About tracing in erotic loli manga...

[Anonymous No.]

Serious question.

Is it really as widespread as some anons make it out to be? I feel as though it's actually just been a very few amount of artists caught tracing over real photos of children, which in-turn triggers backlash from fans and potential legal trouble, since you'd have to have "possessed" CP in order to trace over it.

I recall some artists, like Rustle, were extremely distraught over accusations of tracing, both because he felt it was an attack on his artistic integrity and that he's against actual child exploitation.
I heard Higashiyama Show had a similar falling out with their fanbase, in addition to potential legal issues and job prospects.

How do the authorities in Japan feel about this? Do they see it as something akin to "replicating" real abuse, and therefore making it a product of abuse?
What about the communities and fanbases?

The reason why I'm so concerned over this is because I've always defended loli and other forms of similar expression on the basis that it's all pure fantasy. Works of art crafted by talented and skilled artists and writers who make a career out of appealing to unsavory or degenerate tastes and interests, much to the outrage and dismay of critics.
If there really is a problem with tracing, then it could potentially undermine or compromise that fact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507482
The thing with Rustle was just a meme, since he put cp codewords in his art. Show got in trouble because someone replicated his manga irl I think. Using "references" that is, copying or tracing porn is probably very common. It doesn't have to be illegal porn to become loli art though.

[Anonymous No.]

I've seen some anons claim that it's an "open secret" and that it's "not a big deal".
I disagree.

I find the act of tracing over pre-existing visual assets and claiming it as your own to be a shameful and disappointing 'technique' for an artist to do, unless they're tracing over something they themselves created within the same medium, and to trace over material made from the sexual abuse of real children is, obviously, a step too far.

I've read other posts from community members and fans that emphatically dispute the prevalence of tracing over real CP, claiming that it's "too risky" to go and procure it and risk being found out and investigated by law enforcement, in addition to being an unnecessary step to create good, high quality art, since there exists a plethora of lawful, non-abusive reference material and tools, like anatomy books, reference material by other artists, poseable dolls and 3D models, like DesignDoll, Daz 3D, MMD, and, of course, legal-age petite/lolita JAV models or adult pornography.

[Anonymous No.]

Yeah happens all the time. Check out these pictures that prove it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507548
>Using "references" that is, copying or tracing porn is probably very common.
Is it, though? That doesn't really help..

>It doesn't have to be illegal porn to become loli art though.
That is true, I suppose. Reading that does sort of begin to help set my mind at ease.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507548
>Using "references" that is, copying or tracing porn
But they're not the same thing. To reference something is to observe it, internalize it, and then visually communicate it thereafter. Usually takes multiple attempts or drafts to get it right, as opposed to tracing, which is literally just running a tool over an already-existing image. How is tracing any different from just copying something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507548
>Show got in trouble because someone replicated his manga irl I think.
But didn't he trace over the cover to one of his issues? Was it ever confirmed (or believably alleged) that they referenced or traced over actual CP?

What about other artists who were caught doing this? Are they few and far between? And what happens to the offending "works"?
Are they taken out of circulation?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507654
Man you need to go the fuck back to twitter or whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507683
troll post

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507867
I can deal with loli artists using legal reference material, even if it involves tracing over adults or 3D models.
I just wanna know if it's the majority that does that, as opposed to recreating illegal material.

>>34507548
>The thing with Rustle was just a meme, since he put cp codewords in his art.
Yeah, I heard about that. He did go out of his way to show he didn't trace, even going so far as to outline his entire creative process and even include sketches and blockouts and stuff at the end of his comics, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34508569
It really wasn't. Imagine a loli artist who is a real CP enthusiast. He never traces anything but everything he puts out is a product of that habit. Is this okay? I don't personally care. I'd take greater issue with someone tracing at all than with what they were tracing. It seems to me OP is trying to rationalize things in a way that is going to create more problems for him than it solves. Incidentally you can see that German loli VN for a real world instance of my example. All the girls in that are based off real children, and by children I mean girls who had been in CP. There was even a (worksafe) image showing the resemblance. No tracing though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34509220
>Imagine a loli artist who is a real CP enthusiast.
but such creators are the slim minority, aren't they? The risk involved with dabbling in that type of content would outweigh the benefit.
>He never traces anything but everything he puts out is a product of that habit. Is this okay?
Depends on how you define "product of that habit". If they're directly referencing it in their art, then it can become an issue.
If they can kick the CP habit and still create decent loli art, then it's not really illegal or cause for concern.
The problem area lies in using CP itself.

>I'd take greater issue with someone tracing at all than with what they were tracing.
I take issue with both, but moreso with tracing real shit. It's one thing to be a hack, it's another to use CP as a tool.

>German loli VN for a real world instance of my example. All the girls in that are based off real children, and by children I mean girls who had been in CP. There was even a (worksafe) image showing the resemblance. No tracing though.
I thought they changed their names after legal issues were raised?
And yeah, I saw parts of it. Pretty obvious that the weren't traces.

I'm just trying to figure out what the truth of the matter is. You can't have fiction coexist with actual abuse. It's just not possible, otherwise you might as well not even bother drawing anything and just run it through a filter. The whole purpose of loli is to not harm real kids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34509220
>He never traces anything but everything he puts out is a product of that habit. Is this okay?
If he never traces anything, how can it be a product of an illegal habit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34510008
You know, >>34509220 is right. Why do you have a problem if they did use it? Do you have a problem if they use junior gravure idols as the reference? Do you have a problem if they draw porn based on real people? Do you have a problem if they use high school aged girls as a reference, even if they were still technically underaged?

Do you care that they look at it at all? You're transfixed on them using it as a reference. What if they aren't primarily known for loli art but they are into CP like the Kenshin artist?

Furthermore how the hell would anyone know if it was widespread? Just from a moment's thought, the vast majority of underaged character and loli manga are in reference to anime/manga/videogame characters and other such fictitious beings to begin with, so it's unlikely anything was used in its creation.

>You can't have fiction coexist with actual abuse. The whole purpose of loli is to not harm real kids.
Cool troll post. Go read "schoolgirl in concrete" now while contemplating if any of those manga about lolis streaming themselves doing lewd stuff were based on any real instances on nico or another site.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34510426
>Why do you have a problem if they did use it? Do you have a problem if they use junior gravure idols as the reference? Do you have a problem if they draw porn based on real people? Do you have a problem if they use high school aged girls as a reference, even if they were still technically underaged?
If you're tracing over CP, it's a problem because you're replicating the abuse that lies therein with the original abuse material.
I'm simply asking if it's common for artists to use it in the creation of loli hentai works. I already know that it has happened on a few occasions, with negative consequences for those involved.
My question is if it's a widespread issue. This IS a big deal when it happens because it undermines the reality-fiction divide which allows the content to be legal in the first place. That's why I have such a hard time taking people seriously when they try to downplay or ignore tracing over real shit.

>Do you care that they look at it at all? You're transfixed on them using it as a reference. What if they aren't primarily known for loli art but they are into CP like the Kenshin artist?
Yes, I do care. If they're consuming real CP, then they're breaking the law and participating in a market of material that sexually exploits and victimizes real minors, and it's extremely disappointing when it happens.

>Furthermore how the hell would anyone know if it was widespread? Just from a moment's thought, the vast majority of underaged character and loli manga are in reference to anime/manga/videogame characters and other such fictitious beings to begin with, so it's unlikely anything was used in its creation.
I'm getting mixed answers in this thread. I'm asking here because /jp/ seems to know more about shit like this than /h/ or /b/. I like loli. I see it as a valid form of art, but only if it's fictional.

>Cool troll post.
It's not, though.
It's one thing to be "inspired" by something like that, it's another to implicate it directly within your work. It's not about the idea, it's about the CP.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34510752
>I already know that it has happened on a few occasions, with negative consequences for those involved.
Details?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34510798
>Details?
I'm trying to find the details, but I read about it on a different imageboard that no longer exists.
I believe the artist was shunned by their community over it once it was "confirmed" and they stopped drawing loli shortly thereafter.

My questions remain unanswered.

[Anonymous No.]

most loli artists don't trace because the proportions of IRL girls don't resemble the proportions of most loli characters even a little bit

[Anonymous No.]

>>34511235
I thought it was because it was seen as unethical to base fiction off real-life minors and illegal to trace CP since if you're caught, they can just arrest you for looking at CP?
also
you can still get those "realistic" childlike proportions by using 3D models, which seems to be the new norm.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34511293
one of the entire points of H-manga is that people find anime proportions hotter than real proportions. it turns out that the adults rarely look like real adults and the high schoolers rarely look like high schoolers. there are a few artists who specialize in a "realistic" style but they are very rare.

now, are those realistic people tracing? maybe, but probably not, because as you said, it's quite illegal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507482
>If there really is a problem with tracing, then it could potentially undermine or compromise that fact.
Don't let that ruin what you like. I'm not denying the existence of tracing but it's probably very rare compared to the huge amount of loli art produced. Even if 1% of the art you like were traced then for you they were still fantasy drawing when you saw them. It's a problem with the artist using real CP, not with you liking the art he produced.

I'm more concerned about people using tracing as an easy way to discredit what they don't like. Sadly publicly accusing someone of doing legally reprehensible things is very common these days, and the only thing you can do to defend yourself is spending your time trying to prove your innocence by every means at your disposal against thousands of people convinced that you're the worst human being on the planet.

So if an artist is producing realistic loli you just have to say that he's tracing and he instantly becomes an unskilled hack who likes/produces CP. Then people will start to think the same of other loli artists, which leads to loli art being even more recognized as immoral, and for seemingly good reasons too. Even if in reality those artists simply like 2D little girls and wouldn't ever harm a real child.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34512500
>I'm more concerned about people using tracing as an easy way to discredit what they don't like. Sadly publicly accusing someone of doing legally reprehensible things is very common these days, and the only thing you can do to defend yourself is spending your time trying to prove your innocence by every means at your disposal against thousands of people convinced that you're the worst human being on the planet.
this is pretty much what's been eating at me this entire time.
The fact of the matter is, is that tracing real CP doesn't provide a "better product" in the end and carries with it a bigger burden than its worth, especially when so many safe, legal standard techniques and methods exist for creating perfectly fictional content.

I've been doing a lot of internal thinking on the subject, and my current dilemma on lolicon is "if there's even an ounce of reasonable risk that this material is a derivative from actual CP, does that risk outweigh the value that loli supposedly brings?
Should we ban 2D pornographic artwork out of risk that it may be traced?"
My answer to that question always hindered on how I'd go about convincing myself if I were on the 'anti camp'.

I guess it's not really a viable approach to the issue of dealing with child sex abuse material ONLY if the material being made by artists is completely and wholly fictional. The objective, apparent, and provable lack of a real child component or link is why it's even legal in Japan, same as Denmark and the United States.

>So if an artist is producing realistic loli you just have to say that he's tracing and he instantly becomes an unskilled hack who likes/produces CP. Then people will start to think the same of other loli artists, which leads to loli art being even more recognized as immoral, and for seemingly good reasons too. Even if in reality those artists simply like 2D little girls and wouldn't ever harm a real child.
This is literally a poisonous mindset to have, because when you look at art as though it's real, it becomes real, which is a problem.

My question is,
Is it the case, or is there any valid, non-biased reason to suspect that it is?
And how could I convince myself or someone else that isn't the case?

I suppose one could look at it the same way we look at 'real' porn, wherein you could have petite, child-like adult pornstars who can be "proven" to be adults, just like an artist could prove that he didn't trace by showing their work, much like what Rustle did after people began accusing him of stuff, before ultimately quitting.

This is all so stressful to think about... I just wanna masturbate to cartoons...

[Anonymous No.]

>>34513720
>Is it the case, or is there any valid, non-biased reason to suspect that it is?
Maybe? Like anything, traced images of loli were probably made at least once, probably more, but again I think that's very rare.
If it was a common thing then a lot of artists would be in prison right now.

The only case where a tracing claim by someone on the Internet would be at least plausible is if he brings a solid proof of it.
Like linking to CP content looking very much like a certain piece of art (which implies looking at CP first to recognize the similarities, for "reasearch purposes" of course).
Of maybe if a girl used as a model when she was younger decides to file a claim to the police, but then it's up to a judge to determine if the artist is guilty, not to people debating on the Internet.

If someone makes such a claim without any evidence (because he "can't post it since that's illegal" or something) then there's litteraly no reason to believe it.
Anyone can accuse anybody of anything, without proof it means nothing.
You could say that there's no point of making false accusations against someone, unfortunately people are incredibly creative when it comes to destroying what they don't like even if it means ruining someone's life with harassment.

Saying that "it looks too real" as "proof" just means that the artist is... skilled? There's plenty of artists making extremely detailed drawings of dragons, aliens, spaceships and so on and those were definitely not traced.
Drawing a young girl really isn't harder in comparison.

>And how could I convince myself or someone else that isn't the case?
That's taking the problem the wrong way.
You don't need to convice yourself that it isn't because it's the role of those claiming that it is to convince you in the first place.
If they can't do that (no proof, no reason to believe) then you shouldn't be convinced.

>I just wanna masturbate to cartoons...
Well the whole tracing problem really just applies to the realistic drawings, but loli art doesn't necessarily aim to look real anyway.
So no problems with those if it worries you that much.
And personally I think that those are the best pictures since the artist can be fully creative and do what they want without limiting themselves in the name of realism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34514827
>Saying that "it looks too real" as "proof" just means that the artist is... skilled? There's plenty of artists making extremely detailed drawings of dragons, aliens, spaceships and so on and those were definitely not traced.
>Drawing a young girl really isn't harder in comparison.
this is true.. god it's crazy how you forget to think critically while so wrapped up in this type of thing.
The burden should always lie on the accuser, not the accused, so therefore there's really no reason to suspect that, outside of a few widely-corroborated accounts of 'tracing', it really isn't that much of a problem since this seems like something people would have jumped on ages ago if it were even an issue.
But that doesn't mean the accused doesn't have a responsibility to show their work, not necessarily to rebut accusations (thereby lending inadvertent credence to them), but just to do so. I follow a lot of artists on Pixiv and they all seem like very talented people who act and create content responsibly.

>Well the whole tracing problem really just applies to the realistic drawings
I guess, but that's not to say that you should suspect artists who make stuff like that of tracing.

I just get so caught up in the "it can be real so assume it is real" type meme. I now see that such a mindset is reflective of an implicit bias that the art community has an obligation to refute by simply being mere 'art' and not invoking real abuse material, which it seems to do fine now that I look into it more.

[Anonymous No.]

haha these retards who don't know how to draw won't even suspect that copying from a photo is as easy as tracing lmaooo even on MSpaint

[Anonymous No.]

>>34515265
>haha these retards who don't know how to draw won't even suspect that copying from a photo is as easy as tracing lmaooo even on MSpaint
that doesn't mean it's right or okay to do either of those things with CP when drawing loli art, hence why virtually no artists do it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34516323
>hence why virtually no artists do it.
prove it

[Anonymous No.]

>>34515265
>copying from a photo
Isn't that just using a reference? Don't artists usually buy dolls or pictures of people posing so they can use as reference?

>>34516402
I think the burden of proof falls on you, anon, since there's that whole thing of "innocent until proven guilty" and that proving that someone did something is easier than proving that they didn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34516402
what's there to prove? aside from a few specific instances where the artists were called out or arrested, there's really nothing to go off of.
It all comes down to "is it worth it for me to use this material for my work?"
The answer is no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34516619
>>34516619
>Isn't that just using a reference? Don't artists usually buy dolls or pictures of people posing so they can use as reference?
Some time ago, some anons asked Ray K, the artist behind the game Teaching Feeling what he used for Sylvie as reference.
He said he used legal-age teenagers, a 3D model, and, for whatever the fuck reason, granny images. Probably for the color reference with her silvery hair.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507482
Possession of CP wasn't illegal until 2014, and this wasn't enforced until 2015. There is no reason to doubt that tracing or referencing of CP was being done in the period before the law was introduced, as there was basically no risk at that time. 2014 isn't even a decade ago, erotic loli manga has existed for far far longer than that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34516802
>Possession of CP wasn't illegal until 2014, and this wasn't enforced until 2015.
Yes, but receipt, creation, and distribution were, in fact, illegal since the late 80's. And if you were referencing real CP images in your artwork, it was a sign that you may also be doing other shit as well.
>There is no reason to doubt that tracing or referencing of CP was being done in the period before the law was introduced, as there was basically no risk at that time.
If they caught you trying to access a child pornography website, they could (and still did) bust you on receipt grounds.
>2014 isn't even a decade ago, erotic loli manga has existed for far far longer than that.
That doesn't mean anything, really. It was still difficult to find, with LEA working to prosecute distributors and possessors of the content.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507548
>Show got in trouble because someone replicated his manga irl I think.

No, that was Quzilax and it sucks because his h-manga were insanely awesome. Show was caught tracing out of things like swimsuit and fashion magazines, not CP. So he lost his integrity as an artist but nobody is calling for him to be arrested or whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34516985
>it was a sign that you may also be doing other shit as well.
Like what, specifically?
>>34516985
>If they caught you trying to access a child pornography website, they could (and still did) bust you on receipt grounds.
Then use Tor behind 8 proxies and don't get caught, or ask the weird guy in your doujin circle who has been hoarding the stuff since before 1999 (the actual year CP became illegal) to hook you up
>>34516985
>LEA working to prosecute distributors and possessors of the content.
They wouldn't bother prosecuting possessors because possession wasn't illegal prior to 2014

[Anonymous No.]

>>34515265
In manga, that would be considered tracing. It doesn't matter if you are literally tracing or not, you're copying another artist's vision and claiming it as your own.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517106
>No, that was Quzilax and it sucks because his h-manga were insanely awesome.
Oh yeah! I remember that! Duuude that was so unfortunate. Didn't he swear off drawing rapey stuff as a result of that? Like he felt like he was in some way responsible for the misfortune that had to happen to that little girl?
I personally wouldn't blame myself. If someone's crazy enough or unhinged to the point where they're going to rape someone, it's not your fault. You can't blame yourself for the deliberate actions of a crazy person, just like id Software with Doom and Columbine.

>Show was caught tracing out of things like swimsuit and fashion magazines, not CP. So he lost his integrity as an artist
yeah.. true. Hopefully it stays that way. Didn't Show also miss out on a non-H publication deal as a result of that?

>>34517150
>Like what, specifically?
Distributing and receiving it, both of which were crimes prior to 2014.

>>34517150
>Then use Tor behind 8 proxies and don't get caught, or ask the weird guy in your doujin circle who has been hoarding the stuff since before 1999 (the actual year CP became illegal) to hook you up
Implying they were smart enough to disable JavaScript. And even then - Tor is only partially effective. Fingerprinting technology was getting pretty advanced during the late 2000s and early 2010s, so much so that users could be fingerprinted outside of the Tor client. Those zero-day exploits were closely guarded secrets until they were inevitably found, patched, and replaced by something more elusive.
>They wouldn't bother prosecuting possessors because possession wasn't illegal prior to 2014
But they were, though. If you were caught with it on your phone or laptop while at the airport, or on your person or if you attempted to import it into the country, they'd get you for that.
I forget the shoddy reasoning offered for why it took them so long to make 'mere possession' a crime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517349
>If you were caught with it on your phone or laptop while at the airport, or on your person or if you attempted to import it into the country, they'd get you for that.
Well, I suppose they would and justifiably so, bringing a hard drive of CP through a security check is a level of stupidity that's dangerous for the rest of society.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517452
those were just a few specific examples. lots of people in contemporary Japanese society hated CP, hence why it was illegal to begin with.
That's the saving grace behind loli material, the "no child victim" element.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517510
>why it was illegal to begin with.
Sure but that doesn't mean nothing illegal ever happens, or that someone will get arrested when it does happen.
>That's the saving grace behind loli material, the "no child victim" element.
That would depend on what is meant by "child victim", which is no doubt a huge point of contention. There's loads of authors that have referenced jr idols or other real individuals for their illustrations and don't hide it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517349
>tor
>fingerprinting
Anon...

[Anonymous No.]

>>34517665
>Sure but that doesn't mean nothing illegal ever happens, or that someone will get arrested when it does happen.
It mitigates it significantly, and considering how Japanese society is exceptionally law-abiding.

>There's loads of authors that have referenced jr idols or other real individuals for their illustrations and don't hide it.
Yeah, that's considered unethical and exploitive, depending on how far they go. I know you're not allowed to make porn of actual kids in Japan, though, so I think they get away with it because they're referencing a parodied character, rather than the child depicted.
In any case, this isn't happening anywhere near as much, though, right? It's been awhile since I've seen anything referencing that.
The "Junior Idol" thing and lolicon seem pretty distinct and separate from one another, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34519352
I bet you're one of those retards who use the UOHHHH meme and then argue on Twitter about how lolis aren't kids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34519480
???
wtf is that supposed to mean?

are you implying I'm wrong or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507482
>This thread
you are all pedophiles lmao

[Anonymous No.]

>>34519352
>The "Junior Idol" thing and lolicon seem pretty distinct and separate from one another, though.
Not all that much. Many loli artists drew junior idol, or character in poses and costumes inspired by them, or settings that explore the lives of junior idols, etc.
That's not to say that all of them do that, but when they do, no one seems to care.
https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/88420229
Takku drew this and no one was mad at him. If he were a western artist, the reception would be much different.
Making a big deal about what other people draw isn't much of a thing in Japan.

>>34519585
You're posting a hag, so I have a hard time trusting you.

[Anonymous No.]

OP here

>>34519844
>Making a big deal about what other people draw isn't much of a thing in Japan.
I only care about whether or not real CP or real minors are implicated by a majority of artists and whether or not they all trace, or more than a slim majority of them, trace CP.
That's it.

I can't tell if the people saying they do are trolls because it's always "they do, just trust us bro" while falsely citing the problematic legal environment behind CP "possession".

>Takku drew this and no one was mad at him. If he were a western artist, the reception would be much different.
That's idol? I can't tell, but it's clearly not traced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34519352
>It mitigates it significantly, and considering how Japanese society is exceptionally law-abiding.
What? A huge chunk of Japan's massive doujin subculture is all about independent artists peddling artwork of characters and franchises they love but do not own the intellectual property to. This is technically illegal. Nobody cares about this in practice (except Nintendo)
>Yeah, that's considered unethical and exploitive, depending on how far they go
Cool opinion
>The "Junior Idol" thing and lolicon seem pretty distinct and separate from one another, though.
They play off each other, there's loads of loli comics where the jr idol gravure photography thing is the whole premise or a main theme.
Lolicon isn't a monolith so it'd be wrong to say that everyone is in on it, there's a variety of artists who draw loli and they have different interests. Some of them happen to be pedophiles that know how to draw. It's simple as that.

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/20344364 this a photostudy of a jr idol by the jap who originated the UOOOHH meme, he's done many of these before, but still gets to work on anime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34520771
>I only care about whether or not real CP or real minors are implicated by a majority of artists
Why? What difference does that make?
And how would anyone know for sure without the majority of artists admitting they do? Even if it does look exactly like something from junior idols/actual CP, it's possible that this one artist has never seen the actual content and is just being inspired by another artist who did see it.
Japanese artists love to follow trends, after all, so it'd be possible for one to draw something he saw on CP, and a dozen others to copy him because they liked the drawing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34519844
>Many loli artists drew junior idol, or character in poses and costumes inspired by them, or settings that explore the lives of junior idols, etc.
But exploring a concept or basing your fictional premise off of something like that isn't the same as tracing real CP. I could write a loli doujin about what it's like to live in a 16th century brothel and that's fine because it's entirely fictional
I wouldn't go so far as to call gravure 'Idol' photography CP necessarily, but from what I've seen, it certainly isn't appropriate and should be banned.

>>34520811
>What? A huge chunk of Japan's massive doujin subculture is all about independent artists peddling artwork of characters and franchises they love but do not own the intellectual property to. This is technically illegal. Nobody cares about this in practice (except Nintendo)
Yeah, but that's not a valid comparison. There's a difference between tracing actual CP and copyright/trademark shit. Besides, that's the copyright owner's responsibility to deal with their characters or IPs being parodied in pornography without permission.

>this a photostudy of a jr idol by the jap who originated the UOOOHH meme, he's done many of these before, but still gets to work on anime.
So this is a reference piece.. it's not pornographic, though, it is unsettling. Are you sure this was based on a photograph of a real minor and not just a drawing?

>>34520923
>Why? What difference does that make?
It makes all the difference!
Have you not been reading the thread?? Tracing over or referencing actual CP is a form of replication. This isn't some retarded Western ideal either - Japanese artists and consumers have all defended their loli art on the grounds that's it's harmless free speech and expression, where no child is abused or exploited. That completely changes if you're tracing over CP.

>Even if it does look exactly like something from junior idols/actual CP, it's possible that this one artist has never seen the actual content and is just being inspired by another artist who did see it.
That's completely fine, so long as the originating work isn't abuse material.

So what's my answer? Is it actually a problem?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34520923
>Japanese artists love to follow trends, after all, so it'd be possible for one to draw something he saw on CP, and a dozen others to copy him because they liked the drawing.
That's still not the same thing as tracing or referencing CP. You can see something like that and "be inspired" by it, but so long as you're not using it as reference or tracing over it, you're fine. One can be inspired by anything.

So nobody has an answer for me on this? Am I to assume that artists use legal, non-exploitive, non-criminal reference material such as 3D models or JAV shit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521107
>So this is a reference piece.. it's not pornographic, though, it is unsettling. Are you sure this was based on a photograph of a real minor and not just a drawing?
Yes? Her name is Hazuki Kimura, one of her earlier jr idol sets. I don't have receipts for this since his twitter account has long since been nuked, but mammoth openly talked about how much he liked this particularly girl on his twitter account.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521107
>Have you not been reading the thread??
But there are so many long posts...
I just looked at the pictures of the lolis and replied to one of the last posts on the thread...

>>34521171
> Am I to assume that artists use legal, non-exploitive, non-criminal reference material such as 3D models or JAV shit?
Yes.
It's also possible that they use random kids they see on the street/young actresses on TV/girls on children's clothes catalogs as reference material.

[Anonymous No.]

The truth is, you'll never know. It's similar to how a good amount of 3D porn has trafficked or coerced women and men (latter especially in the case of gay JAV). Of course a lot of it is consensual too, but how can you really know who has consented and who is a victim? You can't. Same sort of deal. You'll never be able to tell who has traced CP and who hasn't. Or someone who has hurt real children and is using that as their reference. It's up to you to decide whether that goes against your morals, or be like the majority of men who have no empathy and fap anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521416
are you
>>34521269 >>34520923 and >>34520811?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521688
Just >>34520923

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521171
>>So nobody has an answer for me on this? Am I to assume that artists use legal, non-exploitive, non-criminal reference material such as 3D models or JAV shit?
Yes.
ruffle was outed for tracing the cover of a common magazine and sizing everything down to have it fit loli. There was a thread not too long ago about him and how he went blind.
You can buy any magazine and use it as a basis. Anyone who can draw can draw something over in whatever size they want, however they want.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521764
>There was a thread not too long ago about him and how he went blind.
on /a/

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521171
>So nobody has an answer for me on this? Am I to assume that artists use legal, non-exploitive, non-criminal reference material such as 3D models or JAV shit?
Basically yes, the only answers you'll ever get ITT are of artists who have used jr idols, softcore child photography, and other legal source for references of children (flickr, pinterest, loitering near schools), there's loads of them:
Mammoth/dorontabi I've already mentioned
Bubukka has done lots of illustrations based off real junior idols https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/?tags=bubukka+laura_b&commit=Search
This random artist literally has his reference collection as one of his pinned posts https://pawoo.net/@japonism3234
Haguhagu would probably need to own a copy or look up references of or a jr idol bluray to be able to design a cover like this https://twitter.com/RinjyuCircus/status/1386677983813857282
Can you look at this illustration and say with a straight face that this artist doesn't harmlessly loiter near elementary schools? https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/87301907
>>34521598
Also this, nobody would be willing to disclose how they know what was traced from CP, not to some anon, and certainly not to the authorities, I'm sure they already get flooded by tips from people who think all lolicon illustrations are basically CP. Suppose I told you to open sadpanda and look up the top panel of page 22 of Mochi's "Junketsu no Device", would you believe it if I told you that panel was traced from CP?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34507691
>Is it, though? That doesn't really help..
Well yeah, duh? If you're an artist on any sort of level, you're constantly drawing real people. Unless you're the second coming of Mozart, you're going to be constantly using references to hone your skills.

[Anonymous No.]

Just as other have stated, there's no clear way of telling who has used cp, Junior Idol or their neighbor's kids photos as reference, tracing or whatever and who hasn't unless the artist mentioned it themselves, like mammoth has done>>34520811, or if a person just so happens to find evidence of tracing, like what happened to Omaru Gyuunuu last year and the amateur AV he used as base for his drawings.
And if the artist were to deny it you'll just have to take their word for it because who'll openly admit to it.
Also, this might just be my stupid way of thinking about it, wouldn't someone have to be knowledgeable about cp material before coming to the conclusion that an artist is tracing or even referencing such material, and if such person were to know, would they even denounce the artist for it? Ignore it? Maybe support him? I only mention this because I remember that in /a/ some anons used to mention Gerupin and Mochi when the topic of tracing came up, then looking up their works and finding comments acknowledging it as a jest "we know you know" kind of way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522055
>page 22 of Mochi's "Junketsu no Device
U-Uoh...

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522055
>Mammoth/dorontabi I've already mentioned Bubukka has done lots of illustrations based off real junior idols
yeah but those aren't traces of CP. Implicating the likenesses or names of actual minors is grounds for illegality, I thought? Didn't Japan criminalize that outright or are they using some sort of "parody" loophole?
I know the Japanese government bans traces of CP altogether as "reproductions" since Mochi (or one of those cunts) was arrested for it and it was pulled after it was confirmed, I recall reading.

>This random artist literally has his reference collection as one of his pinned posts
Those almost look like they could be petite adults almost, but I could be wrong.

>Haguhagu would probably need to own a copy or look up references of or a jr idol bluray to be able to design a cover like this
are you sure about that? These look like they were blocked out, not referenced too hard.

>Can you look at this illustration and say with a straight face that this artist doesn't harmlessly loiter near elementary schools?
Yes, actually, I can because this wouldn't be hard to mimic with a 3D model. That's also an unusual, reaching assumption to make, and I don’t think they'll just let people take candid photos of minors in public, especially at a school.

>>34522077
>Well yeah, duh? If you're an artist on any sort of level, you're constantly drawing real people. Unless you're the second coming of Mozart, you're going to be constantly using references to hone your skills.
So long as it's not real CP, I guess. But Jr. Idols really have no reason to exist.

>>34522138
>Mochi when the topic of tracing came up
Weren't they arrested because of their shit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522575
>Implicating the likenesses or names of actual minors is grounds for illegality, I thought?
Sure maybe? Does that change anything about what mammoth did?
>Those almost look like they could be petite adults almost, but I could be wrong.
You are wrong.
>I don’t think they'll just let people take candid photos of minors in public
As if spycams or telephoto lenses ever stopped anybody
>I know the Japanese government bans traces of CP altogether as "reproductions" since Mochi (or one of those cunts) was arrested for it and it was pulled after it was confirmed, I recall reading.
https://www.melonbooks.co.jp/detail/detail.php?product_id=225378
https://fantia.jp/fanclubs/13794

[Anonymous No.]

Wow, it sure is otaku culture and/or vtubers over here.
What are the mods doing...

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522653
>https://www.melonbooks.co.jp/detail/detail.php?product_id=225378
>https://fantia.jp/fanclubs/13794
okay so if it's still being sold, why is it being sold if it was confirmed to be CP??

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522653
>? Does that change anything about what mammoth did?
From what I can tell, he only drew something that was already legal. I don't think any of the nudes he drew were from real CP.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522716
>why is it being sold if it was confirmed to be CP??
?? How should I know? This thread has gone on long enough, I don't know what else to tell you.
>>34522742
>From what I can tell, he only drew something that was already legal. I don't think any of the nudes he drew were from real CP.
Never said any of it was illegal
>jr idols, softcore child photography, and other legal source for references of children

[Anonymous No.]

is this the thread?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522716
Maybe Japanese people just don't care.
Maybe the cops didn't find the actual picture/video it was based on, so they couldn't arrest him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522759
what thread? is it being talked about or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522767
>Maybe Japanese people just don't care.
that's not true. They've arrested people for tracing in the past.
I'm filing a JP police report against this title.

This is unacceptable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522792
So you just take the word of random anons from the internet? I suppose this is why nobody gets anything done.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522792
Maybe they compared it to the picture and decided that it wasn't traced, just coincidentally similar.
>I'm filing a JP police report against this title.
Can you write Japanese?
I have a feeling that you've been slacking on your nihongo studies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34522852
You can file criminal police reports with Japanese authorities as a foreigner if you feel that the crime is occurring within Japanese borders.
I've done it before with CP sites that were based out of Japan, which then saw the sites seized within weeks.

How common is this shit??? What the fuck is this!!

If Mochi is going to trace real CP and these fucks are going to sell his shit, then fuck that.
Report filed.

If you hate CP consumers, report the listings and mention the panel as a trace. Tracing CP is ILLEGAL in Japan, for a good bloody reason.
This would be a good manga if not for this abusive panel.
http://www.internethotline.jp/