/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

I want to get deeper into otaku culture, but does asking how to do that contradict the genuineness of a member?
I'm already heavily into anime, games and VNs but was wondering what else is there?

[Anonymous No.]

liturgy is the highest form of culture
so you need to participate in otaku orthodoxy

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995495
I have no one to worship
Forgive me padre, but I don't even have a waifu

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
by tearing up any hope in you that your parents may still have.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
if you're interested in going deeper you could read about the culture and it's history rather than just consuming it's products

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
VIPRPGs, Japanese CP

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
>I'm already heavily into anime, games and VNs but was wondering what else is there?
this and >>34995495
>liturgy is the highest form of culture
>so you need to participate in otaku orthodoxy
this.
There is no form of legitimacy so long as you aren't into the medium for attention and rather the enjoyment it brings you and everyone involved.

[Anonymous No.]

Just take it easy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
I have just what you need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24fERA2kW_Y

[Anonymous No.]

Real otaku culture is ero voice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35006385
This is peak normalfag shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>35007912
thats the joke im pretty sure

[Anonymous No.]

>>35008725
oh im a baka

[Anonymous No.]

Isn't it about 40 years too late for you?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995744
This honestly. Stay away from pseudointellectual anit*bers pretending to provide "analysis" though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35008879
>anit*bers
What word is this supposed to be?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35008889
looking at the word it seems to be "Anitubers", which is probably a portmanteau of "anime" + "youtuber"
aka those making 20 minute videos about FoTM shit and those pretending that evangelion is deep on reddit

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995744
the "culture" is doesn't really consist of anything beyond consumerism and a few memes, though

[Anonymous No.]

Buy metal wire shelving and use it in your room as furniture

[Anonymous No.]

>>35009746
Never encountered those types but it sounds pure cancer

[Anonymous No.]

>>35012441
Have some unneeded introduction or watch it if you like endurance challenges
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcmxOGYGF51T1XsqQLewGtQ

[Anonymous No.]

>>35010125
This, the entire idea of being an otaku is that you spend all your time alone in your room, what kind of “culture” could come out of that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35010125
consumerism is a huge part of it yes but it's not really a good attitude to think of the culture as just "consumerism and memes", it pretty close minded though it is a take easy to fall into just looking at things at surface level, the current nature of online communities that cover everything in layers of irony don't help either.
Try reading let's say, "Fandon Unbound: Otaku Culture in a Connected World", it's an anthology of 10 writers talking about diverse topics and communities in otaku culture such as train otaku, fujoshi, western AMV communities, the rise of Akihabara as an otaku space etc.
Some of them are excerpts from bigger projects but I think that because they're all bite-sized and covers many topics it should be good to get an idea on how the culture itself can branch in so many subcultures that you might find valuable to look into, as well as there is the possibility of finding more things to get a further understanding of in the culture in general.
I'm not going to claim to be well read and be the "I read books and so should you to be as intellectual as me" guy, as a matter of fact I consider myself really poorly read since I don't read much in general (besides manga) but every time I sit down and read about something I feel like I get a better understanding of what I consume and more importantly of myself, I think it's a pretty valuable thing to do

[Anonymous No.]

I think I'm alright then, I do read about production of different anime, or books about devs etc.
I'm not some dumb ironic "fan" who's only into something because its popular.
This whole time the real otaku was inside us all along

[Anonymous No.]

>>35015276
>This whole time the real otaku was inside us all along
that honestly is not a bad way to put it imo, keep having fun anon and I hope you always keep enjoying your hobbies

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
>what else is there?
learn japanese

[Anonymous No.]

>>35015467
nihongo no benkyou shimasu
mijikaidesu

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
the main thing is that you find something youre passionate about and truly love. yes a lot of otaku is consumerism and memes on the surface. its easy to get lost in focusing on the big, well-known doujin circles. but the true love and passion for something is whats necessary.

to me, otaku culture is mostly about the pure enjoyment of niche things. remember that most circles that go to comiket or reitaisai or <other Japanese otsku event> are most likely not turning much or a profit if anything. tables among tables of average people just trying to share their love and passion for their interests with others. train otaku, bike otaku, tea otaku you can find hobbyists for just about anything. its hard to state just how much stuff is out there because only a miniscule amount ever makes it out of Japan. these people are just making and doing things because they want to, and if a small number of people read their work and enjoy it that's good enough.

maybe im conflating otaku culture with doujin culture and doujin culture is what I truly love. but thats the fun of it, you can be an otaku for pretty much anything you're passionate about.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
As long as you don't watch virtual youtubers then you belong here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35015534
>tea otaku
I've started drinking tea recently and been enjoying it, do you know any tea otaku resources?
>you can be an otaku for pretty much anything you're passionate about.
Pretty much this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35016669
vtubers are deffo an otaku activity, though

[Anonymous No.]

>>35022312
Streamers aren't otaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35022312
>deffo
Get out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35001937
Based takeiteasychad

[Anonymous No.]

>>35022312
Go back to Twitter

[Anonymous No.]

>>35022787
Kill yourself crossboarder

[Anonymous No.]

>>35015233
Pic related is like genki for culture . It's a meme. Researchers talking about a culture they have not fully understood or researched
Read it but remember that 90% of the actuate scholarly sources are in Japanese
The other 10% are sharon kinsella

[Anonymous No.]

>>35022519
Nothing wrong with being Australian, mate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35015233
>Try reading let's say, "Fandon Unbound: Otaku Culture in a Connected World", it's an anthology of 10 writers talking about diverse topics and communities in otaku culture such as train otaku, fujoshi, western AMV communities, the rise of Akihabara as an otaku space etc.
that sounds moderately rad, even if only because it includes non-anime stuff. got a link my nigga ?

[Anonymous No.]

Genuinely would like to know why most here hate virtual youtubers in and of themselves.
The shitshow from December and the cancerous fans of the more mainstream ones aside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026375
>shitshow from december
>cancerous fans
Elaborate

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026375
It's cancerous thottery that gets in the way of the content being streamed. It represents and caters to the lowest sort of wees: Coomers

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026375
Vwhores attract the most cancerous fans to smaller niche interests. That alone is a sin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35007613
That one ero voice chan has been slow since 2014 and it's kind of sad...
>>35015534
I feel otaku and doujin culture go hand in hand so you're pretty much right with all of that

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026375
>and the cancerous fans of the more mainstream ones aside.
Streamer bullshit in general shouldn't be allowed in the first place if other boards are happy to nuke it (whenever they feel like it). Then again, normalfag tranny mods pinned a thread of an oogabooga when he took his life a few years back but decided this shit wasn't good enough for video game boards. Funny how they can create dozens of video game related boards every year but they can't enforce the simple rule of keeping vtubers in their new board.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026502
but jav and ero voice is fine?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35017025
there are actually tea otaku threads that i've seen on /jp/, though I haven't seen them in a while

[Anonymous No.]

kuso thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026395
How? If you mean to say you have no idea what I'm talking about then don't worry about it.
>>35026502
Is this pervasive throughout the entire scene or are you talking about the main public faces of it?
>>35026584
>attract the most cancerous fans to smaller niche interests
Any specific examples you found particularly damaging?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026724
But what about virtual youtubers themselves do you dislike especially? Or if it's the same reason that you dislike streamers in general: why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026758
How is it compared to the threads on /ck/?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026728
those are explicitly porn so they get a pass for not being presumptuous. vtubers are coomer content for people not willing to admit they're only watching the content because they are using it to get their pp tingly

>>35026808
>Is this pervasive throughout the entire scene
Oh yeah. It gets worse the further down you go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026946
You really have to ask that? Fucking zoomer cancer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35025827
Fair enough.
But being Australian and a vtuber apologist? That's where I draw the line.

Why, oh why must we have derailed a comfy thread into vtuber-relatedrelated shitflinging again..? Might as well contribute to it.

>>35026946
Not the same anon, but online personalities in general are not inherently bad, the communities that they form around themselves and, consequently, the way these communities shape said personalities can turn out really poorly. When hololive got popular, I jumped on the trend train like the easily propagandized normalfag that I am and... quit after around a month. There was never anything outstanding about the holos to begin with, and even during my exploratory month of stay there, I genuinely witnessed decline in quality.
The content is very easily digestible. So easy, in fact, you don't have to really understand Japanese to consume it. People come to look at the cute avatar, not the material, which is evidenced by viewer dips in some of the streams where the tuber changes the model to a less fortunate one. It's incredibly dumb entertainment at its core, and with a community that, allow me to get comfortable in my elevated saddle, grew up consuming shitty Vine compilations and otherwise short unfunny shit, and brainwashed into thinking it's funny, has and still is turning anything popular into a place to repeat the same unfunny memes ad nauseam, knowing no restraint, not attempting to do something actually fun.
To expand on this: look at any of the hololive threads, look at them very closely. Do you see long reply chains? Do you see posts with over 3 words in them? They are laughably few. Nothing fun, nothing interesting, yet they also claim to be better than their /vt/ brethren (which I actually am ready to believe). This is new Internet culture, the culture of seeking a quick injection of dopamine and not generally caring about where it comes from. I hope I don't need to explain why it's a bad thing.
Vtubers (at least those everyone knows) are both a product and a producer of that culture.
I almost hate how genuine your question is, but I hate how stupid and needlessly long my rant is even more.

[Anonymous No.]

>tfw australian
>tfw literally every other australian on this site gives me a bad name

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028108
I feel your pain. I'm a leaf myself

[Anonymous No.]

>>35027821
I've seen too many exceptions to that view to write off the concept as a whole.
>>35027963
I'm asking for specifics. Some find the parasocial stuff worse, or the way twitchbros are mindless, but neither of those have to necessarily apply to the vast majority of streamers. It's stupid that a monoculture for streaming even exists, considering all streaming fundamentally entails is broadcasting audio/video in real-time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028206
The gist of it is that attaching a coomer-pandering dog girl to your streaming is patronizing.

People want to see someone play Freelancer or Warzone or whatever. Not have an anime dog girl coo at them. If they wanted anime dog girl cooing, they'd seek out outright pornography instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028389
>People want to see someone play Freelancer or Warzone
No we don't.

[Anonymous No.]

i saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by the hololive thread, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through /jp/ streets at dawn looking for an angry fix.

>>35028389
>If they wanted anime dog girl cooing, they'd seek out outright pornography instead.
this is utterly brainless logic. it's like saying that all female-centric media (which is like, what, three quarters of /jp/?) should all be pornography instead. 4 girls doing something? just watch porn. 275 girls trading bants and bullets? basically porn. common route of a VN? should just be all H-scenes instead.

[Anonymous No.]

Thread becomes riddled with crossies and just generally turns into shit as soon as someone mentions vtubers. Who would have thought?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028505
They're not taking it easy

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028505
They need to be called out for the festering scum they are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028505
>shit on vtubers and their fans unprompted
>they argue back
how could they do this to you?

incidentally OP himself is open to vtubers because he hasn't been marinated in a culture of brainless hatred so really, we all collectively did him a service by ruining his thread

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028542
>he hasn't been marinated in a culture of brainless hatred
That's a funny way of saying "I'm a newfag and don't belong here".

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028562
i've been posting here since 2010. most of the reflexive vtuber haters are dumb EOP faggots who got here in 2015.

it's cool if you don't believe me, i don't give a shit. feel free to further embarrass with a complete lack of any argument that could convince OP.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028058
First of all, my questions are probably are less applicable to people whose only experience with vtubers are hololive, so sorry if my response isn't satisfactory. Anyway:
>the way these communities shape said personalities can turn out really poorly
Do you believe anything inherent to the concept of being virtual youtuber is responsible for this?
Individual streamers have individual rules, and this probably often arises simply because more priority is placed on things like views. Which of course causes an awful feedback loop if views and communities increase in number without mind to cultivating healthy mindsets.
>The content is very easily digestible.
This is more about the Non-Japanese speaking audience trying to watch Japanese streamers than it is with an inherent problem with virtual youtubers themselves.
It's not that the content is always easily digestible, it's that that audience never actually engages with the content with first place as you point out in the latter part of this argument.
The rest of your post, again, doesn't say much inherent about the concept of virtual youtube itself.
I don't disagree with you about any of those problems either, but dooming the entire space based on these predictable surface impressions, which are unfortunately so repulsive that there's no attempt made to explore the space further, just feels really wrong as there shouldn't be anything inherent in the culture to prevent any particular vtuber from avoiding these issues and providing entertainment that has deeper value. Or at the least, something that isn't just about dopamine hit.
>I almost hate how genuine your question is
I prefer my autism to the hellscape of ironic inauthenticity that's come about in recent years.

>>35028389
Responding to this with: "Wrong, some people do" is incredibly trivial and I feel annoyed having to even point it out, because that's the source of the lament in the first place.
The second obvious objection is that not all avatars are to be viewed through a sexual lense even if a lot of the ones you see are. It just makes it sound like you're projecting.
You would have to make an argument against the concept of using avatars as a whole to have a problem with vtubers as a whole and not just hololive or whatever other organization you have in mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
Recite the Nembutsu or suffer.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't even care for Vtubers as much as the rest of /jp/ but this shit literally lives rent free in some of your heads and you can't have one fucking thread without debates about people using a Vietnamese Cave Painting as their streaming avatar

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028663
>as much as the rest of /jp/

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028693
Sorry forgot this is /int/ now

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028644
you're overthinking vtuber hatred. it's not a universal otaku phenomenon, it's localized to /jp/ because they hate the hololive thread (which is, in fairness, a trash fire which overflowed to the whole board last year) and have decided to project their opinions of the average hololive fan onto all vtubers. think people whose only exposure to vocaloid culture is through underaged tumblr drama retards and decide that the entirety of vocaloid is the same thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028611
Fucking nobody cares about when you started posting. You're gossiping over internet celebreties, the only reason you and your faggot friends are not banned on sight is because the ecelebs you spam talk with a live2D image synced to their voice. Ecelebism has been relentlessly bullied since time immemorial, you'd know this if you didn't start browsing in 2015.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028742
>cirno with 12 in her eyes
spoonfeed me on this one

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028663
You don't belong here

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028742
>Fucking nobody cares about when you started posting.
the term "newfag" literally exists for the sole purpose of ridiculing people over the date in which they started posting. don't play coy.

>Ecelebism has been relentlessly bullied since time immemorial
it's also been a part of /jp/ since time immemorial. the H!P thread has been part of /jp/ for thirteen years consecutively. no doubt back in the day you relentlessly argued about how idols aren't "otaku culture", but you were wrong then, and you're still wrong now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028736
I hated vtubershit before the hololive thread was dumped here.
>>35028782
>it's also been a part of /jp/ since time immemorial.
So? We always hated it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028782
I was correct then and I'm still correct now. Celebreties are for normalfaggots, Twittershits and Discord-trannies. Fuck you and fuck off to /vt/ where you belong.
>>35028754
Madkillz thread oppic, old IIchan shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028522
Always

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028864
I WANT TO BEEE WITH YOU AND MAKE BELIIIIIEVE WITH YOU

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028846
>So? We always hated it.
the vast majority of people never gave a shit one way or another. only a few loud self-appointed board police faggots really ever cared. the idol and non-idol halves of /jp/ used to interact semi-cordially for the first two years of /jp/.

anyway, "i hate it" does nothing to convince OP that it's either objectively bad or not part of otaku culture.

>>35028847
you don't even give a shit about otaku culture. you only care about imageboard culture and roleplaying culture cop on a board whose "culture" has been defined by larping faggots for the better half of a decade.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028444
>it's like saying that all female-centric media (which is like, what, three quarters of /jp/?) should all be pornography instead.
I'm gay, but that's what it looks like. Can you name even one piece of "female-centric" media that isn't obvious pandering?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028782
>the H!P thread has been part of /jp/ for thirteen years consecutively
It has also been hated for all that time.

>>35028644
>Do you believe anything inherent to the concept of being virtual youtuber is responsible for this?
Most certainly. It's still e-celebs/idols/whatever you call it. Unhealthy amounts of attention dedicated to the creator, not creation, is inevitable.
>The rest of your post, again, doesn't say much inherent about the concept of virtual youtube itself.
Indeed. Vtuber discussion should stay on /vt/, I am not willing to argue whether or not a certain medium is bad. But vtubers is inherently e-celeb crap, much like idols, seiyuus and whatnot. And e-celeb crap is bad in my book.
Honestly, I don't want to write long posts about this. I am already incredibly ashamed that normalfags, of all things, are not letting me take it easy...
I just want /jp/ to slow down, I just want to take it easy again...

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028905
>Can you name even one piece of "female-centric" media that isn't obvious pandering?
most of it is obvious pandering. that's how most otaku media works. it's not pornography except in the sense that the food network is "pornography" because it gives people what they want to see.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028644
>You would have to make an argument against the concept of using avatars as a whole
I would. Avatars were a mistake

[Anonymous No.]

>>35025766
>sharon kinsella
I'll take a look on her, thanks anon
guess one of the downsides of not being well informed is not being able to tell the legitimacy of a text, I really can't say I saw anything wrong with anything I read besides not really being interested in some of them, that added to the fact most of their sources are likely in japanese as well, it's going to take a while since I can get to the level I'll be able to read actual native stuff
I did like a few of them though, do you think it's all bad?

>>35025889
you can find it on b-ok or on libgen by searching "Otaku Culture", it's a 5mb pdf

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028904
>only a few loud self-appointed board police faggots really ever cared
And now the vast majority of tru /jp/sies hate idolshit/ecelebism. Isn't it beautiful?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028904
Idols are not ecelebs, stop intertwining the two. Both are cancer but that doesnt make them interchangeable.
>you dont even give a shit about otaku cluture
You're right, otaku culture stretches far and wide, not everything is great, and to curtail the garbage from my stream of daily communication is entirely in my right. E-FUCKING-SPECIALLY when the aforementioned cancer has their own containment board to use.

[Anonymous No.]

It's crazy how only REAL /jp/ POSTERS post the things anon likes, and only faggots post things he doesn't

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028938
>food network
Since I was little, the food networks have definitely transitioned away from cooking shows to reality shows. Rather than show how to cook, and explore and play in kitchen work, it's about giving the general vibe of bEiNg a ChEf -- and chefs don't cook. Chefs are kitchen managers/owners. Just like how vtuber shit and modern otaku stuff is more about having a waifu than engaging in culturally japanese content.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028963
the term "tru/jp/sie" used to the be the calling card of underaged shitposters, and the fact that the cancerous culture they spawned now lays claim to the entirety of /jp/ culture isn't beautiful. it's a trash fire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028993
>the term "tru/jp/sie" used to the be the calling card of underaged shitposters
Wrong. Anons used it all the time without being part of the shitposting crew. 2011-2012 is long gone so grow up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028986
>Idols are not ecelebs, stop intertwining the two. Both are cancer but that doesnt make them interchangeable.
they're all part of a large parasocial tendency in otaku culture that spans a spectrum from people who fall in love with 2D characters on one side and people who develop unhealthy obsessions with fully 3D people on the other.

>curtail the garbage from my stream of daily communication is entirely in my right.
sure, you can shit on them as much as you want, just as anybody else can pick [thing they don't like] and dedicate their life to shitting on it. i'm just helpfully informing OP that he's dealing with deranged people rather than people acting out of any sort of principle.

>>35028986
>Just like how vtuber shit and modern otaku stuff is more about having a waifu than engaging in culturally japanese content.
i mean, sure, but the sale of waifus has been core to modern otaku culture ever since moe came and stole the "otaku" label from the gunheads and trainspotters back in 1995 or whatsoever. the ship you're complaining about sailed over twenty years ago.

also, japanese vtubers *are* culturally japanese content.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028917
>Unhealthy amounts of attention dedicated to the creator, not creation, is inevitable
A large problem but is it really inevitable?
Makes me wonder about your first statement
>online personalities in general are not inherently bad
It's fine if you don't want to answer further obviously.
>>35028947
>I would. Avatars were a mistake
Does this go much deeper than the e-peen argument?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029031
>Anons used it all the time without being part of the shitposting crew.
those anons were shitposters, and so are you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029084
I never liked them and I was glad that they fucked off to their spinoffs.
>and so are you.
No I'm not you delusional retard. I will make sure to keep the the anti-idolshit tradition alive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029065
>the ship you're complaining about sailed over twenty years ago.
True, and the only recourse left is torpedo and gun fire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029118
I wonder what happened to those spinoffs, they seem dead as fuck

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029118
>I never liked them and I was glad that they fucked off to their spinoffs.
people using the language of shitposters are usually shitposters. also a lot of the spinoffs died so a bunch of them are back.

>I will make sure to keep the the anti-idolshit tradition alive.
if you're in it for the sake of tradition, go for it. i'm all for the preservation of traditional cultural practices. just don't pretend there's actually any more to it than "this is the way we've always done it."

>>35029124
be sure not to broadcast your affiliation to 4chan when you finally decide to bomb the aniota out of akihabara, this site has it bad enough already.

that said, we live in a world today that's flat enough that if you're a modern gun otaku or a train otaku there's pretty much no need for you to be hanging around a dedicated "otaku culture" board, which in the west almost always signifies japanese media. you'd probably just self-identify as a generic gun or train fan and browse /k/ or /n/ instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029075
One obvious example would be artists. I haven't seen many examples of people obsessing with a person because of their art.
Then again, it's debatable whether these are "personalities".
But I admit, even a cause so lost such as a vtuber does not necessarily need to have an obsessive fanbase... at first.
If the personality wants the community to not be a niche thing, popular appeasement techniques need to be applied. The impact of such techniques on the "quality" of that personality's activities is rather obvious.
I'm ready to place a bet that even hololive was once not so intrusive and obnoxious. Adapting to the aforementioned demand for a quick dopamine hit earned it success and attracted the respective audience.
I am a somewhat firm believer in the "popular is bad" argument in that regard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35028736
Simply accepting an incomplete conclusion, as applicable as it is for some cases, would be intellectually dishonest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029165
>be sure not to broadcast your affiliation
I'm an independent; if and when I start to gas and bomb, it'll all be written off as yet another random incident to be used to implement whatever the majority party likes.

>there's pretty much no need for you to be hanging around a dedicated "otaku culture" board,
at least partially true, but the same sort of comsumerist trash infects everything. I'm surprised there aren't more little Teds and McVeighs running around.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029161
Forget about them
>>35029165
>just don't pretend there's actually any more to it than "this is the way we've always done it."
/jp/sies always hated it and there's nothing you can do about it. I always knew that idolshit/ecelebism would attract the worst posters to /jp/. Don't believe me? Look at the generals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029065
Learn to respond to the right post next time, faggot-kun. VTubers are YouTubers and Twitch streamers, thats the distinct difference between normal idolfaggery and this special breed of cancer, and the reason it doesn't belong on /jp/. You faggots hear them speaking Japanese and automatically think its jay-pee material, it's not, you're fawning over an internet celebrety and you're either newfag-scum, normalfag-scum or tranny-scum. Pick your poison and then promptly die, thank you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029186
sure. i'll ungeneralize a little bit. from what i've seen, there are four types of vtuber haters. almost everyone i've seen so far is a mix of some of these.

- tribalists
- anti-celebs
- hardcore gatekeepers
- people who think they're "bad" for otaku culture

you can see a lot of type 1 and 2 in this thread, they can speak for themselves. type 3 is the kind that sees vtubers as the drivers of "casuals" invading their hobbies whenever a vtuber engages with content that they would prefer stay niche. type 4 doesn't give that much of a shit about the vtubers themselves but laments that they command such a huge share of the otaku attention economy and sap creative output from hobbies they prefer more (for example, complaining that an artist that used to do X thing they liked fell down the vtuber hole).

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029275
Don't forget that they have their own board

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029255
>Don't believe me? Look at the generals.
literally every general in /jp/ is bad, including the ones that have nothing to do with ecelebs.

>>35029275
>VTubers are YouTubers and Twitch streamers
people who mentally associate vtubers with twitch and western youtubers (as opposed to the japanese eceleb and streaming traditions) are generally EOP retards who have a mentality that never managed to graduate from /v/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029282
>there are four types of vtuber haters
There are only /jp/sies and those who don't belong

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029311
>people who mentally associate vtubers with twitch and youtubers
Are correct, that's precisely what they are, they're wearing a 2D mask of paint and they speak in a high-pitched voice. That's the only difference, if it's not then please do inform me of any other.
>never managed to graduate from /v/
Rich coming from someone who shares their entire posting style with /v/

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029350
dumb self-appointed board police faggots like you helped ruin the board in 2013 and have been unwelcome by actual hobbyists ever since.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029368
dumb ecelebfags like you helped ruin the board by attracting the worst posters. /jp/ isn't just a hobbyists board so learn to deal with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029311
>VTubers who are on YouTube are not YouTubers
>VTubers who stream all day are not streamers
This is your brain on ecelebism. Excuse my quoting, but jesus fucking christ. The mental gymnastics you people partake in just so you can keep your dirty fingers on /jp/ instead of going to /vt/ where you belong is approaching insanity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029361
>Are correct, that's precisely what they are, they're wearing a 2D mask of paint and they speak in a high-pitched voice. That's the only difference, if it's not then please do inform me of any other.
the *cultural* tradition that vtubers inherit from more closely follows the tradition of idols than western streaming culture. vtuber events include concerts, variety, and the sort of radio corners that were common in japan among idol and seiyuu-idols for years. they are *playing a character*, who might have a high-pitched voice, or might not.

>Rich coming from someone who shares their entire posting style with /v/
content is more important than style. to put it bluntly, somebody who thinks twitter is somehow foreign to otaku culture when 99% of otaku creators have a twitter themselves is not actually a japanese otaku culture enthusiast. it's an indisputable sign that you're looking at the internet from a perspective embedded in western communities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029426
>you helped ruin the board by attracting the worst posters. /jp/ isn't just a hobbyists board so learn to deal with it.
the literal worst posters are shitposters like you who decided that that /jp/ should be a culture board instead of a hobby board.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029175
>I haven't seen many examples of people obsessing with a person because of their art.
It happens but on a less noticeable scale.
>If the personality wants the community to not be a niche thing, popular appeasement techniques need to be applied. The impact of such techniques on the "quality" of that personality's activities is rather obvious.
I have hope that there's a way to achieve both ends without having to resort to such measures, but that method simply hasn't been thought of yet because it is such a difficult thing to balance. Maybe it has been done, but I can't think of a good example right now. There's also the possibility of a larger societal change away from this tendency, but that's asking a lot.
>I'm ready to place a bet that even hololive was once not so intrusive and obnoxious
Of course it wasn't, but this is just a matter of course when the first talent started out with some 13 viewers and it was originally just a tech company.
>spoiler
Can I suppose that means you enjoy some popular things because you can still recognize their quality?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029554
>Culture = 100% shitposting
So this is your brain on ecelebism huh.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029603
culture organically arising from interests = good
culture taking primacy over the interests = 100% shitposter territory

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029536
>the *cultural* tradition that vtubers inherit from more closely follows the tradition of idols than western streaming culture.
It doesn't, they play videogames and they stream themselves playing videogames. They fish for donations and the discussion surrounding them involves dramafagging akin to western streaming culture and YouTuberism. The fact that they hold concerts or host radio corners, and the fact that its reminiscent of what ancient idols did doesnt justify what they are.
>somebody who thinks twitter is somehow foreign to otaku culture when 99% of otaku creators have a twitter themselves is not actually a japanese otaku culture enthusiast.
I never said anything remotely similar to this, Twittershits means your run-of-the-mill Redditory and shitposters who spend all their time attention-whoring on Twitter, not Japanese accounts who post art. Also, you can be an enthusiast of otaku culture without following people on, or even using Twitter, I get most of my stuff directly from Pixiv.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029623
Smaller niche interests = good
Big corporate interests that attract awful posters = bad
Gatekeeping = natural

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029282
Apart from the tribalists, what are your main disagreements with each of these views?

[Anonymous No.]

I feel like Otaku culture is an umbrella term referring to whole variety of Japanese media from vtubers to visual novels, manga, anime, Japanese video games, origami and the like. I guess if what you mean by getting deeper into Otaku culture is by consuming more of the media then you're doing just fine, mate. You'll just draw naturally towards the types of media and culture that interest you, and then you'll be a true Otaku, if that's what your end goal is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029721
Otaku just means Nerd/Geek. That you're obsessive over some dorky pursuit, like trains or whatever. Only after hitting the west did it get narrowed down to just being an anime fan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029635
>It doesn't, they play videogames and they stream themselves playing videogames.
most of them don't speak *english* and so are therefore literally incapable of culturally inheriting from western streaming culture. the proportion of english-competent japanese vtubers is about one in a hundred.

it's like trying to claim that doujin culture is simply derivative of western fanfiction and since the western fanfiction community is garbage, doujin culture sucks too. doujin culture, despite being *literally* fan-fiction by definition, derives from an entirely separate cultural tradition from western fanfiction and should be examined on its own merits.

>>35029635
>shitposters who spend all their time attention-whoring on Twitter, not Japanese accounts who post art. Also, you can be an enthusiast of otaku culture without following people on, or even using Twitter, I get most of my stuff directly from Pixiv.
well, first, you're missing everyone who isn't an artist, and even if you are following only artists, a lot of artists either don't upload to pixiv or only do batch uploads once a month. also it goes without saying that japanese twitter is not just art.

the fact that your *first association* with twitter is dumb reddit shitposters is a sign that you're embedded in western social media communities rather than japanese ones.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029703
>e-celebs
i'm not inherently against people who despise e-celebrity in general. these people are generally either in the cult of the creator or cult of expertise, where "value" should be given to people who create or are good at things rather than people who are popular. i used to be part of that. i stopped giving a shit at some point, but i have no truck with people who still do.

>gatekeeping
i have a mixed opinion of gatekeepers because some amount of gatekeeping is necessary for a hobby but a lot of gatekeepers are retarded.

>bad for the community
i sympathize with these people but there's no point in trying to fight the tide. fads happens.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029864
Gatekeeping is a meme invented by secondaries who hate to be called secondaries
It doesn't even make sense
I've been called a gatekeeper for telling people how to get into 龍が如くso they have the richest experience, but I was called a gatekeeper

[Anonymous No.]

The OP just asked how to get deeper into otaku culture and you're arguing about e-whores for almost 2 hours. Sheesh, just take it easy...

[Anonymous No.]

takes two to tango

[Anonymous No.]

now that im a master of otaku how can i become a 1st dan in being WIDE

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029742
>most of them don't speak *english* and so are therefore literally incapable of culturally inheriting from western streaming culture. the proportion of english-competent japanese vtubers is about one in a hundred.
My problem with them is primarily their followship, so people like you, not what words they say on stream. Also if you want to deconstruct the culture like this, instead of admitting you're normalfag scum, two can play that game. Streaming yourself playing videogames is definitely a western phenomena, one that has reached the world over, claiming that Japan is free from this is ludricous. It's either corporate shlock designed to siphon money, or independent 3D women parroting on the name and culture of anime. If you think Japan is free from garbage or western influence, you're ridiculously delusional. Blindly consuming media from a country and being oblivious to what is tainted by western-poz or not is a sign you're either a normalfaggot or incredibly stupid. Regardless of which it is, you have a set of very similarly minded people over on /vt/.

>the fact that your *first association* with twitter is dumb reddit shitposters
Oh, dont be mistaken, my first association with Twitter *IS* dumb reddit shitposters, but I was mostly calling (You) one of them. I wasn't critiqueing the site as a whole. If I were to do that, then I'd just ask why the fuck you're on social-media where you're forced to project identity, if you're going to use anonymous basket-weaving 4ums. People around here dont normally fancy garbage like that, which is why people go here instead of there to begin with. Maybe a normal forum or even a Dicksword server would be more up to your speed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029864
I was honestly expecting more scathing criticisms.
>i stopped giving a shit at some point
Did it just get tiring or was there another reason?
>i have a mixed opinion of gatekeepers because some amount of gatekeeping is necessary for a hobby but a lot of gatekeepers are retarded
That's always going to be a degree/spectrum problem with each individual drawing their own line. Avoiding either extreme is usually appropriate, but even that can change by case.
>fads happens.
That's an interesting point. Is it just a fad?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029955
Eat stew to get wider and stronger.
https://youtu.be/lHXkzadukUk

[Anonymous No.]

Why does /jp/ even exist in the first place? Why is there a "catch-all" garbage board for otaku interests on a site made for discussing otaku stuff? All of this could have been avoided if moot wasn't such a faggot and a poser and made some proper boards instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030010
>Streaming yourself playing videogames is definitely a western phenomena, one that has reached the world over
whoop de fucking do. you know what else is "western phenomena that has reached the world over?" animation and video games. time to call it a wrap, lads, we had a good run.

>It's either corporate shlock designed to siphon money
yeah, that's how the economy works. everything anyone was ever paid to do is this.the olive garden is "corporate schlock designed to siphon money" out of my pockets but if i want to eat unlimited breadsticks i'll go there anyway.

>Blindly consuming media from a country and being oblivious to what is tainted by western-poz or not is a sign you're either a normalfaggot or incredibly stupid
it takes incredible chutzpah to claim that somebody is a "normalfaggot" because they don't spend all day face-down in western culture wars like you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030121
You aren't allowed to question that because that's actually getting into the root cause of the issue and it's counterproductive to do so

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030035
>Did it just get tiring or was there another reason?
when i was young i had a very "idealistic" view of otaku culture. there was some sort of ideal that i thought we were all aspiring to reach, some creative ideal beyond the reach of the rat race and social normalfaggotry that surrounds us every day. the whole thing wasn't very well thought-out, but somehow by "refining one's spirit" we could transcend the shittiness and superficiality of the modern world and achieve a higher level of understanding through otaku culture. obviously nobody actually wrote this out at the time because of how retarded it sounds (and is) but the feeling was there.

at some point (mediated by loss of faith in the community) i realized i didn't care, the real world will always come and eat you, so you might as well just find the media you like the most, even if that happens to be a virtual idol telling you about her day.

>That's an interesting point. Is it just a fad?
i don't actually think it is. i think it's just a further evolutionary step in the character-love economy. before this was mediated by character merchandise, a rather inefficient way of turning obsessions with anime or VN characters into profit. later on gacha became a more efficient way of doing this: pay money, receive waifu. (idols aren't "characters" but the same thing existed to some extent on other side: CDs, concerts, handshake tickets.)

vtubers seems like the final form of this, the complete and crass financialization of the parasocial relationship.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030148
Animation and video games originated from western ideas and phenomena, back when the west wasn't interchangable with the word poz. I'm not going to delve into that clusterfuck of a discussion so I apologize for bringing it up. But you should really stop arguing in such bad faith. The newly crept-up phenomena of streaming yourself playing videogames and taking donations for doing so is inherently prebaked with western-garbage and ecelebism, the exact recipes everyone here has hated forever. The fact that the frosting is in Japanese doesn't make the cake edible.
>it takes incredible chutzpah to claim that somebody is a "normalfaggot" because they don't spend all day face-down in western culture wars like you.
Knowing what flavor of shit you're digesting is very different from acknowledging that its feces. Swallowing it because some goblin told you it was Made in Japan™ is being a normalfaggot jagoff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030121
Because you have border-cases like Touhou, Idols, Japanese Cinema & Television, VNs, Japanese Learning, Vocaloids, ect which dont really fit in on any other board properly without either constantly sliding off the catalog or completely throwing the board into disarray.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030294
> inherently prebaked with western-garbage and ecelebism, the exact recipes everyone here has hated forever. The fact that the frosting is in Japanese doesn't make the cake edible.
i honestly couldn't give less of a shit what your opinion is of a cake you've never actually eaten. you have no idea how this cake actually tastes.

>Knowing what flavor of shit you're digesting is very different from acknowledging that its feces. Swallowing it because some goblin told you it was Made in Japan™ is being a normalfaggot jagoff.
i don't need to be "told" that something is made in japan. i can observe, with my own eyes, and having followed the culture over the years, that it was, in fact, made in japan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030284
>i realized i didn't care
Regrettable.
>i don't actually think it is.
Neither.
>final form
It almost certainly isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030354
>i honestly couldn't give less of a shit what your opinion is of a cake you've never actually eaten. you have no idea how this cake actually tastes.
No but the extraordinarily loud group of people who smell of shit with a brown ring around their mouth gives me an idea. It's not really Pascal's Wager, and considering I know the recipes I'd wager to not take a bite. I'm sure it's great if you have an affinity for shit however. The shit-eating club is thataway
>>>/vt/
Anyways, shit OP, shit thread, shit posters, shit shitposters, shit eaters, everything smells like shit. I've said my piece and I'm out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030515
>No but the extraordinarily loud group of people who smell of shit with a brown ring around their mouth gives me an idea.
so here you are, having spent a hundred posts and three hours talking about how a cake which you've never tasted even once definitely sucks, pontificating about the contents of a cake whose inside you've never seen, because you don't like some of the people who like the cake. thanks for vomiting your ignorance all over the board. come again.

>everything smells like shit. I've said my piece and I'm out.
imagine having the chutzpah to visit a restaurant, take a dump on the table, then complain that the place smells like shit. good riddance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030550
>so here you are, having spent a hundred posts and three hours talking
Before I go, I've only made 12 posts. I got here roughly two hours go. But godspeed, maybe you and your ad hominems can finally convince people that VTubers are anything but glorified ecelebism and hazardous cockmunching.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030550
Fuck off, retard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030619
there aren't any ad hominems left to make you haven't made yourself. literally everything you've said about vtubers this entire time has been you projecting your experiences as a brainless /v/ cultural warrior onto a cultural phenomenon you neither know nor understand.

>>35030625
no u

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030651
How many yubi stickers do you have on your car?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029573
We're discussing quite obvious things at this point, I don't know what to add.
I will now go back to taking it easy as I was supposed to

[Anonymous No.]

>>35031303
i don't give a shit about hololive and and wouldn't put that sort of shit on my car even if i did.

what do you have on your car?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35031355
OEM paint

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026375
Because it's the same shit as those whores on Livestream, but anime

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995744
Yuki.la is kil

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
>I want to get deeper into otaku culture
What do you mean by that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029275
This.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029554
>who decided that that /jp/ should be a culture board instead of a hobby board.
what's the title of /jp/ again

[Anonymous No.]

>>35032602
Frauding about touhou and not being otaku

[Anonymous No.]

come to NanJ

[Anonymous No.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkBEJNO5tPo
doramas

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030346
>Touhou,
>>>/v/
>Idols,
>>>/mu/
>Japanese Cinema & Television,
>>>/tv/
>VNs,
>>>/v/
>Japanese Learning,
>>>/int/
>Vocaloids,
>>>/mu/

[Anonymous No.]

>>35029368
/jp/ was ruined in 2010

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030121
Moot just wanted to dump all the shit threads like
>that feel when no anime gf ;_;
somewhere other than /a/

[Anonymous No.]

>>35030121
4chan didnt used to have 888 different boards

in the beginning it was explicitly an anime website so all the non-anime weeb crap would go to /jp/ and all the non-anime non-weeb crap would go to /b/

new boards were added over time to address common discussion topics

[Anonymous No.]

Hiroki Azuma wrote that otaku are people who consume so much media that they essentially have those works and their constituents reduced to databases of features and essentially consume new media in the context of being collections of features rather than holistically (but are able to derive full satisfaction form it anyway).

I don't recommend it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35046913
cant speak for others but that sounds like the case for me

[Anonymous No.]

>>35046913
So otaku were the real ironicfags all along
bros....

[Anonymous No.]

>>35051334
otaku are people who have overcome irony and achieved post-ironic sincerity

people who reached irony and stopped are failed otaku

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
by believing in true god
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppiPn3SFoA8&t=119s

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
To be an otaku by definition of the English loanword, you're already there. You're into Japanese subculture stuff. You're a weeb.

To be an otaku in the traditional sense, be sincerely and heavily invested into a singular topic. Any fucking topic. It's geekdom. You don't become an otaku just to belong. In fact chances are you won't even belong here depending on the topic. If you want to heighten this state of investment, I suggest becoming a content creator as opposed to just a consumer. You don't necessarily need to publicize your creations, in fact that should be a secondary objective. With the primary being to make creations, that you yourself enjoy. By nature of your investment, you should find it very easy to find motivation for this. Otaku are highly motivated people.

If you just want to be a /jp/ otaku, just take it easy , lurk moar, and be sincerely interested in topics /jp/ is interested in. Ideally these habits should be followed on any board, but it isn't, and that's why crossboarders are easily targeted here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35046913
Isn't being an Otaku a negative term used in Japan? It used to be associated with mass killers and antisocial outcasts like Tsutomu Miyazaki. Nowadays I think the meaning has changed to describe pwople who are stereotypically nerdy with interests in anime and manga but that clearly wasn't the only thing they were associated with. They were ostracized from society and the national opinion of the Otaku subculture was quite negative, so much so that that word turned into a sort of slur.

[Anonymous No.]

>168
what happened in here

[Anonymous No.]

>>35059653
You can 1:1 replace it with the word "geek" in American culture. Unwashed basement dwellers living with their mothers, to school shooters, to greater acceptance once companies realized this was a group they could market to.

Obviously there's more nuance in the actual subcultures themselves but as a broad view, and especially as a view from society, they're extremely similar.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35059725
Otaku otakus generously offering their dissertations to OP and predictably riled up in the usual Vtuber debate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34995464
>>35015534
I think this is the answer. It's about doing the things you love doing. If you want to get deeper into the culture, just keep doing what you do and you'll eventually find new things. It might even be related, too

[Anonymous No.]

>>35039882
>>Touhou,
>>>>/v/
about that...