2010 No.5368013 >>5368004 It's not. Battler found the truth after all, did it end the game?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:21:13 2010 No.5368021 >>5368013 He needed to only display that he had truly reached it by recreating a game board that followed the rules. He almost did that but then Bern and Erika fucked him over.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:21:13 2010 No.5368024

>>5368009
It should be. A witch didn't commit those murders, a deceptive killer did. And that killer should be seen as the evil that she is. Of course Bern is going to FUCK IT UP and have George seem guilty, but the point stands. The reality of Rokkenjima is as follows: One very human entity did some very evil acts.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:21:13 2010 No.5368025 >>5367984 Is Sakuya treated like a toy and subjected to Flan and Remi's sexual whims on a regular basis?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:22:13 2010 No.5368029 >>5368025 ....I don't think so....

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:23:13 2010 No.5368033 Umineko as a whole is a story about escapism. Bern is basically Marsh from FFTA. Battler right now has just chose to stay stuck happy in his delusion running away from your guilt and responsibility.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:23:13 2010 No.5368037 File: 407 KB, 966x975, 6dc597da3c735e9a9cb98c3bdedec49c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5368025 In my imagination.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:24:13 2010 No.5368042

>>5368024
Actually everyone just died eating small bombs except Shannon who was trying to get george to eat less by example by eating less herself. Then she decided to write a bunch of letters about all these murders that happened because small bombs was a lame way for the honorable ushiromiya family to die and she thought she could better serve them by making their island famous and mysterious.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:24:13 2010 No.5368046 >>5368002 >>Did you see how happy everyone was at the end of ep3? and ep6 at the wedding? It's not like these people were real though.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:24:13 2010 No.5368047 File: 68 KB, 566x800, 8c3b47707afbe44bf304e508ee038032.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5368029 Then I'm not like Sakuya.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:26:13 2010 No.5368053

>>5368033
Remember We're Still In Episode 6
In his dreamscape I doubt he'll stay
We shall soon see the light of Day
For reality and fantasy cannot Mix
And recall the promise he made to the witch
Preventing his fantasy from going without a hitch
He said in red: I'll make you dead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:26:13 2010 No.5368055 >>5368046 They are perfectly real until the party pooper Bern tries to deny it all with the help of whatever pieces she is employing at the time. Like Ange in ep3.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:26:13 2010 No.5368057 I thought Bern was just the bad side inside Rika.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:26:13 2010 No.5368060 >>5368046 Yup. See Rosa and Maria in the golden land. Golden Land is cocks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:26:13 2010 No.5368061 >>5368055 Yeah, like the delusions you see in your mind are real.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:28:13 2010 No.5368065 which anime is this?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:29:13 2010 No.5368071

>>5368061
If I believe they are real then they are as real as anything I believe is real. There is no reason for the same reality to be identical and objective and experienced in exactly the same manner by all consciousnesses, and that is what evil people like Bern do not understand.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:29:13 2010 No.5368076 >>5368065 You mean game And it's Umineko.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:29:13 2010 No.5368077

>>5368055
Bern and Lambda are both not ground in reality.

Witches didn't do it, but Natsuhi sure as FUCK isn't the mastermind either. Lies are bad. Sure, minor embellishments like "I gave Maria candy using magic" is fine, but lies like "Sayo didn't kill everyone who ever loved her a witch did it I swear" are bad.

Eva was portrayed as a Serial Killer when she wasn't. Ange lost her family. I don't know about you, but if not salvation for the lives of the Ushiromiya family, I demand in the very least JUSTICE!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:31:13 2010 No.5368086 >>5368076 thank you. I'm kind of new to this sort of thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:32:13 2010 No.5368098 >>5368077 What are you talking about, Eva is clearly the murderer. Did anyone else notice that her voice is the same as Takano's?

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 11:32:13 2010 No.5368099 >>5368061 They are, to me. Why do you think I'm defending Bern so much?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:33:13 2010 No.5368101

>>5368077
Justice will only be brougth down when the illusion will be dispelled.
There is someone out there who know the whole truth, someone who is the original writer of these leters.
Someone who signed with "Maria" and write in the same way as "Beatrice".
This someone exists in the real world of Umineko, and she is the one running away from her responsibility and guilt.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:33:13 2010 No.5368103 >>5368098 And Jessica and Lambdadelta both have blonde hair, I fail to see your point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:33:13 2010 No.5368106 File: 692 KB, 1066x1425, 8298602.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Bern is pure and elegant

>>	‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮‬‬‬‬ Sun Jun 13 11:34:13 2010 No.5368109 >>5367752 She looks like Rika from higurashi.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:35:13 2010 No.5368114

>>5368101
I know. But the thought of Sayo or whoever the culprit is getting away with this because of her intentions annoys me. Objectively, the acts of the murderer were so evil I find it difficult to see how the murderer could do what she did.

Betraying trust, killing in gruesome manners, sending letters taunting the living..... It's awful. The murderer truly is criminal scum.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:38:13 2010 No.5368123 >>5368114 But the criminal thinks they're doing the right thing and everyone will be revived at the end. They even kill themselves. Don't blame them, blame Japanese society for allowing a poor orphan girl to be raised in such a poor household.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:40:13 2010 No.5368134

>>5368123
Ah, fuck that shit. Intentions mean fuckall. And the killer only killed herself in episode 4. In episode 3, which is the only thing close to what we have to the real Rokkenjima, we've got Eva surviving, Battler MAYBE surviving but most likely dead, Jessica missing, and the killer missing.

Would you show mercy to a man who killed 15 people because he wanted them to go to heaven?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:42:13 2010 No.5368145 >>5368134 You couldn't blame him. He did "evil" unknowingly. Intention means everything. It only means nothing to evil people who want to judge everyone by the same ruleset. Punishing people who do not understand why they are being punished.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:44:13 2010 No.5368156 >>5368145 That's retarded.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:47:13 2010 No.5368167

Beatrice, and by extension Sayo, know that what she did is evil.
That's why the games are hell for her.
She probably didn't know when she did it but she definitely realized it later.
Yet she is still there writing these letters and having these delusions rather than telling the truth to the world.
That's escapism and Bern is right in wanting to drag her out of it.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:47:13 2010 No.5368168

>>5368145
How many people do you think have "evil" intentions? Seriously, how many? The answer is hardly any. Living in such a subjective mindset gets us nowhere, as my moral belief system could be that raping little girls gives them eternal happiness, so why shouldn't I?

The answer is that it DOESN'T give them eternal happiness, that I'm objectively WRONG. Intentions do not matter so much as the objective reality that the actions reflect. Jessica didn't go to heaven when she was backstabbed by Sayo in episode two, she just bled out to death, most likely wondering why. Same with Rosa whenever she is killed by Sayo.

Moral actions have an obligation to reflect reality, otherwise people just do what ever the hell they like, because they can rationalize it as good when it obviously is not.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:51:13 2010 No.5368186

>>5368123
>>5368134
You know... Beato hasn't actually been proven to be the murderer yet. You don't know what the exact contents of the message bottles were, and you don't know why she sent the letters either. So it might be a little premature to have this argument.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:52:13 2010 No.5368198 >>5368186 Shkanontrice's whole bloody point is to solve the redtext, more or less. It's a parlor trick that allows her to slip past it like a serpent, killing everyone while being undetected.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:55:13 2010 No.5368211 >>5368198 The red has multiple solutions, and they aren't all mutually exclusive either. Even if Shkannontrice is true, that doesn't necessarily make her the murderer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:56:13 2010 No.5368217 >>5368211 Beatrice killed Battler at the end of episode 4, said in red.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:57:13 2010 No.5368222 >>5368211 Remember, Virgilla already told us in episode 5 "Beatrice didn't commit the murders for herpderpderpaderp." Basically telling us Beatrice committed the murders.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:57:13 2010 No.5368227 >>5368217 No one other than Battler was on the island, said in red.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:58:13 2010 No.5368231 >>5368086 Kill yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 11:59:13 2010 No.5368234 >>5368227 She still said "I" will kill you. Killing someone with a time based mechanism isn't hard, killing someone after your death isn't impossible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:00:13 2010 No.5368243 >>5368222 Beato used similar language about EP1's second twilight to say that someone didn't commit suicide after committing murder. Your argument is like claiming she confirmed that Eva or Hideyoshi committed murder.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:03:13 2010 No.5368258 >>5368234 She also said "I am here now, and I will kill you." Neat trick if she's dead and "I" refers to her personally.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:03:13 2010 No.5368262 to bad she cant win any game because she already lost it

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:06:13 2010 No.5368271 >>5368234 >Implying you've never heard a standard "who am I" riddle construction before

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:09:13 2010 No.5368283 File: 18 KB, 640x360, umineko5_88.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Nobody's pushing forth the idea of Bern being a good girl anymore. Yay.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:12:13 2010 No.5368304 >>5368283 I view Bern as pathetic. She's not even the true antagonist of Umineko, and she managed to be beaten by Battler, of all people. Battler!

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:13:13 2010 No.5368313 >>5368304 Battler's the hero; he's kind of forced to win.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:16:13 2010 No.5368322 >>5368313 At the same time, Bern comes across as a villain who thinks she's much cooler than she is. Lambdadelta, now, she is a great antagonist, Bern is more or less Cobra Commander at this point. WITCHES! RETREAAAAAAAT!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:17:13 2010 No.5368336 >>5368322 She's gone to cry to mommy Featherine, the new game promises to be exciting for her.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:18:13 2010 No.5368339 >>5368322 The mirage mother fucking coordinator is totally going to do SOMETHING next episode. Most likely cause the death of Featherine,and we'll love her for it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:18:13 2010 No.5368342 >>5368336 Didn't Featherine basically kidnap her from the cathedral at the end of the duel?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:20:13 2010 No.5368349 >>5368342 Nah, Bern went there in the ??? party because she had been DEFEATED BY THE POWER OF LOVE AND RAINBOWS.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:20:13 2010 No.5368352 >>5368339 Calling it now. Lambdadelta is going to use Jessica in order to make Featherine die. This is ridiculously specific and based on fucktons of assumptions.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:24:13 2010 No.5368366 >>5368352 It would just be fair for 34 to have a piece in the game, I believe.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:24:13 2010 No.5368368 >>5368349 Fuck that. Not to stray too far from my beloved mistress, but if Umineko gets a superhappy ending like Higurashi I'm going to be pissed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:26:13 2010 No.5368377 >>5368368 I don't want it to be grimdark, but I do want JUSTICE. If they all live happily ever after in death, that'll be lame.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:30:13 2010 No.5368405 >>5368349 See, when something VERY CLOSE TO, BUT NOT QUITE THE end is superhappy in a series like Umineko, that's NOT QUITE A GOOD THING if you want happy end.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:33:13 2010 No.5368416 >>5368405 I was just explaining why she had gone to request Featherine's help.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sun Jun 13 12:35:13 2010 No.5368431 >>5367875 Pharaohs used to marry their sisters. Why are you opposed to that?

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:35:13 2010 No.5368433 >>5368405 I think R07 said the ending will be bittersweet. I really hope he lives up to his word.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:37:13 2010 No.5368442

>>5368433
Bittersweet is how Umineko should end. It shouldn't be ungodly depressing or AND THEN BEATO AND BATTLER WERE KAWAII TOGETHER FOREVER, it should be "Yeah, well, half of the family died, but the cousins lived, and Sayo regained her sanity in her last moments." or something along those lines.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:39:13 2010 No.5368448 File: 675 KB, 882x680, 34b4ef306bce675845d27fa781fd4f2d3805ea7a.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >bern thread >no footjobs What is wrong with you people.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sun Jun 13 12:39:13 2010 No.5368450 >>5367928 Actually, Miyo was forced to clean a clogged up toilet with her mouth. She wasn't very pure after she ate all that shit. I agree there's no evidence she was raped though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:39:13 2010 No.5368453 bitch needs to die

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:39:13 2010 No.5368455 All of the adults die but battler lives happly ever after with Ange-sama. Do you think that is bitter-sweet enough?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:40:13 2010 No.5368459 File: 89 KB, 460x299, htf_imgcache_28060.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5368450 Looks like someone had a shitty childhood.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:40:13 2010 No.5368460 >>5368448 Tailjobs are better. Too bad nobody ever thought to make shit like that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:41:13 2010 No.5368462 >>5368455 Throw in blind moe Jessica and you've got a deal.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:42:13 2010 No.5368471 >>5368459 YEEEAAAAHHHHH!!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:43:13 2010 No.5368475 >>5368462 I'm actually of the opinion that Juuza is Jessica. Why? Why the fuck not?

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sun Jun 13 12:45:13 2010 No.5368487 >>5368460 Since when do cats have prehensile tails?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:45:13 2010 No.5368493 >>5368455 And Ange meets a child Mammon at her school.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:46:13 2010 No.5368495 >>5368475 I think I'm the ONLY one who thinks Juuza is JUST A FUCKING MERC I MEAN FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST NOT EVERYONE IN UMINEKO HAS TO BE SOMEONE ELSE.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:47:13 2010 No.5368498 >>5368460 Bern tail would feel amazing.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:47:13 2010 No.5368504 >>5368487 A cat having a prehensile tail would be nothing short of a miracle. Is it really any surprise that Bern can use hers as such?

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:48:13 2010 No.5368510 >>5368498 It does indeed feel amazing. BERN TAILJOB WHOO WHOO WHOO!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:49:13 2010 No.5368517 >>5368493 Yeah Ange deserves a happy ending.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sun Jun 13 12:50:13 2010 No.5368522 >>5368475 A better theory is that Goda is Maria's father and he murders everyone in order to ensure his daughter gets the family fortune.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 12:50:13 2010 No.5368524 Well, bedtime. I'm sure that my delusions of Bernrape are going to feel especially real tonight. Fuck you guys.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:50:13 2010 No.5368527 how everyone is assuming that Sayo is the culprit when this is only a possibility is making me laugh.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:52:13 2010 No.5368533 >>5368462 JuuzaBattlerXBlindMoeJessica is my OTP, EP3 should be the real Rokkenjima.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:54:13 2010 No.5368544 >>5368527 I think Kumasawa and Nanjo did it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:54:13 2010 No.5368548 >>5368527 Because anyone who supports Shkannontrice is a moron. End of story.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:57:13 2010 No.5368563 >>5368533 Fuck, man, can I get a brofist or something? I feel exactly the same way. Moralfags should get to live, at the very least.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sun Jun 13 12:57:13 2010 No.5368565 >>5368544 Kumasawa was actually Kinzo's wife. Her children pretended she was a servant because they didn't like her hairstyle and she murdered them in retaliation to that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 12:59:13 2010 No.5368577 >>5368548 So R07 is a moron then. Make sense.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:01:13 2010 No.5368582 Nanjo's granddaughter disguised herself as him and murdered everyone on the island.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:01:13 2010 No.5368586 >>5368577 It took you some time to realize.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:03:13 2010 No.5368590 >>5368577 >>assuming he supports Shkannontrice

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:03:13 2010 No.5368592 >>5368582 Shannon is Nanjo's granddaughter who rotates between disguising herself as Kanon and Nanjo.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:07:13 2010 No.5368617 >>5368590 Did you actually play the games? Of course he does.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:09:13 2010 No.5368631 >>5368592 So battler wanted to hit his grandfather's friend granddaughter? What the.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:11:13 2010 No.5368647 >>5368592 Shkanjo

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:11:13 2010 No.5368649 >>5368617 >>believing he have understand everything in umineko by taking the more obviousand retarded answer as the truth. And yes, I have played the game until ep6.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:18:13 2010 No.5368697 >>5368649 Sometimes a DID meido is just a DID meido. Ryukushi has said in interviews and the episode 6 text itself that what you see is what you get.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:22:13 2010 No.5368720

>>5368697
Said in interview?
He said that the key was in ep6.
Where does he said that the key is Shkannon?

and ryukishi also said that he will not give a clear and direct answer like in higurashi. In fact he doesn't want to give an answer at all.
So I quote you:

"and the episode 6 text itself that what you see is what you get."

*problem here*

But still, keep believing into your " IT CAN ONLY BE THIS POSSIBLITY". it is entertaining.

>>	Sun Jun 13 13:26:13 2010 No.5368746 File: 140 KB, 617x674, 1270665894515.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5367752 Actually she's the cruelest of the witches.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:26:13 2010 No.5368752 >>5368746 Ange. Just Ange. (and Angeburger)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:28:13 2010 No.5368758 >>5368746 Put my Ange-sama down!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:29:13 2010 No.5368762 Erika doesn't exist. If you actually read Episode 6, you'd realize this was true. Stop operating on vague spoilers. And therefore, if Erika doesn't exist and there are a guaranteed 17 people, Shannon =/= Kanon. Sorry.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:30:13 2010 No.5368765 >>5368762 I would laugh SO hard.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:32:02 2010 No.5368774 [DELETED]

>>5368762
Don't forget that anyone here who read ep6 JUST DON'T CARE or have forgotten Erika's last sentence in ep6. Even if it is "quite suspicious", they don't care.
Anyway it doesn't help a lot for the logic error, but to me even Kanonzo is better than Shkannontrice.
(Or are lying when they say that they read it, but this is something else.)

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:33:02 2010 No.5368782 [DELETED]

>>5368762
Don't forget that anyone here who read ep6 JUST DON'T CARE or have forgotten Erika's last sentence in ep6. Even if it is "quite suspicious", they don't care. Ryukishi put this here for the lulz.

(Or are lying when they say that they did read it, but this is something else.)

Anyway it doesn't help a lot for the logic error, but to me even Kanonzo is better than Shkannontrice.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 13:37:13 2010 No.5368792

>>5368762
Don't forget that anyone here who read ep6 JUST DON'T CARE or have forgotten Erika's last sentence in ep6. Even if it is "quite suspicious", they don't care. Ryukishi put this here for the lulz.

(Or they are lying when they say that they did read it and only looked on forums full of retards, so they can not know this said sentence)

Anyway it doesn't help a lot for the logic error, but to me even Kanonzo is better than Shkannontrice.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 14:52:13 2010 No.5369092 File: 404 KB, 638x475, foreshadowing2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I prefer Kanontrice over shkanontrice, it makes this scene so sinister.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 15:42:13 2010 No.5369441 Well, i think that Ryu supports Shkanontrice in the same way that half of /jp/ does. That is, as a means of trolling.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:11:13 2010 No.5370404

>>5368792
"Erika doesn't exist lol" is a theory mostly constructed by people who haven't read episode 6, so it's funny you suggest it. After episode 6, the people who actually read it, including the nips and those who can read nip here, exploded with support for Shkanontrice.

>>5368198
The idea that theories need a "point" is a pretty stupid one by people who aren't focused on finding the truth, but finding theories that are convenient for them and answer as much as they can. That said, Shkanontrice isn't a cheap trick to get around the red. Nor is Shkanon. Both theories make it harder to explain certain twilights, while people who don't believe it can wave their hands and point at easy solutions. The idea that it's created to get around red text clearly comes from the "I haven't read ep6" camp, because if you had read that, even if you disagreed strongly, you'd see exactly where they were coming from, because episode 6 is in love with Shkanontrice. That's not about the red, but the story itself.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:21:13 2010 No.5370447

>>5370404

You can't trust anything but the red, right?

In any case, there are times where the red text directly contradicts Shkanon. No, I don't care about personality switching whatever. It's stupid and anyone who can possibly believe in something like that is also stupid.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:23:13 2010 No.5370458 >>5370447 You see what I mean? How can anyone claim it's a theory to dance around red when we've got people like you?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:24:13 2010 No.5370465

>>5370404
>"Erika doesn't exist lol"
I'm glad, I hope people have truly given up on this beyond retarded point of reasoning. God when EP 5 came out the herp over this was beyond derp. I remember taking out screenshots to that proved it and still getting stubborn denial.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:39:13 2010 No.5370525 >>5370465 How is it any more retarded than Shkanon? Both theories rely on crazy fantasy elements.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:40:13 2010 No.5370534 There is no red that go against ShKanon actually. There is for Erika, see the head counting, etc...

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:50:13 2010 No.5370573

>>5370525
ShKanon relies on oddities that imply the two of them could actually be the same person. Like them never being seen together, Kanon's corpse never seen by Battler, Kanon being said to make footsteps lighter than rain in the puddles in one scene, be quiter than a cat in others, disappear when Gohda approaches Shannon and Kanon talking leaving only Shannon there, stuff like that. Erika not existing on the other hand would have you discard the majority of episode 5 and 6 in favor of only trusting the red. That's done conveniently because we no longer have an objective voice in the two episodes, since Battler is not the detective and Erika never narrates anything. There is red proving Erika's existence everywhere. There are theories on this to varying degrees of crazy, but in the end you're going to have to accept some DID for it to make sense. Erika has to be an alternate personality of someone suddenly developed in the 5th and 6th episodes and on top of that, Erika can't be the same person twice. Both gameboards in their entirety would suggest Erika exists, that's a pretty huge clunk of evidence to avert your eyes from. On the other hand, the existence of all these people who think Shannon are Kanon are two people is strong evidence to the contrary, but there is never any gameboard scene that confirms what should be obvious, and there are those hints here and there that cast doubt over it. With the narrative of episode 6, the duel in particular, Shkanontrice makes sense, but Erika not existing does not.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 18:51:13 2010 No.5370577

>>5370534
>There is no red against Shkanon.

Oh lol. Yes there is. There's plenty of it, most of it involving Kanon being dead and Shannon still being around, or both of them being considered separate people.

Try to create a working Shkanon theory NOT involving personalities-can-die-and-are-considered-normal people bullshit and you won't get very far.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:07:13 2010 No.5370640 >>5370573 Except that Battler and Beato's final red is what kills Erika. And there shouldn't be any way to do that unless she never existed.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:07:13 2010 No.5370643

>>5370525
>>5370534
Yeah as these two have stated, Erika not existing makes no sense and there's ironclad evidence she is real. Her not existing doesn't even really do very much for the story.

Shkannon mainly relies on the unfortunate but true fact that they are never in the same room together. Now a whole lot of other shit makes it seem impossible unless R07 pulls something convenient out of his ass, but Erika doesn't have a loophole like that.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:10:13 2010 No.5370669

>>5370640
Episode 6 was Erika's last game regardless of whether she won or lost. Bern also said she would only get one more chance. Erika losing is enough to "kill" the meta version of her alone. Also, Beato damages Meta Battler's existence in episode 4 by using red that seems to put him into question, but in reality is a trick about how he is not Asumu's son, but is Kinzo's grandson, and there was never a requirement of him being her son. It's not hard to imagine Erika would be fooled by a similar trick.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:11:13 2010 No.5370671 See it this way: What does Erika not existing bring to the narrative?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:12:13 2010 No.5370677 >>5370671 It's not good to look at things that way. Even if something might bring little to the narrative in your eyes, it doesn't mean it is false.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:18:13 2010 No.5370699

>>5370640
Red is truth but it isn't necessarily the whole truth. You can use the red to say insane things like Battler doesn't exist because he isn't Asumu's son. It's true that it isn't, but he still exists because of further truths like "he is his grandson."

Erika is a weird character because someone like her can only believably exist in a detective novel. Well, with infinite possibilities even something like this could happen in real life which is presumably how Bern can make it happen without bringing lol magic into the equation, but at this point figuring it out gets so confusing your brain will collapse.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:20:13 2010 No.5370714 >>5370699 >>Erika is a weird character because someone like her can only believably exist in a detective novel That's exactly what the games are you know, fictional detective stories.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:20:13 2010 No.5370716

>>5370677
Um, no. Accepting every hair-brained theory will make the whole thing MORE confusing and distract MORE from the real truth. Speculating over things that have no bearing on solving the mystery are just sophistry, intellectual masturbation to Erika's intellectual rape.

That is pretty much the opposite of how logical deductions work.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:22:13 2010 No.5370723 >>5370716 How much did Kinzo being dead solve?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:23:13 2010 No.5370729 >>5370699 >You can use the red to say insane things like Battler doesn't exist because he isn't Asumu's son. They never said that. Never once did they even imply Battler doesn't exist. Battler's own freaking out caused his existential failure.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:23:13 2010 No.5370730 >>5370714 Exactly, but since the whole game is a debate over whether it's a fantasy story or a mystery it's weird for her to randomly show up and be so overt about the genre.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:23:13 2010 No.5370732 Apparently, if you read Ep6, it proves BOTH theories, judging by what everyone here is saying. ...Why can't both Shkanon and Erika-Doesn't-Exist be true?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:24:13 2010 No.5370738 >>5370677 What you are saying is basically the same fucking shit as Erika did with Natsuhi in episode 5. Only trying to solve it in a mechanical way isn't good, you have to try to make sense of it too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:25:13 2010 No.5370739 >>5370732 If they're both true we're in person X territory again.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:25:13 2010 No.5370740 >>5370732 >>...Why can't both Shkanon and Erika-Doesn't-Exist be true? Because having one of them be real is already bad enough.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:25:13 2010 No.5370745 >>5370730 That's because R07 isn't a subtle writer.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:26:13 2010 No.5370749

>>5370729
>never once did they even imply Battler doesn't exist.
>Battler's own freaking out caused his existential failure.
Think about the logic here. They didn't imply he didn't exist, yet he was so confused over his existence he almost ceased to exist. So yes, they HEAVILY implied that. That was Beato's entire tactic.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:28:13 2010 No.5370761

>>5370723
A staggering number of inconsistencies?

The point was simply that to make the argument, for their to be any POINT to making the argument it should at least get further to the truth instead of just be a way of wacking off.

Rather than play this little game, you could list even one thing Erika's non-existance does to help solve Umineko to justify constructing a theory about her not existing.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:29:13 2010 No.5370767

>>5370749

No they didn't. Jesus. Nothing of what they said or implied, in red or white, brought Battler's existence into any kind of question. How could it? No matter who his mother is, he's sitting right there regardless.

What Beato tried to do was to get Battler to believe he wasn't "qualified to play the game". That's what they directly say in that scene.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:29:32 2010 No.5370764 [DELETED]

>>5370749
>>No they didn't. Jesus. Nothing of what they said or implied, in red or white, brought Battler's existence into any kind of question. How could it? No matter who his mother is, he's sitting right there regardless.

What Beato tried to do was to get Battler to believe he wasn't "qualified to play the game". That's what they directly say in that scene.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:30:13 2010 No.5370769 Witches use red truth to make the game harder and not the other way around. It's not the absolute truth.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:32:13 2010 No.5370774 >>5370739 EXACTLY. Anyone here remember the Pony Theory?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:33:13 2010 No.5370775

>>5370767

Though now that I think about it, it would be pretty interesting if Battler himself was fictional, some kind of a group imaginary friend between the kids. The entire story is imaginary people fighting each other in somebody's, probably Maria's, head.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:33:13 2010 No.5370776

>>5370769
Beato invented the red so she could further helping Battler find the truth but in her own convoluted and never straightforward manner. The trust you have in the red is the same Battler has in Beato, the same a player has to a GM, the same the reader has to the author. The trust in the red is like "love" in the games. It's absolute truth.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:33:13 2010 No.5370781

The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside.

The brain is deeper than the sea,
For, hold them, blue to blue,
The one the other will absorb,
As sponges, buckets do.

The brain is just the weight of God,
For, lift them, pound for pound,
And they will differ, if they do,
As syllable from sound.

This poem holds the truth of Umineko.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:34:13 2010 No.5370783 >>5370775 Most likely Sayo actually. And yes this is the answer of Umineko, good job finding it out.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:34:13 2010 No.5370784
File: 247 KB, 638x476, pimpin.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

When it comes down to it, Shkanon has always had one major problem. That is the Jessica paradox.

While you can justify the parents not knowing about Shkanon due to their own deep involvement in other affairs, and while you can make the case the servants are in on the affair(minus Gohda, poor sap), Jessica is where suspension of disbelief starts to evaporate.

There are two possibilities with Jessica and Shkanon. Either she knows, or she doesn't.

Her not knowing is completely illogical. Unlike the whole Kinzo is dead thing, which shows that Krauss went out of his way to hide Kinzo's death from Jessica using a variety of tricks for over a year, thus stretching but not quite breaking suspension of disbelief, Jessica not knowing of Shkanon destroys things established previously.

For one, Shannon and Kanon are both shown to be extremely close to Jessica. Shannon as her best friend, and Kanon as her love interest. Futhermore, they both have spent THREE years fulfilling the various roles with her. And unlike with Kinzo's death, there is nothing to indicate anyone tried to trick Jessica into "knowing" that the two were two different people. Perhaps if Kanon was a servant who was hired the week before, or if Jessica only had a close relationship with one of them, you could make the case, but as things stand, it is logically impossible for her to be ignorant of the situation barring insanity.

Which brings me to my other point. It is also impossible for Jessica to know that they are the same person. The whole time, Jessica's been portrayed as one of, if not THE, most heroic figures on the island. Altruistic, emotional, and defiant, she simply isn't the type who would not inform people on the island to as big of a game changer as Shannon and Kanon being one and the same. Perhaps if she was a mustache twirling villain, but as things stand, it really goes quite against her character to not inform people of a such a thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:35:13 2010 No.5370786 >>5370769 The red is necessary for there to be a game at all. Without it, the player could outright deny everything that he sees, not needing to prove anything.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:35:13 2010 No.5370787
File: 55 KB, 848x480, notasplanned.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5370784
Which is why I think there has to be more to this. Looking at Jessica, we see it would be completely against her character to not know that Shannon and Kanon, the two people she is closest with on the whole island, are the same person, and yet, we see that if she DID know, well, wouldn't she tell the others as soon as one died and the other stayed around?

No matter which of the two choices the paradox you choose, there are errors so large when it comes to characterization that it just boggles the mind.

Of course, there could be more to this. Perhaps Jessica does know and has legitmate moral reasons for not saying, but such a situation would be largely contrived, wouldn't it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:35:13 2010 No.5370788 >>5370775 I HAVE noticed that the only person who ever refers to Battler before his return in 1986 is Kinzo, and he's dead. >>5370776 Without the red, the truth cannot be seen?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:35:13 2010 No.5370789

>>5370774
Battler solves the mystery in episode 5 by looking at all the Knox rules and then going through the game again. Before that he also looked at the problem of the epitaph murders and reached a conclusion about why Beato was doing it.

And that was that killing everyone in that ritualistic manner and stopping if the gold is found and presenting that to Battler somehow has some worth, but not worth in making him scared or being revenge. But that aside since it's irrelevant here.

One of the first things Battler assumes in this process is that there definitely isn't a person X, and he should have thought that from the start.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:37:13 2010 No.5370796 I agree with OP.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:39:13 2010 No.5370805

>>5370784
>>5370787
Trying to form logical argument based on how the characters are portrayed will have you saying nobody on the island can be a murderer in the end. No matter who it is, nobody is characterized to be a cold blooded killer who can slaughter everyone in such brutal ways and avoid being caught. Unless you're one of those guys who want Rosa and Kyrie to be the culprits and can make a case about how ruthless they are. At least one person's characterization or is a lie in a way. It's just characterization of that character pretending to be a certain way.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:40:13 2010 No.5370807 File: 239 KB, 655x1092, lolbattler.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5370789 From the very beginning, Battler was told there was no culprit X.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:40:13 2010 No.5370808 >>5370789 But would Beatrice being a separate existence count as Person X? Why does the woman Battler meets in Ep4 look EXACTLY like the woman in the portrait?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:41:13 2010 No.5370813 >>5370805 Well, I don't think Jessica is the killer, if that is what you are saying or not saying. I do think that Jessica is a rather large problem associated with Shkanon that needs to be addressed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:41:13 2010 No.5370817 >>5370805 Or it's just a case of DID.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:44:13 2010 No.5370825
File: 749 KB, 1271x955, sayostruth.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Sayo's view on the truth is the same as Beato's view on the truth. If you actually believe it, it's true. It's not Shannon who George is in love with and it's not Shannon he dates. He dates Sayo. Like Maria has her soft toy furniture and rabbit figure furniture, Shannon has three pieces of furniture. They are furniture in that they don't really exist, but they can exist to her if she believes they do. They are Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, and she acts the roles of each of them just like Maria acts as Sakutarou.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:49:13 2010 No.5370842 >>5370776 Red is a part of witches games far longer than Beato existed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:50:13 2010 No.5370844 >>5370807 ......That's some sage advice. Pity Battler didn't, you know, follow it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:51:13 2010 No.5370847 File: 895 KB, 1267x948, world.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Alluding to the "two people can create a world" situation with Maria and Beatrice in episode 4.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:51:13 2010 No.5370850 >>5370825 Explain why Kanon has a human name as well, then. If what you say is true, then there should only be one real name, "Sayo". However, there are two: "Sayo" and "Yoshiya".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:52:13 2010 No.5370857 >>5370850 Because Kinzo decided to go along with Sayo's roleplaying antics for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:53:13 2010 No.5370864 >>5370850 If I may.... Sayo is indeed what we call the DID meido, because calling her Shkanontrice gets old after a while and because she seems to be female. Her true name could be Cold on the Cob, for all we know.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:53:13 2010 No.5370866

>>5370850
Kanon having a "real" name is just an extension of his character. Sayo probably didn't even really think of a real name for Kanon until Jessica wanted to know. While Sayo is actually the name of the person who created the three furniture, to the outside world, Sayo is Shannon's real name and Shannon had a life outside Rokkenjima as Sayo. The same should be true for Kanon so it's only natural that he has his own "real" name.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:55:13 2010 No.5370877 >Shkannontrice theory bullshit NO GET THE FUCK OUT

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:56:13 2010 No.5370883 File: 64 KB, 640x480, furniture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5370877 u mad?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 19:57:13 2010 No.5370896

>>5370784
>>5370787
Well said, and you would not believe the struggle this caused two months ago. Day in and day out, merely posting an image of Jessica would devolve the thread into a shitstorm. We've more or less tabled that for now, as we don't get anywhere by discussing it.

I still believe in the wonderful Doubletrice theory myself.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:02:13 2010 No.5370921

The whole purpose of the episode 4 Ange story is to elaborate on magic and furniture. Of course there aren't 7 stakes girls magically floating around Ange, they're just her imaginary friends of "furniture". They are people she imagines are in the world around her, creating her own truth, and that's part of magic. The 7 stakes couldn't kill when Ange wanted them to specifically for the reason that Ange was not prepared to kill. If she herself can't kill, then she can't have her imaginary friends kill since her imaginary friends only exist through her. This also relates to situations where Beatrice is seen by Shannon smacking Natsuhi over the head with a pipe. It also relates to an episode 3 scene where Genji calls out to Ronove. It is said in the narrative that Shannon and Kanon both couldn't imagine he was there, but once Genji called out to him, he appeared and started talking to him. This is Genji calling his own furniture.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:03:13 2010 No.5370930 >>5370921 So basically it's just a bunch of ronery servants playing a game of pretend? cool theory bro.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:06:13 2010 No.5370944
File: 278 KB, 640x480, obvious.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

One thing about Battler that can get a bit annoying: He refuses to suspect any of his family members, which has led him to make interpretations of their behavior that simply aren't true.

Pic related.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:06:13 2010 No.5370946 >>5370930 Sad but it's what the whole fucking story has been building up to. Blame R07

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:06:13 2010 No.5370950 >>5370825 So Sayo was able to convince herself of it so thoroughly that the three "furniture" developed independent existences within Sayo's mind?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:07:13 2010 No.5370956 >>5370944 Jessica's not the culprit. She's, well, she's SOMETHING, but a culprit? Hardly. She's one of the only people left who still cares about respecting human life on the island.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:09:13 2010 No.5370966 File: 675 KB, 659x2850, boyftalk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5370944 And because of the way Battler misinterprets things, we can't take for granted that this is really talking about Kanon.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:10:13 2010 No.5370970 >>5370956 I'm aware of this. I just used Jessica because she has those creepy eyes. You could replace her with any suspicious family member and it'd still be an accurate assessment of how Battler thinks.

>>	Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 20:11:13 2010 No.5370980 >>5370970 Eva also has creepy eyes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:11:13 2010 No.5370982 >>5370966 Jessica loves Battler... like a BROTHER~.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:12:13 2010 No.5370985 >>5370966 Yup. Also, has anyone else listened to Jessica's character song? Some of the lyrics are... quite interesting.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:12:13 2010 No.5370988

>>5370950
Not by herself. It's very hard to convince yourself of it. You need two to create a world, Sayo had more than two. Maria helped her create the world, so did Genji and Kumasawa. Kinzo also relates to this. First, Kinzo had the original Beatrice, and when she died, he turned to what was most likely her daughter to fill the void. She tried to raise this Beatrice to be the Beatrice he knew, but she acted nothing like her. Rosa killed this Beatrice. Kinzo tried another method next. First it's important to know that Kinzo is not a naturally gifted magician. He's the opposite of one. That means that he finds it very hard to perform magic. It means he has a very logical and realistic mind, and that led him to success in the real world. Now, Kinzo's next method was to hire someone who would be good at acting the part. That is Sayo. Sayo creates Beatrice and tries to convince Kinzo that she is the real thing. At one point we see Kinzo despairing that he can't see her, but Beatrice is right behind him saying he just can't see her because his toxin is too high. Anti-magic toxin is disbelief, the opposite of trust. Kinzo's mind of too logical, he just can't convince himself that Sayo is really Beatrice no matter how well she performs the part, he knows it's all pretend. So he was never able to revive Beatrice before he died.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:14:13 2010 No.5371001 File: 428 KB, 646x507, explain.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What the hell is Eva talking about here? Only grandson to carry father's blood?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:15:13 2010 No.5371008 File: 285 KB, 640x480, stillobvious.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5370980 You're right.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:15:13 2010 No.5371014
File: 30 KB, 704x396, george.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5370956
>>5370988
>Kinzo is logical and realistic
>answer to Umineko is that he planted a gigantic bomb underneath his island, and has his ninja maid kill everyone
>catchphrase of his kids is I WOULDN'T PUT IT PAST FATHER
Kinzo is many things, but logical and realistic are not part of him in the slightest.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:17:13 2010 No.5371024 >>5371001 Yeah, that's what got me thinking Battler doesn't exist in the first place.

>>	Broseph Stalin, Leader of the Doubletrice Revolution Sun Jun 13 20:17:13 2010 No.5371025 >>5370985 Now is not our time, comrade. For now, we wait.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:17:13 2010 No.5371027

>>5371001
Kinzo has two grandchildren. This is two years ago in a flashback right? So we have two options.
1. Eva being as family-obsessed as she is, has at that point decided Battler doesn't count anymore since he's abandoned the family, George is the only grandson left.
2. Eva thinks that Battler does not have Kinzo's blood in him. Maybe she knows about the situation relating to Battler's birth and it actually makes Kinzo his legal grandfather but not grandfather by blood. Or maybe he is his grandson by blood, but Eva thinks he isn't because of the vagueness of the birth. I think it's unlikely she knows though.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:19:13 2010 No.5371039

>>5371014
Everyone always says stuff like "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", but where is the real evidence that he isn't logical and realistic? That phrase supports the notion, but it doesn't show where the notion came from. I think it comes from his obsession with Beatrice and magic. He may be a very logical person at the core, but Beatrice dying caused him to do very illogical things to try and get her back.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:20:13 2010 No.5371042 >>5371001 Just Eva being haughty. Battler is incompetent, George is not.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:26:13 2010 No.5371074
File: 509 KB, 1406x814, kinzomagic.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Just a little evidence for it. I think Kinzo being a powerful summoner but a weak practitioner of his own magic means he can't perform what's needed for magic well himself, but he can easily fetch people who can, with his influence. He can physically fetch people who are very good at it, while Beatrice's summoning power would be based off just creating new furniture.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:39:13 2010 No.5371124 Next order of business. The second Battler - Alive, Dead, never existed in the first place, and who?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:45:13 2010 No.5371147

>I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.

This basically comes from Kinzo's legendary will power and ability to achieve amazing things. It does not mean he is crazy or illogical. Realize that in almost every Kinzo scene we see he is usually dead at the time. Therefore we cannot use that information to get an idea of the real Ushiromiya Kinzo.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:57:13 2010 No.5371195

>>5371124
Probably dead. During Beato's meltdown, she just wanted an excuse to get out of the game because she couldn't take it anymore...but it doesn't necessarily mean that another Battler is alive.

At least that's what Kyrie stated during her "duel" with Leviathan. I'm under the impression that both she and Asumu planned to name their babies Battler, and one of them had a stillbirth. Rudolf came in and made a switch for some reason. I don't think it had any connection to the adopted baby Natsuhi had.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 20:57:13 2010 No.5371196

>>5370761
Let's see.
1. It restores logical consistency to the EP5 and EP6 gameboards by eliminating bullshit Erika motives.
2. It makes Battler fuckwin awesome in EP6 and ties into the narrative of him taking on a big risk to revive Beatrice.
3. Since it makes Erika a facade for the culprit in EP6, a large number of pieces are eliminated as suspects, including Kanon.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:03:13 2010 No.5371215 >>5371195 Hm. Red text shoots down the still birth theory. >Ushiromiya Battler was BORN from Ushiromiya Asumu. If it twas a still-birth, it ain't a birth. Futhermore, how the fudge would Meta-Beatrice know about it?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:03:13 2010 No.5371217

>>5371196
You mean:
1 - Restores "logical consistency" by saying "lol that never happened" to the entirely of two episodes, so no difficult questions are left behind.
2 - It makes Battler who knows what in episode 6 because nothing actually happened the way it was shown.
3 - Since the entirely of episodes 5 and 6 didn't happen how they were shown, it eliminates plenty of evidence, and makes the mystery harder to solve.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:04:13 2010 No.5371224 >>5371215 >if it twas a still-birth, it ain't a birth That's your own interpretation. Since it can be called a "still-birth", a type of birth, why can't it be said in red?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:08:13 2010 No.5371242 >>5371215 No clue about meta-Beatrice, unless she managed to overhear something Asumu said...which still doesn't make sense to me. But a red doesn't cut that down.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:08:13 2010 No.5371243

>>5371224
Quite simple, "born" means to pass through a birth canal- Alive.

A still birth is not the same thing as a birth. We don't say a baby is born when it is already dead.

Oh, and the second half of my argument, the relevance. Why the fuck would Meta-Beatrice know about a still-born baby?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:10:13 2010 No.5371250

>>5371217
The only parts of EP5 and EP6 that have to be reinterpreted for the purposes of solving the mystery are the ones that Erika actually took an important action in. And luckily, we have enormous webs of red truth constraining all of those scenes, isn't that convenient?

As for Battler, we saw all of the things he said and did to set up his master plan. Do you think he should have revealed everything in a huge monologue so you wouldn't have to think about it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:10:13 2010 No.5371255 >>5371243 Because Rudolf talks about it the night before he dies.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:10:13 2010 No.5371256 >>5371243 You're taking the word born to literally, lol.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:11:13 2010 No.5371259 >>5371256 *too

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:12:13 2010 No.5371265

>>5371243
Episodes 3-6 are written by someone who isn't the original author but says they reached the truth. Presumably, through extensive research. Beato is a character within this work who is a construction of the rules and the truth. So naturally she'd know.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:13:13 2010 No.5371277 >>5371243 >Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!! Quite literally, you can't really be a person if you don't exist.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:15:13 2010 No.5371294 >>5371277 This can be reconciled with the person limit easily by pointing out that human corpses are still humans.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:18:13 2010 No.5371318

>>5371294
>The duct tape seals aren't limited to a number of uses, right? It's the number of rooms. ...The only limitation is the three room limit. ...Erika chose this guest room as one of those three. So in this room, she has the right to seal as many places and as many times as she wants.
>All names refer only to the actual people!
>Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.
Erika is a person.

Mirrored !EhE8ram93U Sun Jun 13 21:19:13 2010 No.5371320

Some commentary.

Calling someone "evil" misses the core of the story and is not very productive.

Umineko is a story about a group of people that are trapped in a tragedy that exists because of lies.

The lie about Kinzo's death, the lies about Battler's birth, Natsuhi being forced to pretend a child (Battler?) was hers, Krauss's lies about his business, everyones lies about their finances-- all of these lies made the game-board possible, and I think its reasonable to say that there are still a few more really big lies that provide the motive.

For example, we have had the theme of an inappropriate sexual relationship between Kinzo and a Beatrice look-alike mentioned a few times. There have always been overtones of it early, "Beatrice" the human on the island talks about how Kinzo used her sexually, and in the EP5 trial again we have Kinzo being accused of an improper sexual relationship.

I think that goes to the core of the story, that either Shannon or Jessica or Both were used sexually by Kinzo and that those at the mansion allowed it to happen without interfering.

Calling any of the characters evil misses the point that they are human beings with problems and that the murders were done by someone who has probably suffered a great tragedy (like a lifetime of abuse).

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:22:13 2010 No.5371341 >>5371318 But the actual person "Erika" refers to is a meta character, isn't she?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:23:13 2010 No.5371345 Back to topic: How is Bern the evil one when Beatrice is responsible for setting up the whole situation in the first place?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:24:13 2010 No.5371357

>>5371341
>Erika repaired the chain lock.
>Erika "sealed" the room by connecting the sections of the severed chain using her duct tape. In short, she used the seals to repair the chain, and used that to make a closed room again from the inside.
Are you saying the red is just being used to refer to actions happening in the meta-world, by a meta-entity?

Mirrored !EhE8ram93U Sun Jun 13 21:27:13 2010 No.5371374

As for the child from 19 years ago.

It could very well be Battler. Rudolf cheats on his wife and gets both Kyrie and his wife Pregnant. He agrees to take care of Kyrie's son, he asks his Father for help.

Kinzo, since he only cares about male parentage, suggests that they give the baby to Natsuhi to raise as hers, without telling her its Rudolph's son, Battler.

After the accident, the plan is aborted and Rudolph is forced to raise the child himself, at this point either the other baby was dead, or was switched.

This neatly wraps up both the weird circumstances of Battler's birth, the existence of two Battler's, and the identity of the child from 19 years ago.

Kyrie may also not have known that Battler was her son. She may have been lied to and told that her son died when the servant fell. This provides motive for her to help with murders.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:28:13 2010 No.5371379

>>5371357
No, I'm saying that we've already had examples where a piece's actions were attributed in red to the meta entity controlling them. This is just a natural continuation.

Some of the red about Erika in EP6 actually does refer to the meta world, though. For instance, the red about her being allowed to seal three rooms.

Bern !FAGetWqs1I Sun Jun 13 21:31:13 2010 No.5371392

>>5371345

Beatrice has been enslaved by Lambda to set up the game, if the EP2 ??? is anything to go by. Bern and Lambda are evil because they're treating the serious event as a game, while Beato is using their game to find a way out and get Battler his happy ending. She's not responsible, and she wants him to escape the trap.

Bern and Lambda are more amoral than anything, but Bern taking pleasure in her own acts of sadism makes her out to be cruel/evil/sexy. Lambda seems to have fun doing whatever, but Bern has made it clear that she isn't having fun unless people suffer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:33:13 2010 No.5371414 >>5371374 The only problem I can find is that for 18 years, Kyrie has been like this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:34:13 2010 No.5371419 Isn't it obvious? The way to solve this game is simple for Battler. Just kill everyone. Grab a gun, start killing everyone on the island. Then the mystery will be solved, He was the one who murdered everyone.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:35:13 2010 No.5371438
File: 275 KB, 640x481, 19 years.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5371374
I don't think the child from 19 years ago is alive at all.

We have two events:
One, Natsuhi says a servant holding a baby fell of a cliff 19 years ago. The baby was supposed to be given to her. When she confronts Kinzo about the baby, he laughs and says something about an empty cage, or something along those lines. It really implies he's talking about Beatrice. Natsuhi says Rosa was still living on the island at the time, but that she was away with friends.
One, Rosa, 19 years ago, led a girl called to the edge of a cliff and she fell off. Rosa did not see a baby.
Also note that in And Then There Were None, a pregnant maid (servant) named Beatrice dies in this manner. With these things considered I really don't think two separate people fell of a cliff 19 years ago.

So here's what I think happened: Natsuhi was told that a servant/ward girl was pregnant, this is the same girl Kinzo was raising in secret. She was told that the baby was going to be given to her and raised as her own. Natsuhi wishes the girl would die, and she does. Kinzo finds out about the one he tried to mold into Beatrice dying, and doesn't care about the empty shell of a human left behind.

Over time, Natsuhi's memory of the event changes due to guilt. Instead of the baby being unborn, she gives her guilt more gravity by thinking the baby was already born. At the end of episode 5 she goes even further, saying that she was the one who pushed her off the cliff.

So the baby would be dead.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:38:13 2010 No.5371455

>>5371419
In that case, he hasn't solved why everyone must die during those two days of the typhoon. He killed everyone to make it easier for himself, but he doesn't understand where the desire to kill them truly stems from - it stems from an inevitability of them all dying, but he doesn't understand why they all have to die and who would otherwise kill them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:46:13 2010 No.5371497 >>5371438 Haha, Natsuhi is similar to Emily Brent in some ways too. At least in her sense of pride.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:50:13 2010 No.5371511 >>5371497 And that the guilt haunts her. It might be a bit too obvious though if it compares so easily to that situation, unless the whole man from 19 years ago doesn't really matter to the story.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:56:13 2010 No.5371536 >>5371511 She's wasn't really guilty about it, though. Unlike Natsuhi who takes it upon herself.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 21:57:13 2010 No.5371542

>>5371536
Originally, Natsuhi wouldn't admit to anything either, and her guilt about it grows over the course of episode 5. I think it was said that her headaches started from that day, so it was constantly in the back of her mind even if she wouldn't acknowledge it. It was a subconscious thing, that fits Emily Brent.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:00:13 2010 No.5371556

With the second Battler thing, I think two red texts get ignored.

Mainly:

>Battler Ushiromiya is not Asumu Ushiromiya's son
And
>Battler is not Asumu's son

This, combined with the fact that Battler is indeed the child of Asumu, seems confusing at first, but I present to you a quite simple solution.

Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's daughter.

And I think that that daughter may very well be Jessica.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:07:13 2010 No.5371608

>>5371556
Here's something I think people overlook, similar to that:
Whenever it's implied Erika counts as one body in episode 6, there's another explanation that makes sense with what he know so far.
>Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.
You'd think this means one body left and two entered. But if Erika doesn't exist, and there are still three people, which one can count as two? Battler.
>I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
'You' = 0, Kanon = 1, Battler = 2

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:07:13 2010 No.5371614 >>5371556 The Jessica's Mother's Day Present extra tip would like to have a word with you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:08:13 2010 No.5371617 >>5371556 I don't know. I think Jessica has another role to play in this pointless tragedy. Or perhaps not, perhaps you're right.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:10:13 2010 No.5371634 >>5371614 Mind posting it? And I'm not saying the relationship betwen the two is a lie, cause it ain't, but Jessica's origin might not be Natsuhi.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:12:13 2010 No.5371656 >>5371634 http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/Jessica%27s_Mother%27s_Day_Present I mention it because there's a scene with Krauss and Natsuhi holding a newborn Jessica and talking about what parts of themselves she might have inherited.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:14:13 2010 No.5371670 >>5371318 Erika is a title.

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:18:13 2010 No.5371703

>>5371656
Hm, I see what you mean:

>There was the figure of Natsuhi, embracing the newborn Jessica.
That was the scene where the contract was made.
>"Ah, what a darling daughter. She definitely looks just like you, and she'll grow up to be a beautiful girl!"
>"Wouldn't that be nice? But because I get headaches, I worry that she will inherit them..."
>While cuddling the baby Jessica, Krauss and Natsuhi pleaded.
>"Oh, please, God. Please bless our very own daughter that you've finally granted us. I'm sure that she will also suffer from headaches, won't she? No, just like me, from the very core she'll be wrapped in trouble, and the stars of misfortune will take a liking to her. >Please grant this child a healthy, beautiful fate. I will take all of Jessica's headaches and misfortune upon myself..."
>Perhaps even in Natsuhi's blood, she was communicating with a noble person who transcended humanity.
>Natsuhi's wish, before she'd even realized it...seemed to have become a contract with a higher power.

Sweet, but by no means conclusive or anything. Actually wait a minute....

>Natsuhi's wish, before she'd even realized it...seemed to have become a contract with a higher power.
>Perhaps even in Natsuhi's blood, she was communicating with a noble person who transcended humanity.

FEATHERINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:21:13 2010 No.5371722

>>5371656
Ah, that reminds me.

I wonder how many people noticed that Beato received hints about solving the logic error from Zepar and Furfur, who are furniture specially created and moved by Battler? In other words, for them to even know a solution existed, Battler must have planned it out beforehand, right?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:23:13 2010 No.5371733 This thread needs more desire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEOy4zEVFoU

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:25:13 2010 No.5371749 >>5371703 Oh you cheeky motherfucker. Well spotted, I suppose, but what you're trying to say only is a BRICKS SHAT moment if AuAu is Asumu.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:25:13 2010 No.5371750 File: 42 KB, 245x271, 1263054325623.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Bernkastel isn't evil, she's merely trying to win a game. That... was epic, OP. Well done.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:28:13 2010 No.5371762 >>5371722 Yep, it was mentioned a few times before that Battler had this deliberately done to help Moetrice regain her memories, hoping that a miracle would occur in doing so.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:28:13 2010 No.5371763 >>5371749 I thought we'd already decided that that was the case.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:28:13 2010 No.5371764 File: 47 KB, 704x480, higurashi2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5371749 Hanyuu confirmed for mother of the year all years?

Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:30:13 2010 No.5371775

>>5371722
How about this. Battler knew how to solve the logic error, but he was at a loss as to how to solve it without revealing too much of Beato's heart. Furfur and Zepar hint at it to Beato in the hopes that she can pull of something that turns the situation around. Battler couldn't think of how to do that, perhaps because of his nature. But the previous Beato would have been good at that sort of thing, and when Beato is reawakened by learning the truth, she's able to do that again. She uses a solution that Battler knew, but she takes the initiative and forces it to be a situation that Erika has to solve rather than a logic error she has to explain.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:30:13 2010 No.5371776 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgoBusyztyw Rika isn't evil, she's merely trying to help satoko.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:32:13 2010 No.5371790 File: 48 KB, 496x889, ohshit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5371703 I fucking hate you right now. Goddamn it, remember when we thought Jessica was either Beatrice, or just a girl?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:36:13 2010 No.5371803 >>5371790 Oh please. Jessica being a delusional murderer? That's ridiculous. Jessica being the daughter of one ridiculously horny man and Hanyuu, now we're talking.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 22:40:13 2010 No.5371833 >>5371776 She's giving Satoko an AA - An attitude adjustment. >>5371703 DAW. Why do such bad things have to happen to these people.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 23:07:13 2010 No.5371932 File: 41 KB, 435x396, 1248735700081.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] superior

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 13 23:14:13 2010 No.5371969 >>5371703 In retrospect, I'm hardly surprised. This is a rather specific TIP. It's somewhat heartwarming, though. Asumu helping out her child, even though it's a pathetic mortal.

Mirrored !EhE8ram93U Mon Jun 14 02:13:13 2010 No.5373081

>>5371833
Because they have all lied to each other.

That's really where everything comes from. This whole horrible situation wouldn't have existed if they had just been honest with each other. But they put off doing what was hard and they lied and continued to lie until ALL OPTIONS became tragic.

My prediction is that the real ending is going to be very bitter sweet because the truth is going to be painful.

I almost think that the last game could just be Episode 5 resumed. Natsuhi Confesses. Rudolf Confesses. Battler Confesses his sin. The Culprit confesses her motive. Everyone is honest and no one dies except "Beatrice" who does not exist in a world of honesty.

Anonymous Mon Jun 14 04:47:13 2010 No.5373984

>>5371438
>Also note that in And Then There Were None, a pregnant maid (servant) named Beatrice dies in this manner.
In And Then There Were None she committed suicide. She threw herself into a river and drowned.

>>5371542
It was only said that:
>.........That day...marked the beginning of 19 long, headache-filled years......
It can mean anything. And in the TIP we can see that her headaches can be genetic: >>5371656

Reply to thread

Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Action

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]