/jp/ - Otaku Culture

File: 56 KB, 646x503, Fucking Faggot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:31:11 2009 No.2847119 [Reply] [Original]

What's their problem? I am getting tired of this faggot hearing him talk about furniture.

Why fucking wait until this Golden Land shit gets opened for them to become free? Couldn't they just frickin resign like their previous colleagues did?

Goddamn, this is the only case of stupid I'm seeing right now in Umineko.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:34:11 2009 No.2847140 They can't resign because they are... furniture.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:36:11 2009 No.2847148 >>2847140 That phrase is making me rage so bad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:40:11 2009 No.2847161 He realizes he's people later on, don't worry.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:41:11 2009 No.2847164 >>2847148 Kihihihihi... Do you not understand? Furniture are not human. They are objects created only to serve their master.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:42:11 2009 No.2847167 >>2847119 How is it stupid? The furniture knows its place.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:44:11 2009 No.2847173 Kanon and Shannon should just drop dead. Oh wait!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:45:11 2009 No.2847180 >>2847148 Well I'm kind of being serious, but I don't want to spoil anything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:48:11 2009 No.2847204 Yeah I didn't like Kanon either. He's a dickhead. Don't know what Jessica sees in him, probably just a case of him being the only guy she knows.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:50:11 2009 No.2847207 >>2847204 Shannon sucks too.

CurryButt !CIELBE/jzM Sat Jun 27 00:50:11 2009 No.2847211

.........furniture.

If you were raised - practically from the moment you can remember and onward, as something less than human, it'd be pretty easy to believe it to be a fact.

"just quit" woudlnt be an option, as in your head you'd feel as gay as kanon does. 'hurr im ....................................................................................................
...........................................................furniture so i cant quit because i have no right to such a thing.' etc.

Though he annoys me too. ಠ_ಠ

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:52:11 2009 No.2847222 >>2847207 Nah I like Shannon because she's not an idiot like Kanon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:53:11 2009 No.2847225 >>2847204 >>2847207 True. The only good servant is Genji.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:55:11 2009 No.2847233 What's wrong with you people. Kanon is badass. He looks death in the eye and squints.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:58:11 2009 No.2847241 >>2847233 That never really happened. Only good servant that isn't part of the paranormal is Genji. Magical Gohda Chef is in a whole other realm.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 00:59:11 2009 No.2847245 >>2847241 We at least know that he chased after the culprit in episode one, unless you think Kumasawa made up the whole story.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:13:11 2009 No.2847321 i like kanon, he is brave when he wants and is afraid of love just like me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:25:11 2009 No.2847390 None of this furniture business is really happening.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:30:11 2009 No.2847421 Fucking furnitures

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:31:11 2009 No.2847427

>>2847390
Though it wasn't from Battler's perspective, we can probably assume that anything which happens before October 4th takes place in each episode, which means that his protest to Jessica about being furniture after the school incident took place, at least.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:37:11 2009 No.2847451 File: 743 KB, 2747x3400, 1192757930682.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair, This Chair.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:46:11 2009 No.2847495

>>2847245

You realize that unless there is a culprit X, it's largely impossible that anyone but Kanon killed Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa, and Natsuhi, right? Hell, it's very, very improbable to think he's even unrelated to Eva/Hideyoshi's death.

Unless you can think of something better? Come on, tell me how it wasn't magic.

>>2847427

I think we can kind of say that Shannon and Kanon didn't have discussions/tea parties with a magical ghost witch.

>>	WASSHOI !WsoGLPGdyA Sat Jun 27 01:54:11 2009 No.2847521 File: 167 KB, 640x480, 1243383307076.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:57:11 2009 No.2847533 >>2847204 >Don't know what Jessica sees in him bishonen

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 01:58:11 2009 No.2847536

>>2847495
I find that the evidence for or against a culprit X theory is too inconclusive at the moment, but I do believe that Kanon was an accessory to the murders in at least episodes 1 and 4. That said, I don't think he's the mastermind or the staker either time.

The only inconsistency I find with his involvement in episode 1 is that Natsuhi and Krauss are pretty clearly the ones burning Kinzo's corpse (when both of them died in episode 2, it didn't end up in the furnace), so unless they're acting independently, I can't see Kanon cooperating with them, in consideration of his stated dislike of both. That could be a fantasy scene though.

>I think we can kind of say that Shannon and Kanon didn't have discussions/tea parties with a magical ghost witch.

About this; I chose to interpret those scenes metaphorically. If we think of Beatrice as the mental personification of their repressed passions (love in this case), then all of those instances where we see them talking to the witch are really simply their internal struggles.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:09:11 2009 No.2847559

>>2847536

Well, I'm back and forth on those scenes. While that makes sense, I can't rightfully set up Kanon as a culprit/accomplice if I assume he's so conflicted about his love for Jessica.

I can overcome that with 'Oh well, we'll be reunited in the golden land anyways, like I can with Shannon, but I don't like that approach, it assumes too heavily that the Fukuin House is a deranged cultist camp for Kinzo slaves, and we've really heard nothing of the sort.

Hm, Kinzo's body not ending up in the furnace is a good point, but episode 3 is a roadblock. Could Natsuhi/Krauss set up the linked closed room murders? It's pretty obvious whoever did left that letter, and Eva seems the most suspicious of that.

Episode 3 just does not have enough detail about the events of the 1st Twilight, it probably wasn't all the parents, as Krauss wouldn't stand for that letter, as well as the fact that holing up in the Guest House out of fear of the murderer is not something they would do to prove to the children they're not murderers or whatever.

>>	WASSHOI !WsoGLPGdyA Sat Jun 27 02:09:11 2009 No.2847560 >>2847204 >Don't know what Jessica sees in him, probably just a case of him being the only guy she knows. He has LAZER EYES.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:10:11 2009 No.2847563 >>2847495 Nice devil's proof there, bro.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:16:11 2009 No.2847576

>>2847563

Oh? What kind of Devil's Proof did I use? Think about the currently living people, their alibis, and the red text.

The three in the parlor didn't kill themselves or each other. The 4 in Kinzo's study were proven innocent by Battler's supervision. Maria is certainly not the killer.

Who does that leave? It leaves Culprit X. But... We've proven long ago that Kanon is not necessarily dead. We know Nanjo knows and is lying about Kinzo's health, so we can reasonably assume he might help the culprit, in this case being Kanon. Kanon's death is another in which everyone has alibis except Kumasawa, who probably couldn't manage it anyways. But it's never said Kanon is dead, he's the only person staked who didn't have the stake IN him. With a Nanjo/Genji assist, it would be pretty easy for him to fake his own death and move freely.

I don't necessarily like it, but it's Kanon, Culprit X, or the witch. There is no one else that fits.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:20:11 2009 No.2847594

>>2847559
>While that makes sense, I can't rightfully set up Kanon as a culprit/accomplice if I assume he's so conflicted about his love for Jessica.

About this. If we take the scenes before the start of Ep.2 to be true, then it's fairly easy to explain how he could be an accomplice. The reason he hesitates to begin a relationship with Jessica is because he thinks it has a high chance of ending in disaster for whatever reason; it's cowardice but it's cowardice with the stated intention of protecting her. Now suppose someone the mastermind told Kanon that she would be spared if he cooperated? She's survived to the end in two episodes and I don't think it's purely by chance. (This approach has some problems, but it's an interesting consideration).

Could Natsuhi/Krauss set up the linked closed room murders? It's pretty obvious whoever did left that letter, and Eva seems the most suspicious of that.

Do we know for certain that one person masterminded it to be a closed room murder? It might sound like a stretch, but it could have been that two parties were acting independently and it ended up looking like a chain of six closed rooms.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:24:11 2009 No.2847604 just remember to piss in fire

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:25:11 2009 No.2847612

>>2847594

The letters found next to their corpses are pretty much completely conclusive of a closed room chain.

The only doubt to that is that ALL of the parents were acting together. Still, the magic circles is a serious, serious question. If we assume that not all of the parents were acting together, then I believe it's reasonable to assume a(the) servant(s) was aiding them, even to the point of suicide. I pretty much always nominate Genji for this role, what with being a robot and all. And while it's technically not 'suicide', aiding in setting up a closed room chain and letting someone kill him is pretty much there.

Still, the most suspicious room and the weakest link to all of them is the boiler room, with its two exits. It's questionable as to whether the siblings would know the nature of the exit to the courtyard, if it had a lock at all, did they even check it? It was never even mentioned if they checked both doors. If you assume that's a weak link to the chain, then it becomes easy to set up, though the magic circles still pose a serious problem.

Who's capable of writing the magic circles? I do believe it's the same person each time, and in that scenario, one of the servants, again, probably Genji.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:25:11 2009 No.2847607 >>2847576 Kanon is not dead != No one else is alive

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:26:11 2009 No.2847614

>>2847576
Question. Battler didn't actually see Shannon's face when she was in the shed, did he? Didn't Hideyoshi and Kanon confirm her status to him?

And as far as I recall, while the red stated that the identity of the unidentified corpses was guaranteed, it never said that everyone in the shed was dead.

Which means if my memory hasn't failed me, Shannon has a possibility of being a culprit too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:26:11 2009 No.2847615 File: 5 KB, 112x76, ganon3.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] hes already at the golden land

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:28:11 2009 No.2847624

>>2847607

Let's list them then, shall we?

Eva/Hideyoshi: ># Both were killed by another person!
Rudolf/Kyrie/Krauss/Rosa/Gohda/Shannon: ># Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
># There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!

In order to argue one of the 'identified corpses' is alive, you've got to assume pretty much everyone at the scene is lying.

And... Who else is there? Are you claiming the witch did it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:31:11 2009 No.2847639 >>2847612 Maria could be the ones writing the magic circles given that she was able to copy them perfectly from memory in episode 1 and when she died in episode 3, they stopped appearing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:34:11 2009 No.2847653 File: 110 KB, 1600x891, Kannon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The true culprit is Kanon from low-orbit

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:35:11 2009 No.2847660

>>2847639

But, what is this assuming? That Maria is also an accomplice? To everything? I think Maria is simply the interpreter of the message, the drawer knows Maria can interpret the message to the others and uses her to deliver messages, either via magic circle or fun letters. Assuming you think 'Beatrice' and the drawer are even the same person.

The magic circles also stop once all of the servants are dead. Usually there's a magic circle and a closed room for the second twilight, breakable only by a servant. The style seriously changes for episode 3. And 4, I suppose, but I don't think the culprit in 4 is related to the servants, rather, got the idea from the servants and ran with it, executing it all willy nilly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:44:11 2009 No.2847701 >>2847660 >>2847639 The writter may also stop writing them, since he knows the only one able to interpret them is dead.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:48:11 2009 No.2847728

>>2847614 here.

I just re-read the the first twilight of episode 1 and I've confirmed that Hideyoshi and Kanon are the only ones who actually see Shannon's face since she was placed in a blind spot from which everyone else couldn't see. Furthermore, when Genji proposes to cover everyone's face, Eva stops him. Seems odd.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:50:11 2009 No.2847744

>>2847701

Precisely, while it's my favorite theory that the servants (or really, only necessarily Genji) are facilitators, it's not like there's any proof that no one knows these magic circles. The magic circle of the sun, for instance. The only real relation to the epitaph it seems to have is 6 sacrifices. The function is seemingly just to draw attention to the 6 sacrifices part.

Now, considering Kinzo's dead, anyone with foreknowledge of this and Genji's approval could go rooting through his study (Natsuhi comes to mind), and find the magic circle of the sun, which states stuff about 6 sacrifices, and it would seem pretty damn convenient, if they drew the line between the sacrifices and Maria's understanding of them.

Still, episode 3 once again mixes things up by killing Maria early. If we assume she's the translator of the messages, then that would explain why she's always a late victim, even if she's not a knowing accomplice. To kill her off early seems... Unlike something that would randomly change.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:51:11 2009 No.2847746

>>2847639
>>2847701

Or the killer knows that Maria is dead, and so to pin the blame on Maria, the killer stops drawing them.

Remember, the entire point of the murder is to make it seem like a witch did it in order to take attention away from the actual killer. Thus, the killer is going to be doing "chessboard thinking" all the way through, trying to mislead us.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:55:11 2009 No.2847766

>>2847701
If the person writing the circles is simply trying to make the murders seem occult in nature, then whether the victims understand the meanings of the circles is inconsequential given that they're going to die anyway. Of course, this is assuming that the messages are aimed at obfuscating the theories of the the police or the outside world.

Flipping the chessboard, if we accept your rationale, then it means the circles are a message to the survivors. But what would the purpose of placing circles be, if not to make the murders seem occult? And if that's the purpose, we have the dilemma I presented before; if everyone will die anyway, then why does it matter what the victims think?

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 02:55:11 2009 No.2847767

>>2847728

Hm, well, I can't deny that one. While Natsuhi/Eva (can't remember which) made reference to them tracking muddy footprints over the crime scene, which would imply going inside and making it largely impossible they hadn't seen Shannon, it's never confirmed that they did.

And adding to that, Hideyoshi prevents George from seeing Shannon's corpse. We're meant to assume it was a polite, sympathetic action, but it could have a more sinister meaning. I've been kicking around the theory that Eva assisted in the episode 1's first twilight, just like Rosa probably assisted in episode 2's first twilight. After all, they fit the pattern of 'only sibling left standing after the 1st twilight' which holds true for every episode but 3.

So assume Eva/Hideyoshi assists Kanon/Genji/Shannon in setting up the first twilight, then are taken out to assure their silence. (After all, Eva hints pretty strongly that the servants are the culprits, much like Rosa with her wolves and sheep puzzle, and Eva might have seriously considered Natsuhi as an accomplice to them)

It's not too implausible at all.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 03:01:11 2009 No.2847794

>>2847766

To link them to the epitaph. Like I said, the first magic circle is related to 6 sacrifices, and a clever person would link that to the epitaph, mentioned in the letter 'Beatrice' sent.

Now, the later magic circles... Yes, those seem to be different. You can stretch logic way too far and think the killer was again trying to point out the epitaph with the second circle, since locks and unlocking have to do with keys, but that's way, way too farfetched to be a clear message that anyone would get if they didn't already get the message from the first circle that 'hey, this is the epitaph, solve the riddle'.

The killer could be trying to pin blame on Kinzo, the witch, anything. Maria is mostly beyond blame in the eyes of the family, due to solid alibis and being nine, so occult wise, that leaves Kinzo, and under Kinzo are the servants. I don't believe it's necessarily to obfuscate the crimes, but merely to point out as clearly (without being direct) as possible that the epitaph was the point of the killings.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 03:04:11 2009 No.2847817

>>2847794
But if the point is to link the crimes to the epitaph, for what reason would the culprit stop writing them if Maria dies? Linking the murders to the epitaph could serve to misdirect the police or people investigating the murders later, but if everyone on the island except the culprit will be killed, then does the killer gain anything by making them believe the epitaph is related to the murders?

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 03:10:11 2009 No.2847854

>>2847817

Well, I've been running on a probably wrong theory that the servants are legitimately trying to A. remove the siblings, and B. have the riddle be solved by someone.

Battler/others have constantly made the point that the killers could be wanting them to solve the epitaph and then swoop in and take the gold, and that could be possible. The wrong take I've been taking is that the servants (maybe only Genji) have been carrying out Kinzo's will, which may have been 'trick one sibling into assisting in killing the other three, try to get that sibling to prove his/her worth by solving the riddle, and slowly kill everyone'.

In any case, for the greed theory, reason A. and reason B. seemingly contradict each other. The siblings are the most likely to solve the riddle, and yet they are mostly removed at the beginning of each game. Is it to highly encourage the remaining one to solve the puzzle? Is it because they're dangerous to the plan? Rudolf does suspect he's going to be killed, he knows something, it could possibly be about the servants.

In any case, it's filled with holes, and mostly laughable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 04:53:11 2009 No.2848453 File: 281 KB, 646x506, foreshadow.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Just reread first twilight of episode 3. lol foreshadowing.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:05:11 2009 No.2848493

>>2848453
Also, the possibility that none of the servants were in on it definitely exists. Beatrice refuses to repeat that it wasn't an accident, but even Battler believes she was going to. Ronove stopped her because, after that, the only possibility left is that the killer escaped one of the rooms. If each room went under the scrutiny of the chapel in episode 2, that exit would be easily found.

The culprit could have set up Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, and Shannon's rooms in any order using Kanon's master key. The boiler room was locked some time before Kanon was locked in the chapel, but Kinzo's corpse could have been dragged in there at any time. After the chapel was locked, the key was placed in the boiler room using the back door, and the culprit escaped.

The only question is who the culprit was, since all the adults apparently have alibis. I think making everyone focus on the epitaph was to distract them from figuring that out, since they'd certainly all remember if someone left during the conference.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:09:11 2009 No.2848502 File: 212 KB, 640x480, 1242137769966.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:12:11 2009 No.2848512 >>2848502 eeeep!

>>	Chomp !HH2/bfBUgA Sat Jun 27 05:12:11 2009 No.2848514 >>2848502 No, Shannon, no!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:17:11 2009 No.2848526 >>2848502 Preview of episode 5 I suppose?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:22:11 2009 No.2848547 >>2848502 Shopped.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:24:11 2009 No.2848556

>>2848526

Yes. Exactly. Photoshop does not exist, just like witches.

>>2848493

Yes, that'd probably be how it was set up. I can set up Eva and Hideyoshi as the culprit, taking a cue from Genji that the gold exists and Kinzo being dead and setting all that up to put up an easy way for her to get the succession and the gold. The letter fits her style, after all.

But, all victims were killed inside their respective rooms. The closed rooms could be made in any which order using Kanon's master key as you stated, but they were killed in those rooms. How were they lured there? It's a bit of a stretch, and it annoys me.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 05:52:11 2009 No.2848660

>>2848556
Looking at how complicated the result is, I wouldn't be surprised if the method was even more complicated. Perhaps the first was just unlucky and got caught alone. After they didn't show up, the others split up to look for them, checking each room. One fell into an ambush while another found a locked door. Repeat until only Kanon remains. The final door is left open, and Kanon finds the key to the chapel in a place more obvious than the envelope. Most likely this is Shannon in the parlor. Kanon goes into a rage seeing Shannon dead and decides to follow the clue, but locks the door with his master key because he wants to protect Shannon's body. He runs out to the chapel and gets ambushed after entering, the culprit hiding outside waiting for him to unlock the door (or it was unlocked from some time before and the key was just a clue). The keys to all the rooms were stolen before hand, and placed randomly throughout, save the chapel key.

Anonymous Sat Jun 27 06:52:11 2009 No.2848861
File: 195 KB, 638x477, closed circle2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2848660
Assuming the culprit never laid hands on a master key, the order must as follows. Genji was first, followed by Gohda, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon. The Culprit leaves the keys behind as soon as he's done with them. In this way, no master keys are needed to break the circle as long as we accept the secret exit in the boiler room, which is never locked.

It's also no coincidence that the boiler room is linked to the chapel, because the chapel can't be opened with master keys and Kinzo is the only one without a master key. Any theory that doesn't recognize the secret exit will likely be fucked up by Kinzo's time of death.

The only real question is how they got Kanon all the way out to the chapel. I'll revise my original theory and say two keys were left in the parlor: the chapel key and the parlor key. If the parlor key were still missing, locking the parlor would be pointless. But the culprit wanted Kanon to lock the parlor to create this circle, so he gave him this extra insurance. Since he's already in the parlor, he follows the lead to the chapel, bringing both keys with him. He's killed in the chapel, and the parlor key is locked inside. Finally, the chapel key is placed in the boiler room.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 27 13:44:11 2009 No.2850361 >>2848453 You'll shit bricks when you find out what other things are foreshadowed, but you might not realize yet.

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