/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Was touhou’s decline preventable? I feel that it had an upswing in popularity around 2016/17 but then it fell sharply in 2018/19 for some reason. Could Touhou have kept its momentum?

[Anonymous No.]

It never deserved its popularity. It's a mediocre unfun game propped up entirely by secondaries, and ZUN doesn't even care about his characters or the lore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Touhou's apex was 2010, if anything it's surprising it's still somewhat popular. Posers, phonies and frauds come and got but the real core fans ain't going anywhere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Why would Touhou be different from any other series to have ever existed?
Legitimately asking you OP because your question flies in the face of the natural flow of ideas, fads, and culture itself over time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
This

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
ask the mountain of rangebans what happened in 2018
4chan split to 4channel and entire isp ranges were blocked from posting. it slowed the board down to a crawl. even moreso when people had to change all of their filters just to get it to work.
that and the fact that you would be banned for even the smallest shit around then.
I vaguely remember being banned from a post made long after the thread archived.

[Anonymous No.]

No shame in being a secondary. Proud to be one!

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou has not declined, the brand had its peak long ago and now it has stabilized. There is still a strong niche that constantly posts about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
I only played through it in the past few months and had a good enough time. Caring about characters or lore in a videogame to any extent is dumb as hell especially when the whole thing isnt supposed to be taken seriously like this isnt

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is more popular in the west than ever now, it is just /jp/ that has declined.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094394
this
i could close this tab and look up currently active communities and probably find at least 5 or more right now, but it's at the cost of being locked behind social media like d*cksw*rd
to have good discussion here, you need to partake in ancient prayers first to guarantee a normal fucking thread

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
2hu started unreclining recently, especially in the west(not really a positive thing but whatever). 2hu is trending on tw*tter every other week, only genchink gets more chicken scratches on pixiv. Touhou doesn't get number 1s on comikets, but don't forget that last year it had 2 reitaisais + kouroumu, each had more circles than highest franchise on 99 comiket

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094394
Is the decline of /jp/ preventable I don't want you guys to go

[Anonymous No.]

>>39095068
Why not. Just make good threads, posts, etc. Of course that will require you to put in effort, something most lazy needs don't want to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094047
something something youre the reason videogames don't progress as an artform

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
sad but true, I also can't think of anything else that's so inflated to be more than it is by it's fans

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
butthurt secondary can't clear any games and blames it on the game by calling it "mediocre unfun"

[Anonymous No.]

>>39095771
Well maybe he just doesn't like the game? You don't always have to be bad at it to not like it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094503
yeah
Jp wouldnt be as dead if people here didnt go into a mass report inducing rage over the pettiest shit

>>39095203
Anon you seem to be one of those people who thinks that in order to advance videogames must attempt to imitate literature. Some of them can go for that if that is what the developer wants to make. You can have walking simulators, visual novels, adventure games, etc who will be about the plot and worldbuilding. However videogames are not really books or movies since they have gameplay which sets them apart. A game does not need to be "deep" or to have the developer autisticly obsess over its world to have merit.
The story of something as stupid in premise as a game where the protagonist is a flying shrine maiden dodging bullets does not matter. Inconsistencies in characters who likewise if we are being frank dont really matter since they're created to be stage bossess or the lore that also exists just to justify whatever is the theme of the current title is irrelevant. You dont boot this up to read about Reimu's tax policy. Why did this make you upset? What do you consider a good game, or one that pushes the medium or whatever you were going for?

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
>ZUN doesn't even care about his characters or the lore
At the same time that I agree, I don't think he is wrong. This franchise would be shit if he decided to develop everything "correctly" and deeply.
Touhou is made for the community to develop. I don't think this was the initial plan, but at some point, ZUN realized that doing so was much easier, while also being beneficial to the franchise.
So, yeah, I think he "doesn't care", but not because he doesn't like the characters, the lore or isn't grateful for the franchise's success, but he's simply not stupid to change what obviously made the franchise go this far.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't like what happened with th. I liked the games foremost. All the memes, yukkuri, lore, music and generally Fan-made stuff were very secondary for me. I've ran into too many people who "loved touhou music" without ever playing a single second of the games, maybe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39095811
then he can't claim that its popularity was never deserved. apparently enough people enjoyed it for it to gain a following.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
just don't be shit at the game and you will have fun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
It's not really on decline but sure sucks to be having a handful of secondaries gachafags

[Anonymous No.]

>>39098166
The thing with touhou is that, with the state of the IP itself being pretty much free for use, a lot of people tend to get into it from fan works instead of the bullet hells. People even get into it from just the music. I think the most attractive thing about touhou is the license and the rights of the IP above anything else

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
it's not on the decline at all wtf are you talking about, it arguably had a pretty big popularity spike the past couple years

[Anonymous No.]

Turbofags and shmupfags can't accept the fact secondaries are what makes a series stays relevant and alive

[Anonymous No.]

>>39099866
what about fightanfags

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Why do people care about popularity?
Seriously? How is your enjoyment affected by a bunch of retarded children also enjoying your favorite thing?

[Anonymous No.]

It picked up again in 2020 and 2021

[Anonymous No.]

>>39100771
It's not so much popularity but shifting demographics. The people who were fans fifteen years ago are no longer the majority, they became normalfags too busy to engage with it much anymore or roped themselves to Gensokyo.
Even ZUN himself has more important things to worry about like his family unlike ten years ago.
That and the internet shrinking was a big blow to fan communities. places like Discord and Twitter have centralized many fandoms, and honestly I can't be fucked to join those places when imageboards and forums were serviceable.
Sadly even here on /jp/ it's clear that people like me are getting phased out, but that's life I suppose.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39100888
Everything's getting sterilized for normalfag consumption, you're a retard if you think this is a touhou only thing. Welcome to otaku "culture" in 2022.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39100771
less people less fanworks

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
>>39087067
>>39094047
>>39095771
>>39098769
>>39099866
Top down shooters are cancer and Touhou would be better if it were a JRPG.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
it feels like 2020/2021 fumos blew up and a bunch of people on twitter/youtube/etc. started getting into the series cuz of meme content essentially

there's absolutely a growing community still but it might not be the people you want to be part of the fanbase. but for every batch of dumb kids that gets exposed to the fanbase, a couple genuine fans stick around

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101148
JRPGs are for chickenshits who want to be told they're a hero.

Shmups are for real men with iron will, determination and ability.

Sorry you got filtered by normal mode.

[Anonymous No.]

i want big mofu milkers

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
>>39097866
Saying ZUN doesn't care about his characters is so incorrect. He may have put more effort into some of them rather than others, but he developed many of them so heavily in his manga. I think ZUN had a vision and he successfully made it come to fruition. He doesn't need to do anything else because he's content with how his project is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39099922
They have their own solid and rollback community, anon. They're fine as they are right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
>and ZUN doesn't even care about his characters or the lore.

If this were true he wouldn't spend more and more time fleshing them and Gensokyo out as time goes on. ZUN is if anything putting more and more effort into worldbuilding and character writing with each further year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101148
lolno

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101148
Good heavens no, one of the worst genres around, made for storyfag slobs. Not counting dungeon crawlers and (non fire emblem) srpgs
Touhou would not work nearly as well as anything other than what it is and you would know if you read anything from the music rooms in the games

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101148
Based, FF but Touhou would be the shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39097866
A shame that all of the development of the Touhou fanbase is either boring and repetitive memes or badly misunderstanding what little lore there is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39099866
Shit reply by a shitty phoneposter

[Anonymous No.]

>>39121970
seethe, dilate, cope

[Anonymous No.]

>>39126368
Dude!!! Wtf! You can't say those words here!

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101414
>it feels like 2020/2021 fumos blew up and a bunch of people on twitter/youtube/etc. started getting into the series cuz of meme content essentially
All these phonies already moved on to the next fad, look at how slow is /fumo/ compared to late 2020. Even Troonmemey is already latching onto vt*bers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39131371
Hope the original fumo fans get to enjoy their hobby again, sort of
Sadly the fucked prices are here to stay...

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Yes. Somewhat. Kinda.
I won't elaborate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39144304
Then why even bother posting in the thread?

[Anonymous No.]

>>39131371
like i said:
>but for every batch of dumb kids that gets exposed to the fanbase, a couple genuine fans stick around

it still resulted in the community growing. maybe i'm just too optimistic. to be honest though that optimism helps, spreading the notion that a community is dead only turns off new people from joining

[Anonymous No.]

>>39102539
I wish AoCF had good netcode on pc. Miss playing that with people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39144309
Yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39145200
It would be nice to play with /jp/ every now and then, right? There used to be threads for SWR and Hisoutensoku

[Anonymous No.]

>>39147440
I've been learning soku lately. I'd play some with /jp/ even if I still suck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39147440
Some anon hosted a GTA and Doom multiplayer session for /jp/ back in Christmas and New year's eve. We can always make a new one granted it's playable and enjoyable for most.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39153713
Yeah, I remembered those servers. Other than GTA SA and Doom, are there any other games /jp/ can have fun playing together?

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094394
Next thing you know it becomes more popular in third world countries than in Japan

[Anonymous No.]

>>39155702
Flockmod, while not exactly a game, is something that happens every so often.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39094503
>>39094394
have you seen the replies to this thread or any other touhou thread on /jp/ these days, this place is a total fucking shithole
sadly /jp/ isnt a touhou containment board anymore, go literally anywhere else for touhou these days
randomly checked this board to see this thread and it's the same as it's been since the last time i checked i guess

[Anonymous No.]

i dont care about other peoples opinion on touhou, especially westerners. touhou still gets shit out of japan, doujins, art, video games, music and thats all that matters and thats all it should matter to you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39095078
What even is a good post about touhou

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
FPBP

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
>"hard game bad"

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
>"any minute now. we're 18 games in and at any moment the entire series will die, j-just watch, promise..."

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is way too popular in the west now. The amount of kids out there with their gay trans fumo memes is unbelievable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39147440
>There used to be threads for SWR and Hisoutensoku
/vm/ has threads for these all the time

[Anonymous No.]

>>39097866
If touhou is for the community to develop then why has ZUN pushed more to make his mangas? Which clearly not only flesh out the characters but also point us towards how the world is and the events that they face; mundane or not.

We wouldn't have known that Reimoo is apparently someone who enjoys books as much as we wouldn't have known that Satori is a dumb bitch for having walked in the woods alone.

Explain WHH and CDS, and LE and-

[Anonymous No.]

>>39105538
Ok but explain why the genre is bad and what is a storyfag slob

[Anonymous No.]

>>39159623
Only creativity and hilarity can come from that

[Anonymous No.]

I’ve been posting on 4chan since the first habbo raids. I always saw Touhou posting but never got into it. It wasn’t until I started playing Lost World that I saw the awesomeness of this franchise. I think it’s more popular then ever and probably doing the best financially it’s ever been doing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39174716
>I think it’s more popular then ever
No way, it was a whole different level 10 years ago.
>and probably doing the best financially it’s ever been doing.
This is probably true, ZUN is finally raking the cash with steam sales and gacha fees.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39174716
I guess the draconian COVID lockdowns in Japan finally changed ZUN

[Anonymous No.]

What is Touhou's popularity comparable to in the west? I was always amazed at how popular it seemed to be in Japan, but I never got a gauge on how mainstream it was over there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39153713
I hope it comes back in late April, like last year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101148
Even though this post is a bait, you still need to kill yourself because only mentally ill subhuman could come up with statement like this, even if ironically.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39173223
ZUN is reaching an age where he needs to start thinking about retirement, anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
I was here when threads like these were posted in 2013 when everyone was complaining about kancolle.
touhou isn't in decline. its a foundation of otaku culture (assuming that otaku culture is defined as what is relevant to comiket) There are new fads and series, but nothing will push touhou out of the otaku relevance sphere until ZUN stops making games. And even then, I'm sure goodsmile et al will milk it for years after. Its the perfect franchise for otaku and the doujin world because of its open-endedness, huge amount of characters, and generally just a bunch of stuff you can do with it. Its better to think of touhou as something akin to vocaloid, rather than as another multimedia game franchise

[Anonymous No.]

>>39181075
Touhou has been inclining recently.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39177681
Retiring from Touhou, you mean? I remember he said in an interview that he would be doing Touhou forever until the day he dies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39175150
its been slowly getting more popular, but thats the problem.
touhou has been starting to touch the western mainstream. once it does enter the mainstream there wont be any escaping the shit thats to follow.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39181524
tranny drama has already started, just wait till gaming "journalists" hone in on it

[Anonymous No.]

>>39181524
>its been slowly getting more popular
I feel it's the opposite. 2hu was always niche in the west, but it was a recognizable franchise. Nowadays your average normalfag animefag doesn't know who Cirno is.

[Anonymous No.]

A whole generation of children in Japan only know about Touhou from yukkuri pubg videos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39160363
>go literally anywhere else for touhou these days
Like where? This place is still the only place where you can (rarely) have actual discussion of the series.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39192285
I don’t think they’ll touch it. Game journos hate anything Japanese (just look at all the vitriol Elden Ring got from Cali devs)
If a game using Western-looking designs makes them turn up their noses, imagine one full of anime, female-only designs. Plus, it’s too hard for them

[Anonymous No.]

how will kazookeks recover bros?

[Anonymous No.]

>>39199463
FUCK WRONG THREAD

[Anonymous No.]

>>39198022
Game journalist's brains would go into processing deadlock trying to apply their logic to series where most of characters are femine girls and even more tomboyish looking ones are still treated as girls without fuss.

The amoung of girls in Touhou is perfect for scarying them off, because their stupid narratives about female characters require either:
1. Men, so they can be blamed, act as contrast, get trashed by their "badass" girls. And often drag down series into romance slog.
2. Lesbians, so they can be used to for romance, political brownie points and to act as masculine stereotypes.
3. Modern gender politics, of which the series stays clear. Even if they grasp at straws, like male incarnations of Child of Miare (which are suggested in cannon bu choice of the original japanese pronouns) they still can't really find characters that obsessed with gender, it's role in society or being tainted by self loathing typical for western talk about human body.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
touhou literally boomed in popularity last year
if it was for the better depends on who you ask

[Anonymous No.]

>>39176677
Mald

[Anonymous No.]

>>39200040
your talk is invalid via Rinnosuke, ReiMarisa, RenMaribel, and (though fantasized) Toyosatomimi No Miko

[Anonymous No.]

>>39200040
SJWs already tried touching it, but they continue fail to dent it. Wasn't like a couple of weeks ago that bunch of them were whining about Loli Junko popping up in LW?

Then we have that Touhou is one of those rare female focused franchises that is not sexualized in canon works, actually successful franchise, and full of lesbian bait for them to enjoy. It's somehow more attractive to SJWs than pandering series like fucking Guardian Spice.

Touhou has become some huge amorphous blob that is practically impossible to kill despite now being full of porn doujins, all sort of dumb memes, old 4chanfags, edgy lorefags, and even children with the Fumo and LW fandom.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39200071
Well, the point still stands. Rinnosuke is basically only dude with serious plot impact, shipping doesn't equan lesbian baiting and Miko doesn't really count for modern identity politics just because she's prince (I'm not Anglophone, so I don't get the fuss about using male noble titles for female rulers)

>>39202469
Exactly, Touhou is already beyond their grasp. The very yuri shippers of the franchise would eat them alive if their crap interfered with all the crazy doujins like the Sechuan Girl (yuri x man eating monster x chinese cooking).

[Anonymous No.]

I feel like Touhou is increasing or at a point where it is gaining the same amount of fans as its losing in the western fanbase. For Japan I think it's dying, despite its efforts. Danmaku Kagura was apparently a success but its player numbers are dropping every week, yukkuri commentary videos may give the sense of popularity but they don't pull as many fans as people think, and when I went to Japan during the Summer of 2021 I could not find anything Touhou related bar a Lost World keychain gacha, and a single shop in Akihabara. It's most certainly going to stay for a long time but it's definitely dying unless something big pulls in a shitton of people over there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39204287
The Lost Word gacha revived Touhou for a while but it's dying now and soon it will join the other gacha that died in less than a year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39204287
>>39204419

Franckly, does Touhou need to stay in mainstream's center of attention? It started with otakus and doujins, and it will be kept alive by them for next decades.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
I hate Americans' line-go-up mentality. Popularity doesn't need to increase at all times. The Touhou fanbase is still active with dozens of doujin circles in JP. Places to talk about Touhou even in the West (like /jp/) are still active. It still gets a shitton of new fanart. If you care about the "decline" you have mental problems.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39101467
real men play arcade games and not the casual shit that is touhou

[Anonymous No.]

>>39207390
have you read 90% of the threads on /jp/, not exactly the hangout for sane individuals

For the record though, nothing good lasts forever so instead of being all doom and gloom about something that hasn't happened yet, we should enjoy what we have now

[Anonymous No.]

God this" Touhou is dying" is such a meme I am surprised we never learn from it.

If Touhou was today like it was in 2015/16 then we would have declared it dead already. I guess doomposters have nothing better to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39204419
thank fuck that its dying

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
>but then it fell sharply in 2018/19 for some reason.
>for some reason
/vg/. /vg/ is the void that drains /jp/ and /jp/ content of all of its life.
/jp/ content ends up on /vg/. /vg/ is extremely insular and the topics end up more or less trapped there. And then to make matters worse, discord always saps what has already ended up trapped at /vg/, and thus deleting the topics from the internet even further.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39200040
>2. Lesbians, so they can be used to for romance, political brownie points and to act as masculine stereotypes.
personally, i think you are giving too much sanity to the credit of yurifags.
they will take ANY positive relation and twist it into
>"hEEeEeEeEe ho they do the SEGGS"

[Anonymous No.]

It's important to remember that nothing lasts forever. If Touhou "dies" it's simply means it's time in relevancy is over and something else will eventually take its place
Stop trying to recreate the past, you'll never be happy with the results
t. Obsessed with 2000s culture and arcades

[Anonymous No.]

>>39214749
Yeah, I am probably giving yurifucks to much credit. I mean, these dudes put on doujins with such lines like "Your jar is waiting for my pickle" for lesbian sex. They also created such masterpieces of fuckery like "Sechuan Girl" which obviously includes girl getting seasoned to taste with Sechuan peppers to make her meat tastier.

Yurifucks will start their shit even if it shouldn't be possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
>I feel that it had an upswing in popularity around 2016/17 but then it fell sharply in 2018/19
I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. Anyway, shit thread with shit users

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
why are you here

[Anonymous No.]

>>39105538
>non fire emblem
filtered

[Anonymous No.]

i am a secondary
i love touhou
and cirno

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007

[Anonymous No.]

the main games suck
ZUN is a sellout to consoomerbait g*chas <img class="xae" data-xae width="32" height="32" src="https://s.4cdn.org/image/emotes/d3c674ba_monkaHmm.png">
i like tasofro stuff better screw being a primary <img class="xae" data-xae width="41" height="32" src="https://s.4cdn.org/image/emotes/72694e0e_desusmirk.png">
i like クッキー <img class="xae" data-xae width="32" height="32" src="https://s.4cdn.org/image/emotes/57b01648_nepSmug.png">

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>39251098
>not one, not two, not tree but FIVE Touhou g*chas exist

ZUN BETRAYED US!!!!! AGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *starts trashing my Touhou themed room*

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Nothing keeps its momentum

[Anonymous No.]

>>39251296
Who are you quoting? <img class="xae" data-xae width="32" height="32" src="https://s.4cdn.org/image/emotes/a6955123_yaranaika.png">

[Anonymous No.]

>>39174716
>It wasn’t until I started playing Lost World that I saw the awesomeness of this franchise.
I'm currious, what in Lost Word made you appreciate the series? The characters, the world, the music? All of those maybe?

[Anonymous No.]

>>39261558
:MarisaFace: :MarisaFace: :MarisaFace:

[Anonymous No.]

>>39251334
This

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Tried the games, I suck at them but I don't hate them, they're just not for me.
Cute girls in frilly hats with bangin' tunes and being completely open to fan material, I can see why it got popular, although I'm not sure anyone could have predicted just how big the fan scene got.
With 99% of touhou content being fan material it isn't surprising for newcomers to have never played the official games or, honestly, even know they exist or aren't also fan games.

Personally I never got very invested in touhou.
But the fanbase sure knows how to crank out 10/10 porn of it, sweet buddha.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39204774
I just wish to see some goods at BookOff every now and again instead of having to go to Reitaisai or Comiket to get good items (which I cannot go to) or AniMate for the shitty Lost Word items.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39271433
Merch is cool and all, but when I see stuff like that Touhou x Sanrio merch it feels like it's soulless merch that's just being made because it'll sell, and not because anyone really wanted it to exist, if that makes any sense. Maybe I'm just wrong though and this is exactly what some people wanted, because someone's gotta be buying all that Hello Kitty stuff in the first place

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
no

[Anonymous No.]

One thing for certain that touhou on pixiv literally probably has the most numbers I THINK I SAW 3 MILLION

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
culture is always constantly in shift, even more so internet culture, like >>39087509 said. I think the real miracle is that this strange one-man franchise with its anime girl mythology became entangled with internet culture to the extent where it's one of the most important landmarks of the early internet landscape.
What I'd be interested in is tracing what conventions for internet culture the touhou age established.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39194549
halo general discusses touhou all the time

[Anonymous No.]

>>39288176
Thanks mate. I'll check it out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087007
Touhou was never good.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39298154
Lie.
The true decline is self sabotage and arrogance.
It could have been better, but instead, most opted for pointless scrabbles and criticisms of things that were always present.

[Anonymous No.]

>decline
it's called healing

[Anonymous No.]

>>39087067
It's like you don't know that he's still writing supplementary materials for it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39311484
It's almost like he's just a shit talking bitch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39163830
Shoot em' ups have maybe a 15% variation between every game in the genre

[Anonymous No.]

>>39311484
Those "supplementary materials" have the depth of a one-season SoL. He's doing it for money, nothing more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39228257
This post, the thread.
Coming to theaters next summer, OP posts it again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>39324259
why wait until this retarded doom thread is dead when you can post another one that's three times as dogshit? >>39329531