What is the deal with Tsukihime? If Nasu is such a bad writer, why is it so popular?

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Anonymous Mon Feb 8 12:55:55 2010 No.4329313 [Reply] [Original]

What is the deal with Tsukihime? If Nasu is such a bad writer, why is it so popular?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 12:56:55 2010 No.4329316 That's a conspiracy propagated by the mollusks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 12:57:55 2010 No.4329324 I love Kohaku.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 12:58:55 2010 No.4329329 File: 74 KB, 550x450, 1157064.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Because even if Nasu is a bad writer, he's a godly stagesetter. Guy who sees the inevitable end of things, fights Vampires? Come on, that's cool.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 12:58:55 2010 No.4329330 Good ideas, bad prose, a few really awesome scenes, adequate final product.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 12:59:55 2010 No.4329336 >>4329313 You could ask the same about R07.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 12:59:55 2010 No.4329343 >>4329336 >You could ask the same about any writer. My opinion > yours, after all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:00:55 2010 No.4329350 >>4329343 Any writer? Not really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:01:55 2010 No.4329360 http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=224974

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:01:55 2010 No.4329361 I wouldn't evaluate Nasu's prose based on Taka Jun's translations.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:02:55 2010 No.4329368 >>4329330 >Good ideas Yup. >bad prose I'd call it amateurish. >a few really awesome scenes Yeah. >adequate final product. Yes. Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 13:02:55 2010 No.4329372 >>4329350 Any writer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:03:55 2010 No.4329380 >>4329361

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:04:55 2010 No.4329383

>>4329361
Even Japanese agree that his writing is bad.

Anyway, while that is true, Nasu has some great concepts and ideas for the story. This was clearer in Fate than it was in Tsukihime, there are lots of great things in story but other than that it's pretty lame.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 13:05:55 2010 No.4329391 >>4329383 I'm one of the few that thought Tsukihime was better than Fate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:24:55 2010 No.4329495 >>4329391 It's good for different things, Tsukihime is a bit more serious than Fate and is a bit darker

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:28:55 2010 No.4329523

It's interesting to ask how much Type Moon's popularity has derived from Nasu's writing as opposed to Takeuchi's character design.

Similarly, Takeuchi is a pretty crap artist, as we see as soon as he tries to draw an animal or... anatomy, but none of that matters really if his designs have a certain intoxicating charm. People have pointed out that his designs all resemble each-other, but I think that's the point, the Takeuchi style levels everything, offers a cohesive language for describing characters in set, rigid parameters, and Nasu's writing does similar thing with the Nasuverse; offering statistical or categorical evaluations of their power for instance. The precision this system allows a distinct authenticity that I think you might lose in a flashier, more stylized (and incidentally derivative) Nitro+ work, even if that company is able to create more compelling visuals with fewer corny moments. It's also worth noting that Nasu loves corny moments, and his ready exploitation of them I think helps keep him from drowning in his perhaps less intended ones.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:31:55 2010 No.4329537
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About Takeuchi, a similar Touhou artist I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't have especially sharp drawing skills but nonetheless has a "style" that allows for compelling characters, and a solid enough setting to make spin-off stories that don't feel "Doujin" would be Haniwa, for similar reasons I think.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 13:32:55 2010 No.4329541 >>4329523 The thing about the character design is that it's not bad at all, it's just the actual drawings which suffer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:34:55 2010 No.4329547 File: 56 KB, 436x378, cusrive_sample.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4329523 >Takeuchi style levels everything, offers a cohesive language for describing characters in set, rigid parameters, Kinda like... ancient egyptian artists?

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:42:55 2010 No.4329583

>>4329547

Yeah, actually. Or medieval illustration. In those days people only copied other art, so there was only one way to draw trees or people for instance. Since that was the only representative visual language, their drawings had an authenticity we can only reserve for photography today.
I think all artists working in 2D do this, that's how the 2D world works. But I wonder if artists like Takeuchi aren't popular because thy can bring it down to another level without crushing it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:46:55 2010 No.4329605 Because type-moon fans don't care to play other vns.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:46:55 2010 No.4329606 >>4329583 Why are you comparing photography to highly conventionalised art styles? Aren't they pretty much the opposite of each other?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:48:55 2010 No.4329615 >>4329360 >Pink, bold text >Insulting random stuff for little to no reason The very definition of an attention whore. Thanks for the link Anon, I had a good laugh.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:51:55 2010 No.4329636 While Nasu is not a very good writer, he is a damn good storyteller. If you think there is no difference, you should just leave the thread right now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:54:55 2010 No.4329652 >>4329615 you're welcome.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:55:55 2010 No.4329660
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I don't think Takeuchi's characters become popular because they're more 'basic' or modular than other characters, it's because they have an original flavor. They're the result of someone who 'doesn't know how to draw', so they have a kind of clunky doujin-feel to them which seems fresh, and so they're not built like generic moe characters.
There's something about the eyes which is unusual.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:57:55 2010 No.4329669

Adding to the thread, one should consider the medium.
He is not really bad considering the VN medium (definitely above average), and as others pointed out, he sets a nice setting that does not feel limited and convenient for just the single story you read.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 13:58:55 2010 No.4329680 >>4329660 Luvia's design is an example of him 'knowing wht to draw". She is a bunch of stereotypes sew together. And event then there are people who eat that shit!

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 14:03:55 2010 No.4329710 >>4329680 Nobody here is saying that Luvia is great.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:07:55 2010 No.4329734 >>4329680 Fate/unlimited codes was Cavia, though. I don't know how much Takeushi was involved in her design.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:08:55 2010 No.4329736

>>4329680
Well, considering most visual novel characters and plot lines are very "paint-by-numbers" in construction. When you have thousands of characters already made in hundreds of vns, what you want is one distinct look, then copy it with different colors and accessories.

Plotlines are very similar too. Most all boil down to 1) guy meets girl 2)guy spends time with girl, getting to know her 3) girl reveals problem, usually having to do with her past 4) guy fixes the girl's problem, romance and sex ensues.

A successful company like Key makes a beloved game like Kanon, and everyone rushes to follow their lead, to try to get in on their success.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:08:55 2010 No.4329737 >>4329734 What? Luvia first appeared in Hollow, not UC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:09:55 2010 No.4329742 >>4329734 >Implying Luvia's first appearance was Unlimited Codes

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:12:55 2010 No.4329756

>>4329636
>While Nasu is not a very good writer, he is a damn good storyteller.

His stories have potential, but he resorts to cheap animu style tricks that make all his works pretty much Twilights for males. But then again, he writes Visual Novels so it would be more fair to compare him to Nora Roberts, for example, than to real writers.

His works often havea good atmosphere though.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:13:55 2010 No.4329761

Why don't we be more specific about Nasu's writing.

Does he provide adequate justification for the actions of the characters? Does he develop and expand upon a distinct theme? Do the conclusions of each arc fit into that theme? Does his writing create a distinct atmosphere?

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:13:55 2010 No.4329763
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because being above average or even great in vn land isn't hard. When most are either 1) rape fests or 2) moe pandering, with one note character personalities and designs that are just the same face repeated with different hair and eye colors.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:19:55 2010 No.4329797

>>4329756

I think Nasu succeeds because he takes the worn used Animu tropes, and manages to put a unique spin on them.

I think the difference in our thinking is, I am comparing his work with Anime, video games, and graphic novels, because I think those multimedia mediums fit in the best with vns and make for a proper comparison. Comparing his writing with other prose authors, who write prose novels, a monomedia medium, is comparing apples to oranges. Because visual novels can lean on the art, the music, voice acting, sound effects, etc. the writing is obviously not going to be as rich, because it doesn't need to.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:20:55 2010 No.4329802

>>4329761
It really depends. The main characters (Shiki, Shirou) are really fleshed out, because we can see how the change from beginning to end. With the other characters, they are really only real people rather than just stock or side characters in their respective routes.

Some of the servants seem realistic and interesting (Archer, Lancer in UBW) but others are lacking (Caster, Fake Assassin).

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:21:55 2010 No.4329807 >>4329756 What does Twilight for males even mean?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:23:55 2010 No.4329816 >>4329761 Mollusks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:25:55 2010 No.4329830 >>4329313 because ciel

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:28:55 2010 No.4329845 I guess I'm the only one who rather likes Nasu's unique writing style. At least, I thought it was one of the best parts of Fate it was a little much in Tsuki, but I loved the writing in KT. But I guess that's just a stylistic thing.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:28:55 2010 No.4329847

>>4329797
>Comparing his writing with other prose authors, who write prose novels, a monomedia medium, is comparing apples to oranges.

You're right, I agree.

>>4329807
>What does Twilight for males even mean?

Twilight is that vampire romance book/movie shit that seems to be really popular right now. It's target audience is mainly women.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:31:55 2010 No.4329866

>>4329847
I know what twilight means, but what does twilight for males entail?
Stock romance writing for males? Tsukihime is nothing alike usual romance stories.
Vampire/human relationships? Done before, and not even the main tsukihime focus, going just by the routes.
Are the roles of the characters just reversed? I doubt it.
So, what does it mean?

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 14:33:55 2010 No.4329876

>>4329756
>His stories have potential, but he resorts to cheap animu style tricks that make all his works pretty much Twilights for males.
>Invoking Twilight for a visual novel made 5 years before Twilight was ever published

It's like I'm really on /jp/!

>>4329802
The weird part is that there aren't really any side characters in Tsukihime. Even Sacchin gets characterization. She's not just completely a plot device. SHIKI isn't the primary antagonist, but you still find out a lot about him through various means. Nero is pretty much the one guy that gets little time, but you still find out quite a bit about him: his pride, his life outlook, how he is defines the way vampires regard each other.

The best part about Fate is that the villains get massive exposition time. Kotomine and Gil both get their time to shine, and Kotomine gets the most non-antagonistic dialogue out of all the "villains" of Fate. He gets almost as much as Illya does, for the impact it brings.

The one bad spot for Fate is (surprise, surprise) Sakura, who has her time to shine, but ends up being told off by her sister in her "ultimate evil" speech. Good job.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:33:55 2010 No.4329877 >>4329866 It means a popular, long-winded work focused on human interest that happens to include vampires.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:35:55 2010 No.4329884 >>4329877 So how is the male version different from the female one?

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:36:55 2010 No.4329890

>>4329866
I think it means hitting all the buttons deep down in the male psyche that cause males to insert themselves into the story and fall in love themselves?

Anyway, one other thing I read previously that I thought was interesting was a KS writer blog article, where he said that the closest comparison for writing a visual novel was writing a stage play. You have description in the beginning to set the scene, then the dialogue happens, and, with the exception of some more brief description of action and whatnot, its mostly dialogue. The acting can carry a lot of the characterization. Same thing with character sprites and voice acting in a vn.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:37:55 2010 No.4329894 >The weird part is that there aren't really any side characters in Tsukihime. Arihiko would like to have a word with you.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:37:55 2010 No.4329896

What I hate about Nasu's writing is that he is far too pedantic.
He basically caters to the lowest common denominator, he has to repeat every facts thousand times and every development or instant of characterizations have to be bashed into the skull of the readers.

Personally I don't like being taken as an idiot, which is why I dislike his writing.
Also if he could use more variety in the words he use, the prose feel far too bland most of the time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:38:55 2010 No.4329898 >>4329877 >It means a popular, long-winded work focused on human interest oh, ok. that's not a stupid definition.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:39:55 2010 No.4329903

>>4329890
That's almost the purpose of every VN, excluding the few that do not stick in a certain viewpoint and try to switch narrative views to present the story. The medium by default establishes it.
Not love for themselves, but definitely better character immersion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:39:55 2010 No.4329905 type moon is great at conceptualizing in general but is pretty poor at putting it into actual use. Can't have everything.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 14:40:55 2010 No.4329906 >>4329894 I suppose you sort of have a point. Even as far as side characters go, Arihiko is pretty good. Gets tons of time in Kagetsu Tohya, which makes up for him being sidelined in Tsukihime.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:40:55 2010 No.4329907 >>4329898 Shut up, fag. I'll bet that you like the Great Gatsby (or as I like to call it, "Twilight 2.0"), as well. And don't even get me started on "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn". Biggest Twilight rip-off ever.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:40:55 2010 No.4329910 >>4329896 I do agree with you, but seeing how many people still do not get obvious shit he repeats, I am afraid it's almost necessary. If he cut down the over exposition at times, the narration would definitely improve.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:41:55 2010 No.4329913

>>4329876
Another thing I find interesting is how certain feelings can carry across routes. When you get to Heaven's Feel, you have seen Rider, Sakura, and Illya ignored, stomped on, abused and forgotten for 40 hours, and so naturally, you want them to succeed, and you want them to have a good ending, before you even meet them in their own route, because of what happened previously. Similarly, because you have spent 40 hours with saber, you feel bad when you lose her, even though from the perspective of HF shirou, you know nothing about her.

Same thing with the rules of the universe, arcuieds route in tsukihime sets up a lot of stuff about the Way Things Work via infodump, which means the far side routes can get a lot more personal without having to explain the setting all over again, its assumed the readers are familiar with it already, and it carries over rather well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:42:55 2010 No.4329919 File: 99 KB, 400x400, 1261935537218.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4329830 >Implying Ciel is not the least popular Tsukihime heroine

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:42:55 2010 No.4329920

>>4329866
>Tsukihime is nothing alike usual romance stories.

Haha, oh wow. You should read more shitty romance stories. Actually, don't. I'm telling this as your friend - don't. Just believe my word, if you would reverse genders in your generic romance novel with a supernatural twist, you would get something quite like Tsukihime. Of course, Nasus works have lots of redeeming qualities that make them readable and even good. He makes up interesting concepts and knows how to create atmosphere.

>>4329876
>Tripfag implying that Tsukihime was implied to be a copy of Twilight, which of course is not what was implied.

Calm down now fanboys.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:43:55 2010 No.4329922

A more extreme example of Type-Moon would be the Index series that is popular right now.
You have all these threads in /a/ about ZOMG THIS CHARACTER IS SO COOL BEST POWER EVER, but the shows themselves are shits.

In the end people really don't care about the story in itself, they just care about the expanding universe.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:45:55 2010 No.4329931

>>4329920
I am not saying Tsukihime is a GOOD romance story, I am saying that shit or not, it's still different.
Mostly because the romance is never the sole focus and the sole thing contributing to the characters growth and concern.
I have read shitty stock romance novels, and the similarities are more superficial then you suggest.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:47:55 2010 No.4329936

I think Nasu character writing in Tsukihime and Fate is comparable with Ken Akamatsu writing in Negima. Even with such a large cast, almost everyone is fitted into the narrative and developed in a way that feels natural. When someone is neglected, it feels very out of place and weird.

Fortunately, with visual novels, you can write side stories that flesh out underdeveloped characters. I still cannot wait for Rider's backstory in HA.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 14:47:55 2010 No.4329937 >>4329920 see >>4329907 Invoking Twilight in a thread involving literary criticism (of anything, not even Tsukihime) is just a flag to show that you're a troll.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:48:55 2010 No.4329941 Tsukihime is Kizuato's copy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:48:55 2010 No.4329942 I kind of liked the music in Tsukihime, but I'm not sure how tightly bound the music is in this case since I had to download it separately.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:50:55 2010 No.4329948 >>4329941 Describe me Kizuato's story then.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:50:55 2010 No.4329951

>>4329931
>I have read shitty stock romance novels, and the similarities are more superficial then you suggest.

Have you read Morrigans Cross ( or something like that ) by Nora Roberts? It had vampires, wizards, druids and even time travel. It was horrible, I couldn't read more than 1/3 of it, but if genders would be reversed and it would be published as VN, threads about it would cover half of /jp/'s front page.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:52:55 2010 No.4329956

>>4329763
>When most are either
>2) moe pandering,

Why do people use the word "pander" like it's something bad? I like being pandered to. I like it when the writer gives me exactly what I wanted instead of acting as if he knows better than me what I should like.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:52:55 2010 No.4329959 >>4329948 Same setting, Onis instead of Vampires. Protagonist thinks he might be behind the murders going on around town.

MolesterJim Mon Feb 8 14:53:55 2010 No.4329965

>>4329951
Allow me to interject
I doubt /jp/ would like it.
It's convoluted and the jump between events is too fucking nonsensical. And the writing is just...
It's like saying that we would like Malko Linge's adventures because we enjoyed Phantom of Inferno or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:54:55 2010 No.4329972 >>4329959 That does not describe anything. I asked for the story, not a clue about the setting and one of the lead's worries.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:55:55 2010 No.4329973 >>4329951 Not the guy, but kinda liked Morrigan's cross, but it was too much for women still the plot was a bit convulted and the writing sucked

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 14:56:55 2010 No.4329979

>>4329922
>A more extreme example of Type-Moon would be the Index series that is popular right now.

I was going to reply with a serious post, but "Is that so~" seems more appropriate for such a shallow comment.

>You have all these threads in /a/ about ZOMG THIS CHARACTER IS SO COOL BEST POWER EVER, but the shows themselves are shits.

The difference here is that every character from Tsukihime and Fate is likable in some way. Except maybe Sakura, but there are people that like her. Also, you're full of shit on:

>In the end people really don't care about the story in itself, they just care about the expanding universe.

We have discussions quite often about the stories. Whether or not Shirou's ideals were worth anything, who had the worst problems in Tsukihime, what various scenes meant, etc. Just because we've talked most of it to death doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:56:55 2010 No.4329984 >>4329972 Being translated and I don't like to spoil things. Suffice it is to say that Nasu didn't really make anything new. Except for mollusc sex.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:58:55 2010 No.4329999 >>4329984 Put a spoiler tag. Not to forget that what you mentioned is not even considered in 3 out of 5 routes.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 14:59:55 2010 No.4330007

>>4329965
>It's convoluted and the jump between events is too fucking nonsensical. And the writing is just...

Holy shit, have you read it? I remember that the vampires were some sort of retarded zombie monkeys that instead of using weapons or actually fighting tried to just bite people. And how did their fangs always "gleam" in the dark?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:01:55 2010 No.4330018 >>4330007 fluorescent saliva, moonlight.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:05:55 2010 No.4330045

>>4329913
>Another thing I find interesting is how certain feelings can carry across routes. When you get to Heaven's Feel, you have seen Rider, Sakura, and Illya ignored, stomped on, abused and forgotten for 40 hours, and so naturally, you want them to succeed
>Illya
>Rider

the fuck
illya was a completely evil insane little sadist and the only possible reason to not want to kill her is if you are a pedophile and think she's got a sex scene coming
and rider was a pure monsterwhore insane with bloodlust until the last 20% of the last route, there was nothing remotely liable about her other than her looks before that

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:08:55 2010 No.4330064 >>4330045 Illya just had a hard life. ;_;

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:10:55 2010 No.4330077

>Some of the servants seem realistic and interesting (Archer, Lancer in UBW) but others are lacking (Caster, Fake Assassin).

How shocking, Nasu spends more time writing about characters he likes (He has bad taste) , and less on characters that could use extra development during the story

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:12:55 2010 No.4330086 >>4329931 >Mostly because the romance is never the sole focus and the sole thing contributing to the characters growth and concern. That would be more convincing if there would actually be a (non-gay) Arihiko route, for example.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:12:55 2010 No.4330088 >>4330077 I think it has to do with involvement in the story, not just taste.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 15:15:55 2010 No.4330107

>>4330045
Sometimes, I don't think you people ever read the story. Illya has really good reasons for being how she is. Rider was royally fucked over in her own life for no good reason. Illya doesn't involve innocent people and is fighting as a mage in the war, which means she isn't going to show any mercy. Rider is forced to involve innocent people because of Lord High Asshole Shinji. For the most part, Illya and Rider direct their aggression at Shirou.

He doesn't die when he's killed, so it's okay.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:23:55 2010 No.4330150

>>4329979
The characters of FSN/Tsukihime aren't any more likable than the other characters from you average anime/VN.

The stories of these games in itself is nothing great either, at most Shirou's characterization was pretty interesting but it's nothing really unusual.

Most people only care about the expanding universe, that's why they love it.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 15:24:55 2010 No.4330157 >>4330150 Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:28:55 2010 No.4330184 If Nasu would write the remake of Tsukihime to be a bit more like a regular novel and less like animu, making it comparable with real books, would he alienate fans?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:30:55 2010 No.4330202 The thing is, we're getting lots of great visual novels translated. There's TONS of crap released in Japan which is why Tsukihime and FSN managed to stand out so clearly.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:31:55 2010 No.4330210 >>4330184 This christmas will be Tsukihime's 10th anniversary, let's see what he decides to do with the remake!

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:32:55 2010 No.4330216

>>4330184
What are the animu traits?
I think you confuse part of the VN medium with animu.
He just needs to cut down on the overexposition a bit and learn to use better varied vocabulary.
Story setting and characters are mostly fine.

And there is no point comparing it to a book.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:40:55 2010 No.4330280

>>4330202
Tsukihime managed to stand out in Japan because the entire doujin scene decided to band together to hype it to hell.

FSN basically was hyped for 2 years in a marketing campaign that no eroge saw before (or after).
That's also the main reason why Nasu had to remove Ilya's route, FSN was getting far too much attention thank to that campaign.

Japaneses more than anything are easily influenced, the better the marketing is, the bigger the sales will be.
That's why the shits from companies like August manage to sell that well, or why every iteration of Shuffle sell a tons.

Rather than a good writer, Nasu is a marketing genius.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:42:55 2010 No.4330300

The plot of Tsukihime is this: schizophrenic milquetoast-nerd-by-day/homicidal-rapist-by-night Shiki Tohno meets hot vampire Arcade Bumstead and learns entirely too much about vampires while having (the option of, at least) sex with said sweater-wearing vampire, his foster sister(they're not blood-related but that's still creepy as fuck), his childhood-friend-turned-maid, and God knows what else. There's more to it than that, but not much more.

It's porn with plot (or rather, a pitiful plot with porn attached, which is even worse) beyond the fortuitous arrival of a pizza boy, a pool cleaner, or a well-endowed black man. (Nero doesn't count, because he doesn't get laid, another large shortcoming of Tsukihime.) It is a recipe for failure, propped up by people who watch too much anime and are thus led into the delusion that Nasu is clever and/or capable as a writer, when really what he has is a mediocre anime script, animated by still screens with godawful narration superimposed.

And to top it off, it has vampires. VAMPIRES. Vampires have been garbage ever since Dracula. Even before Twilight, Anne Rice turned vampires irredeemably stupid. Aside from Castlevania and Melty Blood, NOTHING good comes from vampires these days.

It really is a miracle Melty Blood turned out as good as it did with this pedigree.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:43:55 2010 No.4330314 >>4330300 Did you just type this, or is it a copypasta?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:47:55 2010 No.4330345 I love how the complaints from some people throughout this thread can basically be summed up as, "It's popular so I hate it."

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:47:55 2010 No.4330346 >>4330314 copypasta through-and-through

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:47:55 2010 No.4330350 >>4330314 Original copy pasta, do not steal. http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=224974&p=8346101&viewfull=1#post8346101

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 15:52:55 2010 No.4330378

Another thing to keep in mind is: visual novels have only been around for about 12 years. To Heart and Kanon made them popular in '98 and '99. Fiction novels have been around for centuries to develop and mature as an art form. Visual novels don't have that luxury. Of course the stories are simple and cliche, its a young medium, give it time.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 16:13:55 2010 No.4330501 >>4330378 Rather, most fiction is cliche and amateurish. Even older works of fiction which a lot of people call CLASSICS seem this way to some people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:21:55 2010 No.4330560 >>4330501 If only we could go back to a time where not as many people could read. Books would become enjoyable again.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:22:55 2010 No.4330572 >>4330560 And the only one you would be allowed to read is teh Bible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:24:55 2010 No.4330581 >>4330378 The novel began with excellence at once (e.g. Don Quixote). Visual novels have been wallowing in shit from inception to present.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:25:55 2010 No.4330597 >>4330581 No, they did not. Thankfully, the ones we care about are as good as Don Quixote.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:27:55 2010 No.4330610

>>4330581
>The novel began with excellence at once (e.g. Don Quixote)

Don Quixote was a parody of more or less every novel about brave heroic knights ever done before. That's like bringing up "Shrek" when talking about the beginning of fairy tale movies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:29:55 2010 No.4330628 >>4329956 Simply put, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Get your damn treasure off my market, please.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:31:55 2010 No.4330648

>>4329979
You've shown twice in this post that your biggest draw is character screentime and character backstory. Nasu doesn't drop backstory in his active works, so anon's comment is utterly valid.

You really DO get your best joy out of the mountain of side detail acquired from Nasu's sourcebooks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:36:55 2010 No.4330697 I, for one think that DDD is the best work Nasu has written.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:37:55 2010 No.4330704 >>4329313 Because its works are generic shounenshit where the main character become a hero and fucks a lot of bisexual girl in the way. If Saber was Saver no one would have like Fate/Stay Kitchen

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 16:49:55 2010 No.4330801

>>4330648
The entire point of Tsukihime and F/SN are the characters, though. The "vampire loose in the city" and "the holy grail war" are the backdrops for the characters to interact. Sure, you have the "final boss", but even that is misleading. F/SN's final scenes are just ways for Shirou to affirm his convictions or deny them in favor of something he loves. The story isn't, in the end, about beating Gil, kicking Kotomine's ass, or beating Angry Manjew. It's about the events that occurred and how everyone is going to live as they're changed by them, and what kind of person Shirou is going to be.

Same with Tsukihime. Roa is just a way for Arc and Ciel to face who they are and move on. SHIKI makes you have to face Akiha's true nature, or the culmination of what you've learned about Hisui and Kohaku. Everything is just what you learn from interacting with the main cast. The backstory itself is almost entirely caught up in the character interactions of the Far Side path of Tsukihime. You can't advance without learning about and understanding the entire tragic story of the Tohno household, more so than Curry or Idiot make you understand about Elesia's past or Arcueid's fall from grace.

>>4330704
Are you kidding? It'd probably have been more popular, especially if the female main lead ended up aspiring to be a hero and having to face off against Saver over the whole ordeal. Male Saber, telling her to get back into the kitchen and let King Arthur slap some bitches around, then getting owned by her in a fight.

Male Saber getting raped would be schadenfreude at its finest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:50:55 2010 No.4330811 >>4330704 I do not remember many shonen series like that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:52:55 2010 No.4330832 File: 209 KB, 325x315, 1256136563679.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4330704 >Implying any of the Tsukihime girls is bisexual

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 16:53:55 2010 No.4330842 >>4330832 Akiha and Kohaku totally want each other.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 16:58:55 2010 No.4330876 >>4330832 Kohaku, anyone?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:00:55 2010 No.4330885 >>4330876 Akiha draining her blood and gag 'I LOVE HISUI' counts? Sure, why not.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:01:55 2010 No.4330891

>>4330832

Half of Fate cast is Bi

Rin is bi
Saber is not bi, but she had her vagina licked by Rin
Rin classmate is lesbian
Rider raped Rin classmate
Sakura would fuck everything
Caster was lesbiand or bi, and she tortured Saber with pleasure

So yes, for a reason or another almost any girl would fuck/rape another.
And almost any girl end up fucking Shirou (Rin, Saber, Sakura, Rider in a dream)

Of course, all the male "good" character are awesome people with long sword, just think of Archer or Lancer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:01:55 2010 No.4330893 File: 176 KB, 495x549, 1249914030339.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Aoko. She's -sexual for everything.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:02:55 2010 No.4330898 >>4330891 'Rin is bi' Only this stands.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:02:55 2010 No.4330899 >>4330891 >Tsukihime Who the hell cares about FSN, tard?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:03:55 2010 No.4330901 >>4330891 >Half of Fate cast is Bi This means guys as well, right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:03:55 2010 No.4330909 >>4330901 There are like.... only two important guys in fs/n

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:05:55 2010 No.4330915 >>4330901 Of course no, homosexuals are disgusting, all the guys are staight and they fuck the bisexual girls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:05:55 2010 No.4330922 File: 35 KB, 554x439, cant be help.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4330899 Fate is more popular than Tsukihime

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:07:55 2010 No.4330933 >>4330801 Too bad the character interactions in general fucking suck in FSN. Shirou has no chemistry with anyone and the dialogues suck as a whole. The only interesting interactions and "slice of life" found in FSN are in the doujins.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:11:55 2010 No.4330955
File: 243 KB, 800x600, medea.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4330898

Like i said, for a reason or another, every girl ended up having lesbian inuendos with another girl.

Just think of Caster torture, Saber is no lesbiand but she ended up having sex with Rin and Caster

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:14:55 2010 No.4330973 >>4330955 Your idea of sex is 'weird'. And you are reading too much on the rest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:15:55 2010 No.4330977 >>4330909 And they are all Shirou, right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 17:24:55 2010 No.4331036 File: 61 KB, 802x645, rindiewhenkilled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 18:24:55 2010 No.4331334

Pretty decent thread so far /jp/

On a continuing note, let's talk about how the seemingly widespread dissatisfaction with VNs as a medium for writing may be more influenced by factors others than the writing itself?

Take for example, when VN's are belittled in comparison to 'classic' western literature. There is a seeming truth in saying that few VN's have lived up to the same level of prose, metaphor, artistic language or what-not, but can it be said that any form of modern media does? After all, it's said there hasn't been a new plot since Shakespeare and the even the most prominent writers of today, Nelson Demille, James Patterson, Stephen King etc..., do not live up to the standards of 'classic' writing, which we seem to have idealized unto unattainable heights.
Many of the prominent writers in the medium, such as Nasu, Tanaka, R07, etc…, do have things to work on, but on many occasions they are not really as bad as our lofty standards sometimes make them seem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 18:24:55 2010 No.4331338 File: 86 KB, 497x604, rinarcherleave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4330933 Well, Archer and Rin's interactions were a lot of fun, and not enough of them. And Rin and Shirou were actually rather cute too.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 18:38:55 2010 No.4331408

>>4331334
God, it's only fucking trolls who say that ryu and nasu are "bad" writers. They are easily several tiers above the genre that they're working in, which might be most easily compared to fantasy, scifi, or young adult genre fiction. I don't know if /jp/ reads silly gaijin books aside from what they're assigned in Enlgish class, but these genres are full of absolutely terrible writing on average.

Holding them to the standards of great works of western literature is asinine, like comparing apples and oranges. I've read spectacular gnere fiction that was leagues better than VNs, but I still enjoy what the genre and its writers have to offer.

Seriously though, it's pure trolling to call them bad writers, especially when nobody has ever called them great.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 18:43:55 2010 No.4331429

>>4331408
This is why I dislike my local library, instead of having say, most of the works of acclaimed authors, or at least their most famous work, they'll have the complete works of generic shitty woman writer #2903546, and say 3 books by say Agatha Christie. What annoys me the most though, is that the "romance" section is has about 3 times more books than the general fiction sections.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 18:53:55 2010 No.4331473

I like Nasu's writing. He even manages to make lame shit like fighting and power levels reasonably entertaining to read about.

Also comparing VN scenario writers to book authors doesn't make sense. They're different mediums with different writing styles.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:04:55 2010 No.4331550 >>4330697 What? It's his worst shit since Canaan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:07:55 2010 No.4331569 File: 200 KB, 1000x1362, YoungEisenhorn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4331408 Fuck off newbie. Go read something good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:10:55 2010 No.4331588 File: 318 KB, 1600x1200, Williams_The-War-of-the-Flowers-728095.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4331408 Just because you read shit doesn't mean that western literature isn't bounds and leaps better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:13:55 2010 No.4331605 >>4331588 Now your opinion is invalidated.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:39:55 2010 No.4331725 >>4331569 >>4331588 Gotta love how these two jumped in and proved his point.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Feb 8 19:43:55 2010 No.4331741 >>4331725 Yeah, it is lovely in some respects.

>>	Angry Type-Moon Fan !SHIKIazrn2 Mon Feb 8 19:48:55 2010 No.4331761 I don't like how he uses random words to sound smart.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 8 19:50:55 2010 No.4331772 >>4331761 or random english/german thrown in from nowhere. BONE OF MY SWORD, etc.

Anonymous Mon Feb 8 20:05:55 2010 No.4331836

Incidentally, we're reading the Inferno by Alighieri in our English class, and really, I don't see why these "classics" are so respected and revered. I can see how the Inferno might be popular among the Italians back then, but I don't see how any of the themes Dante uses applies to the modern reader.

Half the time Dante's criticizing problems that have already been solved and people that have already died. Contemporary Italian readers might have understood the political commentary against the old Italian leaders, but modern readers don't know the names of every Guelph and Ghibelline leader, and frankly, don't care.

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/jp/ - Otaku Culture