/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

The Ushiromiya siblings and their partners conspired to kill Kinzo and the servants when they had locked themselves in the dining room. The motive was to retrieve information about the location of the gold out of the victims. Combining this with the riddle under Beatrice's portrait, Eva and then Rosa discovered the secret store.

Due to her greed and desire to be the heir to the Ushiromiya name, Eva then killed Rosa and Maria to silence the two. Hideyoshi provided her with an alibi, so even if he didn't leave the room, Eva did. She then perpetrated the murders of the rest of the family with the exception of George, who was so heartbroken over Shannon's death he killed himself.

[Anonymous No.]

in b4 DUR DUR small bombs lol XD~

[Anonymous No.]

Wasn't it basically confirmed that there's an 18th person out there thanks to the whole red-battle between Beatrice and Evatrice?
And what about Nanjo?

[Anonymous No.]

small bombs

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816009

episodes are seperate kakera

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816031
>>>/rs/No_more_than_17_humans_exist_on_this_island!!
>>>/rs/That_excludes_any_18th_person.
>>>/rs/In_short,_this_18th_person_X_does_not_exist!!
>>>/rs/This_applies_to_all_games!!!

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816057
Wasn't that 18/19?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816031
>And what about Nanjo?

The process of elimination only leaves Jessica as the killer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816062
That was before Kinzo was proven to be dead.
>>2816064
>>>/rs/Ushiromiya_Jessica_has_not_committed_murder

[Anonymous No.]

OP is a faggot who can't accept the existence of witches.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816074
Only applies to 3.

[Anonymous No.]

Nanjo was killed by an unidentified person who died after commiting the murder OR is an unknown 17th person because one of the known 17 people doesn't really exist.

I think it was one of the known people who died soon after commiting the murder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816083
Could also explain the deaths in 2.

[Anonymous No.]

If you're going to make a Umineko theory then make sure you reread all the red text for it. It's easy to forget something.

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816093
Does not invalidate the most of the idea. The flaw is the death of Nanjo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816135
Well, if one flaw is allowed you can make a shitload of theories.

[Anonymous No.]

I actually think Eva is too easy to be behind the whole thing in episode 3. For instance I doubt she was the initial culprit of the first twilight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>>/rs/The_culprit_is_Rosa
>>>/rs/Rosa_is_Beatrice

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816183
Then forget the second paragraph.

Isn't questioning Kinzo and the servants a logical step in locating the gold? During all the discussion on Umineko, hardly anyone attempts to explain what the siblings were discussing in the dining room.

[Anonymous No.]

By "exist", do they mean somebody who's neither dead or legally dead?

If so, Asumu could be a murderer. But of course, that's just an insane theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816222
While what they discuss could very well be important to the story, it could just as easily be the exact same thing they were discussing earlier. Eating dinner and reading a weird letter doesn't change the fact that you NEED A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW

[Anonymous No.]

Man, it really tore me apart when I found out that Beatrice was just fucking around and she broke Battler's heart.

[Anonymous No.]

Motive can be applied to almost anyone. But we do have one clue- Beatrice said it in red: The crimes being committed are in some way related to Battler's 'sin' from 6 years ago. How you want to interpret that is up to you, but the fact that, even with apparantly different killers every game, the twilights are still carried out(more or less), is important.

There is someone on the island taking the name of 'Beatrice'. Leaving aside the question of who that is, they clearly have some sort of message they want to convey to Battler, some sin they want him to remember. Yet, at the same time, they want Battler to remember it himself, and won't clearly state what the issue here is. But they leave clues at the crime scenes: the magic circles, the stakes, maybe even the crime scenes themselves.

Think about the magic circles a bit, Maria is able to interpret them. And their meanings are more than just magic nonsense, they were selected for a reason. Go reread what Maria said about them back in episode 1. I think these are, as was suspected, messages for someone, but they are directed at Battler.

[Anonymous No.]

Whoever Beatrice is
1, She wrote the magic circles in Maria's diary
2, She met with Maria whenever she came to the island
3, Knows the location of the hidden gold
So she is either living on the island, being close to the island by having opportunity to travel there whenever she wishes, or visits the island at the same time as Maria does.
The magical circles can be drawn by her and Maria, the staking can be done by both of them as well, as long they find a corpses. Driving a stake in a hole wouldn't be hard even for a little girl. I think there is also a big hint in Ep2 that the staking and the killing are done by two different person, regarding Nanjo and Kumasawa. By the way, the wounds on the corpses by the guns can represent different murderers as well, if we look at the power of the guns of course. If I need to guess, there are 2 or 3 different parties trying accomplish their goals, and at least one of them wants Battler and/or everyone else to believe in witches.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816626
>Driving a stake in a hole wouldn't be hard even for a little girl.
It's a little misunderstandable.

[Anonymous No.]

I still don't understand how Gohda and Kumasawa in the tool shed was explained.
Anyone care to clear that up?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816929

Trap X

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816929
It wasn't properly explained I don't think.

[Anonymous No.]

Is this turning over into its own version of Kai now? I mean, they've obviously set it up so that Beatrice is a protagonist in future, what with the whole distorted face laughter of the two at the end of the ????? section.
While I'm interested in seeing just how Beatrice fits into a human explanation, I'm dieing to know just what the hell is Bern's deal. I mean, if she is the witch born as a result of Rika's fight over Hinamizawa, then that distorted face makes me WAY too uncomfortable.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm curious of one thing. In ep 2, Beatrice showed herself to herself. Thus she was recognized as a person. Even, when Kinzo was dead, Beato was there, making up for 18th person. Thus, red is bullshit, or we need definition of "person" in red itself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817195
Battle didn't see her, so her presence isn't confirmed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816536
Now go a little deeper. Battler's sin is, according to Beatrice, something related to Rokkenjima. And it isn't technically a sin on Battler's part, but rather a starting point, something that set the ball rolling and led to this 6 years later. We only know a little of what Battler was like 6 years ago,from Shannon's recollections, in which he was often saying frivilous things in english like 'I'll come back riding on a white horse', trying to sound cool.

So, was Battler's sin something he said, or did? If it is something he did, we don't have much to go on, but if he said something, even if it was trivial to him, it might have been the trigger. Six years ago, Battler and Jessica were 12. Maria was 3, George was 17ish, and Shannon was like 10. Ange wasn't born yet, and Kyrie hadn't married Rudolph. At 12, little Battler said would be given much stock by the adults. So he must have said something to one of the cousins, probably excluding Maria, or Shannon.

Was something Battler said 6 years ago in some way so significant to directly cause the tragedy? Not likely. But it might have affected someone's behavior in such a way that their conditions or treatment changed, which then snowballed...

The most likely subjects in that case would be Jessica, or Shannon

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817257
What is this I don't even

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817201
And what about part before banquet of which? He saw Beatrice then, if i recall correctly. But on the other hand he also saw Kinzo, who should be dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817441
That was in the metaworld.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817441

He was drunk.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817257
I can understand most of this except for this part.

>At 12, little Battler said would be given much stock by the adults.

Please elaborate on what you mean.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817565
Remember what George was saying about why adults don't take what kids say seriously? Children lack life experience, and are prone to confabulation. If Battler went up to Krauss or Eva and said something crazy to them they'd just shrug it off and forget about it. They wouldn't hatch some diabolical plan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817624
Ah, so it wouldn't be given much stock by the adults. Okay, thanks.

[insanezero !VUNofZD8jM No.]

Battler has seen at least fifteen people at once on the island. (The Ushiromiya family save Kinzo, Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Shannon during the first game) Thus, there must be a minimum of fifteen people on the island.

15 <= X <= 17

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817673
Something has been bugging me. In Episode 2, when the victims of the first twilight were found, weren't both Shannon and Kanon there? I know Kanon was since he went chasing after Jessica, but I'd swear Shannon came there with the cousins. When Jessica went charging in with Gohda and Kanon, I seem to have the impression they were the only ones in the mansion. Or were Shannon and Kumasawa somewhere inside? I can't seem to place them, but I'm not in a position to check right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817257
Another important thing to remember is that Beatrice also TOLD us what his sin was, point blank: not remembering. If he just remembered something he had forgotten, that would be complete atonement.

That's part of why (along with the "I don't care about your immediate family" hint) all this real Battler/fake Battler/Asumu conspiracy theories don't seem plausible to me. It was almost definitely something trivial, on the lines of Keiichi not giving Mion a doll.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2817916
Well, not remembering was a part of his sin. Whatever it is that he's not remembering though, and why his remembering is so important, is still unclear.

[Anonymous No.]

Every game ends with Battler remembering his sin, recognizing that it's his fault that everyone except a handful of people are dead, losing his sanity because of it and killing everyone else including himself. Except for ep3 where Eva shoots him before he can kill her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816074
>>2816083
What this means is that prior to the beginning of each game, she has not committed murder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2818059

You're cherry picking meaning, if you assume that tenses don't apply to Beatrice's statement in accordance to the events of piece-Battler's POV, then a decent bit of red text falls apart.

The only red text related to the first two episodes I've found fault with thus far is this:

>#[Those are] kept in the key box in the center of the servants' room.
>#[There are several keys to the servants' room, but] all of those are inside the key box.

The brackets represent text that was not red, and what she's referring to are the servants' room keys. But she left the subject of the sentence out of the red. Is she simply referring to something else and using word play to say something else is in the box, while the servants' room keys are actually in someone else's possession?

I'm still not 100% clear on my theories for episode 2, so I haven't really looked into it, as what's running through my head is that Nanjo and Kumasawa weren't even killed in the servants' room when they were said to. But that's not leading me too far, as Natsuhi's room is still a closed room, and that's the only murder it would free them up for, so they probably were killed there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2818144
The trickyness of the red text there might open up some new possibilities. Thing is that it doesn't create any new options to the puzzle around Natsuhi's room. Way I look at it, there are two real options. 1) They were attacked outside the room, locked themselves in and died. 2) One of the people in the room killed the others and then themself.

Rosa had all the master keys under her control, so unless she had a chance to do it herself, there should not have been any other way to lock Natsuhi's room except for her key that was locked inside. Rosa did a careful search, and I think it was also said in red that noone was hiding inside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819041
>Rosa had all the master keys under her control, so unless she had a chance to do it herself

She didn't. She was with Battler and Maria in the parlor the whole time in this span of time.

So it has to be one of those two options, or the good ole' accident/trap (which it will probably not be... as they had no good reason to go to Natsuhi's room in the first place so why would they set a trap in that room?)

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819065

Hm, well, I've had some time to discuss this with a friend (dancing around some facts, since he actually only just finished reading episode 2), and I think I'm ready to lay down some theory time!

The thought that they were attacked outside Natsuhi's room and went inside and locked it is... Silly, at best. Shannon was well inside the room, with a large hole in her head. Gohda was dead with a stake in his chest just inside the door, that sort of wound doesn't allow you to stumble around. That premise fits ONLY with George, and I really don't think those two were staked in the room, George was in the hallway, they went out, staked him, and he went in and locked the door. It's just not fitting with the arrangement of the corpses.

So, we must assume those inside the room killed each other. There is no way that they got paranoid and killed each other either, as the presence of the stakes, their positions of death, and where the stakes were placed are all ridiculous to think happenstance.

So... Let's get this out of the way... There is only one possibility of the room that allows Shannon, Gohda, and George to all be innocent. Genji was with them, and managed to stake Shannon in the head, Gohda in the chest, and George in the stomach, then leaves. George, with the least serious injury, manages to get up, lock the door behind him, and head over to Shannon, take the stake out of her head, and then die pitifully leaning against a wall.

It's reasonable enough to think George wouldn't be in the state of mind to realize that messing up Shannon's body is bad, and that locking the door makes the room extremely hard to think through. The problem here becomes why the room was so thrashed, but the mirror excuse and searching wouldn't be so ridiculous, though why Gohda would suggest that is a bit suspect, and how Genji would know is also suspect.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819221

It's possible they really did search for the mirror for some reason. Perhaps not under duress, though?

I dunno. It WAS out and shattered near Shannon's corpse.

And the theory also assumes 'Genji is not a murderer' does not carry over to Episode 2... so that's another weak point until we get confirmation on that.

But otherwise, great theory, I was thinking something similar myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819238

To be honest, I took 'Genji is not a murderer' to apply only to the killings of him, Nanjo, and Kumasawa in episode 1. I don't think Beatrice would narrow the suspects completely like that.

In any case... Episode 2 becomes the easiest to contemplate if you assume some pretty drastic motive. Genji, Kanon, Shannon, and Gohda are willing to die for this ceremony. You can actually cut out Gohda, Shannon, and Kanon, but that makes things harder and harder to contemplate. I'll go into the complications of cutting out Shannon or Gohda later, Natsuhi's room is only the beginning, and I don't think the theory about George creating the closed room is correct, just possible, stated to point out that the guilt of Shannon/Gohda is not GUARANTEED.

Anyways, let's start from the beginning. Rosa is complicit to the first twilight. I don't like the thought of working around the following red text.

># Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

I mean... Take it literally. It passed through no one's hands? That means even Maria didn't use it. And if you take 'passing through no one's hands' as just 'left her possession', then someone would've had to come to the guest house, wake Maria, take her to the chapel, have her lock the door, then take her back, and have her say NOTHING about it. I wouldn't trust a nine year old kid to keep my secret about that completely, nor would I trust that I wouldn't awake anyone in the room by going and getting Maria.

So, we can assume the key in Maria's bag could be a trick. Someone's already made the point that the chapel was never necessarily locked before the key was given to Maria, just that it couldn't be unlocked without the key. So say they were ushered (or dragged unconscious) into the chapel, killed, and then the door was closed. ... More next post...

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819297 cont.

So, we then go to the next day. The servants arrive, search the mansion, find the note, go to the chapel, and one of them tries the door. States it's locked. That means that one of the servants is a culprit, and if we assume they all are, then there's not even much need for that scene to happen. What's important is, Rosa is called, and confirms that the door is locked, then goes and gets the key. How does she even magically know the key is in the envelope? It's suspicious as hell.

So, Nanjo is called, the kids come along, the door is opened, and the story about it being locked is all concocted between Rosa and the servant(s). Now, George finds the letter on the table. This letter is the 'first witch's letter', and I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's the one that Rosa received, and probably read to the other siblings after the children had been chased out. The letter is resealed, left with the corpses, and written on. Another strike of suspicion against Rosa.

At this point, Kanon and Gohda are with Jessica, and Genji and Shannon are with 'Kinzo', 'taking his will'. Kanon is trusted by Jessica, and if he's willing to die, then we're good there, easily. He kills Jessica, kills himself, Gohda drags him out after leaving the keys inside, and locks the door, and drags him to location X, it hardly even matters where, he might never move from there again. (more on this later for if Gohda is innocent)

Rosa goes up to talk to Kinzo, there, she meets Shannon and Genji and comes back with them, and a gun. Before this point, she was pretty keen on letting the witch be the culprit, but after this point, it's nothing but 'servants servants servants'. She is WAY too sure, it's my theory that she knows the servants pulled the first twilight, but because she stood by the way side, she can't say that, so has to remain in good standing with the children and cast them out. Eventually this paranoia will get to her more and more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819297
Beatrice didn't state it, Lambda did, and Battler wasn't there at the time therefore he doesn't know it.

Also I'm almost convinced that there's a secret passage in the church to Kuwadorian.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819350 cont. again...

So, moving on to the servants' room murders... If all the servants save Kumasawa (and Kumasawa only because she has not much reason to care whether she's in on it or not) are accomplices, then the murder is easy. Kanon need not even be brought in, they just use him as a convenient story to explain that Nanjo/Kumasawa were killed, and that they disappeared, and that there's a closed room. The closed room is easily constructed with their master keys. More on this later for the possibility of Gohda/Shannon being innocent. Oh right, and Nanjo/Kumasawa aren't guaranteed dead, though that only comes into play for the Gohda/Shannon innocence theories, his assistance is moot for this argument.

So, at this point, all master keys are relinquished to Rosa's possession. George, Shannon, and Gohda proceed to Natsuhi's room. There is no guarantee they went to the chapel, nor any real reason to doubt that they did, so it's moot. They get to the room, lock the door, and search around, possibly for the mirror, or possibly for weapons to defend themselves if searching for the mirror was bullshit and they just wanted a defensible position.

... So, this is probably the most difficult room. Let's say Genji went with them, there's no reason to say he didn't. Gohda subdues George, and Genji stakes him. Gohda stakes Shannon, but the stake falls out when she goes facedown, but who cares, she's been gouged and killed, so the presence of the stake afterward is pointless. Genji exits, Gohda locks the door, places the key in George's pocket to add to the confusion, kneels down, and stakes himself in the chest by the door. Genji's not too necessary at this point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819364

Ah, right, well, whatever. I just don't think that the author would be nice enough to narrow down the murderers like that, even though nothing I've put forward puts Genji as a specific killer anyways, until I get around to the possibility of Gohda and/or Shannon being innocent.

So, let's discuss the final letter, the one that allowed Rosa to kick Battler out of the parlor. Rosa is growing increasingly paranoid, and wants Battler out. So, let's say that letter was actually found in Natsuhi's room. Its subject matter fits the location, though the magic circle seems tailored to another 'split everyone up' thing like the study in episode 1. But, only Rosa could've placed it, and I don't think she had the opportunity to write and seal a letter under Battler's supervision. So she placed it, knowing Battler or Maria would find it, and that would give her a suitable reason in front of Maria to suspect Battler and remove him from the equation.

As to events after this, I have no idea. No one's confirmed dead, everything's in 'that didn't happen' mode, so I'm not going to bother too hard with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819297
It says it passed through no one's hands until Rosa unsealed it "the next day". If the next day starts at midnight, then she might have had the key since before anyone even arrived at the chapel, unlocked it, showed everyone the gold inside, killed them, and locked it again, returning the key in a newly sealed envelope to seal the closed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819414

I thought that too, but I don't like the playing with words to that extent.

># This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
># Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

I suppose it's reasonable though, nobody ever verified that her taking it out that morning was the FIRST time it was unsealed.

Still though, Rosa's 180 on believing in the witch and suspecting the servants very specifically only started once she had a gun. That strengthened her position a lot and allowed her to actually state what she was thinking instead of riling the servants. Still, this part is a bit odd.

>Rosa: "Yes. At least you and Genji-san are alright. That is backed up by what I heard from Father. The two of you were in Father's room the whole time, copying and witnessing for him. Father and I can guarantee that."
>Genji: "....Thank you very much."

She certainly makes a point of giving an alibi to Genji and Shannon based off the testimony of a dead man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819414
What if there was another "lock".

Like, the door was unlocked normally, but a remote controlled SECONDARY lock was planted later that evening. The original lock would be inactive, and unlocked. Effectively, changing the locks, and there is still one "key" to the chapel, the remote.

This fulfills all the stuff in red...I think. Some of the stuff is a technicality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819471

*cackle*, that's out there. On the level of small bombs, I like it!

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819471

Hm, well, you're getting too high tech there, I think. It's 1986, something like that would be pretty noticeable, I'd think. The existence of it would probably still necessitate the assistance of the servants, since they'd PROBABLY see that while investigating.

In any case, I like to think Rosa wasn't the murderer of the six in the chapel. After all, she vomited like 4 times, and cried with Maria at the site. Rather, I think that she knew it was going to happen, let it be carried out, and aided in making it look like a closed room. She was probably offered a deal from the servants, Genji most probably, about being able to claim the inheritance and gold for herself, if she would aid in the killing of her siblings and their spouses. Considering she had pent up hatred for them anyways, and needed money, she doesn't seem too far from going with it. I mean, it's that or assume she killed them directly, right? Anyways, she goes along with it, but then Jessica and Kanon are killed, but she can't call the servants out on it, because that's calling herself out on being an accomplice, so she tries her hardest to suspicion them out of her sight.

Also, considering that she'd go along with the deal... She was probably already told Kinzo was dead, making the inheritance that much easier to claim.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819516
God damn it.

[Anonymous No.]

its very simple, the murders were committed by robot kinzo

[Anonymous No.]

>>2816929
Replying to something from hours ago, but:

It's pretty easy to explain it, without even needing to build up a theory with a specific culprit. The window is presented as being pretty accessible. Whoever the killer is in Ep4, they have a bunch of hostages, which, assuming Gohda+Kumasawa aren't in on it, gives the killer the power to tell them to make nooses and drape them around their necks. They can then shoot them through the window.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819350
>>2819383
This is in the realm of "I don't think this character would act this way," but you're considering roles for Gohda that don't really seem plausible. He may be plenty grateful to Krauss/Natsuhi/whomever for giving him a second chance, and he could certainly be involved in the murders, but I think that as far as servant involvement goes, he and Genji are likely to be mutually exclusive. You have Gohda as possibly fanatically devoted to Kinzo's craziness, which, barring some really important information about him that hasn't even been hinted at, he's not going to be after just a few years. The only reasonable motives for him are some sort of personal gain, or something to do with his pride/reputation. Genji, on the other hand, would pretty much only be involved through something to do with Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2819791

Sorry for the late reply, I ended up playing a bit of some Diablo clone with friends.

Also, I completely agree with you, it's just that to keep things simplest for episode 2, it's easiest to just assume every servant was in on it (except Kumasawa and Kanon, who don't really have to be in on it, though my theory for episode 1 definitely places Kanon there). Oh right, and Genji and Gohda's involvement isn't mutually exclusive, it's not like Genji couldn't be working because of fanatical devotion and Gohda because of monetary gains.

Anyways... On to the meat of the discussion. As I mentioned earlier, me and my friend didn't believe that Gohda was an accomplice at all, I also have my doubts that Shannon is fully on board with the scheme, but that's for later. Let's just do a run down of how Gohda could be absolved of guilt.

First twilight, this is easily accomplished by simply Rosa + Kanon/Genji. Genji walks up to the chapel, says it's locked (even if it's not), Rosa walks up, confirms it, comes back with key and opens it... Gohda has absolutely no reason to doubt either of them. Simple.

More in a bit...

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820053 cont.

So, the second twilight. Gohda's decently suspicious here, as he's the 'last' person to see Kanon/Jessica alive. Assuming he's telling the truth, we can assume Jessica went storming off to her room, coughing. Genji and Shannon are known to be in Kinzo's study, doing whatever, what with him being dead. So they have zero alibi, Genji could simply walk downstairs, aid Kanon in killing Jessica, Kanon kills himself or Genji kills him, and he drags Kanon off to somewhere out back (close enough to the kitchen for convenient later use). Still pretty simple.

Now, here's where it starts getting stretched... Rosa kicks everyone but George, Battler, and Maria out of the parlor, so Nanjo, Kumasawa, Gohda, Shannon, and Genji are in the kitchen. After the events leading to Kumasawa/Nanjo's 'deaths', they return to the parlor, and the conversation goes like this...

>Shannon starts the story off with ".... came... to the back door..." Gohda continues with "Th, that's right. Someone came up to the back door. Then, wondering who it was, I opened the door..." "......That person was, ...stained with blood, and had a large wound. ...We carried that person to the servants' room, and Doctor Nanjo immediately began first aid. .....It was, a very deep wound." when asked by Rosa who it was that was brought in, Gohda stumbles again with, "...I don't know! Certainly, ...in the beginning, I thought that was it. No, I still think that! But, .......what in the world was that!! ...I don't know..., ...I don't know!!"

>Genji takes some time to gather his thoughts before answering, as Gohda and Shannon are both too flabbergasted to give an answer. Genji replies to the question of who with, "........At first, ...I believed that person, was Kanon." "Yes. ........I cannot explain with words what happened after that. ......He killed Doctor Nanjo and Kumasawa, ......then disappeared. At that time, he was definitely not Kanon..."

More in next post...

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820064 cont again.

Now... We know it's retarded to think that Kanon was zombified and sent in to kill Nanjo/Kumasawa, so what would make Gohda act like this? We know next to nothing about what exactly happened in the kitchen, so I'm going to get a little creative here.

Genji/Shannon say they're going out to get something while Gohda makes food for everyone. They venture out back through an alternate exit, Shannon holds an umbrella for Genji so it's not too obvious they've been outside, Genji drags Kanon's corpse up to the door and props it there, and promptly exits the vicinity. Gohda gets a little freaked out inside, and eventually opens the door, and Kanon stumbles inside, heavily bleeding and wounded (and dead, but Gohda doesn't know this). Nanjo runs up, yells about how he needs immediate medical attention, and demands Gohda's help getting him to the servants' room. They start carrying him there, Shannon/Genji meet them on the way, feign surprise, and they go in. This part basically requires Nanjo's assistance, to not just look and notice 'yeah he's dead' the second he falls in the door.

So, they get to the room, set Kanon down, Nanjo begins 'treatment', and Genji orders Gohda out to get bandages or some random object for treatment. Opportunity! Genji kills Kumasawa, they fake Nanjo's death with a lot of fake blood, they either set Kanon's body up somewhere suspicious, or just toss him out the window, and tell Gohda that Kanon got up and killed Nanjo/Kumasawa and then disappeared / Genji killed him or whatever.

continued next...

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820076 cont a third time...

Now, this part is important to this theory... Kanon's master key, and Kumasawa's master key are left in the envelope. Genji leaves his master key with Nanjo, putting it in his pocket or something. They return to the parlor to report what happens. Nanjo gets up, drags off the corpse of Kumasawa and possibly Kanon's if they didn't just dump him out the window, locks the door, and leaves the master key somewhere Genji could get it (since it's guaranteed Genji gives his master key to Rosa once they get back to the servants' room). Problem painstakingly solved, if in a roundabout and not so likely manner. Gohda's out of his mind freaking out, his behavior in the lounge makes sense without him having to be a good actor.

So, now for Natsuhi's room. This might take a bit of typing. SOMEONE makes the suggestion to go to Natsuhi's room to find the mirror, or possibly just to be in a more defensible position. They get there, run through everything in the room (who cares if they're rough, she's dead), and then... We can assume Shannon is in on it here, if Gohda is not. Genji kills Gohda and George, with Shannon's aid (they'll simply meet in the golden land, right?). Genji then leaves the room, Shannon locks the door, places the key in George's coat, and this is the difficult part... Stabs herself in the head with a stake. She can't quite do it well enough, and it falls out, but it's not like she gets another chance.

So, we discussed this, my favorite theory is she simply placed the stake on the dresser and HEADDESKED it as hard as she could, and then just crumpled into the position Battler found her in.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820095 cont quadruple

So, stepping back a ways, we can absolve Shannon of guilt the opposite way we've done Gohda. For every situation where Shannon had to work with Genji, simply replace her with Gohda, and you win. Gohda kills Jessica and possibly Kanon, hides his corpse, goes and fetches it during the kitchen time and sends Shannon for bandages, kills George and Shannon and stabs himself in Natsuhi's room, voila.

Now... For them BOTH to be guilt free... Genji would have to pull the kitchen maneuver by himself, send off both Gohda and Shannon to fetch things from the servants' room, and the aforementioned weird situation with George being barely alive and creating the closed room would have to happen.

Basically, the more people you make guilt free, the less likely the threads of logic get. I mean, Genji would have to be an incredible pro to pull off all this stuff within the time frames allowed to him.

Oh right, and I forgot to mention, Nanjo was only necessary for dragging Kumasawa's corpse and his own off, and creating that closed room, Genji killed him with a butcher knife at his leisure later, dragged him and Kumasawa out into the rain and staked them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820076
Actually, if they did anything to Kanon's body is they lynched it. I mean, this is the same culprit who smashed up four kids bodies so bad it can no longer be recognized where the only identification was a jawbone found on the floor. They could have just thrown Kanon's lynched body around to shock everybody. Well, That's IF they really did anything to them. Cause personally I see no reason to take a corpse especially if your trying to make a murder scene look mystical.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820125

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was Kanon himself that destroyed the cousins at the end of episode 1, there's not too many other people still even possibly around, unless you're relying on CULPRIT X theory.

And what do you mean 'lynching his corpse'? Do you mean like freaking out Gohda by having it be desecrated to the extent that the ones in the chapel were? And do you mean Shannon/Genji doing it? If he was totally messed up upon coming in the door, that destroys all pretext to go to the servants' room, he's dead, he's easily identifiable as dead, he's obviously past the need for first aid.

And if you mean Shannon/Genji doing it, then that would really, REALLY just make him suspect them really heavily, I mean, he kills Nanjo and Kumasawa, and then they rip him up? Why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820141
Lynching I mean as in cutting off the body parts to where the body parts are definitly recognizable. The culprit (whoever) did it a while after they left and most likely Kanon's body was thrown out of the window under premise of 17>x>18 the culprit picked u[p Kanon's body afterwords went to the Garden Storehouse cut it apart with whatever and used some method to shock everyone in the room.

Therefore 'lynching' means cut off athe limbs head and everything the shock of seeing tings like this moving at or towards anyone can definitly throw anyone into a fit.

This theory can be easily destroyed if anyone else is the culprit but we definitly know 'Kanon died in this room' thing and Jessica was dead too. There was also this Battler's reasoning of 'what if someone cleverly played dead and waited until after the autopsy then committed the murder until dieing by some unknown means' thing.

[Anonymous No.]

How about this, then? It just hit me.

Six years ago, Battler figured out the answer to the riddle, and he told everyone (or someone) that he knew the answer (but not the answer itself), but noone believed in him. Six years later, with evidence of the gold actually being real, someone hatches a plan to force Battler to reveal the location of the gold by carrying out the murders indicated in the riddle (making Battler believe that the witch is real and that the only way to stop the murders would be to reveal the location of the gold).

. . .whether he lied about knowing the answer or he actually forgot about the whole thing, the fact that he once claimed that he solved the riddle, and COULDN'T REMEMBER, is his sin.

Of course, the main problem with this is that even Battler himself claimed that he once tried but couldn't solve the riddle. But then again, that explains the "the fact that you can't remember is your sin" part too. . .somewhat

Any problems with this, other than the previous paragraph?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820168

At the time of the servants' room murders in episode 2, there have been 8 confirmed deaths.

Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, and Hideyoshi were confirmed dead with red. Jessica was indirectly confirmed dead, by referring to her as a corpse, or more literally translated, a 'dead body' in red. Kanon was at the time of finding Jessica's corpse confirmed to have died in that room in red.

We know there were only 17 people on the island, so discounting some weird identity combination theory, that leaves Battler, Rosa, Maria, and George in the parlor, free from doubt for these murders, Shannon, Genji, Gohda, Nanjo, and Kumasawa in the kitchen. Those five are basically who you have to work with, unless you assume somebody showed up after the first twilight, or like I said a bit ago, the Kanon=Shannon nonsense.

Out of those five, who has the time and opportunity to cut up Kanon's corpse to make a fun show, and why? They're trying to pretend Kanon got up from near death and murdered Kumasawa/Nanjo and then took off. There was never any mention of such an atrocity, and I'm pretty sure someone would've thought that merited mention.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820190

Wasn't the portrait (and by extension the epitaph) only up two years ago? It'd work if you say Battler simply claims to have found the gold or something.

[Anonymous No.]

So, Battler finds a place with tons of gold 6 years ago, but noone believes him (being a kid, as consistent with what has been said earlier ITT). . .until now.

And maybe I missed something, but exactly what did Ange see in the boatman's room that made her go "I believe in magic" etc?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820190
The Culprit knew Battler in middle school and actually started saying why he does not talk the way he used too and it was said that it had nothing to do with his immediate family.

>>2820192
I'm pretty sure the parents death was never said in red Beatrice said if Battler wants to confirm put his hand inside the intestine and stuff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820255
Middle school thing image it. Also he seems to recognize the voice as his mind completely freezes even if he says he doesn't. But what I am trying to point out is who the hell can possibly replicate voice they had six complete years ago!?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820286
Someone who was already passed puberty when he talked to them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820255

You guys should keep track of red text referring to these episodes from later episodes... From episode 4:

># The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
># All were killed by other people!
># All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
># There was no simultaneous murder!!

[Anonymous No.]

About the two servants hung in the shed, I'm fairly sure battler said that he didn't see that they were shot from the window, doesn't that mean that they couldn't be shot from the window?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820321
Now doesn't that fuck with the theories going around now, huh? It seemed feminine but it does not mean that there could be more than just this culprit however this culprit definitly knew how Battler acted as a kid, couldn't be Shannon or Jessica too young and were just about to hit puberty. My best guess is Asumu but she's 'dead'. As the freeze could definitly be understandable, understanding of how he acted as a kid what he did, everything. All the other female adults besides Eva and Rosa hardly talked to the kids prior to this. Kumasawa - I don't think she ever left the island much six years ago.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820212

The theory I heard was that she saw a pile of Sakutaro dolls, thus explaining why she was able to resurrect Sakutaro.

This jives with the fact that Beatrice tried to say in red that there was only one Sakutaro doll, but the red stopped at "only" before she could finish the sentence:

# That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
# Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only[,]

[Anonymous No.]

What's all this about middle school? I think the joke was that when Battler was younger, he kept saying cheesy shit in English to Shannon and the rest, acting suave and so forth.
Middle school would come into it as that's when they'd learn the phrases she used on the phone. In pair-work.
How is that possible to complicate? Jesus.

[Anonymous No.]

Battler stopped being a pervert since EP2. Why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820838
Because it's the real Battler
The fake one was hired by Rudolf and he's actually a professional rapist

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820053
About the "mutually exclusive," that was my sleepy way of trying to say that it's hard to imagine Gohda killing himself, and I somehow extended that to working with Genji. oops

[Anonymous No.]

>>2820197
Did the riddle only come into existence with the portrait? It seems to me that it was around before, but then again I can't remember when that would have been said, so I don't know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2821608
It was put up with the portrait.


Also Jessica wasn't confirmed dead in red in Ep2. The reason for this is Beatrice brings up a theory later on in the Episode for Battler where Jessica was playing dead.

If she confirmed her death in red, she wouldn't have been able to do this as it'd make no sense.

Thus my conclusion is 'she purposely danced around the issue'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2822011
It was for a minor joke, yeah. But if what you're saying is true then Nanjo is also definitely in on it.

What confuses me is that she says "Jessica's corpse" in red early on and then just a bit later she starts the red after the word corpse. Not totally sure what to make of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2822138
There are a few instances of Beato using partial red text. Not sure if we can take it at face value or not, but if one can make a case that Jessica faked it, things might fall into place in a new way. As I've been told, the Japanese used here literally translates to 'Jessica's dead body'. I'm not a Japanese language major, but in English at least, 'dead' has meanings other than a state of lifelessness.

Just taking the applicable definitions from Webster, dead, as an adjective, can mean: without life; death-like; numb; without motion; out of play.

Key words here are 'death-like' and 'without motion'. But again, that's just English, so can someone with a high knowledge of Japanese offer up some info here?

[Anonymous No.]

I'd like to think that we can, at the very least, agree that Shannon and Jessica are the likeliest suspects when it comes to the question of who was appearing as Beatrice to Maria, at the end of Ep1, at various points in Ep2, and in Ep4. One of them could also be the one passing along letters to Maria to set down at various points. Given the fact that all the letters are sealed with wax, and there haven't been any BLATANTLY OBVIOUS scenes involving someone using a candle, it might be safe to say the letters were prepared well in advance.

It was theorized earlier in this thread that Maria might not be trustworthy to keep her mouth shut about things like opening the chapel, conspiring with the servants etc. But remember, Maria has never said the person giving her the letter was anyone other than Beatrice. Except in Episode 4, when she said it was Kinzo. If one of the servants/parents approached her and gave her some cock and bull story about being possessed by the witch, she'd probably buy it, but with all the pressure put on her by the adults later, I think she'd eventually cave and say "It WAS Beatrice! She was possessing ***** and gave me the letter!"

At the very least, whoever she met could appear close enough to the witch of the portrait to fool Maria completely, and without any loopholes the truth could be weaseled out with (Maria was asked many times in Ep1 'Who was the Beatrice that gave you the letter?'. Rosa seems unlikely in this case. Kyrie is a possible but she'd have to give Maria the entire bundle of letters along with orders when to deliver each. But in Ep1, Jessica survives and is near Maria to the end. In Ep2 Shannon survives, although several letters are left at the crime scenes. In Ep3 the letters stop after the first twilight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2822525
And in Ep4 the game doesn't last long enough to deliver many, although at least one is confirmable- Battler receives one from 'Beatrice'. He never finds the letters supposedly given to the rest of the cousins. And while Jessica and Shannon both appear to have died in Ep4, neither has a confirmed time of death, so either could have appeared on that balcony.

I wonder if it isn't a trick being perpetrated by BOTH of them. That might explain the change in tone of the letters in Episode 2. And why none were delivered in Episode 3 (Shannon died. Jessica and Maria were kept under guard by the parents.). Using just one as a author for the notes makes it hard to explain, but if BOTH girls are making the letters, things can fall into place rather easily. 'Beatrice' might be an amalgam of both Jessica's and Shannon's desires, maybe inspired by something Battler said 6 years ago.

But even if we accept Shannon and Jessica as 'Beatrice' that doesn't create opportunity for either to be committing many of the murders. Shanon dies at the start twice. Jessica once (maybe). Jessica is almost always in the presence of the cousins. I think they take the role of 'instigators' and are intentionally riling up the adults and servants for some reason.

[Anonymous No.]

You know... even though the servants refer to Beatrice as the 'other master' of the mansion, the 'Beatrice' that Battler talks to in Episode 4 refers to herself as 'The Ushiromiya family's furniture'. And then cacklingly tells Battler if he becomes the new head she's his to do with as he pleases.

[Anonymous No.]

I can't recall off the top of my head and I don't have a save handy, but who all was in the room in Ep 2 when the letter mysteriously appeared on the table? Battler, Rosa and a few others were in the room, but I don't remember who, or what the situation was. Might give a clue as to the letter sender though.

[Anonymous No.]

Read the TIPS and reread the letters. There seems to be more than one writer going by the tone and the wording of each of them. I can't remember for sure if some of them aren't sealed by wax, but there might have been some.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2824320
Only Battler, Maria and Rosa were left in Rosa's group. George, Shannon, and Gohda had just been found dead in Natsuhi's room. Genji was alive, but he shouldn't have had a key to the room. And 'Kinzo' of course, chillin in his room.

So in other words, since we can assume Battler didn't leave the letter, it must have been Rosa or Maria. Rosa is pretty clever, but I really doubt she came up with that letter just to chase Battler out without raising Maria's suspicions. She could just chase Battler out, and Maria probably wouldn't even ask why. So it is pretty much down to Maria, which isn't too surprising, given she was also one of the most doubtful people when the 'discord' letter appeared in Episode 1 as well. The only question is when and how she got that letter.

As for the seals, I don't recall exactly either, but I don't recall it ever being pointed out that any of the letters were NOT sealed with wax. It should also be said that the letters in Episode 1 were all pretty generic. They didn't make any situational comments, that is, say anything that implied an awareness of the game board. The letters in Episode 2 DID have some situational commentary, like taunting Jessica about her parent's deaths (although any of the cousins save Maria could have read that for the same reaction), and 'borrowing' Kumasawa and Nanjo. The letters in Ep1 might have all been prepared beforehand, but the ones in Ep2 seem rather improvised. That is not to definitely imply that there was a different writer, just that the situation seems to have changed forcing them to write new letters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>2824603
Oh yeah, and when they got back to the parlor, Rosa entered first with the gun. She checked the room, and when the letter was found said she had just checked there and it wasn't on the table. So unless she lied and either she or Genji left it there, that further underlines how suspicious Maria is.

[Anonymous No.]

However, all of the EP1 letters are rather respectful and refined, while EP2's outright mock and point out current events like you said. EP1's could all be talking about just solving the epitaph while EP2 were definitely about the murder. Assuming they all are sealed with wax could be a mistake, didn't every letter in EP1 specifically mention that they were sealed using that? And the first one of EP2 for sure.