Just like Higurashi, everything in Umineko can be explained with science picture related

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Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:05:15 2009 No.2914821 [Reply] [Original]

Just like Higurashi, everything in Umineko can be explained with science

picture related

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:07:15 2009 No.2914834 Good thing they have nothing to do with each other, so Hanyuu is irrelevant.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:10:15 2009 No.2914851

Umineko and Higurashi don't try to explain things through science, they have the fantasy explanation and the 'don't explain' explanation, which is also called the 'mystery explanation'.

That's why Kai sucked, familiarity breeds contempt after all, once Higurashi tried to explain everything with magic it demystified itself and made itself look ridiculous.

Things are better when left ambiguous.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:13:15 2009 No.2914879 >>2914851 The fuck are you talking about? The only "magic" things in Higurashi were Hanyuu and Rika's world jumping.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:15:15 2009 No.2914895 File: 28 KB, 636x481, Smallbombs02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2914821 Seeing how it completely got wrong the Schrodinger's cat experiment I'd say no. Everything can be explained with small bombs and that's it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:16:15 2009 No.2914904 >>2914821 What picture ?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:20:15 2009 No.2914924 >>2914821 Didn't ryu say other wise? /r/ing interview to confirm

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:20:15 2009 No.2914929 >>2914821 Umineko went into the quantum multiuniverse argument, so proving that things can be explained with science is even a devil's proof, we're all stuck forever.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:21:15 2009 No.2914930 Shit is like Sphere, Maria's thoughts manifest on the island on October 4-5.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:21:15 2009 No.2914936 I think Virgilia is right Rokkenjima is in a schrodinger's box state in which both magic and science are valid explanations That being said I think Beatrice is the name of the storm

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:22:15 2009 No.2914945 >>2914851 I'd be incredibly incredibly very very disappointed if there is no magic or witch. As in end of episode 3 kind of betrayal disappointment. I may even cry.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:23:15 2009 No.2914952 Ah, Hanyuu... sometime I wonder if Ryu07 was trolling when he brought her into the story to explain pretty much fucking everything

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:24:15 2009 No.2914955 >>2914936 Except that the Schrodinger's cat experiment concept is completely different, as well as Hempel's raven

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:25:15 2009 No.2914962 >>2914945 I'd be incredibly dissapointed if the 7 Stake Sisters weren't real.. well.. as far as real can go in accordance to that story's fictional setting, anyway. I'm contradicting myself, aren't I?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:27:15 2009 No.2914980 >>2914945 Hmm, I'm actually expecting no magic. But then again, neither is actually good

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:29:15 2009 No.2914989 >>2914955 Explain where they fucked up to people who aren't conversant on the topic.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:31:15 2009 No.2915009

That's why I'm being cautious. During Higurashi I said to myself many times that everything including the looping time can be explained with science.

Then suddenly Hanyuu showed up and destroyed all faith I had

Deep inside Ryukishi 07 is a sadistic bastard

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:33:15 2009 No.2915017 >>2914962 >>2914980 The reason I'd cry is because that means Ange's and Marie's situation would be pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:35:15 2009 No.2915032 Pure anti-fantasy and anti-mystery are about as retarded as each other by this point.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:36:15 2009 No.2915036 >>2914989 Uhhh, have you even read the papers on quantum superposition?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:38:15 2009 No.2915052 Well the only thing hanyuu did was explain why they kept looping for ever, hear weird foot steps, and grabbed the bullet when miyo tried to shoot mion. Other than that, all the other shit was explained without magical stuff.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:38:15 2009 No.2915054 >>2915009 Really, Umineko seems different to me, everything has been totally ambiguous

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:39:15 2009 No.2915057 Why are people so anti-magic? Witout magic this VN is just people killing each other on an island. Not as interesting if there really was a witch and marie really is god to be.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:41:15 2009 No.2915070 >>2914962 >>I'd be incredibly dissapointed if the 7 Stake Sisters weren't rea1 This. Gaap Virgilia Ronove The Siesta The Stakes Even that one goat Sakuratarou If there is no magic that means these very awesome people who should exist won't.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:41:15 2009 No.2915071

Ange is a lonely delusional girl who somehow got a hold of Maria's diary and from there on crafed her own imaginary friends.

Kasumi's bodyguards? That's just her body guard sniping from a long distance

Though I'm not sure how and why Maria's diary ended up in her hands. That's really no reason other for other than sentimentalism.

I'm going to compromise that magic exists for those only those who believe it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:42:15 2009 No.2915079 >>2915057 That would be fucking boring. You can just say "LOL IT WAS ALL MAGIC, THE END", but if it wasn't magic it would take a really good explanation to explain it

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:42:15 2009 No.2915086 >>2915057 It's Maria, anon. Maria.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:42:15 2009 No.2915088 >>2915017 Don't you think their situations are pretty pathetic anyway?

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:44:15 2009 No.2915103

>>2915071
>>Ange is a lonely delusional girl who somehow got a hold of Maria's diary and from there on crafed her own imaginary friends

Doesn't explain how she time traveled to the island and met with battler, bern and lambda.

>>Kasumi's bodyguards? That's just her body guard sniping from a long distance

Doesn't explain how they were cutting up bullets in mid flight or how the body guard's died so fucking horribly (A gun will not blow half your body away)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:44:15 2009 No.2915105 >>2915057 murder mystery. It makes you think, try to figure who the culprit is, etc. Its way more entertaining than just "ITS MAGIC, PROBLEM SOLVED."

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:45:15 2009 No.2915110 >>2915057 Moron, what's fun is that the VN an ambient of how the REAL argument would be, you truly don't know if magic exists or not, there's a great evidence of this, and that's what makes it fun, it's like you really are proving the real thing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:46:15 2009 No.2915120 >>2915105 But it is magic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:46:15 2009 No.2915123 >>2915088 Yes but at least they had magic. Just being bullied so much to be delusional is too sad for me to take.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:47:15 2009 No.2915131 >>2915120 Prove it

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:48:15 2009 No.2915136 >>2915131 smallbombs

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:48:15 2009 No.2915139

>>2915103

To what extent can we actually trust Ange's perception? After all, she was already seeing stuff that other people verifiably weren't by then...

As far as the weird time travel thing goes, that's not a separate problem from the whole fact that Battler is up there to begin with. And seeing as it hasn't bothered him yet... though yes, it is a little... off, wouldn't you say? Denying a witch he's, you know, talking to?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:49:15 2009 No.2915146 >>2915131 Maybe because it's shown right in your face? Lets be honest Battler died in Ep 1 it's magic that's even having him have this discussion in the very first place.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:50:15 2009 No.2915157 >>2915103 Smallknives

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:51:15 2009 No.2915164

I have mixed feelings. On one hand I like murder mystery.

On the other hand I want to see Jessica and George win a rematch against Ronove and Gaap

and Goldsmith being awesome

and the stake sisters wearing no pants

and Bern and 34 duking it out in an even more spectacular magic fight

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:52:15 2009 No.2915169

>>2915139
I say we trust Ange. The Seven sisters have been verified by Kyrie, Ghoda, Battler and Rudolf in the game board. They've also been verified by battler outside the game board as well.

What happened on the island with kasumi? I have no way of verifying that so we should wait until the answer arcs.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:52:15 2009 No.2915170 I like Ange. Maria however, needs to fucking shut up.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:52:15 2009 No.2915171 >>2915146 Oh wow, do you seriously give up that easy?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:54:15 2009 No.2915185 Witches exist The plot however, requires Battler to disprove it using human explanations (even though he himself may believe it deep inside)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:55:15 2009 No.2915191 >>2915164 >>34 who?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:55:15 2009 No.2915196 What's with all the weak anti-mystery arguments in here? Do you guys seriously take everything at face value?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:56:15 2009 No.2915199 >>2915191 λδ

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:56:15 2009 No.2915200 >>2915191 Lamda Delta. You know.. that crazy little blonde which that wants to make Bern her yuri love slave.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:56:15 2009 No.2915202 >>2915191 Lambdadelta, Lambda and delta are the third and fourth letters in the greek alphabet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:56:15 2009 No.2915205 >>2915171 Giving up implies I believed in the human theory in the first place. Since I started this game Ive always seen it as "Lol magic" even right to the end. Th very fact that battler can't argue his way out of it even at the end proves this.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:57:15 2009 No.2915207

>>2915169

I don't wholly trust Battler's within the game board perceptions either. ESPECIALLY near the end of the episode.

Remember, you can't trust anything that's not in red text.

Besides, look how many people have interacted with Kinzo, and he was dead the whole time. Whoops...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 02:58:15 2009 No.2915215 >>2915196 A dead person is arguing with a witch in purgatory why magic shouldn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:00:15 2009 No.2915224 >>2915207 Those events can be chalked up to: - "Kinzo" being a title - Family being full of shit - The events happening in the past

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:00:15 2009 No.2915225 I just want to see more magic fights. Who hasn't gotten their turn to be awesome yet? Hideyoshi and Dr.Nanjo should bear wrestle Goldsmith in the 5th game

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:00:15 2009 No.2915228 >>2915205 uhhh no

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:00:15 2009 No.2915233 >>2915207 So we can't trust battler's perception. I don't see why not. He has strong anti-magic toxins and an endless 9 god mode shield in him so he shouldn't be susceptible to magic and illusions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:02:15 2009 No.2915242 Anti-magic is for bitches.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:03:15 2009 No.2915245 >>2915233 Because it was stated in red that "you can't trust anything that's not in red." Unless "anything" doesn't mean what we think it means...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:05:15 2009 No.2915261 >>2915225 You mean more "lol powerlevels"? The only awesome fight was Virgilia vs Beato, I mean shit, that was breathtaking.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:08:15 2009 No.2915274 >>2915224 Who the hell was that Kinzo anyway? Was that title thing declared in red? I don't remember, λδ did say most of that was bullshit, man she scares the shit out of me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:08:15 2009 No.2915277 Anybody who is firmly anti-fantasy or anti-mystery is wrong. Remember, without love it cannot be seen.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:09:15 2009 No.2915280 >>2915277 This.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:10:15 2009 No.2915283

>>2915261
Meh even though it was lol powerlevel fight and it was supposed to show two high level witches fucking each other up I still perfer the George VS Gaap fight and the Jessica vs ROnove.

Hell Rudolf vs Sloth was awesome. "Brats don't know about my lever action".

Even Rosa was bad ass. I perfer more bad assery than fire works.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:10:15 2009 No.2915285 >>2915274 It was just one of Battler's theories

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:11:15 2009 No.2915293 >>2915283 George vs Gaap and Jessica vs Ronove was more depressing than anything

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:12:15 2009 No.2915297

>>2915245
I think you're taking "Anything" too literally. So not even battler is real, only thing is his hair.

Yes. His hair is the only true protagonist.

Also if genji is the killer in any of the games I'd fuck lose it. I hate the "LEAST ON YOU DIDN'T EXPECT i.e THE LOYAL ONE WITH ISSUES."

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:13:15 2009 No.2915305 >>2915293 Yeah, Ryu is a fucking sick bastard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:13:15 2009 No.2915306 >>2915297 Are you kidding? Genji is probably the second most fucking suspicious person there, next to Nanjo.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:14:15 2009 No.2915311 >>2915297 His...hair?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:15:15 2009 No.2915318 >>2915297 I'd love to know something for certain about Genji. We know that he's been employed by Kinzo for a really, really long time... and that seems to be about it. I want to know if he knew that Kinzo was dead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:17:15 2009 No.2915330 >>2915318 I don't see how him, Shannon, or Kanon couldn't have known.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:18:15 2009 No.2915331 >>2915311 Things stated in Red = Truth Battler's hair is red Therefore battler's hair is the only truth. FLAWLESS LOGIC.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:19:15 2009 No.2915342 >>2915331 HOLY SHIT

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:21:15 2009 No.2915355 Seriously, why is Lambdadelta so fucking scary?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:21:15 2009 No.2915364 I've been thinking what if one of the things said in red isn't really red, but rather a lesser tint of red and hence, not the truth Would they go that far to troll us?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:22:15 2009 No.2915366 >>2915318 >>2915297 In Western mysteries, the butler always done it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:22:15 2009 No.2915368 What if "red" has another meaning?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:22:15 2009 No.2915372 >>2915364 That's quite stupid

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:23:15 2009 No.2915376 >>2915368 PMS?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:23:15 2009 No.2915380 >>2915355 She's the most powerful witch as far as raw power goes. Bern only defeated her by endurance.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:24:15 2009 No.2915388 >>2915368 It doesn't. I'm more wondering if Beato could really deny witches back in EP3

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:26:15 2009 No.2915398 I'm betting that Eva didn't solve the real answer to the epitaph

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:27:15 2009 No.2915406 >>2915398 It was all part of Beato's cruel, cruel tactic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:28:15 2009 No.2915411 >>2915355 Because she's a crazy bitch in a room full of crazy bitches. I hated the way at the end of ????? Bern who I thought wasn't crazy showed a crazy face and laughed crazy like.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:28:15 2009 No.2915418

>>2915388

Isn't there a rule that you can't red-text directly that witches do or do not exist, as that would break the game?

I suppose it's possible that Beatrice said something along the lines of "here is everything that happened, witches are not necessary here."

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:28:15 2009 No.2915419 >>2915411 Bern isn't crazy. She's cruel. She's the cruelest witch.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:29:15 2009 No.2915420 >>2915331 Lets be honest. battler's hair really is awesome.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:30:15 2009 No.2915428 >>2915398 Are we even sure of what the Land of Gold is? Does it refer to supposedly hidden gold chamber? Or a hidden bank account? Or maybe even something else

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:30:15 2009 No.2915429 >>2915411 Hey yeah, what the hell was that? Poor Beato, no, she's a fucking bitch too. And that fucking Bern, they're all fucking CRAZY. But Lambda particularly scares the SHIT out of me. I hope they're not real.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:31:15 2009 No.2915434 >>2915419 Are all witches evil? Is there no good witch? I thought since bern used to be rika once then she'd at least be the benefactor here. But it just looks like both witches are stringing along the lesser witch for their enjoyment.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:31:15 2009 No.2915438 Bern did admit to herself that she is the cruelest witch

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:33:15 2009 No.2915442 >>2915419 Isn't Beato supposed to be the cruelest. Damn, I also hate how at the beginning of every ???? I get the hope that everything will be happy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:33:15 2009 No.2915443 >>2915434 That depends on your definition of evil. But, after the tanabata side story, I definitely hate Bern the most.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:33:15 2009 No.2915444

For those who are anti-mystery:

We have been told that humans have a high concentration of magic-resisting toxin and when grouped it is nearly impossible for a witch to reveal herself. Just think what Ange had to do to allow her servants to show up and kill the soldiers, right? And in particular, Battler's quantity of magic-resisting toxin is said to be HUGE.

With that in mind, explain how Beatrice was able to manifest at the end of episode one.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:33:15 2009 No.2915446 It seems to me to me that the witches in this game are chaotic neutral The worse kind of alignment to go up against, really..

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:34:15 2009 No.2915448 >>2915434 What is "good"? deep.jpg

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:34:15 2009 No.2915453 >>2915446 Chaotic Neutral is pretty much the "fucktard/lolrandom" alignment, you know.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:35:15 2009 No.2915458 >>2915434 After how I got trolled with Virgilia, no.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:36:15 2009 No.2915474 By the way, to attest to Bernkastel's cruelty: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2490281#post2490281 Tanabata sidestory, don't read if you for some reason haven't finished EP4 yet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:36:15 2009 No.2915475 >>2915444 Almost everyone was dead and the rest were confused at that point.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:37:15 2009 No.2915477 >>2915453 that's exactly what I'm saying

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:38:15 2009 No.2915482 >>2915444 Even though I'm anti-fantasy, that's easy to explain, I suggest you undo that move.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:38:15 2009 No.2915486 >>2915474 Nice troll

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:41:15 2009 No.2915497

>>2915475

So when Maria says that stuff in the kitchen about how Beatrice could be standing right there and Battler still wouldn't be able to see her because their wavelengths don't match, even though she was a student of Beatrice's, she was just making stuff up?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:42:15 2009 No.2915508 >>2915443 WHats this? I played all 4 vn, ????? and tea parties but I can't remember what your talking about.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:43:15 2009 No.2915511 >>2915497 Hmmm, that wavelength thing sure was dropped pretty fast.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:45:15 2009 No.2915525 >>2915508 Learn to write properly, then we'll talk.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:46:15 2009 No.2915527 File: 163 KB, 850x531, sample-a1da9bc0f36e3badd3b922016b6e1a99.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] My only one desire for umineko is for the theoratical final battle to be like this

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:46:15 2009 No.2915528 File: 163 KB, 850x531, sample-a1da9bc0f36e3badd3b922016b6e1a99.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] My only one desire for umineko is for the theoratical final battle to be like this

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:46:15 2009 No.2915533 File: 23 KB, 880x495, untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:47:15 2009 No.2915534 >>2915527 >theoratical

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:47:15 2009 No.2915536 >>2915511 That scene is weird either way. If you assume Maria was making it up as she went along, why did the servants go along with her? If you assume she wasn't, why did it get dropped so fast?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:48:15 2009 No.2915541 >>2915536 ......small.....shit

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:49:15 2009 No.2915545 >>2915527 I think Ronove is actually on Battler's side.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:52:15 2009 No.2915555 What the hell was wrong with Virgilia in EP4 anyway?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 03:55:15 2009 No.2915570 Also, do the Siestas use windows Vista?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 04:01:15 2009 No.2915606 Windows ME

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 04:02:15 2009 No.2915607 >>2915474 RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 04:02:15 2009 No.2915613 >>2915555 She got shafted from really fucking awesome witch to comedic side role.

>>	Falcon !2Rbw7EnERg Fri Jul 10 04:22:15 2009 No.2915730 Looks like the next ep will have more enchange of coolfaces, objections, and stupid explanations between Meta-Battler and Beato in the purgatory.... Fuck i cant wait for this !

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 04:45:15 2009 No.2915829 Anyone seen the OP? What the fuck are battler and Beatrice doing in 1:29 anyway? Too blured to see.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 04:52:15 2009 No.2915876 >>2915829 Beatrice is in the background, and Battler is pointing forward?

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:10:15 2009 No.2915979 >>2915570 They all use different windows versions.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:11:15 2009 No.2915987 Magic doesn't exist. >>>/rs/All_the_murders_were_committed_using_small_bombs

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:12:15 2009 No.2915993 File: 55 KB, 661x325, science.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2915987

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Fri Jul 10 05:13:15 2009 No.2915997 I was doing the Higurashi = Umineko spotlighting way before you, guy

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:15:15 2009 No.2916004 >>2915997 Actually, !Nipaa was raving about solving Higurashi from the 'humans perspective' before you were.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:16:15 2009 No.2916009 >>2916004 >before you were raving Higurashi and Umineko are the same story over Submit button hit itself. Dammit.

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Fri Jul 10 05:18:15 2009 No.2916029 >>2916004 you slow? I was talking to OP.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:19:15 2009 No.2916036

>>2916004
I might as well repost that:

All of Higurashi can be easily explained without the use of magic or witches.

The sinless world of Saikoroshi-hen is the only real world. Rika is obviously schizophrenic, displaying a large number of symptoms such as delusions (that she's the reincarnation of a god and that she has existed for over 100 years), auditory hallucinations (that a god speaks to her through an oversized marble, telling her to commit murder), as well as a lack of desire to form relationships and even substance abuse. Because of her loneliness after losing her friends due to her village being about to sink underwater, her warped mind imagines a series of worlds where the dam was never built and all her friends stayed with her in Hinamizawa. The fact her classmates are going crazy and killing each other in most of these imaginary worlds is her way of having revenge against them for bullying and ignoring her. It's not as if a divine moeblob, a mysterious lethal disease that's only found in a single village and a secret government conspiracy with unlimited resources out to turn that disease into a biological weapon could ever be real. The true tragedy of Higurashi is that her parents and doctor failed to send her to a psychiatrist while there was still time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:20:15 2009 No.2916039 >>2916029 Yeah talk about OP 100 posts into the thread, you're a genius.

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 05:23:15 2009 No.2916059

>>2916036
I've broken through that, though.

There is a problem here.

I'll expose your fraud starting with this: The fact that her classmates are going crazy and killing each other in most of these imaginary worlds is her way of having revenge against them for bullying and ignoring her.

That would make sense, except in the world of Saikoroshi-hen Rika never met Keiichi. He did not come to Hinamizawa because he had no sin to hide from. You could try to say that she imagined him in place of Satoshi, but Satoshi has a place in those worlds too.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:27:15 2009 No.2916078

>>2916059
Do we ever see a character called Keiichi in Saikoroshi-hen? Why are you so eager to accept he exists? Perhaps he is the product of Rika's wish that someone would come and act as her ally. In this way he has a different role to Satoshi.

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Fri Jul 10 05:29:15 2009 No.2916082 >>2916039 >Yeah talk about OP 100 posts into the thread, you're a genius. Got a problem with that?

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 05:31:15 2009 No.2916086 File: 87 KB, 505x480, ber_akuwaraia5.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916036 I like it!

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 05:32:15 2009 No.2916090 >>2916078 Rika acknowledges the existence of Maebara Keiichi while talking to Hanyuu in Saikoroshi-hen. Fine, fine. Keiichi is supposed to be her white knight. Why does she imagine all of those horrible things happening to him too?

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:35:15 2009 No.2916103 >>2916090 Perhaps because no such person actually turns up in her life, so she vents her frustrations on her imaginary white knight as well. The same applies to Akasaka, whose wife she kills in most of her imaginary worlds.

>>	Sanya (Has Done 123+ Uu~Uu~) !Nyan400/lc!!pn98eOoDE1D Fri Jul 10 05:38:15 2009 No.2916118 File: 189 KB, 449x357, battler.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Ep5: Battler is the Witch

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Fri Jul 10 05:41:15 2009 No.2916131 >>2916118 EP 6: Dude, where's my Gold?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:41:15 2009 No.2916132 >>2916118 GJ

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 05:43:15 2009 No.2916138

>>2916103
She's already frustrated enough to kill her classmates, but you'll take it even further and have her venting on her own imaginary ally? That's completely ridiculous!

Okay. Then explain the world after the sinless world. The world Rika chooses. What, does she just go back into delusions? What's she doing in the world of Saikoroshi-hen right now?

Nevermind that your theory also ignores the entire purpose of that narrative - that is, for Rika to settle down and accept her world the way it is.

>>2916118
cacklecacklecackle

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:48:15 2009 No.2916158

>>2916138
Considering that in the end her delusions cause her to murder her mother and then commit suicide in an attempt to reach her imaginary ideal world, its not at all surprising that her imagination is extremely violent and disturbed.

That happy end is simply the final delusion Rika has as she's dying after having killed her mother.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 05:50:15 2009 No.2916175 File: 83 KB, 505x479, ber_waraia2a.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916158

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 05:51:15 2009 No.2916179 File: 84 KB, 505x479, blank_bern2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916118

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 05:52:03 2009 No.2916194 >>2916158 That's totally ruthless. Fine then, allow me to backpedal a bit.

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 05:53:15 2009 No.2916198 File: 4 KB, 414x53, k1red.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] That's totally ruthless. Fine then, allow me to backpedal a bit.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 05:53:15 2009 No.2916200 File: 85 KB, 504x480, ber_nayamua1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916194

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 05:59:15 2009 No.2916228

>>2916198
Why should I accept what you say in red? I can use red for the opposite after all.

Your best bet to disprove my claims would be to either (i) find a scene where Rika demonstrates actual supernatural powers to another human or (ii) find a scene where Rika demonstrates genuine knowledge that she shouldn't possess.

The only time I recall her display knowledge she shouldn't have is when she talks about about the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama to her mother and her doctor, but that can simply be explained by her reading those ancient manuscripts. It's simply that Rika has convinced herself she picked up that knowledge from her god/imaginary friend.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:02:15 2009 No.2916250
File: 207 KB, 600x800, 2079453.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2916228

>Why should I accept what you say in red? I can use red for the opposite after all.

>Not accepting red as truth

>Endless stalemate

Enjoy playing with the witch forever n00b

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 06:02:15 2009 No.2916255 File: 82 KB, 505x480, ber_waraia3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916250 Splendid reply.

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 06:10:15 2009 No.2916297 >>2916228 You can use the red like that, but you'd be wrong. Regardless of whether or not Maebara Keiichi exists within Saikoroshi-hen, canonically he exists in the other arcs.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 06:13:15 2009 No.2916315 File: 87 KB, 505x480, ber_gamana1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916297

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 06:14:15 2009 No.2916322 >>2916297 OK. He exists as a character in Rika's imaginary worlds. (Just as one might say that e.g. Flash Gordon "exists" in our world.) How does that counter what I've said?

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 06:14:15 2009 No.2916325 File: 86 KB, 505x480, ber_fukigena1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916322

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:15:15 2009 No.2916331 >>2916315 >>2916325 I missed you those last 2 days Trollkastel!

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 06:17:15 2009 No.2916342

>>2916322
It doesn't, I'm just stalling while I skim through my Rei subs to see if I can find something to work with. In all honesty your case is really solid since you can chalk just about anything up to delusions and I really don't have the luxury of red truths.

I was just mostly disappointed you denied my red.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 06:17:15 2009 No.2916343 File: 84 KB, 505x479, ber_odorokia2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2916331 Aah? Who are you, anon? Where have I seen you?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:17:15 2009 No.2916346 YOU ARE ALL WRONG EVERYTHING IN THE SERIES HAPPENED IN OISHI'S HEAD

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 06:19:15 2009 No.2916360 >>2916342 I thought you were trying to win by doing the equivalent of stating "magic exists" in red.

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 06:22:15 2009 No.2916382

>>2916360
Oh no, I'd never do a cheap shot like that. There was definitely room to wriggle through that statement.

You could even say something as silly as "okay, Maebara Keiichi exists in Higurashi. Rika just never met him (maybe heard a classmate mention him in some baseball related news or something?)"

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 06:22:15 2009 No.2916387

>>2916342
What you need is something that is witnessed by characters other than Rika. If you were willing to accept something simply because a little girl said it, you'd have to believe in Beatrice before the first Twilight in episode 1 takes place.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 06:25:15 2009 No.2916395 >>2916346 No its not. If it was all in Oishi's head then the girls would all be dressing up as bunny girls instead of maids. I guess that explains Haruhi though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:26:15 2009 No.2916406 >>2916343 but i have been watching you

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 06:31:15 2009 No.2916427 >>2916406 When?

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 07:44:15 2009 No.2916827

>>2916387
Right, there's nothing that fits that context. There is only one option left for me.

>The only time I recall her display knowledge she shouldn't have is when she talks about about the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama to her mother and her doctor, but that can simply be explained by her reading those ancient manuscripts. It's simply that Rika has convinced herself she picked up that knowledge from her god/imaginary friend.

This shows to me that Rika is not capable of fully deluding herself in your scenario. She took information and adapted it to her world.

So, instead of Rika knowing something she shouldn't, we come to Rika not knowing things she should. You yourself have demonstrated that Rika takes in knowledge of her surroundings even with delusions involved.

So why are the worlds of her delusions so vastly different? Not even just characters missing - that'd be excusable. But the entire village of Hinamizawa is different. She didn't even realize the village was going to be gone in a year? Ridiculous!

You might get away with it. With explaining all of those murders as her lashing out against her friends. But why the elaborate setup? For a young girl like her, who does not have the experience of 100 different Rikas, why does she set up Tokyo and the Queen Carrier? They are not delusions at all. It's far too fanciful for a little girl.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 08:05:15 2009 No.2916897

>>2916827
And the village is not that different; it's only difference is that it is not about to sink underwater. All she has to do is to think back 2-3 years and she can easily imagine what it would have been like.

How do you know she has imagined hundreds of worlds? We only see 8 of them. And saying that she couldn't have imagined all those eight worlds seems like an argument from personal incredulity. Perhaps she's really creative and she could have gotten ideas from manga or television programs.

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 08:38:15 2009 No.2917063

>>2916897
That's a pretty key difference. And anyway, you're wrong. Shops are closing down. People are starting to leave.

Your argument relies on her conveniently leaving out details of the world and reforming them with crazy ideas.

But, you've already reasoned how she would create these delusions.

See journal -> convert to Hanyuu telling her the story.

What does she see and convert into Takano, Keiichi, Okonogi and Tomitake? Why aren't the people leaving reflected in her delusional worlds?

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 09:19:15 2009 No.2917177 >>2917063 Because she doesn't want her village to sink underwater, so in her imaginary world that, and the people leaving, never happens. And why is it impossible for her to invent people for her imaginary worlds?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 09:30:15 2009 No.2917205 I'm amazed at how fast tripfags can ruin a thread

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 09:33:15 2009 No.2917216 >>2917205 Our tripfags are okay. Nipaa is nice and Trollkastel makes me laugh with his roleplaying.

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 09:34:15 2009 No.2917223

>>2917177
Because according to the original theory these things are supposed to be ways for her to vent her frustrations with being bullied and ignored.

What's the point in it all being guided by an imaginary invisible hand then?

The entire structure of the delusion is so inconsistent. She wants revenge on her classmates, but she doesn't want to be the one to carry out that revenge. At the same time she doesn't want anything to happen to her village. And, to top it all off, she apparently hates herself and has herself killed at the end of each of these delusions.

>>2917205
I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 09:35:15 2009 No.2917226 >>2917216 Is that all? When did i make you laugh? ;)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 09:38:15 2009 No.2917236 >>2917216 It can be a little annoying sometimes

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 09:41:15 2009 No.2917244 >>2917236 I'm annoyng?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 09:42:15 2009 No.2917251 >>2917244 You are

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 09:43:15 2009 No.2917254 >>2917236 >sometimes If by that you mean every single fucking time, then yes.

>>	Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 09:43:15 2009 No.2917255 >>2917251 Why?

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 09:44:15 2009 No.2917256

>>2917223
Her death is how she explains her moving from one world to the next. That's why she imagines it. And I don't think it's unnatural for someone to want something bad to happen to other people without them being the ones to do it.

And I don't see why she can't have conflicting urges; on the one had she might want to see the people bullying/ignoring her punished, but on the other she may also want to live happily in her village with her friends.

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 09:50:15 2009 No.2917278 >>2917256 What friends? Oh, I shouldn't say that, I like Rika. That's about as far as I can go, I guess. I'm too dumb to turn over your delusion argument. I'll think on it later and maybe come up with something. Your game, !Nipaa0mi0.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 09:59:15 2009 No.2917305

>>2917278
Battler admits defeat and that comes after arguing in favor of a magical explanation? It must be opposites day.

To be honest, I think that Ryukishi07 deliberately set up the sinless world in such a way that everything could be explained in a non-supernatural way. Rika can't prove Hanyuu's existence to her doctor, she never really tries to track down the people that might have come to Hinamizawa and, as she herself more or less admits, she sounds like a dangerous psychopath when she says that she's hearing voices telling her to commit murder.

Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL Fri Jul 10 10:02:15 2009 No.2917327

>>2915277

Yeah. If you're Kasumi, you're an idiot. If you're Maria, you're also fucked up. You gotta be Ange and you have the proper views of things, hers are the closest to the truth. The whole point of her flashbacks, other than background was to help unveil the nature of magic, she was staunchly anti-fantasy untill she managed to actually use magic successfully and completely. Delusional totally defeats the point of that area of the story.

Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 10:03:15 2009 No.2917332

>>2917305
It was already opposite day when you said Rika might be crazy.

Ryukishi07 may very well have left it open like that, but I don't think he would undermine Higurashi like that just to reach a resolution in Umineko. That's basically the entire reason I challenged the theory.

That, and I don't think Rika's a delusional little girl. I also don't think Maria and Ange are delusional.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 10:09:15 2009 No.2917347

>>2917332
I don't believe that everything was Rika's delusion either; I was merely playing devil's advocate. I was inspired by the people saying that the sinless world was a dream; it wasn't and besides one can equally argue that all the other worlds were imaginary instead.

As for Umineko, it's a different VN and just because the supernatural was playing a relatively part in Higurashi doesn't necessarily mean that the same will apply to it.

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 10:12:15 2009 No.2917358 >>2917347 The difference is your delusion argument is really hard to topple. I mean, hell, you even let Rika die after she killed her mom for the sake of that argument. That's so harsh, I was not expecting that from you.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 10:16:15 2009 No.2917371 >>2917358 Rika does kill her mother and then herself in the sinless world after all. I didn't invent her death; I was merely following the events in Saikoroshi-hen, but from outside Rika's perspective.

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 10:19:15 2009 No.2917381 >>2917371 Oh, yeah, that makes sense then. Fine, you let her happy ending become nothing more than another delusion before she died. That was also harsh.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 10:23:15 2009 No.2917402

>>2917381
It was a... necessity. I hope that mai waifu will forgive me.

Effectively what I was doing was looking at Saikoroshi-hen from doctor Yamamoto's perspective. From his viewpoint it is the tragic tale of a little girl who created an imaginary perfect world after losing all her friends and who then killed her mother and herself in a misguided attempt to reach it.

Anti-Fantasy Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:25:15 2009 No.2917405

Ok first of all one of the fundlemental rules of the game they play is questionable.
The fact that all things in red are true is questionable.
(Why is a guy who denies witches allowing a magical move like complete truth in the first place anyway...)
Keep in mind:
1.The reason the witch couldn't declare herself in red is because if she did. Battler can QUESTION THE RED.

Really anything that was shown Beyond the first Arc is questionable because beatrice is the one showing it.
Which by the way Battler won that episode so he has already won the game. Episode one has the MOST holes in it for the magic side and can and HAS been explained already.

Moving along to Vigilia She is the witches Furniture after beating her she became her new toy (She said so herself).

Also Maria has been to the family conference while battler has not. Noting that she also has Occult connections it is possible to allign her with the grandfather who controls the servents.

Oh and the one thing I HOPE is said in the next arc is the definition of Magic because so far I've come to this conclusion.

Magic and Miracles are seperate.
A. Magic is defined by using something that disregards the logical concept of reality.
B. Miracles are defined by something being achived againist High odds.

Kinzo preforms Miracles, that becomes magic by a very VERY slim chance. Thus I can say this is a miracle not magic.

I beleive that's check. I'll wait for someone to move that fantasy king or it's checkmate.

In Battler's style I decided to launch a volley different anti-fantasy arguements. Enjoy~

>>	Ushiromiya !IBaTTlErlE Fri Jul 10 10:31:15 2009 No.2917424 File: 39 KB, 367x364, rikaniipah.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2917402 I'll still challenge it again sometime. I got further along than I thought I would. And of course Rika would forgive you. She's a good girl.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:45:15 2009 No.2917461

>>2917405
>Really anything that was shown Beyond the first Arc is questionable because beatrice is the one showing it.
Which by the way Battler won that episode so he has already won the game. Episode one has the MOST holes in it for the magic side and can and HAS been explained already.
No, It hasn't been explained. Didn't you read the ???? of episode 4?

Higurashi Anti-Fantasy Arguement Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:08:15 2009 No.2917524

Oh btw, I should mention...
ANGE DIED IN 1998 it said so in the credits for episode four. Two more arguments are presented in this.

A.She was killed by the body guards.
B.She did the time warpy magic summoning admittity awesome ass kicking thing at the cliff which means that she died in that strange purple fog room with Battler AND NOT IN 1998.

Notice that something did not match up there but at that time beatrice wasn't present to distort it.
As virgilia said "Don't beleive everything you see"

As for Higurashi Multiple dimensions are not Magic nor a Miracle They are a legitmate devil's proof.
Just because we cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The ONLY magical part is that she's teleported to each one... Which can be denied out-right by the fact that she loses some of her memories from it.

Heres an explanation:
She has a special case of Himanziwa syndrome being the Queen carrier (Weither or not she is actually the queen carrier is also questionable)

A disease is not fantasy so I can hide under that arugement.
Brain altering disease is proven medically in the show.
Rika's case of the syndrome is also proven medically to be different. (This can explain Hanyuu and add to the disillusion case)
also the scene when she finds out Takano is after her can also be proven that she saw something she they were close after falling from that cliff that gave it away and her mind tricked her into beleive Hanyuu remember when actually she saw something.

Any Rika from other worlds is also illreleverent because that can be a seperate rika altogether. Which is just shown to you the viewer in a way that makes it look fantasy... Or maybe I should be lawyer.

Feel free to argue that however, if you can't than Schrödinger's cat will cover it fine.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 11:17:15 2009 No.2917553 >>2917524 OK. How does Rika have reliable information about the future (e.g. in Minagoroshi-hen she tells Irie that he'll die from a drug overdose and that "Takano's" corpse will be burned in the mountains) if its all a delusion?

Anti-fantasy Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:40:15 2009 No.2917628

I expected this, My knowledge of Higurashi isn't the best, because when I made my arugements for Umineko I finished the book a week prior.

Back to higurashi, First off How sure are you that these events occur. Was it shown that they died of this particular death in that Arc if not my arugement stands. How she knew that they died like this is irrelivent because weither or not they died like that in this particular arc Is not shown.

I could argue that you would die of this. But you don't but in a different reality you did. That chance exists however I could making up this factor X that kills you.

Btw Beatrice hands battler the first episode win. That is all that matters, Bernkastel and Lambdadelta's conversation is also illrelivent because it is with two creatures battler denies.

I'm only doing this because I want to give anti-fantasy a fighting chance.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 10 12:03:15 2009 No.2917754 >>2917628 The autopsies conducted by the police confirm the causes of death. That's how they died.

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