/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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Who, aaaaaaaam I.....? Sat Jun 27 20:23:42 2009 No.2852439 [Reply] [Original]

So lets get some discussion rolling, given the fact that in a week or so we'll have to start spoiler tagging again.

So who do you think Beatrice is, really? I see 3 real possibilities: 1) Jessica. She's the most physically similar, and judging by the appearance of the portrait's subject, close in age. She's also the cousin closest to Battler, being the same age. Parentage has been questioned by Eva at least once.

2) Shannon. Also close in age, she started working for Kinzo at an extremely young age. Normally as we've been told ' only the most promising graduates' are accepted from the orphanage. From that and Kanon's age, it sound like they don't hire anyone until they complete their primary education. Yet she was hired at SIX. Did Kinzo need that time to indoctrinate her somehow to act as a vessel for his ceremony?

3) She's a child Kinzo took in. Maybe the daughter of Beato #2? Judging by the scene at the start of Episode 3, if it can be believed, she was raised in the main house, as a granddaughter to Kinzo. Krauss may have shipped her out to a boarding school after Kinzo died, or maybe she escaped. She must be slipping onto the island sometime after the first twilight, allowing her to slip through the loophole in the red.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:43:42 2009 No.2852569 Beatrice is the typhoon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:47:42 2009 No.2852592 Kinzo is Battler.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:49:42 2009 No.2852605 Beatrice is Kinzo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:50:42 2009 No.2852611 I can use a lot of twisted logic to turn Shannon into Beatrice. But I don't want to.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:53:42 2009 No.2852637 Kanon is Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:54:42 2009 No.2852641 I think there's no Beatrice on the island. Her appearances in EP2 and 4 are lies and hallucinations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:54:42 2009 No.2852644 >>2852605 >>2852592 Therefore Beatrice is Battler. So Battler is having a battle of wits with himself, and witches don't exist in the end.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 20:54:42 2009 No.2852650 Maria did it with the power of imagination.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Sat Jun 27 20:55:42 2009 No.2852653 >given the fact that in a week or so we'll have to start spoiler tagging again No we won't. Anyone planning to avoid the visual novels and just watch the anime probably shouldn't be on this board anyway.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:03:42 2009 No.2852689

Some pretty good theories have been floated about all three. I myself wrote a pretty in depth theory that Jessica was Beatrice. Since then, my thinking has shifted somewhat, more into the lines that Beatrice is another replacement Beatrice, maybe even the daughter of Beatrice #2. She was probably kept pretty isolated, although Krauss and his family were probably aware of her.

I think Kinzo made her the heir. He probably gave her the ring himself. As Kyrie said, the letters had the tone of someone concietedly challenging them to a game they had already won. After Kinzo died, Krauss sent her to a boarding school (hence the fancy school uniform), and hid Kinzo's death, probably hoping he could keep them on ice (haha) until he came up with a plan to take back the headship.

Natsuhi, Nanjo, and all the servants aside from maybe Gohda are also complicit. Beatrice, however, had plans of her own- some kind of grudge with Battler, and the rest of the family to deal with. She used money Kinzo set up ahead of time to bribe the servants, had one of them deliver the letter to Maria, and snuck onto the island sometime after her accomplices carried out the first twilight. Except for Episode 3, where her accomplices were killed.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Sat Jun 27 21:06:42 2009 No.2852708 Gohda is the only one who has appeared almost completely innocent and without motive so far. Therefore, he is the culprit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:07:42 2009 No.2852715 >>2852708 Would be too obvious. He is the only one who was unlikeable and only good for cooking.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:11:42 2009 No.2852732 >>2852715 What the hell, I like Gohda. He's very professional. And he has some good moments, like in episode 2, when he trys to block the door against the goat monsters.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:11:42 2009 No.2852738

Beatrice is just a hallucination, Battler is the killer who needs a psychologist because he killed everyone and then he creates his own world where he didn't kill anyone, but he failed and ended up crazy; and the small bombs will reign all over the WORLD!!!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:18:42 2009 No.2852776 >>2852708 Some suspect he's a mole planted by the Sumadera. I do feel like maybe they're playing a role in all this, although I doubt it's through Gohda. I feel "Beatrice" is either Shannon or a mysterious new girl.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:19:42 2009 No.2852781

>>2852732

That never happened.

>>2852689

I actually rather like this theory, though I've also been floating around many theories with which the servants are the main culprits, and get the aid of one sibling for the first twilight each game. Except 3, where a sibling just killed them instead, or told the other siblings instead of helping, and then any/all of the siblings could've killed them instead. Pet theory was that episode 1 had Eva being told of the gold and aiding in the first twilight, episode 2 had Rosa, and episode 3 had Rudolf, who refused and told the siblings, and then the servants... Did something. Eva is who I suspect killed them and set up the closed room chain, but the how and potential accomplices are still coming up blank for me.

Anyways, I like that one, as it makes sense of the reinforcements method to allow Culprit X to exist, as well as making it extremely possible that Genji is the only servant following her orders, which makes sense, given that he's a godamn robot that would kill himself (or let himself be killed) by whoever Kinzo told him to listen to.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:27:42 2009 No.2852819

>>2852781

Oh right, and to carry on, it was hinted at that a boat could get to the island, and that certain boats knew of the hidden dock of Kuwadorian, to deliver food/goods. The boat captain Ange talked to claims that deliveries stopped in 1968, but who's to say other boats didn't still make the trip, with Beatrice III living there quietly? And one of those boat captains could've rather liked Beatrice, and perhaps have been an accomplice to her dastardly scheme, utilizing the assets Kinzo left her (what Krauss hadn't embezzled, or perhaps she actually used some of the gold) to send out the money to the victims' families, as well as bribing whoever she needed.

Speaking of throwing money at problems, ANGE IS BEATRICE (Not ANGE Beatrice, time traveling ANGE Beatrice who hates her dick family, especially that asshole Battler who moved out with some blonde whore and never visited)

If we assume the hidden passage between Kuwadorian and the mansion does exist, then it's quite possible that the servants (or just Genji, whatever) killed the first sex, signal to Beatrice that it's clear for her to come back (maybe Rudolf and Krauss know she exist? Rudolf's an extremely common target, and Krauss and Genji are mutually exclusive survivors of the first twilight), and wreck the communications equipment.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:30:42 2009 No.2852834

>>2852819

>If we assume the hidden passage between Kuwadorian and the mansion does exist, then it's quite possible that the servants (or just Genji, whatever) killed the first sex, signal to Beatrice that it's clear for her to come back (maybe Rudolf and Krauss know she exist? Rudolf's an extremely common target, and Krauss and Genji are mutually exclusive survivors of the first twilight), and wreck the communications equipment.

Wow, that paragraph sucked. The first six, signaled, wrecked. Numbers and intercourse, past and present tense, things just went miserably awry.

In any case, I like it. It still leaves the question of 'I will kill you' up in the air, but poison's already been hinted at as a legitimate option, and we've had zero hints about a 'Beatrice' popping out after the disaster, so perhaps it's a double suicide with her beloved Battler? Poison herself, Maria, and Battler, and go to the Golden Land!

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:31:42 2009 No.2852839

>>2852641
EP2 could easily be lies and deceit (of the 6 people to see her face, only Rosa can't really be explained away), but any scene that Battler sees is as real as the red truth, so that schoolgirl definitely did appear.

>>2852644
It goes strongly against the code of detective novels to have the detective be the culprit. Because it invalidates the entire rest of the book.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:33:42 2009 No.2852850 I believe in Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:33:42 2009 No.2852854 Beatrice is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1967 who was rescued from Kinzo by Nanjo and raised by a couple who couldn't get a child and called her Jessica.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:35:42 2009 No.2852864

>>2852781
One big problem with ep2 wrt to gold is that 3 bars are left on the table. So certainly, someone already knew about the secret passage before the second day, but I can't see it being Rosa given how desperately she clings on to those 3 bars at the end; if she knew where the mountain was why care about only those 3?

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:39:42 2009 No.2852885

>>2852864

Well, I've been saying assisting, but Rosa was only necessary at all to provide evidence of the closed room. Say Genji tries the door and says it's locked. The other servants aren't going to argue, they believe him, he's the most experienced and trusted head servant. Rosa shows up, also tries the door, says it's locked. This makes the 'fact' that the door is locked almost rock solid, as to largely unrelated people verified it, but we know the key never passed through Maria's hands.

So unless you think a servant went and fetched Maria out of the cousins' room, and returned her, with no one noticing, you've got to assume it was Rosa + servant(s).

Now, I don't think Rosa's being all that horribly deceitful in episode 2. Aiding in her siblings' deaths was all I wanted to pin on her, I mean, she vomited and cried her eyes out upon seeing how horrible their corpses were, and the second she got a gun, she flipped on her previous 'accept the witch' spiel and tried her hardest to get the servants the hell away from Maria, Battler, and George. Then she got paranoid, and George and Battler were included.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:40:42 2009 No.2852894

>>2852854
Actually, that makes me wonder: why did Eva and Hideyoshi have only George? Why not raise another kid?
The other siblings are understandable, but the only excuse I can think of is that Eva truly believed she could be the next head and didn't want to raise another 2nd like herself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:42:42 2009 No.2852897 >>2852885 Didn't Beatrice declare in red that the door was locked?

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:42:42 2009 No.2852898

Beatrice is an AI.
Her bodies are real persons that she manipulated through their brainchips. The original Beatrice, Kinzo's lover, was experimented on by Kinzo and Nanjo, because Kinzo was batshit insane and wanted the perfect wife. The plan backfired when the AI became self-aware and refused Kinzo.
Everyone with Ushiromiya "blood" has a brainchip but doesn't know about it, except Battler of course who is faking the whole time.
Magic is in fact computer programs. The stakes, the rabbits, Genji/Kanon/Shannon are trained hackers.
The island is full of wireless networks, making the use of cell phones impossible. When the AI isn't trapped inside a body, she wanders through these networks and can be anywhere. Wired phones can be controlled by the AI.
Asumu's family is a rival family to the Ushiromiya one. They also developed a hacking technology and trained the rabbits. Also, they have a prototype of Beatrice (the schoolgirl one).
When Battler learned the truth about these chips, he parted with his family to develop countermeasures along with Asumu's family. You could say he has a good firewall, that's why he is "immune" to magic.
Battler's sin is linked with the existence of schoolgirl-Beatrice and Asumu's parents.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:44:42 2009 No.2852909

>>2852885

Seriously, I am failing pretty hard at typing today. Two, and passed FROM Maria's hands to someone else's hands, ie never left her possession, even if someone resealed the envelope for her after she used the key.

Anyways, Genji brings drinks to the siblings, but has warned Rosa beforehand (upon meeting with her in the rose garden maybe?) to simply pretend to drink. The siblings are drugged, dragged to the chapel, and eviscerated, Takano style. Genji throws the bars on the table, knowing that Rosa would only see them, and the letter she had probably already read to the siblings (altered to be more menacing), after supporting his locked door statement, and already becoming an accomplice, trapped in a web of lies so she can't be proven as an accessory to multiple homicides.

As to WHY the vast difference between episode 1 and 2's first twilights... I'm not so sure at all. I'm drawing a blank beyond 'whim', as Genji cannot operate on whims, being a robot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:45:42 2009 No.2852911 >>2852898 You do know this is set in 1986, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:47:42 2009 No.2852921 >>2852911 I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:47:42 2009 No.2852926 >>2852911 Umineko is full of anachronism Let's just say Kinzo and Nanjo were geniuses and spent their life researching private shit on the island

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:48:42 2009 No.2852929

>>2852897

># Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door
># Only one key to the chapel exists
># It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
># When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
># Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
># This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
># That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the key to the chapel
># The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing

It's implied heavily, but never stated, for reasons I think fit with what I've been putting forward. I don't like that someone would be able to take Maria out of the room, have her willingly lock the door, and put her back in, because that by itself ruins quite a few alibis for other twilights.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:51:42 2009 No.2852949 >>2852929 ># When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit I like how red text explicitly denies that Beatrice entered using magic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 21:54:42 2009 No.2852968 >>2852898 ...

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:00:42 2009 No.2853009

I also believe that Beatrice to be option three, slipping onto the island after the first twilight. I'm not so certain that she's the mastermind--although in at least some episodes she'd probably have to at least be an accomplice.

And though I believe in that theory, it probably needs to be explained why she obviously wasn't "raised" as Beatrice (whether or not her real name is Maria, as per another theory), and why, even though he presumably had her around, Kinzo was still crying and whining about wanting to see "Beatrice" again until his death.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:00:42 2009 No.2853015

>>2852819
>>2852834
I theorized in the past that Jessica was actuallt Rudolph and Asumu's daughter, taken at birth and replaced by Kyrie's baby, with Kyrie being told she had lost the child afterwards. The same scenario could be applied to 'Beatrice' though. Think. When Kinzo finds out his stupid second son is going around knocking girls up, he gets to thinking about his own dissatisfaction with Krauss as an heir. And he needs a new 'Beatrice' to serve as a vessel in his ceremony. So he kills three birds with one stone; He takes Beatrice from Asumu and leans on the hospital Kyrie went to, getting them to take her baby and tell her she miscarried, transferring the newborn son to Rudolph and Asumu. This gets rid of the whole unpleasantness of Rudolph having a bastard son. He gets his replacement Beatrice, and by naming her the heir, he spurns Krauss.

You could also put it so he gave the child to Krauss, since he was unhappy with Krauss and Natsuhi's failure to produce an heir. Though this leaves us back at having to figure out who it was Battler met.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:01:09 2009 No.2853016 >>2852929 Plus ># Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands I'm starting to like this theory.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:02:42 2009 No.2853021 File: 83 KB, 670x480, beatoore.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2852949 In Ep.1's Tea Party Beato used the Stakes for kill Hideyoshi and Eva. So there's no point for her to enter in the Chapel.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:04:42 2009 No.2853028 >>2852929 Plus ># Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands and that Maria's Keiichi that certainly sounds likely. I still like the small bombs theory better though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:06:42 2009 No.2853046 >>2853015 Why not the simpler theory that it was Asumu's baby was stillborn and Battler is Kyrie's son? I really doubt Beatice/Jessica is involved in that story.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:08:42 2009 No.2853062

>>2853046
Yeah, I agree. I think the whole real Battler/fake Battler thing is nothing but a huge red herring, and the only place it will come into play is possible motivation for Kyrie and/or Rudolf. Beatrice did tell Battler she didn't give a fuck about his immediate family, after all.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:09:42 2009 No.2853070

>>2853046

That's what I was thinking... Asumu found out she was pregnant first. Rudolf quickly engaged her, found out Kyrie was pregnant, and was in a predicament. To 'disengage' her would bring embarrassment, and perhaps a disowning by dick-Kinzo, and disowning means no more business loans.

So Asumu miscarries, but Rudolf's already almost a year into his engagement, and decides that to keep up his image, he would simply switch his other son in, perhaps bribing the hospital to fool Kyrie, maybe even asking Kyrie directly. Who knows, maybe she's always loved Rudolf that much, and her envy was even deeper than she had ranted at Leviathan about. After all, Battler would be an even worse reminder that Asumu stole her husband for 10 damn years than if he was actually Asumu's son, and it would hurt her even more when Battler left the household to live with Asumu's grandparents.

... It feels like I'm painting Kyrie to be the killer or something.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:11:42 2009 No.2853074 >>2853070 I think Kyrie is hugely suspicious, so hey, works for me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:11:42 2009 No.2853075 >>2852949 I don't think the red text ever applies to magic, because if it did the game would end in stalemate with Battler no longer able to accept the red.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:11:42 2009 No.2853076 >>2853062 Yeah, not being Asumu's kid doesn't equal not being Rudolf's.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:14:42 2009 No.2853087

>>2853074

I've always deliberately never suspected her of anything negative. Her and Rudolf are clear of any and all suspicion in my book. No specific reason, even though Kyrie is WILDLY suspicious, what with always being too damn calm, and too damn clever. She hints at too much.

Still though, never her, and never Rudolf. Also, never Belphegor.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:19:42 2009 No.2853113

>>2853087
I keep waiting for the backstory to paint Rudolf in as an unsavory light as the other siblings. But the worst is knocking up two girls at once (who didn't hate him for it) and maybe switching their babies.

Heck, even Hideyoshi has been implied to be more slimy than him.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:23:42 2009 No.2853133

>>2852839
>any scene that Battler sees is as real as the red truth
This is a downright lie. Nowhere has Piece Battler's POV been guaranteed to be valid. It's just an assumption a lot of people make to have slightly more evidence than the red text alone.

If you assumed everything Keiichi saw was real, you'd never solve onikakushi-hen.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:24:42 2009 No.2853136

Something I want to bring up that I think is a potentially important clue, but doesn't carry over in translation: speaking pattern.

Beatrice, almost all of the time, speaks with a very distinctive, archaic way, using "warawa" for "I", "sonata", for you, etc. The Beatrice Rosa met, who died, spoke this way. The piece-Beatrice Battler met on the balcony also spoke this way.

There are a few points, though, when she switches to a more modern way of speaking, using "watashi" for I. The best way I can describe it is that it's a very "plain" manner of speech most of the time, it's not distinctively rough like Jessica's or Battler's. But the points at which she switches are interesting, and suggest to me that the switching might be very important: when she's lamenting over how she can't win, and how she isn't reflect in Battler's eyes, she uses watashi. During the final riddle culminating in the "who am I?" too. The flashing red text is very interesting: "Please kill me quickly" uses watashi, and then right after that, "Try and stop me" uses warawa.

The letters sent out by the witch, by the way, all use "watashi". When Maria quotes 'Beatrice' in Episode 1 when Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are murdered, the quote also uses 'watashi'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:27:42 2009 No.2853154 >>2853136 But what could it mean? There's a new beato and an old beatrice?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:27:42 2009 No.2853155 >>2853136 ... interesting.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:30:42 2009 No.2853177

>>2853087
...hang on a tic here

Sure, The third twilight was Eva.

But Battler always lives through every single Twilight. He is the only one to accomplish this as far as I know.

Kyrie and Rudolf would be in the perfect position to make sure Battler survives if they're the culprits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:31:42 2009 No.2853185 >>2853177 er.. episode three was Eva, not the third twilight.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:32:42 2009 No.2853191

>>2853046
I think there is a major tie in between Beatrice and Battler's real parents, just because of the timing.

Beatrice gets butthurt over Battler not remembering his sin, and thus the first thing she does is questions his bloodline. I know the evidence is weak, but I feel that it would be easier to trick Kyrie only rather than trick both Kyrie and Asumu in regards to her birth.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:32:42 2009 No.2853193

>>2853136

I'd like to make sure of something, the second letter in episode 3, the one found next to Kinzo's corpse and the chapel key: does that use warawa? It seems written in a more forceful style, befitting 'witch Beatrice' rather than 'mopey Beatrice', as the changes in speech seem to reflect existing.

Still, the piece Beatrice on the balcony... That one's a bit odd, I would've expected that one to use watashi, given the precedents you listed.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:33:42 2009 No.2853198

>>2853154
My interpretation of it so far is that using the archaic style--"warawa", etc--is the "proper" speaking style of the witch/Beatrice. Rosa's Beatrice spoke this way, so she must have had it taught to her, given her background, to better fit the role of being Kinzo's lost lover. That makes the letters potentially very interesting, since the person writing them is trying to play the part of "Beatrice" to the fullest extent--did the author not know how Beatrice is supposed to speak?

As for when Beato herself switches, since we know she wasn't born with the name Beatrice and only decided to become her after talking with Kumasawa/Virgilia, I would think the implication is "warawa" is, again, acting the part of the witch--while "watashi" is the real girl, whoever she is.

Oh, right, I forgot--that flashback with Virgilia at the beginning of Episode 3 is also narrated using "watashi".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:37:42 2009 No.2853228 >>2853193 All of the witches' letters in the TIPS use "watashi", that one included. The only exception is the "praise my name" one from Episode 1, which just quotes the epitaph which uses a completely different pronoun.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:38:42 2009 No.2853240

>>2853177

How do Rudolf and Kyrie guarantee anything? In both episodes 1 and 2, both of them are killed in the first twilight, and I highly doubt that they're depraved killers completely in control of the situation when they were murdered. Kyrie you could argue being a culprit in 4, but that's mostly just because she happened to survive. Though... One thought does arise. Eva killed Hideyoshi and Rudolf after Kyrie took them to 'get food'. We only suppose Kyrie found a cigarette in Eva's room, what if she simply picked it up after Hideyoshi smoked in the mansion or outside, and was assisting Eva in luring Rudolf/Hideyoshi to their deaths and was simply betrayed? ... Not exactly a solid theory, but there's nothing to implicitly deny it, I don't think. Came to mind because a friend of mine thought Battler's logic was too flawed in instantly assuming the cigarette Kyrie had was found in Eva's room.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:39:42 2009 No.2853242 >>2853198 >the real girl, whoever she is. I say we call her Mariatrice, since that's the closest hint we have to her real name.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:46:42 2009 No.2853288

The problem I have with saying Asumu miscarried is that it brings too many coincidences into a scenario that doesn't need any. Beatrice #2 died, Jessica and Battler are born, and it just so happens that Rudolph has an extra child due when Krauss and Natsuhi have been trying for TWELVE YEARS with no success. People usually start talking about adoption or artificial insemination at that point. But then Natsuhi miraculously becomes 'pregnant'. Hell, even Eva called Jessica's parentage into question in Ep 3.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:50:42 2009 No.2853309 >>2853288 But then why give Krauss Asumu's child and keep Kyrie's as Asumu's? That's even more complicated; besides with a male and a female why would Krauss get the female to be the successor?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:51:42 2009 No.2853321 >>2853288 Meant to point out that all these events took place in the same year, my bad.

>>	Boogiepop !!OjDUc+2Aelm Sat Jun 27 22:53:42 2009 No.2853329 Twist Beatrice is Asumu

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:55:42 2009 No.2853338

>>2853309
Kinzo may have had a roll in that. Kinzo may have though that (with Jessica's hair color) she may have been an excellent candidate for a new vessel for Beatrice. Thus he told Krauss to accept her, so she would be closer to Kinzo. Kinzo may have also told Rudolf to give up his daughter in order to get a bigger cut of inheritance.

As for Asumu taking Kyrie's child, all you would need to do is bribe a few doctors and the child swap would be simple. Just inform Kyrie that her child miscarried and tell Asumu that she had a son. Boom, both mothers are none the wiser.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:58:42 2009 No.2853352

>>2853309
Reason 1 is easy- Asumu hasn't been shown to us yet. I bet she's blonde. That might be enough for Kinzo to want her. Reason 2 is a bit more dfficult: Rudolph had already married Asumu. That made Kyrie's child a bastard. Kinzo was very strict about such things, so if he had to choose between a legitimate child and a bastard to make the heir... Good bet is he'd take the legitimate child, and pawn off the bastard to Rudolph.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 22:59:42 2009 No.2853354

>>2853309
Beggars can't be choosers. Rudolf knew Battler's chances of gaining the headship would be higher if he was the only male born to a male born of Kinzo, and even higher if he was the "legitimate" son of Rudolf. Krauss gambled on the chance of him becoming the head and passing it whoever he chooses, while Rudolf gambled on the chance of his generation being found unworthy to maximize the chance for his son.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:03:42 2009 No.2853377

>>2853338
That's a good point: how the hell does Jessica have blond hair? It's incredibly unlikely that there was any foreign blood in Kinzo, being from a strong Japanese family. Maybe his legal wife had some, but that's unlikely given that it was an arranged marriage so she's probably from another strong Japanese family. Natsuhi was also from a very Japanese family line. Asumu sounds like she was too.

And yet noone but Eva has questioned her parentage...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:06:42 2009 No.2853390 >>2853352 And let's not forget Reason 3: Kyrie is a Sumadera. Kinzo would have to be off his rocker making a bastard son of the Sumaderas his heir. Look what happened to Ange.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:09:42 2009 No.2853404 >>2853377 And Eva's the one with red hair. Maybe she should be questioning her own heritage.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:10:42 2009 No.2853412

Speaking of the speech patterns, one of the smaller details that makes me skeptical of Jessica=Beatrice lies in those, too. Jessica's has a very distinctive, rough speech pattern that is associated with her "real self"; Natsuhi scolds her when she uses it. Beatrice also slipping into the "watashi" speech pattern also seems to imply it reflects a "real self" lurking in there somewhere. Those two speech patterns? Don't match up. Beatrice does start flipping into a very coarse, Jessica/Battler-style "da zeeeee" pattern when she's killing George, Shannon, and Gohda in Episode 2, but she's also using "warawa" at the same time, so...

But again, the real killer for the "Jessica is Asumu's child=Beatrice" thing for me is, again, "I have no interest in your immediate family."

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:10:42 2009 No.2853414 >>2853390 >Kinzo >off his rocker Your point?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:11:42 2009 No.2853419 >>2853390 Jumping off a roof is a perfectly normal activity for children; just ask Madotsuki. episode 4 was one big delusion in Ange's last moment before being going splat

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:11:42 2009 No.2853421

>>2853377
You know, when Battler sees Beatrice's portrait, he specifically notes it has "blonde hair, which makes her look like a foreigner, not someone of Japanese descent." (roughly quoting from memory) That makes me think Jessica might have dyed her hair, or something like that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:13:42 2009 No.2853430 I don't think any direct hints to Beatrice's identity would be in her speech patterns. If two characters speak exactly the same and one doesn't exist, anyone would think they're the same person.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:13:42 2009 No.2853431 >>2853404 As long as we're swapping children, Maria is Eva's unwanted second child foisted off onto Rosa

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:17:42 2009 No.2853453 the culprit is maria's father

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:18:42 2009 No.2853459 >>2853430 Yeah, like I said, it's pretty soft evidence, but it did strike me as kind of odd if, Jessica was Beatrice's real identity, Beatrice's 'hidden' speech pattern wouldn't reflect hers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:20:42 2009 No.2853468 File: 48 KB, 643x510, haircolor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2853421 Jessica is right next to Battler when he's thinking this, so lol.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:26:42 2009 No.2853497 >>2853421 You think Natsuhi would let dye her hair? Really? Do you?

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:36:42 2009 No.2853547

>>2853459
Given the circumstances, what with the Beatrice exchange, changing speech patterns and mood swings, Beatrice herself seems to have another personality, her own status as an alter personality notwithstanding. So I'm not sure her speech patterns can really be taken too deeply to heart as proof she isn't Jessica, Shannon etc...

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:42:42 2009 No.2853581

>>2853547
Let's keep in mind that Beatrice could be several people who are taking on her name to suit their own purposes. I think there is a "core" person, named Maria, but that doesn't mean that every time we see "Beatrice" doing something, it's "Maria".

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 23:49:42 2009 No.2853607

>>2853581

'Seeing Beatrice do something' is incredibly rare.

Thus far there is no murder that is impossible save for an outsider, there's always been some loophole, some small gap. The problem is that you have to pin the blame on someone new each time. For episode 1, you pin culprit status on Kanon, and accomplice status on Nanjo. If you can assume a real 'Beatrice', aka Culprit X shows up, then you can absolve Kanon from guilt, and keep Nanjo down to 'assisting Natsuhi and Krauss' status.

I mean, the 6th-8th twilights in episode 1 make quite a bit of sense if you assume the 'heir that was sent off by Krauss is orchestrating Genji to kill everyone'. She shows back up, has Maria help her (Maria's been meeting with her every year) sow dissent, probably with Genji's help as well, and Genji just stands still or even helps while she gets revenge on Nanjo for betraying Kinzo's wishes in having her be heir, as well as fucking up Kumasawa for feeding her bullshit about magic (that one's less solid but what the fuck ever).

She then lures Natsuhi out and kills her too, since she's an accomplice to Krauss basically deporting her ass to buy time to steal from her. Though why Natsuhi wouldn't be dead in the first twilight is up for grabs... Maybe Shannon was found when they were going to kill Natsuhi, since Shannon wasn't supposed to be there, and the number had to be six.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:11:42 2009 No.2853698
File: 170 KB, 1280x1024, d0c45e9219180b5d5a21a39cc4b30b73.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Something just popped up to me. I was listening to Mozart (I saw a link to Requiem in D Minor on /rs/, and I'd had that music stolen from me before, so I downloaded it), and I noticed that the second song is titled 'Kyrie'. As in, "Kýrie, eléison".

Lord, have mercy, in Latin. If you look at the statement in Greek, it could also be a prayer of thanksgiving for the Lord being merciful. That sure sounds similar to the Hebrew written on the first magic circle.

And here I'd just seen her name and thought 'oh, Japanese name because she's a Sumadera'.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:16:42 2009 No.2853714 they're all smallbombs

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:20:42 2009 No.2853749

>>2853698
Kirie isn't a very common name in Japan. Maybe if it'd been Kirei or Kiri. It should have been obvious from the way it was spelled what it was referencing.

Though I won't blame you for not knowing Christian mumbo jumbo. I only learned of it from Kotomine.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:26:42 2009 No.2853768

>>2853607
>she gets revenge on Nanjo for betraying Kinzo's wishes in having her be heir
Huh? What say did Nanjo have in who would be heir?

>Though why Natsuhi wouldn't be dead in the first twilight is up for grabs...
The best theory I've heard with this is the culprit noticed (or gave her...) that protective charm, and left her live with the blood scratches as a way to shift blame to witches.

Which brings the question, who? Natsuhi herself could be an accomplice to 1st twilight; she was peeved at Krauss because he kept the gold a secret from her and dissed her usefulness.

However, more likely it was found by chance by the same culprit or accomplice with knowledge of obscure magic circles that's been drawing them. The most likely is Maria (the 3rd game has no circles after she dies), but that seems too obvious. So, did Genji or Nanjo take up the occult as a way of trying to understand Kinzo? Or were they not really his closest friends as implied by them keeping his death a secret?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:27:42 2009 No.2853769 >>2853749 I just wanted to point out I was intelligent because I was listening to Mozart. Also, she is clearly the killer because of her name.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:30:42 2009 No.2853788

>>2853768

>Huh? What say did Nanjo have in who would be heir?

Nanjo would have to assist, after all, he's saying Kinzo isn't dead. The only reason he really has to say that is Kinzo's wishes, or Krauss/Natsuhi hiding it. If we assume Kinzo named the new Beatrice as the heir like the theory is assuming, there's no way he'd ask Nanjo to say he was alive after he was dead.

I was thinking that they accidentally found Shannon, or Shannon found them in the act, and they had to kill her, but because of the epitaph, are limited to six killings, Krauss/Rudolf/Rosa were the targets, Gohda/Kyrie were extras that were around and killed to keep their silence, and Natsuhi was the proposed sixth target, but since Shannon interfered, they had to leave her alive, and just put some shit on her door as a threat or something. They wouldn't even have to know about the scorpion charm, it would just be an added bonus.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:31:42 2009 No.2853795 >>2853768 I'm under the impression that because of the small details of the paintings, that they are actually made with some sort of huge stamp, rather than actually painted on there.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 00:46:42 2009 No.2853855

>>2853581
I agree with this. I suspect that part of the reason Episode 2 is billed as the hardest to solve is that there's "Mariatrice" running around, but there's also one or maybe even more people impersonating her on top of that, carrying out different murders, but they're all portrayed to us, and Battler, as the same "Beatrice".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 01:31:42 2009 No.2854047 >>2853185 I don't think that Eva did episode 3. It's just too obvious, and Beatrice succumbed too easily to that explanation. It cannot be that simple.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 01:39:42 2009 No.2854081

>>2854047

I would like to think it's not that obvious as well, but there's not that much information, but most everyone has solid alibis, so it usually comes down to Eva/Hideyoshi, the other siblings/spouses, or Nanjo, in those specific groups. Nanjo doesn't seem like he could (or would) impale Rosa's head on a fence post and strangle Maria to death, and I don't think Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, and Natsuhi walked outside and ended Maria/Rosa either, even IF Maria is an annoying little twat.

Moving on to Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi's deaths... Again, Nanjo, or Krauss/Natsuhi. Easy enough to pin on Krauss and Natsuhi, but considering the second was most likely Eva, it makes more sense to assume a string, and that Hideyoshi got on her case about the wanton murders being kind of immoral and she killed him too.

Krauss/Natsuhi comes down to Nanjo or Eva... Again, Nanjo doesn't seem capable... And after that, well, that's all hazy. Nanjo stabs George, George kills Nanjo, then dies, Jessica stumbles around with a faggot ghost following her, Eva shoots Batter, eats Jessica, mindfucks Ange, the end.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 02:47:42 2009 No.2854391

Just for the hell of it:

First twilight survival rate:

Battler: 4/4
George: 4/4
Jessica: 4/4
Maria: 4/4
Eva: 2/4
Hideyoshi: 2/4
Natsuhi: 2/4
Krauss: 2/4
Rudolf: 1/4
Kyrie: 2/4
Rosa: 2/4
Shannon: 2/4
Kanon: 3/4
Nanjo: 4/4
Kumasawa: 3/4
Gohda: 2/4
Genji: 2/4
Kinzo: lololol

shitsux, huh, rudolf?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 02:50:42 2009 No.2854403 >>2854391 And he's the best dad too...

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:05:42 2009 No.2854468

>>2854081
Let's sit down and think carefully for a few moments. Consider for a moment that Eva might not have killed anyone other than Battler. Think back to the end of Episode 3. Battler and Eva had been running all over looking for George's killer. Jessica fled from the servant's quarters after hearing Nanjo be murdered, winding up back in the parlor. Now, Battler and Eva have just found Nanjo's corpse, and go back to the parlor where they 'find Jessica'. Battler freaks out, accuses Eva of being the killer, and Eva laughs saying 'it took you too long to notice, Battler-kuuuun', and shoots him. Jessica says and does nothing in this scene. Why?

Simple answer- she's already dead. NOW shit gets real. This should be standing on a level with Nanjo's death. Jessica died, and even the person who killed Nanjo doesn't seem to be applicable, unless they followed or carried her to the parlor, killed her, and THEN died. EVA and Beatrice had a prime chance to fling an even nastier puzzle in Battler's face and declined. Why?

Another simple answer- Beatrice doesn't want Battler to even realize the fact of Jessica's death at that time. There is something to Jessica's death that made EVA and Beato decide it was best to just avoid the whole issue. Even if a mortally wounded Hideyoshi or someone killed Nanjo, would they have followed Jessica all the way to the parlor to kill her, or killed her and carried her there?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:14:42 2009 No.2854504 >>2854391 Your father dies for your sin, Battler! Remember!

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:14:42 2009 No.2854507

>>2854468

Look at things from Eva's perspective for a moment- everyone but her and Battler are dead. She knows neither she nor Battler killed Nanjo or Jessica. But they died, Hideyoshi and George died, Krauss and Natsuhi and everyone else, all died. So why is Battler alive? And why is a code with his birthday inside printed on the door to the room George died in?

Obviously there is someone else on that island, and they've been killing everyone they can. Was Eva exempt because she had found the gold? Or was she just lucky? Either way, Battler is suspicious. He's alive, there's a code with his birthday on the door where George died, and he's been following Eva around watching her like a hawk for a while now.

I don't think it's too unrealistic to think Eva shot Battler believing he was an accomplice to the killer. And given the circumstances, she isnt exactly wrong...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:21:42 2009 No.2854525 >>2854507 My pet theory is that Battler might have attacked Eva once he had made up his mind that she was the culprit, leading Eva to shoot him in self-defense, but this makes a lot of sense too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:37:42 2009 No.2854550 >>2854507 Since the culprit wants Battler to isolate from the others (I think), she was probably going for Eva as the next target. But if Eva killed Battler, then the true culprit may have lost it's motive, so just decided to move along.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:40:42 2009 No.2854553 >>2854550 Eva states she ended up hiding in Kuwadorian from the killer. I don't think the killer would just be like, "eh, whatever," if Battler ended up dead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 03:48:42 2009 No.2854571 File: 212 KB, 640x480, 1242137769966.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 04:15:42 2009 No.2854667 >>2853698 Kyrie Asumu ryu07 named them after priest spells from Ragnarok Online.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:07:42 2009 No.2854833

I translated some important points of Ryuukishi07's interviews.
English isn't my first language, so this translation isn't good.
I hope someone translates the whole of the interviews more better.

EP3
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/107/107667/
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/109/109077/
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/110/110681/
EP4
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/144/144722/
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/146/146589/
http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/147/147660/

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:08:42 2009 No.2854836

EP3:

"At first I was planning to make EP3 more difficult, and the planned title was 'Land of the golden witch'. But I heard lots of players saying EP2 was too difficult, so I decided to make EP3 easier. It's 'Banquet of the golden witch'. That's why some support characters appeared in it. 'Banquet' revealed even some facts which had been planned to be revealed in answer arcs."

"There is only one truth in Rokkenjima. However, lots of parts of the story are blank, so the truth can't be seen. It's like a board we always see on TV shows. Some texts are written on it, but some parts of them are covered with the tapes, to hide true answers.
If something like '?' was written on the tapes, it wouldn't be bad too much. But in Umineko's case, fake things are written on them, as if they really happened. At the worst case, you can't even notice that it's a thing written on the tape.
Ever since EP1, some players have been saying that this story was written by the last observer, and is in the wine-bottle. I thought they were fine, but actually they were weaker in fantasy than I expected."

"Umineko has more hints than Higurashi, so I think players might not be surprised highly.
Recently I checked manga of EP1 and was surprised that it had so many hints. Some lines seemed to be almost spoilers(laugh)."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:08:42 2009 No.2854839

"I have cautioned that problems you should solve aren't only culprit and tricks, and all things are targets for speculations, from the beginning. I hope you think about everything.
By the way, I love to hide things doubly, because when we get an answer, we tend to stop thinking any more."

"Thinking about Beatrice's thoughts and the goal is an interesting approach to the future of the Umineko world. Some mysterious factors might be explained with it. And it might be a chance to catch her off-guard that Lambdadelta mentioned. Lambdadelta is angry at it, though."

"You regard Bernkastel and Lambdadelta as just fanservices? Or something more than fanservices? It's a delicate question. We can call it a case which shows how human's subjectiveness is unreliable.
I know there is a character named Bernkstel in Higurashi, but don't know a character named Lambdadelta. Why is she regarded as a character who appeared in Higurashi?
We humans tend to accept unknown things by recognising them as known things.
It can be a trap whom those who have known about Higurashi are caught in more easily. Players who haven't played Higurashi would think they were just two witches. It hasn't been confirmed that 'previous game' they mentioned is Higurashi."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:09:42 2009 No.2854845

"In the first place, why do the murders have to be warned? If the purpose of 'Beatrice' was only to kill them, it would be useless. Why warned? And why are the murders executed with the same way as the epitaph?
And the witch's letter even says she will stop the murder if someone solve the epitaph.
Probably 'Beatrice' has a 100% way to massacre all humans in the island. But she somehow keeps her success rate 99.99%. So Eva survived in EP3. Why does she keep it 99.99% although she can do it 100%?
What does she think?"

sage Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:11:42 2009 No.2854850

"In Umineko's case, 'culprit' can be considered as 'phenomena', not 'individual person'. It hasn't been confirmed that 'Beatrice' is one person, at all. 'She' can be phenomena, wills of multiple persons, or accidental occurrences.
If once you understand the structure of 'Beatrice', you will be able to solve most of that world. 'Why does Beatrice have to play the game with Battler?', 'What are they interchanging?' etc..."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:12:42 2009 No.2854855

EP4:

"EP4 has lots of hints. It's a large chunk of hint. Since it was the final question arc, I put them. So it became a large volume."

"The epitaph has already been solvable. But it needs some public informations.
For example, there is a riddle like this:
Q: Why do dragons sleep during the daytime?
A: They are waiting for the knight coming.
It's solvable, but you are required to know that 'night' and 'knight' have the same pronunciation. I think this riddle is fair since that knowledge is public.
If the epitaph required the knowledge that players couldn't get, like 'Kinzo's favorite food is curry', it would be unfair. But it isn't. You can get the key and solve the riddle.
However it's extremely difficult, because you have to suppose countless places as Kinzo's hometown."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:13:42 2009 No.2854857

"'Maria's magic has a dark-side too' is one of themes I wanted to write in question arcs. I think it's a big hint.
It's obvious that it was necessary for Beatrice to meet Maria, for being Beatrice. Maria was the essential factor for constructing 'Beatrice'."

"I'm putting players reactions into the story. The name 'Witch Hunt', some theories about the epitaph, and impressions about difficulty...
I want to make Umineko as playing with players on the real-time. When I was creating Higurashi, I couldn't do it well. So I made Umineko's system able to do it.
But 'Ange x Mammon' is just a coincidence(laugh). I was planning to give to Mammon a role as Ange's friend, so I controlled Mammon's turns. Then, players began to imagine about Mammon since she had few turns.
I didn't want to avoid my plans because of players' reactions, so I wrote it just as planned."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:14:42 2009 No.2854861

"This time I generously gave hints about Siesta Sisters. But I wonder if everyone thinks their design just came from Touhou Project. I love Udonge(laugh).
Anyway, I hope players speculate with many ways. Stories about Siesta Sisters are implying that they, the murderers or the agents of the murder, perhaps have Maria as the origin..."

"Gaap is weird. Does she love odd clothes? What a terrible costume."

"We worked hard to make the effect in Tea Perty. We aimed to make you feel you are fighting with Battler together even if you aren't interested in speculating.
But after the debugging, BT reported 'players might think small bombs are the answer since that Tea Party is extremely passionate.' So I hurriedly added some red texts in '???'. I wasn't planning to make Lambdadelta use red text at the beginning."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:15:42 2009 No.2854864

"It's a difficult job to isolate characters. In the situations like theirs, people usually gather at one place and never try to leave from there alone. I have to make some reasons why they still try to do it.
But it's an interesting job at the same time. I've made various puzzles, and personally I think the most well-done puzzle is in EP3. I don't want to say which case it means because it can be a spoiler, though."

"When adults aren't victims of the first twilight, the murders become difficult. Adults have known useful things about the mansion, and can even get guns. Children can't do it.
I think I should make more stories that adults don't die at first. Next story is an answer arc, so I should contain something new into it...
Oh, it connects to the topic of 'Land of the golden witch'."

"In the previous interview, I said I rejected 'Land of the golden witch', the ex-planned EP3. But after EP4 was released, players' thoughts have developed more than I expected. I sometimes find theories which make me want to meet the posters. So now I've become to want to make 'Land'.
Possibly I rebuild 'Land' and release it as EP5. Of course I still have made nothing about EP5, so it might be changed. But I want to do it now.
The difficulty of 'Land' is still very high. Players might believe that things written in it is the answer. It's like Watanagashi-hen without Meakashi-hen. 'Mion was the culprit. THE END.'"

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:17:42 2009 No.2854868

"The fact Kinzo has already been dead before starting the game was planned to be revealed in EP5. But that theory became so popular after EP3. I thought it's redundant to keep it a secret, so revealed it in EP4."

"Closed rooms I made are classified to simple type. I made them mysteries which can be solved by one kind of keyword. I guess you can already answer to them, since EP4 gave you lots of hints.
I could make EP2's closed rooms well, but I personally think the best closed room is EP3's."

"I think Beatrice is easy with Battler, because she tries to talk to him. If she really had a strong will to accomplish the serial murder, she wouldn't play the game with Battler. Why is she easy? What does she want to do?
It's time to think about it, by turning the chessboard. When you finished EP1, 'the culprit' just seemed to want to kill everyone, so you couldn't find almost anything even if you turned the chessboard. But now it isn't.
I'm not mean too much, so you can find the outline of 'something' when you see the world-view of the story. For example, I haven't hidden settings such as 'George and Shannon aren't lovers, and they are cold-blooded people who try to get the wealth of Umishiromiya family'. You can get the answer from the world-view you have ever seen.........maybe. Hihihi."

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:18:42 2009 No.2854869

"Some of mystery novels have lost the realities by excessively aiming to puzzle. I want to explain Umineko's absurd murders with humans' mind, humans' heart, and tricks which make sense.....oh no, I seem to be saying witches don't exist. As you can see, Umineko is a fantasy, so please enjoy super magic battles(laugh)."

"Is it time to make Jessica use Master Spark?"

*end*

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:19:42 2009 No.2854876 Wow, this is actually pretty interesting. And informative. Thanks for translating that, bro.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:21:42 2009 No.2854888 >>2854869 >"Is it time to make Jessica use Master Spark?" FANART WHERE?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:21:42 2009 No.2854890 ........... ...................__ ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\ ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') .........\.................'...../ ..........''...\.......... _.·´ ............\..............( Cool translations, bro.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:24:42 2009 No.2854904 File: 51 KB, 400x600, c90db9ce6a990f86c03343a8e3c98982.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2854864 >I sometimes find theories which make me want to meet the posters. I-I hope I'm one of them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:28:42 2009 No.2854918 Thanks.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:35:42 2009 No.2854938

>>2854904

Which theories have you made? I never made anything too over the top, and just looked purely at who was physically capable of the murders and tried to fit a line through each murder. My theories are decently weak on motive though, since I have tended to just pick the smallest amount of culprits possible, rather than assuming that multiple parties and intents could be at work.

Currently I'm just thinking Genji + Beatrice III (schoolgirl Beatrice) is one party responsible, and manipulates the parents for the first twilights. Episode 3 and 4 I've just been thus far chalking up to Krauss fighting back, and Rudolf not being as easy to manipulate.

I'm decently sure I was the first one to think up Kanon being a very potential suspect for the end of episode 1 though, what with him never being confirmed dead.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:39:42 2009 No.2854948

I still say it's all some sort of plot by the Sumadera family to get the Ushiromiya fortune into Ange's hands, and then just exploit little Ange for their purposes. The only reason they follow the epitaph is to throw off the authorities. If they find out that everyone died according to this elaborate ritual, they wouldn't bother investigating further and potentially uncovering their plot.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:43:42 2009 No.2854970 >>2854948 >I still say it's all some sort of plot by the Sumadera family to get the Ushiromiya fortune into Ange's hands I think you mean Juuza's hands.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:43:42 2009 No.2854971

>>2854938

>I'm decently sure I was the first one to think up Kanon being a very potential suspect for the end of episode 1 though, what with him never being confirmed dead.

Kanon's deaths/corpses are suspicious in all episodes. In episode 3 maybe not. But i like the theorie that he's working behind the scenes against the culprit more than that he is actually the culprit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:46:42 2009 No.2854976 >>2854938 I find myself focusing a bit more on the 1998 world after Ep.4.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:49:42 2009 No.2854984 File: 556 KB, 950x750, jessica marisa.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2854888

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:55:42 2009 No.2855003 >BT reported 'players might think small bombs are the answer since that Tea Party is extremely passionate.' I lol'd.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:56:42 2009 No.2855004 >>2854984 Thats Kannon and not Master Spark.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 05:59:42 2009 No.2855015

>>2854971

I've always taken the red text to be unable to apply in present tense in accordance to the game board. In episode 2, Kanon was killed in Jessica's room, and it was stated before Kanon's supposed reanimated corpse popped up later.

In episode 3, Kanon is dead right off the bat, and confirmed in red before any more murders take place.

In episode 4, he's the ninth victim, but his corpse isn't found, so that's relatively suspicious.

But yes, I completely agree with you, at the time, I thought I was pretty clever for using the whole 'Nanjo's pretending Kinzo's dead, why wouldn't he pretend Kanon's dead as well' approach to produce a possible killer after Lambda shot down a whole bunch in Episode 4's ????. Still, I'm leaning that Kanon's either a bystander or trying to prevent the murders, and that Genji + Culprit X are the main culprits. Mainly because for Natsuhi and Genji/Nanjo/Kumasawa, it's either Culprit X or Kanon (or Shannon, as was discussed relatively earlier, but Shannon's a lot harder to make feasible), there is no other possible killer.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 06:01:42 2009 No.2855019

>>2855015

>I've always taken the red text to be unable to apply in present tense in accordance to the game board.

Correction, I mean that it has to apply in the present tense in accordance to the game board, as many red truths would lose all validity or relevance if Beatrice could ignore tense and situation when referring to the game board, destroying most starting points for theory.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 06:18:42 2009 No.2855079

What people need to pay attention to are "real" facts and not the motives, since I'm guessing none of you saw through ryukishis previous twisted web of reasoning paying attention to things like Battler's sin or Beatrice's identities won't solve anything.
From what is possible we can infer that the servants as well as Maria are complacent in the first twilight and from the endings of 1 and 3 that another person exist on the island, one who isn't listed by Evatrice and carries out the final shootings.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 06:33:42 2009 No.2855123 >>2855004 I'd say that Master Spark makes a pretty good cannon though.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 06:45:42 2009 No.2855168

Kanon always dies the same way when they find his body, right?
Could he be possible that he is the same as Kinzo, meaning that his death is a constant, he could have died just before the game.
The fact that his body disappear at time could just be that the real culprit didn't find any use for his body or couldn't move him where he/she wanted.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 06:48:42 2009 No.2855178

Really thanks for the interview translations, bro.

It seems to at least confirm some my (and other people's) suspicions:

1) What is Beatrice's aim; her behaviour seems wholely to encourage Battler to solve this thing. Why does she supposely gamble on him being a descendant of Kinzo? Beatrice/Bern/Lambda all said it's a certain loss for Beatrice for the end game. Why is it necessary for a family member to kill her? This rules out the intention to allow for any of the servants to survive.

2) Significance of 18 people: Other than Magical chef/old granny/Shannon/Kanon, everyone else is a close associate (two "friends" of Kinzo and the whole extended family down to grandson). It occurs only when Battler comes back for the conference, and likely as the text said, the wheel of action got triggered. If this certain number is the sole requirement (+ extended family), is this the minimum number, since majority of the time revolves this number which then underpins other irreducible reasons? All we know so far suggests this is indeed so (18, with kinzo added in). Why did this did not occur 6 years ago? Sins of the past, bad enough to root out the whole family.

As for candidate of Beatrice, does it really have to be a girl? As silly as it sounds, it will expand the scope massively. I am not suggesting the young Beato we got confirmed with red text, but the one(s) who commits the murder under the pretense of the former.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 08:06:42 2009 No.2855475

>>2855168
In red "nobody would mistake Kanon as another person" and "Kanon's name can not be inherited". Yet, if he is from the start and another person, namely Shannon played him all along there is nothing to mistake, nor to inherit to begin with, right? Ihihi

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 08:15:42 2009 No.2855503 >>2855475 I can't write a single line without typos. Gogdamnit

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 08:30:42 2009 No.2855556 >>2855475 Just a thought on this: we know Shannon/Kanon are exceptional in this area - they got 2 names. Though it seems romantic fluffy device to says those are furniture names, and Sayo/??? are normal human names. A play on the names?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 08:35:42 2009 No.2855571 Was there a confirmation in red that Kanon and Shannon are two of the 17 people on the island. They are infact furniture and not human.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 09:15:42 2009 No.2855694 >>2855571 >#6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! This is best I can find.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 09:17:42 2009 No.2855698 What was battler on about then he said the number of master keys changed, there has always been 5 from what I can tell.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 09:41:42 2009 No.2855758
File: 75 KB, 535x385, 1243421517016.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Kanon = Shannon
Asumu Ushiromiya = Kasumi Sumadera

Around 1968:
-Kyrie goes 'fuck you' to the Sumadera family and has a relationship with Rudolf instead of the guy who should've been her husband.
-Asumu/Kasumi is forced to marry that guy and become the next Sumadera successor.
-Asumu/Kasumi seduces Rudolf, while Kyrie also has a relationship with him. Both become pregnant. Kasumi miscarries, but manages to make it look like Kyrie miscarries and steals Kyrie's son Battler.
-Asumu marries Rudolf because they have a kid, and expects to be freed from her obligations.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 09:42:42 2009 No.2855759

Around 1980:
-Asumu/Kasumi and Kyrie are called by the Sumadera family after the family finds out about Kasumi's tricks. Asumu is forced to break off her marriage with Rudolf, with Kyrie taking her (rightful) place. Kyrie and Rudolf tell Battler his 'mother' has passed away.
-Battler runs away from home, deciding his mother is dead, and hating his father. Kasumi is once again forced to marry some idiot and become the head of the Sumadera family. Kasumi rages at both the loss of her family (which has now completely split up) and her return to her original position.

1986:
-Final Ushiromiya family conference. Not only has Kyrie taken everything from Kasumi, she's also going to inherit (part of) the Ushiromiya fortune. Even Battler has returned, accepting Kyrie as Rudolf's wife.
-Kasumi enters the island as the 17th person, and starts the sequence of murders known as the Rokkenjima Suspicion.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 09:42:42 2009 No.2855764
File: 113 KB, 484x600, 1242622679757.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Rudolf dies at the first twilight 3 out of 4 times; the only time he survives (ep4), Kasumi didn't execute the first twilight herself.
She leaves Battler alive for as long as possible before taking her revenge at him, and even gives him a chance to redeem himself (if he solves the riddle, she'll let him go with the Ushiromiya fortune).
Naturally, stuff goes wrong, and Kasumi doesn't remain the only murderer. However, Battler's denial of his 'mother' (his sin, which completely destroyed any chances for Kasumi to get her old life back again) starts the Rokkenjima supicion.

Kasumi Sumadera aka Asumu Ushiromiya is Beatrice.

>>	Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 09:46:42 2009 No.2855772 File: 21 KB, 306x253, idunnolol.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2855764 Er, my mistake, he doesn't survive ep4. Forget that part.

>>	None !SoAoGU5XjA Sun Jun 28 09:47:42 2009 No.2855773 >>2855764 ... what is this I don't even.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 09:58:42 2009 No.2855804 wow thats a great theory anon

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 09:58:42 2009 No.2855805 Would be funny if Kyrie was actually the evil one and Kasumi just a victim of her sister's actions. It's probably gonna end up this way anyway.

>>	Karesh !kw3EPy0aUY Sun Jun 28 10:00:42 2009 No.2855812 I'm thinking of siding with the pro-magic side just so I don't have to suspect the cast members I like.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:03:42 2009 No.2855821 >>2855571 What I meant was since they are furnitures, it is actually 17people+2furnitures on the island. Thus we will have 2 unaccounted for people on the island. One might be real life beato or maybe 2nd Battler.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:06:42 2009 No.2855828 >>2855821 No way, Eva-Beatrice said only humans are on the gameboard. This makes Shannon and Kanon humans.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:08:42 2009 No.2855834 >>2855828 Furniture doesn't count as part of the Game board. Just like you don't need to proclaim that your statement excludes chairs, desks, and Refrigerators

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:11:42 2009 No.2855843

>>2855758
>>Kyrie's son Battler.

Yes, that much can be inferred, as by examination with red text of his qualification as Beato's opponent.

The rest seems fair speculation, other than she being the 17th person... That will require another person, other than Kinzo, to be also out from start. Kanon and Shannon has been checked with red text to be separate entities (ep 3) and lack of name heredity.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:17:42 2009 No.2855863

>>2855843
>>That will require another person, other than Kinzo, to be also out from start. Kanon and Shannon has been checked with red text to be separate entities (ep 3) and lack of name heredity.
Still works if they are the same person from the beginning.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 10:25:42 2009 No.2855895

>>2855843
>>>/rs/At_10:11_somebody_posted_suggesting_Kanon_and_Shannon_being_mentioned_seperately_mea
ns_they_are_seperate.
>>>/rs/An_anon_responded_to_2855758
They both refer to the same fact, but that does not change the fact that it is true. I can both mention them seperately with the red text, even though they're the same thing. 'Kanon is dead' and 'Shannon is dead' mean the same thing, even if mentioned seperately.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 10:35:42 2009 No.2855924 File: 68 KB, 657x514, redtext.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 10:44:42 2009 No.2855953 >>2855924 Define 'all alone'. When I walk up to someone saying he's all alone and has no chance to survive make his time, I mean there's nobody out there to help him. Beatrice can say this if she means it like that.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:05:42 2009 No.2856009

>>2855843
Just because they were referred to as separate doesn't mean they really are. If someone has two personas and they die, it's easy to say that both personas have died, and it would be true.

On another note, didn't Ange or the Captain mention that the typhoon wasn't really all that bad, and it could have been easy for the captain to make it to Rokkenjima if they wanted to? The only time we have guaranteed that there was nobody that could have sneaked onto the island was in Episode 4, but it only applies to Battler's death on that game board.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:13:42 2009 No.2856034 File: 73 KB, 640x504, furniture2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2855821 >>2855828 >>2855834 See pic, furnitures do count in number of deaths, even allowing Kanon=Shannon.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:17:42 2009 No.2856052

>>2856009
>didn't Ange or the Captain mention that the typhoon wasn't really all that bad, and it could have been easy for the captain to make it to Rokkenjima if they wanted to?

Not exactly. The captain said he regretted not trying for it, and Mammon went on to imply he was a coward for not going out just because of 'a little wind and rain'.

But in all seriousness, no matter HOW bad the storm was, it would still be possible for a boat to land, provided the captain was both highly skilled and totally insane, with no regard for his own life.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:18:42 2009 No.2856055 >>2856052 Land? Maybe. Secure to the dock and capable of transporting people back? Less maybe.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:20:42 2009 No.2856065 >>2855863 >>2855895 >>2856009 Fair point, I've mistaken the blue text for red on that one. Retracting my point and Kanon=Shannon is still on table. Cheers

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:24:42 2009 No.2856078 >>2856055 Well, there is the hidden dock near Kuwadorian. We might need more details about it, but it could very well be a relatively safe mooring and allow for a group of people to disembark and reembark after a short swim.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:28:42 2009 No.2856091

On the topic of 1998, everyone seems to be overlooking something rather important- the events of 1998 only take place after Episode 3, in which there is a single survivor, Eva. After Eva dies, Ange becomes the sole successor to the Ushiromiya fortune, and is targeted by the Sumaderas who want to kill her and have the money be passed along to them.

Thing is, in every other game board, noone comes back from Rokkenjima. Ange inherits the fortune IMMEDIATELY, and she's already in the hands of her grandparents on Kyrie's side of the family. Meaning that regardless of the game board, the Sumaderas get control of Kinzo's fortune in EVERY game.

I don't think this is a coincidence. While I don't know to what degree they are complicit in the murders, the Sumaderas are the only party to stand to profit. And think about all those cases full of money again- the only people in this story with the resources to pull something like that off are Kinzo and the Sumadera family. They've got a 'stake' in this (haha) although it's hard to say just how much of one.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:34:42 2009 No.2856113

>>2856091
Yeah, I mentioned my theory that it's all a plot by the Sumadera family somewhere in this thread

They're using the epitaph as a cover for their murder. They could very easily just walk in and kill everyone, but if they follow the epitaph, the authorities would have thought that this was all a crazy murder-suicide for an insane ritual and call it case closed.

Gohda is their inside man. He uses his Master Key to get to the location where he can cut the telephone lines heading to the island, which is the signal for the Sumadera's agents to make their move. He's the most suspicious for this because he had no family for Ange to contact in 1998 and he's a new addition to the servants.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:35:42 2009 No.2856123

>>2856052
>>2856055

Might be a silly idea, but how about killing from the dock? Like some sniping. Ep 4 does mention a red beam from Beatrice's hand, so may be we can take that metaphorically. Also Beatrice's last few lines does ask Battler goes to find the location, rather than other way around. While sniping on a shaking ship near docking (for stability) does sound rediculous, it's no match for the small bombs.

>>2856091
I personally thought as an assult to get back some face/honour, as Ushiromiya's did look like they just swiped their well-bred successor with years of effort and even gotten pregnant, miscarried and suffer years of being 2nd to Asumu.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 11:41:42 2009 No.2856151 >>2856123 Rokkenjima is a wooded 10km long island. There are some places where people are killed that are absolutely impossible to hit from the shore. Though it would explain all the headshots in Episode 4.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:02:42 2009 No.2856226

Let's assume it is an op as said by >>2856113, with the magical chef being the insider, then we can confirm the following:

They do not know where the Gold is, as signified by the only successful survival of Eva hiding in the hidden tunnel to kuwa-whatever mansion. They might know about the mansion, but not necessary the hidden tunnel. Otherwise they could've an op to ready the gold removal as soon as weather gets better. Plus the gold is a legend that no one (outsiders) knows if it really exists.

2) It's not 1 man job (Gohda dies in all), and to maintain the restriction of the magical number, they somehow managed to move corpses in and out of the island (like onto a boat, so technically it doesn't count as on the island). Also with the rain/wind from the weather, tracks naturally gets lost. As for police investigations post event, the Sumadera are well-linked with them to cover any significant findings.

>>2856151
Indeed, the marksmanship in ep 4 is eerie.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Sun Jun 28 12:17:42 2009 No.2856285

Also, something that's quite obvious, but should be mentioned for those who don't immediately get it: The phone calls in ep4 are fake. Just because you hear from Battler's perspective over the phone that Kyrie is being killed with golden strings in a closed room, does not necessarily mean that Kyrie is being killed that way.
Pick up a phone, dial Battler, pretend you're Kyrie and you're being killed, and you've got a nice red herring. Same goes for other ep4 phone calls.

>>2856226
Indeed, that might be one of the reasons for the epitaph riddle.

Also, potential final ep4 riddle solution: If there was an inside man (Gohda), he might simply have set up traps all over the island. It's an easy (although cheap) way to explain lots of murders.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:23:42 2009 No.2856315

Also, Piece Beatrice is a Sumadera agent. Hence why she opts to dress in her schoolgirl uniform rather than the bulky getup the real Beatrice wears.

This can also help explain Battler's sin that she, a person with connections to the Sumadera family, would know about. Battler was born to Kyrie, a Sumadera, but he became an Ushiromiya. This was, of course, the Sumadera's plan all along, as they would be able to have a direct connection to the inheritance and thus have a stake in it. 6 years ago, he abandons his connection to the Ushiromiyas and screws up their chances to get the fortune originally, forcing them to come up with a new plan. Therefore, his sin is scorning the Ushiromiya family and indirectly failing his purpose to the Sumadera family.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:24:42 2009 No.2856323 File: 9 KB, 200x200, 1224084984633.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fascinating.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:27:42 2009 No.2856346 >>2856315 But he was raised as Asumu's son.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:31:42 2009 No.2856361 >>2856346 The Sumadera family were investors in the invention of DNA testing. All part of their plan.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 12:32:42 2009 No.2856368

>>2856346
But Asumu isn't his real mother. Kyrie is. She seduced Rudolf, had his child, and replaced Asumu's with hers. Then the family could approach Battler once he's secured the fortune and go "Oh hey, guess what we found out. There was a little bit of a mixup at the hospital when you were born..."

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 28 14:43:42 2009 No.2857205 >>2856346 Your point being..?

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 15:28:42 2009 No.2857436

>>2857205

My point being why the hell would the Sumaderas even bother switching the children if Battler was Kyrie's son anyway? Unless you want to argue that as a bastard, he wouldn't have been accepted as an Ushiromiya unless they concealed the truth from him until he came of age.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 16:05:42 2009 No.2857560

>>2857436

Maybe it's to get Kyrie build up pent-up pressure (see the creative match vs Envy) and manipulate her somewhat for the plan.

I think all of us noticed how outstanding Kyire is in putting forward ideas and spotting things, consistently throughout episodes.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 17:37:42 2009 No.2857985

>>2856315
A few things here- for one, Beatrice said Battler should be able to remember his sin based upon the fact that he is on Rokkenjima. Two, piece-Beato says to meta-Beato that she wants to 'leave the game board'. Which, given the way Battler used it at the very end among other things, seems to be a polite euphemism for 'die'. I think piece-Beato is among the dead when Battler starts his investigation, but she killed herself in such a way that he wasn't able to determine it was a suicide.

And three, if Battler's sin had something with the Sumadera's plot (i.e. he left the Ushiromiyas, wrecking their plans), why does Beatrice take it so personally? This seems like something deeper than just a borked plan.

Now, it is possible that piece-Beato got onto the island along with the Sumadera's goons, but I think she had her own agenda, rather than her just coming there to help the Sumadera family seize Kinzo's assets.

Anonymous Sun Jun 28 20:07:42 2009 No.2858785

>>2856091

>Thing is, in every other game board, noone comes back from Rokkenjima. Ange inherits the fortune IMMEDIATELY, and she's already in the hands of her grandparents on Kyrie's side of the family.

While I'm not sure whether it counts towards the theory of Sumadera's involvement in the killings or Kyrie herself being involved, Ange was originally supposed to be at the conference. I can't remember exactly when she dropped out but I think it was the day of the conference.

But Ange was sent one of the safety deposit letters, posted sometime before everyone left for the conference, therefore someone had to know she would not be there. It would make sense for Kyrie to leave her daughter behind if she knows what's to come, and the Sumaderas probably wouldn't want her there if they were involved either since it'd put their instant inheritance at risk.

Katsu-kun !!F17Uym/1MLN Mon Jun 29 02:20:42 2009 No.2860423

>>2858785
>`Myself as I was 12 years ago calls out frantically, urging them not to go to the family conference.`@
Perhaps she knew (was told) people were going to die at the conference and faked sickness to avoid being killed?

>`Because Ushiromiya Rudolf's daughter, Ange, had been sick and had stayed with her mother's family, she had not participated.`\
Also worth noting, she was with the Sumaderas that day. Suspicious.

Ah, found the quote I was looking for:
>`"You were sick in bed starting October 3, 1986.`@` And Beato's game board is cut off starting October 4.`@` ......You are not given a chance to avoid getting sick.`@` ...In other words, you are fundamentally an existence which certainly cannot rise to the game board."`\
She dropped out a day before the conference.

Hiran Mon Jun 29 08:34:42 2009 No.2861672

The culrpit being Sumadera family with Amakusa as the killer theory is pretty solid, however, I think it's pretty obvious that Beatrice is different every game. In the first episode, she seems to be elegant in her letters, patiently waiting for them to solve the epitath before the timeout. In the second episode, while the first letter is identical to the first episode's one, the next ones contain more temper and taunts - as if the original "Beatrice" had been killed and somebody took her role deeming it exploitable for their own interests.
In the third game, Beatrice isn't really trying to hurry them up anymore - you solve this or you die. Take it or leave it. This Beatrice seems to treat this as a game, an amusement. It should be noted that unless I am mistaken, -this- Beatrice never said anything about stopping the murders after solving the epitath - just merely granting her power to the winner. That's why even though Eva found the gold, the murders didn't stop.

Hiran Mon Jun 29 08:34:42 2009 No.2861673

Her killing Battler at the end could be her being desperate - Jessica didn't seem to be the culprit, nobody else seemed to be alive - if she's not the killer, then in her logic, Battler HAS to be the killer who took her son and husband. Desperate about revenge, she shot him. When child Ange was yelling at her to give her Onii-Chan and family back, can you imagine how much it had to hurt? As if she was the evil one?
But I have strayed off the topic, Beatrice of EP4 - she doesn't seem to care that much about the epitath. It wasn't solved before this conference? Game over. She obviously has some grudge towards Battler, even if it's not personal. That's the reason people die in EP4. There had to be a Rule X that triggered her to do the killings. A Rule that didn't show up in the previous episodes, much like there had to be a trigger for Shion to go batshit crazy and kill everybody in Higurashi.

Tell me what do you think. It's not even a theory, just some thinking I've done while enjoying my afternoon coffee.

>>	Hiran Mon Jun 29 08:35:42 2009 No.2861678 And sorry for the long spoiler tags, better safe than sorry.

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