Maribel/Yukari

[Anonymous No.]

Hello, /jp/.
I recently decided to give a fuck about Touhou lore and stop only listening to the ost and saving unnecessary amounts of artworks.

I have some questions about the relationship between Maribel and Yukari. Is it true that when Maribel sleeps, she dreams that she is Yukari, and when Yukari sleeps, she dreams that she is Maribel? Because if that's canon, I think I can take the theory that they're the same person more seriously.

If so, it is possible that the future Maribel (Yukari) has taught Maribel from the past about boundaries, and possibly helping herself to become a Youkai? The explanation to the change of names may be a reference to the writer Lafcadio Hearn, something that was already been pointed multiple times. In his case, he changed his name when he moved to Japan, and in her case, she changed her name when she became a Youkai.
What do you think?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
>Is it true that when Maribel sleeps, she dreams that she is Yukari, and when Yukari sleeps, she dreams that she is Maribel?
Never heard this before, who'd did you hear this from? The only relation between Yukari/Maribel/dreams I know of is that Maribel can visit Gensokyo in her dreams, but she's still probably human in these dreams as youkai attack her on sight. If she was Yukari in these dreams, no youkai would have the balls to randomly attack her.

If you're really interested about Maribel, go read all the CDs her stories and what-not pop up in (Ghostly Field Club, Changeability of Strange Dream, Retrospective 53 Minutes, etc.) Pic related is an excerpt from Changeability of Strange Dream.

[Anonymous No.]

Glad you're enjoying the lore. Make sure to read all of the CD stories, too.
There's hinting via the name (Hearn and Yakumo) and how the abilities of both of their characters work (seeing and manipulating boundaries) but there's never been explicit confirmation of either one being the other in the way you proposed.
Sometimes people make up theories very similar to what you suggested though.
I've always wanted to write something along the lines of Maribel becoming skilled enough in traveling between worlds and bypassing the boundary/concept of time so that she somehow becomes a traditional yokai just from moving too far back but that requires a shit ton of mental gymnastics.
I think that's why ZUN never fully confirmed it despite dropping hints everywhere. It's hard to piece together.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502137
>who'd did you hear this from?
Can't remember, but 99% sure I read this somewhere on Touhouwiki, because that's where I'm trying to learn the basics. Is this a bad source?

>If you're really interested about Maribel, go read all the CDs her stories and what-not pop up in
I'm interested because I liked Yukari in general, and since they seem to be connected in some way, I decided to delve deeper. And thanks for the suggestion :)

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502224
It's only saving grace is the gallery and the entire section dedicated to spellcards/omake imo
I can see how that section on Maribel's article could be mistaken for true canon since it's plopped right in the middle like it's valid information, and not on it's own page.
Not like they'll change it anyway, though...

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502155
>There's hinting via the name (Hearn and Yakumo)
Another theory I saw was that Maribel is a descendant of Yukari and this writer, but didn't ZUN say that any characters in the franchise had relationships or something? Or did he mean that they have no relations with each other?

>I've always wanted to write something along the lines of Maribel becoming skilled enough in traveling between worlds and bypassing the boundary/concept of time so that she somehow becomes a traditional yokai just from moving too far back
I would love for that to be the case, if you ever write this, show us!

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
The characters are tied by a few things but are never explicitly connected. They share a colour scheme, share the same name inspiration (Lefkadio Hearns aka Koizumi Yakumo), and the power that Maribel exhibits unconsciously could be a manifesting version of the gaphag's ability. Hopefully ZUN never explicitly makes them the same character as that would do a great disservice to the narrative cohesion of touhou while not serving any storytelling purpose.
>>38502224
The wiki is very hit or miss unfortunately so if there is no official source attached don't pay it much mind

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
Not ironically a good guide, thanks

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502305

>Or did he mean that they have no relations with each other?
thats what he meant

but at the same time, the Margatroid from Alice Margatroid comes from the Murgatroyd family, for example. ZUN used real name references in a shitload of characters

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
not complete yet
here you go

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502863
Fuck, I can't read that...

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502863
i feel like this addition was made by a malding seething shitter

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503068
keep reading fan fiction loser

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503407
>fanfiction as an insult
>literal doujin franchise
are you daft, anon?

[Anonymous No.]

Their canon relationship is strange but they DO seem to be related
>By Name
Lafcadio Hearn who changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo being the biggest hint about both being the same character but, please notice that Maribel's and Renko's stories are set in the future so it's a bit more convoluted than that. Mary's theme is very ominous and fits Yukari's personality as well (the side she doesn't show). Renko's surname being the same as Sumireko's is also relevant. Are they from a parallel universe? The same universe but in the future? No one knows for sure.
>By Indirect Interactions
Mary finds herself in Gensokyo and other otherworldly places due to her ability and she constantly finds objects or hints of canon Touhou events, some of which seem to related to Yukari (yet not 100% confirmed) like the creation of spellcard rules.
>By Lore
Yukari also mentions her knowledge of visiting the Lunar Capital by jumping into the Moon's reflection on the water is something she learned long ago from a *someone else* and IIRC we see Mary perform something similar or comment on this in one of her stories.

My memory is fuzzy so I can't remember the sources but they're scattered throughout multiple print works, not only the CD stories. It is very interesting. You could call the Secret Sealing Club the "dreamers" or "truth seekers" in the age of science (maybe even a reader self insert to some degree).

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503052
MTL and dictionary that you do on your own is probably better than going off of someones elses words if you can't read, from what I've experienced many editors on the wiki are ESL and trying to fix some things results in slapfightsm
Never forget the wiki calling Sannyo a prostitute for a short period of time.
>>38504144
Suika did something similar with breaking the moon by messing with the reflection as well (BAiJR), just wanna throw that out there

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>38504500
When you smoke so much of that dank that you astral project to Gensokyo…

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>38504506
The best of both memes now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38504804
Reality

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502305
>but didn't ZUN say that any characters in the franchise had relationships or something? Or did he mean that they have no relations with each other?
ZUN meant that yuri relationships are not canon, no one touhou girl is a lesbian.
There are a lot of characters that are confirmed to have been in relationships, for example: Sanae is a descendant of Suwako.
By the way, a theory that just occurred to me, what if Maribel is Yukari's daughter? I mean, Yukari can easily go to the outside world, fuck a man and have a secret family outside of Gensokyo. or maybe not her daughter, but her descendant, like the case of Suwako with Sanae.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38507750
>no one touhou girl is a lesbian.
YURIFAGS BTFO

[Anonymous No.]

>>38507750
>ZUN meant that yuri relationships are not canon, no one touhou girl is a lesbian.
no provided source therefore this is fanon headcanon, reimu and marisa have charged sexual tension

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
Story is good because it usually links to the game transcripts

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511512
Alicebros…we lost…

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511512
Yukarisisters…we lost…

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
>>38502863
What's the point in having a wiki or even translators for this series if nearly all of the information presented is nonsense then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511881
good question, there really isn't
you should completely ignore all western input on the topic of touhou because it's likely nonsense

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511881
There is a point in having a wiki, it's just that the wiki we have is trash. Best case scenario would be a /jp/sie run wiki but it would take a while to get it to a good level of information, and I doubt anyone on here would be willing to run such a thing for an extended period of time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511881
>>38512192
>>38512307
niggas will piss and complain about the wiki all day but make no effort to correct whats wrong with it

[Anonymous No.]

>yukari in the threadname
thread hidden

[Anonymous No.]

>>38519663
Based. Ignore Yukari and all mentions & fans of her

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
>only listening to the ost and saving unnecessary amounts of artworks
would it kill you to play the actual game though

[Anonymous No.]

>>38525652
well to be fair you wouldnt learn anything about maribel from the games, she only makes CD appearances afaik

[QM !QM7QUiZ0ro No.]

>>38519491
i once sat down for a few days and corrected a shit ton of articles while reading the original written works and talked about it on the official "discord" but me complaining about the crappy articles and translation pissed them off and they banned me for being too rude and i gave up because it's real actual work nobody is grateful to you for
let the people enjoy their fake eop garbage fan fiction, they won't know any better and be happy with it

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
>talked about it on the official "discord"
>"discord"
Big mistake

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
Good choice. Wikifags burn in Hell!

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
It's not like most of these fags even read the wiki, no no no. Most often, the secondaries are victims of a long game of broken telephone (or chinese telephone) and fanon. Take a look at the average touhou song comment section, it's almost like they are talking about a different series all together!
And the few that do go to the wiki will at best find a lack of information, but most often find bad information that will only lead them further astray.
The ideal wiki would serve two purposes, 1st a convenient resource for lore and character discussion that collects all relevant information from official sources (games, print works, omakes, interviews etc), and second a place where people that are interested in touhou can take a proper dip and avoid becoming fanon spewing secondaries.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38511512
I'm envious of that friendship

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
Had a similar experience but when I talked about it here I got told to "stop making shit up about [us]" lmao
I'd like to make a small site with just the collection of omake.txts, official artwork and a very small summary like "so and such is a yokai whos ability is to blah blah and has immediate relations to such and so" in English, just to avoid editing hell drama like that. It was unironically easier editing on the .wikia than wiki.net before the transfer, no drama.
>>38528558
Any day now she will be throwing Danmaku just you wait!

[Anonymous No.]

>>38512192
couldn't have put it better myself
the world would have been a better place if there was no western fandom beyond small groups of passionate autismos

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
>Is it true that when Maribel sleeps, she dreams that she is Yukari, and when Yukari sleeps, she dreams that she is Maribel?
No, not at all. Everything implies that Maribel is Yukari when she was younger, who gained a fascination with Gensokyo, had her powers spiral out of control, and slipped into the past whereupon she changed her name and became a youkai

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502305
>Another theory I saw was that Maribel is a descendant of Yukari and this writer, but didn't ZUN say that any characters in the franchise had relationships or something? Or did he mean that they have no relations with each other?
>>38502444
>>Or did he mean that they have no relations with each other?
>thats what he meant
not sure what you two mean by this but if anything ZUN has used an analogy to strongly imply that Yukari and Merry are one and the same

[Anonymous No.]

>>38504144
>please notice that Maribel's and Renko's stories are set in the future so it's a bit more convoluted than that.
hardly because we know Merry can time travel and that they're in the same universe. Aside from the various stories, she's directly left behind a note in the past that Akyuu found and documented

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
>Hopefully ZUN never explicitly makes them the same character as that would do a great disservice to the narrative cohesion of touhou while not serving any storytelling purpose.
what? I mean, he's all but confirmed it, you just don't always have to be explicit within a story to tell a story

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502322
>>38502863
The Personality section is usually honestly a good starter for a summary of how a character acts. At least by my opinion it tends to be correct and unbiased

Abilities may be incorrect sometimes, but importantly there's often citations, so ignoring it is fucking stupid. You can use those citations to find primary sources and come to your own conclusions

Why you'd skip summaries of where they actually appeared is just strange. Again, that is a list of primary sources

Relationships tend to be unbiased summations of the characters' relationships with other key characters. Also occasionally has citations

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503068
>malding seething
You don't belong here
>>38503420
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

Similar powers, similar design (compare th7 yukari to maribel first design), hearn/lafcadio thing, merry can time travel, merry can visit Gensokyo in her dreams. The most simple explanation is that Merry = Yukari so I go with that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38540460
All that indicates is that when originally designed there might have been a desire to tie them together in some storyline. However, if this was to happen it already would've. These characters debuted in late 2003, if ZUN wanted to make a story where they are revealed to be the same he would've done it already.
At this point, and with that I mean since the release of SSiB, it would screw with the narrative cohesion of touhou way too much for no real purpose. Back when Yukari and Maribel were introduced the rules governing Gensokyo were vague and some sort of time travelling youkai bullshittery wouldn't have been out of place, however things have gotten way more concrete since then. Importantly, in SSiB we learnt just how weak Yukari actually is, as opposed to the view some held of her being able to do anything with an ultra vague barrier manipulation power. As it turned out, she just has the ability to open portals and is proficient in making and maintaining barriers, but worse at the barrier shtick than Eirin and maybe even Reimu.
It might seem simple to chalk it up to gappie and merry being the same character, but once you take a look at the implications that has it starts looking real stupid, and I think that's why ZUN has left them dormant

[Anonymous No.]

>>38525652
Op here. Soon, I promise!
For now I don't want to, because I only have two hours to spare in the day, and I like to play things for like 5 hours straight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
I really appreciate your efforts and I'm sorry that you had contact with those things.

I think it would be interesting to have a kind of parallel wiki, much more accurate, straight to the point and with a name that doesn't look like something "wiki". Something that really interested people can find and appreciate, while the average Twitter user just writes "touhou wiki" and complements their headcanon with half truths.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38519491
The mods will actually ban you from changing things because they get butthurt

[Anonymous No.]

>>38540098
Cope

[Anonymous No.]

>>38540098
Jay Pee’s Puritan autism strikes again

[Anonymous No.]

>>38553456
>>38553818
Stop samefagging, kudasai

[Anonymous No.]

>>38547319
I think a good name might be "knowledge base".

[Anonymous No.]

>>38528844
nice pass, faggot

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
The way Maribel looks here never fails to make me crack up. She looks like a muppet receiving head

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
Your only chance to find the truth is too seek it out yourself

[Anonymous No.]

>>38564265

[Anonymous No.]

>>38564265

[Anonymous No.]

If Maribel is Yukari what the fuck happened to her morale code? Maribel was a bit off, but she didn't come across as a child serial killer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38543874
Sorry I don't see how, nothing you wrote makes me think "wow this is stupid". No offense, but it looks like you have some headcanons about ZUN writing that you deem canon

[Anonymous No.]

>>38575052
In the first windows era just about anything could happen, everything was vague and nothing was set in stone. SSiB marks a turning point in the way the series was written, as ZUN started treating touhou as something more than a passion project. Not only did rules start getting established, with more and more being piled on as time went on through the games and the print works, but the vague powers of already established characters where cleared up.
Importantly, it's become clear that Yukari cannot do any time manipulation, her ability is a form of teleportation.
Back in the first windows era (EoSD all the way to PoFV), it would've been perfectly acceptable for Yukari to actually be a former human from the future, whose human self in the future can still vaguely interact with Gensokyo, because of how dream like and fluid everything was. HOWEVER, we have long since moved from that era and now it would be retarded for this to be the case. It would mean that Yukari has a very powerful time manipulation power, but she didn't use it against the lunarfags in either of the two GensoLunar wars.
And once more I'll point you to the fact that if ZUN wanted to use Yukari=Maribel as a plot he would've already done so, it's been nearly two decades since these two first appeared.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38540098
+50 secret club karma points!

[Anonymous No.]

>>38576098
So "first Windows era" is now semi-canon like PC-98 because you said so. Ok.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38576098
You just made shit up for Touhou to fit your narrow view of it.
Don't worry you have lots of company as almost every Touhou fan is exactly like you.
>>38580287
Pretty much what they did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38580287
What? Nigger can you read?????
Appearantly not. Fucking retard, how much do I need to spell this out
1st windows gen, shit is vague, anything can happen and it would be acceptable. Therefore if Yukari is actually a former human from the future, whose human self still exists in the future and can interact with the present, it wouldn't be weird. It would fit tonally.
Post PoFV, rules get established, we begin to see how gensokyo and the wider world functions, Yukari's power is clearly shown to be nothing more than teleportation, certainly no control of the flow of time. Thus if it was revealed that Yukari is actually a former human from the future etc etc, it would be really stupid and would not fit in tonally or narratively.
You are talking some shit about "head cannon" but Yukari=Maribel IS a head cannon retard, one of the dumbest head cannons. Yukari is an age old youkai that played a vital role in the establishment of gensokyo. Maribel is a human girl in the near future that occasionally has visions of gensokyo and has managed to send a letter into the past. Yukari and Maribel exist at the same time as separate entities, therefore if they are one then 2=1, it just doesn't work. Gensokyo is a place where common sense doesn't apply but compared to the anything can happen nature of the first 9 games, things have gotten very logical. The only "proof" you faggots have of them being the same are design similarities, which are either just a tease or a set up for a plot that never came to fruition.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38573954
What the fuck do you mean?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38581260
Dude, chill.
Different anon here. Let me see if I get it.
It would be acceptable for something illogical to be created during the first generation, because it didn't have many rules applied, right? And you believe that Maribel probably had something to do with Yukari before, but now it would be weird and wouldn't fit, right?
So Maribel lost her purpose? Do you believe she will now be just an undeveloped character that appears on CDs? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to know if I understand what you think about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38581632
The idea is, when Maribel and Yukari first appeared back in 2003 touhou didnt have much established cannon and the tone was one of fantasy, dreams and the illogical being logical. At the time a random reveal in a CD that Maribel is Yukari that really doesn't affect the plot in any meaningful way, and only informs the lore (in that Yukari can time travel) would be par for the course. However, when SSiB came out a few years after we learned that Yukari is far from being the ultra powerful being that she portrayed herself as, there was a big shift. If that same hypothetical CD where to be put out at that point a lot of questions would be raised, with the main one being, why didn't Yukari use time manipulation against the lunarfags.
I'm of the opinion that the design similarities were either a red herring from the very start, or that ZUN had a concept for a story where Yukari=Maribel happens floating sround his head when he designed them, but never got around to doing it when the time was right.
And no, Maribel didn't lose her purpose, not her primary purpose anyways, that being, being one of the two members of the ghost sealing club. Those stories are all about Maribel and Renko, and even if Maribel is Yukari that wouldn't change.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38576098
>Thus if it was revealed that Yukari is actually a former human from the future etc etc, it would be really stupid and would not fit in tonally or narratively.
Nah it'd be easy. Just have the humans launch a final war against the moon in the future, the moon in desperation takes the most powerful humans and sends them back in time as youkai via Sakuya, and badabing badaboom, you've cleared up the Sakuya is a lunarian thought, Mari is Yukari thought, the Yukari leading a fight against the moon in the past concept, and the Lunarians creating youkai concept in one fell swoop

[Anonymous No.]

>>38576098
>Importantly, it's become clear that Yukari cannot do any time manipulation, her ability is a form of teleportation.

She can. She does it in IN, she stops the night from progressing by essentially doing a form of time stop.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38582960
Wasn't Sakuya the one who did that? Pic related kind of implies she was, unless by "we" she means everyone acting against the instigators of the incident. Strange wording regardless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38581800
You don't understand half of what Touhou is you have a rigid understanding of the "rules" of Touhou.
The rules that you state are honestly just the ones you made up from not knowing how to connect the early windows with the rest of the windows canon.
The truth is you just don't want Maribel and Yukari to be the same person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38583149
iirc the night is stopped by whoever you pick.
No clue how but I believe every team says to have stopped the night at stage4.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38582960
>>38576098
>>38582076
rather Maribel cannot intentionally travel backwards in time, and Eirin has said generally that time travel is impossible (intentionally at least)

Maribel slipping backward and being unable to return is also one of the first things in the side series that Renko worries about, explaining that if Maribel grows too attached to the other world, she may just go there and be unable to return.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38585106
>and Eirin has said generally that time travel is impossible (intentionally at least)
Please give a source for this

[Anonymous No.]

The real question is what's Yumemi's relation to Renko, Sumireko, and the hifuu club as a whole. The similarities and connections are well beyond coincidence at this point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587092
Yumemi is from a parallel universe isn't she?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38583222
Once again, I call your reading comprehension into question. Not once did the canonicity of any of the games come into question, nor did their place in the narrative.
You need to understand two concepts, works of art as living beings and the suspension of disbelief.
Touhou, much like any work of art that has additions over time, is a living being. It is not static, it evolves with each instalment, sometimes in small, other times in big ways. The setting and tone gradually evolve. Here the suspension of disbelief ties in. Put simply, the willing suspension of disbelief is the level to which the audience is willing to ignore logic in regards to the work. Back in the 2002-2007 period we could've accepted just about anything, the suspension of disbelief was practically infinite. However Bougetsushou marks the point where print works start having stories with heavy lore implications. In SSiB CiLR WaHH and FS we see more and more of how the world of touhou operates, the story evolves and the internal logic of the series changes. Those works showed that there was a logic to the madness and that there was a limit to what can be achieved even in the land of fantasy. Should something now happen that violates the internal logic of the series, the suspension of disbelief of the audience will be in shambles.
In the case of this theory that Maribel=Yukari would clash with the fact that Yukari played an important role in Gensokyo for at least a millennium before the barrier was even put in place and Maribel's travels to Gensokyo. It would mean that Maribel can travel to a land that she will help establish in what is her own future but the past in a macroscopic scale. She would be interacting with what a future version of herself did in the past. This of course has all the issues of time travel bullshit as to be expected. The point is, back in the day, we could have accepted this, nowadays no.
Maribel and Yukari are possibly connected in one way or another, but I'll also point out that Yukari=Maribel isn't the only theory floating around.
There is a high possibility that Maribel is a relative of Yukari, or that her bloodline had significant interaction with Yukari in the distant past.
They don't need to be the same character to be connected and honestly, it's best for Merry to stay separate of the hag. Them being the same character doesn't serve any storytelling function, it would simply mark an end to the adventures of Merry and Renko. Have you ever heard of Chekov's gun? it's the idea that every element of a story must be relevant in some way, Maribel=Yukari would be a twist for twist's sake.
>>38582960
>>38583149
>>38583262
Does the original Japanese script imply or directly state that time gets stopped? If not then when they say "stop the night" they mean bringing an end to the fake night created by Eirin

[Anonymous No.]

>>38580157
>secret club
This is such an overused meme response

[Anonymous No.]

>>38585171
I think I misremembered, actually. It would be this if I was right https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Third_Chapter but this is more of a "you can maybe derive x y or z from this chapter"

Eirin is unable to actually make someone travel forward in time, and instead freezes them for 300 years. I guess for my interpretation, if there's something Eirin can't do then it just isn't possible. This is the smartest character in the series, who can already break plenty of other established rules. That said that's only an interpretation: maybe she wasn't unable, but just unwilling (though it IS stated that cryogenic tech was cutting edge at the time they used it). She also left the "time traveler" no means of returning to the time he came from, but is that because it's impossible or because Eirin wanted him gone?

I feel like in an a to b to c way you could say with little doubt that intentionally traveling through time is not possible in Touhou because at the very least all time travel instances have been accidental, but afaik nothing outright states it to be impossible to do intentionally--you'd just think if it was possible there's plenty of characters who would know how

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587786
>>In the case of this theory that Maribel=Yukari would clash with the fact that Yukari played an important role in Gensokyo for at least a millennium before the barrier was even put in place and Maribel's travels to Gensokyo. It would mean that Maribel can travel to a land that she will help establish in what is her own future but the past in a macroscopic scale. She would be interacting with what a future version of herself did in the past. This of course has all the issues of time travel bullshit as to be expected. The point is, back in the day, we could have accepted this, nowadays no.
You're literally just ignoring and handwaving how this has been given a very easy establishing way and reason, and you're doing it in so many words that it is annoying.

For one thing there's no true paradox, in that Yukari and Maribel never touch, interact, or do anything like that. You could say "Yukari gave Maribel the idea for the barrier"... except it wasn't only Yukari's idea, she was one of several who proposed and made it possible. And regardless, Merry does time travel, period. It's just a proven aspect, and ignoring literally all the other signs and direct word of god because it isn't explicitly said just... it's just stubborn and weird, really. Semantic. I don't care.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587786
夜を止めている Is what they say. It's in the prologue as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587786
Also Eirin didn't create a fake night, she created a fake moon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587880
>overused meme response
As opposed to "who quote", get_out_of_jp(179).jpg and sperging out about any meme newer than 2009?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587927
>For one thing there's no true paradox, in that Yukari and Maribel never touch, interact, or do anything like that.
Here's a hypothetical, let's say you travel to the Parthenon, then after that you time travel to the past and end up building the Parthenon. Who built the Parthenon that you initially visited in the present? This is the problem posed by the Yukari=Maribel theory.
>You could say "Yukari gave Maribel the idea for the barrier"
What are you getting at here?
>except it wasn't only Yukari's idea, she was one of several who proposed and made it possible.
Indeed it wasn't, but she played an instrumental role. Even if we are to accept that she didn't partake in the initial creation of the Great Barrier, she has certainly morphed it to attract all that pass into fantasy. Yukari has suffered a great deal of charisma loss over the years, but that doesn't mean that she is a scarecrow.
>And regardless, Merry does time travel, period. It's just a proven aspect,
I never stated that she doesn't, in fact >38581260 "and has managed to send a letter into the past."
>ignoring literally all the other signs and direct word of god because it isn't explicitly said just... it's just stubborn and weird,
The connections between aren't necessarily signs that they are the same character, it can be interpreted as such, but it could also mean that they have blood relations. For something minor, the amount of "proof" would be enough, however character A is character B isn't minor, especially when character A is so important to the lore

[Anonymous No.]

>>38588310
>I never stated that she doesn't, in fact >38581260 "and has managed to send a letter into the past."
that isn't correct, she was literally just *in* the past, as she enters Gensokyo frequently. She left a note behind on one of those travels.

Anyway you sound like the kind of guy who would play Disgaea and notice that Midboss has a lot of connections to King Krichevskoy, but you'd say they're not the same character because it's never stated in any of the Disgaea games. This is actually a good example since, like Midboss/King Krichevskoy there is extra material somewhat blatantly stating the connection between the relevant characters. For Merry/Yukari it's ZUN telling you that their connection is "a guy with two different names", and for Disgaea it's an artbook explicitly stating Midboss is a reincarnation.

Basically, you're daft. You don't get that media doesn't have to be explicit to still get an idea across. It's pretty autistic, and I mean that really basically. Like it's one of those "if it's not like this my brain can't process it" things

[Anonymous No.]

>>38588507
Indeed, things do not need to be explicitly stated to be true, but something of this scale requires a lot more concrete proof than what we have. This isn't a "Gee weez, how come Bruuce Wayne and Batman are never in the same room?" case. If the stories of Maribel and Renko took place before the timeline of the games then I would readily accept that Maribel becomes Yukari, forces her way into becoming a sage, and then spreads rumours of being a founder of the place. However the stories of these two take place many years after the timeline of the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38588614
>If the stories of Maribel and Renko took place before the timeline of the games then I would readily accept that Maribel becomes Yukari
Well, it does https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Memorandum

did you read anything? Just read stuff. Yes this is only "several hundred years ago", but if anything that just means the floor is open for "any time in the past". Further judging by how Sumireko dreams into, at this point, Gensokyo in the future (she is still in high school, but has not aged/graduated) that's just something which is possible between the barrier and outside world, long ago established and still maintained (though I don't like Sumireko and would rather she just graduate and screw off)

[Anonymous No.]

>>38587786
Again you are showing your misunderstanding of the concept of the contradictory as well as what can be done.
Your "turning point" is imagined only by you and simply not understanding that time travel can exist in Touhou.
Suspension of disbelief as you call it is a subjective thing and it is honestly your own fault if it is broken for you. Which is will definitely be broken for you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
imma beat the shit out you imma beat the shit outta merry then imma beat the shit outta notbenben

[Anonymous No.]

>>38502017
>If so, it is possible that the future Maribel (Yukari) has taught Maribel from the past about boundaries, and possibly helping herself to become a Youkai? The explanation to the change of names may be a reference to the writer Lafcadio Hearn, something that was already been pointed multiple times. In his case, he changed his name when he moved to Japan, and in her case, she changed her name when she became a Youkai.
>What do you think?
That lines up with some stuff I've seen in the past.
Sometimes the two are depicted as separate, sometimes the same person as she and Renko split off and go their separate ways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38588682
You'd think people would take Sumireko as example and postulate that Yukari is a doppleganger or dream self that gained independence of Mari

[Anonymous No.]

>>38601026
Think people don't do that enough because the CDs already give off the idea that Maribel has potential to leave at any point if she goes in too deep
And Doremy doesn't seem to be after her ass if she's a rebelling dream person, just for interfering with other peoples dream selves (Sumi)
Still, it is a fun theory

[Anonymous No.]

>>38581490
Yukari is a child serial killer. What else do you think "The one behind the spiriting away" means?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38606574
All we know is that she gaps in outsiders. I don't think there's a single canon example of one of those outsiders being a child?

[Anonymous No.]

I have one more question more or less involving Yukari, but it's something too simple to make a thread just about it.
The question is: why doesn't Chen have the surname Yakumo? If surname is something that passes from master to shikigami, and Ran is Ran Yakumo, why?

Poor cat...

[Anonymous No.]

>>38612990
Chen is Ran's shikigami, and Ran is Yukari's shikigami. The shikigami gets the surname of its master, however that surname doesn't belong to it, therefore it cant pass it on. So its a case where Ran doesn't have surname that belongs to her, so Chen doesn't get one

[Anonymous No.]

>>38612990
ZUN forgot

[Anonymous No.]

>>38612990
I think she got referred to as Chen Yakumo in the Detective Satori Manga.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38588010
Why are you here and not on reddit instead?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38623264
Stop replying to an obvious troll

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503420
He's hardly wrong with those words.
Touhou is its own thing.
Actual fanfics are quite questionable at average, to put it lightly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503420
>>38623443
Yeah. And although it is a doujin franchise in a way and some doujin works and fanarts are great, the fanfics, especially the western ones, are horrendous. So using "fanfic" as an insult is fitting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38624328
freakin gensokyo is good though

[Anonymous No.]

>>38504804
Would Sumireko be the type to use her psychic powers all willy-nilly in the Outside?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38601026
>>38601099
Because she can't, that's only something that happened to Sumireko due to the Urban Legend Incident--an incident which began long after Yukari appeared in Gensokyo

[Anonymous No.]

>>38614019
nope

[Anonymous No.]

>>38503052
DeepL is decent. Machine learning translation, in case you don't feel like picking up the dictionary and Tae Kim for quick grammar reference.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38631697
She'll be a part of the family someday

[Anonymous No.]

>>38631697
It would be cute if Chen had her own extremely dumb and barely functional shikigami.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38634896
she tried, she just sucks at it (source: BAiJR)

[Anonymous No.]

>>38628080
Yeah, it is good. It's obviously not taking itself too seriously, it's supposed to be a deconstruction/crack fic after all, but what I especially like about FG is the way dialogues are written. They are very "casual", as in not book-like, but something you'd hear in real life. Also the way Brad and Matt interact with people.

And though the characters have their fandom personalities, I think reading FG was the closest I've ever been to "feeling" like I'm in Gensokyo (or at least like I'm watching Gensokyo through someone's eyes). No other fanfic, nor doujin does it for me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38638140
>>38628080
>having sympathy for youkai
It's a bad fic, simple as.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38573529
then how am i reading this retard? how am i typing this? diumbass

[Anonymous No.]

>>38638969
t. Reimu

[Anonymous No.]

>>38610466
Sumireko mentioned being abducted as a child. Yukari mentions keeping children in her home in PCB. The term "Spirited away" in general used to refer to children.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38644828
>Sumireko mentioned being abducted as a child.
Damn really? In which work/game?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38644828
>Yukari mentions keeping children in her home

[Anonymous No.]

>>38644828
>>38646609
>Sometimes things wash up on the shore.
>Like human children, or adults.
What did she mean by this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38644828
indeed. Chen it's only a child.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38651607
Imagine being taken to a house with nothing but a futon and a pillow and forced to hibernate with an old hag all winter

[Anonymous No.]

>>38631697
>>38633522
So cute

[Anonymous No.]

>>38653006
You would die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38651607
huh? what the fuck ZUN?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38645067
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Alternative_Facts_in_Eastern_Utopia/Article_and_Interview/Sumireko_Usami#Article

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
>sometimes I meet up with Ms. Mami in the city on my end, and we hang out there.
Wait what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
Damn, what was she doing in Gensokyo for three whole days?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
>and games people call "masterpieces" are just designed to pander to the nostalgia of middle-aged men
what kind of games does zun(sumireko) play

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
Feels more like a reference to the story of Alice in Wonderland
Shame AFiEU sucked so nobody noticed or cared enough about it
>>38667091
Asking the real questions

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
How does ZUN writes a zoomer girl so well, I even hate her sometimes

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
I want a meeting of Sanae, Hatate, and Sumireko. 3 different eras of "young girl"

[Anonymous No.]

>>38667101
>Shame AFiEU sucked so nobody noticed or cared enough about it
?

It's great and mentioned pretty frequently. There's a lot that came out of it, most notably Hecatia's stuff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38666142
Mamizou and Kasen both can and do go to the outside world with some frequency. Yukari does as well, and Remilia implies she has some connections to the outside world, too

[Anonymous No.]

>>38669341
Let's not forget Kanako somehow got sake from the Outside World in Lotus Eaters. Her wording implied that she would get in trouble if certain beings knew where she got the sake from, but what did she mean by this? Is going to the Outside taboo or something? Then what the fuck are Mamizou, Kasen, and Nue doing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38669341
I knew that, it's just that I didn't expect a gensokyo resident would want to meet her real self

[Anonymous No.]

>>38669372
They're ignoring the rules like Yukari. It's more that you're not supposed to be able to just go in and out of the barrier, let alone be able to do it casually.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38666142
I fucking hate Mamizou, she's like a minor villain that acts like a big shot

[Anonymous No.]

>>38672252
>minor villain
ALL of the tanuki and tsukumogami listen to her, she is without a doubt a big shot

[Anonymous No.]

>>38555381
>>38540098
I don't get this type of puritan autism. Do you really think this has actually made anyone leave /jp/?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38686779
You must be new here

[Anonymous No.]

>>38686779
First day around here, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>38700669
He sounds like he's seen the "get out of /jp/" before so it's probably not his first day.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38681206
Nah she's puny.

[Anonymous No.]

>>38686779

[Anonymous No.]

>>38665148
>I'm just so bored with modern society. All the latest trends and big hits are forced on us by corporations, the TV shows and games people call "masterpieces" are just designed to pander to the nostalgia of middle-aged men, universities and workplaces are all about maintaining the status quo, and the only thing that matters to today's youth is peace and quiet. And yet on top of all of that, the social networks that all the students use are a bunch of surveillance tools used for bashing other people's sensibilities. It's unbelievable to me that someone would find this world exciting. I'm so glad I started coming to Gensokyo, though. I feel like I've finally escaped from that gloomy, closed-off place! I've realized that just being alive is something to be happy about.

[Anonymous No.]

Makari Yuibel