2012: the year Gensokyo became grim

[Anonymous No.]

I've recently been rereading some printworks to refresh my memory for a future Touhou TTRPG campaign I'm planing (there's one RPG coming in a week that has ZUN somehow involved), and I've noticed a something that I've mentioned in a lore thread once: Touhou before 2012 felt a lot more balanced in terms of how grim it was, while Touhou 2012 onwards jumps straight into dystopia, retconing a lot of less grim aspects.
There were 3 printworks that were published in that year. First, Symposium of Post-mysticism. it had higher than usuall amount of grim content, but one thing I want to note is Byakuren's theory about human imagination. From what she said, youkai attained certain traits, like their looks or behavior, from the way common people imagined them. Then, when Gensokyo became sealed, youkai got separated from human gestalt, and thus achieved a certain degree of freedom in how to look and act. Now, Byakuren doesn't exactly know all the ways this could effect youkai, so this is speculation, but from the example she gave (tengu and yamabushi are compared to each other -> tengu gain their good qualities -> youkai are forgotten, Gensokyo is sealed -> tengu lose those qualities and are free to do whatever they want), I think humans tended to humanize youkai, making them about as good and evil as they themselves are, with exaggeration where appropriate, but now that they aren't held back by human imagination as much, their behavior became even worse and more inhuman than even their original myths, with some exceptions (tsurube-otoshi were always violent retards).
Next, Wild and Horned Hermit. It has a fair amount of both light and dark stuff, but one new introduction in chapter 14 makes some fundamental changes in how Gensokyo is perceived - it makes it a police state, where humans are under constant surveillance by youkai. You could say that BAiJR article about the secret history society was the begining of this, but I disagree.
Last but not least, Forbidden Scrollery. This is the last nail in the coffin. Over the course of it basically almost everything bright that was mentioned about Gensokyo in PMiSS, BAiJR and some other sources got retconed. Humans are descendants of exorcists that on average are stronger spiritually than an average youkai, protected by local exterminators and incident resolvers, not to mention local friendly werebeasts like Keine? Nope, they're all pathetic country bumpkins, including Keine, who would all die with a whimper if not for Reimu (and sometimes youkai), and werebeasts are nowhere to be seen. Youkai go shopping to the village in broad daylight, and make for great clients for exclusive night shops and bars? Nope, almost all youkai are hidden and are only there for mischief or politics, night buisinesses would not be a thing until Geidontei a decade later. Marisa being mentioned as soon-to-be youkai magician like it's no big deal, while being presented as a hero? Nope, see Fortune Teller. PMiSS being a public manual on safety and peaceful life? Actually yes, but at this point a lot of the original PMiSS is retconed, and we don't know what's written in the new one. There may be some other things I forgot to mention, but these are the main ones, I think.
The weird part is that all of this got introduced rather rapidly (except some of the stuff in FS, but I assume ZUN had some sort of plan of what to write in mind after the first two, maybe a bit earlier).
Why such change in direction? Why retcon so many things? Was this planned from the beggining? Did ZUN write himself into a corner and felt that the changes were necesary? Was he just in a particularly edgy mood? Wifes influence (married that same year)? What do you think?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
>Zun making a fan work of his own series.
Touhou is literally a doujinshi series, anything outside the games shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
I want to joke that he got married and had sex for the first time and that broke him mentally. But I think he had a GF beforehand.

If I had to guess, I think he was starting to get tired of writing Touhou. I remember reading somewhere that he original meant for IN To be the last game and while the next two games were arguably largely in the spirit of the early games, elements of darkness and drama have slowly started to creep in. MoF is already a far cry from something like EoSD, which by itself was already pretty different tonally from IN. It certainly seems to have worked considering that he clearly started caring way more about making Gensokyo a more consistent setting around that time and while retcons do still happen the Gensokyo described and shown in the 2012 media has remained largely consistent.

>You could say that BAiJR article about the secret history society was the begining of this, but
It's a bit more complex since the secret history society was NOT portrayed positively.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621154
How do you call these fanworks when it's established to take place in the same universe? Kasen does make appearance in games and there are some stuff from printworks that get mentioned in games too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621263
Knowing him saying that he would be fine making shmups until he can't, it kind of feels like after IN he has a " just a few more" syndrome, like he'll just make a few more games, just a few more books and manga, and then he'll deffinitely quit, and then during the process he gets excited and does it again.
>It's a bit more complex since the secret history society was NOT portrayed positively.
Considering that most of them didn't go to the history courses after they got exposed, they probably were just some rowdy youth looking for a fight with youkai, with the whole "lost history" thing being just an excuse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621610
Could be. I do wonder though what exactly caused ZUN to make such a radical course change though. Then again, I do think it was a bit more gradual than it can feel just looking at one date. The games before 2012 were already getting gradually more dark

[Anonymous No.]

i dont think so at all.
in fact, incidents have gotten a lot less serious and more about youkai politics with the printworks being increasingly whimsical. i mean, back then humans were considered in lore threads to be literal cattle for eating kept in shacks with only few like keine protecting it against the hungry hordeswhile we now know the human village is flourishing, mostly peaceful and the size of a pre-meiji city and all the youkai checking each other on it.
also, the presentation of the games has gotten more and more vibrant ever since MoF

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621263
When the history society was written about, they were basically just a bunch of regressives working to undermine Gensokyo, where humans had started to live more and more harmoniously.
With later works continuously invalidating the setting as established in Bohemian and Memento (though Memento and the existence of the Chronicles already raise enough questions by themselves), the society naturally looks more sympathetic now, while Keine's reaction now makes her look like a youkai stooge, aiding them by propagandizing to the human cattle.
Obviously, none of this was intentional, but it's the inevitable result of the setting being such a mess.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44622885
>i mean, back then humans were considered in lore threads to be literal cattle for eating kept in shacks
I feel like you got it backwards. In current Touhou people are being treated more like cattle, not less.
>we now know the human village is flourishing, mostly peaceful and the size of a pre-meiji city
Village was always in a good spot. I don't know why you think we didn't know anything about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
IN was supposed to be the ending to the series, but strong sales and ZUN probably getting interested in Japanese folklore pushed it forward.
PoFW and especially MoF was another soft reboot to the series which is where it really started to be fleshed out, and ZUN's commentary on society was seeping in.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44622899
I know. It's funny since Keine has generally been portrayed as one of the most clean "Allies of humanity".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44622999
>Village was always in a good spot
I would say it used to be way better though. PMISS human village almost sounds pleasant compared to Synopsium and FS.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621263
>I want to joke that he got married and had sex for the first time and that broke him mentally.
Can't believe ZUN is that anon that complaint about how sex didn't solve all of his problems and that everyone lied to him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
>Byakuren's speculation
Honestly I think she's just flat-out wrong, there. Belief is still a very important factor in Gensokyo, and most youkai taking a human appearance is to be expected in the land where monsterfucking is more popular in myth than basically anywhere else in the world.
>Youkai going shopping in broad daylight.
They still do from what we can tell, they just don't usually announce themselves as youkai.
>Marisa becoming a magician youkai
Fortune Teller is a weird thing because we still don't know exactly what he was executed for, and it really seems like the whole "Jinyou" deal is a pretense to permakill anybody who poses a threat to Gensokyo's status quo.

Also, the PCB Prologue which you're referencing specifically ends with the addition that it's written by the 13th Hakurei Shrine Maiden, so it's another situation where it's an in-universe statement, and pretty much all of those force you to ask why the people say it, because they're rarely entirely if at all true.

>there's one RPG coming in a week that has ZUN somehow involved
Gensou Narratograph. I've been watching it myself. ZUN isn't involved in its development as far as the announcement goes, he just was part of a playtest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
For me it falls off after touhou 12, although that's because I have a softspot for that one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
I don't get why people are so quick to say things are "retconned" in Touhou. Conflicting things can certainly be "true" at the same time especially when there are unreliable narrators and varying perspectives going in between Touhou works. Besides that, if you go back and read an earlier work and it says X about something but then it says Y in a later work, can't it just mean that things have developed differently over time in some cases? I can't think of anything that has been straight up completely changed with no possible explanation outside it being a canon retcon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44629763
>can't it just mean that things have developed differently over time in some cases?
Sometimes, sure. But are you seriously telling me that in the space of what, by all account, in universe was less than a year every magician and youkai exterminator was killed. Human and Yokai relationships collapsed. A police state was instituted. And humans turning into yokai went from something that happened every now and then to a crime worthy of death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44628286
>Belief is still a very important factor in Gensokyo
Her theory wasn't about belief, it was about how imagination influences (or, in this case, doesn't influence) youkai in different ways. The evidence for their behavior is right there, you could count times youkai are genuinely friendly to someone on fingers. As for their looks, who knows.
>most youkai taking a human appearance is to be expected in the land where monsterfucking is more popular in myth than basically anywhere else in the world
This may be true in myth, but not in Touhou. Most youkai don't seem to regard humans as people, let alone friends or lovers.
>ZUN isn't involved in its development as far as the announcement goes, he just was part of a playtest.
That's a shame. My only hope now is that it's less informed by fanon than Tale of Phantasmal Land, because I don't know how am I supposed run canon Touhou. It feels so brittle, my players will break it in 3 sessions or die trying, probably both. No wonder most incidents originate either outside Gensokyo or by newcommers.
>>44629763
>>44631057
There's a lot of stuff that is hard retconed from PMiSS, like Akyuu casually mentioning that the Village is protected by youkai and the whole reason for Barrier's existance - you know, the kind of info that gets you killed in newer canon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633598
>Akyuu casually mentioning that the Village is protected by youkai
It still is you retard, whaletits literally shows that the youkai is worried about heavy rain that threaten the village
>the whole reason for Barrier's existance
Wut? It's still the same

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633646
>retard
no u
Anon, this is writen in a public document. It implies that villagers know about all this.
I repeat, VILLAGERS KNOW ABOUT WHY THE GREAT BARRIER EXISTS, AND ARE NOT KILLED FOR IT

[Anonymous No.]

>>44631057
>by all account, in universe was less than a year every magician and youkai exterminator was killed.
The PCB prologue never states that it is up to date. It is written by the 13th Hakurei Shrine Maiden, and there is nothing stating Reimu to be the 13th as far as I can recall. While it definitely changes how the setting is presented, that detail itself is not strictly contradicted because it's entirely possible that the 13th was generations ago.>>44633598
>My only hope now is that it's less informed by fanon than Tale of Phantasmal Land, because I don't know how am I supposed run canon Touhou.
Honestly given that it's made by a bigger company and ZUN playtested it, it's presumably canon-compliant. Even if the 2 premade Scenarios aren't sufficient, they've stated it'll come with guides to develop new Scenarios, so either way, you'll at least have a system designed specifically for Touhou.
>It feels so brittle, my players will break it in 3 sessions or die trying, probably both.
I'd say you're lucky if it takes that long. I know the players I'll be testing it out with will probably try that even sooner.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633685
They don't read it because most can't due to educational or financial reasons, and those that can don't because it's boring shit.
The villagers have the attention span of a worm too. Like those people would be able to wrap their heads around this subject matter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633685
>VILLAGERS KNOW ABOUT WHY THE GREAT BARRIER EXISTS
I mean duh, they know the existence of "Outside World" and "outsider" so even though their education is probably dogshit, they still able to put two by two together
The only thing they didn't know is that the supposed top dogs and representative of the human race, Hieda and Hakurei, are actually collaborating with their oppressor and enemy

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633982
The problem with the villagers knowing about the barrier, is if they know that there are two layers.
The first one that was created by human mages that isolated Gensokyo should be known, even through popular legends passed down through generations.
The secound layer created by the youkai/God sages and the Dragon is the big mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633897
>>44633982
Why do you assume they have bed education there? Education in late Edo Japan, while worse than the rest of the world, wasn't bad.
>>44634152
They knew back then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634152
>The first one that was created by human mages
Wut? Both barrier were created by Yukari
>>44634258
Because it's an isolated medieval village that used to be located in the middle of nowhere when the barrier didn't exist, bold to assume their education was up to standard before their isolation in the first place

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634362
>Wut? Both barrier were created by Yukari
Read the PCB Prologue, Secondary-Kun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634362
Next you'll say they're unwashed and have no sewers, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634408
Secondeez nutz
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Basic_Knowledge_of_Fantastic_Words_2015

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634494
Literal secondary material and once again ignoring primary material, that's specifically the interior barrier. Come back to this thread when you know the canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634509
Cope lmao
Unless there's actually THREE barrier on Gensokyo, there's only two that we currently know
The first one that created by Yukari to invite many youkai to Gensokyo as some sort of haven for them
The second one is the Great Hakurei that completely cut off Gensokyo from the rest of the Earth and DEFINITELY become a haven for youkai and shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634543
>There are two barriers that we currently know
>Names the Great Hakurei Barrier twice
Alright, credit where credit is due, you got me with your first two baits, but this one is just too obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634560
Copeth the moreth

[Anonymous No.]

why are the only people I ever see discussing lore on /jp/ dumb crossboarders?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633858
It's pretty unlikely there have been that many Hakurei Shrine Maidens unless the title existed before Gensokyo or the job has a insane turn over rate. It's possible it was written in the past, but I doubt it. Even PMISS mentioned yokai exterminators existed in the human village.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634436
I mean, they most likely don't have a sewer going by how they appear.

The problem in general with the human village is that we don't actually know how they ended up here. The original explanation was that Gensokyo was a major Youkai hotspot before the barrier came down, and the human villagers were yokai exterminators. Which is part of the reason why they were originally all supposed to be super badass. Since they aren't anymore, and that bit of lore hasn't been mentioned in two decades, it's hard to say who exactly the human villagers originally are and accordingly how backwards they were in relation to the rest of Japan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44633982
>That image
Honestly always feel bad for the human villagers. You can tell they that on some level they understand their purpose, but they are basically just trying to drink it away.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634784
Gensokyo existed before the GHB, so yeah, I think it's reasonable for there to be a decent number of Hakurei Mikos, though I'd have to check when the IRL shrine it's based off of was built to math out how many there realistically should have been.
>>44634819
I always assume that it's an Order of Ecclesia type of situation where the villagers now are mostly mundane humans, but descended from the super-badass ones. Same way there are a lot of descendants of Genghis Khan, but you don't exactly see anyone unifying Mongolia to go on the war path again either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634837
Can't really blame them. If you magically gave all the villagers the full picture and demonstrated just how bad the odds are stacked against them, I bet most of them would do little to fight against it.
>>44634607
I don't see nearly as much crossboard lingo in these kinds of threads.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621154
>doujinshi
>anything outside the game
wrong, doujinshi is synonymous with r18 manga
so if anything lewdsokyo is the canonsokyo

[Anonymous No.]

>>44635938
I unironically think most of them would just kill themselves.

>>44634917
That's somehow even more depressing if true. Literally 1984 tier "They were tortured into becoming a empty shell as punishment" shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621154
>>44621291
Does anything that I mentioned get referenced in games? I have to admit I haven't played anything past 15 and no floatans. If not, then if I only took canon info from games like I used to do then I wouldn't even know Gensokyo has become such a shithole.
Everyone who told me about Touhou kept saying that it's all kinds of ambiguous and open to interpretation, and I did interpretate it as a somewhat light settting, with barely any canon info contradicting this. But now I feel like I got scammed by them, because you can't have any positive reinterpretation without downright ignoring most of the shit I mentioned. Seriously, I may have to make a "cutesokyo canon" thread after this one, because I can't imagine how they can make a positive setting out of post 2012 canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639821
>Does anything that I mentioned get referenced in games?
No. That's the thing. Literally only the secondary material ever references the darker parts of the setting. People who play the games usually don't see it or pay it much mind. In fact, fi you play the fighting games specifically, you'd get a really lighter take on Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639723
More like Brave New World if I'm being honest. I imagine it was a slow and gradual thing. Bread and Circuses. Conflicts between humans and youkai die out for a bit, and humanity loses its edge. Give that a couple generations and then nobody's left alive who knows their own potential because all they've ever known is youkai and youkai sympathizer propaganda.
>>44639821
DDC is the first mainline game to be released after, and it already takes a bit of a darker turn. The fact that Seija managed to get a following at all, much less one of the size she did, implies that a lot of youkai don't exactly have it too well either, and that's before 14.5 had genuinely the most significant incident in the series for the risk of a stable entryway into Gensokyo being created, and then 15 is also pretty substantially darker than previous entries. Wily Beast and Weakest Creature, much like DDC, has the protagonists essentially subjugating another rebellion of human souls in the Animal Realm that were being tormented. HSiFS and UM are relatively unremarkable, but the latter led to UDoALG which could've easily gotten out of hand if not for Zanmu going out of her way to ensure the Hell Mafias didn't succeed in their plot to take over the surface.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44634494
>>44634543
>>44634583
>deez nutz
>cope
>copeth the moreth
Get out

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639876
>>44639945
So out of games, only 14 and 17 come any close to being dystopian?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44640531
no, debunk me instead you fag

[Anonymous No.]

>>44643302
I won't even lose my breath on you, crossie

[Anonymous No.]

>>44643597
Then deal with it

[Anonymous No.]

>>44638967
>doujinshi is synonymous with r18 manga
Please look of the definition of doujinshi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644265
*look up

[Anonymous No.]

>>44643108
14 if you read between the lines, and 17 outright. That said, the plots of the games are fairly "villain of the week," so they're not exactly something you go to looking for a nuanced or deep story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639945
I don't even think it was bread and circuses as much as just picking off anybody that made too much noise, getting others (Mostly merchants) depending on trading with youkai, and getting the human village as a whole more and more dependent on the Hakurei Shrine Maiden.

Either way though, it's cruel considering how they started off.

>>44639945
Honestly, WBAWC is a lot less dark than it seems simply because, and I will admit this is easy to forget, that most of the human souls being tormented probably had it coming. I mean, it is hell after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>Living with constant fear, opressed and with the feeling that they would be killer/eaten by youkai
There is a point to live as a human in Gensokyo?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644451
>There is a point to live as a human in Gensokyo?
You cope. Find happiness in any way you can. And get a drink every time the obstructive thoughts get too strong.

[Anonymous No.]

You got a link to that upcoming RPG?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644513
https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/322304001298/
https://touhou-project.news/news/9654/

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644384
The human souls in WBaWC aren't in hell though, they're in the Animal Realm, which is different. It's just a step in the buddhist reincarnation cycle, and the ones that would actually deserve something like that would be in the Preta and Naraka realms anyway.
>>44644451
>There is a point to live as a human in Gensokyo?
Become an irreplaceable friend to several powerful and influential individuals, and then make a difference or die trying.

In a phrase: Just like real life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644451
She can save you

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639945
Not only do they give it enough time for humans to forget about their own potential so that the various faiths can offer diluted forms of potential-seeking for their own benefits, any villager that DOES end up realizing they're missing out in some shape or form like the Fortune Teller gets torn up the moment they act upon it as an independent individual.
I can't even blame him for thinking going Youkai was the correct answer, it was the quickest method since all the other commonly known paths required you to basically dedicate your life to that path as early as childhood in order to get results in your elder years.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
>Marisa being mentioned as soon-to-be youkai magician like it's no big deal, while being presented as a hero? Nope, see Fortune Teller.
Why are people still making this retarded point, it's like comparing someone becoming a killer by joining military and going to war vs some dude that murder raped a little girl on the streets, thinking that they would be received in the same way is idiotic

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644712
If you count being married to a youkai under the pretense of "reparations" as salvation, then yeah, she can and will in record time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644712
She needs to be cut in half just like the fortune teller.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44645891
You misunderstand, the point is not "magician good, jinyou bad", the point is that Akyuu literally tells the villagers that turning into youkai is a-ok and isn't anything bad.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44648951
She didnt achieve her state in Gensokyo, let alone human village, so it's fair game

[Anonymous No.]

Well, this thread was a mistake.
Shouldn't have made a textwall.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
Am I the only one who thinks the multiple perspectives for the same characters is retarded and lazy writting?
Feels like a cop out ZUN made to rektcon certain characters to his liking like Nitori, and I dont even wanna start with whatever he is doing with Reimu which is the most "succesful" of this kind of writting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44662753
No. I actually write for money and I have a healthy disrespect for authors who try it. Ninety nine out of a hundred times means the author can't keep his worldbuilding or characterisation consistent, and he uses that as a crutch to try to explain why people seem so different all the time. And hey, ZUN is talented, he's managed to be okay at all of coding, art (now), writing and great at music. But he's not a /great/ writer and it's very obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44662753
No. ZUN just want to make whatever he wants and he's obviously not a writer. ZUN is first and foremost a programmer and digital musician, and even he's amateur at best at the former and that's why he stick making the same-looking janky shmups, but that's all he want to make, along with music and throwing concept and ideas to keep Gensokyo's worldbuilding afloat. The only things you can praise ZUN for are his music, some character designs and neat ideas.
Expecting a literature-level or manga-level writing from doujin series centered on shmup games is like expecting good writing from Street Fighter. People shouldn't take it too seriously.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44663669
>People shouldn't take it too seriously.
he says in a grimsokyo thread

[Anonymous No.]

>>44663677
>he says in a grimsokyo thread
Sure wasn't intended to be one.
I made this thread to hear possible theories for why canon suddenly became this grim, not to hear about fanon exaggerations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44662753
Like other anons have said he's not meant to be a good writer, but in this case using different perspective is a clever way to avoid himself writing into a corner when he know he's incapable of keeping a consistent character and there's something he want to write.
It's no different than how Gensokyo has both eastern and western elements and set in current time so ZUN doesn't have to limit himself to be consistent with only certain theme and because he knew his capabilities (or lack thereof).
I mean, would you rather ZUN keep these crutches to not stress himself out and at least give variety to the story or force himself to be consistent when he can't and end up creating something bland to play safe?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44639945
People here recently talk about how bad villagers had it but being a weak Youkai (so like 98% of them) is probably the worst fate you can get

[Anonymous No.]

The biggest problem with ZUN as a writer is that he can't write likeable characters to save his life. Everybody is some variety of asshole or jerk. It makes it hard to really care anything the story tries to get even remotely serious. To his credit though, I do think his dialogue is entertaining to read and he's great at creating interesting concepts.

>>44662753
I think it's mostly fine. I can't think of a character that really comes across as worse as a result. I mean, I would have hated Reimu regardless and Nitori in MOF had no character anyway. Making her a con artist serial killer is a way more fun direction to go with her.

>>44663669
>is like expecting good writing from Street Fighter.
Street Fighter at least manages to have a cast that is mostly likeable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644680
>The human souls in WBaWC aren't in hell though, they're in the Animal Realm, which is different.
Doesn't the animal realm in Buddhism just mean being reincarnated as a animal?

[Anonymous No.]

how do the villagers view Reimu anyway?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44663669
>ZUN just want to make whatever he wants
This is the key insight. He didn't, like, sign a contract promising he'd never change details on the fly. If he forgets something or decides years later he doesn't want to write things that way anymore, then it changes. There's nothing inherently wrong with that inconsistency as long as touhou is entertaining.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665219
Like a cross between a exterminator and a weird hermit that tries to invite people to his out of place hovel.

They don't seem to be aware of her true purpose or even that the Hakurei Clan are 100% working with the Youkai sages.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665156
>Everybody is some variety of asshole or jerk.
I don't think this is a big issue. Not everyone can only like characters if they are nice or goody two-shoes.

>Street Fighter at least manages to have a cast that is mostly likeable.
Most of them are cocky and demeaning whenever they start or win a fight, but that's not what people talk about when they speak of SF characterization.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665260
with Aya wasting no chance to shit on her on the daily news, it's amazing if they even trust her that much

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665299
Marisa doesn't even act like an asshole in manga, just the game really

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665219
Village bicycle

[Anonymous No.]

>>44668754
nobody wants to fuck an autistic youkai sympathiser
Reimu is a femcel waiting for a rich man to marry her

[Anonymous No.]

>>44628286
>we still don't know exactly what he was executed for

Because if humans realized they can become powerful youkai fairly easily, without any innate talent, and with no oversight or opportunity for people like Yukari or Reimu to catch them and judge them a non-issue, it would absolutely fuck up the balance of power. He had to die so what he did didn't get out and become common practice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665299
> Not everyone can only like characters if they are nice or goody two-shoes.
I would probably find this way easier to accept if fans weren't so eager to turn character into both.

>Most of them are cocky and demeaning whenever they start or win a fight,
A bit, sure. But even then outside of fights they are generally shown as being good people on average with relatable motives.

>>44665320
Marisa is probably one of the nicer characters if you get around some of her quirks. Even in the games there are moments where it's pretty clear a lot of her meaner behavior is just her putting on airs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44668911
>Reimu is a femcel waiting for a rich man to marry her
She doesn't realize the Hakurei Shrine Maiden's traditional marriage method of "Forcing outsiders or villagers she rescues to marry her".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665305
Nobody reads Aya's dross, certainly not in the Human Village.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672321
Incorrect, Kosuzu has a stall that sells out of Aya's paper. Villagers love Aya's works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672341
I feel that's a retcon...

Though, I do wonder, do they even realize they are reading Youkai news?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672352
>Though, I do wonder, do they even realize they are reading Youkai news?
Nah, they don't know they're reading youkai perspectives because they're reading special editions she puts out for human consumption.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672437
Fair enough then. Wonder if the human village has it's own printing press.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672519
Far as I recall, FS also established they still use wood block printing for mass book publishing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672533
Then I do wonder why they aren't a bit more suscipious.

Then again, I imagine it's the ussual village motto of "Just don't think about it. Thinking about it will only make the pain worse."

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672533
>wood block printing
Damn, I'd imagined they're at least on moveable type by now, what with amount of people and youkai coming to Gansokyo from after it was estabilished in east asia.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44672437
>>44672541
They do know, just like they know youkai are in the village
They just don't care since business is business
They know the Kappa run those gadget stalls, they're fine because the products are useful and the kappa usually buy shit themselves with the same money

[Anonymous No.]

>>44673531
It's hard to say. Kosuzu was genuinly unaware of Aya being a youkai. But everybody seems to realize that Suika is a Oni but they just... don't awknolwedge it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44673599
Those horns are gigantic anon

[Anonymous No.]

>>44673900
I know. Nor does she bother to hide them. Very much flaunting the fact she's befriended Reimu and Yukari.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44673933
Well, Yukari also doesn't like her visiting the village often

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674006
That's probably more of a "do not fuck this up, Yukari is watching" warning than a "stop doing it" warning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674027
It probably doesn't help that she keeps calling her a friendless loser desperate for attention.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674040
I thought Yukari was used to nobody liking her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674045
Yeah, but it's more personal when it's a supposed friend doing it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674045
I mean she still screws with people for not inviting her to parties

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674095
Yukari is a petty bitch. She goes around murdering children for kicks then wonders why nobody likes her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674192
To be fair
some kids deserve to get fucked

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674345
I feel that would be a tough sell to most people though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674027
I mean yeah, but that's just because Suika would absolutely folded Yukari in a straight battle anon so she can't really do anything about her

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674345
Fuck off Kasen

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674345
Phrasing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44674192
She doesn't kill children, people keep repeating this devoid of the context.
In Sakuya's PCB Extra stage ending Yukari makes a joke about how adults and children wash up at her place due to the barrier being weak there, Sakuya then gets mad and tells her to put them!
She's just fucking with Sakuya, we never even see these supposed people and the scene is clearly written to be a joke.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681687
Put them where exactly? In Remilia's larder?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681698
>fuck
I meant to say, Sakuya wanted them put back, apparently she doesn't like even the implication of children being kidnapped.
Although Yukari never claims to kidnap them, she just leads Sakuya to that conclusion

[Anonymous No.]

>>44629763
If it's the word of ZUN contradicting the word of ZUN, like a later blog post or email vs earlier game omake, then it's a retcon. If it is in universe characters words against another character, then it's not. It's important to understand that many of the printworks are done from an in universe perspective. PMiSS being Akyuu's chronicles, BAiJR being Aya's newspaper and AFuEU is a literal tabloid magazine, WaHH is Kasen's point of view, and FS is from Kozuzu's point of view. What all of these characters have in common is that they do not have the entire picture and put their own flairs on things. Akyuu consults with Yukari and other youkai for their representation, Aya embellishes the truth and is a known pathological liar, Kasen is an Oni haunted by her past, and Kozuzu is a teenage girl who collects demonic books and has been affected by them. I mean, would you believe a story told from Yukari's POV to be fact? ZUN likes his unreliable narrator, and the only time we see things truly for how they are is in the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681828
Remember when people said ZUN retconned Shou to being trapped underground with the rest of the Hijiri simps? They forgot about Marisa route in UFO.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681828
Nah, there's plenty of retconning even with in-universe works, like PMiSS acting as if humans being used as a fear farm is common knowledge and youkai casually visiting the village without even pretending to be human, even though later works make it clear that the villagers don't really understand their position in Gensokyo, even if some suspect they're just being used by them, and most youkai at least pretend not to be youkai when they visit the village.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681926
PMiSS is the gensokyo chronicles while they’re finished. In-canon, it still hasn’t been finished, so the canon is still in the past.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682066
You can even see things progress towards PMiSS with more Youkai interacting peacefully with villagers and barely hiding their identities.
Something Mizuchi points out and is disgusted by.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681926
Isn't PMiSS mostlyvwritten from Akyuu's perspective? Then it counts as in-universe perspective that's not 100% reliable and absolute like ZUN's own words in blogpost, interviews, omake, etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682164
I'd argue that it's less Akyuu's personal perspective and more the perspective she wants the villagers to have, though there are some articles that clearly are co-written by the youkai in question. Yukari's being the obvious case.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665165
It's the realm where souls live as animals, which may be considered hellish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682164
Written from Akyuu's perspective, knowledge, bias, and with input from other people and youkai concerning their articles. Said youkai also ask her to write them to be stronger than they actually are because who wouldn't want to embellish their own image? Yuuka has the worst "Human Friendship Level" but still goes to shop in the village according to villagers.
While some things are dubious or flat out wrong, it's the best source of info for canon since it's so comprehensive. That said you should still use your brain. Akyuu also puts in her own takes on things and she truly wants to archive Gensokyo's history.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682293
Yeah, girl straight up writes fanfic for Sakuya's portion. which is super dishonest.
"Nobody knows what her deal is so here's by baseless speculation with no alternative on it!"
When not presented with an alternative people will default to her fanfic, even though she admitted it to be mere speculation.

[Anonymous No.]

Imagine liking Troonhou. Go take a bath!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44623787
Symposium and FS are meant to hype up the potential dangers of youkai in a situation where youkai are becoming less and less scary as the series becomes more and more whimsical.

The yokai's sense of self getting threatened, because they aren't scary anymore, has been a running theme since the Religion games, which runs counter to a grimdark reading being the actual state of things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682802
>The yokai's sense of self getting threatened, because they aren't scary anymore
I'm scared of girls

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682843
even this one?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682802
>The yokai's sense of self getting threatened, because they aren't scary anymore
That's because they have yet to pay attention to the phrase "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." A youkai being attracted to you is far scarier than her trying to kill you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682846
Terrifying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682126
>>44682066
>It's not canon because PMISS is written in the future
What the fuck is this dumb argument?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44681687
Anon, Yukari's title is "The one behind the spiriting away". Spiriting away traditionally refers to children going missing, and it's even mentioned it happened to Sumireko(Though, obviously, she survived).

Yeah, It's possible she was just fucking with Sakuya. But it's hard to say when her title is literally "Ms Child Abductor".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682164
Any argument of "Unreliable narrator" kind of falls apart when it involves the Human Village. I can see Akyuu lying about Youkai to the human villagers or vice versa, I could even see her lying about Youkai to other Youkai, but lying about the human village to the human villagers... That seems very unlikely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682268
So, wait, the human souls aren't actually human?

>>44682802
>which runs counter to a grimdark reading being the actual state of things.
Not really, no. Youkai are becoming more civilized but they are still total sociopaths.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44682293
>Yuuka has the worst "Human Friendship Level" but still goes to shop in the village according to villagers.
You don't actually have to like people to buy shit from the store
They have products, Yuuka has cash
The relationship need not go any farther

[Anonymous No.]

>>44683617
She's pretty pleasant and friendly though. I honestly imagine it wouldn't be THAT hard to bond with her over flowers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44683139
Sumireko has Fantasy Syndrome, she's a psychic and unintentionally pulls herself into Gensokyo, in WaHH we even see her do the opposite when visiting Gensokyo in her dreams.
"Humaning away" the residents of Gensokyo into the outside world, something Yukari takes credit for.

And I'm not saying Yukari doesn't kill people or spirit them away to Gensokyo, we know the humans are off limits and the vampires have to be provided with food.
I just find it hard to believe she's going around eating children, besides the phenomenon she describes does happen, humans wash up in weak part of the barrier like around the Hakurei shrine or the suicidals who are fond on the Road of Reconsideration.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44684147
>I just find it hard to believe she's going around eating children,
Why? Youkai target children all the time in myths and, frankly, I don't see much of a reason to assume they do not in Gensokyo. Hell, even if Sumireko is a special case there isn't much of a reason to assume Yukari doesn't target children. Orphans, runaways, unwanted children. All very obvious targets.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44684289
While there are definitely cases of man-eating youkai outside of Former Hell in Gensokyo, we're led to believe that it's something that's supposed to be decreasing in frequency. There's little benefit otherwise to eating outside world children, seeing as their family would never attribute their disappearances to youkai, just diddlers and wildlife.
Even for how poorly adapted most youkai are, socially speaking, there's at least a nominal attempt to move towards sustainable coexistence by the powers that be in Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44684364
>we're led to believe that it's something that's supposed to be decreasing in frequency.
No. Villagers being eaten is decreasing. Outsiders are not.

>There's little benefit otherwise to eating outside world children, seeing as their family would never attribute their disappearances to youkai, just diddlers and wildlife.
1: Considering Youkai want to be feared children are probably a delicacy. 2: Like I said, plenty of children could go missing with nobody caring even in Japan.

>there's at least a nominal attempt to move towards sustainable coexistence by the powers that be in Gensokyo.
It's coexistence in the same way cows coexist with humans.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44684778
Oh, you're just a grimfag, nevermind then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685173
Nothing that post said is outside of canon, why do you dismiss it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685297
Nobody in the village would even know about Outsider Children disappearing and there's no reason for them to be eaten for the majority of youkai. Your response is outside of canon in that, even for the most grim details, it never reaches the level of grimderp you're claiming it is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685324
I'm not the anon you were arguing with, your beef is not with me.
>Nobody in the village would even know about Outsider Children disappearing
What do villagers have to do with this?
>there's no reason for them to be eaten for the majority of youkai
Human meat is human meat. As long as it's not from a villager, why should youkai care where it came from?
Your claim of coexistence is also dubious, considering that the only effort for it ever was forbidding killing villagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685468
Anon the Youkai literally aren't allowed to eat villagers, even back in EoSD this was cannon, as borught up my Meiling.
There are humans Youkai are allowed to eat, like outsiders and shrine maidens, and ones they are not, like the villagers.
I don't care how little sense it makes to you, it's cannon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685575
Anon, please calm down and reread my post.
Literally the last sentence in my post is about youkai NOT eating villagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685575
Ignore him, he hasn't read official material like WaHH and as such likes to pretend his fanon is real.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685615
>>44685468
Oh sorry Anon, anyways the Youkai do make efforts for co-existence, senkibanki lives in the village, Kagerou wants to become closer to people in general, when human gamblers start coming to youkai gambling dens they make safer dens in the village for humans, mamizou's entire thing is trying to manipulate the villagers to have a better opinion and be more willing to work with tanuki, the rabbits and Eintei sell cheap, afforadble and effective medicine made by a god.
The Moriys shrine crew work on introducing technology and modernization, and haven't been stopped even though Reimu and Yukari aren't exactly their biggest fans.
Heck in FS when Kosuzu learns about the deception about the villager's place, she correctly surmises that the thing the villagers are being deceived about is the fact that they are powerless, when in reality the human village has a total monopoly on the one things all the Youkai need, human's believing in them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685661
One thing that never is brought up, and probably never will, is do the villagers want to leave?
They know of the outside, they've seen what it has with their own eyes. It's a weird situation where their life is good when compared to the a post modern society that they originated from, but is there a reason why anyone would stick to it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685785
I don't know?Honestly I wish we had more PoV from the villagers themselves, I don't think most would leave and just prefer to stay with their current life style, unless their ambitious in which case they'd probably try to game the system.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685785
Why? Their only information from the outside works comes from books and the testimony from outsiders which doesn't paint the full picture. They'd have to abandon their current life and families and friends to go to a world they know little about.

[Anonymous No.]

Nothing else that has come out for Touhou has even been as dark in tone as Dolls is Pseudo Paradise. In context, sure maybe something WBaWC is darker, but definitely not in tone.
And DiPP is about as old as EoSD. So no, OP, I think you're huffing paint.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44683673
I think she just doesn't want to be bothered. If everyone knows sees her as the scary mean flower youkai lady they'll be inclined to leave her alone and stay out of her way. She probably gets a kick out of seeing humans flee in terror just at the sight of her flashing a smile.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686048
Except DiPP outright WAS retconned and Gen 1 Windows was mostly lighter in tone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686261
I remember ZUN also posted something on his blog about lightening up the tone around then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686089
It's way funnier if you interpret the villager testimonies in PMiSS as Yuuka not actually trying to intimidate anyone but being reserved and maybe a little socially awkward.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686261
Its canonicity is beside the point. The point is that it's always been intended for Touhou to have a pretty dark setting underneath all the girls, and DiPP was a glimpse of what it could've been if ZUN went that route. It was bleak, uncaring, and full of death. Mind you DiPP was before Touhou 6.
In Touhou 6 dialogue, literally everyone wanted to eat you or serve you up, besides Cirno. Even Patchy implied in EoSD she wanted to eat Marisa, which be out of character nowadays. It might be "haha classic Touhou character banter!" nowadays, but put yourself back in 2002 when nobody knew shit about Touhou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686475
Sorry, I meant "after Touhou 6".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686475
Somebody asked him about it around release and he clarified that it was just banter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686569
Any source on that? Not a lot of really early interviews.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685785
Besides Fortune Teller, it's never been confirmed. One thing that can be said, without any question, is that they do really LIKE the outside world. At best, I imagine they would probably be okay with leaving if they could take their family with him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685324
> would even know about Outsider Children disappearing
They know about outsiders and they know most of them die.

> and there's no reason for them to be eaten for the majority of youka
How so?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44685661
>senkibanki lives in the village
Nobody knows she's a youkai and she mostly sticks to herself.

>Kagerou wants to become closer to people in general,
She's a werewolf.

>when human gamblers start coming to youkai gambling dens they make safer dens in the village for humans,
Because most of them don't want to see perfectly good cattle go to waste.

>mamizou's entire thing is trying to manipulate the villagers to have a better opinion and be more willing to work with tanuk
So she can take over Gensokyo.

>the rabbits and Eintei sell cheap, afforadble and effective medicine made by a god.
>The Moriys shrine crew work on introducing technology and modernization
Not Youkai.

>she correctly surmises that the thing the villagers are being deceived about is the fact that they are powerless, when in reality the human village has a total monopoly on the one things all the Youkai need, human's believing in them.
They are still totally powerless in practice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44688046
They know only because they're told about it. It would make zero difference if they were lied to about it for the purpose of youkai's survival.
>>44688064
>Not Youkai
The Earth Rabbits are explicitly youkai, secondary-kun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44688258
>They know only because they're told about it.
Marisa literally mentions you can regularly find corpses outside the human village.

>The Earth Rabbits are explicitly youkai, secondary-kun.
Not Eirin.

[Anonymous No.]

It does sound like a pretty shitty life
>be villager
>spring just doesn't come one year
>crops in shambles

>be villager
>night of absolute pandemonium keeps happening

>be villager
>eternal night
>youkai come out and are stronger at night
>wait the shrine maiden paused the night?

>be villager
>subject to holy wars

>be villager
>hear about a fucking lunar invasion from moon soldiers

>be villager
>now instead of no spring there's every season simultaneously
>crops in shambles

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689831
Who are you quoting? Also stop using reddit spacing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689831
The Youkai were the ones sperging about the night, Keine hid the village using her erasure of history.
Also the relgious conflicts had no negative effects on the villagers, they became popular to bet on, nobody was hurt, and the incident was resolved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689878
>Also the relgious conflicts had no negative effects on the villagers
Imagine getting preached about how your oppressors are actually nice people because they aren't murdering you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689831
most of these, the villagers don't even hear about

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689886
Byakuren's a sperg, but it's not like anybody actually listened to the sermons or really cared about it beyond as a form of sports betting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44689892
They have lives outside reading Aya's trash.

>>44689897
>Byakuren was a sperg nobody took seriously.
>Miko was using anybody that signed up
>Kanako lives on top of Youkai mountain.
Nobody likes religions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44692647
Byakuren actually seems decently well liked given the fact her monastery is the only place we've seen to normally have worshipers and visitors outside of holidays and festivals.
She also seems pretty effective, such as in the Whaletits books where a guys desire for alcohol became so divorced from him it turned into a desires spirit after he started going to the temple.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44694390
I guess? I don't know, people don't seem to believe her stance on Youkai if nothing else. Suppose she might personally be popular though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44694390
The Myouren Temple is the closest geographically to the Human Village. That's all. Miko has very stringent standards for supplicants, and her approach is very hands-off (which is in line with Taoist beliefs), so the complacent populace of the Village isn't into that. Kanako's place is far away AND she's worshipped by youkai, making visits potentially perilous outside of organised events.

Byakuren wins by default regardless of her actual merits, and that's only because she fucking landed her ship on Miko's grave.

Also, creating disembodied spirits isn't a good thing, neither for humans nor for youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695385
Isn't Miko also conning potential supplicants?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695402
No. She uses them as servants/house help/couriers, but again, that is perfectly in-line with her religious convictions and the Taoist doctrine. You're supposed to learn by osmosis and find YOUR OWN Way when studying Taoism. The people of the Village are turned off by this because the Human Village has been conditioned into passive kami/religious authority worship for the purposes of Gensokyo.

Plus, they're generally a lazy people. Taoism just isn't compatible with their lifestyle and expectations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695385
What are your beef towards our head priestess, scum?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695469
She's a hypocrite. Have you read the Symposium?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695385
I don't really like her, I just don't think she's disliked to any great extent. Also Kanako's is safe they have a tramway up the mountain which the Tengu and everybody else are fine with and don't attack.
Also my example of the desire spirit wasn't it being a good or bad thing, just that she effectively severed someone from their desires, albeit unintentionally.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695452
That's fair, I guess.

Miko in general just seems to be trying to pick up the most worthwhile people and then leave Gensokyo for the heavens. Which, I can understand that isn't very appealing to most villagers even if it would provide personal salvation.

>>44695469
She's a hypocrite and a dumb idealist. Mind you, Miko is a hypocrite as well but she's self aware about it and has a much more mature view on religion and youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695599
>I just don't think she's disliked to any great extent.
This may or may not be the case these days or in specific cases of her express human pupils, but going by what was said in the Symposium, the Myouren Temple itself is not a friendly place for humans, and Byakuren doesn't really care to address that.
>Also my example of the desire spirit wasn't it being a good or bad thing
No, but it is an example of Byakuren being careless and ignorant. Which further solidifies the Myouren Temple's position as "convenient/ly placed" over any other merit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44695658
Anon I'm just saying she isn't totally incompetent at her job and isn't totally hated. That's not mutually exclusive with her success having to do with convenient placement, besides with the human worshipers we do see in her temple it's clear that she's somewhat succeeded in making the temple more amicable for humans.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44696074
Until further information is released, she still hasn't brought Murasa in line to get her to stop murdering people, and Byakuren is clearly too averse to rocking the boat (pun not intended) to do much about her closer youkai followers if she feels even slightly like it would result in driving them away.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44698946
Living people don't cross the Sanzu, she explicitly sinks the Sanzu ferry, which while a dick move isn't really hurting anybody.
Yeah her entry in SoPM implies she drowns anybody she can get her hands on, but it's written by Akyuu who admits to bias, and the villagers, the only non-outsider humans to drown, are protected.
That said I do agree that she probably does drown outsiders and would drown the villager if she could get away with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44699141
>isn't really hurting anybody.

>Dead souls can't cross the Sanzu because the ferry gets sunk
>Those souls turn into any number of nasty things like phantoms, poltergeists, or, most likely: vengeful spirits
>These vengeful spirits then cause trouble for Gensokyo

In either case, it's still gross negligence from Byakuren, even if I don't fault her for it to the same level I do Yukari for actively sustaining the status quo of Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44698946
I don't think it's possible change Murasa completely, funayurei are too obsessed with their death to let go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44699455
It's astounding how Byakuren's wilful ignorance just keeps manifesting.

- Lied, cheated and murdered her way into longevity
- Sealed for her crimes against humanity
- Attempted (thankfully, without success) to prevent Miko's resurrection, an event that the world itself later rejoiced about
- Needlessly prolonged the Urban Legend incident, a crisis that is still ongoing to this day
- Refused to address criticism of her temple during the Symposium, all the while claiming moral high ground
- Neglects reining her subordinates in, causing all sorts of minor trouble as a result
- Neglects her human worshippers, causing other kinds of trouble in effect
- Badmouthed one of the extremely few, actually friendly youkai around
- Has the gall to act as though she's always in the right

How the hell people ever arrived at the "youkai Jesus" meme, I cannot for the life of me say. She's really lucky Gensokyo was made to shelter youkai such as her, else she would've been outed and brought to heel by Reimu or the Sages a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44705304
>Badmouthed one of the extremely few, actually friendly youkai around
Who? Aunn?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44705304
>Needlessly prolonged the Urban Legend incident, a crisis that is still ongoing to this day
Nigger all playable characters that not named Reimu, Kasen, or Mamizou in that games prolonged the damn incident

[Anonymous No.]

>>44705304
She very much is one of the least honest characters in Gensokyo, but I'd still give her more of a pass than the more active evils in Gensokyo. Byakuren can be described best as paranoid and power-hungry as a result. The loss of her brother clearly affected her deeply, and unfortunately, there are no therapists in Gensokyo. This is why she's afraid to rock the boat, and kowtows to the status quo, as you can plainly see in SoPM where she outright tries to claim Gensokyo's whole dynamic between humans and youkai is a good thing, in spite of it clearly being far from the coexistence she claims to support. And that's likely also the reason she doesn't properly discipline her subordinates, not that her weird dynamic with Shou helps at all, although Shou doesn't seem too bad by comparison.

In short: I can forgive her because I can fix her, which I can't say about certain others.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44706084
And yet, Byakuren is the only one who wilfully refuses a WORKING SOLUTION because she wants the glory of solving the incident, rather than letting her "rival" end it peacefully right there and then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44706544
>Byakuren is the only one who wilfully refuses a WORKING SOLUTION
What the hell are you talking about, the only working solution to Urban Legend is by beating (scaring) the shit out of Sumireko, while Byak never encountered the incident resolver in her route or their's
>rather than letting her "rival" end it peacefully right there and then
Why would her? Explain to me why should Byakuren gave her BALLS to Miko when both of their "solution" is basically the same shit (collect them BALLS and put it in their temple)?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44706730
Anon, you might want to re-read ULiL's dialogue. First of all, no, beating up Sumireko did not resolve the Urban Legend kerfuffle, the Balls and Urban Legends remain an active threat to this day, and all that happened was Sumireko quit ripping holes in Gensokyo's barrier with the Balls. The main trouble with them: spawning Urban Legends, was never nullified, only allowed to become part of Gensokyo's ecosystem. They're still active and dangerous, and the manga bring them up now and then as a possible cause for some of the incidents of the month.

Second of all, the Occult Balls go inert when placed within a Senkai or, presumably, any other private Otherworld. Miko suggested this solution to Byakuren in Byakuren's route, on the basis of "I don't trust you" (which is rich, coming from her) and the fact that she really wanted Myouren Temple to be the ones who solved the incident. This, of course, backfired, as evidenced in her ending.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44706849
>Miko suggested this solution to Byakuren in Byakuren's route, on the basis of "I don't trust you"
I accidentally part of the sentence there, but you get the gist. Byakuren refused the solution that would've rendered the Occult Balls harmless.

[Anonymous No.]

On the topic of the OP's mention of the TTRPG that released yesterday, is there anyone else working on an early translation? If not I was thinking of buying the digital copy and MTLing it myself to get the basics down.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44705304
>Neglects her human worshippers, causing other kinds of trouble in effect
I'm actually curious about this, from what we see she seems quit attentive, at least after the symposium since that's when we start seeing more human worshipers at her temple.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44706730
>Explain to me why should Byakuren gave her BALLS to Miko
Phrasing.

[Anonymous No.]

So does ZUN have a issue with religion itself, or just the religious institutions? It seems like he just can't stop making all the religious factions unlikable in one way or the other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44707376
If you do, could you also get the replay with ZUN? I have 0 clue where else it'd be besides bundled with a purchase of the game itself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44709671
ZUN makes every hu unlikable with like three or four exceptions, mostly non-combatants. They're belligerent and selfish jackasses who hardly need an excuse to beat each other. It's not something specific to religions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44709682
It's part of the corebook to be used as an example of play from what I can tell. I'm about to get the screencaps, though it's going to take a bit to MTL them because Bookwalker doesn't have pdf downloads.

[Anonymous No.]

At this point, humans shouldn't have sex. Why bring their kids to suffer in Gensokyo?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44711578
>humans shouldn't have sex
With each other. Humans should be made to have as much youkai sex as possible, because it's not like half youkai are doing bad or anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44709671
No.

I think Miko's opinion is probably the closest to his real world views on religion. Buddhism is a tool. Shinto is a tool. He actually seems to think that it's necessary while also acknowledging that it's not going to happen and it's all a fraud.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44712186
>He actually seems to think that it's necessary while also acknowledging that it's not going to happen and it's all a fraud.
The only thing he doesn't seem to portray cynically is booze it seems
Also what's not going to happen?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44711915
The one half-youkai we know of is genuinely one of the more well-adjusted residents of Gensokyo in spite of his autism, not to mention all the benefits of being a half-youkai. Human men need to fuck nonhuman women more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44718131
There's no guarantee that the children will be half-youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44718137
Maybe for (You). I, however, will ensure the perfect genetics for the legions of half-breeds I will leave in my wake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44705304
She's definitely one of the shittiest characters in the series to me, and its not really surprising that Reimu is absolutely disgusted at people who turn themselves into youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44717950
Seeing the future of the Touhou universe, I think ZUN doesn't have a high opinion on society in general .
I think that poster means an afterlife and a way of achieving some sort of enlightenment. The ultimate goal of a religion in a sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44718332
ZUN's works have been critical of society for a very long time. Its more blatant in some than others, but its usually present.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44711915
>>44718131
Youkai hands typed these posts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
tl;dr give a qrd

[Anonymous No.]

>>44721012
Pre 2012 lore was vague enough for Gensokyo to be interpreted in different ways. Then in 2012 ZUN validated grimfags by dropping a lot of bombs about the setting, making Gensokyo 100% a shithole, and any interpretation beyond that became impossible without completely ignoring several printworks.
Thanks for reading my blog

[Anonymous No.]

>>44718331
Reimu is a privilliged whiny bitch who doesn't understand what it's like to not be the bitch queen of Gensokyo. She's the reason people like FT want to turn into Youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44717950
Some kind of religious revival.

>>44711915
>>44718131
Unironically: I feel the sages or Reimu would probably crack down if halfbreeds started to become a problem since, by all accounts, they are the master race and would pretty quickly take over Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44722827
Flandre's profile had her eating meals that were made of human flesh. Prepared by the human maid no less.
How is that not gruesome?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44726423
Most character are monsters, so there were always going to be moments like this. Besides, this bit about Flandre proves my point.
There's no mention of "flesh" in Flandre's profile or dialogue, only "human". Some come to a conclusion that there is flesh, it's just not mentioned, and go through implications of that. Others assume that, since Scarlets are vampires, they need blood, so their food has human blood, and go through implications of that. And so, they arrive to different conclusions
about the nature of the setting because of that ambiguity, and this continued for ten more years.
You might say that I see things that aren't there, but I think that now such setting-altering ambiguity has become rare, and that most things now can only be seen one way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44726839
The human ingredient is ambiguous enough to let you interpret it as literal flesh and meat baked into cake and tea, or it's just their blood cooked into it. The blood thing would make more sense since it's used as an ingredient in IRL foods like pudding, so it's not too far off to think Sakuya couldn't put it in a cake as well. But even so they still kept humans to feed off of and it's only because of the peculiarities of the vampires that they aren't outright killed.

[Anonymous No.]

What if the human ingredient is semen?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728280
It must be purge to avoid future abominations

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728280
Now that anon is what we call 'lewdsokyo'. Rather than getting eaten by youkai you're "eaten" by youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728280
Yes, youkai must consume human semen to survive

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728230
Yes that is plausible explanation, they definitely could just keep some humans in a cellar like wine barrels until they're dry.
That's an example of the point of what I'm trying to say. That is, our conversation itself is the point I'm trying to make.
The way this one point in a character's profile is interpreted defines the way one would look at not just this one character, but the entire cast, and maybe the setting as a whole. That's the beauty of it. Back in the day people could have all kinds of varied interpretations that, aside from meme ones, didn't stray all that much from canon. Hell, I'd say even something like >>44728280 could be valid back then if you put some effort into it. But now, the only ones who even can have alternate interpretations are those unfamiliar with canon material, those who ignore it, and those optimistic fools who still think we live in 2009. And the only points of ambiguity that are left are either those that existed before 2012, or those that barely mater.
Sorry if you just wanted to talk about vampires' dietary habits, I just felt like this was a good opprtunity to rerail this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

So, how many of you actually have original Touhou CDs?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728314
I mean, even in canon Gensokyo youkai apparently like to keep outsiders around for a while before eating them. Make of that what you will.

[Anonymous No.]

Somewhat off-topic, but how was business resolved before the spell card rules were established by Reimu? An elaborate prequel work of sorts focused on the Pre-SDM era would be interesting, but i doubt we will ever see such.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44729926
PC-98.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44729958
That is most likely the case, but to be honest i hold the canonicity of PC-98 at least somewhat questionable knowing how besides a few dialogue references and a small cast of returning characters it's been swept under the rug. In addition Zun stating that the works are safe to be ignored somewhat reinforces my notion that PC-98, at least to some extent, is not canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44729926
Hakurei maiden comes in. Beats the person causing trouble to within a inch of their life. Then leaves.

No wonder every Hakurei Shrine Maiden before Reimu was probably a total sociopath.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44665165
It's like christian heaven as a "state of connection to god" in theology vs a garden paradise with angels playing harps in pop culture. Popular belief and mythology can grow pretty detached from strict religious philosophy, then Zun throws in his personal interpretation, in his full right as an author.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728314
I think it would be much scarier if youkai kidnapped men and used them as breeding slaves instead of eating them and I think I would also volunteer to save my fellow men from such a terrible fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644680
>The human souls in WBaWC aren't in hell though, they're in the Animal Realm, which is different.
The prologue of WBaWC clearly talks about going to hell(地獄).
The idea of the animal realm being the buddhist animal realm probably came from the same kanjis(畜生界) being used as in the buddhist realms (畜生道), but it could also be inspired the buddhist-ish(?) chinese hells that had (畜生地獄) beast hell, where animals maul sinners constantly or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44730637
I understand that, I just don't really understand what exactly the animal realm is in relation to everything else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44709801
How's the MTL going?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44735112
I just figured it was a place in hell were the spirits of animals and humans went after they died, the animals as a sort of default and the humans as sinners.
Obviously their crime would be something like mistreatment of animals, so the human sinners are delivered to a hell were animals abuse them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44729159
None? And you call yourselves Touhou fans?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44735776
That was my assumption as well. It' a pretty ironic hell all things considered.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44735976
I live south america i would have to import it from Japan and that would cost me a liver or a family member.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44736718
Fair enough

[Anonymous No.]

>>44735415
On and off, it's slow and tedious because bookwalker doesn't allow you to download things as pdfs. But for starters, the basic mechanica function on rolling multiple D6s, with the goal of one of them meeting or exceeding a target value. By default, an average difficulty check is 2D6 with a target of 4. Any of the dice rolling a 6 is a Special (see: Critical Success) and all of them rolling a 1 is a Critical Fumble.
There are, as mentioned in the announcement, two premade Scenarios, with, thankfully, neither of them being a rehash of any of the games.
The premade playable characters are Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Meiling, Patchouli, Remilia, Flandre, Cirno, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Reisen, Mokou, Aya, Yuuka, Nitori, Sanae, Suwako, Tenshi, Satori, Koishi, Utsuho, Byakuren, Nue, Futo, Miko, Mamizou, and Kasen.
The extent of customization with premade characters is selecting a single "Personality Skill" at the beginning of the game, which can range from effects such as allowing the character to negate an affliction from a Critical Fumble, to what is basically a prep time meme of being able to pull a single item out of your ass that you didn't have earlier.
The Exploration Phase is the main section I've successfully MTLed and parsed: It goes through several day cycles with the goal of the PCs being to clear all the "Quests" the GM has set up, or simply to clear as many as possible before a given time limit is up. All characters have a location that is their "base" which is where they start, and in the Morning Step a D66 table is rolled for Bunbunmaru Newspaper News, which essentially gives a modifier for that day. (Notably, Aya can alter what the result is, though I need to double-check the specifics on how and if it costs resources.) The Afternoon and Evening Steps allow characters to travel around by D6 roll, triggering exploration events at various locations, and usually trying to reach one of the randomly places clues for Quests. Rolling and choosing a 6 for movement also rolls another table with results including things such as being randomly shunted to another area, getting to move to the location of another PC, or having a random mook encounter (AKA what happened to the rest of Team 9.) In the Night Step, you're returned to your "Base" unless you have the Outdoors Person Personality Skill (which for obvious reasons means that skill makes a world of difference in how you play the exploration phase.) In all steps you gain Spiritual Power (one of the character resources, not 100% what it's used for yet) based on the region you're in, with each individual location being a part of one of the 6 regions.
I'll provide more updates once I have more MTLed, currently working through the "Decisive Battle" Phase while a friend does some of the work on the demonstration that takes up the first 3rd of the book (the test play with ZUN.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>44740025
Thank you for your work, it doesn't seem like anyone on /tg/ is doing anything.
I don't know much about japanese TRPGs, but from what little I've read, I'm glad that at least some of them try to bring in something unexpected into play with random tables, even if the're still ultimately made to be railroaded like most RPGs past 1981.
Also, no character creation yet? Is it further into the book than the rules?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44740427
I'd imagine if there's any guides to homebrewing new characters they're in the GM's section. That said, from what little I've seen across the various premade ones, they're more than consistent enough for someone to make an outline for custom character creation. So yes, (You) can finally self-insert into a semi-official Touhou TTRPG.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44740025
Nice. Reminds me a lot more of MAID than the other Touhou TTRPGs, though one of those is also untranslated. Thank you for your good work.

>>44740427
Did /tg/ have translation threads from time to time? I feel like at one point it did, but I wouldn't be surprised if the speed of the board no longer permits it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44740516
They used to have a general for japanese games, and I believe they translated some too.

[Anonymous No.]

How would cumming in a youkai's anus feels like?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44644712
Sauce?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44741201
https://exhentai.org/g/1427343/8fedeff412/

[Anonymous No.]

>>44740552
Neck yourself

[Anonymous No.]

Unironically: Is Reimu going to be forced to marry somebody eventually? She seems to be the last Hakurei and the bloodline must continue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44741976
It's not about Bloodline at all, even ignoring that ZUN himself has stated that the setting won't ever advance in spite of nominally existing in lockstep with real world time. The final chapter of SSiB, prior to Reimu returning, had Aya mention that "[they would] need to find a new Hakurei Shrine Maiden soon" if Reimu didn't show up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44741976
It probably doesn't matter as they could just grab any girl and train her up in a few years to replace her. But they wouldn't be against it as the possibility of her daughter inheriting her mothers power and being trained by her would make Reimu Jr powerful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621154
Kill ZUN fanboys. Behead ZUN fanboys. Roundhouse kick a ZUN fanboy into the concrete. Slam dunk a ZUN fanboy's child into the trashcan. Crucify filthy weeb. Defecate in a ZUN fanboy's mailbox. Launch ZUN fanboys into the sun. Stir fry ZUN fanboys in a pan. Toss ZUN fanboys into active volcanoes. Urinate into a ZUN fanboy's gas tank. Judo throw ZUN fanboys into a wood chipper. Twist ZUN fanboys heads off. Report ZUN fanboys to the CIA. Kill ZUN fanboys with drones.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44741976
The Hakurei is stored in the (Yin yang) balls, not the miko

[Anonymous No.]

>>44742015
>It's not about bloodline at all
It's not? When was that ever confirmed?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44748296

[Anonymous No.]

Back on topic, do you have a headcanon you liked that got destroyed later on? For me, it was the general idea of how youkai antagonism toward humanity worked in Gensokyo than, becoming a lot more ritualised rather than just random like in the past, and even random attacks are somewhat ritual-like, with a certain order to them:
youkai jumps a human -> human runs screaming / plays danmaku -> both parties go on their way.
I've already stated why something like this is impossible right now. Hell, I would not be surprised if there is some material already that just outright states that villagers don't know anything about spellcards and genuinely believe all fights they see to be real.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44748662
Not a confirmation.

>>44752398
>do you have a headcanon you liked that got destroyed later on?
I used to like the idea that PCB was correct and the human villagers actually were all secretly badass. Already very rough to combine with PMISS lore, basically impossible nowadays.

Also, to a lesser extent, Marisa being a outsider. Granted, she might still be a outsider but it's becoming more and more unlikely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44755603
Funny how almost everyone I asked believed in villagers' exorcist heritage.
>Marisa being a outsider
Haven't heard that one before, could you elaborate?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44755603
How could she be an outsider if her parents are seemingly native villagers?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44756324
>>44756726
NTA, but her name and the whole stereotypical witch shtick is absolutely western
Granted that could be easily explained by Rinnosuke's love of Outside World stuff influenced the Kirisame-san when naming her daughter and idk probably gave Marisa a children book with witches when she's still an impressionable brat

[Anonymous No.]

>>44756954
Despite supposedly being Japanese you should see a lot more of a cultural blender going on in Gensokyo. If youkai from all around the world are just falling on in constantly (see the SDM really) then it's very improbable they could be having that kind of sustained contact going on since the 1880s without the culture going through something akin to the Roman migration period.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44756995
I mean yeah, but that's youkai
I doubt your average Saito in the village get any outside world information other than the occasional outsider settling down

[Anonymous No.]

>>44756324
Basically what this anon said: >>44756954

My headcanon is that Marisa's mother was a outsider who decided to stay in Gensokyo. She died, probably from childbirth or something stock like that, which goes a long way to explain why Marisa's relationship with her dad seems rather unpleasant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44757037
>I doubt your average Saito in the village get any outside world information other than the occasional outsider settling down
That's basically all they know.

It's actually mentioned outsiders are very popular as a result. Because most villagers are outside world weebs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44757799
Not grim enough.
Her mother was eaten alive in front of her very eyes due to being an outsider before she was saved by Mima/Reinnosuke.
Marisa blaming her mother for being to weak and thus dying fell in love with magic and decided to abandon her humanity.
True grim kino.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44757915
Now she's a little motivated!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44755603
>I used to like the idea that PCB was correct and the human villagers actually were all secretly badass.
PCB prologue technically hasn't been contradicted because we haven't gotten an idea of which Hakurei Miko Reimu actually is, so it's entirely possible that it was true in the past.
That said, if it was true, that only goes to reinforce the relative darkness of the setting, and implies that the humanoid forms many youkai take was for the purpose of disarming the general populace for a generation or two until no real resistance could get traction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44760379
It has been contradicted insofar that it might have happened. It certainly isn't the present of Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44757915
Nah, that's too much. I like the idea of it being something mundane like a illness that would have been cured in the outside world that did her in.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44756954
Speaking of Marisa's name, one headcanon I have that I don't think will be contradicted any time soon is that she changed her name, or at least the kanji of it. Kind of hard to believe that old man Kirisame would name his totally-never-becoming-a-witch daughter "grains of sorcerous knowledge".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44752398
I also thought that youkai-human interaction was just like that before, seeing how they seem to have 0 measures against youkai aside from Reimu is kinda sad, even if it was a one punch man like scenario were they struggle to fight against youkai that Reimu brutally curb stomps afterwards.
>>44748662
If you take the Order of Ecclesia aproach it could be that many villagers have the bloodline, considering how Marisa hasn't copied stuff from her so her powers could just be some awakened Hakurei powers.
But iirc the last time they ever talked about Hakurei bloodline powers explicitly was in PC98 so it could also be completely unrelated to bloodline and they just have to get a anybody human to be accepted by the Hakurei kami or whatever they do that ZUN is never going to address.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44764620
It's certainly possible.

Marisa's backstory is actually pretty interesting and ZUN seems to be taking steps to flesh it out. Though, I'll doubt he'll ever go all the way just because that would involve Mima coming back or being declared non canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44765622
>I'll doubt he'll ever go all the way
He really shoudn't. Most of my issues with Touhou as a setting came from ZUN revealing too much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769078
>Most of my issues with Touhou as a setting came from ZUN revealing too much.
Would you care to elaborate? I find ZUN's writing issues more frequently come from his politics, with the Hifuu albums and the most recent CoLA chapter having some of the most egregious cases of him using characters as mouthpieces.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769104
I can't elaborate fully right now, but I've described it somewhat here >>44722827 and here>>44728535.
Also, I don't think his politics weren't all bad in albums, but he realy did turn Touhou into a shitty "we live in a society" meme later on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769200
Fair enough, the illusion of Gensokyo being a paradise was definitely shattered with more recent lore, but I still maintain that you take an unreasonably cynical view of it if you're behind those posts too. Sure, Gensokyo is a police state where the only influential individuals that do anything to improve it are doing so for purely selfish reasons, but there are a solid number of genuinely good people in canon, and even those like Kanako and Byakuren with selfish motives still do make an honest attempt to improve things in some areas, even if it is a ploy for faith. It's not a hopeless setting, just one that won't advance because of ZUN's status quo worship, not because it's impossible for things to change. A goofball like Sumireko could, with a half-baked plan, nearly manage to create a consistent entryway into Gensokyo, for example. Someone actually competent could do a lot more, and I imagine that's the sort of Scenario you plan on creating in whatever Gensou Narratograph Campaign you'll be running anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769200
Eh, the setting getting "Grimer" is more of a result of the existence of print and side works in the first place; the events of those stories can only really happen if there are troubles for the characters to deal with. If there wasn't any political intrugue or laws about humans becoming Youkai in FS, there wouldn't be any tension.

I also don't feel things only have one perspective you can view them from. Printworks are always heavily biased from a certain character's POV, and rarely in the mangas do we see the complete picture. Even when Kaisen and Yukari reference Yukari's true goal it is in the vaguest language possible, leaving room for interpretation; when humans not being allowed to become Youkai is brought up, what's talked about in the narration is Reimu's beliefs or interpretation of said rule.

Not to mention structurally, Gensokyo doesn't feel like a grim setting; Grim or Grimdark settings reinforce societies' pre-existing morals or way of life: look at all dystopic fiction, which is a grimdark genre all about horrible futures we must avoid, in other words, ways in which society should not change.
While I don't feel as if Gensokyo is nearly as conservative in its messaging, I feel like it exists more to mock and parody the current society it exists in context to, modern-day Japan, rather than reinforce it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44728314
Humans should never have sex with Youkai. How hard is this to understand? Humans belong with humans!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44621084
Everything written in-universe is canon. Not everything written in-universe is true.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769376
The Secret Sealing Club stories actually tackle this in an interesting manner in how in spite of Gensokyo's flaws, the Outside World is steadily becoming less human for entirely different reasons as individual people become commodified and treated more like pieces of equipment or tools, commissioned and decommissioned like ships, all to the backdrop of brutalist, concrete towers and a biosphere suffering steady desertification, under fear of being hunted by drones mirroring the idea that youkai themselves were made by the Lunarians to police humans in a none-dissimilar way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769902
Your choice anon, would you rather be a wageslave in the Outside World who has to work every day to even live or fear-cattle in Gensokyo who has to farm every day and avoid youkai to live

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769902
Yeah, the future in which the Sealing Club stories take place feels like an actual dystopia story, especially with the point of view being people who can't actually change the setting meaningfully.
Compared to the PoVs and characters in Gensokyo, who often have some level of ability to change or control the setting, the incidents being their failed attempts at doing so. Not failed due to Reimu or the powers that be, even if they do act against them, but failed because of how disruptive and harmful they are; something directly exposited during the events of DDC.
While the worm's eye view in the Sealing Club stories makes it seem like things can't change or will change for the worse, even if it directly mirrors the state of current Gensokyo. It's a future that's failed to change or changed incorrectly and suffered for it, definitely more of a Grim or Dystopic setting then Gensokyo is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769274
>Someone actually competent could do a lot more, and I imagine that's the sort of Scenario you plan on creating in whatever Gensou Narratograph Campaign you'll be running anyway.
You are mistaken, I never wanted to run a campaign on "fixing" Gensokyo. In fact, If you'd say something like that to me when I first thought of running it, I'd just call you a grimfag and move on. Now I'm not even sure I want to run a Touhou campaign, because I don't like canon Touhou as a setting. I'd probably have to make my own setting with names and concepts from the original thrown in if I'm to have the campaign I want. Maybe I should make a thread for this, maybe there are people who already thought this out.
>It's not a hopeless setting, just one that won't advance because of ZUN's status quo worship, not because it's impossible for things to change.
I've seen you, or someone else with this opinion, who kept claiming that is the case, that you just need to get friends high up and fix the system from the inside. Go on then, give me a plausible scenario of how would one improve the situation, because I can't imagine one that doesn't end in either the perpetrator joining the elites and doing nothing of value, or getting killed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769200
My issue is mostly that Zun has a habit of letting things hover in the ether totally unresolved. I don't mean in a "Gensokyo has to improve" kind of way. But more in a "Well, this is going to go nowhere" kind of way. As nice as it would be for ZUN to flesh out Marisa's backstory, it's also never going to lead anywhere. His characters are mostly stagnant, basically only Reisen got any establishment (Which is fitting since we know her backstory).

[Anonymous No.]

>>44771525
>I can't imagine one that doesn't end in either the perpetrator joining the elites and doing nothing of value, or getting killed.
Well then it sounds like even if I gave you a dozen scenarios, it wouldn't matter. Yes, that was me with that exact take, in the sense that the most important thing for someone to do if they want to improve things is to make it a very bad idea for someone to try to off them. In Sun Tzu's words "First, make yourself unconquerable." That aside, everything you're saying leads me to believe that you've taken what dark content there is and started hyperfixating on that because your previous mental image of the setting was destroyed, much like a teenager resents their parents because they idolized them as a child, but came to learn they were, in fact, flawed human beings.
As I mentioned, there's a solid handful of individuals that already are trying to improve things, if in relatively minor ways. (I.E. Byakuren, Kanako, Kasen, arguably Marisa as well, and perhaps a few others that don't immediately come to mind.) There's plenty of good still in the setting, but if you CHOOSE to only see the worst parts of it, then of course it's going to seem like a Zounose Doujin. Best I can say is that I hope you don't carry around this fatalistic attitude in real life because goddamn if that wouldn't be a fucking miserable way to live.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769274
>but there are a solid number of genuinely good people in canon,
Isn't that kind of worse though? If every random human villager was shown as being a total twat then at least there was a element of karmatic justice to them being stuck. The fact they are mostly good people makes it more tragic.

Though, to be fair, most of the good people who are actual characters are at least reasonably well off. Keine wouldn't exist without Gensokyo. Mokou is probably happier than she's been in a long time. Aunn wouldn't exist without Gensokyo (Well, she would be a statue still).

>. It's not a hopeless setting,
Sure, but it's mostly hopeful insofar that it's very fragile and could easily break. There isn't really "Fixing" Gensokyo, just the entire place being razed to the ground.

>>44769376
>Not to mention structurally, Gensokyo doesn't feel like a grim setting;
Touhou is weird because it's a dark setting shot mostly from the perspective of the upper class. It's like doing 1984 (Though obviously Gensokyo isn't that bad) but it's all told from the perspective of a party member. It's fun to be the boot, and a lot the more darkly comedic elements of Touhou are based on that. Told from the perspective of a Human villager, and not a special one like Kosuzu, it would be a very different universe.

> I feel like it exists more to mock and parody the current society it exists in context to, modern-day Japan, rather than reinforce it.
It's a farcical take on modern society. It's stripping away any semblance of nuance to reveal the true insanity underneath. The ruling class is not just greedy and self centered, they are literal human flesh eating monsters. The religious figures aren't just self interested and out of touch with their own religion, they are actively dependent on faith for power. The market as a abstract entity is made literal, thus rendered inherently farcical by it's role in the setting and it's effect on the world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44769902
Honestly, the future in the sealing club isn't that bad. The worst excesses are very... mid 2000. Like before people had real issues, basically. It doesn't help that we are viewing it from whiny romanticist college students who are obviously prone to being down on society (Not to say they aren't correct). It's a far cry from a actual dystopian setting, in which they would be killed for wrongthink, or Gensokyo, in which they would just be killed because that is what they do with outsiders.

>>44769918
I would rather be the boot in the outside world, if I had to pick.

>>44770151
>especially with the point of view being people who can't actually change the setting meaningfully.
Isn't that worse though? At least there is a sense of ambiguity and good intentions gone wrong in the future world. We see Gensokyo from the perspective of the people who could change it, but we do so in a way that reveals that they never would. There is no hope or chance of growth. Outside of the place being totally razed, anyhow.

>>44771525
>Go on then, give me a plausible scenario of how would one improve the situation, because I can't imagine one that doesn't end in either the perpetrator joining the elites and doing nothing of value, or getting killed.
Unironically, and I say this without a shred of irony, marry Reimu and help make sure the next Hakurei Shrine Maiden actually ahs good values instead of just being a tool of the system. Worst case scenario she gets killed, and possibly you as well, but in doing so they would probably fuck up Gensokyo beyond repair even assuming they can get a replacement from somewhere.

Otherwise, there basically is no option that doesn't end with a lot of dead bodies on the floor. Most likely including your own.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44771910
>Isn't that worse though? At least there is a sense of ambiguity and good intentions gone wrong in the future world. We see Gensokyo from the perspective of the people who could change it, but we do so in a way that reveals that they never would. There is no hope or chance of growth. Outside of the place being totally razed, anyhow.
Tthe Hourai pharmacy for one didn't operate until after the inhabitants of Eientei opened up to outsiders, the Moriya crew is constantly looking for ways to modernize and introduce new inventions, Kasen is fairly active, although other than that the situation for the villagers has remained largely the same.
Yukari and Reimu also aren't adverse to change, Kasen clearly isn't, and Okina doesn't really seem to care either way, this was basically told to us in DDC, your allowed to change things, just don't cause mass violence or threaten people.
Of course as the status quo is god and ZUN doesn't really want to change anything major about the series we probably won't see any resolution until he's decides to retire and write some sort of ending for the series.
The point being, there is possibility for change and people are willing, ZUN just doesn't write it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686261
>DiPP outright WAS retconned
Alice's last spellcard in PCB is Hanged Hourai Dolls. Two of Mokou's spellcard comments straight up reference the C62 DiPP story. Label girl sketch got shown at EoSD expo.
It got shifted to the side to avoid making Gensokyo look too grim right off the bat (pun intended) but saying it was retconned is oversimplifying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44772337
>ZUN just doesn't write it
And he won't. Last I remember, ZUN wanted to pass Touhou onto his kids which means he'll leave it open ended.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44772604
Can't wait for them to shit all over his legacy for quick cash.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44772337
>Yukari and Reimu also aren't adverse to change
Eh... It depends. There are certainly points in which they would quickly kill people if they cross certain lines (And I don't just mean mass violence of threatening people).

You are correct for the rest, though Kanako seems to mostly focus on introducing new inventions for Kappa and Tengu and not really caring about the human villagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44771831
>Well then it sounds like even if I gave you a dozen scenarios, it wouldn't matter.
And yet here >>44771910 someone who who clearly doesn't share your optimistic outlook manages to come up with at least something, even if it's not that likely to work. I just wanted you to elabrate further, beyond just making yourself hard to kill, but it seems that you'll continue to be vague about your ideas and avoid the question.
>As I mentioned, there's a solid handful of individuals that already are trying to improve things, if in relatively minor ways.
So far, only Eirin and Kasen have done any actual good. None of the things Kanako has done have reached the village, Byakuren's efforts are harmless at best.
>There's plenty of good still in the setting, but if you CHOOSE to only see the worst parts of it, then of course it's going to seem like a Zounose Doujin.
I didn't make that choice. The bad both overwieghts the good and makes what is left seem less genuine, like it's just there to distract you from Moe Epstein's Island (an exaggeration, yes, but I feel it's an apt one). At this point only ZUN not focusing directly on grim things and Zounose's own belief that Gensokyo isn't as grim as he depicts it keeps his work from being accidentally too close to canon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44775540
>Moe Epstein's Island
What? this is Gensokyo not rapesokyo, what are you talking about?
For Zounose, I think hes actually right in that assessment, unlike in his one works the human villagers aren't ritually sacrificed, Gensokyo isn't a ploy by heca, the Myuoren temple isn't using the corpses of children to grow their plants, and in general the Youkai aren't as blood thirsty, people forget this but the one time the kappa eating humans is brought up in WaHH Nitori basically says she'd prefer an alternative.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776384
>what are you talking about?
I mean, the term spiriting away does mostly refer to children going missing. While it's never said that children make up most of the outsiders that get abducted/eaten, it's also never said they are spared. Yukari also basically goes around calling herself "The one behind the spiriting away" which is basically akin to calling yourself "Miss Child abductor".

Granted, they only get eaten rather than "eaten". Since outside of some VERY vague implications in PMISS sexual violence is the one thing ZUN won't have in Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776658
>VERY vague implications in PMISS
Like? I seem to have missed that part.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776384
Zounose 100% makes Gensokyo way worse. Many canonically decent people, as well as the human village as whole, are shown as being significantly worse than they are in canon. Even things that do happen (Outsiders being fed to youkai) are done in a way that is very different.

I would say it's closer to a old fashioned troll fic that just takes itself serious enough to not be played for laughs. Most of the comedy in his doujins are 100% grimdark being played for laughs though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776708
>Most of the comedy in his doujins are 100% grimdark being played for laughs though.
I'm someone who got gut-busting laughs from Kafka, and I never found Zounose's works very funny. I always saw them as some kid's Shadow the Hedgehog fanfic than anything else, kinda pathetic but not something I'm going to get too heated over.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776658
Yukari is also the most prolific liar of the series, almost every time we see her, her character and lack of honesty are called into account, not to mention everybody who knows her personally, even Kasen who dislikes her quite a bit, says that whole persona is just an act and that she's actually pathetic.
So I generally don't believe a word that comes out of the gap hags mouth unless some other evidence backs it up, besides it just seems out of character from what we can verify or assume within reason about her, for her to target children specifically.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776811
>even Kasen who dislikes her quite a bit, says that whole persona is just an act and that she's actually pathetic.
Kasen certainly didn't react to her saying that Gensokyo get it's food from somewhere like Yukari was just bragging. If nothing else, it's pretty clear that she is responsible for a lot of outsider deaths even if a lot of her talk is just that. I find it pretty questionable to assume she would somehow have a policy of not harming children though granted if she really is Maribel you could make a decent case.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776737
I agree they aren't very funny, but it's obvious where the comedy is supposed to come from.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776836
I'm just operating under the assumption she'd need a reason to attack a child specifically, I don't really see why attacking children would be a default position of hers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776892
Default? No. But I imagine she wouldn't think twice about abducting runaways, orphans, or any other easily missed children.

I can't see Yukari going full Pennywise and trying to lure children away to eat/send to Gensokyo. She literally isn't charming enough to actually pull that off. Any child with even half a brain would just make fun of her and walk off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44776946
What i'm saying is that hurting children in the first place is a taboo, or something people generally prefer not to do under any circumstances.
So she'd need a specific reason to hurt children especially since range isn't an issue so she essentially has an endless supply of adult victims, going after a child would have to be a conscience choice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44777996
>What i'm saying is that hurting children in the first place is a taboo, or something people generally prefer not to do under any circumstances.
That applies to people, not Youkai. Humans don't think twice about eating veal or lam.

>So she'd need a specific reason to hurt children especially since range
Maybe they taste better?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44778025
So what if she's a Youkai? Nitori is a human eating Youkai and she clearly doesn't like it, wanting a less cannibalistic alternative.
Furthermore it's been all but stated that her Youkai act is just that, an act, not to mention all of the connections between her and Maribel which at minimum imply she was once a human who became a Youkai, so she would have human morals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44778078
>Nitori is a human eating Youkai and she clearly doesn't like it
She just doesn't want to eat stuff she has to pull from a asshole.

>Furthermore it's been all but stated that her Youkai act is just that, an act,
It's hard to say how much talk she is. Again, she is a mass murderer no matter how much she likes to puff up her chest. Though, again, I do agree that if she is Maribel it seems unlikely she would go that far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44686915
I tried looking for my original source and I think it might be the first question listed here:
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN's_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_1

[Anonymous No.]

>>44775540
I made it abundantly clear that my intention was not to avoid the question, but to not bother wasting time explaining the ideal solution given canon information to someone who by all accounts was just going to plug his ears, but I'll humor your blatantly disingenuous bait.
First and foremost, it should go without saying, but the biggest and most pressing issue if we are to consider a relatively peaceful society with both humans and nonhumans coexisting to be the ideal is the unhealthy power dynamic between both sides. Youkai are generally dangerous enough to kill the average human, even if not necessarily purely due to physical strength, and human belief can easily lead to the creation and extinction of entire species of nonhumans, meaning both sides have a massive amount of leverage over the other. Given how the Mental Layer is explained in CoLA, it can be assumed that all of this works sort of like levers, with the Layer a being exists on being like a fulcrum. Humans, who exist on the Physical Layer, can easily influence the Mental Layer, and vice-versa for nonhumans. It is worth noting, however, that multiple established methods exist for humans to become nonhumans, but the important one here is youkai magicians. Although we're never told the exact method, given how magic works, especially with Patchouli likening it to science in its own way, it can be inferred that the method or methods to become a youkai magician is a codified thing, whether it's a spell or a formula or a ritual, it is something that would, in-setting, have clear rules in how it shifts one's existence onto the Mental Layer.
Were someone to take that and reverse-engineer it to understand how and why it does so, it is not unreasonable to think a reverse magician formula could be developed to shift things from the Mental Layer to the Physical Layer. From there, the biggest hurdle would be getting such a thing to operate on a scale that affects all the Otherworlds in addition to Gensokyo. That said, considering the strongest character in the series is stated to have an unwavering distaste for authoritarians, it should be entirely possible to get Hecatia on board, which really would be the simplest answer to the problem of scale.
Obviously, it would be a long-shot, same as someone in the real world trying to fundamentally change things in a way that improves the lives of everyone, but it's less that it's impossible and more that ZUN would never write something that changes the status quo that much, and speaking of ZUN writing;
>None of the things Kanako has done have reached the village, Byakuren's efforts are harmless at best.
I think this is the biggest issue in our differences in thought, I'm operating under the assumption that Gensokyo, as a setting, would not be limited by the trappings of ZUN's status quo worship and shitty political allegories, and that's before getting into the matter that certain developments (like the ice cream we see in FDS) could very well be the result of new tech being introduced to the human villagers.
>>44778078
Honestly it's better to ignore the Maribel connection, as Maribel, with Yukari's powers, would actually be a worse person than Canon Yukari. Yukari's desire for friendship and positive attention at least gives her a motive to be decent to people, even if her chuuni nonsense gets in the way. Maribel just doesn't give a shit at all, as we see in Changeability of Strange Dream, where she goes all in on subjectivism and disregards objectivity completely. When a similar line is spouted by Akyuu near the end of FS, Kosuzu rightly points out that such a mentality can be used to justify anything. If you've ever had to deal with American college students, you probably have a good idea of exactly how much worse Maribel would be in the same situation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44779108
I don't really think so, I think it provides more context for her actions, and that it's telling that both Renko and Kosuzu call out that mentality.
It's not really even a system of morals even, it's just a way to excuse one's actions. Which of course Yukari has taken actions she herself disagrees with or would think is immoral, thus needing an excuse, she not only lies to other, but lies to herself.
Which I think is the more interesting story and makes the most sense with what we know of her pathetic character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44779108
So, your best case scenario is making youkai more physical, so that they wouldn't need to rely on humans to exist. Alright, this is good, but not without issues. Not even talking about the difficulty of execution, that this would require immense ammount of research from the best of the best in magical sciences, maybe even help from several pantheons, but let's assume we succeed in switching one's existance from Mental to Physical Layer.
Firstly, what sort of effects would this have on a mental creature? If we compare it to youkai magicians, then the creature would gain something major from being on the new layer, while losing capability from their previous layer. What would this change entail? Does this mean that youkai lose some of their strength/magic but gain the same power humans have to manipulate the Mental Layer? Would they even agree to such exchange? Would the Sages allow this? What if youkai alien minds produce abominations that are even worse than themselves?
Secondly, if all works out, and all youkai become physical, what stops them from just killing the villagers now that they're no longer needed?
I hope we can continue this discussion, sorry for being rude.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44779399
>Firstly, what sort of effects would this have on a mental creature? If we compare it to youkai magicians, then the creature would gain something major from being on the new layer, while losing capability from their previous layer. What would this change entail?
Most likely freedom, especially in cases like Amanojaku, some youkai and nonhumans are restrained by their natures, they literally cannot grow and change as people. We see some that are able to change their natures, such as Kasen helping one to stop eating humans, but that's expressed as being very much an outlier and not a normal possibility.
>Does this mean that youkai lose some of their strength/magic but gain the same power humans have to manipulate the Mental Layer?
Youkai can already provide faith for Kami, so one would assume as much. Without the Mental Layer as a fulcrum of sorts, however, one would assume they would be much weaker on average, and they'd have to factor in the fact that they wouldn't be able to easily regenerate from serious injuries or even physical death.
>Would they even agree to such exchange? Would the Sages allow this?
Depends. For the nonhumans that truly do want to live in peace with humanity, they probably wouldn't have any issues. For those that are particularly attached to their power, they would obviously be less inclined. Fortunately, the vast majority of the cast doesn't reach the point of outright tyranny. As for the Sages, Okina typically takes a hands-off approach, Kasen would be likely to agree due to the number of people it would help, and learning to create a Senkai as somewhere to test the larger scale shift would be useful. Yukari is a wildcard but if you could convince her it would make her better liked, or in general just were a friend to her, it's fair to assume she could be talked into going along with it, if not outright helping.
> What if youkai alien minds produce abominations that are even worse than themselves? Secondly, if all works out, and all youkai become physical, what stops them from just killing the villagers now that they're no longer needed?
Same thing that works in the real world, even if I find it distasteful: Implied threat of force. Plenty of individuals would work against such a massacre if it were attempted, and when all is equalized and being horrible and attacking people carries the risk of real death, people tend to avoid doing so unless they think they can get away with it, and with Gensokyo being a police state, that's a lot harder if that Fulcrum Shift is the only initial change. Even if they somehow do kill all the villagers, which I acknowledge as a possibility, if an unlikely one, the types to do that would likely just end up killing each other after the fact, making the whole point moot.
>Alright, this is good, but not without issues. [...]
Given that Byakuren is a Youkai Magician, I think it's likely that there exist multiple formulae to do so, which is actually a really good thing as it would mean more info to understand the underlying mechanisms of it. Like I said earlier, easily a massive ordeal, but far from unthinkable given canon info.
>I hope we can continue this discussion, sorry for being rude.
No sweat, seeing that you're actually open to entertaining the idea is more than enough, though we do only have until this thread gets bumped off the board for the time being to discuss it here lol.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44731823
You do go through hell in WBaWC (stage 4 is in actual current hell) because you have to go through Hell to get to the animal realm but the human spirits are in the Animal Realm.
Yachie guides the protag there in stage 4 and you're in the animal realm from stage 5 onwards, where the human spirits residing within turned into a megapolis because of Keiki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44779717
>>44779717
>Without the Mental Layer as a fulcrum of sorts, however, one would assume they would be much weaker on average, and they'd have to factor in the fact that they wouldn't be able to easily regenerate from serious injuries or even physical death.
I find it funny that some of the physical youkai would become a bit closer to their mythological counterparts by becoming easier to kill. After all, in the story of Urikohime the amanojaku was killed by peasants with sticks, and there were some kappa autopsy reports in Edo period.
>For those that are particularly attached to their power, they would obviously be less inclined
Yeah, it's hard to imagine the tengu or the Scarlet sisters agreeing to this. I also think some of those who are weaker, but still proud of being youkai, like Mystia, would not agree. The hardest one to convince would probably be Yukari, at least if her enjoying her lifestyle is less of a facade than we think. Though if what others tell about her is true, she might just be the first one to support this idea.
>we do only have until this thread gets bumped off the board for the time being to discuss it here lol
I was thinking of making another thread after this one died. I wanted to make it about a thing I thought of - basically, when there's a doujin or a fanfic that mostly focuses on slice of life and general "cuteness" in Gensokyo, it's almost never done in a real setting, not even AU. Even when it's clear that it's rather different from canon, these differences are almost never elaborated on. Like, here's a hypothetical - a doujin about Rumia or whatever opening a cafe in Human Village, even now I believe someone could write something like this. Why is she allowed this? Why are there undisguised youkai in here, including Rumia herself? Why are villagers alright with this? What's the tax rate? The author will never tell us, because the point is "Roomba a cute", not worldbuilding. The only fanworks I've seen that went into this (without becoming ridiculous like Gensoukoumuten) were Mystia's Izakaya and some CYOA's on Touhou-Project.com about trade post Amaden, so I got curious about why isn't there more of this kind of Touhou-based worldbuilding, even though the majority of the fandom seems to prefer lighter depictions.
Not sure if we could discuss your idea there though, so I dunno.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44780166
>Yeah, it's hard to imagine the tengu or the Scarlet sisters agreeing to this.
If anything, I'd imagine the Tengu would be best at adapting to the change, since they already have humanlike hierarchies, even if they're plagued by little caste mobility. The Scarlet Sisters I'm not sure on, honestly the Former Hell Youkai would be the ones I'd expect to be most opposed to the change, but they're typically shunned even among Gensokyo, which I would consider the strongest point against the grim mindset.
>[...] Touhou-based worldbuilding [...]
Could be an interesting thread to make. Even with more recent stuff, lines like Yukari and Kasen's dialogue about "the end goal of youkai" still leaves room for interpretation, even if the setting as a whole is darker with more recent material. I certainly wouldn't mind discussing more ideas of answers to the setting's problems given established lore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44779108
I actually kind of like the idea of Maribel and Yukari being the same person because Maribel is indeed very much a person who believes in subjectvism above all. It would very much explained her darth vader journey from the girl we see in the stories. Presumably with her eventually growing rather sad and lonesome as nobody actually respects her no matter how many people she feeds to Youkai.

>If you've ever had to deal with American college students, you probably have a good idea of exactly how much worse Maribel would be in the same situation.
Isn't that literally what she does? If Yukari is mostly just talk, then I could see her using that same college student subjectivism to justify throwing outsiders into methaporical lion cages. With her whole chuuni act mostly developing from the fact it doesn't actually earn her respect since most other youkai are still ruthless monsters with no shrewd of morality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44787346
Isn't one of Aya's problems with Youkai of the modern era is that they aren't ruthless monsters without a shred of morality?
Like yeah, they're Youkai, but they don't seem very dedicated to their Youkainess, even Rumia doesn't go out of her way to harm humans. Although Mystia does from what we know do that, whenever she's not either at work, relaxing, or holding a concert.