Hey /jp/! Which one come first? egg or chicken?

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Anonymous Sat Dec 5 04:54:13 2009 No.3853564 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /jp/! Which one come first? egg or chicken?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 04:55:13 2009 No.3853567 The chicken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 04:58:13 2009 No.3853572 The egg, leaving the chicken EXTREMELY unsatisfied.

>>	eek !SYLPH2qXy2 Sat Dec 5 04:58:13 2009 No.3853574 dinosaurs laid eggs, so obviously the egg.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 04:58:13 2009 No.3853573 Everyone knows it was the chicken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 04:59:13 2009 No.3853577 If there is such a thing as the first chicken, it was once an egg. /thread

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:01:13 2009 No.3853580

The egg. Since the egg is a chicken egg as soon as it has something we would call a chicken in it, and genetic variation occurs post-parent, the first chicken's egg would have come out of something we wouldn't call a chicken; but since that egg contained what we would call a chicken, it must be the first chicken egg. As such, the egg came first, and came out of something that was not a chicken.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:02:13 2009 No.3853583

There is no clear delineation between chicken and reptiles.

There was a continuum of reptiles which eventually acquired more and more avian features. It could also be said thatn there was a continuum of proto-chickens which lost more and more of their reptile features.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:04:13 2009 No.3853588 >>3853580 That's not conceptually correct though. Going by your logic, what did this first chicken breed with to produce more chicken offsprings?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:05:13 2009 No.3853591 >>3853583 So my chicken sammich is actually a dinosaur sammich?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:07:13 2009 No.3853598 >>3853591 That's one way to look at it. Alternatively, your dinosaur sammich is actually a chicken sammich

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:07:13 2009 No.3853599

anyone who knows darwinian evolution knows that the first organism formed from a cluster of organic chemicals near volcanic vents deep in the earths sea. Then they started to evolve, cells grouped together to form masses like corals. Then there were the first plants. after that some groups of cells started to become more dominant, eating plants, these were animals. In prehistoric times, before humans a lot of these animals were dinosaurs. The first birds in the world were evolved from flying dinosaurs. Chickens evolved from dinosaurs.
The egg is a protective shell for the embryo of a chicken to develop. I say the egg came first, but then without the animals that evolved to become the chicken to reproduce themselves using eggs, chickens wouldn't exist. So for the chicken to be borne, the egg; for the egg to ever appear in the course of history, some ancestor of the chicken, or maybe you can call it the chicken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:08:13 2009 No.3853602 >>3853588 Obviously, the egg is that of a mutant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:08:13 2009 No.3853603 Chicken Ancestor ↓ Chicken ancestor with some chicken features ↓ Chicken ancestor with more chicken features ↓ Proto chicken ↓ represents an egg as you see, no matter how you look at it, the egg is first.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:09:13 2009 No.3853607 >Obviously, the egg is that of a mutant. What would you call this mutant? A chicken?

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:11:13 2009 No.3853610

>>3853599
Wrong, the egg came first, since the first chicken is actually some pre-chicken mutation.
The pre-chicken lets call it chicken 0.99 layed an egg from were the mutated/evolved pre-chicken (chicken 1.00) camed from.
So the chicken camed from an egg.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:11:13 2009 No.3853609 >>3853588 Probably whatever species it's parents were. And maybe too few of its traits held dominant, and the chicken disappeared for a few hundred years until another came along. Either way, the egg came first.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:12:13 2009 No.3853611 >>3853607 A pre-chicken, an ancestor with chicken-like features. Once the mutations reach a point where the animal fits the definition a chicken, it becomes the first chicken.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:12:13 2009 No.3853613

>>3853603
You're basically saying, it is possible for a very chicken like dinosaur to give birth to a generation of very dinosaur like chicken.

I'm saying, there's no clear distinction where you could rule that line, thus what comes first is a pointless question. Because dinosaur -> chicken does not come from a single event.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:14:13 2009 No.3853617

me again>>3853599
the word chicken is a very broad term, since it covers lots of different breeds of birds and animals. so this discussion is invalid since we cannot argue who exactly is the ancestor of the chicken, or maybe all organisms in the series of the evolution of the chicken are really subtle variations of the modern breed of birds known as the chicken

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:15:13 2009 No.3853620 >>3853613 It might be imposible to draw a line, but thats why we draw a theoretical one. Chiecken 0.99 and chicken 1.00 has proved to be the easyest way to explain it to my friends.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:15:13 2009 No.3853622 >>3853607 Chickendactyl.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:16:13 2009 No.3853623 >>3853613 Well, there had to be a first generation of pre-chicken capable of reproducing with modern chickens. Why not call that the first chicken?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:17:13 2009 No.3853628 >>3853620 Okay think about this: Chicken 0.99 is not a chicken, it's a dinosaur Chicken 1.0 is a chicken The egg that Chicken 0.99 laid will hatch into Chicken 1.0. Is this egg a dinosaur egg or a chicken egg?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:18:13 2009 No.3853629 this thread shows that everyone in 4chan and probably the world, including people in /jp/, love chickens

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:18:13 2009 No.3853630 Quetzalcoatl?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:19:13 2009 No.3853636 >>3853628 But it doesnt matter if its a chicken egg, it was still an egg that came before the chicken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:20:13 2009 No.3853640 1. I have a pile of sand 2. I take one grain of sand out of that pile 3. I still have a pile of sand, although minus one grain I repeat step 2, until I'm left with a single grain of sand where the pile was. At which point did the pile disappear?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:22:13 2009 No.3853643 >>3853636 >>3853580

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:24:13 2009 No.3853648 >>3853640 It depends if the second to last grain of sand was placed above the last one or not. If they are piled its a pile, if they aren't, its not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:24:13 2009 No.3853649 >>3853640 When it ceases to be a pile, a single unit can not be a pile by definition, therefore the last grain is when it stops becoming a pile.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:26:13 2009 No.3853654 >>3853648 >>3853649 So you're saying, two grains of sand, one on top of the other will count as "a pile" of sand?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:26:13 2009 No.3853656 >>3853649 You overlooked the fact that the last few ones might be placed at the exact same level, It would stop being a pile at that moment, since they aren't piled together.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:27:13 2009 No.3853660 >>3853654 yes, look up the definition of "pile"

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:28:13 2009 No.3853661 >>3853654 They are piled, so its a pile by definition. One grain of sand might still be a pile of sand molecules, but please, lets not go there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:28:13 2009 No.3853664 >>3853661 There is no such thing as a "sand" molecule. Sand can be made up of a variety of things.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:30:13 2009 No.3853672 >>3853664 sand is inorganic; chickens are organic it is pointless to compare both

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:31:13 2009 No.3853675 >>3853664 The thing we call sand its not actually just sand, its sand and crap, like broken shells, earth and shit. Especially on the beach, watch out were you step

>>	Shikieiki !!KvMSlptKvlj Sat Dec 5 05:31:13 2009 No.3853676 File: 291 KB, 616x462, Okuu_Hard_Boiled_Egg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrmXW3JHViw&fmt=18

>>	Shikieiki !!KvMSlptKvlj Sat Dec 5 05:35:13 2009 No.3853683 File: 389 KB, 675x1665, 1256907103795.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Also, obligatory for an eggs thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:36:13 2009 No.3853686 JAPIDEO GAMES

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Sat Dec 5 05:36:13 2009 No.3853688 File: 67 KB, 231x235, arc12.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3853676 Oh no, oh, crap, I'm gonna look at it and it's gonna be stuck in my head again NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>	Shikieiki !!KvMSlptKvlj Sat Dec 5 05:39:13 2009 No.3853692 File: 213 KB, 512x384, 1258310856636.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3853688 Boiled egg, boiled egg

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:39:13 2009 No.3853693

Chicken 0.99a gives lays a mutant egg
This egg hatches into Chicken 1.0, the first chicken.
There are no other Chicken 1.0 around so Chicken 1.0 breeds with Chicken 0.99b
Their offsprints are Chicken 0.995

Chicken 1.0 was the first, and the last chicken

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:39:13 2009 No.3853695 >>3853683 SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT SLUT

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:39:13 2009 No.3853696 >>3853676 Not metal. Sage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:42:13 2009 No.3853699 >>3853693 Might be, might not be, we'll never know, since its not just hereditary, but it involves mutation. There might have been another chicken 1.00 by chance, but most of them must have been 1.01 1.02 etc

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Sat Dec 5 05:43:13 2009 No.3853703 File: 65 KB, 159x283, FUCK.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3853692

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:43:13 2009 No.3853704 >>3853699 Yeah but, where did Chicken 1.01 and 1.02 came from? And what the hell is Chicken 1.02? A chicken that's more chicken than chicken?

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:58:13 2009 No.3853737
File: 64 KB, 473x700, Gallus gallus moensis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

First, you must define "chicken." Let's assume it's Gallus gallus domesticus. The subspecies is artificially derived from Gallus gallus. The problem of setting a clear transition point between the wild and domestic populations of any domesticated animal is in the parallel, variable and diverse evolution of numerous populations of the species. You would have had countless populations across the world at different stages of domestication.

Distinctions between species and subspecies are very, very difficult to characterize, as they're still able interbreed. The domestic chicken is only defined on a relative scale. The morphology between junglefowl and chickens is basically the same. Even species are somewhat arbitrarily differentiated. Do we call it a different species when it has different colors? When they're geologically separated? On the basis of genes? Or when they can't interbreed and produce viable offspring? The latter would be preferable, however, it's not the case in modern systematics.

It comes down to a matter of relative semantics. You're not going to find a definite transition point between junglefowl and chicken. Evolution has no definite steps, especially in the case of artificially induced evolution. It's a constant process. What was chicken 100 years ago is not exactly what chicken is now. We can only argue on the basis of contrived differences with ancestral species. This should be an argument far outside of genera, let alone species/subspecies. Take it to the level of superorders, in this case Neognathae, but then we fall outside of the semantic argument regarding the chicken. Sort of a pointless venture then.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 05:59:13 2009 No.3853741 Eggs came first. Dinosaurs.

>>	Suigin !YUsuiginy. Sat Dec 5 06:02:13 2009 No.3853747 egg

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:07:13 2009 No.3853755

>>3853737
Except no matter how you define 'chicken', the chicken still came from an egg that was most certainly a chicken egg because a chicken came out of it. That being the case, regardless of what the parents were, the genetic mutation that spawned the first chicken was first manifest in the first chicken egg.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:14:13 2009 No.3853769 >>3853755 yeah but what did the first chicken breed with to produce more chicken?

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:16:13 2009 No.3853770

>>3853755
However chicken as we know them form their eggs after embryo is formed so what will be the first chicken was still produced before its egg.

>>3853737
It's even worse when you take into account the fact one organism's genes can pass on to another even if one is a plant and the other's an animal via horizontal gene transfer. You can disregard that in eukaryotes, but bacteria do that all the time, to the point "species" almost has no meaning to them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:16:13 2009 No.3853771 File: 15 KB, 410x480, platone2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The chicken goddammit. The only purpose of the egg is to become a chicken, the first egg was created by the very first chicken in order to carry on his legacy.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:38:13 2009 No.3853854

>>3853769
Doesn't matter. You don't have to continue breeding chickens to be the first recognizable chicken.

>>3853770
>However chicken as we know them form their eggs after embryo is formed so what will be the first chicken was still produced before its egg.

Good point. Seeing as I'm the one who brought biology and genetics into this, I should've noticed that myself.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:46:13 2009 No.3853889
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>>3853755

There was no specific first chicken. It's a vague distinction. G. gallus domesticus is the result of a myriad of G. gallus mutants arising in separate populations in India, then breeding between themselves as they spread across the world (to different standards, no less).

If we want a clear distinction, we have to isolate a specific set of genes that we, for whatever reason, believe comprises chicken and only chicken. It will impose arbitrary distinctions again, though. Why this gene and not that one? What about this gene present in this chicken and not that chicken, even though they're the same species?

My point is, the grounds for arguing this are not relevant to evolution. It doesn't happen in a way that allows us to judge phylogenetic distinctions definitively, which is an essential part of the question.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:46:13 2009 No.3853890 >Serious discussion on which one come first? egg or chicken? I love you /jp/.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:49:13 2009 No.3853908 me again here>>3853599 >>3853617 hey >>3853889 that was what I was trying to point out anon

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:51:13 2009 No.3853918 >>3853854 >Good point. Seeing as I'm the one who brought biology and genetics into this, I should've noticed that myself. Female chickens still produce eggs in the same vein as humans do prior to forming a calcified protective shell.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:53:13 2009 No.3853927 >>3853908 me again >>3853918 asking whether the egg or chicken came first would then be like asking whether the human fetus or the human came first

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:58:13 2009 No.3853943
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>>3853927

These types of questions should really be reserved for processes with clear-cut stages. What came first, the Ford Model T or the Ford Model A? Maybe when chickens and humans become more machine than chicken or human, we can define the earliest technologically transcendent stage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 06:59:13 2009 No.3853949 File: 394 KB, 675x1665, 1250464964411.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3853683 better if you don't explain the joke

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:00:13 2009 No.3853954 >>3853927 More like the human or the filled human womb.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:07:13 2009 No.3853975

me again>>3853599
without the egg, the adult chicken would never have formed. Without the cluster of organic chemicals protected inside the egg shell, there would be no chicken, chicken wouldn't be able to reproduce, and we wouldn't be able to eat chicken everyday. /thread
However we cannot deny the fact that chickens evolved from a different number of species/animals before, notably flying dinosaurs, like Pterodactyl, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:11:13 2009 No.3853989 File: 64 KB, 560x400, 1221898957533.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3853949

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:16:13 2009 No.3854014 >>3853949 Dtb joke? oh comeon

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:18:13 2009 No.3854025
File: 75 KB, 630x769, 050125_dino_duck_02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3853975

>notably flying dinosaurs, like Pterodactyl, etc.

Pterodactyl was a flying reptile. Its kind was obliterated for eternity, leaving no modern relatives. Chickens are derived from theropod dinosaurs (more specifically, coelurosauria).

Fun fact: chicken ancestors coexisted with dinosaurs in the late Cretaceous. They were more relatives than ancestors, but it means the infraorder that contains chickens existed over 80 million years ago.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:23:13 2009 No.3854036 /jp/ - Eggs&Chickens/General

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:25:13 2009 No.3854041 Egg is first cooked for breakfast, the chicken is eaten for lunch and dinner.

>>	eek !SYLPH2qXy2 Sat Dec 5 07:25:13 2009 No.3854043 >>3854025 gives a new perspective to evolution and "everything tastes like chicken".

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 07:28:13 2009 No.3854050 File: 204 KB, 446x600, b47257ce68b197bd2fb780ff1ecc8975.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3854036 Chickens are always related. It feeds the world and all its lands.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 09:22:13 2009 No.3854382 The first chicken egg ever to be laid was laid by the first chicken in the world, of course. That creature had to go through evolution first, though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 09:24:13 2009 No.3854398 In an evolutionary sense, the egg came first. For a bird had to evolve into a chicken. and all birds lay eggs. In a pun sense, the chicken CAME first. DOHHH

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 10:37:13 2009 No.3854600 well, in this case, the atom

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 10:48:13 2009 No.3854624

The first? It's a trick question.

If I say chicken, you'll say the chicken hatched from the egg, so the egg came first.
If I say egg, you'll say the chicken laid the egg, so the chicken came first.

And then it goes full circle.

So I say this; there was no first. You can trace it infinitely back, and never find it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 10:53:13 2009 No.3854635 the chicken came first through evolution then chickens started laying eggs

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 10:56:13 2009 No.3854640 >>3854635 But the chicken had to come from an egg. Conversely, eggs can come from things that are NOT chickens.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 11:09:13 2009 No.3854682 /jp/ - Evolution/General Not that I disapprove. I like pseudo-intellectual discussions.

>>	:3~ !RAKiSUtaAA Sat Dec 5 11:17:13 2009 No.3854706 God made the chicken, which then laid cicken eggs. Simple as that.

>>	:3~ !RAKiSUtaAA Sat Dec 5 11:18:13 2009 No.3854710 >>3854706 >chicken

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 11:25:13 2009 No.3854745

Biologically speaking, the chicken came first before the egg (assuming the question is talking about chicken egg) since its impossible for a non-chicken to lay a chicken egg. The chicken, of course, was produced through evolution. Disregard God cuz [Evolution =/=God]

>>	五角场！？ Sat Dec 5 11:37:13 2009 No.3854795 >>3854706 I see you trollin'

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 13:55:13 2009 No.3855265 >>3854745 That the egg is a chicken egg is never specified. Eggs predate chickens by over 100 million years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 13:58:13 2009 No.3855273 >>3854745 You forget, a chicken can only be born out of a chicken's egg. This means that the chicken's egg HAD to come first.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 14:02:13 2009 No.3855285

>>3854745
>its impossible for a non-chicken to lay a chicken egg.
Incorrect. In order for a speciation event to occur the non-chicken would lay several eggs which become chickens, or (more likely) several non-chickens would lay eggs to produce chickens, which would then breed. If only a chicken could lay a chicken egg, then that means there would only ever have been chickens.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 14:08:13 2009 No.3855305 >>3854745 Exactly, precisely wrong. Chickens evolved from non-chickens, therefore non-chickens layed a sufficient percentage of chicken eggs at some point. Then came the actual chicken.

Anonymous Sat Dec 5 14:11:13 2009 No.3855311

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg#Science_and_evolution

>The modern chicken was believed to have descended from another closely related species of birds, the red junglefowl, but recently discovered genetic evidence suggests that the modern domestic chicken is a hybrid descendant of both the red junglefowl and the grey junglefowl.[9] Assuming the evidence bears out, a hybrid is a compelling scenario that the chicken egg, based on the second definition, came before the chicken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 14:35:13 2009 No.3855390 >>3855311 So they're going with my original thought, that you've only 'come' once you are a clearly definable separate organism from your parent, meaning the fact that the embryo is formed before the egg is entirely irrelevant.

>>	NewFriend !zkraGArAss Sat Dec 5 15:04:13 2009 No.3855497 The Rooster.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 16:14:13 2009 No.3855770 You are all overlooking a simple thing, a chicken egg is a female chicken's ovule. So the egg is infact a chicken 0.99 ovule, hence, a chicken 0.99 egg. The chicken seems to have come first. Crap, i drisproved all my previus rambling.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 5 16:17:13 2009 No.3855784 >>3855770 What the heck are you talking about?

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