Early Gensokyo

[Anonymous No.]

I'm still relatively new to Touhou and have been slowly and steadily consuming the media, but Dolls in Pseudo-Paradise has really captivated me on several, and I wanted to ask about it.

The PC-98 games all felt very light-hearted and goofy, and while Embodiment of Scarlet Devil kept that tone mostly, this album which came alongside it just feels so completely out of left field. The story of how DiPP's story was "rediscovered" is interesting, but what exactly was meant, or rather intended by it? Did ZUN intend Gensokyo to be much more "evil youkai" focused originally? It's said that in later reprints of this album the story was cut entirely, is it because ZUN outright regrets this interpretation or just coincidental?

Early interpretations and plans for what Gensokyo, and Touhou as a whole, was meant to be just seem so fascinating to me.

[Anonymous No.]

ZUN should've stopped at PCB and just compose cd music instead

[Anonymous No.]

Based effort poster.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499415
HERETIC

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499423
lurk more.

[Anonymous No.]

DiPP never quite felt like a part of Gensokyos story (at least in terms of Touhou lore) and more like ZUNs attempt at a spooky story. Like the kind you hear people telling during a camping trip.
I wonder if he was just embarassed by his early writing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34503421
The only things I think ZUN would really have good reason to be embarrassed over (from early touhou) are the tracing and using manga characters. But I mean, early Touhou was basically a flash game equivalent, so I can understand how he didn't think too much of stuff like that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34504822
Why do people think Touhou is "better" than that now? It's still a doujin game series and ZUN is still influenced by whatever he's into. The next game could be full of vtuber expies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
I think DiPP was the result of Gensokyo transitioning to from merely a fantastic land outside of a fixed time or space, to a land with an increasingly Romantic character to it.
You can actually see this progression occur in Touhou 4-5, especially with the music becoming more symphonic and introduction of characters with Romantic styling like Yuuka and Alice.
DiPP is the first attempt to really put a definite aesthetic to Gensokyo, both through the legend of the "honest men" and through ZUN's new approach to orchestral MIDI compositions to set the Romantic tone. It also reinforces the idea of traditional Western mythology and culture having syncretic representation in Gensokyo, where previously it had no fixed presence.
As for the sci-fi and contemporary elements of Touhou, that wound up being represented in Seihou to some extent, as well as the other music albums and other media.

>Did ZUN intend Gensokyo to be much more "evil youkai" focused originally?
Although DiPP's tone is dark I think one should take into account:
1. These are outsiders, implied to be thieves, in a land which escapes their comprehension. Their whole experience is as surreal as it is horrible, and isn't far off from the consequences of unwelcome humans who do not belong to the Human Village.
2. IMHO Touhou 6, 7, and 8 are actually relatively dark and serious plot-wise, even down to the lighting and scenery of many stages, though this is tempered by the cute-em up aesthetic and the seeming safety of the spell-card system. I believe these games were written up in the context that DiPP laid out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34504822
>But I mean, early Touhou was basically a flash game equivalent
Not to put down flash games, but only a handful of flash games approached level of competency in music, art, mechanics, and game performance found Touhou 3-5. Maybe more for Touhou 2. This can at least be partly blamed the limitations of flash in the browser vs. running relatively low-level on the OS with dedicated graphic and sound systems, but that was less of an issue by the end of the 00s.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
ZUN's a big fan of Agatha Christie and the original DiPP story was his attempt at writing a And Then There Were None style murder mystery with a twist ending.

Anyways both versions of DiPP are interesting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34508130
>IMHO Touhou 6, 7, and 8 are actually relatively dark and serious plot-wise
Really? I think they are kind of dark as well, but not for plot reasons. The atmosphere of early touhou games just feels more otherworldly and lonely. That might be because of both early-gensokyo just being so old now, coming from a time before internet was widespread, and the very low cast of characters and info on the world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34512941
I get what you're saying, and especially the ambience is of a much darker tone.
Though the internet was widely used among young adult nerds in both Japan and the USA in 2000, though there wasn't much interconnect until much later. ZUN even released bugfix patches for the games on his website.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
>Early interpretations and plans for what Gensokyo, and Touhou as a whole, was meant to be just seem so fascinating to me.
Early as in PC-98 to pre-10s early or just early in general?

[Anonymous No.]

too soon

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521553
Pretty sure he's referring to the abrupt stylistic change between Touhou 5 and Touhou 6, and along with stuff released at the time.
The first 5 games did very little world-building in Gensokyo, or at least much that was cohesive between the games. Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka, and Alice were basically imported as fresh slates, so they don't do much to form a connection.
For example, does 幻夢界 (World of Fantasy) from Touhou 2 exist in modern Gensokyo? If it does, how is it reached? Do the residents from that game still live there? And how is it related to Mima and Marisa's domain?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34526866
What makes Yuuka and Alice fresh slates compared to what had been built up before?

[Anonymous No.]

<span class="sjis">　　　　　　　>>34499423
　　　　　　　　 ∧∧
　　　　　　　　（　´Д｀） >Based
　　　　　　　　　　 　 　 　 　ｌヽ ＋
　　　　　　　　　　　∧＿∧ ｌ 」＋
.　 ＿＿__　　　　 ∩ （　´∀｀）∥Revere /jp/, expel the niwaka
　（　　 　 ）　　　　＼_ 　 　 　 つ
　｜　|　｜　　　　　 ｜ ｜　|~
　（＿_)＿）　　　　　 （_＿）＿）[/spoiler]

[Anonymous No.]

>>34528962
Not him but from the 'setting' standpoint neither of them (or Marisa for that matter) are particularly connected with their PC-98 incarnations. From what I recall there are no mentions of Makai, Mugenkan, any of the paths or methods through which they got to both those places, none of the other characters and similar. Best you have is Alice lugging that grimoire around with her and both Yuuka and our protagonists knowing each other. As far as personality is concerned Alice doesn't seem much connected with her younger/alternate self while Yuuka has more or less pronounced bits from her sparse (and relatively basic) dialogues, her Mystic Square profile and what little there was in her Seihou appearance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34521553
Embodiment of Scarlert Devil - Imperishable Night at the latest, though leaning to the earlier stuff there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34534884
I'm him and I agree

[Anonymous No.]

>>34549789
ok.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
From what I know of the early DiPP story and considering Flandre's theme, ZUN was simply a massive fan of the novel "Ten Little Niggers" (later renamed as "Ten Little Indians" and then took on the name of the play "And then there were none" そして誰もいなくなった
The initial story was more than just inspired from the novel, it's basically the same concept. And early Gensokyo certain was kinda lighthearted, sure, but you had also Yuuka saying shit like "Genocide just another game", Reimu being legitimately tortured in SoEW in case of a bad ending or Shinki leveling Makai during her fight with the protagonist, or the fact that Reimu originally was completely alone in a desolated land, her shrine was destroyed by the forces of evil and she had to fight against the motherfucking Angel of Death, Sariel. Also, songs like Complete Darkness or Infinite Being certainly leave a strong, powerful and one-sided impression, a bit like Nuclear Fusion would much later in the future.
If anything, later Touhou definitely feels more "neutral" in a way. Things are not so black-and-white anymore, as plots like UFO (where the final boss can hardly be called "evil" at all) or WBaWC where it's an outright war between two sides, both of which have a point when it comes to how you should live your life and that it's preferable to seek a middle ground between both options.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34574502
PC-98 generally has a lot of 'tonal whiplash' moments because he was likely just doing whatever came to mind without any grand plan behind it. End of Daylight is a sombre, almost melancholic track but it's followed up by Reimu mistaking Meira's challenge as a marriage proposal (which could be referencing Madou Monogatari or something else in the same vein for all I know), completely breaking her serious demeanor. Similarly for all their smack talk, the climactic boss theme and what does look like Makai burning to the ground, Mystic Square's endings just show Shinki with a cartoonish bonk telling everyone "Alright you win fair and square now please leave". This disparity between dialogues and aftermaths specifically continues into Windows too of course, Yuyuko being a great example. Based on the themes (Ultimate Truth, Border of Life) and the acerbic pre-fight dialogue you'd think they were going to slaughter each other but when all is said and done everyone's having a banquet or tea party. This is why I don't really think some of the more extreme statements like the famous genocide comment should be taken completely in earnest.
Nevertheless it's interesting that even with Sariel or Konngara who have no dialogue or any real information about them minus their names, the entire impression of their 'character' comes from the sprites, backgrounds and music, and this is enough to make them decently memorable. Since they don't even show up in the endings the serious impression they give off during the fights is mostly self-contained, like all of HRtP really.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
I think Gensokyo is gray at all times, except the written works usually only focus on an aspect instead of the whole picture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34576321
I agree, but I have nothing to add right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34528962
They're the same, but not the same.
They are Yuuka and Alice, but they're almost separate characters aside from them knowing Reimu, Marisa, etc. Unless hinted at, PC-98 is almost like a separate universe.

[Anonymous No.]

not yet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
Why was early Gensokyo so edgy?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34534884
Makai is mentioned somewhere or other as being the birthplace of Patchy’s officially unnamed familiar, but I believe that’s the only time any of those places have been mentioned in the ‘new canon’.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34602045
>edgy
It was certainly darker, but not overly dark.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34602178
My phrasing wasn't quite precise but yes, it's also where Byakuren was sealed away. Regardless it seems to have little to no relation to PC-98 Makai and I namely meant that it has no real relation to Windows Alice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34608700
PC98 Makai is Windows Makai. You see the same burning city in MS and UFO. for example. Reimu is also surprised when Minamitsu mentions it, because she recognizes it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34602178
>Makai is mentioned somewhere or other as being the birthplace of Patchy’s officially unnamed familiar
I misread that the first time.
Koa?

[Anonymous No.]

Early Windows Touhou was much more surreal and dreamy than it is now. We knew barely anything about Gensokyo, the incidents were a much less specific but bigger in scope. After characters appeared in a game, they barely showed up again and kept that mysterious air. I don't think we could have kept that surreal tone as the series gained more entries and characters. Eventually Gensokyo gained enough places to feel like a more defined concrete place and enough characters with agendas to do more down-to-earth things. The introduction of the Moriya shrine is probably the turning point. Suwako, Kanako, and Sanae are far more down-to-earth and focused on concrete things than Reimu is. Shit, we don't even know who or what Reimu's patron god is, while the Moriyas literally run their shrine like a business. Even Sanae herself is an outside world transplant, from a far more concrete and non-surreal place.

It should be pretty telling that the casts of EoSD, PCB, and IN have so many more fan interpretations, memes, and other stuff. People often attribute that to them just having more time to accrue that stuff, but I think another major factor is that we just didn't know much about them. Meanwhile the modern characters have fully defined backstories and defined goals, agendas, and characters. I don't think the common refrain that ZUN leaves things up in the air to the fans to work with is really true anymore. Characters in Touhou are now clearly defined the moment they show up. Incidents now happen because someone very specifically is trying to do something, rather than someone just causing something to happen and fucking something up.

If anything, I'm impressed at how Touhou smoothly managed the tone shift. I can't say if either the early oneiric tone or the more defined one are better, I like them both.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34621726
>Shit, we don't even know who or what Reimu's patron god is
We don't even know Reimu's lineage other than she 'might' be the 13th generation Shrine Maiden of the Hakurei and it'll probably stay that way.

It's no mystery ZUN has built on the vagueness of not having a proper established background and worked it into the canon. Marisa has commented a few times how even she finds Reimu a little creepy with how nothing really makes sense about her background, lineage and abilities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34621726
ZUN said that MoF was made when he figured out what he wanted to do with the series after taking a break from it. That's why it's a soft reboot. Also, I think ZUN wasn't as serious with it during early Windows. Characters are generally sillier, one example being Remilia causing EoSD out of pure boredom and Yuyuko causing PCB out of morbid curiosity. PC98 was definitely a lot sillier, but that stayed with the series until about PoFV.
>>34622496
>Marisa has commented a few times how even she finds Reimu a little creepy with how nothing really makes sense about her background, lineage and abilities.
Was this in a manga? I don't recall her ever saying such in the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34611653
That is a possibility. The things you mention as well as Byakuren borrowing Shinki's spell might be a tacit, 'soft' acknowledgement that it's the same Makai. It's not explored much either way and the MS cast gets no direct mention.
>>34624719
PoFV is an outlier overall, likely because ZUN wanted to capture that Phantasmagoria word he likes. I can't even tell if it's more or less serious than the rest of the games half the time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34621726
>Incidents now happen because someone very specifically is trying to do something, rather than someone just causing something to happen and fucking something up.
That feels to be more the case in some of the fighters, but I agree. Characters early on had more wiggle room, but that didn't necessarily mean it ended being good room since most of the memes were shit or long since forgotten.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34602045
Nope

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>34639937
>Early Windows Era
>Early Modern Windows Era
Just call it "MoF to UFO" , christ

[Anonymous No.]

>>34639937
I wish I didn't have to reset my computer. This font looks fucking ugly now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34647998
This edit is a bit of a mess

[Anonymous No.]

>>34647998
What was ZUN doing during "The Void" era?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34653003
Starting his grunt work for Taito.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34655959
He still worked there during EoSD and PCB, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34657369
From 98 all the way up until 2007, so yeah.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34647998
Gen 1 is 6-9.5, gen 2 is 10-13.5, gen 3 is 14+

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658254
Alright, I'll redo it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
I'm pretty sure even the EoSD manual talks about Gensokyo being dangerous.

PC-98 eastern land != Gensokyo, it's too different and too silly. It was a place ZUN "invented" by pulling in tropes purely from otaku stuff he was into. EoSD also features this, but not near as much. Basically there is reason ZUN called Windows a knew blank slate/said please forget about the first five games.

Gensokyo is a largely dark setting with easy to ignore darkness because we players follow the strongest people in the setting. In all materials it's quite clear that for weaklings (humans, especially outsiders) Gensokyo is a meatgrinder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34512941
>Really? I think they are kind of dark as well, but not for plot reasons. The atmosphere of early touhou games just feels more otherworldly and lonely. That might be because of both early-gensokyo just being so old now, coming from a time before internet was widespread, and the very low cast of characters and info on the world.
EoSD is the safest, but 6-9 are dark plots.

6 is a threat to human life as a whole, though over time we learned the threat was not serious. Still you have stuff like "Remilia accidentally kills people" and "Flan would obliterate humans if she ever met them ordinarily" in the profiles.
7 is about a girl who was able to accidentally kill people killing herself. Also there are corpses under the cherry blossom trees.
While 8 itself is safe, the backstory of 8 is a war and the fact that Eirin murdered people in order to secret away Kaguya.
9 is literally entirely about death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658345
PC98 Gensokyo is the same Gensokyo, it's just not fleshed out. ZUN also said later that PC98 IS canon, and to ignore potential contradictions in favor of Windows lore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34602178
>Makai is mentioned somewhere or other as being the birthplace of Patchy’s officially unnamed familiar
No it isn't. There's literally nothing on "Koakuma" other than ZUN eventually going "sure she helps with the library or something"

>>34611653
>You see the same burning city in MS and UFO
This is false, you're not even in the same place in UFO (you're above and in Hokkai). You see a sunset/horizon with some buildings. That's it. The horizon buildings are not the same looking, by the way. Compare them yourself

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658441
He said this much later after regularly insisting on a disconnect. And if you are to ignore contradiction, then the eastern land's whole premise contradicts as Gensokyo is not a gateway world, nor is Hakurei Shrine. While other worlds are an element, the entire point of Gensokyo is that it's sealed. Reaching other worlds is actually a trying task, or something only possible via unusual means.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658472
>While other worlds are an element, the entire point of Gensokyo is that it's sealed.
nta but doesn't PoDD make it pretty obvious that the eastern land is also sealed off, atleast from the outside world?
>Reaching other worlds is actually a trying task, or something only possible via unusual means.
most of the other worlds in pc-98 have gatekeepers, for example, singyoku, sara, elly,

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658589
It's more than gatekeeping though, it's "a specific, thousand year old youkai with absurd powers needs to align the reflection of the moon on a certain day to sneak into the lunar capital"
"you must cross the sanzu river with a specific guide, otherwise you will be lost and consumed by the dead (for Hell, or for the Beast World)"
"you can just cross over the door lol" (this one is easy but the presence of the netherworld gate and Yukari's laziness afterward seem to imply the border of life and death used to be very strict)
"you need a specific ancient and legendary ship and thousands of its pieces unlocked to reach makai"

But you can with ease reach any other place in the eastern land, which is really the point of it. It's a very "doujin" game with a setting that easily allows for many sudden and weird elements, and clashing elements, like sci fi and fantasy smacking together

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658640
you have a point, and
>It's a very "doujin" game with a setting that easily allows for many sudden and weird elements, and clashing elements, like sci fi and fantasy smacking together
while i agree with this, i don't think that necessarily makes the entirety of pc-98 non-canon. clearly something like a character breaking the fourth wall is just a joke, but i think some details of pc-98 lore can coexist with windows era lore

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658723
I do think there are bits and pieces, but I overall recognize it as a fairly thoughtless series, at least in terms of setting, plot, and characters.

The music, however, slaps, and the gameplay gets better over time

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658378
>the fact that Eirin murdered people
Moonies are not people

[Anonymous No.]

>>34658589
Anon, the fourth game is "Touhou Gensokyo ~ Lotus Land Story", with said "Gensokyo" (i.e. fantasy land) being a weird dimension accessed through a lake of blood on a mountain behind the Hakurei Shrine.

Not only does the Windows continuity have a contradictory usage of "Gensokyo", not only is the Hakurei Shrine inside Gensokyo itself, but it's also on the edge of the barrier with no mountains behind it. There is a lake of blood in the Windows continuity, but it's in Hell.

>nta but doesn't PoDD make it pretty obvious that the eastern land is also sealed off, atleast from the outside world?
No. I know that the summary on Touhouwiki claims that Yumemi traveled to Gensokyo from the outside world, but neither of those terms are actually in the game. The PC-98 Hakurei Shrine is explicitly in the "normal" world, and it's PC-98 Reimu's job to keep the entrances to monster dimensions sealed up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34670505
again, you have a point, and those discrepancies can only be solved with something that is neither provable nor disprovable like "things just changed over time"
>No. I know that the summary on Touhouwiki claims that Yumemi traveled to Gensokyo from the outside world, but neither of those terms are actually in the game.
unless you're trying to imply that the english translation is false, i definitely remember that in the cutscenes yumemi refers to the eastern land as something like "this world", implying it's separated from others. and if we are to believe the eastern land is connected to the outside world, why would yumemi be laughed out of her university for believing in magic, and why would she need to build her own ship to travel there?

>>34658748
>The music, however, slaps,
yeah i think i'd say so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec3C9yovlDs

[Anonymous No.]

>>34673363
>i definitely remember that in the cutscenes yumemi refers to the eastern land as something like "this world", implying it's separated from others
She's from an alternate universe. They even have counterparts in the main universe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34673363
>unless you're trying to imply that the english translation is false
No, translations on Touhouwiki are usually okay. Usually. The articles which aren't a direct translation of something are way less reliable, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34673363
>is neither provable nor disprovable like "things just changed over time"
For windows we have about ~1300 years of canon known and ~100 years ago the world was sealed off, not like 20 years ago or something (which would have to be the case if it changed between 5 and 6)

Not trying to harp on this though just pointing that out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34675214
>~100 years ago the world was sealed off
We know the exact year - 1885.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo_Timeline

[Anonymous No.]

>>34675283
yeah I know, just didn't want to bother going to get the date (I am that lazy)

[Anonymous No.]

>>34675028
i guess this is a possibility if we are supposed to assume that chiyuri and yumemi's scenarios weren't just zun being lazy
>>34675142
good to know.
>>34675214
>>34675283
admittedly i forgot how long gensokyo has been sealed, my bad

[Anonymous No.]

>>34663296
Lives were still lost.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34663296
>That scene in CiLR where Eirin wants to murder a human who was living on the Moon, the Watatsukis freak out and make her promise not to harm him, and Eirin agrees but then magically ages the guy until all his organs start failing

[Anonymous No.]

>>34685738
I don't remember that. Didn't she trap him in a thing to "send him to the future"?

[Anonymous No.]

I might play PC-98 again soon. I don't know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34697745
okay

[Anonymous No.]

>>34690333
Yes, but then she also gave him the aging box without telling the Watatsukis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34685641
They're ghost now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34508734
>ZUN's a big fan of Agatha Christie and the original DiPP story was his attempt at writing a And Then There Were None style murder mystery with a twist ending.
I think I remember someone saying Akyuu was Agatha, but I don't think I figured out whether it was a shitpost or not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34713537
Akyuu does adopt that name in Forbidden Scrollery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34715209
Yeah, you can read one of her murder mysteries written under her Agatha Chris-Kyuu pseudonym in Alternate Facts in Eastern Utopia

[Anonymous No.]

>>34508734
Even in the second version of DiPP there are allusions to and direct quotes from mystery novels by the author Fujiki Rin. One book ZUN quoted from is called 'Shanghai Genya' which was released one year before he first participated at comiket as Shanghai Alice.
I kind of wish ZUN would go back to being a mystery-reading westaboo sometimes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34715503
>I kind of wish ZUN would go back to being a mystery-reading westaboo sometimes.
Now that I think about it, the games were moreso eastern focused after EoSD. It was practically the last one where it felt western-ish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731224
Wasn't that mostly the point of EoSD? The first three levels are more eastern with an eastern gatekeeper for the last boss of the trial, then the full game releases and you have western vampires and maids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731224
DDC demo had us going

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731395
You're right. Do you think that was intentional?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731473
I think I read he thought it would be funny if he baited and switched in the magazine. Although, I don't remember where.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731395
>>34731473
I remember some interview with him, he mentioned the reason Hong has ‘dragon’ on her hat is because he wanted the stage 3 boss to be the connecting bridge between the east and west segments, and dragons are something that are both western and eastern.

So based on that, yes, I definitely think it was intentional.

I think touhou should remain mostly Japanese focused, but wouldn’t mind a few more Western mythology immigrants.

For a while I thought banki was a dullahan and shinmyoumaru was a lilliputian. I was a little let down when I found out those were just spellcard names, cause I thought those made for an interesting basis for the characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34734818
I do remember him talking about a different bait and switch, which was making Alice the stage 3 boss in PCB to make people think the full game would involve more returning characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34742819
>I do remember him talking about a different bait and switch, which was making Alice the stage 3 boss in PCB to make people think the full game would involve more returning characters.
Was there anything else about stage mentioned? I remember the first time I played that game, seeing Alice was almost like being blindsighted.

[Anonymous No.]

not so fast

[Anonymous No.]

>>34747008
>Was there anything else about stage mentioned?
What?

[Anonymous No.]

gen gen

[Anonymous No.]

>>34731395
>>34731473
>>34735049
In general ZUN has a habit of trying to fake out players with the first 3 stages. Not always; like 8-12 are straightforward, but 6/7 and 13-18 do mislead you or at least steer you away from the truth, which only usually starts to be understood by stage 4

[Anonymous No.]

>>34760533
Are there any other notes about stage 3.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34777139
Probably. Nothing I can immediately remember, though. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34777575
No worries.

[Anonymous No.]

not so fast

[Anonymous No.]

Looks like the board slowed down again.

[Anonymous No.]

bump

[Anonymous No.]

>>34622496
Do we have any indications at all about Reimu's family, their deity, or why she is the only miko of the Hakurei shrine?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34808830
No, it's just her IIRC. Windows era Reimu that is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190

[Anonymous No.]

>>34505175
Zun still makes expies, anon was talking about how he used to literally trace manga characters for his art.

[Anonymous No.]

I guess this is a defacto lore thread.

[Anonymous No.]

hey now

[Anonymous No.]

>>34825029
He once stole code and claimed it as his own as well in pc98.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34840926
>He once stole code and claimed it as his own as well in pc98
more on this?

[Anonymous No.]

Apparently the Touhou 1 backgrounds were just straight taken from an Alicesoft CG collection. I have a feeling some of the PC-98 era art might have been inspired by CG collections at the time

[Anonymous No.]

>>34847346

[Anonymous No.]

>>34847346
>I have a feeling some of the PC-98 era art might have been inspired by CG collections at the time
Eh? I want to agree, but I honestly can't remember much since I didn't get to play many games that dated that far back. Even on XP and earlier machines.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34849082
Pretty neat, now I can't unsee it

[Anonymous No.]

>>34859666
>can't unsee it
Well, I can't say the same Satan.
With the source known, it'll be hard to forget that's for sure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499415
Then he would be just another obscure electronic musician maybe appearing in a /mu/ chart or two.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190

[Anonymous No.]

One more

[Anonymous No.]

>By the way, speaking of sealed rooms... there's not much of an actual point to killing someone in one, is there? I could probably pull off a locked-room suicide, myself.
what did ZUN mean by this

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190

[Anonymous No.]

>>34890217
>there's not much of an actual point to killing someone in one, is there? I could probably pull off a locked-room suicide, myself.
source?
it's probably better in full context
I haven't really read into locked room stuff, so I don't have much to go on right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34905301
It's from ZUN's comment about Patchy's theme.
Maybe he's joking that, despite locked room murders being hard to pull off, anyone can do a locked room suicide.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34905301
>it's probably better in full context
I don't know about that, ZUN occasionally just feels like he writes down whatever comes to mind.
>Wonder if a Youkai would come out. Like in my room, or my workplace.
A shrine maiden is fine too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34905301
>it's probably better in full context
I don't know about that, ZUN occasionally just feels like he writes down whatever comes to mind.
>Wonder if a Youkai would come out. Like in my room, or my workplace. A shrine maiden is fine too.

[Anonymous No.]

not so fast.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34675214
>~100 years ago the world was sealed off,
I thought it was sooner than that, or am I just thinking of the barrier?

[Anonymous No.]

I wonder what the next post could possibly be

[Anonymous No.]

Keep up the worship.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34929173
Well, it's hard to go on when you post an image with nobody in it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34929963
Are we just fuel for ZUN's faith, causing him to become a god?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34929963
The booze is what keeps him going

[Anonymous No.]

DiPP is a cool idea in theory and I love the overall story that’s told, it just suffers from it coming at a time where Touhou didn’t have a super solid grasp on what it wanted it’s world to be. As a result gensokyo in DiPP only resembles the usual gensokyo in name and feels like it could exist as it’s own thing, I’d love to see ZUN take a shot at something similar someday now that Touhou’s got a clear identity and world

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499415
Touhou should've been a VN instead

[Anonymous No.]

>>34970728
>Touhou should've been a VN instead
Would that have changed anything?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34924036
The barrier WAS it being sealed off, and it happened ~100 years ago

[Anonymous No.]

>>34982473
A lot. Part of the charm is the constant playfighting with fireworks battles

[Anonymous No.]

>>34982473
There's no Touhou without danmaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34983953
>>34983646
Fair enough.
There's still one guy asking about it being a VN, so I'm not sure how that would play out in the grand scheme of things.

[Anonymous No.]

bump

[Anonymous No.]

I wont let this thread die

[Anonymous No.]

Defacto lore thread?
Nobody answered the question.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35005695
People have sort of answered it.
DiPP's dark story is definitely mainly down to ZUN's fondness for murder mysteries at the time. Also iirc all the murders that take place are orchestrated by the honest people themselves, who are from outside of Gensokyo, so despite being dark, it's not like the story is about 'evil youkai' like OP said.
In IN's omake ZUN says something about how, unlike most games which create stories from the extraordinary in the everyday, Touhou is instead about normality/the everyday in an extraordinary setting. The incidents which form the stories for each game are small disturbances in an otherwise peaceful world, and everything goes back to normal when they're resolved. We only really get glimpses into Gensokyo when something is awry, but that's not the norm. I think the peacefulness of Gensokyo is something ZUN's emphasised from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35005655
What's wrong with Renko's knees?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35005963
I wish you didn't point that out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35005957
>People have sort of answered it.
I guess I missed it then.
>I think the peacefulness of Gensokyo is something ZUN's emphasised from the beginning.
I agree.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35005963
it's an artstyle

[Anonymous No.]

>>34624719
>Was this in a manga? I don't recall her ever saying such in the games.
I don't remember all occasions of it, its scattered mostly in the side materials probably in CoLA or the other supplementary info books.

But the most recent moment was in WaHH, Marisa does acknowledge Reimu is weird even for Gensokyo.

>>34808830
Absolutely nothing that can be verified as a complete fact, just teases.

There is a tiny implication she was a orphan from CoLA. There was a pretty flippant comment by Marisa calling Reimu an orphan but she might have been joking then.

But in the same series there is a flashback chapter featuring a much younger child Reimu & Marisa. So Rinnosuke seemingly has known Reimu since she was a child at least.

WaHH has had Reimu musing about being bitter about her parents, but its part of a proverb so we don't know what she meant by it.

The prologue of PCB has the Gensokyo Chronicle signed off personally by the 13th generation Hakurei Shrine Maiden, but ZUN has gone on record saying that the 13th may have been one of Reimu's descendant/ancestors and we don't know when that record was written. The other problem is we know there wasn't a proper established canon until MoF. PCB/IN was still very much in the territory of ZUN is experimenting and tossing ideas.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35025882
>there wasn't a proper established canon until MoF
What does this mean exactly?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35026007
That until MoF ZUN didn't particularly care about canonical consistency between games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35035455
>until MoF ZUN didn't particularly care about canonical consistency between games.
That explains a lot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35041235
What does it explain?

[Anonymous No.]

>>35025882
>tiny implication Reimu was an orphan in CoLA
Which chapter?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34621726
I feel like the characterization of some of the early characters has changed to fit that tonal shift as well. In particular, Reimu in the early games and especially CoLA is such an enigmatic and strange person. Compare that to how she acts in later works and it feels like she's not really mysterious at all anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35050933
>Compare that to how she acts in later works and it feels like she's not really mysterious at all anymore.
It feels like ZUN started trying to "fix" Yukari a while ago, making her more mysterious again while also strongly emphasising her limits.
>"Gensokyo is capable of change."
>"Hello we are two of the other Sages of Gensokyo in case you forgot that Yukari needed help to create the Barrier."
>"Yukari is a coward."

[Anonymous No.]

>>35042575
It's a figure of speech.
If anything changed between EoSD and MoF, then it's really just up to whatever ZUN decided to do with the characters at the time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35063324
I just asked because I couldn't think of anything lore-wise that's outright contradicted by another game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35064358
>I couldn't think of anything lore-wise that's outright contradicted by another game.
Disregarding PC98, Sakuya's eyes might be the most noticeable, though that could just be whatever is said about the mist. Then there's Youmu who shows up with red eyes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35067712
>Then there's Youmu who shows up with red eyes.
but that's not really a contradiction now that I think of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34531451
there are more posts to remind revere poster.

[Anonymous No.]

People are discussing powerlevels in some other thread. I still think Heck is the strongest character so far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34531451
FAIL

[Anonymous No.]

Resource dump
>>35082200

[Anonymous No.]

>>35087813
Power level discussion in touhou is useless, there's no objective way to measure it and it got worse thanks to ghe messy canon, but let's suppose pc-98 is canon, shinki is the most powerful character ever created according to inductive logic, the weakest youkai in makai is fair stronger than a buffed hell fairy like clownpiece

But in the end, power level is pointless, everyone is overpowered and that's all

[Anonymous No.]

>>35102101

[Anonymous No.]

Oi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35114980
That's how you can tell he is a tru jaypee

[Anonymous No.]

>>34970728
VNs are boring piles of shit. Computers allow you to achieve so much and you'd rather choose to read a comic book with slight animations than have gameplay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35102101
Holy fuck my typo, i should never phonepost while drowsy

>>35114980
If you want fun let's discuss about which tojas go to gym

[Anonymous No.]

>>35114980
no fun?
it was always bullshit because you faggots would endlessly wank Yukari.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35134676
Yukari would manipulate the border between wanking once and wanking endlessly to calculate how many ways she can kill you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35136649
if she has to calculate infinity, then maybe she should think of better ways to waste time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34840926
sauce or some of more of your details? never knew about this

[Anonymous No.]

>>34499190
I'm glad somebody is talking about this. Few people read into those stories.
Originally it was pretty dark.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35141975
I assume it's really just rumors regarding that korean programmer stuff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35133895
Thread about characters and manga on the subject of other works.
Nobody replied there so maybe someone here might have something to add.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34946547
if that were the case, then humans across history would be deities themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35150382
hmm sauce that too? want a read or the main idea and perception desu

[Anonymous No.]

>>35164010
Touhou was actually created by a Korean programmer named Jun-Suk Kim.
The game, which initially was titled as 토호 (translating to "eastern wonderland")
was stolen by a Japanese assistant to the original creator, who called himself "ZUN"
(note the resemblance to the original programmer's name) and leaked at Comiket before
the game could be released in Korea.

To silence Junsuk Kim, ZUN threatened to sue him for copyright infringements
(as Kim had little evidence that he had indeed created the game) and continued to use the
Korean programmer to create additional games for the series.

I don't know the validity of the above.
-
unless they're talking about something different.

[Anonymous No.]

oi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>35171350
sounds more like korean shitposting than anything valid but still funny

[Anonymous No.]

>>35171350
bro that sounds like some shitposting and i don't even remotely speak korean

where's the sauce of info tho if you have any I'd like some reads pls?