/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

new thread, >>4060523

someone asked for these earlier, I believe:

http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/5207.html#cutid2
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text

I've been looking at Van Dine's rules, and I think RK7 managed to violate all of them in some manner or the other, that's impressive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062191
Well, naturally the ones that overlap with Knox aren't violated. The biggest one that seems to be in question right now is that the servant cannot be the culprit.

I thought the 20th was violated just now, but as some anon's pointed out, whereas Battler's reasoning was violating it, his conclusions were most likely wrong, therefore it doesn't actually violate the rule. (Although I still wonder how EP4's dungeon incident can be explained without violating part (g), short of saying that they never entered the dungeon in the first place).

What other ones seem to be violated, OP?

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062225
Can I take that as Shannon fingering herself in front of everyone?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062239

She must have one helluva period, too.

[Anonymous No.]

Umishit

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062221
>1. The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery.
Yeah....no
> 2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
I guess if we all the magic scenes Beatrice/GM's tricks/deceptions, then I guess it doesn't violate it, but...
>3. There must be no love interest.
>4. The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit.
Erika fucking things up
> 5-8 Not really violating so much as referenced?
> 9. There must be but one detective...To bring the minds of three or four, or sometimes a gang of detectives to bear on a problem..
Everytime the Epitaph shows up and Battler discusses the mystery with everyone and their mom.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062247
sounds more the magic is just fucking things up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062247
>with everyone and their mom

literally

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062221
The tunnel can be easily explained without violating the 20th rule by that they were never relocated from the dining room - they simply killed some people, knocked the rest out using drug in the food(HINTED FROM MYSTERY HINT X WHICH I REFUSE TO ELABORATE ON), changed the interior (USING ELABORATE PRE-LAID STRUCTURE Y WHICH I REFUSE TO ELABORATE ON HINTED FROM MYSTERIOUS HINT Z I WOULDN'T PUT IT PAST GRANDFATHER). The tunnel they escaped from actually goes downward slowly, and it goes back up toward the grate.

[Anonymous No.]

Umineko doesnt follow Dine's rules so why do we care

[Anonymous No.]

>1. The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.
Battler realizes the truth in a miraculous epiphany and then intentionally hides it. He implies you can magically arrive at the full truth of everything by reading episodes 1-4 again.
>2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be played on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
lol. Episode 5's scene with all characters in the drawing room, for one, which tricks people into denying Shkannon. There must be countless examples of violating this.
>3. There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar.
lol.
>4. The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit. This is bald trickery, on a par with offering some one a bright penny for a five-dollar gold piece. It is false pretenses.
Battler suggested to be the culprit in episode 5. Erika the culprit in episode 6, though in both cases they weren't really the detective. Since this is similar to a Knox rule, it isn't completely violated.
>5. The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession. To solve a criminal problem in this latter fashion is like sending the reader on a deliberate wild-goose chase, and then telling him, after he has failed, that you had the object of his search up your sleeve all the time. Such an author is no better than a practical joker.
Remains to be seen. Likely won't violate.

[Anonymous No.]

>6. The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic.
Battler is largely incompetent. Erika in episode 5 is a relatively useless detective because nothing is from her viewpoint. There is no detective for much of episode 6.
>7. There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better. No lesser crime than murder will suffice. Three hundred pages is far too much bother for a crime other than murder. After all, the reader's trouble and expenditure of energy must be rewarded.
Not violated. Episode 5 has Krauss's murder at least.
>8. The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means. Such methods for learning the truth as slate-writing, Ouija-boards, mind-reading, spiritualistic séances, crystal-gazing, and the like, are taboo. A reader has a chance when matching his wits with a rationalistic detective, but if he must compete with the world of spirits and go chasing about the fourth dimension of metaphysics, he is defeated ab initio.
Similar to a Knox rule. Not fully violated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062267
because it's the step-by-step logic which /jp/ plans to follow so that they can find a reason hate umineko for some abstract reason if it gets too popular on /a/. which it did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062267
The only rules Umineko follows are Ryukishi's rules, which apparently state that stopping your family from dying is not nearly as important as saving a nonexistent blonde woman.

[Anonymous No.]

>9. There must be but one detective — that is, but one protagonist of deduction — one deus ex machina. To bring the minds of three or four, or sometimes a gang of detectives to bear on a problem, is not only to disperse the interest and break the direct thread of logic, but to take an unfair advantage of the reader. If there is more than one detective the reader does not know who his coeducator is. It is like making the reader run a race with a relay team.
Not violated.
>10. The culprit must turn out to be a person who has played a more or less prominent part in the story — that is, a person with whom the reader is familiar and in whom he takes an interest.
Similar to a Knox rule, not violated. At least yet. Most likely won't be.
>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.
Probably violated.
>12. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature.
Who knows? It seems unlikely that there is a single main culprit at this point, but it's possible if the culprit is Shkannontrice.
>13. Secret societies, camorras, mafias, et al., have no place in a detective story. A fascinating and truly beautiful murder is irremediably spoiled by any such wholesale culpability. To be sure, the murderer in a detective novel should be given a sporting chance; but it is going too far to grant him a secret society to fall back on. No high-class, self-respecting murderer would want such odds.
No such thing yet.

[【 五角場 ～ 之 ～ 無名氏 】 No.]

We all love Rifyuさん around here, but have you ever considered other good 4koma artists?

Here's one from Lipton
( http://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=475021 )

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062266
KNOOOOOOOXXXXXXX
>>4062267
it's just funny, almost as if RK7 was TRYING to defy them, it sets up an interesting parallel with how he talks about Knox's.

tl;dr lol fuck Van DIne

[Anonymous No.]

>14. The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be rational and scientific. That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier. Once an author soars into the realm of fantasy, in the Jules Verne manner, he is outside the bounds of detective fiction, cavorting in the uncharted reaches of adventure.
Similar to a Knox rule. Not fully violated.
>15. The truth of the problem must at all times be apparent — provided the reader is shrewd enough to see it. By this I mean that if the reader, after learning the explanation for the crime, should reread the book, he would see that the solution had, in a sense, been staring him in the face -- that all the clues really pointed to the culprit — and that, if he had been as clever as the detective, he could have solved the mystery himself without going on to the final chapter. That the clever reader does often thus solve the problem goes without saying.
Probably not violated, at least arguably.
>16. A detective novel should contain no long descriptive passages, no literary dallying with side-issues, no subtly worked-out character analyses, no "atmospheric" preoccupations. such matters have no vital place in a record of crime and deduction. They hold up the action and introduce issues irrelevant to the main purpose, which is to state a problem, analyze it, and bring it to a successful conclusion. To be sure, there must be a sufficient descriptiveness and character delineation to give the novel verisimilitude.
lol.
>17. A professional criminal must never be shouldered with the guilt of a crime in a detective story. Crimes by housebreakers and bandits are the province of the police departments — not of authors and brilliant amateur detectives. A really fascinating crime is one committed by a pillar of a church, or a spinster noted for her charities.
No real professional criminals in the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062269
>Erika the culprit in episode 6, though in both cases they weren't really the detective.

Erika was the detective in EP6, she just wasn't granted as many privileges as she had in EP5.

[Anonymous No.]

>18. A crime in a detective story must never turn out to be an accident or a suicide. To end an odyssey of sleuthing with such an anti-climax is to hoodwink the trusting and kind-hearted reader.
Plenty of murders in Umineko are probably either. However, most detective novels have a single murder. Umineko at least has one per episode.
>19. The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plotting and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.
Probably not violated.
>20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. (a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect. (b) The bogus spiritualistic séance to frighten the culprit into giving himself away. (c) Forged fingerprints. (d) The dummy-figure alibi. (e) The dog that does not bark and thereby reveals the fact that the intruder is familiar. (f) The final pinning of the crime on a twin, or a relative who looks exactly like the suspected, but innocent, person. (g) The hypodermic syringe and the knockout drops. (h) The commission of the murder in a locked room after the police have actually broken in. (i) The word association test for guilt. (j) The cipher, or code letter, which is eventually unraveled by the sleuth.
Violated.

It seems about half and half to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062278
well most Rifyu's comics got translated

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062274
Remember when we were allowed to enjoy Ep5 for those few days? I don't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062246

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062278
If only...

[Anonymous No.]

So I haven't been reading these threads since the ShKanontrice thing started.
Surely some other theories were made, some that were solid and not stupid, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062315
If you want a theory that solves episode 6 without at least Shkannon, figure it out yourself, don't expect someone to do it for you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062315
It's unfortunate, but Shkannon solves episode 6, and most of the rest of the murders incredibly well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062315
Shkannontrice has a few holes or at least question marks in it, so there's at least some hope left on that front.

It's not looking like anything can be done about Shkannon, though.

[Anonymous No.]

Wait... how have people read EP 6 already?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062343
Spoilers / knowing Japanese

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062349
You forgot the reason for most of us: ATLAS. Trying to figure out the story from spoilers is terrible, you'll get all sorts of things wrong by trying to fill in the gaps. With ATLAS it isn't so bad, some scenes might completely fly over your head but for the most part you can tell what's going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062337
What are the holes?
Anything to destroy it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062349

Oh that makes sense.

But why spoil it so soon? Dosnt that take the fun out of reading it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062358
There is nothing that can destroy it. Put your hopes on episode 7 for disproving it, because you're going to be hearing about Shkannontrice for months to come. And it's probably right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062358
Beatrice doesn't have Shannon's tattoo, Beatrice is stated to be 19 years old, and Battler refused to escape from the trapped room if it exposed even part of Beatrice's heart (and the solution to his escape seems to be Shkannon.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062361
think of it this way, you got hooked so much you came on to talk about it, but ep6 just happen to be released. And you just happen to see it.

Now you're hooked all over again, just not in the same manner.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062376
Yeah, they aren't holes, they are easily explainable.
Thought it was going to be more solid, oh well 8 months will be long.

[Anonymous No.]

Umineko doesn't even follow Knox's rules. Why are we even considering that they might be valid? Just because Dlanor keeps using them does not mean she is correct.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062376
Well, Beatrice does have the One Winged Eagle tattooed on her legs (like Shannon), it's just on the opposite leg.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062376
How many females are 19 in the game? None, if I recall correctly? (other than Beatrice, of course) This gives me the idea that RK will either find a way to make Beatrice real, or say some shit like "lol Shannon is 16 years old buy Sayo is 19!!!!!"

[Anonymous No.]

1) Zepar and Furfur orchestrated a trial where they were to go to the gameboard and select one person to kill. If both people in a pairing successfully killed somebody, they moved on to the next trial. Moetrice and Battler were also included because Moetrice really wanted to become one with Beatroll again so she and Battler could fall in love again so she joined up.
2) They could kill whomever they wanted to. George killed his mother because she was in the way of his marriage. Jessica killed Kyrie, the first person she saw, because she was kinda wary about the whole thing. Kanon killed Rosa because he thought she was pitiful. Shannon killed Maria (who came raging back after her mom got killed) in defense of Kanon. Moetrice killed Natsuhi because Battler proposed in the last game that he might've been the baby thrown off the cliff, and if this was so then Natsuhi was Battler's enemy. Battler...well.
3) See previous two.
4) Eva turned into Eva-Beato and kept testing George on the things she did for him, but he stuck it through and killed her. Leviathan came to help Kyrie (and in fact stabbed Jessica in the head, but she lived through it through the power of LOVE and erm demons), then Kyrie hid herself in a locked room (but demon-Jessica constructed a locked room murder scenario and killed her). Kanon simply talked to Rosa, who explained her living "hell" of a situation, and gave he gave her an instant, painless death with his LAZER. Shannon used her shield to press a crying Maria against the wall because Sakutaro as a diplomat made her unattackable by attack magic. Natsuhi used her spirit mirror. Battler...well, again

Meta Batller made Battler commit suicuide.
Jessica got a help from Ronove.
George got the help from Gaap.
Next GM is Bern.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062397
Any significance to the side the eagle is on? Battler's is also reversed from the norm.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062397
The tattoo is irrelevant. Beatrice doesn't exist in any way - i.e. not in terms of physical appearance, and not in terms of mentality.

Just forget about the tattoo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062417
That is, assuming he said Shannon was 16. I don't even remember how old he said she was in the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062191
This picture is hilarious and true lol.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062417
>This gives me the idea that RK will either find a way to make Beatrice real, or say some shit like "lol Shannon is 16 years old buy Sayo is 19!!!!!"

Well, Jessica may be 19. In the end, we don't really have confirmation for any of the characters' birthdates.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062394
That's not the point, and specifically why I'm angry. Does it really work? does it not? While we're pondering upon this some new character slaps the rules in our faces, so we have to assume they apply, or should they not? They're in red, right?

The fact that those rules are mentioned and used is what's important, because I feel it's fucking up the story even more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062417
Her age was never said in red. I think Shannon being 19 fits her better than 16, actually. At first I thought she was about Battler's age, but that was proved wrong with the '10 years ago, 6 years old' thing. I found it especially strange when the cousins talk about what she was like 6 years ago.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062417
Or just that Beatrice is 19 in the myth.
Kinzo met his first Beatrice when she was 19 and only at that age.
So for him, Beatrice was eternally 19.

In the mental image of the culprit, Beatrice is 19, doesn't have to be true in the real world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062431
Turns out Kanon is a woman and also capable of murdering an entire family of his bosses.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062425
Mirror.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062441
I thought shannon was at least as old as battler?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062425

Wait.

Really?

Biggest ? in the Shkanontrice theory is the definition of a person. If the definition of a person is incompatible with that theory, that theory crumbles, no going around it.

In the mean time. If people want to be rid of it, another viable theory must be presented. There's the old Manon/Maria standby of course, but it's underdeveloped and doesn't solve EP6.

[Anonymous No.]

Who is this supposed Bern's master from Ep. 6 ????

Featherine?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062453
No, she's apparently 16, because she was hired 10 years ago when she was 6. It could easily be a false age, though. Especially how she seems older and everyone seems to think she is at first. And like I said, when the cousins talk about what she was like 6 years ago, it seems really strange that she was 10 years old, 2 years younger than Battler, 7 years younger than George.

Also, it makes George seem less creepy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062442
>Or just that Beatrice is 19 in the myth.

Beatrice is 1000 years old in the myth, I think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062455
Yes, Featherine. Featherine and those two love demons are the only new characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062452
Mirror shows the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062462
yeah...they're engaged at 16 and 23? I didn't even know that was possible back in the 80s, in Japan.

[Anonymous No.]

One flaw I see in the Shkanontrice theory is that in order for Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice, assuming that this Beatrice is going to be the one who sticks with / is in love with Battler, Beatrice has to be a woman. Therefore ShKanon has to be female. And, no matter how you look at it, Kanon (while suggested to be as weak as a girl) is as flat as a board. This means that Shkanon is either a girl with no boobs, or Beatrice is going to be a trap his entire life and Battler will have to turn gay.

[【 五角場 ～ 之 ～ 無名氏 】 No.]

>>4062455
Auaurora

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062462
>George
>Creepy

Double your age minus seven rule applied to Shannon. It's all good.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062483
He probably first started falling for her when she was 10, though, since that's apparently when he came out of his childhood "shell" because he was jealous of seeing how well Battler got along with everyone, and Battler hasn't been around for 6 years. So he was 17, and she was 10.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062493
taking advantage of a little girl AND feelings arose from jealousy?

creeeepy

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062440

Knox rules are just a tool and a reassurance that the mystery can be solved from Ryukishi. It's just a gift that allows you to filter endless possibilities and arrive at an answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062462
How about this: Shannon is actually 17. She was hired 10 years + X months ago when she was 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062497

This is /jp/. If anything, that first one makes George more awesome.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062493
Not even the gentlemanly George is spared. Do any of the characters deserve to live?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062512
I'd be all over loli Shannon too. I can't really blame him for it.

[Anonymous No.]

Shannon's got huge tits. Who cares about her age?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062518
Kinzo certainly was.

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

>>4062506
More specifically, it means you can solve the mystery with all the clues provided without making some giant logical leaps of faith.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062522
>Shannon
>huge tits

Sorry to disappoint you but let me direct you to the Shkanontrice theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062526
but it's giving readers the opposite effect; now it feels like we DO need a huge leap of faith.

[Anonymous No.]

Didn't Battler say he applied the Knox rules when he arrived to the truth?

Also, why so butthurt about the rules? They work well, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062526

Besides, even arriving at a wrong conclusion (due to Knox rules not applying or something) there is still some value he to be gained by considering that point of view. Just turn the chessboard around several times. That's what Battler realized on his journey towards the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

I hope you children choke on a piece of fecal matter and die.
The theory that Kanon = Shannon is too stupid for words.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062509
I was thinking of it as

She had the name Sayo for 3 years before going to the orphanage.
She was raised in the orphanage for 6 years with the name Shannon
She was then hired as a servant and served for 10 years.
Therefore Shannon is 16 years old, while Sayo is 19.
However, my memory of how the orphanage works isn't too clear.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062532
No thank you, fuck off.
I have erotic fanart and doujinshi.

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

>>4062538
Why?

The revelations we've gotten in Ep. 6 aren't exactly shocking, you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>loli Shannon
I prefer loli Jessica, myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062543
Too bad it's going to happen, and you forgot Beatrice.
Blame Ryukichi07.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062543
>The theory that Kanon = Shannon is too stupid for words.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062543

In before mind controlling parasites, Shmion, Hive Queen, Hanyuu, etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062545
No information is given about the orphanage that would help or hinder your theory. We don't know much about it other than its name and that orphans there are offered the opportunity to become Ushiromiya furniture if they get high grades.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062468
But how is she Bern's "master"?

[Anonymous No.]

Can anyone direct me to Sakutaro porn?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062551
>sure they aren't

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062538

I'm interested in your POV. Do you mind explaining? There's something I don't get.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062562
>Hanyuu

Too bad Hanyuuv2 is already in the game hitting it up with Bernkastel plotting on how to cause fuck up some shit in ep 7.

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

>>4062572
Give me one example.

[Anonymous No.]

From episode 2.
Read this, shit bricks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062571
Here you go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062578
Pic fails when you read the whole scene.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062578
>Kanon, unable to replace Maria's candy as a man.
>Returns in his/her Beatrice guise.
>Here little girl, take my magic candy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062578

Excellent. Keep on posting shit like that.

Corner us again and again into a corner with your evidence, and the closer we are to checkmate, the clearer we can see your moves, and the easier for us to turn the chessboard around.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062577
I think he means the whole Shkanon deal, which, although many people noticed long ago, no one really took it seriously, and it was mostly a joke.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062578
Kannon is girl.
In fact it's believable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062592
When the person originally posted the pic, they said that they purposely excluded the scene where Kanon has the flashback of meeting Beatrice over the summer in order to save space. However, the "as if waiting for a memory of Beatrice to be revived" is still suspicious regardless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062607
And the fact that he was the last one to be seen with Maria, and that he thought of switching her candy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062578
If you think about it logically, it should have been obvious.
Kanon is the only one who saw Maria's candy get trampled.
He had a similar candy.
Later Beatrice come and use "magic" to give Maria a new candy.

Really fucking obvious.

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

>>4062604
Shkanon's not a revelation, it's a fucking theory. Anybody who believes that it was confirmed needs to actually read Ep. 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062573
Let's ignore the ShKanon stuff for now. If you just look at 1-4 (or5), the Knox's commandments make it seemingly impossible to solve the murders. And don't tell me that it IS solvable because the only "good" theory is the ShKanon one. It's not really one that you'd "believe" in the first place because it's contrived. I can think of a couple others (well, one), but it's contrived too.
>>4062577
I was being sarcastic, stop being so confrontational

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062625
>If you just look at 1-4 (or5), the Knox's commandments make it seemingly impossible to solve the murders. And don't tell me that it IS solvable because the only "good" theory is the ShKanon one.
Huh? Tell me any murder in games 1-4 and I'll solve it for you without using Shkannon, and not violating the Knox rules.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062615
Kannon went to Shannon a gave a candy then Shannon gave a candy to Maria.

[Anonymous No.]

Personally I don't feel that ShKanontrice is that contrived, for a fiction, simply because the interactions between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice really feel like your standard anime DID.

The way Kanon always appears like a ninja and say that looking over Shannon is his job.
The way they both keep saying they aren't complete humans, again and again.
The way Beatrice tries to "seduce" Shannon into doing what she want, like she is simply a part of her heart.

[Anonymous No.]

where do i get rifyu's translated works?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062620
>Anybody who believes that it was confirmed needs to actually read Ep. 6.

I think YOU should read EP6 faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062639
It's late and I'm barely staying awake, so you don't have to try too hard...let's say, what about the one where George fights Gaap and Jessica fights Ronove, but they end up killing one another?

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

>>4062650
Nothing in the game that explicitly states that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, sir. What have you been reading?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062652
If I recall correctly, they only kill themselves in the magic scene. Then you had that whole revival bullshit that Ronove pulled and then Jessica called Battler, which implies that they didn't actually kill each other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062625

I think it's because both Knox Rules, and the Red were used to force a particular meaning or way of thinking onto the reader. It removes the branches of possibility and narrows it down to a single answer. That's why the murders always seem unsolvable, and things seem impossible. They're made that way to ensure a single interpretation and for the reader to get an "Aha!" moment.

For the record, I don't believe in Shkanontrice, because it doesn't seem plausible, and it has a glaring weakness that Ryukishi can use to troll the fuck out of people (which he will).

The answer is out there and could be found. Abdication of thought is an instant loss, so I'll keep rereading and thinking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062639
Kanon's death in episode 2, and zombie Kanon later.
Do it.

[Anonymous No.]

ShKanontrice is the fake truth, just like aliens in Higurashi. The real truth must be very close but a bit different.

Anyways, anybody figured out what this "gruesome truth about golden land" that was supposed to be in Ep. V is?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062665
i think they were stated in red to have died, though. And I don't see a point in showing that they killed each other if it doesn't mean anything.

Don't mind about it, I'll try to be on tomorrow, see if I think of any then, out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062668
What is the weakness?
And Ryuukichi had been building it up since the beginning, he won't troll.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062652
Well I was expecting you to mention a murder by it's mystery aspect rather than its fantasy aspect, I don't know what you want me to say about this one.

Jessica was part of the plot or being manipulated by the culprit in some way. She couldn't see George very well from where she was, according to Battler, so it didn't happen as she claims it did, obviously. She was probably made to say things by the culprit, and then the culprit killed her. The hint for this is that she "knew" how her corpse was going to be found. She was the first one to talk to the parents who were supposedly imprisoned over the phone, and that might have been used as an opportunity to work her into some kind of plot. George was simply shot in the forehead with a pistol then had a stake planted in there.

I was expecting something more like, you know, a closed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062661
Barely anything in Umineko is stated explicitly.

But it's heavily implied, to the point where I don't see a way to solve the closed room in 6 without Shkannon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062661
Ah, it indeed wasn't explicitly stated, but let me tell you something, we'll get explicit answers for nothing. All we'll get are hints, some hints more obvious than others, and the hints in EP6 regarding Shkanon were painfully obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062673
Bomb.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062673
So not alien parasites but just parasites.

So not ShKanontrice but ShKanon and ugly/deadtrice. Not very satisfying mang.

[Anonymous No.]

Something tells me that Ryuu-cakes is just trolling us with Shkanontrice and it turns out to be wrong.

He seems to like doing this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062672
>Kanon's death in episode 2
1. Kanon's servant persona died, "Joshua" lived on and killed those two. He was described as Kanon, but not Kanon. This is because he was indeed Kanon, but he no longer acted like furniture, and he did things completely unprecedented.
2. The servants are cooerced into lying by Genji, Kanon's body was simply carried off somewhere, perhaps it was present in the servants room at the scene of the crime. The hint for this is that Gohda is hesistant on what to say. Is this really because he finds it hard to explain what happened, or is it because he was ordered to keep his mouth quiet, but ordered by Rosa to say what happened? Genji takes over for him and makes up a ridiculous story. Genji could very well have killed those two as, after being told by Rosa she won't believe those two are dead until their corpses are found, he conveniently finds their corpses.

[Anonymous No.]

Everyone is on drugs, and they were all murdered by the mysterious added character who is a twin of Battler and also the Detective, who solves the mystery by drawing on the power of magic and uses clues which are not presented to the reader.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062698
Doesn't work at all.
Joshua is just a second name, there's no indication whatsoever that there's a person or personality named Joshua.

What you wrote is far, far more contrived than ShKanontrice, and doesn't have any evidences going for it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062677
I always figured Jessica was the one who killed George.

She was the first one out, got George to the pier area, killed him right as he arrived, then went back to her room and told Battler everything. He wasn't able to confirm her death until the Tea Party, so obviously after he meets with "Beatrice" too.

But I'm just trying to shoehorn something that isn't fucking stupid Shkannontrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062697
of course, that's what he llikes doing the mmost, if the Shkanontrice gets REALLY popular, just pull and Shkanon and xtrice, possibly Jessitrice if he's planning to do wha I expect to

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062697
He said that episode 6 was made to confirm the doubts of those who know the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062708
It does have evidence going for it, I stated my evidence. Aren't you just denying clues because they aren't shoved into your face and made beyond obvious? I find the second explanation pretty likely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062708
It's not that there's a person or persona, it's that Kanon is Joshua's furniture name. If he's no longer furniture, then he's no longer Kanon. Therefore, Kanon "died."

[Anonymous No.]

Can any of you ShKanonTrice faggots explain the entire riddle as well as the Danshui theory?

[Anonymous No.]

I still say Kyrie's behind it all. So much more potential there, rather than having "the butler did it."

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062661
Whereas nothing explicitly says it, you have many implications. Such as:

-Shannon and Kanon's interactions with each other all the time
-The fact that they're never seen together
-The fact that they're seen together in episode 5, just to later have it told that Battler was not the detective of that game, therefore it didn't count.
-The fact that RK went out of his way to give Shannon and Kanon seperate names other than the aliases provided to the readers.
-Even in their magic battles, Kanon's magic is seen as offensive, while Shanon's is defensive. Then they worked together in EP4 when channelling their powers or whatever magical BS was going on.
-etc etc.

The only thing I'm wondering about is during EP5 when Erika suspended the game by bringing everyone into the room and locking the doors. For her to have waited until everyone was there, she must've seen both Shannon and Kanon together, and since she is the detective it automatically means they're acknowledged to be different people. Except it's 5:30 AM right now and I'm tired and don't feel like confirming whether she sees them both or not

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062718
And yet it made everyone who scoffed at ShKanon begrudgingly accept it. What happened to subtlety?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062736
maybe she killed Asumu in one wy or another, it's Kyrie

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062738
>>What happened to subtlety?
R07 never had it from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062672
>Kanon's death in episode 2

I think he was killed by another servant. He probably found out something, tried to protect Jessica and got killed. Then, they removed his body to incriminate him.

>and zombie Kanon later

There was no zombie Kanon. If you remember, Kumasawa's and Nanjo's corpses weren't found in the servants room, but all of them made it seem as if Kanon had done that, once again, they tried to incriminate him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062728
Doesn't work that way, it's really stupid, far more stupid than DID shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062737
In the narration of episode 5, it's said that Shannon was "behind" Erika.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062684
That's it? Wasn't that obvious from like Ep.2? I was expecting something like the jurney from the epitaph leading from Kinzo's hometown to Hiroshima.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062755
Then how about
>2. The servants are cooerced into lying by Genji, Kanon's body was simply carried off somewhere, perhaps it was present in the servants room at the scene of the crime. The hint for this is that Gohda is hesistant on what to say. Is this really because he finds it hard to explain what happened, or is it because he was ordered to keep his mouth quiet, but ordered by Rosa to say what happened? Genji takes over for him and makes up a ridiculous story. Genji could very well have killed those two as, after being told by Rosa she won't believe those two are dead until their corpses are found, he conveniently finds their corpses.
Don't deny both theories because you don't like the premise of one of them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062187
please cease and desist with your spamming on our board ano
n
ta
lk.c
om thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062759
Oh. I see, thanks about that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062738
I still don't accept it. It's just a theory, and a theory that I find to be flawed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062751
Room was a closed room.
And where was Kanon's body?

[Anonymous No.]

Witches did it

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062776
>Room was a closed room.

Irrelevant, as the servants have keys.


>And where was Kanon's body?

Who knows? The purpose of hiding a body is that it isn't found, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062776
Closed room is easily solved with any of the servants acting as culprit. Genji and Shannon claimed they were with Kinzo at the time, that's of course no alibi.

Kanon's body was carried off so suspicion could be placed on him, since he was last seen running to Jessica. It worked well on Rosa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062790
Why would they purposedly hide Kanon's corpse?
Why do we never see Kanon's corpse anyways?

[Anonymous No.]

Alright.

Kanon's death in episode 1, do it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062802
I'm not a supporter of the theory, but it's pretty easy.

He didn't die. Stabbed himself in a non-lethal area, Nanjo bandaged him up, proclaimed him dead, and he ran off when everyone wasn't looking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062792
>Why would they purposedly hide Kanon's corpse?

Did you even read my previous post?

Allow me to quote myself:

>I think he was killed by another servant. He probably found out something, tried to protect Jessica and got killed. Then, they removed his body to incriminate him.
>Then, they removed his body to incriminate him.


>Why do we never see Kanon's corpse anyways?

Why should we? Anyhow, Jessica supposedly saw it in EP1, and about 7 people saw his corpse in the chapel in EP3 and said that in front of Battler, I doubt they were all lying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062792
A numerous number of coincidences. Kanon's corpse not being seen is supposed to be a hint for Shkannon, aren't you asking for an explanation without that?

How about he's aware of some kind of plot but won't go along with it and is therefore manipulated in various ways. In episode 1, he manages to fake his death with the help of Nanjo and Jessica. Nanjo could work with him because in episode 2, Nanjo is killed along with Kumasawa and Kanon is framed. If you assume those 3 are therefore innocent, it fits. In episode 2, his body was taken away because he was framed. In episode 3, his body was simply never seen because the parents were the ones who discovered the bodies, and they were trying to keep their children safe, and also no doubt didn't want them to see the bodies. In episode 4, his body isn't found because it's in the "passage." And before you bring up no secret the no secret passages Knox rule, allow me to suggest that any passage that is made clear to the reader does not count as "secret", because the purpose of the rule is to prevent such unfair things outside the readers knowledge. If they know of the passage because they have been clearly told, why would that rule apply to it? It would be completely arbitrary.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062811
This. Was already stated in red the boiler room situation was not a homicide, suicide, or accident, so he didn't die.

The only people to "confirm" his death is the highly suspicious Nanjo, and the fairly suspicious Jessica.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062802
>Kanon's death in episode 1, do it.

He didn't die. None of the red texts point out he died. Nanjo made a fake diagnosis and fooled Jessica (unless she's another accomplice).

[Anonymous No.]

You all now realize that performing all the murders by oneself in all episodes is possible for Kanon. Even without this whole Shannon/Kanon bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062811
Yeah that's the most likely solution.
So for you guys he doesn't die in episode 1.
But he dies in episode 2, killed by Genji or whatever.
And he dies again in episode 3.

So the killers change every games?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062824
Not really since Kanon's death is confirmed in red several time.

And don't give me the Joshua bullshit, it's far more contrived than ShKanontrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062831
>And don't give me the Joshua bullshit, it's far more contrived than ShKanontrice.

Technically, it's the same shit, since it means they don't die, but once aspect of them does, and thus they can keep on living.

[Anonymous No.]

No character has ever struck me as so suspicious as Nanjo.
He is one suspicious motherfucker.
Everything he does is a kind of "behind the scenes, assumed" thing, because he's always being described in a passive form. Never
"Nanjo confirmed that the people are dead.", always "After a brief inspection" and then describes his dialogue about how the people are dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062831

I'll be honest, I forgot most of my theories that allow him to commit all the murders. Though I do know that EP1 and EP3 are all possible for Kanon....Or maybe it was EP1 and EP4? Shit, I can't be fucked to remember it all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062825
Let's say the killers start the same every game, but due to fighting back at them and suspicion, other people kill. It's fact that the only way to solve every murder in the game is using Kanon, working around the red with the fact that his "persona" dies at points and either switches to Joshua, or Shannon, or Beatrice, or whatever you're claiming. If you don't want to work around the red like that, there simply cannot be one killer for all murders, it's impossible. Nobody even comes close.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062835
>No character has ever struck me as so suspicious as Nanjo.

6 episodes in and the old fart has still never died in a 1st Twilight.

[Anonymous No.]

Here's a thought.

Episode 4, in the prison at Kuwadorian. During the phone conversation with the Cousins, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Nanjo say that Shannon and Kanon are both in the room with them. Shannon and Kanon both talk to George and Jessica.

Therefore, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Nanjo would have to be in on this entire thing, because why else would they say that there are two different people in the room when there's only one person there?
If you say that they're all guilty, then that means we have at least 3 accomplices. Not counting other instances, like in Episode 2, then you add on more and more accomplices to this theory until it looks like the entire island has it out to kill each other. And Battler is the only one not in on it.

Like some sort of crazy ass Battle Royale remake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062833
Yeah but in the ShKanontrice case, it's DID bullshit.
Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice really believes that they are different persons, they live and interact with other people separately, they have their own identities.

For Joshua/Kanon, Joshua is just a second name, there's no indication whatsoever that a second personality Joshua exists or that simply calling him Joshua make him a different person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062837
Can't be EP4, he's stated in red to be the ninth person killed in the Tea Party. Kyrie, Shannon, Nanjo, and Krauss were all killed after he died.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062841
I worked this out a while ago, the people who have the most opportunity to kill are Hideyoshi, Shannon in Kanon. I think in that order. If you account for death of personalities, then I believe instead the order is reversed, Kanon, Shannon, Hideyoshi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062848
Rudolph wasn't there but Krauss.

>Shannon and Kanon both talk to George and Jessica.

I don't remember this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062848
Genji, Kumasa and Nanjo are in it, seeing their meta world versions.
And for the others, they were just threatened.

The whole point of episode 4 was to make Battler remember his promise.
And what better way than mindfucking him like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062843

Nor the second, or third. I believe he has died in the fourth though, but still. It reminds me of the "Red herring" from "And then there were none".

>>4062851

You know, I always found it fishy that it was said that "the 9th person killed is Kanon". Where as all the others were simply just stated that they were killed. Shit, now I remembered why that red text weighed so much on my mind. Good going jerk.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062848
It was Krauss, Kyrie, and Nanjo.

Nanjo is already a target of suspicion, at this point he damn well better be an accomplice, Kyrie has been suspected to be the final boss, and Krauss can be coerced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062857
Right, sorry, mixed up in my head there for a second.

Anyways, it was a minor note, but it was noted that they talked to each other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062848
What if only one of them is the culprit and the other ones are being forced to say things? The culprit is the one who acts as "Kinzo" throughout the episode. I think the most likely person is Kyrie, partly because she is one of the last to die, partly because of her phone call, and partly because when Battler is talking to her on the phone earlier, Battler says to pass a message over Kinzo "I'm gonna punch yo face," or something, and the narration says that without Kyrie trying to repeat it, it reached Kinzo's ears. This struck me as suspicious, I thought maybe Kinzo could hear it because he was the one on the phone - ie, he was Kyrie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062869
Kyrie's death in episode 1 and 2 is completely confirmed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062869
How would Kyrie inherit Kinzo's name, though? She's not an Ushiromiya, so the only way would be to find the gold, which would be a huge event. And if she did find the gold, there would be no reason for her to dick around at the family meeting, siphoning money from stupid ass Krauss.

[Anonymous No.]

Hell yes theorycrafting.

Keep at it.

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/

What do you think of the animu only clues Ryukishi had said existed?

He said they had as much merit as the game's clues as far as solving the mystery, only thing I can note is that Kanon is tall as shit in the anime for some reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062881
There better be some game breaking clues in that shit, I can't even bring myself to watch the last three episodes, it was just so bland.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062878
She didn't really get his name, she was simply the acting culprit and the acting culprit was depicted as Kinzo. Perhaps the Kinzo everyone recognized was actually his corpse? The parents were the most direct on the case of Kinzo's death in episode 4, maybe they managed to force Natsuhi and Krauss to admit it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062875
Nothing in Episode 1 can be confirmed because there was no red. Episode 2, the red was used sparsely, and nobody in the chapel's deaths were confirmed with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062881
Kanon's the same height as Shannon.

Lots of shit in the anime is changed. If the mystery is still solvable even with those changes, then anything that is changed is irrelevant. There are a lot of things like that, I'm sure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062881
Wasn't the most important thing shown in the anime the fact that Sakutarou wasn't an original?

Then again, I stopped watching after episode 5 because it got boring/I fell behind and hate catching up/shit made me rage.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062875
The episode 1 corpse was actually Kyrie, but the Kyrie on the island we know is actually Kasumi acting her role after killing her.

The episode 2 corpse is the same.

[Anonymous No.]

Wait a second, now that I think about it. Didn't Ryukishi07 say he picked Beato's actor himself? What was the reason again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062895
The bodies in the shed, those that are unidentifiable like Kyrie, were identified with red text later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062881
no, thta was just DEEN being DEEN with proportions

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062903
No fuck you, Kasumi is just another personality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062903
No body trick, like stated by Beatrice.
And you have to get around the limited number of people in red.

[Anonymous No.]

>Battler fears falling
>19 years ago baby fell on cliff
Is this broccoli and cauliflower again??

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062895
Death were confirmed in red in episode 2.
Use this:
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062914
at least sounds like that, but he afraid of falling from the vechiles

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062913
>No body trick, like stated by Beatrice.
No body double trick, because the corpse was really Kyrie, it's not a trick. The trick is who the living Kyrie actually is.
>And you have to get around the limited number of people in red.
No, because Kyrie died before the game began, a dead person doesn't count as a person on the island, just like Kinzo's corpse doesn't count.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062918
>>4062914
Don't forget Asumu had the same fear.
So Asumu was the servant who fel from cliff with Battler.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062922
According to Kyrie, Asumu's fear of vehicles was faked. Helpless moe to seduce Rudolf.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062922
Wrooooooooooong.Asumu like to feign that fear according to Kyrie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062916
Where? The only red text that says anything about people in the chapel being dead was "Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door "

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062920
Nevermind the red dead, Kyrie's simple presence is stated in red several time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062931
What governs names in the red? Couldn't Kasumi be Kyrie in the red because she is only known as Kyrie on the gameboard?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062928
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062925
>>4062926
She seem sincere when she stated this? I can never bring myself to trust Kyrie for some reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062913
People can enter the island after the game has begun, after murders have already lowered the number of people on the island. The number of people stays the same. Nothing has been said that the number of people on the game board cannot increase.

Erika proves that it is possible (though dangerous) to get on Rokkenjima after the typhoon hits.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062937
She was only telling Jessica, and at the same time she confessed she would have killed Asumu if she hadn't died. I think she was being honest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062933
Yeah and therefore, what would be the basis of "Kyrie is alive" and "Kyrie is dead"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062940
Erika is a chinaman, the rules don't apply to her in the first place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062940
Erika's presence was completely statified in red, several time as an exception.
You can't enter the island during the typhoon.

And episode 6 disprove it anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062944
It could refer to either Kyrie or Kasumi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062935
Oh hell, I forgot that the chapel murders were covered in Episode 4.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062940

In addition to this, the boat captain is a pretty high tier sailor, considering that he has a tricked out boat and participates in boat races. His seamanship might be enough to tough out the storm.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062948
How could Kasumi inherit Kyrie's name?
How did she bring the body?
The Kyrie we see on the island is considered as Kyrie from the beginning to the end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062950
And in episode 4, doesn't he regret not going to pick them up despite the typhoon, or something? Maybe he could be convinced to take it out pretty easily.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062945
>>4062947
Regardless of whether Erika counts, the point stands.

And I'd like to see where in Episode 6 it says that.

[Anonymous No.]

Funny


Gold Truth:
-by one the BEatos: Magic created the golden petal inside the cup. It is wonderful magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062955
17 people on the island, including Erika.
And it was stated during the second day, well after the murders started.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062953
I'll drop it. I don't seriously believe in that theory, anyway.
Alternative: in episode 1, the thing in the shed wasn't a corpse at all. It was some pile of meat and perhaps remains from the other corpses that was made to look like Kyrie. Since it's not a corpse, "the identities of unidentified corpses are confirmed" does not apply to it. In episode 2 she was really dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062926
>>4062925
Kyrie sounds like George.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062959
The identity of those 17 people is never elaborated on. It's never specified that they are the same 17 people through out the entire game.

And again, show a screenshot or something that says otherwise, or the point remains valid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062945
>Erika is a chinaman, the rules don't apply to her in the first place.
Says who? It's not that the rules do not apply to Erika - the rules are edited to fit Erika. In Umineko's Knox rules, there is no Chinaman rule. Episode 5 is "missing number."

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062945
>Erika is a chinaman, the rules don't apply to her in the first place.
Says who? It's not that the rules do not apply to Erika - the rules are edited to fit Erika. In Umineko's Knox rules, there is no Chinaman rule. Rule 5 is "missing number."

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062959
Obviously, after the rest of the people on the island found out Erika chopped off their family members' heads, they pitched that bitch off the island into the typhoon waters, 17 people.

Then they all exploded.

[Anonymous No.]

People coming onto the island during a raging typhoon like fucking Navy Seals would make me rage as much as Shkannontrice, I'm so happy Ryukishi destroyed all the goddamn reasonable theories.

[Anonymous No.]

Didn't R07 say the official manga also has some very important clues?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062975
What other significance would the long-running multi-episode setup for a hidden harbor have to the larger plot?

[Anonymous No.]

Let's assume that boat docked on the second harbour, if person is on the boat does he/she count to the number?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062984
So we get another Yamainu, can't rage hard enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062982

Manga readers:

You are now shitting bricks at the part where it shows Bern and Lambda sketches in Maria's notepad long before they appear in the story proper.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062967
The presence of the 17/18 is specified, through red text, though.
Or do you believe the culprit somehow threw some corpses outside the island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062989
A contrived plot device is superior to destroying the characters, at least, I think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062975
Speaking of the intensity of the typhoon... it doesn't look like it's that intense. People keep walking outside often without going "Oh shit, this wind is pretty bad." They usually just mention the rain as being pretty bad.

The captain even says that he could have gone into it. It can't be that bad of a storm. Strong enough to cut off communication and most transportation, yeah, but if someone is dedicated enough, I think they could handle it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062962
No body trick stated in red.
Can't be a fake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062993
Corpses stop counting as people.

See Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062993
Stop being stupid, corpses don't count as people on the island. Otherwise it would be impossible to lower the number by 1 when Kinzo's corpse is there. They don't need to throw corpses off. They just need to kill them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062994
You drive a hard bargain... Contrived plot device or contrived plot device plus the destruction of the characters.

Lesser evil I suppose.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062998
"No body double tricks", you mean. I think you're meaning far too liberal with that line. It was in response to Battler claiming it was someone else entirely, not that it wasn't a corpse at all. Usually the problem people have with solving Umineko is being too literal with the red. In fact, if you're extremely literal with the red, the game, as it is right now, is not solvable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063004
Exactly, my friend. Exactly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062999
The red text apply during the 2 days.
At the time of the red text of episode 6, lots of people died and were therefore "corpses".

Do you believe that a secret organisation came on the island with the same number of people as these corpses?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063002
Stated in red, there's 17 people on the island.
Stated in red before, at least 5 people died, Eva, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi and Kyrie.

Therefore 5 outsiders had to come, that's your theory?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063010
Isn't it usually "There are no more than X people"? The original Kinzo was dead all along allowed for a Chinaman X, even though his 6 toed corpse was present.

[Anonymous No.]

Corpses count as people if they died during the game.
If they died before the game started, they don't count as people (see Kinzo).

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063010
5 or 6 highly trained hitmen, assassins, and mercs is more than enough to wipe out an island of 11 civilians who can barely defend themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063015
Well, technically, four outsiders, if we're including Erika, but...

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063020
No goddamnit. No more Lost.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063019
There's no proof they don't stop counting if they die after the game. There's also no proof they do stop counting. Either theory is valid. The line is never "There are X people on the island." It is always "There are no more than X people".

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063019
That's never been stated as a rule.

People are people. Corpses are corpses. Corpses are not people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062990
OMFG is that really true?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063033
Knox #9

[Anonymous No.]

>Most viable theories:
>Shannon having more personalities than people on the fucking island
>Battalion arriving on the island to kill everyone, Solid Snake style
Brb, killing myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063028
"So, I've been watching these TV programs from America lately, and I was thinking..."

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063030
then in ep2, as most people suspected, essica isn't really dead, right? she does count as epople, but corpses shouldn't be included and Beato likes to mislead people

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063029
Ep6
There are exactly 17 people on the island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063038
Pick your poison.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063047
Well, let's be precise. It's not "exactly 17 people." It's just "17 people."

[Anonymous No.]

>Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
In red. If we assume "Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" means "The corpses in the shed were certainly Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, Shannon and Rudolf" then the logic is broken. "There are no unidentified corpses" does not lead to that definition. Therefore, it's "no body double tricks exist" is simply reaffirming the previous line - none of those unidentified corpses are anyone else. Their identities are confirmed.

It's because "therefore" is in red. If it wasn't, it would be valid. But because it is, the second line is merely a logical extension of the first line. Therefore, you can disregard "no body double tricks exist" and only consider "Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed.". Therefore, if one of those things in the shed wasn't a corpse, this red doesn't apply.

With merely the word "therefore," this level of reasoning is possible for anon. How's that, everyone?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063020
Would be awesome.
But the murderer has to be one of the people introduced in the beginning, you know Knox and all.

[Anonymous No.]

Amakusa Juuza is also a suspicious character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063047
At what point in time is that said?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063056
What if the murderer was commanding those people, ala Takano?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063054
Beatrice only identify the unidentified corpses, and since she talk in red, she can't lie.

For the corpses that were identified by humans, they can lie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063062
And the first scene with Kyrie in Ep5 showed us that she has some pretty shady connections...

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063056
Murderer is allowed to have accomplices and assistance. But the burden of the crime, and all murders, must rest solely with one individual.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063062
Then this is a horribly done Higurashi.

Which is amusing in its own right, since the original is better than the copy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4062881
>What do you think of the animu only clues Ryukishi had said existed?
When Ange looks at the topography map for Rokkenjima, the area where the mansion/guesthouse/chapel should be is marked with the same shade as the beach, indicating that it's the same height above sea level.

And yet, the mansion is supposedly an uphill climb.

GEE, I WONDER WHY?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063072
Better than a horribly done Nasu work.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063056
Kyrie.

She's using the same goons that Kasumi uses in 1998. Maybe not the exact same ones, but they come from the same organization. They're clearly able to get on Rokkenjima, they've got weapons, and they follow orders to kill.

[Anonymous No.]

I hope to god you guys aren't serious there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063084
Serious about what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063079
We can also maybe think of Hideyoshi, who works closely with Okonogi who has enough connections to hire guys like Amakusa.

[Anonymous No.]

Right now; people shooting down another Van Dine's commandment, i wouldn't put it past Ryu07

[Anonymous No.]

Even Higurashi had a few hints about Yamainu.
Nothing in Umineko points to a commando of 5 men.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063061
At the end of the episode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063085
Probably about the whole CRACK COMMANDO UNIT landing on Rokkenjima to kill everyone.

The A-Team confirmed for murderers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063086
Jolly middle-aged fat man as culprit? Eh... Well, he was the first to suspect Kinzo's status and his obsession with Japanese military history is a little... Nah, come on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063091
Did you forget the whole 1998 sequence about Ange running away from the black suits?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063099
not even Ryu would put Hideyoshi as the murderer, it's just stupid

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063101
Which has nothing to do with 1986 Rokkenjima.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063101
We could also read scenes like Rosa vs the goats as Rosa facing down some goons...

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063105
If you told me just one episode ago that Shannon was the murderer, without all the other bullcrap, I would've thought that was crazy too. I just don't know anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063111
So the single mother fashion designer fucks up some hitmen all on her own.

You're making it very difficult for me to decide which theory I hate more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063106
What? That's not the point, the point is that the Sumadera family has some muscles to do their grunt work for them, and this was revealed in Episode 4.

[Anonymous No.]

Mystery where the culprits are some hired henchmen?
Disappointment.

[Anonymous No.]

It's not even mysterious murderer x, it's 5 mysterious murderer x.

>>4063111
The goats barely kill anyone.
Also goats = fire, explosion radius.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063119
Hired goons don't commit murders. They set up the bomb.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063111
So Goat kun was a lonely mercenary and Krauss punched his lights out, and Virgilia is the commander, egging her brute?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063114
Shannon was an OBVIOUS accomplice, like Kanon

also anyone start a new thread, this is going right to page 10

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063119
>Disappointment.

Understatement of the year after Ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063116
Which once again has nothing to do with 1986 Rokkenjima considering there is no clues whatsoever that could point to a possible commando.
None, at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063128
But a redrummer?

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063138
NO end of the thing, + he dies in ep1 and 2 quite early, you could say the same of ep4 if it was clear the order of deaths
If Hideyoshi is the culprit, it'd quite a let down because of lack of hints and foreshadowing

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063137
They get onto Rokkenjima secretly to kill Ange. They got on somehow, they planned to get off somehow.

Same way they got on and off the island in 1986.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063038
Let me join you. This whole thing has gone to hell.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063147
Isn't there a Knox rule that they must be introduced early in the story? These assholes were introduced in EP4, which is like halfway through.

Although I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi to ignore his own fucking plot device.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063152
The culprit has to be introduced early. Which they have been (Kyrie). The tools of the culprit do not have to be introduced until later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063152
Yeah, there was a rule as well about not having as culprits characters whose thoughts we've been allowed to follow...

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063131
Oh shut up, it's not that bad. Why the hell would you expect a man who has just lost the love of his life to man the fuck up suddenly when he has shown absolutely no indication of having the capability to do so for any prolonged period of time?

As for the new characters and such, you get used to them. The exact same complaints were leveled against episode 5, and frankly, I am sick of all this whining.

[Anonymous No.]

>>4063234
I lol'd at first, since I read the first part thinking you were referring to Ryukishi, not Battler.

And really, love of his life? He barely even knew Beatrice, aside from not existing. I'm all for shipping the two, but let's not go crazy here.