/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Umineko general

What is Battler's sin?

[Anonymous No.]

Being dense?

[Anonymous No.]

He didn't eat your poop.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Pride.

[Anonymous No.]

Being unreliable.

[Anonymous No.]

Jessica

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243846

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Not caring about his family during the past years. If he had cared about it, he would have seen the internal struggle it was facing and would have prevented the Rokkenjima massacre.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243867
Oh!! Thats good.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243859
That mansion emits lv 3 brilliance aura.

I mean, the setting has already served 2 best freaking mind-fucks dramas ever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243867
What it has to do with 'promise'?

[Anonymous No.]

Putting <see you again> aside, it'd be sorta messed up if it's something else he said in English and he didn't realize the meaning..

But I like this resply:
>>5243867

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243836

Now now my dear Anon
The answer you desire is actually quite obvious
Here, allow me to recite a few lines in red:

>>>/rs/Battler_committed_a_sin_6_years_ago
>>>/rs/Ange_was_born_6_years_ago

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245290
No relation. Think about it for a moment and you will see why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245290
I love this theory.

[Anonymous No.]

Ok so most people think a sin is the motive, the sin was commited six years ago.
Who had fuck all to do with Battler six years ago.
Gohda, Kanon & Kyrie, it's odd these people were not involved isn't?

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>5243836
Babyfuck. Why do you think Ange is messed up?

[Anonymous No.]

I don't believe 12 year olds have fetishes for babies.

And Beatrice kinda hates Ange.

[Anonymous No.]

Battler maybe the reason this Beatrice was "born".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245362
Where was it stated that Beatrice hates Ange?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245371
I don't think it was stated, but for some unknown reason, Beatrice originally did not want Ange to join the Mariage Sorcière. Ange had a fallout with Maria, and later felt that she was one of the causes for the disaster.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245387
I don't think it was an unknown reason. Beatrice didn't want Ange to join because she's awkward and almost introverted. She wanted to keep it her and Maria's little club. She didn't trust Ange, but that didn't mean she ever hated her.

[Anonymous No.]

He forgot to love the Teapot.

[Anonymous No.]

He forgot the greatest collection of memorabilia he acquired in America.

NEVER EVER FORGET

[Anonymous No.]

Being incompetent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245290
This is now my most favorite theory

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245290

Can a 12 year old impregnate?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5246758
Yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243836

He ate everybody's desert before Kinzo's birthday bash.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5245402
>awkward and almost introverted
How do you know what 6yo Ange was like? And later she had her reasons for being "awkward".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248583
I';m talking about Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

Whatever the sin is, it's a promise, and Beatrice cares about it deeply. Since Beatrice didn't exist for Battler 6 years ago, it was probably against Beatrice's "mother" (in episode 6, we find out this is most likely Shannon, at least, it's not Jessica).

The pony theory's interpretation of the promise still makes sense, it could simply be him being unable to keep up a relationship he had with Shannon, thus causing Beatrice to be created, thus causing Beatrice to suffer for 6 (or 1000) years, thus causing the tragedy in some way.

See next post for some evidence.

[Anonymous No.]

...Beatrice.
Listen carefully.
I will turn over my love for Battler to you.
Become the woman Battler desires.

I will give you the blonde hair he desires.
I will give you the blue eyes he desires.
I will give you the new personality he desires.
And... In place of me, love him.
And if possible, be loved by him.

I can no longer love him.
The feelings I could not obtain...the feelings I could not bear...please obtain them.

From this day forward, you are no longer the phantom of Rokkenjima who only plays tricks.
From this day forward, you are the ruler of Rokkenjima, and the one who waits for him to return until he fulfills his promise.

From this day forward, you will inherit that in my place.
Thus, from this day forward, you are no longer me.

I will push all of my suffering on to you... Please forgive me for being the only one to become happy.

From this day forward, you have the qualifications to detest everything.
You are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And someday.
Destroy everything, revive everything.
...Bless all lovers.

At that time.
...For both you and I to find happiness together...I will be wishing for from the bottom of my heart.

From this day on, you are not me.
From this day on, I am not you.
We will divide one soul, and share.
That naturally won't fill up one soul, but. (? not 100% sure about this line)
Surely it will allow (us/you/me? no subject defined) to see more dreams than a person.
May we be blessed...
My cute Beatrice...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248767
The only things I never liked about this monologue is that it clashes with two or three other points:
- Virgilia teaching a young Beatrice to learn magic (Given that it wasn't 1967's Beatrice as her apprentice)
- The Beatrice that Kanon and Shannon interact with a majority of the time. (Assuming it's the one from the legend.)
- And the Beatrice Maria had as a master.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248856
I don't see how it clashes with the latter two.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248767
Which one of the two says that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248948
We don't even know. .It could be a fucking troll from Ryukishi, he would have got everyone.
Anyway, to me, it is not necessarily linked with Battler's sin.
Another funny fact is that in ep6, Kanon and Shannon are talking about
"Because of father's sin, everybody die. And come back to life." or something like that. Yeah, both of them. So if they are not talking about Battler, who the hell could they be talking about, and if they are talking about Battler, why the hell would Shannon (or Kanon, depending of your point of view) call Battler "Father"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248948
Which one of the two says that?
>> Anonymous 05/30/10(Sun)06:21 No.5249414
>>5248948
We don't even know. By the way we don't even know of it is one of them who says that, it only sound logical.It could be a fucking troll from Ryukishi, he would have got everyone.

For the context, it is a monologue who shows up when Beatrice "dies" (with Kanon in the same time) because Shannon won their duel.

Anyway, to me, it is not necessarily linked with Battler's sin.

Another funny fact is that in ep6, Kanon and Shannon say something like "Because of father's sin, everybody die. And come back to life.". or something like that, It has been a while since I read it.
Yeah, both of them. So if they are not talking about Battler, who the hell could they be talking about, and if they are talking about Battler, why the hell would Shannon (or Kanon, depending of your point of view) call Battler "Father"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248948
We don't even know. By the way we don't even know of it is one of them who says that, it only sound logical.It could be a fucking troll from Ryukishi, he would have got everyone.

For the context, it is a monologue who shows up when Beatrice "dies" (with Kanon in the same time) because Shannon won their duel.

Anyway, to me, it is not necessarily linked with Battler's sin.

Another funny fact is that in ep6, Kanon and Shannon say something like "Because of father's sin, everybody die. And come back to life.". or something like that, It has been a while since I read it.
Yeah, both of them. So if they are not talking about Battler, who the hell could they be talking about, and if they are talking about Battler, why the hell would Shannon (or Kanon, depending of your point of view) call Battler "Father"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248869
Their time of appearance is what's throwing me off. But..it was never made clear exactly when Maria stated playing with Beatrice, right? Shannon/Kanon's Beatrice showed up sometime after Shannon fell under the blaze of Eva's intimidation regarding George's love interest.

>>5249437
>Another funny fact is that in ep6, Kanon and Shannon say something like "Because of father's sin, everybody die. And come back to life.". or something like that, It has been a while since I read it.
Yeah, both of them. So if they are not talking about Battler, who the hell could they be talking about, and if they are talking about Battler, why the hell would Shannon (or Kanon, depending of your point of view) call Battler "Father"?

I got the impression that they were referring to Kinzo, as they're often referred to as his furniture, if that excerpt isn't to be taken literally...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5249437
Originally, Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice were one personality.

There was a catalyst that made them two, and then even three people, and that catalyst was initially Battler. That makes him the "father." The "mother" is the original personality they were when all three were one.

>>5248948
This is in a flashback when Beatrice recalls her "mother." We're seeing Battler converse with someone through that someone's viewpoint, and he's describing what kind of girl he would like. He mentions blonde and busty, and glamorous, and stuff like that. He also mentions Jessica's personality, he refers to Jessica in the third person. This strongly implies the person he is talking to is not Jessica.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5249624
In any case, Shannon existed the whole time and there's no way Battler can be her father, no matter how many personalities you want to assign to her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5249859
Well, he meant that there is a "mother" personnality for all of them, and Battler did something to this "mother", and it created everyone and the original one "disappeared".

but then it leave us with some problems.
The only way I could use to explain Shkanon with this monologue would be to say that Kanon have been "separated" because of Jessica, Shannon "separated" because of George, and Beato "separated" because of Battler.
but in this case, Kanon would call Jessica "mother". Not Battler.

If it is not because of the "mother" personality who fell in love with 3 people in the same time ( which would not make sense because of what I said earlier, and because of Kanon who only appeared recently in the timeline, way after Beatrice), I have no idea.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5249969
So, Shannon is her own mother? What's her connection with Nanjo's granddaughter, I wonder?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250008
Shannon IS Nanjo's granddaughter, which was himself married with Kumasawa, and Genji is their first (and autistic) son. And Rokkenjima is, in fact, a psychiatric hospital ( would make sense with all of these DID crap)

[Anonymous No.]

Kanon's personality probably came at a later time, thats true, though it is possible that he was created the same time as the others. The original "Shannon" split into two or three at some point during Battler's absence, so this Shannon no longer existed. The current Shannon is not the original Shannon.

If Battler's sin hadn't been committed, Shannon would have probably never split. Her relationship with George and Jessica came along later, and she probably gave up waiting and created "Beatrice" to wait for her, and two other personalities to enjoy love. Without him, they wouldn't exist, so he can be their "father."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250140
So, how many personalities do you want to inflict on the poor girl? 4? Maybe 5 or 6, to be sure?
>The current Shannon is not the original Shannon.
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
But I'm sure you'll drag in some vague metaphor as a "clue" anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

If anyone wants to name Shannon, Kanon, or Jessica as Beatrice, they're going to have to present some affirmative evidence that one of them has been lying about their age. "It was possible" isn't good enough.

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/ has got a lot worse at making umineko theories. These all suck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250252
Randomly enough, I was reading through select parts of End a while ago, and something struck me as odd. Well, not odd. But I never really thought about it before. It was when Virgilia was telling Battler that Beato had absolutely nothing to gain from anyone finding the gold.

Jessica has nothing to gain from anyone finding it, either.

Assuming that whoever finds the gold automatically becomes the next head, that means that Jessica won't have the pressure of all that. Or, if we want to look at another shitty theory, the pressure of her finding a husband, if she even wants one. It's understandable why she'd want someone to find the gold, and to become the next head. To 'save' her from life she doesn't want.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250290
I guess everyone tired of it, and just waits for the first half of translation patch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250321
Well, it's better than making theories without playing the game

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250180
Come now, whenever someone uses that rule they'll just deny anything they show you as a clue and think they've disproved it. The clues are
>>5248767
>From this day on, you are not me.
>From this day on, I am not you.
>We will divide one soul, and share.
>That naturally won't fill up one soul, but. (? not 100% sure about this line)
You see, Shannon is dividing up her soul. Beatrice does not simply come into being. She is part of the original Shannon's personality. Her personality is being split in two. Further evidence is that she says "Father" comitted a sin that causes everyone to die and be revived,
>And someday.
>Destroy everything, revive everything.
I'll turn the rule back on you. The only person we know to have such a sin is Battler, she must be referring to Battler, so the question isn't "who is she talking about?", but "why can she call Battler father?"

As an extra note, Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice need to duke it out in order for their loves to succeed in episode 6, because neither of them are full humans in their own right - they need to defeat the other two and absorb their souls to become a full human, and therefore be capable of love.
>We will divide one soul, and share.
>That naturally won't fill up one soul, but. (? not 100% sure about this line)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250290
/jp/ has always been shit at making Umineko theories.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5248767
Where the fuck was this taken from?!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250506
Episode 6. This isn't anything new.
First, this happens:
>This is in a flashback when Beatrice recalls her "mother." We're seeing Battler converse with someone through that someone's viewpoint, and he's describing what kind of girl he would like. He mentions blonde and busty, and glamorous, and stuff like that. He also mentions Jessica's personality, he refers to Jessica in the third person. This strongly implies the person he is talking to is not Jessica.
Then that happens right after the scene.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250463
t's a bit more complicated for Beato by the way, the game only says this clearly for Kanon and Shannon.
But even so, I don't see a proof that it HAVE to be Shannon, or whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250463
>you are not me
>I am not you
Beatrice is not Shannon, Shannon is not Beatrice, ok. I'm asking proof that Shannon is a different Shannon.

That whole monologue maybe the proof only for Shannontrice, Kanon doesn't fit into it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5251201
She's a different Shannon because the original Shannon was one personality, here she splits her soul and becomes two personalities, so the "Shannon" personality now is only half of what it used to be, the catalyst of this is Battler. Shkanon has its own evidence, but as far as Battler's sin goes, it's only really necessary to assume Shannontrice. But when you consider Kanon saying that people die and are revived because of Father's sin, along with Shannon, he comes into the picture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5251226
Kanon first appears 3 years after Battler leaves though. So it doesn't make sense to use this as evidence that he's a personality Shannon created.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5251340
Read what Kanon said carefully.
Then remember what Kanon always says.

[Anonymous No.]

When Battler was twelve, he sneaked into the kitchen and ate all the candy. Not wanting to be caught, he filled the boxes with the content from another box.
For some reason, Battler hadn't learned to read at the time and was unable to see that the other box was labelled SMALL FOOD BOMBS.
Six years later, everybody on Rokkenjima died after eating meals laced with the bombs.

...And that, is Battlers sin.

[Anonymous No.]

This ShKanontrice thing is pure bullshit.

Erika is a meta character. She's the witch of truth, so she represent the meta persona of the individual wanting to solve the whole mystery the most. In EP5 she was Eva, in EP6 she was Sayo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252110
The Erika ball is full of win. A bit complicated to use, however.

[Anonymous No.]

Everybody on the island is Shannon. Battler just hasn't figured it out yet.

[Anonymous No.]

Shkanontrice would be better if Shannon wasn't such an awful character.

[Anno No.]

>>5252437
BUt still the Shkanontrice theory is based on a DID meido with 3 personalities that can switch AT WILL.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252110
>Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252455
It's stupid, I'll be the first to agree with that, but at this point they all are. Shannon, Kanon, Jessica, and I guess Kyrie are pretty much the only suspects people bother speculating about, and all the theories are fucking awful. At this point, the only thing to do is push for the character you want to be Beatrice, and ignore the how or why, because it will be stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

George and Jessica know Shannon is Sayo.
Battler doesn't know Shannon's real name.
Jessica doesn't know Kanon's real name. (for 1-4)
"Beatrice" sneakily tries to get Battler to remember or mention her name on two occasion.

There sure is a lot of name play, isn't there?

[Anonymous No.]

I love your theories, /jp/, I really do.

But man, I'll be laughing my ass of when someone in Episode 7 says

>>>/rs/Shannon_and_Kanon_are_two_different_persons_each_with_their_own_body

I mean, it's just the thing Ryu will do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252463
Actual person is extremely vague. It'd make sense if not for the fact that Kanon's name isn't actually Kanon. If it said the names "can only refer to the person themselves" I'd take it literally, but there is nothing defining what an "actual person" is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252502
>persons

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252566
Oh, heh.

It's late over here, give me a break.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252524
It does say "the people themselves". It's the same term, "honnin", that Beato used in EP4 to say that "no one can use Kanon's name except the person himself."

Full disclosure: I'm the one who did the EP6 red translations, and I deeply regret using "the actual people" now because everyone misinterpreted what it meant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5254306
Just a question, is the issue with Kanon himself?

>The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
>A different person cannot claim his name!

Is this a problem since we don't know who exactly Kanon is for the question arcs?

[Anonymous No.]

So I haven't been keeping up with the theories because they all give me headaches, but what good solutions are there for this so far? Ones not involving ShaKanon that is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5254922
Other than Kanon = Kinzo?

The other theory is that Kanon left the same time Erika did allowing him to be there when location check happened. With the red Erika should be in the cousin's room as well because only Kinzo is excluded, but she definitely never intended to trap herself in a closed room. So If Kanon escapes the same way Erika does than it works.

You don't even really need hints or explanations for this solution because the red says both of them entered the room. So Kanon did in fact escape the location check the same way Erika did.

A bit more on this
http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/4887992#p4895268

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255035

It's odd, because every time Erika asks Battler to repeat something regarding who did what/who was where in Episode 6, she includes herself as an exception.

But she never does that for the location check.

[Anonymous No.]

Read through the entire Umineko 6 thread on Animesuki (most of it anyways).

What happened to Ange at the end after she read Dawn of the Golden Witch to Featherine?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255241

Seems like she left to resume her investigation. I think this thread has some of the translated pieces after her meeting with Featherine:

>http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/5022618#p5023172

It's the phone conversation between Amakusa and Okonogi as Ange was about to leave Featherine's home.

[Anonymous No.]

I stick with my theory that Shannon and Kanon are two seperate people and that Kanon is Beatrice. Lets say "Kanon" appeared 3 years ago when the original personality gave up on waiting for Battler(which is retarded to think that it happened RIGHT AFTER he stopped coming in the first place) and then split. It also has less holes that the shit you guys are trying to sell, as it's ONLY hole is basically episode 6 which we all know has at least a 50% chance to be completely thrown out in the next episode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5243836
Obviously a promise he broke to Shannon. That's why Shannon's with George now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255373
Didn't she create Beatrice BECAUSE she was sick of the feeling of love and yearning. Wouldn't hooking up be the last thing you'd expect the non-Beatrice side to do, in fact doesn't that just make Shannon being Beatrice less likely? That is unless Shannon is just hooking up with George for money or revenge, then it makes all sorts of sense.

[Anonymous No.]

Shannon is Kanon. Erika doesn't exist.

That's right, bitches. I'M BACK.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255453
>Wouldn't hooking up be the last thing you'd expect the non-Beatrice side to do

You're right, it wouldn't be the last thing on your mind, but from the monologue, it seems like the creator also couldn't fulfill Battler's ideal woman. Blonde hair, blue eyes, tits..she might have been hurt by that.

Battler said that people are sometimes afraid to announce their feelings to someone they like, and they each wait for each other to admit it, but may eventually give up and move on. (I'm just paraphrasing his comment in E5.) Which is exactly what his first love was like. He admitted his first crush was on Shannon.

Imagine if this entire murder plot is because of this one misunderstanding!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255453
Battler basically said in episode 6 that he likes girls like Jessica. Blonde, bouncy and headstong.

If anything it went like this. Shannon hears Battler is returning Jessica gets all excited Shannon does not get excited since she's over him. Jessica asks if she can have her man (Battler). Shannon says he's more trouble than he's worth so Jessica can have him (gives Jessica her love). Battler never apologized (insert sin here) so he dies and spends time with Jessica for all eternity in the golden land.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255536
Go back to dead, shipperfags were the original annoying Umineko fans, before the mystery degraded so fucking badly that the mysteryfags just started grasping at whatever slightly logical, psuedoscientific explanation they could.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255633
>>5255580
You don't seem to understand the seriousness of it. She SPLIT her personality in two because she couldn't take it anymore. If anything I would think that the side without the feelings would be too scared/disconnected to even let others try and get close to her. Shannon is so far in her relationship with George that it would have meant that she moved on, and Beatrice would have ceased before Battler even returned.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5255872
No you don't understand. She split her soul and gave her love to someone else. It doesn't have to be a "personality".

Beatrice has a very roundabout way of expressing what she means. Battler said this much in episode 5. It's not meant to be taken literally. It's very possible "soul" is just a metaphor for her heart and giving that to someone else. Just like Shannon's line about the Aquarium where she said that it looked like they cut a piece of the ocean with a knife.

Without love it cannot be seen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5250463
There's that duel between Shannon and Kanon for a single love, right? But if you say that Kanon is actually a girl, then no matter how hard "he" tries, there is no way for him to obtain Jessica's love and the whole duel just doesn't make sense, don't you think?

[Anonymous No.]

>I'm a 10 year old girl who had a promise broken to her I'll create some alternate personalities inside my head at will and slaughter a family in 6 years time because of it

[Anonymous No.]

Are all the mysteries in the world originated from crazy irrational bitches? Ryu sure makes it look that way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258538
If Kyrie is the mastermind, she has enough reasons to blow the shit out of that island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258538
Most mysteries have some strong feeling as the motive, probably with the exception of money motive. Even so, you can say that the culprit was greedy, "had strong feelings towards money".
Shannon's motive is still ridiculous, that's why I think she's not mastermind, regardless of her Beatrice status.

[Anonymous No.]

>Shannon is Beatrice
>Final battle = George vs Battler

[Anonymous No.]

>>5252463
And where is the problem supposed to be if Erika is a title and a name which switch from one people to another?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258631
This would be hilarious.
Endless sorcerer vs fatass.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258636
>> I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people
Do you have no reading comprehension?

[None !NACK.rrrr. No.]

>>5258675
>Endless sorcerer vs Demon King

fix'd

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258691
Not the same person, but If you interpret the red that way it renders making any theories to solve episode 6 entirely useless. The main point of that red is to confirm what Erika asked. Which is whether or not 3 bodies entered the room. A body can represent a name of that name never even existed in the real Rokkenjima.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258691
That doesn't prevent Kanon from having second name.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258691
But according to the Erika ball or whatever, the people who have the Erika ball IS Erika in the game. So there is not any problem here, as long as Erika doesn't exist and is a coat/another identity for the one who want to solve the mystery/whatever for another character..

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258713
.
Most scary thing I have seen since a while.
Please, Ryukishi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258728
Yeah, but Erika has her own body.
AND the presence of the other characters are clearly stated somewhere else.
Basically you are saying that A can become B.
Nice and all, but A is stated to be in a room and B is stated to be in another room.
See where the problem is?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258735
Yeah, in the same place as Shkannon. Funny, isn't it?

Not really in fact, because she could be one of the "everyone else".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258735
This is easily solvable if we assume she is one of the five people and that she was trying to kill Battler and the rest. There is nothing saying she can't commit suicide and there is nothing saying the five people were all Natsuhi, Eva, Maria, and Kyrie. As long as Erika or Kanon are the fifth person with their heads dismembered than this theory works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258755
forgot Rosa, but you get what I mean

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258750
>>5258755
Alright, let see your way.
Now tell me, what does it solve?
R07 stated in his latest interview that the last closed room contained the "key" witch which you could solve episode 1-4 with.
It's stated in red that Erika didn't exist nor did she have any influence in any ways in these episodes.
So tell me, how does this Erika ball thing solve Umineko?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258795
He said that about Battler's escape. Erika has nothing to do with it, because she's not the rescuer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258813
Yeah.
But that Erika ball thing was created by you guys for only one thing, to render ShKanon(trice) useless.
But Battler escape, that contain the key of Umineko, was solved thank to Kanon that then disappeared.
So tell me, how did Battler escape and how did Kanon disappear?
Erika has nothing to do with it, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258795
no he said if you had the key the thing with Battler shouldn't surprise you. He never said the key first appeared in episode 6 just that people are probably aware of it, but haven't used it..

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258824

Read the thread we already discussed this. If your for Shkanon theory I have to ask why can Erika escape the location check when she's not excluded? Unless there is a reason why she can and Kanon can't I can just say Kanon escaped the same way she did.

>>5254922
>>5255035

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258795
You're the one taking it too literally.
A key is not a THING.
It could also be a method, which can be used in many other situations.Especially to bypass the red, just like Shkannon. Not like if Shkannon would explain everything by the way, and the Erika ball is the same.
By the way, if there is no Erika bal or whatever, how the hell did you explain the fact that she kills people? Even if she is not supposed to have an impact on the story? (And how can this be of any help to solve ep 1-4, also...)

And if you want to play with interviews, Ryukishi also said many times that no one have the answer to the mystery. And long after Shkannon.
Among other things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258839
I didn't refer to that post above because that was stupid
>>Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left
>>Kanon does not exist inside the bedroom.
Kanon didn't go out of the room, stated in red.
He doesn't exist in the room anymore, stated in red again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258901
He died.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258901
Because he's dead right?

[Anonymous No.]

As for the key for the other riddles in previous episodes: Kanon entered the room, reset the chain and died - maybe most riddles of the closed rooms are created by the victims themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258892
She kills people because she is there, that's all.
The Erika ball is fucking stupid, it just doesn't make sense.
It's stated that she didn't exist in any ways before episode 5.
it's stated that the game didn't change except for her presence.
It's stated that her presence add 1 to the head count.

So explain it to me how a "title" can add a person to a head count?
Or how the Erika title could be created just for episode 5 and 6?
Saying that one of the character got a new name, one that didn't exist before episode 5, you got to have some clues for that, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258921
No, Battler check that by the definition of closed room in ep3.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258912
>>5258910
Dead people don't disappear.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258901
So your not going to explain why Erika can kill people and why she can escape the location check if she's not excluded? I'll just stick with my theory then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258927
That's only one riddle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258929
Kinzo is dead and he doesn't exist. Said in red. Dead = does not exist should already be an established fact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258941
Dead people are referred all the time in the head counts.
Or you'll tell me that new people come on the island right when someone die next, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258953
Not after they are dead they aren't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258924
>So explain it to me how a "title" can add a person to a head count?
Only after you will explain why Beatrice personality doesn't count towards the number of people.
>Or how the Erika title could be created just for episode 5 and 6?
Well, on the other hand you, Shkannonfags can interpret 'person' as a body for one episode (**Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room.**) and as a personality for the others.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258964
They are.
See end of episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>She kills people because she is there, that's all.
She HAVE NO THE RIGHT TO DO IT. It would influence the rokkenjima tale.

>>The Erika ball is fucking stupid, it just doesn't make sense.
Just like a DID maido.

It's stated that she didn't exist in any ways before episode 5.
>> Yeah, she probably didn't existed as Erika. And now the author use her to show us a big sign " LOOK, SOMEONE CAN HAVE TWO IDENTITY IN THE SAME TIME, YOU ARE DUMB, YOU HAVE NOT NOTICED THAT IN FOUR GAMES". Or something like that.

>>it's stated that the game didn't change except for her presence.

Ep6.

>>It's stated that her presence add 1 to the head count.

Let's play a game. Take someone. It is one body. Okay?
Now, add one personnality. Just like Shkannon.
Only one of them is active at a time. So it can only add ONE people. 17 people.
Now, delete Kanon. And Shannon is still active. Still 17 people.
Erika add one because she is into a "body" who add one. But this body also have his "true" personnality. So even if you were to delete Erika, itwould still be 17.

I quote:
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."


Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
=> One, by the body she is in.
It is BY ONE PERSO. Not BY ONE PERSON COMPARED TO THE PREVIOUS GAME.

Now, second sentence.
"Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games."

Delete Erika. Yeah, there is still her "true personnality". So the number of people on the island stay the same. Magical.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258978
That's at 24:00 after the game has ended. Are you going to count Kinzo now?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258976
>>Only after you will explain why Beatrice personality doesn't count towards the number of people.

That theory come from 2ch and seems to be pretty popular so not taking credit.
The last red text of Erika stated that she was the 18th visitor.
"Beatrice" was born on the island, so she isn't a visitor.
But there is only 17 people on the island.

>>
Well, on the other hand you, Shkannonfags can interpret 'person' as a body for one episode (**Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room.**) and as a personality for the others.
By this thing, your Erika ball couldn't work as well you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259001
That's not true, the game was far from ended at that time.
Neither episode 5 nor episode 6 ends at midnight of the second day.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259010
The red was PROCLAIMED after 24:00. Just like Lambda's proclamation was in episode 5. You know what I'm not even going to bother with you about this. You may think it's stupid, but that's just your opinion. Kanon turning off his personality just to become Shannon is and even more ridiculous way to escape that red. It's the only time you'll ever use it too. It doesn't solve any of the past episodes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258984
Of course Erika influences episode 5 and 6, her sole presence influences everything greatly.

What was stated in red was that she didn't exist or influence episode 1-4, your point doesn't make any sense.

She can do whatever she wants in episode 5 and 6.

And the second half of your post is fucking stupid.
>> Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

Add 1 to the head count isn't something you can go around.
It's just x+1, extremely simple

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259034
>>It doesn't solve any of the past episodes.
Actually it does, it may be stupid but that's what Umineko is headed toward, it's really very clear.
Not even a question of red text or whatever, basically most of episode 6 was focused on hammering this point.
Honestly you should stop being so delusional, I'm saying this for your sake, it will only hurts more when episode 7 will be released otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5258953
They are referred, but the word 'exist' is not used. It was used only for Kinzo, Battler and Kanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>Of course Erika influences episode 5 and 6, her sole presence influences everything greatly.

>>What was stated in red was that she didn't exist or influence episode 1-4, your point doesn't make any sense.

>>She can do whatever she wants in episode 5 and 6.
So I will ask you your own question: how is this supposed to help us solving ep 1-4, if she is a totally new character without any link? Especially when she KILL PEOPLE, so it must have some meaning.

>>Add 1 to the head count isn't something you can go around.
>>It's just x+1, extremely simple


And why not?
I am only taking the red literally. The first sentence doesn't talk about any of the previous game. And Shannon and Kanon, Even if Shkannon was true, could also "only increases it by one person".

So, keep your stupid for Shkannon. Or for something else that is not " NAH IT DIDNT WORK BECAUSE I DECIDED IT LULZ"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259062
>basically most of episode 6 was focused on hammering this point.

No it wasn't. Stop making shit up. Nothing Zepar and Furfur ever said ever referenced personalities counting as persons. The only person who ever implied that was Featherine and Ryukishi never mentioned her in the interview.

I'll convene that the episode heavily implies Shkanon, but not the personality variation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259103
Question of themes, symbolism and all that stuffs, idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5259084
Even if Shkannon was true, could also "only increases it by one person".

is supposed to be

Even if Shkannon was true, Kanon or Shannon could also "only increases it by one person".

[Anonymous No.]

>We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
So basically, with this red truth they "kill" Erika, right? How the fuck that truth can KILL her, deny her existence, if she exists for real and has her own living body? Red can only deny phantoms and illusions (see Natsuhi, Beato in 5), it can't contradict reality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5260566
"I am...
...the Witch of Truth, Furudo Erika.... ...The Witch of Truth is... a witch who can stand up to... the truth. I think I can finally...
...accept the real truth... about myself..

Erika and Beato said nothing to each other, silently loading bullets of truth.
...The truths they packed into the muzzles of their guns were both... red....
Did this mean that even though they hadn't exchanged words at all, ...they each knew what the other's trump card was...?

[Anonymous No.]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5260566
Anyone claiming that Erika exists should also have to explain why she's suddenly allowed to violate Knox 1 by committing the first twilight murders herself, even though Battler wasn't allowed to violate it in EP5 to explain things with the man from nineteen years ago.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5260772
Yeah, that's another one I wanted to post.
What's that so important TRUTH about her she must face?


And as for
>Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
from ep5, we can easily explain it, if we assume that she's in fact drifted alive, thanks to many miracles, on the island, but ONLY IN THE 5th GAME. In that game witches gladly provided us with the head count estimate, but in the next game we learn it only as a final truth, denying Erika.
In the 5th game she was a human, but in the 6th she became a 'witch'.
We can say that she's dead for any games except 5th.

[Anonymous No.]

Oh, wow, this thread is still here. Just a quick question: In the fifth game, was it possible to establish a red truth based off an unreliable perspective?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5267643
We have to trust that Erika is a reliable narrator for herself and what she sees is truth, so all the things she does and can be proven, can be turned into red truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5267643
It was proclaimed in red that she's a detective. Detective has a reliable perspective. Therefore, what she sees can be an evidence needed for establishing red truth.

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

>>5267942

Very little of what we see is from her perspective, however. All we know is that she taped up everything and held her ear against the wall to the cousins' room.

[Anonymous No.]

Well, let's go by Divine Comedy.

The final, worst sin is a betrayal of belief.

That kind of points to one kind of ponies or another.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268040

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268073
ShKanontrice confirmed.
Umineko sucks

[Anonymous No.]

Adding to the Erika's existential problem:


Erika called the bodies "those corpses" in red even though there was no way they were dead at the time. Ronove replies that "There is no rule that you can't call a corpse something that is not that"
"It is possible for observers to present their own interpretations." That is the point that Dlanor uses to justify it.

So Erika would be an "observer", amirite?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5263858

She didn't.

She renounces her detective rights before she kills them.
Though another thing I've always found interesting, why does Erika not know about Shkanon if it's true? Her piece, with a reliable perspective, was RIGHT THERE LOOKING AT KANON AND SHANNON in Ep5.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268243

To clarify, I don't mean anything about the supposed 'trick' where we see through Battler's eyes.

I mean Erika herself was sitting right there looking at them, so why doesn't she know?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268452
She wasn't really looking at them, but that's beside the point. Erika was in the room, but nobody was like "hey Erika, right now everyone on the island is in this room, Shannon and Kanon are right there where only one person is standing."

How is she supposed to "realize"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268452
It's not stated that the detective always look at reliable things.
Only that what we see from the detective POV is reliable.
It's not the same thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268452
Detective's authority has nothing to do with Knox's 1st:
>Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268474

Oh, right. For some reason I was thinking it was 'the detective himself must not be the culprit'.

That IS interesting, then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268474
She isn't the main culprit.
She just killed some people, not the same thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268462

She was with them the whole time after every twilight too, with people talking to them and them talking back.

Explain it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268462
Maybe because other people addressed to Shannon and Kanon with her presence in a different scenes. And then all gathered, she sees them, she knows, that there are all people and still doesn't understand? Bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5263858
Because the Knox rules were explicitly stated to be all used in Umineko, and set in stone, and definitely followed by 100% to your own interpretation of them?

Let me tell you something about the knox rules. They aren't arbitrary rules saying "don't do this, don't do that because I said so." They're rules about the fairness of the mystery.

What's meant by mystery? A mystery novel, where usually, there is one story, and one murder. Tell me, what is unfair about Erika killing 6 people in a story, a story that begun after she had been introduced?

This rule is basically telling you "don't introduce a character after the murders have long since been committed at the end of the novel and say they're the killer." Why? Because the person reading the novel had know way of knowing this mysterious culprit existed, it wasn't fair game. They could have thought an unknown person X did it, but they couldn't name that person X because there was no mention of them, they never appeared, until the last moment.

You really have the most basic and childish interpretation of the rules, rather fitting for the "lol Erika doesn't exist" theory, which is a theory only coined in the first place for people who want to ignore the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268243
[red] When Jessica's corpse was found, there were only... [/red]
The corpse of [red]Jessica is also included[red]

trollface.jpg

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268521
>for people who want to ignore the truth
It is YOU who are ignoring the truth. Explain this: >>5260566
>>5260772

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268497
>>5268506
Find one scene where Erika is with both Kanon and Shannon, and says things like "Hey Kanon," and then "Hey Shannon". A non-fantasy scene, by the way. You can't.

All you can find are scenes where the narrator may say "Kanon said this" and "Shannon said that" but the narrator is third person, and unlike Battler's first person narration for the first four episodes, is not particularly reliable. After all, it's the same narrator who describes all the fantasy scenes.

What exactly needs explaining?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268521

Then why do you people with the 'truth' ignore all the blatant contradictions to Shannon and Kanon being the same person?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268546
That Erika would need to be retarded not to notice it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268563
What are those contradictions you speak of?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268541
I really doubt you people who think Shkanon is false have played episode 6 at all, and probably just go off small snippets you get from other people.

Regardless, it's pretty simple. Remember in episode 4 where Beatrice makes Battler deny himself? The red she used had nothing to do with Battler not existing, it was wordplay. This is the same thing. Erika tries to say there are 18 people in red, and she does, but at the same time there are only 17. This could have the same effect on her as it had on Battler in episode 4.

Even discounting that though, from episode 5 (which you people will actually have read), we are told episode 6 is Erika's last chance, so she's going to be gone at the end either way. In fact, Erika's episode 6 tip says this as well. Erika had already lost by that point, and she would have "died" regardless of whether she was shot or not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268546

Regardless of if it's a fantasy scene or not, Erika should be able to see what her piece sees. That's certainly how it works in Episode 6, as Battler had no idea what Erika did to cause the logic error.

So then why doesn't she know? It doesn't matter if she talks to them or not- they're still in the room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268563
There are no blatant contradictions, only contradictions you make up, often by taking red out of context, or misinterpreting rules, or discarding the whole thing because it's "stupid" or "unreasonable" without any actual debate.

>>5268566
Retarded to not know what? That some invisible narrator is lying? If someone, unbeknownst to you, filmed you talking with your friend, then edited the footage so it appeared like your friend was two people and these two people shared the lines your friend said, then added their own narration to it that describes them as two people, but never ever shows this to you, are you supposed to realize they did so?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268546
The phrases of the characters are not said by narrator, and they are said in the presence of the detective.
Scene at the study:
Gohda: "That's right...!! In addition to Madam, the other servants take care of the Master on a daily basis, and they see him all the time...!! Genji-san, Shannon-san, and Kanon-kun...! Even Doctor Nanjo and Kumasawa-san meet with him often...!"
Erika: "Aren't all of the witnesses besides Natsuhi-san servants employed by her? ......So you used money to make them follow your story...ah man, this is really third-rate. Pitiful, pitiful. .........I'm disappointed, Natsuhi-san. So I guess I'll have to finish this now."

Erika DEFINITELY heard that, because she replied to that and they are both standing right there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268575
Do you even realize what you're saying? Yes, they're in the same room. But what is she supposed to "see"? She sees one person, and she never says anything that implies she sees two people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268595
>The phrases of the characters are not said by narrator, and they are said in the presence of the detective.
Just like Battler sees Kinzo in the presence of a detective. Lied saying he did, in fact.

I see nothing about the line there that shows she acknowledges the two of them as separate people who are present.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268592
>There are no blatant contradictions, only contradictions you make up, often by taking red out of context, or misinterpreting rules, or discarding the whole thing because it's "stupid" or "unreasonable" without any actual debate.

That's funny, that's the same thing Shkanonfags do.

Explain why everyone covers for Shkanon when only one of them dies. I don't mean the servants, I mean everyone else.

Natsuhi and Hideyoshi in Episode 1.

All of the adults in Episode 3 see both of their corpses but Kyrie and Rosa.

Krauss, Kyrie in Episode 4.


Why does Jessica play along? Is there a good reason?

Why does Kanon EXIST in the first place (and don't say because of Jessica, he existed before the love fiasco there)?

How did Shannon get out of the adjoining room in Ep6 if the door was sealed in red and the window had a blue text seal that no theory could use?

Etc, etc.

I could go on if I wanted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268598

THAT'S THE POINT.

Why doesn't Erika KNOW about Shannon and Kanon then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268624
Because she is told about them? She "knows" Shannon and Kanon both exist, and who knows who Shkanon is dressed as in the scenes where the narrator says both are present. In fact, she is tricked in the same way Battler is tricked, just with a narrator who lies added in, since Battler as the narrator in episodes 1-4 was bound not to lie.

>>5268615
I will not solve the mystery for you in order to simply present Shannon and Kanon being the same person; why don't you solve the mystery for me so you can say that they aren't?

But for the point of people not ratting out Shkanon, they could do so because the truth about Kinzo's death is bound to it. If they reveal it, Shkanon could easily reveal that Kinzo was dead to repay the favor. Don't try to weasel your way out of that by claiming arbitrarily that they wouldn't do this because it'd be too important to them because you said so, Natsuhi is shown to have absolute devotion to never letting this secret out, no matter the cost.

Shannon and Kanon are both personalities created so that the original personality can find love in some way. They are split from Beatrice, who is the personality who waits for the original love interest, Battler.

[Anonymous No.]

Is there an ep6 patch apart from the one on WH site? Some unofficial one maybe?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268611
>Just like Battler sees Kinzo in the presence of a detective.
He didn't. Game was already over.


She's seeing one person, by your theory, right? Yet other people are referring to them in her presence. Then when she announced all people gathering, she must have noticed if one of them wasn't present, she even ordered them both to close the door:
".........Oh, sorry. Could you close that door for me?"
""Y, yes...""

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268684
I'm aware she ordered them to close the door, but again there is nothing showing she really acknowledges two people being there. In fact, asking both of them to close the door is strange when one could. Erika never explicitly says "everyone must be at this meeting I won't tolerate it if there is a person missing", does she? Since she doesn't, your own interpretation of whether she would care of not is just that.

[Anonymous No.]

Another fine Umineko thread where the "mystery" devolves into bickering about semantics instead of trying to figure out how the murders were done.

Both of your theories and your arguments in favor of them are utterly absurd and would be laughed out of a writing contest for grade schoolers. I don't have the highest opinion on Ryu07's talent as a writer, but daymn. Give the guy some credit.

[Anonymous No.]

As a side note, don't you realize how funny it is that you can't ever find a detective who reliably sees them both together? In episode 1 alone, Battler sees everyone else together. Shannon and Kanon still have nothing like this, after 6 episodes, and you still think it's a red herring.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268697
For every long debate, there is someone who comes in, calls both sides retarded, then says nothing more, and presents nothing of his own.

And the reality is most of the time, this person would have to choose either side anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268624
Because if this shit was true, she would have reasoned in a VERY different way until now, and would have found this suspicious even in ep5.

[Anonymous No.]

The "Erika knows Shannon and Kanon are the same person but prefers to ignore it" theory hinges on Erika not wanting to solve the mystery at all.

[Anonymous No.]

it would be hilarious if Ryu07 hadn't actually thought of a solution at all, and instead is waiting for some fan theory to pop up that he can use and claim it was what he had thought all along.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268574
>Beatrice makes Battler deny himself
He wasn't denying himself in red, it's just his doubts.
>Erika tries to say there are 18 people in red, and she does, but at the same time there are only 17.
She would be an 18th human, if she wasn't dead. Battler's/Beato's truth countered her truth, so it's not valid. I'll repeat, red can't kill anyone, who's alive.

>we are told episode 6 is Erika's last chance
We are also told that she's a witch now. You don't think witch existed there, do you?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268728
Erika may want to solve the mystery, but she isn't very good at it. She really hasn't been right about anything over two episodes, and she's really bad at figuring out the staple Ryu07 trick which is to say all these things about an impossible thing that supposedly happened, but never specify that it really did occur. In episode 5, she accepts corpses exist without seeing them. In episode 6, she doesn't really inspect the corpses much, for which the Meta-reason is that she is trying to trap Battler in a logic trick, but for which the actual reason is probably closer to episode 5. She's just incompetent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268693
>Erika never explicitly says "everyone must be at this meeting I won't tolerate it if there is a person missing", does she?
She does:
>"Since I have it all laid out, this is a very important thing to discuss. Neither you nor anyone else has the right to refuse."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268744
We don't really know, for the red. It depend of how you ae taking it.
If the red is only the truth, or if it is a way to write the rules of the "rokkenjima tale" and must be followed without creating any contradiction.
I don't like the idea of the way to write the rokkenjima tale and don't believe in it, but it is an interresting point of view.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268746
>Erika may want to solve the mystery, but she isn't very good at it.

True, but failing to understand the significance of two people being one in a drag is less "not very good" territory and more "how can she tie her shoes without accidentally strangling herself".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268746
In ep6 she just don't care about the culprit. But in ep6 she is WAY more competent than Battler, if it was not for her dirty tricks with Bernkastel. Battle never put tape anywhere or nothing which can be used to solve the mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268746
In ep6 she just don't care about the culprit. But in ep5 she is WAY more competent than Battler, if it was not for her dirty tricks with Bernkastel. Battler never used tape anywhere or nothing which can be used to solve the mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268757
These two cases are not identical. The point is they were able to kill her with a single red line, just like Bern was able to deny illusion of Beato with a single line.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268792
Yeah, very competent with not caring about corpses in the slightest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268744
Do you also think Maria doesn't exist on the island?
>He wasn't denying himself in red, it's just his doubts.
His doubts almost deny himself. Lambda has to scrape what's left of him back, and he's barely alive. Ange has to sacrifice herself and use her own theory about the whole situation to get him truly back.

You can't really accept that this can occur in the Meta-world and then claim it can't be possible in episode 6 unless Erika doesn't exist.
>Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
>I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.

This kind of theory seems almost to be based on saving your precious characters. It's as if you know Erika is already gone, so it's alright to say she didn't exist at all, just so you can get around this theory that says either Kanon or Shannon doesn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268805
Not caring about corpses because she doesn't want to mess with the scene fot the police.

[Anonymous No.]

Riddle me this,
># No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
>This applies to all games!!!
Can "this applies to all games" be subverted in the very next episode? Doubt it. Kinzo's death also applies to all games, you don't see him getting up and walking around. Note that it's "no more than" not "there are 17."
>Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
Are we to accept this means the limit of 17 is raised to 18, even though it was supposed to apply to all games? Because it seems like there are much more than the games we're shown, based on what Kanon and Shannon say in episode 4 and based on this.
When we are actually told the number of humans on the island,
>even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
It's 17. 17, if we count Erika as a person. Enough of this "Erika counts as 0, 17+0 is 0". Erika is being welcomed, she's being counted, she's being counted as one person just like she does in the other reds show in episode 5 and 6. So once you take her out, there should be 16.

This interpretation is an one that allows "there are no more than 17 people, this applies to all games" to actually be true for all episodes.

So which do you think is more accurate? This, or "Erika existed up to that point but she suddenly didn't exist for this red and was 0 in the equation even though it was said in red that she would be counted"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268749
She refuses to allow the meeting to not be held. Nothing that explicitly says she will not tolerate anyone absent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268792
Erika never mentions her tape in the game itself. It's only used in the meta world. What practical use does her tape actually have? What if the culprit just went around ripping off all sorts of tape? Sure, it'd show that a room wasn't magically broken into, but a real detective would care more about the culprit and not whether or not magic was involved.

[Anonymous No.]

The greatest number of people we ever see in one screen at the same time (not counting the Stakes) is three. Adding one for the viewpoint character, we can safely assume that the total number of people on the island is four, and they are just exchanging wigs and hats to play out the roles. The whole of Umineko is the dialog between four mentally ill people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268793
In the PoV of these who believe that the Rokkenjima tale is written in each episode, she was able to kill it because the red decided that " Natsuhi is alone". So Beato doesn't had the right to exist here, with Natsuhi.
I agree that it is pretty "stupid" because then, only the game master should be able to use the red. But it is an interesting theory which could explain the red "killing people" even if you don't like it. ( Well, I doesn't defend it well, since I dislike it in the first place)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268848
The point is that she really cared about the mystery, even with her dirty tricks. Someone would not think about anything so strange and "forgetting" that someone in front of her have a mental disorder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268867

Four? Four... That's effective proof that the "people" are the Siestas (viewpoint character is 556, that's why you don't see her). This tale takes place in an asylum for lunatic rabbits.

Lunatic rabbits? Reisen? Touhou? My god, this goes way deeper than I imagined...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268895
So, basically umineko is a trip with Eirin, Reisen, Tewi, and Kaguya on drugs?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268818
The whole denying yourself because the very "logic" of your existence is being denied is why I think that the entire meta-world is just a huge case of some crazy roleplaying DID faggotry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268818
>Do you also think Maria doesn't exist on the island?
Don't ascribe to me what you want to.
>His doubts almost deny himself.
Irrelevant. Also >>5268793

>Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
For episode 5, not 6.


>>5268824
She knows that police will never arrive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268867
Oh please, that's entirely different. Though we can only see three at once, what we're being shown doesn't truly matter. For instance, you're not going to solve the game by looking at the sprites and realizing everyone must have some horrible disease. The narrator demonstrates that far more than three are present in any one place on many occasions, and that narrator is one who is not allowed to lie. For episodes 1-4 where Battler is the narrator, anyway.

It's truly profound that through Battler's perspective, from the very first episode, we can rule of X person being Y, where X and Y can be any two different members of the 17, as long as they're not Shannon and Kanon.

After episode 2, still no Shannon and Kanon together.
Episode 3, still nope.
4, nope.
Episode 5, our reliable narrator is gone, we have a Battler who lies, and they finally show up together. What a coincidence. Shkanon theory is declared dead after episode 5's release, Ryu07 later comments that a "very dirty trick" was in episode 5.
Episode 6, Shkanon belief is renewed, and we're even told there are 17 people.

At this point, not believing in Shkanon is the ludicrous position.

In episode 4, the mere fact that Battler never sees them together was proof enough for nearly all parties that they were the same, and few people disputed that. After the death and rebirth of the theory, however, things are entirely different, and despite the overwhelming evidence that can be collected on top of them simply not being seen together, nobody will believe it.

[Anonymous No.]

So Erika was only there for episode 5 and not episode 6, that's your new theory.

I have a question, why the fuck do you insist to make Umineko worse it is?
I mean, the story is already quite a trainwreck, but the asspulls you are pulling are even worse.
Do you really think anyone could respect such a result?
OH GUY ERIKA WAS THERE FOR EPISODE 5 BUT I TROLLED YOU, SHE WASN'T THERE FOR EPISODE 6, GOT YOU
BEST PLOT EVER.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268920
Yeah, in episode 5, Erika exists, but in episode 6 she doesn't because it's convenient for you. Instead of the rules remaining constant and all. Erika is still counting as a person in episode 6.
>I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
Unless you try to work around this desperately by claiming "you" could refer to anyone and not who it is being addressed to, in which case you may as well toss every piece of red out the window because you could always argue they apply to some irrelevant context.

And even if she wasn't being counted, the funny thing is that Shkanon would still have to be true, since
>even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
shows that EVEN IF Erika is counted as one, it's still only 17 people, and therefore 16 without her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268920
And yet she still try to have a natural behaviour (as far as listening to walls can be natural).
In any way, she showed many times that she wasn't only here for tourism and that she was thinking about a "mystery" answer.
And if we suppose that Shkannon is true, she could NOT have found a better scapegoat than someone with a mental disorder. You may dislike Erika, but she is not stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

Episode 5, our reliable narrator is gone, we have a Battler who lies, and they finally show up together. What a coincidence. Shkanon theory is declared dead after episode 5's release, Ryu07 later comments that a "very dirty trick" was in episode 5.
Shkannon was discussed since A LONG time ago, and Ryukishi said in interviews that nobody still know the answer. So what?
And by the way. Even if shkannon was true. It would have NOTHING to do with the murders or anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268834
>"Natsuhi-san has just come back. Now that we're all here, I have something very important to discuss with you ALL."
>"Yes, it's very important. ......I'd like to lay out everything in front of you ALL, starting with the first crime."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268962
Shkanon is only a tiny part of the truth. Perhaps an insignificant part, but you sure as hell aren't going to be able to solve it very well if you still think they're the same person, just like you won't be able to solve if it you think Kinzo is alive. Kinzo is a perfect example of this, what impact did him being dead really, truly have?

However, Shkanon has more relevance than Kinzo's life/death status. Shkanontrice in particular. Battler's sin is highly related to the mystery, and his sin is all about Shkanontrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268964
And does she mean everyone on the island, or just present company? Though how about a different angle for a change.

Gohda talks about Shannon and Kanon, sure. But aren't there more servants he could have talked about that should have seen Kinzo? The servants who weren't on shift on the day of incident, that is. Even if they are not privy to the truth, that doesn't dispel my point here - is Erika actually aware that both Shannon and Kanon are on the island?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268940
We already discussed that many times. Erika is just a 'title' of the detective.

>And even if she wasn't being counted, the funny thing is that Shkanon would still have to be true, since...

By that logic and
>I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
Kanon must count as another person too, unless you want to change your theory into Kshanontrice with all the consequences.


Erika counts as 0, because she's dead and died before the game start.

[Anonymous No.]

Umineko thread going in circle with retards in every sides.
The usual.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268977
No. If Shkannon is true, IT WAS NEVER NEEDED TO SOLVE THE MYSTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Just like if the Erika bal is true. Or whatever.
I'm not even thinking about making me change my mind, even only here. If Shkannon is true, we just don't care and it is not needed. It could only bring a misunderstanding, well, for the time being I don't see it. The only misunderstanding I can see is Shkannon.
Shkannon would have NOTHING to do with the mystery. If Shkannon is true. And I still don't see why it would be so.
But it would be a WONDERFUL red herring.

[Anonymous No.]

>213 posts and 20 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
ITT: we run in circles

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269017
Present your great theory, we will discuss it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269034
Isn't it this way since ep6?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269010
I'm sorry I'm not aware of the discussion of a theory that is only made for people who haven't read episode 6, and want to assert their own twisted explanation as much as possible - whether it be Erika conveniently fading in and out of existence, Erika conveniently counting as 0 even though she should be "welcomed" or counted (what's the difference between "even if we welcome you" and not counting her if she's 0? "Even if welcome you" implies that she will be counted as 1 even if she is 0.) - or Jessica being Battler, or Battler falling of the boat and thereby never arriving on Rokkenjima in the first place even though if this was possible it means he could have fallen of and swam to short and never died and the whole game's certain death idea becomes pointless - or whatever else has been dreamed up, as long as Shannon and Kanon remain the same person.

What you're doing here is trying to deny my line of logic by supposing my theory is true in order to do it. What an inconsistent argument.
>I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
By YOUR logic, Erika cannot count as a person, nor can Kanon count as two. So this line wouldn't work at all.

If Shkanon is true, "people"/"human" is already played with plenty. In fact, the very lines we're talking about at the end prove this - Erika is the 18th, yet she is the 17th.

Erika is dead before the game start, right, and people are carrying Erika's corpse in and out of closed room so your theory works, I know, it's completely retarded, but you claim it. It doesn't make it any more plausible. Compared to Shkanon, it's something pulled out of thin air just so you can have a contrary position.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269010
Wait, he must be counted as a person either way, because of this:
>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
Therefore, if Erika counts as 1, there should be 18 anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

ShKanontrice is true.
Fiction is true.
You can go in circle all you want, you can continue to hold on a very tiny hope for whatever reason if you want.
But be assured that your hopes will be completely destroyed in 2 months, best resign yourself now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269044
You're the one not understanding anything about the erika ball here...
Just take it as a Shkannon, but with Erika instead of Kanon, and with anyone.
Kanon count as a person. So Erika, when she is "using" a body, also count as a perso. So this line can work this way. Erika is a 0 in a 1.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269049
That's fucking stupid, do you have some kind of mental deficiency?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5268922

Up until Ep6, Shkanon was considered to be a "joke theory", existing only to point out how ludicrous theories based only around Battler's perception of events actually were.

Regardless of whether or not Battler ever sees Shannon and Kanon together, if you just think for a few minutes, it should become obvious that Shkanon is logically impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269053
"I will not give a clear answer".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269020
Like I said, what does Kinzo being dead have to do with the mystery? It doesn't give you much of an insight, and the theory only existed in the first place so people could introduce another character to the island. It turned out to be true anyway.

That Shkanon has nothing to do with the mystery is really your own interpretation. If you actually apply Shkanon(trice) to all episodes, there are more than a few insights that come to light. In fact, this whole moon-chan business only surfaced after a supposition of Shkanontrice, and the realization that Jessica must be in on it. Originally this just led to yandere lesbian Jessica, but this was taken further and lies of Jessica's were showcased from all episodes, and people were obsessed with how sketchy she was, and some point along the way, Shkanon was dropped, even though it was a critical part of the process.

It isn't the whole truth, though. And this is the very reason Ry07 can say the mystery hasn't been solved even though Shkanon is clear to many people. Even the people who deny it are well aware of the theory. In another interview, he stated that many people had discovered the "key" to the truth after episode 6, but nobody had actually taken this key and properly applied it to find the whole truth.

I can only see one thing this key is. "Erika doesn't exist in episode 6" cannot possibly be applied to all other episodes to find any kind of truth. Shkanontrice is the biggest thing that came out of episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269062
It wasn't a joke theory at all. In episode 4, it had about as much prominence as it has now (without the -trice) part, and it was widely accepted, and it was even more accepted than it is now, now we have rabid anti-Shkanon parties that will argue at length and never ever accept it, you wouldn't find that in episode 4.

After episode 5, the theory didn't exist at all. Or maybe it existed as much as the pony theory does today, which is to say only people who had been under a rock for months believed it. It was dispelled by the "dirty trick" of Erika's presence compounded with an unreliable narrator.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269062
Even more if you are playing with the red. Each servant only have one key on him.
So?
Does Shannon/Kanon always go in a x room, laid her/his key, take the other one key, and then go away?
If not, Shannon OR Kanon should have 2 keys on her/him. And the red make this impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269076

Ryukishi said the 'key' has to do with the closed rooms.

Neither Shkanon nor Erika-not-existing can have anything to do with solving the closed rooms... in fact, Shkanon actually makes some of them MORE difficult to solve.

So I think the key has to be something everyone has realized but doesn't even consider to be a mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269095
Actually most closed rooms can be solved if you consider that Shannon or Kanon can "die" but still
move and do whatever they have to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269090

Yeah... no, Shkanon was never 'widely accepted'. It was just something interesting people talked about and/or made fun of.

Frankly, I still think it's a joke theory even now. Again, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

If you consider exactly how many people would have to be in on the secret (read: everybody) and yet not see fit to inform Battler of this fact...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269113
No theory given these days make any logical sense.
Neither DID meido, nor your Erika ball or whatever you can think of.
The only difference is that DID meido actually has a lot of hints in the game, despite its stupidity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269095
Shkanon(trice) doesn't make them harder to solve. In fact, if we look at episode 1 with Shkanontrice in mind, we know that there was no corpse of Shannon in the shed. So we know a death of "Shannon" was faked. The hardest mysteries in episode 1 would be the deaths of Kanon, and the deaths of four people when nobody should have been capable of killing them (Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Natsuhi). At the end of episode 1, Beatrice appears. With the supposition of Shkanontrice, it becomes very clear. Kanon faked his death - nobody ever said he died, everyone knows that. The Beatrice is Kanon, Kanon killed the four of them.

In episode 2, there's the closed room with Kanon's disappearance. "Beatrice" was supposed to create this room and make Kanon disappear. The mystery of where Kanon's corpse disappeared to is solved by Shkanontrice. It was up and moving around, Kanon only died because his existence is tied to Jessica's, if Kanon dies before Shannon, he will never leave a corpse, and vice versa. Then we have the Kanon who was not Kanon in the servant room. Again, easily explained.

Finally, we have the closed room which was locked from the inside with Shannon, George and Gohda. Both Kanon and Beatrice appear in this room in the fantasy scene. Again, with Shkanontrice, the answer becomes clear.

It seems to have a pretty big impact to me,

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269105

Nope. Only in Ep3, and if both of them can be 'dead' while still being able to walk around... well, I think that should be considered "cheating".

Both Ep1 and Ep2 become harder if Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Just think for a minute. Think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269076

That Shkanon has nothing to do with the mystery is really your own interpretation

No, it is Ryukishi's word. Yes, he said that this part was never needed in the first place.In the interview before the one you are talking about.
By the way, Shkannon have always been put as a key in EVERY holes. Something like Kanonzo or anything else would be more adapted for what ryukishi said. And is REALLY, REALLY less popular and "checked in the previous episode' holes" .

And one more time, Erika can also not exist in ep5. But this is another question, and we are talking about it since the beggining of this topic.

And by the way. Shkannontrice is TOO clear in ep6. Apparently, you are also reading Ryukishi's interviews. So you should remember that he said that he will not give a clear answer.
"if the answer is an apple, I will say that it is round and red". Or anything like that.

[Anonymous No.]

Ryu07 writes a detective mystery murder story. He has a problem though - how to make it certain that the entire internet, an entity as vast as it is obsessive, cannot solve it in days? He decides to get clever and battle this threat by throwing a lying narrator in the reader's way.

This turns out to be a grave miscalculation. People soon realize they cannot trust anything they read, and start up cooking harebrained theories that simply ignore the most of his work. So as a measure to fix this, he introduces red text. Now there is a body of unalienable truths for the reader to work with, and if any further idiocy would pop up, all he would need to do is shoot it down with more red. It works for a while.

But he decides to get clever again and uses red text in a dishonest, manipulative way. He probably feels a bit good about himself for a while. But then all the idiocy returns, and this time the red text is powerless against them. The theorists have learned that they should read the red text like the devil reads the bible, looking for any loophole no matter how assbrained. Ryu07 even encourages this sort of behavior by introducing bullshit like "Kinzo is a title that can be moved from person to person", which was soon extrapolated to mean, in effect, "names no longer mean anything". And now we have arrived at a spot where the major theories only make sense if even the detectives themselves are out to trick the readers and everything is said, and heard, in bad faith, down to definitions of words like "person". It's like a mystery written by Clinton during his congressional hearings: "define 'is'".

Lesson to learn, Ryu07: STOP TRYING TO BE CLEVER YOU FUCKING MORON.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269044
>"Even if welcome you" implies
It implies that by your interpretation.

>What you're doing here is trying to deny my line of logic by supposing my theory is true in order to do it. What an inconsistent argument.
I'm trying to show that your argument still leads to contradictions, therefore cannot be true.

>people are carrying Erika's corpse in and out of closed room so your theory works, I know, it's completely retarded, but you claim it.
I'm not claiming that, nice straw man.
Didn't you said that you are not aware of that discussions?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269133
>which was soon extrapolated to mean, in effect, "names no longer mean anything".
And then in episode 6 he tries to wrestle control back,
>All names refer only to the actual people!
Nobody listens though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269128
Episode 1:
Shannon's body isn't clearly seen by the detective.
Battler doesn't see Kanon's corpse.

Episode 2:
Kanon's corpse disappear for some reason AGAIN
Seemingly impossible closed room with Shannon and George, but Shannon's corpse has a big hole in the middle of the head, even the brain is spilling out.

No problem there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269061
What's wrong with it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269105
ep6 put a complete mess with this. Because Kanon "die" but not really die.
Basically, people are saying that personalities can die because Kanon died in a fantasy scene in ep6. Even if the red is still saying that he is alive right after this.
You could say that the trial between Kanon and Shannon happens in every episode, but it would not explain why, in the other episodes, Kanon is REALLY dead. While he is not dead after he died in ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269126

How did Shannon kill herself in Ep2?

How were Eva and Hideyoshi killed in Ep1? 'Kanon lied' is NOT an acceptable answer here.

How were Shannon and Kanon able to produce two corpses in Ep3? In other words, how did they fool the adults?

Why are they switching like this in the first place? What other reason could there be other than to escape red text?

THERE ARE HOLES EVERYWHERE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269139
Nice straw man? No, that must be what you claim. Explain to me the red about Erika going in and out of rooms if Erika is dead. If you DON'T claim that, I don't think I want to know what you do claim, because it's probably even worse. But maybe I'm forgetting you haven't read episode 6.

>I'm trying to show that your argument still leads to contradictions, therefore cannot be true.
If you try to say that, your theory can't be true either, I've shown that yours contradicts itself far more.

I acknowledge that Ryu07 plays with "person" and such. This is the only real flaw of Shkanon, but the fact that he does is clearly lampshaded with the last two lines of red in episode 6. It is impossible for Erika to both be the 18th person and the 17th in reality, in red, without some kind of wordplay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269124
>No theory given these days make any logical sense.
That's what Shkannon fags actually believe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269148
The problem is even before he started to play with the red. Anyone with a twisted enough mind could have a LOT of fun with Sayo/Shannon and Kanon/(joshua)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269161
There is no red that says "There were six corpses" nothing like that, it's always people. That there were 6 corpses is based on the parents perspectives, which proponents of the anti-Shkanon front always try to claim is absolutely flawless. The parents find 6 corpses in a row. Shannon is the first one. Kanon is the last one. Maybe it'd be a stronger argument if they found them both one after the other. By the sixth corpse, are they really paying that much attention, or can someone, eg, Nanjo, pull of a trick similar to Kanon and Hideyoshi's in episode 1, and also utilize the "place the key in the pocket, then 'discover'" it method that Battler supposes in episode 4?

Why is it not an acceptable answer, pray tell, other than the fact that you know it's the true answer and so you have to disqualify it so I have to explain via some other method? You're doing this everywhere. Explain why it's not a valid answer, give good reasons, don't try to shove it of with some implied reason that doesn't exist.

Kanon lied, he killed the both of them, the same way he killed the four later in the episode. Hideyoshi was a liability.

[Anonymous No.]

Shkanon is an awful theory and you should feel awful.

I wish we could discuss how the murders were done without this dumbass theory plugging up every thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269168
Nice straw man? No, that must be what you claim. Explain to me the red about Erika going in and out of rooms if Erika is dead. If you DON'T claim that, I don't think I want to know what you do claim, because it's probably even worse. But maybe I'm forgetting you haven't read episode 6.


Dead = doesn't exist.
She IS a title. Just like one of your damn personalities. So she can easily "take" another body. Who "become" Erika.

Ho. and I'm not the guy you were responding to. But I read ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269168

Erika can be a title.

Something interesting: Erika is only referred to by her full name in red when they are referring to her status as the Detective, her status as a non-culprit, or when discussing how she increases the person count.

At all other times, she is referred to only as "Erika", "Lady Erika", or "<Miss> Erika".

This cannot be unimportant.

[Anonymous No.]

Remember the 10th recommandment of Knox?

What would be against the theory that there should be two Kanons as twins exist while one of both is the mentioned 19-year old son of Natsuhi? I mean, well, there is the red truth that only Kanon can claim his own name, but if there are two and they always live with it there should be no contradiction, right...?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269192
So again, titles are being switched here and there even though "All names refer only to the actual people"? In the first place, your theory of Erika being someone else makes no sense - did you forget everyone was enclosed in two closed rooms at the time?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269198
The 19 year old son of Natsuhi wasn't born when his mother fell off a cliff, can't see him surviving that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269198
It should not. But it would be complicated with other knox rules. Especially the 8th one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269200

"All names refer only to the actual people" is apparently a mistranslation.

>>5269184

If Kanon and Genji were lying, it completely invalidates the previous scene.

Fake scenes can't be ENTIRELY fake. How are we supposed to solve anything otherwise? With random conjecture? That's how Battler tried to solve everything in the first four episodes, and it didn't get him very far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269161
>>How did Shannon kill herself in Ep2?
She didn't, the corpse had a big hole in the head, draw your own conclusion.

>>How were Eva and Hideyoshi killed in Ep1? 'Kanon lied' is NOT an acceptable answer here.
Actually, it is.

>>How were Shannon and Kanon able to produce two corpses in Ep3? In other words, how did they fool the adults?
Why were the corpses separated?
Why were the closed rooms made in such an elaborate way?
Shannon's body was the first one discovered, Kanon was the last, the parents had to go through the entire mansion between them.
Draw your own conclusion.

>>Why are they switching like this in the first place? What other reason could there be other than to escape red text?

Because she is mentally ILL, DID is such a thing.

I see no holes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269168
>I acknowledge that Ryu07 plays with "person" and such.
>It is impossible for Erika to both be the 18th person and the 17th in reality, in red, without some kind of wordplay.
>Ryu07 plays with "person" and such.
>impossible without some kind of wordplay
Damn, it's hopeless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269218
Scenes with Natsuhi & her fantasy friends get pretty damn fake. You're getting so far off base her coming up with your own rules. How about this:
>Shkanon(trice) doesn't make them harder to solve. In fact, if we look at episode 1 with Shkanontrice in mind, we know that there was no corpse of Shannon in the shed. So we know a death of "Shannon" was faked. The hardest mysteries in episode 1 would be the deaths of Kanon, and the deaths of four people when nobody should have been capable of killing them (Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Natsuhi). At the end of episode 1, Beatrice appears. With the supposition of Shkanontrice, it becomes very clear. Kanon faked his death - nobody ever said he died, everyone knows that. The Beatrice is Kanon, Kanon killed the four of them.
This isn't mere conjecture. If Shkanon is already killing these many people, where's the problem with him killing a couple more when he had perfect opportunity? There isn't one. How about this - the true part of the scene is that Shkanon broke the chain, and was the first to arrive on the scene. Being the murderer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269200
There, you should explain me where the problem is. Shkannon HAVE TO, if you want it to work, make "disappearing" the first personality when the second is going out. And then is excluded from "everyone". It is only the same thing here.
As far as it is a person in the room where EVERYONE ELSE is, there is not any problem.

And "All names refer only to the actual people" is completely ignored by Shkannon, and by the way, it work if you count Erika as a personality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269218
全ての名は、本人以外には名乗れない！！

It's not a bad translation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269221

"X was lying" is the biggest out in a story of this type. It's unacceptable and unfair.

If you want to go down this slippery slope, you might as well go ahead and disregard absolutely everything but the red text. After all, nothing REALLY says Battler's narration in Ep1-4 is reliable either, right?

Ah, and DID, or any mental illness, is both a terrible and unrealistic motive. DID doesn't work the way you think it does, and most mental patients aren't horribly violent.

There's an Agatha Christie story where the culprit's motive is basically "her genes made her evil". I have never been so disappointed in a mystery, and it'll be much the same here if Shkanon is the actual answer.

It's just such a pointless solution.

[Anonymous No.]

>>Because she is mentally ILL, DID is such a thing.


.. I hope you are conscious or what you just said?
Your first points were rather good, but this sentence is just...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269184
>>5269221
The last Kanon's corpse was in the chapel, which has a single key, that was found in a sealed envelope along with Kinzo's corpse in the boiler room. The chapel was locked, there is no way Shkannon can get there.

>Because she is mentally ILL, DID is such a thing.
>no holes

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269268
>>5269274
What is the problem?
You think Shannon is sane or something?
Having DID means being completely and utterly crazy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269248
It doesn't work. Kanon, Battler and Erika = three bodies. Bodies. Tell me, how can Erika be the magical body-skipping detective when all other possible bodies she could inhabit were locked in closed rooms, but she was the only one to enter this room?

Besides, Shannon and Kanon do not subvert this red. They're the only ones they don't. Because the actual person Kanon IS Shannon, and the actual person Shannon IS Kanon. You can only get around this red when you suppose certain people are the same, and this is only possible with Shannon and Kanon, since every other possible combination has been seen together. It's on an entirely different level from the type of theory the red was used to deny in the first place - that separate people sharing the same name could cause holes in the red. Erika's exact theory was that Kanon's true name is George, so there were two Georges.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269237

I make a distinction between "magic scenes" and "fake scenes", but whatever.

With Natsuhi's delusions, see... those are delusions. Natsuhi wants to believe Kinzo is still alive, so he is. Natsuhi credits The Witch as inspiration for her plans, so The Witch appears.

It's different from Genji and Kanon actually discovering corpses.

Furthermore, I really don't want to believe that the servants are directly responsible for the murders. It's too easy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269257
I'll be more disappointed if the body-switching act of Erika was true. Shkanon is the lesser of two evils.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269257
To me, even only

Knox's 4th
No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.


Would completely erase Shkannon from the possibilities.
And if it happens to be Shkannon, it will be laughable, because it would mean than even the author doesn't searched for the "long scientific explanation".
Well. Not like if I was a Shkannonfag anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269257
>"X was lying" is the biggest out in a story of this type. It's unacceptable and unfair.

The theory examined is that Kanon is the murderer, or at least one of them. Why would he not tell lies to throw people off his track?

>If you want to go down this slippery slope, you might as well go ahead and disregard absolutely everything but the red text.

See the screencap at >>5268697

[Anonymous No.]

>>Why were the corpses separated?
They died in separate places. Or there was a chase. Diversion and distraction are also possible: have them waste time having to search for the other, or make them think there is a second fake crime scene.

>>Why were the closed rooms made in such an elaborate way?
Because closed doors are a famous feature of mysteries - the more impenetrable, the more devious the puzzle. Usually.

>>Shannon's body was the first one discovered, Kanon was the last, the parents had to go through the entire mansion between them.
My suggestions were above.

>>Draw your own conclusion.
That's why it's all a theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269284
Just like Kanon can have a different real name, Erika can have a different real name of someone familiar to us.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269291
No dine, no fair.

Beatrice owns the gold. If you suppose Shkanontrice, Kanon owns the gold. Solving the epitaph is also generally believed to make you the head. So we could say Shkanontrice is the head of the family. Genji exclusively serves the head of the family. Even if you don't assume this, and only assume Shkanon, Genji is already covering up for Shkanon, since he'd clearly be aware of the situation. So how much of a stretch is it to say he was part of a similar mutual lie involving the chain?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269313
Erika didn't exist prior to episode 5.
Tell me how someone on the island could get a new name just for episode 5 and 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269283

No, DID means having two or more distinct personalities inhabiting the same body. While it certainly falls under the definition of "insanity", it's nothing like fictional batshit insanity, which is closest in nature to schizophrenia.

If anyone on the island is "insane" in that sense, it's Natsuhi, who isn't a culprit, and Eva, who only goes TRULY nuts when everyone she loves is dead.

Not Shkanon.

>>5269302

Well, that's just the slippery slope I mean. Ep6 shows you can't solve the mystery with just red alone. You NEED the context and you NEED other hints, as unreliable as they may be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269313
Impossible, because everyone else we're familiar with were in this closed rooms. But this supposition is pretty stupid. This assumes someone on the island has an Erika personality, and yet:
>She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
It's once again another convenient invention that defies the previous gameboards. So they just developed it specially just for games 5 and 6? Just like Erika was conveniently non-existent in episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269320

Because, again, if that's the case, why bother showing us that scene at all? Why not just cut to the servant alerting Battler and co. of Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269284
Because she have the body of someone in the EVERYBODY ELSE room. And because ERIKA is the ACTIVE personality, we don't care about the other person. It is pretty much the same as this Shkannon crap. Everyone else = Every other human being here. The corpse where Erika is didn't count, because it IS Erika


Besides, Shannon and Kanon do not subvert this red. They're the only ones they don't. Because the actual person Kanon IS Shannon, and the actual person Shannon IS Kanon.

And then it contradict other reds, who are implying they are different beings. Magical.
They count as ONE for the name, but they are dead twice. Fun.

Anyway. Yes, And where should it be different for another personality?
They are not the only one. If you assume that Erika is a personality as well, it also work. If it wouldn't work with Erika, it wouldn't work with Shkannon. It is not SO complicated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269343
This is getting even more stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269284
And must I remind you that one of the rooms doesn't have ANY name mentionned? Only a " everyone else"? Without even a number?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269342
>Because, again, if that's the case, why bother showing us that scene at all?

TO MISLEAD THE READER. GOD.

Within the context of the story, these are the scenes Beatrice shows to Battler to mislead him and make him believe in magic. On a more general level, they exist to mislead _us._ How can you have a hard time accepting/figuring this out?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269334

This is assuming that Erika exists at all on the gameboard level, as a personality or otherwise.

Why couldn't the title of "Erika" be a special rule that Bern and Lambda developed specifically for their new games? Why couldn't the name "Erika" be a title referring to "the detective"?

Go through all of the reds referring to Erika in Ep5. Replace "Erika" with "the detective". Watch as most of them still make sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269323
It was said in ep5, and human-Erika can exist (live) in that episode.

For metaworld, where all the red takes place, that doesn't matter, because it can be simply proclaimed by gm. And in the "real" world we have an unreliable narration.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269355
Go read Ryukishi's interview. Fantasy scene must NOT be ignored.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269364

Of course he would say that. His misleading wouldn't work otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

Come to think of it, it would be just like Ryu07 to say 'hints' in his interviews that are blatant lies.

[Anonymous No.]

in this case you can also say that the knox rules are useless, and that the red is a lie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269370
Most of the time he didn't lie, he is only EXTREMELY vague.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269343
The "everyone else" room is the room that remained closed until the end. It is the closed room that was completely and truly closed. In other words, if Erika was in the everyone else room, then she wouldn't be able to get out. It's impossible for her. And again, this is a convenient personality that has been created specifically by someone for episode 5 and 6, just for you. For someone who claims to have read episode 6, your understanding of it is beyond poor.

Shannon and Kanon subvert it. You see, if Shkanon is true, it is only logical that wherever Kanon is, so is Shannon, unless one of the two is dead. Therefore, if I say "Shannon is in this room" and "everyone else" is in another, "everyone else" doesn't include Kanon since he's Shannon. They subvert it because the red wasn't made for them. It was made for people with two bodies who share the same name, it was made for Erika's "Kanon's name is George, there were two Georges in the room" theory. It's an assumed one person being two, an entirely different matter from an assumed two people actually being one.

And of course Shannon and Kanon can die more than once. Isn't this shown in every episode? Why do we never see Kanon's corpse? Even in episode 4, where Battler finds absolutely everyone's corpse, he's the one exception. It's because he doesn't need to leave one, as long as Shannon survives.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269361
>>Why couldn't the title of "Erika" be a special rule that Bern and Lambda developed specifically for their new games? Why couldn't the name "Erika" be a title referring to "the detective"?

Yeah, you really want to make Umineko far worse than it is.
Do you realize what shitty writing this would be if it was true?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269355

See >>5269364 .

Also, it's dishonest and unfair. If you're going to show Battler/the readers a fake scene, there has to be some nugget of truth to it. Otherwise, the scene has no value, and the relevant mystery becomes basically unsolvable.

If I completely disregard any scene not narrated by Battler (even scenes that he is present for but not narrating) then, well, I can make any theory I want. And that's probably not how we're supposed to solve this game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269361
It works in episode 5. Not in episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269381
A shitty writing would, for me, be shkannon and his DID-who-doesn't-exist-in-reality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269382
Didn't we already point to the nugget of truth? Kanon cut the chain. Kanon entered the room first. There's your nugget. Instead of entirely disregarding it, it's a mutual lie with a little bit of truth, just like episode 5.

[Anonymous No.]

While you, shkannonfags here, answer this: >>5256396

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269372

We can't really discount those either, since the only argument we have in favor of trusting them is "he wouldn't be stupid enough to break the only thing making this shit potentially possible to solve". Except that he already did exactly that once already...

In any case, going by the most conservative and common-sense interpretation of things, red text can be trusted, knox rules can be trusted, and since knox rules say the detective can be trusted, we can trust the white-text scenes where Battler is present in 1-4 and Erika in 5-6.

The rest, however, are completely untrustworthy. Probably not all of them are lies, and they may contain hints about motivations and such, but they certainly cannot be used as proof of anything and if your theory is based only on non-detective white, or contractics detective-white, red or knox, your theory is worthless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269381

Why is this a bad thing? Why is Shkanon preferable to this?

This theory makes FAR less assumptions, doesn't rely on a poor understanding of mental illnesses, and most importantly, is based entirely on the meta-level.

This way, we don't have to modify the gameboard at all.

Isn't this far better than everything, absolutely everything, being the fault of a jealous, lunatic maid?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269395
That's perfectly fine. Kanon was created to try and obtain Jessica's love, and he failed. He loses the duel. In episode 6:
Beatrice can say why she loves Battler
Battler can say why he loves Beatrice
Shannon can say why she loves George,
George can say why he loves Shannon,
Kanon can say why he loves Jessica and finally
Jessica CANNOT say why she loves Kanon. She's the only one.

In a word, you're right, he can't obtain her love, and he doesn't. Jessica's love for Kanon is a false one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269382
>If you're going to show Battler/the readers a fake scene, there has to be some nugget of truth to it.

No. You. Don't. This is a rule that you made up and appears nowhere in the game.

Hiding the truth is in and of itself an entirely and absolutely valid use of scenes in both a mystery novel and in the witches' plans. A scene doesn't need to do anything other than distract you. Nothing says it should. Nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269381
It was hinted many times, that the witches play very dirty with Beato's gameboard. After all they already introduced the new rule, the new character and the new detective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269399
>This way, we don't have to modify the gameboard at all.
And here is the entire crux of the anti-shkanon argument. "It's alright to accept all this stupid reasoning and all these wordplay tricks, as long as my gameboard isn't touched, it's fine, it's fine, all my characters are still intact, Erika doesn't count."

It's just an appeal to the love of character, and breaks down in actual debate. In fact, you're probably more able to present this theory BECAUSE you haven't read episode 6 and so at this point the episode doesn't even matter to you, you can butcher it as much as you want, have Erika jumping in and out of perfect closed rooms with her magical body-jumping detective skills, or have somebody carrying her corpse around, have her fade in and out of existence because to you, episode 6 doesn't exist. Yet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269392

If you want to make Kanon and Genji into culprits, yes, this is fine.

But I just don't think that they are. It's too obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269378
convenient personality?
So what is Shkannon?
YOUR understanding of YOUR own theory seems to be rather poor.
And Erika is excluded for the "everybody else" anyway. So again, WHERE is the problem supposed to be, here?
It is not EVEN a problem of subverting it or not.
SHKANON, IN ORDER TO WORK, HAVE TO ACCEPT AN THAT AN INACTIVE PERSONALITY DON'T COUNT. Umineko is not ONLY Ep6.
So if it HAVE to work with Shkannon, it HAVE to work with someone else.


Yeah, they can die more that once. So they are two people. so "people" = "personality". But suddenly, when we are talking about names, there we don't have to pick the name of the PERSONALITY, but the name of the BODY.

A really "practical solution", isn't it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269420
By this point it should be obvious. Episode 6's welcome screen says it's not a hint, it's a confession. Ryu07 said in an interview that he gave hints that bordered on answers in episode 6. He said that episode 4 was all you actually needed to solve it. By this point, there shouldn't be any traps, the argument should be obvious. People shouldn't be looking for a revolutionary answer that they didn't see coming in the slightest, you'll be disappointed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269432

And in ep 7, suddenly:

>>>/rs/Thought_controlling_parasites_exist_on_Rokkenjima

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269427
Shkanon is convenient? No, Shkanon is evidenced across all episodes - most particularly with the oddities of them never appearing together, nor Kanon's corpse ever appearing. Your argument still requires Erika to be a developed personality suddenly in episode 5 and 6, while Shkanon is consistent through all episodes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269432
Noe, but ryukishi also said that he will not give a clear answer

[Anonymous No.]

>>5256396
>>5269395
Are you saying that 2 women can't love each others?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269445
He said that earlier, now he's saying he'll give a "ruthless answer" in episode 7.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269382
See Prison Break in ep4 and try to find a truth there.

>>5269402
Then what's the point of the duel, if he lost by default?

>>5269432
And yet he said that very few people solved it, despite its "obviousness".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269445

A "clear answer" would be something along the lines of "Kumasawa did all the murders, this was possible because Natsuhi is a title that gets given to the first person who wears a bad wig during a day... (5 page explanation follows)." Merely giving plentiful hints is not an answer in itself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269456
No no, he doesn't want to give an answer. He want umineko to be a thinking game. Go read his interviews, he was talking about the nature of his work.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269459
But he's saying many people uncovered the key. We just went over this. "Shkanon" or "Shkanontrice" does not suddenly solve Umineko, it's just a piece of the truth. You can't deny every theory by saying nobody solved the entire mystery. You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269464
You're talking about a very old interview. I'm talking about a new one. Like I said, ruthless answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269382
>If I completely disregard any scene not narrated by Battler (even scenes that he is present for but not narrating) then, well, I can make any theory I want.

...Provided that you do not contradict red, Knox, or Battler's perceptions. Try it out; you'll be surprised how very, very little room it leaves you. I have from the very beginning been disregarding everything that isn't red and I haven't got a believable theory yet.

And besides, how exactly would the knowledge that "some unknown parts of scenes are true" help you in the slightest, when there is no way for you to tell the true parts from the false?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269432

Tsumihoroboshi also said crap like "the difficulty is zero".

Tsumihoroboshi is EXTREMELY misleading in a rather clever way, in that it presented the correct answer as something ludicrous.

You've stopped thinking. Remember all those lines about how it's important to never stop thinking?

If Battler's game is constructed so as to hide a crucial truth about Beatrice, WHY does the entire story of that episode support Shkanon?

>>5269442

Actually, there are no brain parasites. Hinamizawa Syndrome is a brain disease that causes people to become extremely paranoid, believe conspiracy theories, detect invisible creatures, and use really weird metaphors.

Very different.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269472
I also read this one. But even in ep7, maybe it will be an answer which will be a "last clue" because it will give the answer to anyone who have thinked about it enough. It doesn't mean that he will show it directly in the story.
Well, anyway it doesn't apply to ep 1-6, so let's wait and see.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269495
>If Battler's game is constructed so as to hide a crucial truth about Beatrice, WHY does the entire story of that episode support Shkanon?
To make it a fair mystery? What you're essentially saying is that we may as well pack up and go home, since we won't be able to discover the answer anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269513
There is a difference between hints and " HO LOOK YOU ARE SO STUPID IT IS THE ANSWER".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269513

Battler isn't even trying to construct a fair mystery, he's trying to end the game so everyone can go home.

Shkanon as presented in Battler's game isn't even a mystery, it's plainly obvious. And this is exactly what makes it suspect.

The answer was never this evident in Higurashi, as I just finished saying. You're just blindly accepting what's thrown at you, and I don't think that's the way to solve this mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269522
>> First tea party


The MOST funny fact is that.
If you look at it, MOST of the people give up in ep2 because of the fantasy element and were not giving a damn about the truth..
now, we are in ep 2 of Chiru. And what are people doing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269492

The knowledge that some pieces of fake scenes are true is still better than denying every single thing not narrated by Battler or in red.

If that's all you're doing, no wonder you haven't yet stumbled across an answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269522
As opposed to blindly accepting what's thrown at me, you're turning a blind eye to whatever's thrown at you, and dancing around it with whatever you can come up with, as long as you don't have to accept it.

Stop drawing comparisons between Higurashi and Umineko. Just stop. Ryu07 has clearly said that people who've read Higurashi will have a harder time solving Umineko, and yet people keep trying to use Higurashi's trends as means for Umineko debate. When it comes to Umineko, you may as well try to forget that you know Higurashi exists.

>>5269521
There aren't any hints, only confession.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269531

Yes, thank you. We've been told from the very beginning to never accept what is obvious or easy.

Never stop thinking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269533
How about I throw this back at you? Where's the nugget of truth in all the scenes with Beatrice, like where Beatrice appears in a closed room with Shannon, George and Gohda and summons Kanon? When only those inside the room had the opportunity to commit those murders, if you discount Genji, who is said to be not a murder, though you may argue he is in all episodes except 1. Where's the nugget of truth in all the Erika scenes, when we're supposed to accept Erika is just a convenient construction that is just somebody else who will not be named? I wonder who Erika is supposed to be in these theories, anyway. She can't be Jessica, it'd make no sense. She can't even be a young girl, she'd have to be one of the aunts, or something. Much more far fetched than Genji and Kanon stretching the truth a little.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269534

Actually, despite what Ryu07 says, Umineko and Higurashi have followed a similar structure up until now.

And I believe in Shkanon, once. Then I realized it didn't explain a damn thing.

Instead of Shkanon making things easier to explain, you instead have to use various hints to explain Shkanon. That, to me, isn't how it should work.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269534
This is the title screen. Nothing else.
And go read ryukishi's interviews. I don't know for ep 7, But I know what he said for ep 5 and 6. Except if he changed his mind in one month. Which is really unlikely.

>>Stop drawing comparisons between Higurashi and Umineko. Just stop. Ryu07 has clearly said that people who've read Higurashi will have a harder time solving Umineko,


He also said that higurashi will be a THINKING GAME. So it should even be HARDER than Higurashi. You're forgetting this point. Yeah, it will be harder. Because Higurashi was not meant to be a thinking game, so the real answer was more "obvious" ( even if it was not what the game was saying).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269533
>The knowledge that some pieces of fake scenes are true is still better than denying every single thing not narrated by Battler or in red.

How? If anything, it can only make things harder, since after that you'll have to search every single scene for a "nugget" that doesn't contradict your theory, whereas normally you'd only need to check the red. And you can't get hints from it any more than you can by simply assuming that everything can be bullshit: trying to construct any kind of a coherent, non-contradictory whole out of unknown pieces of a couple thousand pieces of text is an impossible task.

And finally, like somebody above already said, there are scenes that sure as fuck are 100% fake. Like the prison break.

Some of the potentially fake scenes may be real, but as a whole, only an idiot would trust them because they are by their very definition potentially fake. Your "every scene must have useful information because anything else would be just meeeaaaaaannn" rule is nonsense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269539
And then whenever you think you find something, someone can just turn around and say "never stop thinking." Where, exactly, has the thought stopped here?

The thought has truly stopped with people who think Erika's scenes with Shannon and Kanon have any kind of merit, people who think there couldn't possibly be a reason why the same people who hide Kinzo's death no matter what hide that two people are the same, and all sorts of these little things that they may take as evidence that Shkanon is false because they haven't thought at all.

"Don't stop thinking" may be a very noble ideal and all, and you might make yourself feel better by saying it, but all "don't stop thinking" is equating to here is ignoring the possibly that any popular theory is true, and refusing to think about the reasoning these theories can lead to.

It's just turning your head away from anything. It's "don't stop thinking, don't stop thinking, this isn't the answer, that isn't the answer, nothing's the answer"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269559
That Umineko*, sorry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269559
>He also said that higurashi will be a THINKING GAME. So it should even be HARDER than Higurashi.

No, it should be easier. Higurashi wasn't a thinking game specifically because it was _impossible to solve_ until the answer was handed on a platter. It withheld necessary information.

In order to be a proper puzzle, Umineko needs to be easier than Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269559
He didn't just say Umineko would be harder. He specifically said that people who read Higurashi would be at a disadvantage. If that doesn't tell you to stop trying to compare the two for evidence, what does?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269574
The problem is not about stopping thinking. The problem is that you don't have to think about ANYHTING in ep6. REALLY not about ANYTHING. It is all " yeah and it was like that for 6 eps, now take this and go away".
If Shkanon was more subtle, it would REALLY be less suspicious. But ep6 is DAMN too clear.
Never stop thinking could block you without an answer,but here you don't have to think anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269568

Just because everything CAN be bullshit doesn't mean that everything IS.

And yes, every scene should have some useful information, regardless of what it is. Otherwise, there is no point to the scene's existence other than simply being lolmisleading, and that isn't very good writing.

Good mysteries hide clues everywhere, even in scenes that otherwise seem valueless, and in Umineko, clues ARE everywhere.

If you haven't already, go read Ep1 again. There's setup for the next five games hidden all over the place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269588
To me, a thinking game is harder that a story where everything is said in the end, by definition. Because it is supposed to be a game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269585
True. But in the case of umineko, Ryukishi will only give us pieces. Not complete answers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269601
If you try to solve Higurashi, thinking it's a mystery, you'll never get anywhere. You could sit back and enjoy the show. That would be easy.

Then you have Umineko. Since we're told it's a mystery again and again, you should be able to solve it if you try hard enough, it's not impossible, like Higurashi. Then, you also have the option of sitting back and enjoying the show.

If Ryu07 still plans to leave the answer ambiguous, it's different. It's still probably the wrong move though. We could be here even after episode 7 debating back and forth over what the truth is, nobody will ever be proven wrong and right, there will be people on both sides who think they've found a comprehensive truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269595

Well, this is what I mean by having "stopped thinking".

Just because you think you have the answer doesn't mean you should only pay attention to things that support it and ignore all things that don't, which is what the Shkanon proponents are doing.

If your theory is contradicted by evidence, it's not the evidence that is wrong. Instead, you should re-examine your theory in light of the new evidence. That's basic science, and that's what "don't stop thinking" means.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269600
>And yes, every scene should have some useful information, regardless of what it is. Otherwise, there is no point to the scene's existence other than simply being lolmisleading, and that isn't very good writing.

So, your argument hinges on both
1) your criteria of "good writing" being true and
2) Ryukishi being a good writer?

Yeah, I think prosecution rests.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269595
It's silly for something to be "too clear" at this point. The thinking game was for episodes 1-4. By episode 4, the game was on. Episode 6 would even imply you might have been able to solve it with episodes 1 and 2 alone.

It looks like everyone failed that though. Looking back, Shkanontrice may seem obvious, but nobody ever thought anything like that back then, and even with Shkanon, people had different reasons to believe it, and it was more disjointed from the rest of the story than it is now. The backstory and the significance of it is starting to fall into place.

Ry07 said he gave several hints that verged on answers in episode 6. If they verge on answers, then they should be obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269637

Well, then Umineko is unsolvable, much like Higurashi supposedly is. (It's not, the culprit in Higurashi is very easy to figure out if you pay attention to an important clue that's just handed to you in the middle of the third arc.)

But no, I don't think that any writer would sabotage their work so utterly as to invalidate every scene that doesn't fit with the solution merely by saying that "X was lying".

If Umineko can be solved just by assuming that everyone was lying, all the time, then a comprehensive answer would be obvious at this point. But it's not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269635
>Just because you think you have the answer doesn't mean you should only pay attention to things that support it and ignore all things that don't, which is what the Shkanon proponents are doing.
Hardly. This is what the people who are against it do. If left alone, away from the few who strongly defend Shkanon, /jp/ would probably disregard the theory, without any real logic for doing so. There are even people who think it has be thoroughly disproved. Every thread I step into, the same old arguments are presented against Shkanon, and I have to show these people how to look closer at the situation, because they clearly haven't thought about it at all.
For example, you'll get these kinds of points:
"Right Shkanon is true and all the parents in episode 3 just thought it would be cool to lie to Battler, they saw 6 corpses so unless they lied it's disproven.
or:
"For Shkanon to be true everyone on the island except Battler would have to be in on it, how the fuck are they supposed to not notice after knowing Kanon for 3 years?"
or:
"Why does nobody say anything when deaths are happening and Shkanon is on the loose? That disproves it."

There are rational arguments against all three of these points, and that the points show up again and again at all is proof that their side has stopped thinking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269652

Actually, I think this is what Ryu means by Higurashi fans having more trouble with Umineko.

In Higurashi, the answer was handed to you. For Umineko, Ryu has said that he wanted to keep people guessing until the very end, like in, you know, a real mystery.

So why would something like Shkanon, something that's just handed to us with a big tag saying THE ANSWER, be the real solution to everything?

Van Dine would be crying if he were still alive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269679
Yeah, and every single time you're not answering anything specific, except some meta stuff and straw man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269683
No Dine?

And where is the part that says "THE ANSWER!" on Shkanon? Isn't it the anti-Shkanon people in this thread who have claimed it solves little, to absolutely nothing? That isn't an "answer". It's as much an answer as Kinzo being already dead is an answer.

The people who are against Shkanon are the ones who really want to follow Higurashi's line of thought. The culprit's going to come out of nowhere and surprise them, and it's going to be someone who's cool and badass and a milf like Rosa or Kyrie. They can't accept Shkanon because you can reasonably reach it as any kind of answer answer. They can't accept it because it isn't a surprise, they can't accept it because it's got so many clues, and so on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269679

But this is what I meant by Shkanon having to be explained rather than the other way around.

You have to make astounding leaps in logic to argue against the points you've outlined above, most commonly the "personalities can die" thing.

The REAL answer, if it exists, would explain everything elegantly and without obvious, insane contradictions. No one, anywhere, has suggested anything like that yet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269690
I'm answering plenty of specifics, and if I misrepresent your argument, it's only because I give your argument more consistency than you deserve credit for - the reality is even more flawed. You come up with new justifications all the time, because your reasoning is only born with the purpose of trying to escape Shkanon, it's always something new and something that has no connection to your previous points, and you always ignore what denies the whole line of thought. At best, you can bring up a few vague concepts and try to apply them as concrete rules, like saying Erika must not exist because of Knox 1st and Erika being the culprit in episode 6, or the nuggets of truth principal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269662

Well look who ski-jumped off the slippery slope and was never seen again.

I suggest you look back at what was actually argued by you and me.

You argue that every scene, in a novel that we already know is chock full of sheer lies to the reader, must be at least partially trustworthy, just because otherwise it wouldn't be "fair" and "good writing".

I argue that that's just a fucking made-up restriction that isn't based on anything other than what you wish was true, and that any people trying to solve Umineko have their hands full trying to satisfy the restrictions that actually exist without you throwing in more on top of it.

Your tools for solving this mystery have been laid out bare by Ryu07: red text, knox rules, and detective's perspective. Anything else is suspicious and potentially false, meaning you must not rust it. Even if there are true parts, and there certainly must be, you have absolutely no reason to trust them as they're impossible to separate from the lies. Red, knox, detective. Red, knox, detective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269699
I believe one of the explanations about linked rooms is yours? You didn't answer: >>5269274

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269694
To deny Shkanon outright, you need to stop your reasoning and take all points to the extreme to make the deception look more cunning than it really is.

On the other hand, personalities die is a conclusion that can easily be reached by Kanon's corpse never appearing. Kanon only really dies when Shannon does, or when Jessica does. Episode 1, he doesn't really die, the red shows that. Episode 2, he dies as soon as Jessica does. Episode 3, he dies with Shannon. Episode 4, if you count the victims with the twilights, Jessica is the 8th, and Kanon is said to be the 9th in red, he again dies just as Jessica does.

It is hardly as much of a leap of logic as people try to take when they go against it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269691

Yup. That's exactly it.

Shkanon is both a terrible, terrible culprit and a terrible, terrible villain. If it turns out to be true, no one will be the least bit surprised, and the feeling of being trolled is exactly why I enjoy reading mysteries.

So yes, I don't want Shkanon to exist simply because the story will suffer for it.

George, Jessica, Kyrie, Rosa, etc, however, make fantastic villains, specifically because they'd be unexpected.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269714
Shkanon wasn't in the chapel. Didn't I say since it was the sixth corpse discovered, if people had taken less interest in seeing each and every corpse by that point, after having scrambled through the mansion, it would be easy for one of them, eg, Nanjo, to trick the others?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269718
Like I said, it's not about logic. Everyone just wants a villain who's unexpected and well liked. Let me make it clear that I don't like Shkanon. I just think it's the truth, I'm being realistic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269701

And I'm saying that only relying on those things isn't going to get you anywhere. Remember the "without love, the truth cannot be seen" bit, as much as I hate hearing about it? Remember how it was recalling that statement that set him onto the path of discovering the answer to begin with?

But, bah, we're not going to convince each other of anything. Let's stop. The thread is on autosage anyway.

>>5269716

But personalities can't die in real life, even with DID.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269731

If I wanted to be realistic, I'd believe in Shkanon too, but... I have more faith in Ryukishi than that.

I don't want to accept that he'd go to all this trouble of creating a mystery, deny that he'd give us a direct solution, and then just go and give us the answer two episodes before the end.

It's just far too easy. It reeks of troll.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269716
>Episode 1, he doesn't really die, the red shows that.
**All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!**
No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon, BECAUSE (because of 'in short' part) they all have alibis. Dead people's alibis can be faked, if those people aren't really dead. After all, you're saying that Shannon faked her death. If we assume, just for a minute, that they are different people, then it must be possible for her, right? Even if they are not, the "confirmation" for the other dead can be circumvented as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269731
Shkannon can't be true if umineko is a mystery. It's as simple as that.
You could say that " yeah, but DID in umineko works this way", but then you could do the same for pretty much anything when you need it.

Still, Ep 6 was still supposed to be a " find out the answer!". And Shkannon is a "blatant answer" to most of the closed rooms (not every one of them, though) and to many things, but mainly who Beatrice is supposed to be. Which is one of the heart of the story. Umineko's mystery is not only a mystery about murders. To me, the whole mystery about Beatrice and Battler's past should also be in the "mystery", maybe even more that the murders, and not throwed to the reader like in a supermarket.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269746
You shouldn't look to real life to explain the trends here. Even if you do, psychology isn't an exact science, mental illnesses are only defined by a broad set of symptoms, there is debate as to whether or not some disorders exist at all, or whether two varieties of one disorder should be considered their own disorders, or whether two disorders are the same, and so on. You're not going to find a list of all the facts about what mental illness can and cannot be.

As I understand it, rather than personalities being killed off with DID, they are merged back into the original. The original personality of Shkanontrice is Shannon. Shannon divides her own soul, or personality, into Beatrice and Kanon. Stepping away from the theory for a moment, someone who loved Battler but could no longer wait for him, at least, split their personality into two - one of them being a Beatrice personality.
Now, once Shannon's soul is three, the original Shannon is not the same Shannon she was when all three parts are one, but she is called Shannon nonetheless. Shannon could no longer wait for love, she created Beatrice to wait in her place. The two other personalties are to seek out potential loves to fill the gap Battler left. Kanon goes after Jessica, Shannon after George.

If these personalities merged again, then wouldn't they still be "Shannon"? It was Shannon originally, anyway. "Killed off" is just one interpretation. You could say Kanon was just assimilated into Shannon since he no longer had a purpose, since Jessica was dead, and the new Shannon was somewhere between the original and the split, two thirds human instead of three or one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269724
# Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269774
That's a pretty big stretch. However, Shannon may have an alibi in her non-existence at that point. A true alibi is proof of non-existence as the scene of the crime at the time of the crime, which makes it impossible for the one with the alibi to be the culprit. If someone does not exist AT ALL, then don't they have an absolutely perfect alibi?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269791
I don't see the problem. There's no red that says each one is in their own unique room. Shannon and Kanon are both victims in side the rooms, but the room they're in is one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269778
Shkanon can't be false if Umineko is a mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269784

How were we supposed to figure this out? Isn't this the sort of thing Knox 4 is supposed to prevent?

DID is a very dangerous thing to mess with in fiction because it's so poorly understood. It may not even exist. It's a terrible thing to introduce into a mystery.

>>5269774

This only works if you use a certain definition of "alibi".

Does someone having an "alibi" mean that they are innocent of the relevant crime? Or can the alibi be faked and still count for the purposes of the red?

This is why Battler is incompetent. He never asks questions like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269823
>**All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!**
The "in short" (also could be translated as "in other words") would say the second sentence is an extension of the first two, not new information in itself. So an "alibi" would have to be something that makes it impossible for them to kill.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269724
>>5269799
>>5269804

Recap on episode 3 first twilight

* The relatives broke the window to the parlor. Shannon's corpse was found in the parlor. She had a master key in her pocket that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the second floor guestroom.
* The relatives moved to the second floor. in the Guestroom Kumusawa's corpse was discovered. She had a master key that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the third floor waiting room.
* The relatives moved to the third floor. In the waiting room Gohda's corpse was discovered. He had a master key that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the second floor honored guestroom.
* The relatives moved to the second floor. In the honored guestroom Genji's corpse was discovered. He had a master key that the relatives collected. in the envelope was the key to the underground boiler room.
* The relatives moved to underground boiler room. In the underground boiler room Kinzo's corpse was discovered. In an envelope the key to the chapel was found.
* The relatives moved to the chapel. Kanon's corpse was found in the chapel. He had a master key in his pocket that the relatives collected. In the envelope the key to the first floor parlor was found. With this the reconstruction of all six closed rooms is complete.

>The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!

So the way it works

Shannon > Kumasawa > Gohda > Genji > Kinzo > Kanon > Shannon

if you have love you should be able to solve this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269799
>>5269823
I'll admit, it's not a very good sounding, but I think it's still possible, and we shouldn't neglect this possibility, saying that Kanon's fake is absolutely proven.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269830
We only have what Virgilia says about this to go on. And we have Virgilia deceiving Battler in the very same episode. In fact, Battler's theory for solving the room in episode 4 would question Virgilia's truth in this reconstruction, and she calls the boiler room a closed room when it is not. Her word is hardly red.

Furthermore, what does the "discovery" of the corpses actually mean? In episode 5, we have dispute over what it means to "witness" corpses and whether this actually means the corpses were there. "X discovered corpse here" compared to "There is a corpse here".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269841
Lambda basically said in the episode 4 tea party that none of the mysteries were solved. She was ready to deny everything he theorized in 3-4 before Bern stopped her.

Besides I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just posting the reconstruction. The "ackowledge it" reds throughout episode 6 should show that context is important. Otherwise the closed room definitions and remote murder definitions, which are all in white text would have no meaning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5269868
They seem to have questionable meaning, since the boiler room cannot possibly be a closed room, there's not even a lock on the back door, it can't suit the closed room definition.

Context is definitely important, but so is the detective's witnessing of the crime. That's why episode 1 and 2 are so valuable on the mystery side of things. When Battler does not witness an important event at all, you have to wonder how exactly it all played out, and whether there is a reason why he was not allowed to witness it.

As for the episode 1 case, if the dead are given an alibi, that alibi simply seems to come from the fact that they are dead. Kanon's death should have been possible for Kinzo, otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm sorry, don't mean to derail the current topic. But do the patterns or trigger events cease in Episode 6?

e.g. When Genji dies, the magic circles no longer appear. When Maria is present in a room, the letters of discord show up..