Touhou Project : Lore Discussion

[Anonymous No.]

Here i will start with some points to start the discussion for the thread

>Ecofacist Genocide
>IaMP Beta
>Attack on Dwarf
>Lunarians Incest
>Touhou 5.5
>Lost fighting touhou game
>All Religions exist in Gensokyo
>Cristianity
>Who is "Kage"
>Who is the clown from Dipp

[Anonymous No.]

>>42461073
>Cristianity
Bless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42461073
I'll repost one of my theories for the start of this thread

Theory: Reimu has been manipulated by the youkai all her life (or at least ever since she became a shrine maiden) and her god is helpless to do anything about it, as it's kind of in the same boat.

Let's look at the facts: the Hakurei God isn't being worshipped and is angry as a result, as said in one of Reimu's UFO endings. Reimu doesn't know a single thing about her god, not even it's name or blessings, as stated in many works such as Oriental Sacred Place (in Chapter 17). The Hakurei God's blessing is youkai extermination, as stated by Kasen in Oriental Sacred Place (also Chapter 17), yet Reimu is very buddy-buddy with all kinds of powerful youkai (some like Suika even outright live on the shrine grounds), and Kasen says this is a reason why she "can't gather faith". To add on to this, Kasen did some sneaky shit to ensure Reimu didn't figure out the Yin-Yang Orb she uses is the Hakurei God's go-shintai. Then you got Yukari and one of the meanings of her name, "A strong fortress to keep the gods(shrine maidens) trapped inside", as discussed in Curiosities of Lotus Asia Chapter 22. Furthermore, as stated in MoF's prologue, the Hakurei God's power has "steadily diminished" due to a lack of faith. Now this is a little more assumptive, but presumably the Hakurei God also had a hand in Gensokyo's creation, after all the barrier is named after it and Hakurei shrine maidens have a number of powers relating to the barrier (like being able to send outsiders back home), plus PMiSS states that "The Hakurei shrine maidens manage the Great Hakurei Barrier."

Piecing all of this together, the Hakurei God was at one point more powerful and prominent than it is now, likely having assisted in the Great Hakurei Barrier's creation, and in a land teeming with youkai humans should have been clamoring for it's blessing of youkai extermination. This is obviously a bad thing for youkai and Gensokyo's balance in general, as the creation of Gensokyo was aided by the youkai so they could not only have a place to live but a place to thrive. By weakening the Hakurei God's influence and power, and keeping Reimu in the dark about it all, the youkai have deprived humans of one of the greatest weapons they have against them. Kasen's behavior in OSP heavily supports this. The Hakurei God has no faith, no worshipers, it's own shrine maiden doesn't even know it's name or how to worship it, and it's probably slowly dying of faith deprivation in a land where it should have no shortage of followers. The youkai probably won't ever let it die given how useful it's blessings and artifact have been for Reimu, but they'll always keep it too weak to fight back or even inform it's shrine maiden of it's situation, because a strong and influential Hakurei God is a threat to Gensokyo's current balance and the dominance of youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42462891
Some images of supporting evidence

[Anonymous No.]

>>42462900

[Anonymous No.]

>>42462911
A critique of this theory I've heard before is that if the Hakurei God was truly in such a state, why continue providing Reimu with powers? Why not just revoke everything and deem her a Hakurei shrine maiden no longer?

Consider pic rel and the implications of what Aya is saying here.
>"I suppose WE'LL have to find another shrine maiden before long..."
Is the Hakurei God not the one that chooses who the next Hakurei shrine maiden will be? Do the youkai do that instead? If the Hakurei God lacks the autonomy to even decide who it's shrine maiden should be, what makes you think it's able to revoke shrine maiden status whenever it feels like it?

[Anonymous No.]

Why lore threads are so dead? Not a long time ago where a great thread about lore

[Anonymous No.]

>>42462891
I was thinking about your theory and questioning even why the Hakurei God would have helped create the barrier if it was destined to become a youkai paradise, but then it dawned on me that the lack of faith in the existence of youkai in the outside world extends to gods. Still, Kasen does say she's on the side of humans to Yukari, so I would find it strange to think that nearly every powerful individual tries to keep the Hakurei God weak and even those who could help it (Moriyas, Rinnosuke) don't seem to do it and prefer to let Reimu find it out by herself, which is something that seems will never happen.
Then there is even all the question of what happened to Reimu's predecessors... She's stated to be an orfan, and both in HRtP and in EoSD she lives alone at the shrine. In HRtP she lives all alone and looks like she doesn't even know anyone at all, so it's a wonder how she's able to survive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42461073
>Christianity
Devils exist in touhou
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Devil

[Anonymous No.]

Zounose Doujins are canon

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466721
I heared about ZUN knows about tem, is true?

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466144
Lore threads are hit or miss but I just think it makes them comfy

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466593
As for why they keep him weak i think that's obvious, if he gained any real power you'd have the villagers that were supposedly once primarily youkai hunters become emboldened and powerful again as a side effect of getting real blessings which would be a headache for Yukari and a genuine threat to the balance she's cultivated.
Its more then likely they betrayed him in the early days, or even in the previous generation and as a side effect of this sealing Reimus parents were killed when she was too young to remember.
That said this all pure speculation, but something did happen to seal the god and steps were clearly taken to strangle him of faith

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466144
/jp/ no longer wants to talk about lore
all the anons that liked lore threads died in the absence of them and now only waifuposters that hate canon remain. you shouldnt have listened to that guy last thread claiming that there was too many lore threads and we needed to migrate to /vg/... alas, its too late now

[Anonymous No.]

>>42467289
I will leave this place in 2025, this world is in a dark decadence worse than anything i have seen

>>42467289
I maked a lore thread the past year and it died with 351 post

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466144
kinda hard to get into it when the op is an iceberg meme pic, sets the wrong tone

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466736
zounose has done guest art for a few of the gacha games, so he probably knows about him
and any other artists working on bigger projects he has to approve of really

[Anonymous No.]

>>42467627
true that
The map thread is also a lot lore-focused and has been going well with good quality discussion

[Anonymous No.]

>>42467627
Ok, i uderstand my error, ut i don't know what other thig to post, can someone suggest my something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468641
>Lot lore focused
Lol, that thread is pure meme
>Good quality discussion
Yes, but has a lot of shitposting

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468687
spellchecker
perhaps post a manga page with little-mentioned information, or a dialogue that throws something in the air which is never picked back up. The Eternity thread had someone share some nice information about Tokoyo no Kami

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468728
no not that one the Gensokyo map thread

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468733
MMM, i remember, that the most grreat touhou lore thread i made, whas whit a great iceberg i made by myself, and it actually worked very well

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468745
HA?

What a confusion

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468745
The gensokyo map thread its actually a good thread, so thats mean that i have to wait until it deads and i can make another lore thread?

[Anonymous No.]

I have a project: I'm trying to read and understand lots of works which have been quoted, mentioned or referenced in Touhou games. By reading this material, I believe I can achieve a higher level of understanding of the lore. Reading A Medicine for Melancholy was particularly helpful for understanding that character... Is there a comprehensive list of material to be read? I am still yet to read the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki, even though I will have to unfortunately use the translated versions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468733
What the fuck is up with the Tokoyo no Kami references and why was it never elaborated on? ZUN is making me feel schizophrenic with his lore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468833
That's good anon! I recomend you to read all the official works and mangas. Hope you go well

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468857
Yeah I have already read them all. I'm trying to get these works that influenced Touhou... Obviously I cannot know everything ZUN has read, but there does seem to be a certain body of literature to which he regularly returns.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468896
There are iteviews with zun in her house and he has books in her library, if you can read the titles i thin k it can help you, you should to see videos where people talks about touhou inspiration and then read the works, ZUN reads a lot of Japanese literature, you can see it in her references, example: Akutagawa Ryuunusuke "Kappa" Most references can be find in the games

[Anonymous No.]

>>42468918
Interviews*

[Anonymous No.]

my theory is that there is no "hakurei bloodline", reimu was just given that last name when she was made shrine maiden and she was already an orphan at that point. the youkai, perhaps yukari herself, selected her. maybe shes even from the ouside world but was too young to remember at the time. the turtle raised her. the same thing happens every time a new shrine maiden is needed

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469039
I prefer the theory that says that reimu is yukari son, but going to cano i really thing reimu is an orphan, when Reimu goes to the moon, aya says that they need to search other shrine maiden, in Gensokyo history, reimu has something like 10-20 years old, if Gensokyo was created in 1880's, that means that there were other shrine maidens, in that logic, minimum 3 or 5

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469066
Reimu is yukari's daughter*

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469074
Reimu is Kasen's daughter**
Yukari is the father

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469269
Yes

[Anonymous No.]

Christianity has no power in Gensokyo. Gensokyo was created in the late 1800s, only about 30 years after Commodore Perry forced Japan out of isolation. Before that Christianity was banned and otherwise limited to the island of Kyushu, the southwest part of Japan. There's a good bit of evidence that Gensokyo is located somewhere on Honshu, the mainland, around modern day Nagano and Yamanashi prefectures. Evidence being that the Youkai mountain has the same appearance of Mount Yatsugatake, which only remnants remain in the real world in the Yatsugatake mountain range. Lake Suwa is also nearby to this location and it has its in universe relation to the Moriya Shrine which was transported to Gensokyo in its entirety. Needless to say, this is pretty far from Christianity's foothold in Japan.
Another thing is that Christianity is rarely mentioned, and there's already three competing religions dominating Gensokyo, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto. Not to say that it doesn't exist, but I don't think the knowledge of Christianity extends past "funny foreigner religion" for many of Gensokyo's residents. There is also the fact that crosses have no effect on Remi or Flan, and they use them in their spell cards.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469348
of course Christianity isn't strong in Gensokyo
Gensokyo is the land of fantasy

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469884
Based

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469348
I think the main reason why Christianity is hardly talked about in Touhou is because ZUN wants to avoid controversy.
The other time I saw that a controversy started because this official image of A Link to the past was found with a Link praying in front of an image of Christ, and I saw a publication where many fans were offended and began to get annoyed by the matter.
And that's the thing, you always have the image that religious people are very dogmatic and are easily offended, when in reality you can't say anything to an atheist NPC without he getting offended. and today it is very difficult to see any series that speak well of the Christianity, it seems that only series can be made where Christians are criticized (but Jews and Islamists don't get the same treatment).

[Anonymous No.]

>>42470310
I must clarify. I agree with >>42469348 . The main reason why Christianity is not talked about as much is because it is not a main religion in Japan. I just wanted to add how even if ZUN decided to talk about it, it would surely generate a strong controversy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469348
>Christianity has no power in Gensokyo
this only means that there is no person of the faith in gensokyo, a monotheist god unlike the pagan faiths, doesn't need Faith to operate, but for the sake of argument lets assume in gensokyo it does to a certain extent, the moment an outsider (lets just say, a Catholic Filipino or a South Korean protestant gets in, by accident or for divine providence) then really weird thing (by the standars of the sages) could begin to occur.
>around modern day Nagano and Yamanashi prefectures
this is correct.
>crosses have no effect on Remi or Flan
this is could be tied to the first point, but also there is a fact that remi and flan can take spirtual damage from reimu Gohei and ofuda talisman, she sure is irreligious about christianity, but also about shinto and buddism and still got put in her place by them.

also we really dont know anyting about their past, if zun didn't fucked up and admit that the Bloodline of the scarlett sisters is Indeed of Vlad III, then it woud have explain everything (as Vlad in touhou could well have been THE Christian Vampire, a bloodline with high Humanity and low blood maintenance)

[Anonymous No.]

>>42469348
>>42470380
>crosses have no effect on Remi or Flan

I think ZUN didn't make them weak to crosses because in a sense it doesn't make sense for demons to be weak to crosses. I mean, a cross would come to be a symbol of torture and the way in which Jesus Christ died, so in a certain way a cross should not have the same power as holy water or a bible for example.
what I just said, I say it thinking from the perspective of someone like ZUN, that is, someone from a non-Christian culture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42470552
>it doesn't make sense for demons to be weak to crosses
Remi and flan are Devils, not Demons (there are only 2 or 3 if you stretch it Demons in Touhou, Sariel, Gengetsu and Shinki)
i could even argue that the sisters being devils is a Akyuu style error because they could be just 2 human girls infected with vampirism

but to the point, the Cross is the most powerful Subverted turture device into the simbol of hope and victory over sin and death, an example of the power of god to turn evil into perfect good. fallen angels feel pain and anguish because is a reminder of the eternal separation from god and with that, all that is virtuous.
there is a reason why St. Peter didn't want to be crucified like christ (he doesn't feel dignified for that honor) and instead requested being crucified upside down (thus the Petrine Cross is born)
>perspective of someone like ZUN, that is, someone from a non-Christian culture.
yes that could also be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42466709
this is confusing, are they satans?

[Anonymous No.]

>>42470800
Satan is a specific name not a catagory of demon

[Anonymous No.]

>>42470380
>a monotheist god unlike the pagan faiths, doesn't need Faith to operate, but for the sake of argument lets assume in gensokyo it does to a certain extent, the moment an outsider (lets just say, a Catholic Filipino or a South Korean protestant gets in, by accident or for divine providence) then really weird thing (by the standars of the sages) could begin to occur.
this is just complete fanfiction on your part that your religion must be superior and special. there is no indication at all that the christian god would work any differently from the gods we already know, and even if it did it's ridiculous to assert that the sages wouldn't know that

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471191
much like non conceptual youkai and the lunarians theres no proff that an all powerful creator god would be affected in any way by a lack of faith

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471204
let me dumb it down for you. in touhou a monotheistic god would just be like any other god except it refuses to collaborate with others. the gods created the universe and are already the most fundamental thing that exists.

[Anonymous No.]

>gods need faith to exist
>but also gods created the world far before there was anyone to have faith in them
Doesn't make sense. I don't recall ZUN ever expanding on this topic. Do only some gods need faith to exist?

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471850
you are confusing shinto gods with gods of other religions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471191
>>42471398
Let me Dumb it down even more, just for you anon.
>the christian god would work any differently from the gods we already know
>a monotheistic god would just be like any other god
wrong: God does not depend on any cause other than himself for his existence, realization, or end, and has within himself his own reason of existence. (this is being First mover + Actus Purus [I am who i am] + ipsum esse subsistens [being itself subsisting]) a monotheist God in essence need nothing.
>it's ridiculous to assert that the sages wouldn't know that
the sages can know or ignore whatever they want, what i mean with weird shit is things like.
Microtearing in the barrier, blocking all form of divination, Cancel levitation, disabling or negating all characters habilities and magic, thing that could shake the fundations of gensokyo worst that any incident to date and make all the greater youkais shit themself.
>your religion must be superior and special
yes and here are reasons INSIDE touhou:
Zun confirmed that the timeline of gensokyo is just our timeline (that is why you get a reference to the 2016 election by Miko), that means its safe to assume that the histoical events of the world were the same BUT with some supernatural and magic throw in the middle, Example:
>some dude moises and one angel of death Dabbin in whole the egyptian phanteon for real
>Julian the apostate really had help from the hellenistic pantheon and he still lost
>the last words of the oracle of delphi
>Certain Frankish king stomping Germanic and Slavic pagans
>Saint Boniface Axing the Oak and thor could do nothing.
>king olaf the Stout became christian, nailing the coffing of the nordic pagans.
>Spanish Conquistadors stoping human sacrifices, and tearing the aztec empire to the ground (by logic the aztec pantheon should have done absolutely everything in their power to stop this, just because extreme necesity)
>the same with the incas
>Lithuanians Geting Crusaded, end up converting by existencial necesity.
>Kievan Rus Orthodox priest Duking it out against mongol tengri shamans through their own troops
>America exist in touhou, which implies manifest Destiny and the conquist and displacement of Indo american animist.
>Chinese Boxers Rebels with Real taoist sorcery for stopping bullets, went agains their christian enemies in the Peking Legation Quarter and failing hard, they also were besieging a catholic catedral, also failed
>Buzz Aldrin taking holy communion in the moon, Proced ,with Neil armstrog to kick lunarian ass. even though the lunarians are masters of "Magic and Technology"
I could go on and on. but yes, there is something goin on with the weird Carpenter, even in touhou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471850
>>42472189

I don't remember very well, but I think Rinnosuke in CoLA explains that they are the shinto gods. basically gods exist before they have names, but once people give it a name, a god with personality and individuality is created, but if faith is lost and the god is forgotten, its uniqueness is diluted.
Example: a miracle happens and it starts to rain in a desert, it was the work of a god but since you don't know of any god that is capable of that, you say that it is the work of a new god, so they name it taki taki, which In Japanese it would come to mean "the god who makes it rain in the desert" so a temple is made for him and he begins to be venerated so that he can make it rain when needed.
This is how I understand it, I am not an expert on the subject nor do I remember much, but I think that with this explanation of how I understand it you can understand the subject a little better.

[Anonymous No.]

>>42471204
this is reasonable, the scarlett sisters, Mamizou, Nue, kasen, preceed the creation of the barrier which implies that many youkais dont need it for their existence, just for convenience. (the hobgoblins had to come from somwhere)
>>42471850
this is also a valid point, shinto gods are not extent from a myth of creation

[Anonymous No.]

>>42472233
Thank you for explaining the point I was making 10x better then I could've
Take some hu's in Texas for your trouble

[Anonymous No.]

>>42472233
most touhou gods exist since before reality and are increated. also i don't see how any of that matters at all. events from real world myths and religion didn't actually happen in the touhou timeline, they are warped retelling of the facts that really happened. for example the story of the watatsuki sisters: in the myth they are the watatsumi sisters and live under the sea, but of course we know that is wrong.
everything else is fanfiction you literally made up.
>>42472259
not only there is a shinto myth of creation, shinto gods canonically created the universe in touhou. any assertion that the christian god would be intrisically superior rather than just being the same type of being is completely delusional

[Anonymous No.]

>>42474411
sounds like a whole lotta nothing not backed up by anything but headcanon. The only point you have is that myths/=character in setting and all that proves is that historical events and myths that preceded the barrier going up aren't 1:1 once they pass into fantasy. What actually happened prior to passing into fantasy still happened as is unless explicitly stated otherwise