/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

After 2 years of Japanese studying by myself, I thought I was getting nowhere. I was always fucking forgetting my kanji, and it would take me about 10 minutes to read a doujin page (mostly caus I was looking up kanji I forgot).

Today decided to watch an episode of my shitty anime without subs on. Surprisingly, I'm better at listening than reading. Not sure how that works since I only study vocab by writing and reading, rather than saying them out loud to myself.

In any case, I felt pretty proud of myself. I've yet to reach the point I'd hope I was going to be by this point (still can't read for shit) but at least I'm pretty content with myself.

This is a cool story, bro. It's meant to give confidence to anyone who sucks balls at Japanese right now. Even if you're slow at learning the shit, like me, any progress at all is good. I beat myself up too much because of my shitty memory, but at least I got to a decent point.

You can let this thread die.

[Anonymous No.]

Good for you, bro.

[Anonymous No.]

Have you been studying the proper stroke order?
Also, I wouldn't try studying kanji in abstract and then attempt to recall them from memory, that's colossally inefficient and very unnatural. If you're using the Heisig method for instance, you'd better stop.
It's much better to study kanji only in the context of vocabulary and chew on them as you go, definitely practice their pronunciation because that's key.
I've studied Japanese for about as long as you and I don't really "study" kanji except to write them down a few times and read them aloud to myself when I encounter a new one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731620
>I don't really "study" kanji except to write them down a few times and read them aloud to myself when I encounter a new one.
Same here. Writing them down with proper stroke order really helps them stick in my mind.

[Anonymous No.]

Progress typically goes too slow for you to notice it much on a day to day basis. Only way to really measure it well with languages is seeing how well you handle specific milestones you couldn't handle before.

Everyone should try to test themselves like that once in a while, for the sake of motivation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731620
>>4731636
Wasn't expecting people to give me tips on this actually. Thanks, I'll really take that to heart. I really should focus less on the kanji themselves and more on how they're used.

I use kanji dicks (or rather, kanji damage now) but usually forget all the fucking jukugo, Probably better if I paid more attention to them, would help me remember as well.

When I write them down I can never get them to look right, since my hand writing sucks. i try to imitate the stroke order and end up failing, so sometimes that doesn't help since what I write down looks nothing like what it should be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731620
If you want to study with mnemonics, http://kanji.gotdns.com/ really is the best choice these days, particularly after the update. He provides what really are the most useful and relevant words using each kanji, and explains how the word is used if it's unclear. Really helps you realize how the kanji is actually used, rather than just getting some obscure one word definition that may or may not make sense when you encounter it in a compound.

Also, the usefulness ratings are very nice, I've found, as it allows you to skip a lot of kanji you either shouldn't bother with at all, or at very least shouldn't bother with before you've finished the ones you will actually find yourself using. Like 胆. Do you really feel like memorizing that so well that you will never forget it, taking far more time to do so than if you looked it up in the dictionary every time you actually encountered it? I know I don't. I skip anything that has 2/5 or less in usefulness rating.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731654
Do you use anki?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731654

Yeah, I was afraid because you studied alone you might skip writing the stroke order, and I should think that would make things a lot harder.
Same goes for kana as well. It might be difficult to go back and re-learn the stroke order for characters you're used to writing, but once you do I should think it would make the whole process a lot easier. And it'll automatically improve your handwriting.

Also, pretty basic but remember that written forms are often different than printed forms, so find a source that has hand-written forms. You can also download a hand-writing font to paste characters into to use as reference.

This site has .gif animations for stroke order:
http://kakijun.main.jp/

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731654

It's true, stroke order helps tremendously. You want it so your hand does the remembering for you. Never understood why people needed those silly stories.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731680

Also worth remembering not just stroke order but the stroke endings: stop, release, hook, etc.
Internalizing all this complex framework actually helps make kanji easier to remember I think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731686
Stroke order doesn't make anything stick for me. Maybe if I tried writing them out every single time I encountered them, but when I'm reading something, I'm not particularly motivated to take out pen and paper and write out every single kanji I encounter that I'm not too familiar with.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731680

Thanks for the link. I usually use JDIC but occasionally they won't have the SOD for an entry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731695

Well that's recognition, not recall. and is a whole lot easier than producing the kanji on your own.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't get how people have trouble just memorizing kanji. They're basically pictures; just look at them enough and you'll recognize them. You don't need to be able to draw a picture to recognize it.

Unless you actually want to be able to write, but I can't imagine many of us need to.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't understand how you can study kanji without stroke order.
The great thing about looking up kanji using the IME-pad or the DS/dictionary/iphone touchscreen is the OCR usually requires you to enter the right stroke-order, the whole process becomes second-nature and you practice the kanji as soon as you look it up using the pad. It's also twenty times faster than trying to look up a kanji via radical/stroke count, that's a fucking nightmare.

[Anonymous No.]

Before, my head would hurt after reading any VN for 15 minutes or so, now it doesn't. That's about the only progress I've made in a year. I wonder if I'm retarded?...

[Yutanpo !1DeKKAi00Y No.]

>>4731542
i know what you mean though bro, stuff like kanji and speaking are always hard, but I was amazed at how much your listening/knowledge of grammar both formal and colloquial improves from just watching anime. Also, as much as you tend to forget the kanji you read in manga, you do tend to remember certain words and kanjis (usually those 2 letter ones) so definitely not in vain.
feels good man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731704
I never got any of those dictionaries to work too well for me. Even with a kanji I already know, it was always hit and miss whether it recognized it through my crappy handwriting.

Besides, isn't it kinda preferable to actually learn them so you don't have to look them up? Or if you know it, but see it in a new compound, look it up through the reading?

[Anonymous No.]

I find that the easy Kanji are fine for me to remember, as well as common ones, but the complex million strokes ones always fuck me up.

Then I have to search for an hour to find it via order/radical ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

<- This is the reason why I don't want to learn japanese language.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731879
Casual.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731879
It's not as bad as it seems.

[Anonymous No.]

Japanese is extremely difficult in written form because
1) it uses chinese characters in 2 different ways
2) it uses 2 different syllably systems
3) despite using chinese characters, the language structure itself isn't properly fitting for pictograms unlike chinese

Japan would be much better off if they just used katakana.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731907
>Japan would be much better off if they just used katakana.
Sounds like the words of someone who doesn't know the language. It most certainly would not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731914
correct, but I can some ~500 characters of chinese. the mix of 4 different writing styles is absolutely horrible mess by any standards.
chinese language fits pictograms because one never bows the words. however, this is not true in japanese which is why they need to put end particles like -no in hiragana after kanji characters. so why have kanji at all if you need writing aids anyway to make yourself comprehensible?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731541
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[Anonymous No.]

>>4731942
Learn the language and you'll see why kanji are so important for the Japanese language. Even if the language didn't need kanji when it was still young, the language is now built around kanji. And it works very well.

[Anonymous No.]

start translating Touhou porn

[Anonymous No.]

not to interject

but why don't all japs know english? they're taught it in high school, plus it's one of the easiest languages to learn so they must pick it up pretty first.

I mean, what the fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731961
can't be bothered, I already know 6 languages so that would be stressing myself too much. :3

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731942
Imagine if there were only one spelling for all homophones. That's what japanese without kanji would be like.

http://www.all-about-spelling.com/list-of-homophones.html

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731967
not to interject

but why don't all americans know spanish? they're taught it in high school, plus it's one of the easiest languages to learn so they must pick it up pretty first.

I mean, what the fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731978
fuck spanish

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731967
>they're taught it in high school
No, they're not. They're told to read sentences some guy writes on the blackboard out loud, that's pretty much the whole English education they get.
>plus it's one of the easiest languages to learn
No, it's not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731879
Wow, is that all of them? I'm seriously surprised how many I recognize.
I think I may just hold onto this to make myself feel better during the times I think I suck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731978
Because the people who natively use spanish in America aren't the nicest of folks. The places that speak spanish in America are pretty trashy. It's as simple as that. Nobody wants to associate themselves with human trash.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731974
Not to mention that Japanese has about a thousand times as many homophones as English.

[Anonymous No.]

not to interject

but why don't all 4channers know japanese? they're taught it in anime, plus it's one of the easiest languages to learn so they must pick it up pretty first.

I mean, what the fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731991
4/10, I almost started to rage.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731974
Except with millions of more homophones than in English.

買い 【かい】 (n) buying, buyer, purchase, (P)
回 【かい】 (n) counter for occurrences, (P)
甲斐 【かい】 (n) effect, result, worth, use, avail, (P)
下位 【かい】 (n) low rank, subordinate, lower order (e.g. byte), (P)
貝 【かい】 (n) shell, shellfish, (P)
階 【かい】 (n,n-suf) -floor (counter), stories, storeys, (P)
会 【かい】 (n,n-suf,vs) meeting, assembly, party, association, club, (P)
かい (prt) marks yes-no question (masc)
傀 【かい】 (n) large
怪 【かい】 (n) mystery, wonder
橈 【かい】 (n) oar, scull, paddle
櫂 【かい】 (n) oar, scull, paddle
下意 【かい】 (n) the feelings of the people
偕 【かい】 (n) together
介 【かい】 (n,vs) shell, shellfish, being in between, mediation, concerning oneself with
改 【かい】 (n-suf) revision

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731996
"All of them" would be like 80 000. I'm pretty sure that's the Heisig list, which is about 2000. Knowing most of them is still pretty nice, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731990
Seriously? English is way easy to learn.
And i'm kinda agree with anon, they're a bunch of words close to english translated in katana, so why most of japanese are so bad in english?
I just can't understand it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732028
>English is way easy to learn.

>i'm kinda agree
>they're a bunch
>why most of japanese are so bad in english?

Fast shipping. Would rage again. A++

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732040
You missed a spot!
>in katana

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731974
accentation would solve the problem. see: translitering hanzi to pinyin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731978
viva espana !

>>4732040
>why most of japanese are so bad in english?
japan spotted

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732040
>Engrish lesson
>/jp/
Wh..?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732055
We'll have a working kanji-less system in only a few years! And it will only benefit weeaboos who want an easy way out! Let's push this, guys!

[Anonymous No.]

sorry to interject, but what would be the chance of all east-asian countries turning their writing systems into western alphabets? from practical viewpoint, it would be a huge boon for everyone.

[Anonymous No.]

You can get rid of Kanji once you purge all Chinese vocabulary from the language.

You'd have an easier time making a new language from scratch

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732055
Does that effectively deal with words that have over a dozen homophones? I'm unfamiliar with Chinese.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732055
And just where would you accent how?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732082

Vietnamese did it, but I'm not at all familiar with the language or how deeply it was affected by its previous Chinese writing system.

Korean is already phonetic if I understand correctly, but don't the Hangul have some kind of logo-graphic purpose, if for nothing else than it makes things easier to read?

[Anonymous No.]

Why doesn't America just take over the Japanese government through military force (it's not like they have any way to resist) and force them to adopt English as their official language? Would be far easier for them then it would be for me to learn those kanji.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732105
I'll commit suicide if that EVER happen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732082

Even if it WERE possible to do this in Japanese (and people were trying at the turn of the last century), the funny thing is I doubt it would make the language substantially easier to learn.

[Anonymous No.]

A small reminder to all those who assert that it's impossible for Japanese to completely abandon kanji: do you guys realize that back in the Famicom days games were entirely written in kana, including those exceptionally heavy on text like RPGs? If it worked fine for them, I don't see why it wouldn't work just as well on a larger scale.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732105

I thought we already did this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732116

That was either a technological or target demographic (little kids) handicap, not a feature. Pokemon is actually kind of a pain to read if you ask me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732116
オレ　の　こころ　の　なか、　その　おうごんじだい　は　まだ　のこっ
ています。　

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732116
Were NES RPGs really that text heavy? Even if they were it was probably mostly dialogue, which is a lot simpler than other forms of writing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732139
>Even if they were it was probably mostly dialogue, which is a lot simpler than other forms of writing.
This is one of those things I've started to notice more when learning Japanese. Within the same VN with consistent difficulty of reading, it's often much more troublesome to understand the storytelling.

[Anonymous No.]

You will never be as good a translator as this man ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732094
sure. chinese tones are accented in 4 ways, so assuming basic katakana word takes 3 letters you would get 81 different possibilities with 4 tones alone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732175
I would very much prefer kanji to accents. Memorizing 2000 pictographs makes you feel like a genius, but trying to make the correct sound when you speak is extremely humiliating.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732165

If that's Ted Woolsey, then he was a shit translator.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732175
Memorizing a new combination of tones for every homophone doesn't sound that much easier than memorizing a new kanji. At least kanji are sometimes related to the meaning of the word. Also kanji would definitely make for faster reading.

[Anonymous No.]

I've been thinking about this for awhile and OP convinced me to try to start learning..

How does one start learning japanese? Where do I start? Any good programs to help with learning?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732231

Rosetta stone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732212
Speaking of Ted Woolsey, anyone who feels like finding fault with his localization efforts should take a look at this interview first. This poor man had the work cut out for him like no one else.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/localization/localization2.htm

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732234
been here long enough to know it's shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732217
>At least kanji are sometimes related to the meaning of the word.
This. If I come across a word I'm unfamiliar with, I can often tell its meaning by justing at the kanji. If the written language were to switch to only kana, Japanese would become even more impenetrable to novices than English, which at least has a workable (albeit vast) etymology.

[Anonymous No.]

>Translate a doujin
>Artist's handwriting is sloppy
>Some of the Kanji use less commonly use radicals
>The raw is poorly scanned, blurring out parts of Kanji that have a lot of strokes
>Take 30 minutes to decipher one page

Fuck this shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732238
technical limitations oh no the poor guy

[Anonymous No.]

>>4731542
>Even if you're slow at learning the shit, like me, any progress at all is good.

Now I feel like learning some. Also
>>4732231

[Anonymous No.]

>Heisig

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732252
I pretty much never try to read something if it's handwritten or the resolution is too low. Readability should be of highest importance when choosing reading material at least until you don't have to look up kanji all the time.

[Anonymous No.]

Interest should be the most important criteria if you're a lazy fuck, regardless of skill level.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732265
>>4732231
Well, start by going to http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar and read through everything there and take notes. It will also tell you about the kana, which you should be able to learn within a few hours. The grammar part isn't the most exciting thing you can do, but it will be extremely helpful, and going through that guide while taking notes is probably the fastest way to get it down and stop feeling like a complete retard whenever you try reading something in Japanese.

Secondly, go to http://kanji.gotdns.com/ and download Anki. Make it your goal to get through all the kanji there, and memorize them with the help of Anki. Time-consuming, but you can do it at your own pace, and when you have mastered the important ones, the language will suddenly be easy. You won't need much more vocabulary after this, other than the stuff you'll just absorb automatically since you have kanji to associate them with, so you mainly just need to get used to the language at this point. So..

Thirdly, read. I think the ideal thing is to find an untranslated VN and use AGTH, which allows you to copy and paste anything you don't understand into a dictionary (I use JWPce as my dictionary, not really sure if it's the best one, but it works). Another option if you're not completely comfortable with the kanji are manga targeted at younger demographics, as they will usually have furigana. If you are completely comfortable with the kanji, you can just read whatever you want, you don't need suggestions from me anymore at that point.

Those steps don't have to be followed strictly, but prioritizing them in that order will probably be most effective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732304 kana, which you should be able to learn within a few hours
And you learned 2000 kanji in 3 months.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732304
Many thanks. Also, you should save that for future pasta

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732313
>comparing learning kana to learning kanji

But seriously, I'm not >>4732304, but getting the kana down is really pretty simple. Especially if you mostly intend on just reading them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732313
Well, we're talking about being able to recognize them, so that you can start reading right away, even if it's a little slow at first. That part should be possible to cover pretty fast.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732328
It's not so much about comparing the two, than it is about the process of memorization.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732313
>And you learned 2000 kanji in 3 months.
That's what Heisig is for. If you invest an hour or two each day 3 months is very realistic.

[Anonymous No.]

god damn you make it sound so easy

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732352
Remember when Heisig trolling used to be good?

Yeah, me neither.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732304
I can't find this "anki" on the site

[Anonymous No.]

so, i don't really care about learning to actually write the kanji by hand. at the very least it is a distant secondary priority to learning how to read them.

am i committing a sin?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732377
Not on that site. Google it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732386
I wouldn't say so. Even though the readings are easily retained, it's not uncommon for even native Japanese to forget how to write kanji after living out of the country for a few years.
I remember one of my Japanese teachers for a short while couldn't remember how to write the word 「挨拶」.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732386
Even if you tried to learn how to write them, you would probably just forget them if you never wrote regularly in Japanese after learning. Therefore, as with pretty much all skills, they're useless to learn unless you're going to use them. That's why the word "useless" exists, isn't it? Use-less, without use, has no use. Whether it is used determines whether it is useless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4732423
it seems like even living in japan, learning to write kanji by hand wouldn't have much of a use in itself either, unless you were attending a college(where you'd probably need to handwrite tests and such). almost anything long enough to really warrant the use of kanji(outside of schools) is written on computers in modern times.

[Anonymous No.]

I think of it this way

if you've memorized nearly 500 Pokemon and their types, movesets etc.
if you've ever played a trading card game and was GOOD at it, and memorized the hundreds if not thousands of card names, their stats and effects, etc.
if you know every single Touhou girl, their spellcards, how to beat those spellcards and every personality canon and fanon has given them

then you can definitely learn Japanese and kanji