/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Kuudere > Tsundere.

[Suigin !YUsuiginy. No.]

i agree but mokou isn't a kuudere

[Anonymous No.]

Very much agreed.

[Anonymous No.]

Goddere > Yandere > Kuudere > * > Tsundere

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914417

She fits the archetype perfectly.

She doesn't say much most of the time, keeps a cold outer shell, and treats most people in a detached, unemotional way.

But as we all know from every MokouxKeine doujin ever, she's actually dere as fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm okay with this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914429
Fanon shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914429
Do you guys really use non-canon sources to create touhou personalities?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914433
>Goddere

Like Haruhi?

[Anonymous !wM5G0xiB/Q No.]

>>4914401
But tsugumi is tsundere..

[Anonymous of Manila !!1gI4uJox3s7 No.]

Do you really have to make taiga an example?

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914446
>>4914449

Canon agrees with fanon on that topic, though it doesn't say anything about Mokou's private life. So, canon-wise, we don't know whether the "dere" part applies or not.

But seriously, most Touhous don't *have* canon personalities. That's why we have fanon.

But yes, any fanon that makes Mokou into a tsundere is shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914401

I find it curious that both the Kuuderes in the example are immortal.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914429
She's embroiled in an obsessive, centuries-long vendetta fueled by hatred and confusion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914482

Actually, going by the dialogue IN, she just wants Kaguya to stop bugging her so much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914482
She's still confused after centuries? Pretty slow, eh?

[Anonymous No.]

Tsundere is the best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914486
Sure, and going by her profile and CiLR, she

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914492

CiLR never existed.

Also, it's possible to be Kuudere towards some people and, er, just mad towards someone else.

[Anonymous No.]

Kaguya's presence is somewhat important to her, because she spent about 2 minutes anguishing about being lonely and immortal, and how Kaguya kept her from being bored.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914496
Really? CiLR isn't bad enough to warrant NEVER EXISTED.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914492
Actually going by CiLR makes her seem way different. 900 years of despair until finding Kaguya again, at which point she settles down because she's not the only immortal around and they can fight to pass the time.

[Anonymous No.]

Uhh, Tsugumi is a classic tsundere OP.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914522

Quite a lot of parallels with Tsugumi indeed...

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914499
>>4914522
>2 minutes of loneliness
>900 years of loneliness

Which one is it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914492
Sure, and going by IotM&IotE she just shows up every now and then to fight about food or fishing or some shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914496
How can a character's portrayal in a novel by ZUN be disregarded in favor of their portrayal in fanworks?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914543

Inconsistent canon is the best canon. It means we can justifiably ignore it whenever we want, because it does the same.

[Anonymous No.]

Rin is not so generic tsundere like Taiga. She's actually much more developed as a character. She was a true bro, advisor, lover and buttmad-tsun but she's not just TSUN TSUN - DERE DERE shit like Taiga.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914548
Rin is just the exposition character, she has nothing much other than that going for her.
She is a mediocre character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914547
Easily. ZUN's writing is shit and fans generally do a much better job of making characters actually, you know, LIKABLE.

[Anonymous No.]

Aselia was one of my favorite cooderes.

[Anonymous No.]

Can somebody repost those yandere videos?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914560

At this point ZUN's works are basically treated like doujins just like any other... and I think he treats them like that too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914560
I like a lot of ZUN's ideas. A lot better than a lot of the translated doujinshi I've read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914557
Pretty much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914560

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914584
Agreed. If you look at his writing there isn't really that much inconsistency between different works, he often exaggerates certain character traits to change tone between stories but the characters are fundamentally the same.

[Anonymous of Croatia !na1byG1GU. No.]

>>4914401
Agreed! Very very much.

Yet Moku is by no way a kuudere.

[Anonymous No.]

i agree

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914606
Inconsistency is sort of the point.

[Anonymous No.]

Tsugumi is tsundere.
You must be thinking about some other Asakawa Yuu character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914606
Alice has nearly no consistency in my opinion.

It isn't really that I think his writing is top-notch material or anything, but I like his character personalities a lot more than most of the exaggerated stuff in doujinshi, although there's a few doujinshi that I really enjoy.

Marisa is a magician that worked her ass off to get where she is, but she hates showing people the amount of effort she puts into her studies. She focuses on making her magic as pretty as much as she makes it powerful, but also prevents becoming a "silent magician-type", and manages to be both playful and serious, especially in Grimoire of Marisa.

Rinnosuke has hilariously crazy ideas about how things in our world works. He's more stable than most of the cast, but he's also completely out there at the same time.

Reimu is Reimu.

[Anonymous No.]

Mokou is BROdere.

BROdere is the best.

[Anonymous No.]

A challenger appears!

What dere would you use to describe a woman who is more or less a ladette who eventually starts to have emotional attachment than just fucking for fun? Ladere?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914784
Slut

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914828
But slut is not a form of dere!

Also all Touhoes are sluts, so we can't really use that label. Its too redundant for this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914784
DAT ASS

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914870
But they arn't...

[Anonymous No.]

As far as I know about Mokou, fanon warps her canonic personality into something she is not.


She is not an obsessive lovestruck tomboy who only wants to fight Kaguya. She just wants Kaguya to stop bugging her so much, according to her dialogue in IN. She generally tries to avoid Kaguya more than anything, and you can see that when she doesn't call Kaguya in her interview with Aya.

She is not cute/sexy. That's fanon shit, and that's obvious as fuck.

As far as we have it, she does not have a 'dere' side at all. Not all girls made in japan have to have that trait.

She generally doesn't socialize with humans nor youkai, but mostly rescues people form the Forest of Lost. But even with those people, she rarely even says a word to.

Of course, there are exceptions to this, such as close friends like Keine. There isn't any hint as to her relationship with Keine after that, and just leaving it as being just friends with her.

Basically, her personality is as ZUN said it is. "A restrained sense of power with a bit of creepiness that presents this overwhelming cool." So she's a bit mysterious too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958
I CAN'T FAP TO THIS!

Fanon > canon

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914401
who's that person standing next to mokou on the Kuudere side?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958
Mokou liked fighting with Kaguya because it isn't boring, according to CiLR.

Also,
"I stopped worrying about whether Kaguya would return to the moon. Even if she wanted to go back, she had no obligations towards me, and it seemed like she didn't want to go back anymore, anyway.

Besides, I remembered that I had other undying friends here in Gensokyo.

　- The Youkai Mountain."

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915017
>Kaguya always, ALWAYS tries to kill me!
>And she's the one who gave me this horrid body!!
>Kaguya KNOWS I can never die. But she still keeps trying to kill me.
>Always sending assassins, always trying to kill me. Didn't Kaguya make the Hourai Elixir? When will she realize this is nonsense?

I think it's safe to say, she generally doesn't like the fights with Kaguya, at least presently. Before, she did fight her alot. Now it's getting irritating to her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958
I wouldn't take the dialogue from IN at face value, especially in the context of talking to people she refers to as "assassins". Between IN and the other canon works neither she nor Kaguya seems to be the prime instigator. The nature of their relationship is based more in their shared immortality than in real resentment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915048
I think she doesn't like fighting assassins sent by Kaguya instead of fighting Kaguya herself.

[Anonymous No.]

Sounds like Kaguya is tsundere for Mokou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958
Mokou is a girl who lost it all as a child because her father is a horny idiot and decided her whole reason left in life was revenge. She became immortal, couldn't find Kaguya, then sort of forgot for a while.

She had 300 years of running, 300 years of murdering, 300 years of nihilism, and then finally acceptance.

Then she met Kaguya again, and they fight because they are the only ones who understand what it is like to be immortal (and it keeps them entertained.) Kaguya means a lot to Mokou, as seen by her running to Kaguya's home in CiLR.

If anything I'd say Mokou is a distant and apathetic person because she is so used to it, but if you peeled back the layers you'd find a woman who was forced to mature though lots of pain and is very loyal. There is a lot of dere potential in there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915048
>I think it's safe to say, she generally doesn't like the fights with Kaguya, at least presently. Before, she did fight her alot. Now it's getting irritating to her.
There's not a whole of of things "safe to say" in regards to most of their personalities. It's pretty fucking well known that many characters' personalities change from in-game to other sources. You place more wight on in-game dialogue than CiLR, fine.

There's nothing wrong with thinking that your idea of Mokou is correct, but saying that it's the only correct way to interpret it is stupid.

And before you say you didn't say anything about being right or wrong, it's implied by the certainty of your post that you think your idea is the only correct one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915068
In the IN dialoge, she's obsessed with good danmaku shooters.
Mokou is one of those, so it she probably is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915087
Honest Man's Death was silly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915048
I do not think that that is safe to say at all. The only canon scenes in which they do meet and/or fight, as far as I know, are in IootM&IotE, and I can't remember any case in which Mokou didn't start it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958
>>4915083

So in other words, she's Kuudere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915085

Compared to all of the doujinshi that make Mokou Tsundere, it is.
However, I do take into consideration reasonable and well-thought out opinions who actually did some research as potential facts, such as >>4915083

It's the people who don't know shit about Mokou and draw opinions from her out of nothing that gets me irritated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914958

>Of course, there are exceptions to this, such as close friends like Keine. There isn't any hint as to her relationship with Keine after that, and just leaving it as being just friends with her.

There's nothing that even implicates that.

There's just Keine, being a human defender, defending who she considers a human.

Mokou didn't even ASK about Keine after the player characters thrashed her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915126
Which makes her the best dere.

Now put some alcohol into the mix and wait for AWESOME.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915133
I may disagree with much of what you have said, but if we agree on anything, it is this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915134
CiLR? IotM&IotE?

[Anonymous No.]

Will someone PLEASE tell me who that girl next to Mokou is? in >>4914401

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915134
That's a very interesting theory about Keine's relationship with Mokou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915214
It's Bob Marley.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915134
>>4915167

A lot of this has been basically SureWhyNot'd by ZUN. Many of the things that have gotten into his "canon" were originally made up by fans and he pretty much just accepted it as gospel and assumed it in his later works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915214
Tsugumi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915226
original Mokou was best. She had no friends (considering she didn't didn't even really know Keine), so I guess that made her that much cooler.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915226
That may be the case, but the fact that ZUN bases some works on fan interpretation doesn't legitimize the perceptions or wishes of the entire fandom as canon. Once something gets placed in canon, for whatever reason, further interpretation should be based on it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915262
Mokou is still the original Mokou. In her first portrayal very little time was spent addressing her issues as a character. Just taking a glance at anyone makes them seem mysterious and cool, the fact that some were frustrated when we got a real look at her doesn't make her a new version of the same character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4914453
Classic Tsundere
Retitled Kuudere after the Modern Tsundere archetype(Tohsaka) took rise

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915307
Rei is "classic tsundere"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915269
>further interpretations should be based on it

It shouldn't, but must. Must is the word you should have used.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915346
I concede, but I maintain my choice of words: interpretation SHOULD be performed on canon, but it is not always, much to my frustration.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915382
>>4915346
>>4915269

waitwaitwait backup....

Since when did ZUN give a shit about his fans?

[Anonymous No.]

Kuudere is nothing like Classic Tsundere, you people are all fucking morons

[Anonymous No.]

Are you a human in Genoskyo having trouble winning over your favorite danmaku shooting monstrosity? Then come on down to Akyu's Love Consultation Palace! Spritely girls giving you the cold shoulder? Turn that fairy into a dere in 9 easy steps! End boss says your not even worth the bullets? You know the phrase; learn to graze!

Mokou:
You're in love with Mokou?! You sure are a masochist aren't you? But don't worry, you aren't the only one. She's pretty popular, especially amongst lonely sociopaths. Wait come back don't leave I was just teasing!

Mokou is a stubborn girl who has lived too long, is trapped in a love/hate relationship with another immortal, and doesn't really like to talk to most people. But if you can get her interest, the battle is half won!

Now Mokou is pretty powerful, and she doesn't like to hold back when playing danmaku, so impressing her that way won't really work. But remember that with the exception of the immortality and fire control, she is just a girl! Chances are you are physically much stronger than her, so try using that to your advantage. If you have some money to blow, become a regular customer at her yakitori stand (well if you can find it.) If you have some friends, set up a trap to anonymously injure her then be a knight in shining armor to rescue the girl!

This last one is pretty crucial. Mokou has deep seeded father issues and so usually dismisses most men as cruel or horny bastards. That's why you've got to become a friend first. When you find her hurt, she'll say its nothing and try to continue on home despite the problem. Refuse to let her do this, and carry her home! She'll protest of course, but there isn't a girl who doesn't love being swept off her feet! Tell her you refuse to see people in pain if you need an excuse. Its going to be awkward, but you must persevere!

[Anonymous No.]

When you get to her house, make her comfortable and focus on picking it up before she can tell you to leave. She may tell you to mind your own business, but be the humanitarian! Clean her house a bit and if possible cook something for her. This will buy you some time and make you appear as a good provider! Might want to bring some food though, since Mokou sometimes doesn't bother eating since it won't kill her, and so she might not have much at the house. If you talk to her, don't try to pry into her personal life. Act like you don't care about it! Comment on how impressive something in her house is! Indirect compliments can work wonders! If she refuses to carry a conversation, talk about yourself for a little bit (but not too much!)

When you leave, tell her you'll come back tomorrow to check up on her. This will give you an excuse to see her again. Try not to leave too late though, because the Bamboo Forest is dangerous at night. Don't forget to mark your path when you are carrying her, or you won't have a way back! Don't ask if you can spend the night because it is dangerous outside, or you'll just look like a coward!
When you visit her the next day, she’ll probably be healed but don’t let that stop you! Bring some food and keep interfering! If you are on good terms with Keine that’s always a big plus casually mention it, but don’t be obvious that you are dropping a hint. If you are a handy man, try to make some repairs to her house. Eventually she’ll either chase you off or begrudgingly give in, so make sure you stay just as stubborn as she is until one or the other happens!

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915422

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915398
Since when was that relevant to the content of any of the posts you linked to?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915422
>>4915427
...and then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915571
You die by fire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915579
before or after I sex her up?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915597
Hard to say. Assuming your name starts with a K, does it end with a -aguya or a -eine?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915608
ends with -ourin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915627
Trade smokes for sex and you'll be okay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915636
>>implying I would have to trade or pay for sex when I could just use my masculine charms or rape.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915645
He's weak compared to most youkai, although he might have a legendary sword or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915645
Everyone in Gensokyo is gay, and raping an immortal might be a shitty idea.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915671
Hmm, good point. I might have to do something drastic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4915307
>Retitled Kuudere after the Modern Tsundere archetype(Tohsaka) took rise
Lol no. There were many kuuderes way before the shit Modern tsunderes became popular. Can you honestly think that Aselia for example is similar to Tsugumi? Or see >>4914527 for a kuudere example from 1996, from the same game which is also got a Classic Tsundere as a heroine (Mio). They are totally different, and even suggesting they are the same archetype is just outright wrong.