/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

sup /jp/
I think I just discovered a way to time travel.
pic related, all you have to do is click on the pic then place one hand on top of Reimu and the other on top of Marisa. be sure not to cover Alice.

[Anonymous No.]

i see what you did there OP

[Anonymous No.]

I DONT GET IT

[Suigin !fKazami5bE No.]

oh you bastard

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114186

[Anonymous No.]

I don't-
Oh.
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.]

OHHHHH

ohu.jpg

[Anonymous No.]

Wait, I don't get it...

[Anonymous No.]

?????

[Anonymous No.]

I see what you did there
not really

[Anonymous No.]

...You lost me.

[Anonymous No.]

Now I'm sad. Fuck.

[CollegeOtaku !ABCDEDEZEY No.]

Alice is laughing at your small dick

[Anonymous No.]

What? What does this have to do with... oh.

;_;

[CollegeOtaku !ABCDEDEZEY No.]

and now I get it, that's it, i'm outta here, ;_;

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

took me a while to understand, but that's sadly true

[Anonymous No.]

Amidoinitrite? No seriously though, that's pretty sad.

[Anonymous No.]

Someone please explain.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114139

I'm not sure I get it.

Is it the whole "Alice will outlive them all" thing?

[Anonymous No.]

MARISA AND REIMU ARE HUMAN AND WILL THUS DIE OF OLD AGE IN THE NEXT 100 YEARS

ALICE IS A YOUKAI AND WILL THUS LIVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS

ALICE HAS A SOMEWHAT SAD EXPRESSION

[Anonymous No.]

well played anon, You made us cry manly tears

[Anonymous No.]

What is this i dont even...

[davin !sl5zDH9Gd2 No.]

>>5114731
yes, She will out live them, unless you drag fannon in here. You know the whole "marisa becomes a youkai because MAGIC? deal

[Anonymous No.]

I laughed because Alice is already a loner

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114733
Oh, I thought it was something about Alice's right shoulder looking like someone grabbing a dick through bloomers or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114747
No, it's canon that she lives past the discovery of saboten.

[Anonymous No.]

Good for you.
Now go away.

[davin !sl5zDH9Gd2 No.]

My question is..
Do you think Alice will eat them when they die? Or at least when they are in their final days?

[Anonymous No.]

Hey OP it works with this one too, just move your hand in from the left side.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114747

Canon doesn't say anything either way, so whether she will or not is pure fanon speculation. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that.

Marisa will become a magician and live with Alice.

Yukari will get sleepy one day and ask Reimu to do her dirty work for a while. It'll stick.

[manonthe3up No.]

Why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114768
good ends suck

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114778
Doesn't mean they aren't canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114778

Welcome to Gensokyo. Nobody dies here except in backstory.

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114768
love the picture

cannon said nothing up to now about the future.. unless you consider CtC...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114789
Orange.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114796

PC-98 was retconned away. Wasn't lighthearted enough for ZUN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114794
SSG, idiot.

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114807
do enlighten me further my good anon, it appears i am not yet knowledgeable about that SSG you are talking about.

[Anonymous No.]

You can time travel with this picture too! Just leave your hands in your lap.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114801
>implying PC-98 series doesn't take place ~100 years before the windows series and Reimu and Marisa aren't reincarnations

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114830
How can you tell where (when?) you are?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114824
Seihou Shuusou Gyoku, which takes place in the mecha-level future and contains Reimu and Marisa.

[davin !HcjpzTaH1. No.]

>>5114831
I've heard this theory somewhere before. Was there a doujin about it?

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114845
oh, but that is nothing but cameos s'far as i know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114852

Not only that, but it's pre-Windows games anyways so it comes before the ZUN retcon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114796

Orange was just a Youkai in the mountains at night during Lotus Land Story. When the heroines happened across her she was easily beaten. Reimu attacked simply because Orange was a youkai, and Marisa attacked simply because Orange was in the way. Poor Orange...

Being a youkai I'm assuming she'll respawn sooner or later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114857

And again, this being Touhou, beating someone in danmaku does not quite equate to killing them.

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114870
you know.. thats something that puzzle me, what is the extent of physical injuries that need to be inflicted for a danmaku battle to be won ?

from what i can recall currently its more of "you expended all you cards you lost" but i guess there must be other measure to danmaku battles.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114850
None that I know of. It's just a theory I've had for a while

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114856
PC-98 games are referenced to by characters in the Windows games, so they must be canon.
>>5114870
Danmaku was deadly before spellcard rules. The fight with Shinki destroyed Makai twice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>511488
Since no Danmaku battle really results in major physical trauma (a beaten Youkai suffers clothing damage and very light wounds), I'm guessing that the amount of damage is proportional to the defender's stamina. You can hit them as much as you want and they won't get hurt, but eventually their concentration will break and the spell will be interrupted, and considered 'beaten.' That's probably the rule involving combat; either the spell runs its full course while having no effect on the target or the caster loses her concentration and the spell is disrupted.

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114915
good theory, and it does fit with IaMP ans SWR spellcards...

mighta have to comb the wiki over this, makes too much time i havent read anything in there... then again im on an old crappy computer, might not survive it.. damn my new rig and its hardware fuckups.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114915
so Mokou either has no stamina or don't bother defending herself?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114894

ZUN in-jokes are not necessarily canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114933
Then nothing is left.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114930

Or she has a death fetish.

Mokou's a unique case because she gets completely beaten and resurrects herself immediately after. She still has cards, and the immortal thing lets her keep casting until she's completely out. I'm guessing she can't handle defending herself or is just that weak.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114943
wait, i remembered something.

in Reimu scenario she said that if Mokou is immortal then she could go all-out on her.

So danmaku CAN be lethal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114943
Mokou doesn't die and then resurrect. She resurrects BECAUSE she doesn't die.
That's why Reimu could go all-out on her. She's technically not being lethal.

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5114957
hmm that might be true, never did do the Xstages (not yet able to 1cc but GODAMNIT im tryin) so i cant say for sure about the text, but that would be an explanatin, with moukou being immortal by regeneration.

tough it is said in wiki that moukou and kaguya limits are their pain thresholds, when they die, they Regen, but still feel the pain every time, they just die and Regen till they cant take the pain anymore. whereas they're defeated

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115003
read
>>5115002

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115002
so, if we assume that hourai elixir functions the same way as Kaguya's power, they are erased from history and can't change no matter what.

so Shiki really can't kill them

[Touhou 40k Addict !SBspTdOq9M No.]

>>5115007
twas posted as i was writing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114139
>pic related, all you have to do is click on the pic then place one hand on top of Reimu and the other on top of Marisa.
you want me to touch my monitor WITH MY HANDS?!!
don't you know that'd leave horrible finger marks and streaks across the whole thing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115021
She can destroy existance itself so hah.
>>5115003
You aren't allowed to discuss Touhou until you've beaten at least 5 extra stages.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115036
Shinki is stronger than Omega Strong-tan and Sonic Gokuverine combined.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114139
why would you do that

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115036
but doing that will be bringing change. And elixir is denying any change.

insert joke about Obama here

[Y10NRDY !kxh.1oTAkU No.]

I time travel every night. I lay down in my bed and wake up and it is 8-12 hours later.

Fucking miracles.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115036
Actually, she can't. Not Mokou's. Mokou possesses a body that cannot be destroyed.
There's a reason why she's called "Victim of the Ultimate Sin".
She'll never even get to see Shikieiki. Just like she said, "Ghosts without a soul cannot be born, and people who can't die can't see the netherworld". Komachi is practically nonexistent for her.

[davin !sl5zDH9Gd2 No.]

>>5115068
fucking sleep, how does it work?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115078
And she can see everywhere else due to no constraints of time.
waaaah.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115061
>>5115078
I thought my second line would at least tip you off that I wasn't serious...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115089
Well one thing that got me going was "Keine could change history so Mokou never drank the Hourai Elixir". But there are several things wrong with that.

[Anonymous No.]

>border of impossible and whatever the hell Yukari feels like
>hourai elixir is in some part magical so the ultimate magic can overcome it
>moonbitches have science so advanced that they can do anything

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115130
>implying Yukari didn't say that Mokou was invincible herself
>implying impossible things are possible
>implying the medicine has a loophole to work around with, despite it being the elixir of immortality

nice trollin' thar

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115154
>implying that my instant perfect invincible omnipotence moe isn't better than you'r's.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115207
>implying you're omnipotent

There are limits even to omnipotence, by the way.
It's like if God makes a boulder so large he can't lift it. Would he be able to lift it?
If so, he can never make a boulder big enough so that he can't lift it.
If not, then it's obvious what he can't do- lift it.
both ways, it proves my point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115233
>There are limits even to omnipotence, by the way.
No. By definition.

The boulder argument is subject to contradictory premises. It is fallacious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115237

definition- Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

all powerful=/=being able to do the impossible.
It means being able to do everything that can be done, in other words, all things possible

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115237
the boulder argument is actually makes perfect sense. It's the omnipotence part that should be clarified

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115241
>able to do the impossible
If someone can do it, then it isn't impossible.

Being omnipotent certainly means being able to do things that would otherwise be impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115251
No, it doesn't, and it is OLD. That topic has been closed for many years.

Any argument that uses contradictory premises is incapable of verifying a conclusion, because logic can only support a conclusion based on the truth of its premises.

[Anonymous No.]

Oh dear, people arguing over the semantics of immortality again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115253
so omnipotent beings CAN'T do the impossible.
Because if it does it, it isn't really impossible in the first place. Point still sharp.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115273
Consider this.
What we define as impossible is from our own perspective. What we consider impossible today could very well be possible in the future.
Who are we to judge what an omnipotent, all-powerful being is and what such a being is capable of when they are so far beyond us?

[Anonymous No.]

How did the discussion of immortality turn out to this? I'll just end it here.

For people who believe impossible things can't happen no matter what, Mokou's death is absolutely impossible, so she's immortal.

For people who believe in absolute magic hax, Mokou's immortality is the absolute magic.

The whole point of her is that she lived forever. It amazes me how people manage to argue something as trivial as this

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115273
The problem here is defining "impossible." Impossible actions cannot occur. However, again (I am now repeating myself you dumb motherfucker) an impossible action under some circumstances is possible under others, and "being omnipotent" is a significant circumstance.

Logically, an omnipotent entity cannot perform logically impossible actions. However, this makes the assumption that logic is valid. By definition, an omnipotent entity could declare logic to be invalid. Logic is incapable of combating this point.

Assuming that logic remains valid, actions which are merely "physically impossible" likewise become possible by changing physical states, or even laws. To an omnipotent entity, something like the speed-of-light barrier (which is impossible to bypass) is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.]

For what it's worth, I'll throw in my old argument as well.
Their immortality is absolute only insofar as the one who created the Elixir can testify. Eirin could conceivably come up with an Antidote in the future.
For example, she created the Elixir using Kaguya's Power over Eternity. Who knows, she could use Flandre's Power of Destruction to counter the Elixir.
Anything is possible with the right plot device.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115326
>The whole point of her is that she lived forever.
Ah, but Mokou does not live forever, because being alive forever would require her to have been alive at the dawn of time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115364
But Flandre can't kill Mokou because Mokou has no lines or points of death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115369
You do not know what infinity is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115376
I'm not saying Flandre can kill Mokou any more than Kaguya can give anyone Immortality using her power. But it's something for Eirin to work with.

It doesn't even have to be Eirin. Any sufficiently advanced scientist ought to be able to counter what's inherently a human (Lunarian) creation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115381
enlighten me, then

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115343
>impossible action under some circumstances is possible
Here's the problem. Impossible actions cannot happen AT ALL. Not under certain circumstances. They wouldn't be considered impossible if that were the case. Just difficult, but ultimately possible, since it CAN be done.

>By definition, an omnipotent entity could declare logic to be invalid.
Citation needed on this. This is like going back to square one.
>Assuming that logic remains valid, actions which are merely "physically impossible" likewise become possible by changing physical states, or even laws.
But that means impossible things are ultimately possible, which goes against the very definition. You're being biased, saying omnipotence is the only definition and disregarding others.

The way I see it, omnipotence limits itself. If you have one omnipotent being and another fight each other, which will win? It just doesn't work out. Yet another impossibility among omnipotents.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115411
>This is like going back to square one.
That's the idea. This subject is beyond us.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115364
You're speaking on the grounds that the Hourai Elixir's effects can be negated. It's made pretty clear by Eirin that it's impossible and she made it permanent, and she aknowledged that.

Seeing Eirin is implied being the omniscient, if there is a cure, she'd know it. But if she makes it so that it's impossible to cure, then there you go. It is, after all, the "elixir of eternal life". I don't think it would be named that if what you said would be the case.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115411
>boundary of impossible and possible

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115449
>free from the boundaries

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115449
are you sure immortal's body contains any boundaries?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115369

or from the moment she became immortal, to forever more. It's in her profile, I'm just quoting it

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115458
>boundary of freedom from boundries and...not freedom from boundries

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115458
>border of free from borders and not free from borders

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115468
>just putting in the word "boundary" in front of anything makes it being bound by boundaries
>boundry of freedom of boundaries
>it's free from that boundary

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115411
>Impossible actions cannot happen AT ALL.
Actions that are impossible under some circumstances may be possible under others.

TRY READING. I HEAR IT'S A GOOD HOBBY.

>Citation needed on this.
"All-powerful." There is no imposed limitation. That deductive reasoning is a valid method of determining reality is an unprovable assumption. You'll rarely run into even hypothetical scenarios in which logic is not assumed to be valid only because we can't really say anything about such a scenario, and it's usually useless to consider.

>If you have one omnipotent being and another fight each other, which will win?
Logically, you can't. Only one omnipotent entity can exist, because it must have power over all things to be omnipotent, including other entities. This produces a contradiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115479
>boundary of you lose this argument

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115445
>Seeing Eirin is implied being the omniscient, if there is a cure, she'd know it.
Well, firstly I don't believe she's omniscient, and that's never been stated. She's just said to be exceptionally wise and intelligent.
Secondly, even if she were omniscient, which I highly doubt, that doesn't mean she can predict future advances in technology and/or magic.
(We do know magic is an ongoing field of research as well, magician youkai devote their life to it)

And so,
>It's made pretty clear by Eirin that it's impossible and she made it permanent, and she aknowledged that.
becomes "The Elixir cannot be currently countered, to the best of Eirin's knowledge."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5114139
Time travel? Take out Reimu and Marisa, and not Alice?

Oh...

;_;

[Anonymous No.]

Problems, Yukari?

[Anonymous No.]

Impossible/Possible and immortality/mortality is a weird thing to argue and define.

Why do we always argue about it? It's like, whatever, man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115493
Also, I can understand why there's so much opposition to this idea. It's very down-to-earth and boring. It's much more... pleasant to imagine Kaguya and Mokou existing forever and ever, just as it is to imagine Yukari's ability being limitless, Flandre being able to kill anything instantly, and so on.

But that's how I see it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115509
Arguements are fun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115509
it's fun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115411
In the presence of infinity, that which appears to contradict itself is able to become truth. An infinite repetition of .99999...? Logic bids us to consider this an infinitely minute difference from 1, but it is in fact equal to 1; no more, no less. The arc between two points on a circle? When the radius reaches infinity, the arc is no more than a straight line. What we first perceive to be impossible turns out to be truth.
Omnipotence is nothing more but an infinite source of power or control. What we perceive to be contradictory could very well be, in fact, possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115509
>boundary of semantics and apathy

[Anonymous No.]

[blue text]Immortal's body denies any change made in past, present and future, and therefore cannot be destroyed at all[/blue text]

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115489
>Actions that are impossible under some circumstances may be possible under others.
An action is either possible or impossible. Stop playing with words. If it can be done, it's possible. If not, then it's impossible.

>"All-powerful."
...Is still "all powerful". The opposition is the equally "all-powerful". It's like saying infinity-infinity

>If you have one omnipotent being and another fight each other, which will win?
>Logically, you can't.
You just proved my point for me. An omnipotent being can't fight another omnipotent being. yet ANOTHER impossibility among omnipotent beings. I could go on forever with this, because you keep putting in all these faults and saying >it's omnipotence it defeats all kfajsl;fakskjla no exceptions (except this can't happen or that etc. etc.)

I proved my point with the boulder thing a while ago. I'm not going to part with it just because you tell me it's contradictory. It's a example scenario where omnipotence is put to the test. It either can't pick up the boulder, or can't make it heavy enough for it to not be able to pick up. Humans could make something heavy just fine. An omnipotent would surely be able to make something it can lift, or something it can't lift, but not both at the same time. Quite simply- impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115554
>border of you both have completely different definitions of omnipotence

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115517
>>5115519
Oh.

I don't like them, they make me feel saddened whether I win or lose. Especially Touhouverse arguments, they're so weird.

[Anonymous No.]

Can God create a burrito so hot that even he cannot eat it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115595
Yes.
He'll eat it anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

Yukari is overrated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115606
so he can't make a burrito hot enough

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115606
Indeed. Even though being hot has nothing to do with edibility, he can create an inedibly hot burrito and eat it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115610
Yes he can. He just did. Then he ate it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115608
>merging of boundary control, ultimate magic, VIVIT-tier stength, divine authority and being ORT.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115619
>he just ate it
but that means the burrito WASN'T so hot he couldn't eat it. Pick one. It is either too hot, or not hot enough

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115627
Incorrect.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115631
clarrify

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115627
Arn't paradoxes fun?
But really, you'll get a lot of those with stuff like this. Get used to them, I guess.

[Anonymous No.]

>When the radius reaches infinity, the arc is no more than a straight line

There cannot be an arc. If there is a radius, and the radius has a starting point, in order for the 'radius' to be infinite, the arc cannot exist- the radius stretches infinitely.
It's not really a circle. Just a straight line.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115648
directed at
>>5115522

[Anonymous No.]

the people who believe anything is possible have to also believe that truly impossible things can be made so they can't ever be done.

It goes against against their very rationality. Safe to say, this rationality is wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115676
See >>5115646

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115648
It can't be a straight line. By definition, a circle has a center with all points an equal distance away. If you go to the end of infinity, or at least approach it, you will find a point in any direction; up, down, left, right, etc. This itself goes against the definition of a line.

[Anonymous No.]

Oho.
Ohoho.
Ohohohoho.
Well played OP.
Still, sage.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115493
What if it doesn't take omniscience to achieve immortality? Suppose Eirin was smart enough to make an elixir that simply makes one impossible to die? Suppose the medicine depletes the essence of void, the very nonexistence that occurs when that person or entity dies? If that happens, it has no choice but to live, even if you kill it it will come back to life because it's the only option. If it makes that person or entity incapable of changing until its dead, then bam! elixir of immortality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115703

This is the crux of all these "paradoxes". They're paradoxes of words only; they rely solely on definition conflicts. The burrito question is begging the question by including a contradiction of the conclusion in the premise. The question of whether an omnipotent being can do something impossible is equally stupid accordingly. And equally the case of an unstoppable force hitting an immovable object.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115703
there is no end to infinity. There is no direction because that 'end' doesn't exist.
It's not just 'not a straight line'. It's not a line at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115714
when it comes to infinites, infinity cannot be surpassed. You can catch up to it, but you cannot surpass it.
Unmovable force vs unstoppable object? It's like infinity vs infinity. Neither one wins, and neither move (unmovable technically wins in this case).
It will seam like it's at zero, but add an extra force, it sill won't move despite being at 'zero'. That's because adding anything to infinity is still infinity, and that extra force is nullified, and both remain in their positions forever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115710
You know, I can pretty much counter every claim of
>What if the Elixir does _____ ?
with
>What if there was an Antidote that stops the Elixir from doing _____ ?

The specifics don't matter, as long as the Elixir was created by someone and not a fundamental law of the world, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that someone else can counter it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115727
/thread

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115733
What if the elixir makes one impossible to die under any means, including any form of manipulation?(even antidote)
What if there was an antidote for that?
Well, it's immune to the antidote. That's the only way for it to be fullproof.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115733
that's like saying you consume a medicine that makes you completely invincible.
Then drinking an antidote that rids of it.
If the antidote works, you weren't really invincible (antidote was the weakness). If antidote doesn't work, you're truly invincible.
Same case with immortality. I think the Hourai Elixir works like that

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115727
>you can catch up to infinity
What.

No, you can't. No finite progression will ever reach infinity.

>trying to perform arithmetic using infinity
You fail.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm tired of this. We try to rationalize the on rationable, and fail because it is so far beyond us. All we get in the end are the same old paradoxes and a general of confusion.
>>5115573 is right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115740
How can it be made immune against an antidote that doesn't exist yet?
For all we know, a thousand years from now Eirin might discover a way to reverse the effects of the Elixir.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115727
>Unmovable force vs unstoppable object? It's like infinity vs infinity. Neither one wins, and neither move (unmovable technically wins in this case).
No.

>Unmovable force vs unstoppable object
This is a paradox. The conflict CANNOT occur. There is no winner, even by technicality, because they never go against each other.

The answer to "infinity minus infinity" is not zero. It's undefined, just like "infinity divided by infinity." Infinity is not a defined number. In fact, it is not a number. It is an expression that indicates the manner in which a number does not exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115752
infinity cannot be surpassed, but it behaves like a number that keeps promoting itself. Like division by zero. How many zeros does it take to make 1? No matter how many you have, you'll always stay at zero. But keep counting up those zeros. This is why infinity is an indefinite number. It's treated like a whole-number like 1, but it's more of a self-promoting number. Give infinity 5, you still have infinity. Cut it in half, and each half is still infinity. It's not a definite number, so of course it cannot be 'caught up' to. There's no place to stop!

[Anonymous No.]

So hold up.

The manga is kanon? Or like what happens in the games?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115749
Sure, but you're assuming that the person who called it "The Elixir of Immortality" knew of such an antidote when she made it.

It's like this, imagine if tomorrow I were to create something that, when consumed, causes you to resurrect, no matter how many different ways you die. I would call it an Elixir of Immortality as well.

But then it turns out a year from now that if the subject were to be exposed to something, let's call it... Kryptonite, he'd permanently die. I'm still not wrong in naming the Elixir what I did, since I didn't even know such a thing existed!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115714
There are no definition conflicts in my statement. Personally I also think these arguments are stupid, but I like playing Devil's Advocate, so yeah.

>>5115715
Sure, we cannot begin to fathom the extent of infinity. This is why we must think about what happens as we approach it. Take for example my horribly out-of-scale example picture because I couldn't find the one I was looking for. As the the circle gets larger and approaches an infinite radius, the arc between points A (top) and B (bottom) have much less of a pronounced arc. If this were to continue until infinity, it would eventually reach the final, straight line at the far left.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115766
>but it behaves like a number that keeps promoting itself
What the fuck?

No. Infinity does not perform any kind of operation. Infinity is not "one more than the highest number you can think of."

You cannot add to infinity as if it were a number. You cannot divide it as if it were a number. You can divide an infinite SET, but not infinity itself. You cannot perform any kind of arithmetic operation on infinity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115757
by making any form of manipulation unable to occur until the recipient of the Hourai Elixir is dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115780
>it would eventually reach the final, straight line at the far left
Except not, because you cannot, by definition, "continue until infinity."

You can "approach infinity." That is the proper term. As the diameter of the circle approaches infinity, its edge approaches a line.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115727

>it's like infinity vs. infinity. Neither one wins
Goddamn you're retarded

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115785
But how does the manipulation-blocking itself work? The antidote could stop that instead.
Now you could add another level of protection, but then I could create an antidote against that.

The process could repeat ad infinitum, well beyond the capabilities of normal human lifetimes, but since this is infinity we're talking about, the scientist herself has infinite time to create an infinite-level antidote that stops the manipulation-blocker-of-the-manipulation-blocker-of-the-manipulation-blocker-of-the-manipulation-blo
cker...-of-the-Elixir.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115780

I can see what you are getting at, but it is impossible for radius to be infinity if it is within two points. One of the 'walls' (the point in the arc where the end of the line hits) must not exist in order for that line of the radius to go on forever. This 'end' cannot happen. You can never have a circle with infinite radius. The center of the circle where the radius starts is one point. If you put in another point (the one in the arc), you put a limit to its length, which is NOT infinity. Put short, if it's infinite radius, it cannot be a circle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115727
DERP

>It's like infinity vs infinity. Neither one wins and neither move (unmovable technically wins in this case).

You fail.
Neither one would win, yes, but the the unstoppable object wouldn't be stopped, it would pass through the unmoveable object.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115800
>infinite time
Wouldn't that be eternity? That means it will literally take forever to make a cure, which means it will NEVER happen.
But two answer your question anyway, the Hourai Elixir works in two steps. Eliminate death, eliminate manipulation.
Manipulating them back is still a form of manipulation, and therefore already nullified. The 'antidote' is effectively useless.

Again, it's like making someone invincible. Then giving them an antidote. Well, they're invincible now, right? They are immune to the antidote.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115790
So other than the semantics of my statement, you have nothing to say for the other side?

>>5115816
Just because we cannot logically think of an end point for a radius of infinite length does not mean it cannot exist, just as any other problem dealing with infinity. It just doesn't follow the rules we're used to.

By the way, I'm just trying to head this to a "infinity doesn't follow logical means, argument is pointless" end. Mind if we head there now? I have to leave soon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115850
>That means it will literally take forever to make a cure, which means it will NEVER happen.
No, she HAS infinite time, not she NEEDS infinite time. Having infinite time means that, for any arbitrarily high amount of time that you DO need, you have it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115856
>So other than the semantics of my statement, you have nothing to say for the other side?
Semantics? What you said was as wrong as claiming that 1=2.

>Just because we cannot logically think of an end point for a radius of infinite length does not mean it cannot exist
No. It does not exist. A point that is infinitely distant from any other point DOES NOT EXIST. It is not mathematically possible for it to exist.

>infinity doesn't follow logical means
Infinity is an important concept in mathematics and certainly does follow the logic inherent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115850
>Wouldn't that be eternity? That means it will literally take forever to make a cure, which means it will NEVER happen.
No, it'll just take an amount of time proportional to how much time you spent making manipulation-blockers. And since you didn't spend an infinite time on that, I wouldn't need an infinite time to break it.

>Manipulating them back is still a form of manipulation, and therefore already nullified. The 'antidote' is effectively useless.
What you're saying is effectively that the Elixir works by saying "It blocks all manipulations.", and then an all-powerful Genie stops any attempts to violate that rule. I'm saying that it's far more prosaic. Being something that was created, it follows some rules. It does something to keep the Immortals resurrecting again and again, and that something can be attacked with the right approach.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115858

But it's not the elixir of immortality if there's a way to manipulate it back. The recipient's ability to be manipulated must be nullified. If she could do that, it doesn't matter what antidote she cooks up.

It seams that she make the Hourai Elixir change their very entity... "If a human drinks it, they will be in pain for all eternity. They will never be allowed to die, yet they will never be able to attain enlightenment, and further still they can't continue to live as a human. This elixir exists as a trial for humans, administered by the Lunarians."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115867
>What you're saying is effectively that the Elixir works by saying "It blocks all manipulations."

No, it doesn't 'block'. It makes the recipient... uneligible (if that's the right word) to be manipulated. Get it? Genie won't work, it's on the same idea.
>It does something to keep the Immortals resurrecting again and again
No, again, it makes the recipient uneligible to death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115871
>But it's not the elixir of immortality if there's a way to manipulate it back.
No, it just means that, RIGHT NOW, Eirin believes that the Elixir cannot be stopped.
She may very well find a way in the future, or someone else might.
This is the crux of my argument, and you're refusing to address it.

>It seams that she make the Hourai Elixir change their very entity...
Yeah, and the proposed Antidote will change it back. It just didn't seem likely to Eirin and the other Lunarians that such a thing would ever exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115881
>No, it doesn't 'block'. It makes the recipient... uneligible (if that's the right word) to be manipulated. Get it?
>No, again, it makes the recipient uneligible to death.
HOW? There must be SOMETHING it did to "make them uneligible to death". And I'm saying the Antidote will "make them eligible to death" again.

> Genie won't work, it's on the same idea.
I said you're the one who's bringing up a Genie.
Your idea is the same as a Genie who stops everything by looking at the definition of the word "manipulation", instead of actually doing something that stops manipulations (which can be manipulated on).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115871
If you are "killed", but don't die, and if you can repeat this procedure as often as you wish and still don't die, you are immortal.
OR in some cases:
Immortals are a group of fictional characters seen in the movies and series of the Highlander franchise. Since they are immune to disease and stop aging after becoming Immortal, they can live forever and they only die when they are beheaded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115884

You're the kind of person who believes anything that can be done can be undone or reversed. There are things permanent.

but back to this,
>No, it just means that, RIGHT NOW, Eirin believes that the Elixir cannot be stopped.
canonically, Mokou already lived forever.

>Yeah, and the proposed Antidote will change it back.
And if she already eliminated the means to change it back within the recipient of the Hourai Elixir? You're not getting it. It's like making the recipient invincible, then giving them an antidote to invincibility? How? They're invincible! They cannot be further manipulated. Not 'blocked'. Not subject to it at all. Like ripping out void out of their entity and then trying to kill them. They can't die- they have no choice but to live. Suppose she makes it so any and all antidotes/manipulations/effect can only happen ONLY if that recipient is dead? Well, if they can't die, there you go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115911
Good Night.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115894
>they only die when they are beheaded.
If they die at all, beheaded or manipulated and then killed or otherwise, if they die, they aren't really immortal.

hence the definition.
-not liable or subject to death

if they are liable or subject to death ANY WAY, they are still mortal. Mokou here, is immortal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115911
>canonically, Mokou already lived forever
when did forever occur

>And if she already eliminated the means to change it back within the recipient of the Hourai Elixir? You're not getting it. It's like making the recipient invincible, then giving them an antidote to invincibility? How? They're invincible! They cannot be further manipulated. Not 'blocked'. Not subject to it at all. Like ripping out void out of their entity and then trying to kill them. They can't die- they have no choice but to live. Suppose she makes it so any and all antidotes/manipulations/effect can only happen ONLY if that recipient is dead? Well, if they can't die, there you go.

But why are the premises supposedly infallible?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115952
But does it still hold if death isn't permanent?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115961
the recipient of the Hourai Elixir is 'shifted'. After they drink it, they can be manipulated only in death. But they cannot die, therefore they cannot be manipulated, therefore cannot die, therefore etc. etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5115973
depends how you look at it. If they hold infinite life, yes. If death isn't permanent? Both yes and no. It's a neverending life, but also has death, so it doesn't exactly fit the definition.
If we're talking about Mokou, she's blatantly unable to die at all. She can be blown up, but an instant when she's dead isn't a part of her existence.

[Anonymous of Austria No.]

The hourai elixir couldn't possibly exist.
If a cup falls from the table, it breaks into many smaller parts, but have you ever witnessed a broken cup piecing itself together and jumping back onto the table?
Canon Mokou's existence in itself is in conflict with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The entropy can only increase, so Mokou can't regenerate when she "breaks"

It can't exist, so arguing about the existence of an antidote is useless.
It can exist in fiction, so an antidote can exist as well, in fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116026
Actually, it can't. Mokou already lived forever, canonically. Given an eternity, any and every possible event will absolutely happen. If Mokou could die, it would have happened in it. Seeing she lived forever and didn't, the only explanation is- it's impossible.

There are also things that happened that are impossible to undo. For example... your birth? If you were to go back in time to undo your birth, you wouldn't exist. But if that happens, you wouldn't exist to do it, so by default, you exist even after trying.

Stop treating fiction like it's reality. It can, and does, defy it. Here, Mokou can never die by any means, canonically. Enjoy your fiction- of fiction of Mokou, fanonfag.

[Anonymous of Austria No.]

>>5116065
Mokou was born during the time "the tale of the bamboo cutter" plays in. Therefore, lived roughly a thousand years.
The hourai elixir works based on Kaguya's eternity manipulation. Mokou's body state is saved, and every changed is reversed (this is impossible in reality). ZUN uses this however he wants, so Mokou still has a working metabolism (=change), but death (=change) is immediately reversed. The same with Eientei. It is mentioned that vases can't be broken, because of Kaguya's eternity spell.
If anyone is able to reverse the effects of the hourai elixir, it would be Kaguya, or a medicine created with Kaguya's help (just like the hourai elixir itself)

BTW: Touhou is fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116026
>touhou
>science
>go back to fucking nitori

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116169
Put your hand over the left side of the picture.

[Anonymous No.]

Immortalhax is best ability in Touhou.

[Anonymous No.]

I just casually skimmed this thread.

Holy shit you people must be bored.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116148
But Kaguya KNOWS Mokou can never die.
When it comes to this stuff, people like to play with or misinterpret immortality, changing its definition from "can't die at all by any means" to "it can die, but so-and-so must be done first" or "it can die, but is really difficult". The idea is, if it can ever die at all one way or another, it's ultimately mortal. Mokou and Kaguya have been deemed quite frankly true immortals by ZUN.
Of course, if she drank a medicine that made her immortal, then that means she cannot be changed back, or that medicine isn't really the elixir of immortality. It's implied that one who drinks the medicine can never be allowed to die again, so I'm pretty sure something simple like a cure won't work, or any other kind of manipulation, which is exactly why Mokou and Kaguya are immortal. If this were math, killing them would be like trying to divide by zero. And finding a cure (they're already immune to) that works would be like finding the square root of a negative number. It simply can't happen.

[Anonymous of Austria No.]

>finding the square root of a negative number.
Sqrt[-1] = i

[Anonymous No.]

>>5118234
not a real number

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116065
Infinity does not necessarily have to include everything. There are an infinite number of whole numbers, but there is never a negative number on that list.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5118524
Didn't get what relation does this have with >>5116065 But i'll pretend I understood.. the only thing that can defeat infinity is 0..

[Anonymous No.]

Heh, that's pretty funny. Wait why does this have so many replies?
>power levels
>fanon
>immortality

[Anonymous No.]

>>5116065
>any and every possible event will absolutely happen
I was disproving this point.

[Anonymous No.]

>Mokou already lived forever

[Anonymous No.]

>>5118756
more like this

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120661
Do you not understand how verb tenses work?
usingenglish.com

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120700
who said anything about verb tenses? I'm just quoting the official stuff. It fits, see?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120723
Just another sagefag. Ignore him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120723
"has lived forever since" refers to the past, not the future.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120727
>sagefag
Here we go

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120729
Which makes him right.

[Anonymous No.]

ITT:
immortals can die
wow, sure is faulty logic in here

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120739
Considering time is infinite, nobody can live forever, and thus "immortals" would die at the end of time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120729
"forever since" refers to the future after a certain event.
"ever since he got that computer, he never got off it."
In this context, 'forever' can be used the same way. learn2read

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120747
but if time is infinite, there is no end to it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120747
>time is infinite
>at the end of time
I hope there was a typo here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120763
Everything ends, even things that are infinite.

This is simply beyond what we can grasp.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120782
>i cannot explain my faulty logic so I'm saying it's beyond your comprehension

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120782
No, infinite things do not have end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120809
How do you know? You have no empirical evidence.

You just assume, you belief. Like a religion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120809
what about this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120842
and you don't?
Infinity is the idea of something without end. He and I can safely say that infinity doesn't have an end.
Like time. Time stretches infinitely forward and infinitely backward. It's very possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120865
Exactly, it's just what you choose to believe. So infinite things are not by definition without end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120884
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinite
4.
unbounded or unlimited; boundless; endless: God's infinite mercy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120884
>>5120904

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120904
+2 internets.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120782
What you should be saying, instead, is that nothing is truely infinite.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5120904
Dictionary just describes what people in general associate with the word, it still cannot define what infinity is.