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Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:31:14 2009 No.2792485 [Reply] [Original]

Carrying on from >>2789956

Let's continue on to Episode 2 shall we? The ground around Episode 1 is stamped pretty flat at this point, but even if we don't all agree about the finer details we've got a few pretty common points: Kanon is very, very suspicious. No alibis, and a very suspicious 'death' that is heavily contradicted by the red. Nanjo for sure, and maybe Kumasawa and Genji are assisting him. Jessica is the most likely author of the letters, since noone alive through the game had consistent chances to pass letters out to Maria and the killer in the second twilight, aside from her. That's just a good probability though, not anywhere near certain.

So let's talk about Episode 2 in a little more detail. Same culprits as game 1 behind the first twilight? Is Rosa involved? Who was the 'Kanon' the servants claim attacked them, and how did George and co get locked into Natsuhi's room?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:35:14 2009 No.2792495 >Who was the 'Kanon' the servants claim attacked them Why does anyone have to believe this guy even existed? Liars. They just killed Nanjo and Shannon and got a cover story.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:35:14 2009 No.2792498 >>2792495 Er wait Shannon survived that scene.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:38:14 2009 No.2792507

>>2792498

Nanjo and Kumasawa, though both of them have been shown to be decently suspicious through episode 1 anyways, I'd have thought Gohda would be killed if that were the case... Of course, nobody ever said Gohda wasn't a suspicious asshole, and maybe he's in with Shannon on the whole 'HEY MAYBE I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF A MASS MURDER' and they actually weren't killed that time around.

Also sadly I haven't re-read episode 2 at this point, so I can't discuss it as fully as episode 1.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:41:14 2009 No.2792517

For the first twilight, from the restrictions placed by the red, the only way the chapel could have been opened and closed once the victims were inside is if Maria opened and closed the door herself. She may have been led there by Rosa, who convinced the siblings to come to the chapel with her somehow and then killed them, or by another. By the scene we are shown, 'Beatrice' seems to be the one who leads them in. Did Jessica or Rosa wake Maria and lead her to the chapel? And then lead the adults to the chapel and kill them?

This of course begs the question of how. Leading the siblings there would be easy if you showed them a couple gold ingots. Maybe they were all drugged and killed in their sleep once inside?

At this point, the biggest suspects are those closest to Maria, since they needed her assistance opening the chapel. The cousins, Rosa, and maybe Shannon or Kanon.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:42:14 2009 No.2792518

>>Who was the 'Kanon' the servants claim attacked them

Maybe, I dunno...Kanon?
Perhaps, by that point he no longer considered himself "Kanon" but whatever his real name was. Thus, while he looked like Kanon, and would obviously be identified as such by anyone who only knew him by that name, if he adopted another persona under his "true" name, he wouldn't be "Kanon" anymore, and thus there is no contradiction with him being there despite being proclaimed as dead.

It has been said in red no one else can claim Kanon's name but him, but that doesn't mean he can't claim another name.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:46:14 2009 No.2792526 >>2792518 [Kanon died in Jessica's room.] Unless Kanon renouncing the name Kanon counts as "Kanon dying"...

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:48:14 2009 No.2792530

>>2792518
>It has been said in red no one else can claim Kanon's name but him, but that doesn't mean he can't claim another name.

It also doesn't mean the Kanon they found had to be alive. If the real killer had hidden among the dead somehow, and knew where Kanon's body was hidden, they could have knocked on the door, propped Kanon against it, and when the door opened he just fell in. At that point he was probably carried to the servants room without much of an examination, and then the real killed slipped in and attacked while everyone was realizing that Kanon was long dead.

It also doesn't mean someone can't dress up as him and pretend. Just because they can't claim his name as their own, doesn't mean that everyone else knows that somehow. If someone in Kanon's bloodstained clothes and a wig or something lurched into the room, they probably wouldn't be examined too closely, just carried quickly into the servants quarters. Then they attack, quickly killing Kumasawa and Nanjo while their guard is down, and flee.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:54:14 2009 No.2792541

If we take Kanon as the culprit behind most or all of Episode 1, he may have still been in action for parts of Ep2 and beyond.

If, for example, he attacked Jessica suddenly, stabbing her in the back, she may have fought back without thinking. Kanon was killed in the struggle. For some reason, Jessica removed the body from her room herself, stashing it someplace, and locked herself back into her room. Maybe she was confused, maybe she was Beatrice and wanted to make a closed room mystery out of her own death, maybe she didn't want to die next to the person who killed her mother. Who knows?

I think this is the best explanation for the second twilight though. There was no reason for anyone other than Jessica to remove Kanon's corpse from her room. All it did was cast suspicion upon themselves.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:58:14 2009 No.2792547

>>2792517

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the door could've been technically locked (cylinder locks), but just propped open, removing any need for the key in the first place if Rosa had simply unlocked, propped open, and relocked the door while leaving it open, and then gave the key to Maria, and made sure not to close the door until after the murders...

Feel free to correct me if this has been proven wrong somewhere.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:59:14 2009 No.2792551

>>It also doesn't mean someone can't dress up as him and pretend. Just because they can't claim his name as their own, doesn't mean that everyone else knows that somehow. If someone in Kanon's bloodstained clothes and a wig or something lurched into the room, they probably wouldn't be examined too closely, just carried quickly into the servants quarters. Then they attack, quickly killing Kumasawa and Nanjo while their guard is down, and flee.

But it's said in red "They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:00:14 2009 No.2792554 >>2792530 >>>/rs/"They_definitely_would_not_mistake_any_different_person_for_Kanon!"

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:04:14 2009 No.2792562

>>2792541
If she was stabbed in such a way that the wound was fatal, how would she be able to drag Kanon's body anywhere, let alone to such a place that nobody ever finds it, and go all the way back to her room to die?

If the death wasn't instantaneous, then she probably bled to death, but if that's the case then if she was moving and exerting herself that much, she would have to have left some sort of blood trail.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:06:14 2009 No.2792564

Oh yeah, mind if I bring in something from Episode 4? It might just be the way the sentence was translated, but I reread Jessica's conversation with Battler over the phone and she says, and I quote, "I know why Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san were evasive about the time the six in the dining hall were killed. ... Those guys... aren't... human." "I saw it, so what am I supposed to do?!! Those guys warp and set up barriers, ahhaha, and do whatever they want, you see?"

Now, you can take that two ways: Assume that "those guys" Jessica was talking about were Ronove, Gaap, and the others, or she's in fact talking about Gohda and Kumasawa.

Servants are in on it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:09:14 2009 No.2792573 >>2792564 I really wouldn't trust anything Jessica says, especially in episode four, where everyone is spouting magical nonsense. The stories match up so well that there has to be someone who created the entire tale orchestrating its delivery.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:14:14 2009 No.2792584

Sticking to my theory that there is a mysterious person X, which is Battler's half sister (Asumu's real child) and her name was Maria. She's the one playing the role as piece Beatrice.

How to get around the 17 people? She either isn't on the island at the point where that red applies (which I assume the start of the game), or the more unlikely Shanon = Kanon.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:15:14 2009 No.2792587

>>2792551
>>2792554
Alright then, then we take the first choice. Someone knocked on the kitchen door and tossed Kanon through.

I'm not going to accept that 'Kanon died' and his personality or identity changing can mean the same thing.

We can take things in a new direction however, like for example, Gohda could have followed after Kanon and Jessica and killed them himself, and hid Kanon's body to create a suspect. Motives would be unclear though. But a few folks have implied that Gohda has a thing for Natsuhi. If we take that to heart, maybe he struck back at her possible killers (how he figured that out is anyones guess). And maybe he got Genji and Shannon on his side somehow, allowing him to take out the other conspirators behind the first twilight. But for some reason he killed Shannon, George and himself in that room (was that covered by the red? I don't recall)? I'm sure someone could flesh that out if they wanted to.

And I have no idea who was writing the letters in that case. But one thing is clear- after the first twilight, either the author changes, or their writing style does.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:23:14 2009 No.2792605

>>2792584
This is more or less my theory, except I believe that Maria isn't Battler's sister, she's an unrelated girl Kinzo picked up because of her resemblence to Beatrice. The 'Asumu's real son' thing is a red herring. Maria is also probably *not* the mastermind behind the killings.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:23:14 2009 No.2792606 >>2792485 Sorry to go back to the 1st game, but couldn't Maria have obtained the letters all at once, and was instructed by "Beatrice" to distribute them at separate times? Possibly leaving it up to Maria as to when to drop them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:23:14 2009 No.2792608 >>2792584 >there is a mysterious person X, which is Battler's half sister (Asumu's real child) and her name was Maria How on earth did you come up with something so contrived?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:25:14 2009 No.2792613

>>2792562

Why can't she? People have done some pretty crazy things on the verge of death. And sure, it seems unlikely, but maybe Kanon didn't wound her at all and she just killed him then committed suicide instead. Falling backwards onto some sort of stake wouldn't be easy but it's not impossible.

>>2792573
All things considered, Jessica's conversation with Battler is highly suspect. She knew things she shouldn't have. And I have a hard time believing that she was being coerced. If she knew she was gonna die with such a certainty she could even describe how, why not tell Battler the truth with her last breath instead of spouting gibberish?

Same with Kyrie, but Kyrie is smart though. She dropped some pretty obviously coded statements in what she said and even told him to 'stop thinking and accept the witch'. If Battler had time to calm down and apply his favorite move, what does that tell us?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:30:14 2009 No.2792623

>>Asumu's real child

Maybe it's just me, but I think there IS no child of Asumu. Not living, anyway.

Rudolph was seeing both Kyrie and Asumu, and manages to get both pregnant. Having to pick one to marry, he for some reason chooses Asumu.

Then Asumu and Kyrie both have their babies, and something goes wrong with one of them, and one of the babies is dead. We're led to believe that Kyrie's child is the one that died, and apparently even Kyrie herself believes it. But what if that's not what happened? What if it was woman who Rudoplh married who lost the child instead? If it came out that a legitimate heir to the Ushiromiya family died, while an illegitamate one born out of wedlock survived, it wouldn't look very good for them, would it?

So, perhaps Rudolph or someone else decided to switch the babies. That way, the child of Rudolph that lived could inherit the Ushiromiya name and have a chance to inherit the title and fortune that came with it later in life. While either way a mother would be heartbroken, at least that way the child could live a good life as part of the Ushiromiya family.

...of course, then Asumu died, Rudolph married Kyrie, and things wound up being as they probably were meant to have been from the very beginning. If Rudolph knew the truth of what happened, it still would have been far too late to tell his wife and son the truth.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:30:14 2009 No.2792624

>>2792613
>If she knew she was gonna die with such a certainty she could even describe how, why not tell Battler the truth with her last breath instead of spouting gibberish?
Either because she didn't want to incriminate herself, or because the one forcing her had a hostage (Kanon). The only way to know how you're going to die is if you do it yourself or your killer tells you.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:32:14 2009 No.2792626

>>2792605
>>2792584
If there were a third 'Beatrice' in human form and not hidden inside someone's psyche or something, wouldn't Kinzo be more interested in her than in his black magic and that crazy resurrection ceremony? Same if she had a child.

I think the epitaph was something he was planning for a long time, and he was mad about Maria's name because he was afraid it would create a 'false positive' and make it harder to solve.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:33:14 2009 No.2792629 >>2792624 This goes perfectly with her choice for the test. She chose to sacrifice herself to save Kanon, even though he may have died soon after.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:33:14 2009 No.2792630

>>2792608
Not the person who posted that, but

Mysterious Person X = Flashbacks in Episode 3 strongly suggest the existence of a "third Beatrice" after the one Rosa met died. "Third Beatrice" being Jessica or Shannon just isn't really believable to me.

Maria = Kinzo being angry about Rosa giving her daughter that name, the name maybe being embedded in the epitaph, the letters written by "Beatrice" signed "Ushiromiya Maria". Happy Maria! the song also only plays in a Beatrice scene, but that's more minor.

Battler's half sister thing, wellllll.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:34:14 2009 No.2792631

>>2792608
It came to me during one of the threads about Battler's sin. It would explain what the hell happened to Asumu's child. Even if it was a stillborn, there would have to be a reason that Battler's real mother (assumed to be Kyrie) gave him up.

There are similar theories like mine, I tend to be the only one who cares to explain where the baby switch up took place.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:35:14 2009 No.2792634 >>2792626 Considering what we know about Kinzo's condition prior to and during the start of the games, I think whatever intention he did or did not have for the Epitaph is somewhat of a moot point.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:35:14 2009 No.2792635 >>2792626 Kinzo is dead, and no one really knows for how long. The portrait might not have even been made by him. And if it was it might have nothing to do with resurrecting the golden witch at all.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:37:14 2009 No.2792638

>he for some reason chooses Asumu.

And this is what interests me. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'perfect couple' we saw take down the stakes in EP3 are as much of a facade as the Rosa/Maria relationship, and that's part of the reason Battler left in the first place.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:38:14 2009 No.2792639

>>2792623
That's exactly how I saw it. Either Kyrie honestly doesn't know and Rudolf switched them under everyone's noses, or more likely Kyrie is faking ignorance and willingly gave up her child so that he could be the legitimate heir.

This also lead me to think that Battler's sin has to do with rejecting Kyrie, his true mother, but Beatrice said in red that it has nothing to do with his immediate family.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:38:14 2009 No.2792640

>>2792626
The flashback scene, to me, almost conclusively proves the existence of a 'third Beatrice', but it also shows that that person wasn't really 'Beatrice' as she was growing up--she was introduced to the concept by Virgilia, she apparently references Kinzo without associating him with the legend or anything.

My personal guess about that is that Rosa's Beatrice was the daughter of the original, which, in Kinzo's mind, let him justify that she was a 'reincarnation'. Rosa's Beatrice didn't leave behind any daughter, so the 'third Beatrice' would have been an unrelated child picked up for her face, and Kinzo probably didn't acknowledge her as the true Beatrice in his lifetime--as a human vessel to be used in the ceremony, maybe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:39:14 2009 No.2792644 >>2792638 Battler admits himself that it was just childish pride, thinking that his mother had been betrayed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:40:14 2009 No.2792646 >>2792623 He would've needed to bribe (or something) the doctors to tell Kyrie that her child died.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:41:46 2009 No.2792649 >>2792640 Oops, by flashback scene I mean the flashback in the beginning of Episode 3.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:42:14 2009 No.2792653

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it was never CONFIRMED that Battler was even eligible for being Beatrice's opponent... It was stated in red that he was not Asumu's birth child. It was then stated in red that all one needed to be eligible to be her opponent was to be a grandson of Kinzo. And yet nobody ever said he was a grandson of Kinzo, Beatrice just stopped trying to disqualify him.

The possibility exists Battler has no blood relation to Kinzo. He very well could just be 'RANDOM ORPHAN WE GRABBED OFF THE STREET' used to make sure Rudolf had an heir to be more viable in the discussion of the estate. If that makes any damn sense. (I am thinking he's probably Kyrie/Rudolf's son, but the possibility also exists he's not related)

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:44:14 2009 No.2792658

>>2792623
My thoughts are along the same lines with one addendum: I think both children survived. Jessica was born to Asumu, who was going to name her 'Battler' or 'Sento' or something like that, but someone intervened somehow. Kinzo might have taken one of Rudolph's children and given it to Krauss since he and Natsuhi had been at it for 12 years with no dice. Or Krauss did it himself. Kyrie was sedated when she went into labor thanks to a few handy bribes and was told later she'd miscarried. If Kinzo was behind it all, he may have wanted to ensure that he was getting a legitimate heir for Krauss, and also covering up for Rudolph, removing the problem of an illegitimate child.

Krauss, Natsuhi and Rudolph are the only ones aware of this, and Rudolph might be afraid not only of Kyrie and Battler's reactions to the news, but also afraid that he might be in danger since he can prove Jessica isn't the closest cousin to Kinzo- George is. And honestly, Battler and Ange look very much alike. Even if he didn't confess, Kyrie would have realized sooner or later.

Ange seemed to know as well. Although she died before what exactly she knew became clear.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:45:14 2009 No.2792660

>>2792631
The thing your forgetting is, for the red to work out, there must be TWO Ushiromiya Battlers. The name must have been decided before Asumu's child was born, but then that child got replaced by the Battler we know, who took his name. Sort of like how Virgillia, Eva, and Ange are all Beatrice, so any red using the name Beatrice could apply to any of them.

Would they really name a girl "Battler"?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:46:14 2009 No.2792661

>>or more likely Kyrie is faking ignorance and willingly gave up her child so that he could be the legitimate heir.

But the last time she speaks with Battler on the phone in Episode 4, she mentions acting cold towards him at first. If she knew Battler was really her son all along, would she really have been that great of an actress to be like that when she was finally reunited with and able to live with him?

Even if her fight with the stake didn't happen, her explanation about her feelings towards Asumu and even Battler would better explain why she would treat Battler coldly than it all being one big, long act.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:47:14 2009 No.2792666

>>2792660
Though it's really twisting words, it's possible that Asumu didn't know the sex of her child, and was going to name him Battler if it was a Boy, and Maria (or whatever else) if it was a girl. That might qualify, as at that point the unborn child would have two "names".

That or something like >>2792658

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:48:14 2009 No.2792667 >>2792653 An heir picked up 18 years in advance? I don't think Rudolf takes after Kinzo that much.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:49:14 2009 No.2792669 >>2792660 They're Japanese dude, who the hell knows. Battler describes 'George' and 'Rudolph' and 'Jessica' to be just as crazy names as 'Battler'.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:53:14 2009 No.2792677 >>2792669 True, and George, Ruldolf, and Jessica are a lot less gender neutral than Battler. Maria, Rosa, Eva... Battler's pretty much the only one in the family with name that isn't distinctly masculine or feminine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:55:14 2009 No.2792691 Technically Battler's name is pronounced 'Batora' if that helps out any.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:57:14 2009 No.2792696 >>2792691 But it's based on the English word Battler. Ryukishi agreed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:57:14 2009 No.2792700 >>2792691 But it's written in kanji, so the second Battler would have to have his or her name written with the same characters.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:58:14 2009 No.2792703 >>2792677 Is it even a real name?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 03:59:14 2009 No.2792706

In regards to Battler's sin there is one thing that I haven't seen mentioned. Due to how Beato took the news of Battler not being able to remember his sin made it seem that the games up until that point were trying to make Battler remember as they seemed to all lead up to her asking him that question. The thing I've wondered which has become more relevant with the undetermined time of Kinzo death is why does the fantasy side explicitly manifest itself as demons and witches.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:03:14 2009 No.2792716

>>2792696
>>2792700
True, I know that. But while 'Batora' isn't necessarily any less masculine than Battler, it certainly can't be more. If the name was agreed upon ahead of time (or even decided by Kinzo. He might just do something like that judging how he named his children.), then it might have already been 'on paper' when Asumu's child was taken and Kyrie's passed on to her. Battler inherited the name from his predecessor.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:05:14 2009 No.2792720

>>2792706

So... What you're trying to say is that the illusions Beato shows Battler are actually subtle hints as to the nature of his sin?

I'm not exactly buying that, 'demons and witches' incorporates a LOT of stuff, and Kinzo is a big one for witches, along with Maria. Episode 1 also foreshadows a lot of things that happen in the meta-world, interestingly enough. At one point Battler thinks to himself what Ange later tells him. Something along the lines of, "An idea is like an arrow, don't just shoot one and assume it'll hit, suffocate your opponent with a barrage." Rather similar to Ange criticizing him over making one theory and sticking with it.

If anything's affecting anything, I'd say it's that the illusions are based off of Battler's idle thoughts. Gaap, the 33rd demon, capable of instant teleportation is mentioned by Maria to Battler, etc etc. It's a bit odd to see the Siestas, a direct line to Maria's thoughts, but whatever.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:06:14 2009 No.2792723

>>2792667
Since both Eva and Krauss' families seemed to make a big deal about having a heir. It's possible having a child gives you more clout, and thus Rudolf wanted to make sure he had one too.

Then again, it seems kind of unnecessary to adopt one, even if Kyrie's child was stillborn she could have another one (unless she became unable to have children after that).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:07:14 2009 No.2792728 >>2792723 >even if Kyrie's erm I mean Asumu

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:10:14 2009 No.2792734

>>2792723

Well, the quicker the better. Not to mention... Nobody necessarily said that Kyrie didn't miscarry, and Asumu did. It's entirely possible Battler was just replaced with a similar in appearance child early in his life. Maybe Asumu was a terrible mother and dropped him off a cliff or something, and Rudolf just grabbed an orphan because how fucking embarrassing would it be to say your wife dropped your kid off a cliff so you were having another one. Rosa shits a brick about appearing unfit for an Ushiromiya, I can't imagine the other siblings wouldn't act relatively similarly.

Really though... How similar Battler looks to Kinzo when he was young kind of fucks that theory. It's been implied a decent bit that Battler is Rudolf's son. Similar height (unusually tall), similar in appearance to a young Kinzo, etc etc.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:10:14 2009 No.2792735

>>2792720
It might be better to say that alot of what is seen in the meta world is taken from Maria's mind. Other parts may be culled from Beato #2's memory, given that 'Virgilia' seems quite the bit younger than she would if it was just a few years prior. And Ronove could be a younger, cooler Genji. Gaap is iffy, she might be representative of Eva, given her propensity for kicking and her attitude in general.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:15:14 2009 No.2792740

>>2792735

Very possible, it just seems that the events Battler witnesses and the people he meets in the meta-world(disregarding Bern and Lambdadelta) are representations of real things. Maria's imaginings, weird alter-egos of people he knows, etc...

It's stated in the first ???? that the nature of the meta-world is Beatrice herself, so who knows, maybe looking into that is a worthy pursuit. Is Beatrice simply an amalgamation of the Ushiromiya family's summed up malice and killing intent, fighting against Battler, the only one removed from the family for six years and thus separate enough to recognize and 'battle' it? Kind of getting out there into pointless land, on top of ignoring several plot threads, but whatever, just throwing ideas out.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:20:14 2009 No.2792751

>>2792734
I think it's important to remember that Kinzo was very big on keeping the name of the Ushiromiya untarnished. And he's very rigidly set in his ways. But look what he gets- an heir that seems to be impotent, a stubborn daughter that can't get it in her head that a woman's place is in the kitchen, a playboy, and a general incompetent.

Suddenly, the playboy has not one, but two kids on the way. Kinzo tends to make up his own rules. A scenario like in >>2792658 is not impossible for him.

His taking Jessica over Battler is simply due to the fact that he didn't want a bastard becoming the next in line to the house after Krauss.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:22:14 2009 No.2792756

>>2792700
This would be a very interesting note to take.

戦人 can be pronounced as Sento, or Senri (which is a feminine name). We can be lead to believe that 戦人 was supposed to be read as Battler.

If this was the case though, the anime would have trouble in delivering this.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:22:14 2009 No.2792757

>>2792740
I actually think that this is in a sense correct, but meta-Beatrice still has a definite "center" or "origin" in piece-Beatrice, if that makes sense. It would be like the distinction between the killer's Stakes and Ange's Stakes, or Maria's Sakutarou and Ange's Sakutarou. They are based upon the same thing, but are not exactly the same thing.

Basically, I think piece-Beatrice, whoever you think it is, wrote a Mary Sue and everyone else kept adding onto it, culminating in Meta-Beatrice's existence. But by the end of Episode 4 it's also heavily implied that Meta-Beato's existence is becoming more confused/become more blurred with piece-Beato, with her constant switching between referring to herself as "watashi" or "warawa", depending on what's going on.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:23:14 2009 No.2792762 >>2792756 Mystery series tend to post names and ages over characters as they are introduced. So I don't think it'll be difficult.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:33:14 2009 No.2792787

Rudolph brought an accomplice along on the boat (the fucker was hanging on the anchor). That accomplice made deals with everyone on the island (excluding Battler) to 'help them get the inheritance' if he gets a decent cut.
After that he starts slaughtering the people he made a deal with, this is quite easy, since they trust him and even try luring their opponents with them, so they can be killed.
Everyone thinks that they're safe because they made that deal, not knowing that all the others also made that deal.

If this isn't it, I bet it's Kinzo with a wig.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:33:14 2009 No.2792788

>>2792757
I took that to mean that there are actually THREE Beatrices. Piece Beato, Meta Beato, and a third that only seems to have shown herself in this game, and possibly the last (depending how you interpreted her confrontation with Evatrice), /ragequit Beatrice. Just going by the Tea Party, the Beatrice that Battler had been fighting and the strange one that appeared and gave him the final riddle seem to be different. That one is cold, emotionless. Same as when she switched off with Piece Beato and tried to erase Battler.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:41:14 2009 No.2792809

>>2792788
I wouldn't agree that the last Beatrice who appeared to give the riddle was "cold and emotionless"--that was the Beatrice who embraced Battler as Discode swelled in the background.

In a sense I kind of agree, but more along the lines of: piece-Beato (the human), meta-Beato (the culmination of everyone's perception of Beatrice, with piece-Beato's construction at the center), and the last Beato, who functions like ANGE-Beatrice to the human Ange--something created to communicate piece-Beatrice's intentions and sorrow in a way impossible for the human herself, while not exactly being the same existence as that human.

The times Beatrice switches to "watashi" seem important to me. The final riddle with the "who am I", some of the flashing red text ("please kill me" was watashi, "try and stop me" was warawa), and in the fight during the tea party, when she was talking about how she wasn't reflected in Battler's eyes. 'Warawa' seems to be the witch, 'watashi' seems to be glimmers of whatever is human beneath the veneer of the witch.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:52:14 2009 No.2792832

>>2792809
(While I'm rambling about the SUPAR DEEP clues in Japanese pronouns, the Beatrice Rosa met used 'warawa'. Given how Kinzo raised her from the start to be a replacement and think of herself as a witch, that's almost certainly how Beatrice is "supposed" to refer to herself. The flashback at the beginning of Episode 3, meeting Virgilia and before becoming 'Beatrice', is narrated with "watashi".)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 04:54:14 2009 No.2792836 >>2792809 Agh, I didn't know she started switching self-references. That does seem kind of important, really.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:03:14 2009 No.2792858 Whenever I read warawa in romaji, I always get a mental picture of Yuuko from xxxHolic saying it all slow and drawn out to Watanuki.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:06:14 2009 No.2792866 >>2792858 beatrice has yuuko's va

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:19:14 2009 No.2792903

>>2792866

Fascinating.

A shame this has died down a bit, perhaps on Saturday I can come back and lay down some more concrete theories as to the culprits of episode 2 when I finish rereading it. I rather enjoyed rereading episode 1 and coming up with Kanon as the main culprit. Maybe after getting through all of them and taking notes I can get a better idea as to the big picture.

Some interesting theories about the epitaph have popped up as well, like 'gouge the X and kill' going towards the kanji in people's names or the upper part of the epitaph to produce new kanji and a new meaning. As well as the epitaph potentially being built around the kanji used in the siblings' (and potentially the cousins') names. I need to get around to rereading the part concerning Eva actually solving the epitaph, as that should hold some clues as to how the epitaph is structured at least. From my vague memory it seems to point out a location on the island not too far from the guest house, since Eva/Rosa can just walk to it, so it probably points out a series of land marks somehow.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:43:14 2009 No.2792993

Ah, already found something.

Kinzo could not have died more than 2 years prior. The scenes at the beginning of episode 2 prove this, as when George comes out to talk to Shannon and Jessica, he remarks that Kinzo had shown up and that George had been told to leave, he is also called back to talk to Kinzo about a marriage meeting he was to attend.

Shannon then gets rebuked by super bitch (Eva), then ice queen (Natsuhi), then goes and talks to the portrait, placing the scene at least after the portrait was placed, in 1984. It seems like it's a decent bit after that point as well, considering she'd made it her daily habit to treat the portrait like her damn diary and whine at it.

Of course, the truth of these scenes is of course, up in the air, as it's not in red or in Battler's POV, but there's really no reason to doubt them up to this point.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:50:14 2009 No.2793026
File: 62 KB, 656x519, umineko4_end.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I don't know about you guys.
But after reading episode 4, I am leaning heavily toward for MAGIC.

Especially the last line. Unless Beato plan the murder when she was still a human, I don't see how you anti-fantasy fags can explain this.

Also Battler is highly suspicious, I won't be suprise if he has some multiple personality disorder or something. Some of the murder are unexplainable unless he himself is the murderer.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:56:14 2009 No.2793044 >>2793026 The food he ate was poisoned. Next?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 05:59:14 2009 No.2793054 >>2793044 Right so you think Beato poison his food way back when she was still a alive as a human do you think Beato was on the island to poison the food and then get out during the typhoon?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:00:14 2009 No.2793058 >>2793026 >I can't explain it, so it was supernatural. Congratulations, you're a theist.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:02:14 2009 No.2793063

>>2793026

... Which murders are unexplainable without Battler as the culprit?

>>2793044

># You are all alone on this island.
># And of course, I am not you.
># Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

While it's not too hard to think up a method where Battler could die, it's difficult to think up an appropriate 'I' for Beatrice to mean in this scenario. It is almost guaranteeing that there is a 'Beatrice' on the island. Is it figuratively the Beatrice inside Maria or Jessica's mind(both of which are questionable in existence)? Is it the damn corpse of the Beatrice Rosa met that Kinzo could've found and buried?

It's an interesting thing to ponder, because it implies in red that there is a Beatrice on the island. ... Or 'here' could just refer to the meta-world, but that's really fucking with sentence structure, referring to herself in the meta-world but Battler on the damn game board, it's not even wordplay, it's just simple error.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:13:14 2009 No.2793099

I know the years dont match, but hey, small bombs... What if battler is Beato son?
We know for certain that Kinzo performed sexual acts on beatrice when she was a prisioner in his mansion. If we think of that beatrice, not the daughter of the original one, who gave the gold to Kinzo, but the personalisation of Kinzo delusions, that would make her the first beatrice, who died because of maria. The daughter of the first beatrice had a son (with kinzo or someone else, Incest FTW) who was battler. Blabalabla, Kinzo exchanged babies with Susuma for some reason, and when Battler rejected de Ushiromiya name, it drove him to madness, starting all the LOL Resurrection of the Witch thing.

Please ignore all the loopholes, and contradictory stuff and consider the central idea.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:13:14 2009 No.2793100 File: 171 KB, 656x519, umineko_battler_reasoning.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2793063 You really gonna believe his reasoning? More like he himself kill Nanjo after noticing how he is Eva accomplice.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:19:14 2009 No.2793116

>>2793063
I like to let that go by thinking that by this point, Battler is batshit insane from killing his family, and Beatrice is nothing more than a delusion to deny reality. Whe beatrices says that, its him desiding to kill himself, while still denying beeing the culprit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:20:14 2009 No.2793117 Battler pushed the red button in Kinzo's study 6 years ago

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:23:14 2009 No.2793120

>>2793100

I don't like talking to trolls.

># After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision.
># Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice.
># Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
># Nanjo was killed by another person
># Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
># A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!

Battler, Eva, nor Jessica killed Nanjo in episode 3. Battler's theory is probably correct, the question is simply who could have fit the bill. I've seen George put forward, but I haven't gone and looked over episode 3 so I don't know if that was really possible or not. Whoever could've reasoned that Nanjo was suspicious (or been in a near-death state of mind that just made them look for anyone they didn't regard as not suspicious) is viable for this murder.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:26:14 2009 No.2793131

>>2793116

This is completely disregarding red text and the unspoken (oh wait we speak it all the time) rule that Battler's POV is reliable, even if not immune to tricks/mental breakdowns.

If we do that we're simply stepping into 'is it a metaphor?' land with no concrete basis for suspecting anything. Hell, given that you're not accepting the red text, you're not even in fantasy land, just insanity land.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:29:14 2009 No.2793134 I wonder why some of guys think Beatrice must be a human. Have they forgotten Bernkastel's line in "???" of EP1?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:37:14 2009 No.2793159 >>2793099 I suppose you want us to ignore the wrong names and outbursts of idiocy as well.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:47:14 2009 No.2793188

>>2793159

It wouldn't be a good theory if we didn't at least fill in the gaps and correct fallacies for him.

>>2793099

All right, let's see... Battler as Beato's son. 1967 is when Rosa met and inadvertently got homunculus Beatrice killed. Battler was born... 1968. So no. Didn't happen. Perhaps next time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:50:14 2009 No.2793194 >>2793188 Was it confirmed that Beatrice died in 1967? The boatman said that all boats to the other port stopped in 1968.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:52:14 2009 No.2793200

>>2793188

Okay, to be fair, let's assume that 'real Battler' was born from Rudolf and Asumu in 1968, then died a year later. Nanjo saw this as an opportunity to save 'Beatrice's son' from his ridiculous fate holed up in Kuwadorian (Nanjo would definitely be the only person Kinzo would trust to deliver a child from Beatrice, and to know of Kuwadorian), and faked this kid's death, informed Rudolf of this kid and perhaps his backstory, and Rudolf accepted the similar looking child (his extremely younger brother) as his son, explaining how Battler could look so much like Kinzo. This 'fake Battler' could in actuality be a late developing 19 year old, simply told his birth date was July 15th, 1968.

There, have I filled in the holes to your liking? Hell, I daresay it's not the most far fetched piece of crap I've heard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:54:14 2009 No.2793202 >>2793194 No, he said "That was about 30 years ago, ......so around Showa 43 (1968), I think."

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 06:56:14 2009 No.2793209
File: 36 KB, 646x506, 07151129.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2793194

Hm, not to my memory. That's right, it was merely the discussion between Beatrice and Kinzo that happened in 1967, it wasn't confirmed whether or not Rosa ventured out and met her the same year or not, to my knowledge. So hell, telling Battler a wrong age wasn't even completely necessary under this theory.

>>2793200

Oh right, to move even further... Perhaps 11/29 is his real birthdate. 07151129 could be a cleverly arranged number someone gathered from Nanjo or something to mess with him.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:01:14 2009 No.2793222

>>2793200

Oh, and to move even ridiculously further into this shitstorm of a theory... Losing both his lover and the son he probably valued more than his legitimate children in the same year or 2 years, Kinzo could've gone off the deep end and more seriously devoted himself to black magic, beginning his shut-in ways, ordering the construction of the study as a home-inside-his-home, ordering occult books, looking over auctions for that sort of thing, etc etc.

Rudolf also might've suspected his own murder by nature of someone dropping a hint at the family conference about Battler's true nature. As that is something Kinzo might kill for, or in the absence of Kinzo, might be worth removing from the equation, as everyone there would know how much higher Kinzo would value a son of Beatrice than children by that atrocious whore of a wife.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:05:14 2009 No.2793230

>>2793134
Probably because
>Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
meaning nothing else could have killed him. Of course, this is a huge contradiction to
>The only one alive on this island is you.
>And of course, I am not you.
>Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
The first line (nothing but humans) is said in game 3, so you might interpret it in such a way that it only applies to that game, but I think it sounds like it applies to every game, because the "board" is used in every game.

I wonder if the red can really be used on future events. We know it's not limited to simple facts. Ange says quite a few commands with it. Beatrice laughs with it. Obviously there's no way for either of these things to be true or false. Claims about the future are different, since the truth value will be revealed eventually, but for the red to be able tell the absolute truth about a future event would imply the import of predestination. In this case, the red not only tells the truth, but predicts the future. What if someone hears this prediction and tries to stop it? Would they be unable?

A few interesting lines:
>If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved
Didn't he accept her for a moment at the end of the second game? Of course, Battler will probably resolve all of the riddles himself in time, so it makes no difference.
>I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes
Can't really be sure if he has been turned to ashes already and revived, or if that's to come in the future, but I don't think it would be a very good end to the story.

Unfortunately these are the only lines in the future tense (other than the end of game 4 and lowering the number to 17, which she made good on) Hopefully the translation hasn't left any out, because I don't know enough Japanese to check the original script for future tense.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:06:14 2009 No.2793231

>>2793222

Hell, staying truer to the original theory, perhaps Kinzo eventually found out that Battler was his true son, and brokered a deal with Rudolf to guarantee a good upbringing for the child, since it was too late for Kinzo to be a father to him (you never know, he might be a reasonable and good guy, it's not like we've seen him interact with anyone he cares about, beyond WAILING over Beatrice not being around). And upon Battler forsaking the Ushiromiya name, snapping and devising the epitaph and a murder spree attached to it and grooming his servants to carry it out for him when the conditions were right. Hell, perhaps the 'conditions' he set were to punish Battler specifically, he's always one of the last survivors, after all.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:13:14 2009 No.2793248

>>2793230

She has likened Battler to a phoenix before, given his nature to always rise up and fight back. So I think

>I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes

was probably taken care of in the second game. As to the red for the future... Some of the red I think you can casually disregard, such as laughing, or commands, but as for

>Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board

If we take it to cover all games, past and future, it's really more of a 'this was always a rule, I'm just telling it to you' sort of thing. Bern tells Battler in the first ???? that he needed to observe the game and find the rules in order to win, and Beato simply telling him one like that is quite convenient.

As for Beato killing him... Poison still seems the most viable. Beatrice is on the island. Her corpse from 1967/8 is probably buried somewhere, so that's a pretty cheap cop out, but if you assume there's a 'human' Beatrice, that was killed at some point earlier, it's still possible that she directly poisoned the food, 'killing' Battler. Or she is simply a gathering of malicious intent or something and Battler insanity's it up and kills himself 'before the murderers can get him'.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:18:14 2009 No.2793260

>>2793248
Yes, I understand how that can be considered a rule of the game. I was talking about the "I will kill you" part. If this really has no meaning, then anything could have killed him, not necessarily Beato. Take that along with the rule of humans only, and you get that Battler commits suicide.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:27:14 2009 No.2793274

>>2793159
Yeah i know i suck at expressing myself in english, sorry about that, it made the ilogical things i said, even more ilogical. That and i wrote what came to my mind, so some things probably dont make sence.

I doubt Battler birthdate has been confirmed in red, since it has never been an important part of the story. Also to make this theory posible, we would have to go with the one that says "Red is for personal truth" due to Ange calling him brother.

I think this theory is posible, but certainly not correct.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:31:14 2009 No.2793279

>>2793274

What do you think of the ridiculous premise I laid out across>>2793200
>>2793209
>>2793222 and
>>2793231 ?

Did that cover what you were thinking relatively effectively? Far as I know, it doesn't contradict any red truths, it's just unfounded, though it does give motivation to some killings, and could probably be worked into a competent 'why' for most scenarios people have been thinking up.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:33:14 2009 No.2793282

>>2793274
>Ange calling him brother.
This is very likely an absolute truth. Most people accept that Battler was born from Kyrie and switched with Asumu's son, making him Ange's full blooded brother.

Besides, the whole personal truth thing was disproven when Battler couldn't say Asumu was his mother.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:44:14 2009 No.2793312

>>2793279
Yeah pretty much. I mean, that dress Beatrice uses can easily hide a pregnancy...
I'm not too sure about Kinzo not knowing Battler was his son, i think it would have more sence if he decided that placing him as Rudolf son would make it easier for him to name him his succesor.
He went somewhat insane with his olevr death, but Battler giving up on Ushiromiya name, was the drop that filled the glass.

Battler's mom would be the imprisioned Beatrice, whose mother would be the original Beatrice. Making Kinzo Battler's father and grandfather. Pretty good reason for him to exchange babies, incest was not that common on that time. Only after hentai becamed popular it was widely acepted to rape your daughter.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:48:14 2009 No.2793326

>>2793282
The human mind is much more complex than that. He might have knew it somehow, deep inside himself. Knowing it but having it represed would be a good reason he objected to Rudolf remarring so fast, since he wanted to keep al the bonds posible with Asumu, since the biological one was inexistent

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 07:52:14 2009 No.2793344
File: 112 KB, 550x700, c16f0a4e3c7e54b04f160da2b491cd867a7c2843.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2793312

>Only after hentai becamed popular it was widely acepted to rape your daughter.

Really now. I'll have to thank my dad for abstaining.

I'm glad you thought it was relatively on target with what you were thinking, though I've got to question 'why Rudolf?' Why would Kinzo hand off the kid to Rudolf instead of Krauss? Krauss is an incompetent bastard, but Kinzo doesn't seem to have much more respect for Rudolf, and unless he had some specific agreement or understanding with Asumu, I can't see him giving away a precious child to Rudolf over Krauss for the means of rightful inheritance.

That being said, it's less of a stretch than the 'Nanjo faking a death and handing off the kid' theory, I just worked that in from some crackpot theory someone else made.

Still, thinking it through, I find it less stupid than I originally did, and all in all, it's reasonable enough. Certainly on par with my original 'Battler is some orphan Rudolf grabbed off the street after Asumu accidentally the whole original Battler' theory at the very least.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:08:14 2009 No.2793417

>>2793344
It would be strange if Krauss sudenly got a baby and said "Natsumi just has a fast uterus". Asumu's baby died, and either Rudolf/Asumu doesnt knows and kinzo eschanged babys, or Rudolf found that having someone that thinks he is your son beeing the head was more convinient than a dead baby, so he acepted.
So, why is he fitting over the inheritance? Since tehy belive Kinzo is dead, he is sure that he didn't anounced Battler as the next heir, since he had resigned from the Ushiromiya family. He might even think Krauss found out and is planning to kill hihm, so battler origins aren't found out.

Yet i think it has too many LOL PLOT TWIST!, so all this proabbly didn't happen. But it's not as ilogical as i tought i was...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:09:14 2009 No.2793424 >>2793344 Still nowhere near the "Jessica = Asumu's original child" theory, though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:13:14 2009 No.2793437 >>2793326 Now you're just completely bullshitting.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:22:14 2009 No.2793460
File: 236 KB, 535x812, 9d909a3ea833828b745437a81796ed202b0b641a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2793424

Damn that two-timing Rudolf, which cousin ISN'T his child? There's no way to prove Rosa didn't simply make up a story of a husband that abandoned her to cover for her incestuous relationship with Rudolf, that smooth bastard! After all, when have we ever heard anything about this father of Maria's?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:34:14 2009 No.2793508 I GOT IT GUYS Natsuhi is Kanon

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 08:36:14 2009 No.2793516 >>2793437 No no, in psychology thats called writting a book.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 10:02:14 2009 No.2793809

>>2793417
If Jessica were not Krauss's daughter (and there is some doubt. Eva brought it into question at some point... maybe in Episode 3?), chances are that she would have been 'born' during the summer. The family only comes to the island once a year, in October. So if Jessica were announced being born anywhere from May to early October, none of the siblings would have any real grounds to question her, since she'd have carried the baby to term entirely out of their sight. The only servants still working from that period are Genji and Kumasawa, who obviously are very keen on keeping the secrets they are entrusted with. Nanjo could have whipped up a phony birth certificate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 10:04:14 2009 No.2793818 >>2793809 Er, Natsuhi'd have carried Jessica to term. Kind of forgot to include her in that statement.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 10:54:14 2009 No.2794095 Well, what about Genji?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 11:12:14 2009 No.2794153 >>2793508 no no, you've got it wrong, if you look closer at the signs, it becomes apparant that Natsuhi is smallbombs

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 14:54:14 2009 No.2795199

So anyway... getting back to the main topic. Since we have 'confirmed' deaths for Jessica and Kanon, as well as the siblings besides Rosa, does that make the most suspicious parties Rosa herself, and Gohda? Genji and Kumasawa were probably accomplices of Kanon, but Shannon's loyalties are unknown.

The first twilight could have been carried out by pretty much any of the survivors, but Rosa, the cousins, and Shannon seem the most likely to have Maria's trust and be able to get her to lock the chapel (the door doesn't have an auto-lock. You need the key to lock it at the very least). Kanon might have been involved as well.

For the second twilight, if we assume Jessica and Kanon are co-conspirators, they might have had a falling out. If Jessica killed Kanon, hid him, and returned to her room to die/suicide, it would fit with the red. Gohda was also in the mansion at the time, so he could have attacked them and hid Kanon to create a suspect.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 14:56:14 2009 No.2795201 >>2795199 Just pointing out that most doors can be locked on the inside, assuming it's one of the cylinder door knob locks.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:04:14 2009 No.2795239

>>2795199
Interestingly enough, even though Kumasawa and Nanjo were the next to die, their bodies disappeared, only to turn up as the seventh and eighth twilights. Were they really dead at the time the other servants claimed? Or did they convince the rest of the servants to say that? The survivors had a very vague and confusing story about 'Kanon' appearing and attacking them. But his death was confirmed in red. So either the red can be beaten by conditions such as 'his identity as Kanon had died' or else they were lying. Or somehow fooled.

As for the fourth through sixth twilights... I see two possibilities. Either one of the people locked in the room killed the other two and then themself (Gohda stands out here again, the guy is pretty well built), or they were attacked in the hall by the killer, using the 'Stake shooting devise' and locked themselves in to escape, but died of their injuries.

And then we have the issue of the letters. The author seemed to have changed after the first, so who were they and how did they get Kinzo's ring? This new author seems to have had Maria's trust as well, as they also managed to send letters through her.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:06:14 2009 No.2795250 >>2795201 It has been implied that many of these doors cannot be locked without the keys. Or that, at the least, they need a key to be locked/unlocked from the outside. You can't lock them and then close the door. Maybe they have deadbolts.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:09:14 2009 No.2795261 >>2795250 While that may be true, it hasn't been explicitly in red so just pointing it out as an option. It's similar to the idea that the door to the chapel wasn't locked in the first place.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:10:14 2009 No.2795266 Just a quick question, who tried to open the door to the chapel in the first place?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:12:14 2009 No.2795274

>>2795239
I wouldn't trust a slight change in writing style as a sign that the author changed. We already know Beato is batshit insane not to mention moody. She might have just gotten more excited after the killing started and didn't have the composure or the time to write book of poetry.

On the contrary, the fact that they were all sealed by Kinzo's ring is concrete evidence that they were all written by the same person. Unless you can find a specific situation in which a character has motive to kill the original Beatrice and carry on in their place, thinking otherwise would be thinking with small bombs.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:14:14 2009 No.2795278 >>2795266 Rosa supposedly took the key from Maria's envelope and opened it. Battler's testimony says she was in the room in the morning, but he was too tired to know if she really took anything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:16:14 2009 No.2795283 >>2795239 ... Episode 2, looking back, is one of the most confusing. I can come up with decent theories regarding all the other episodes and flesh them out with motives and such, but Ep2 is still in the dark to me.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:32:14 2009 No.2795337

>>2795266
>>2795278
Re-reading the red, it was never stated clearly that the door to the chapel was locked. Implied, but if the door appeared to be shut, those that found it might not have actually attempted it.

>>2795261
In red: 'There is no device that can lock the door from the outside without the key'. 'Entry and exit is only possible from this door'. 'Entry and exit is impossible when the door is locked'. Oh, and for good measure: 'The window is locked from the inside'.

So even if you can lock it from the inside without a key, you aren't going to be leaving while that door is locked. So either Jessica locked it herself, or one of the other servants did, with the biggest suspect being Gohda.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:41:14 2009 No.2795369

>>2795337
I just reread the scene. The servants claim they tried to enter the chapel, but didn't have the key. That heavily implies that it was locked. Furthermore, if this was some trick on Rosa's part to be the first on the scene and claim it was locked when it wasn't, she's far too careless, leading the servants directly to the chapel and waiting on them to bring her there. They definitely had too many chances to check if it was locked. There must be some other way.

We can't discount the possibility that there's some trick to lock the door without the key. The red only says it's impossible to unlock without the key. Unless I missed something.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 15:46:14 2009 No.2795383

>>2795369

'As for locking the chapel, it's completely impossible with any key other than the chapel's!!'

The door could have been left open previously. All the killer/s had to do was go get Maria and lead her there to lock the door once they had everything set up. She doesn't even have to have looked inside. And the message on the wall was a little reward for her help.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 17:37:14 2009 No.2795794

After rereading the first interlude with the red text, I realize that it would also be useful to have a list of things Beatorice refused to say in red. Of course it doesn't give us anything definite since she has many times refused to say something only to say it later after Battler's been thrown off the path, but I think they could useful hints in any case.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 18:26:14 2009 No.2795938 >>2795283 The difficulty is first rate. The Witch intends to make you surrender with no warning.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 18:28:14 2009 No.2795946 >>2795794 While that would be useful, we'd need some more guidelines, like would we still record it if she later stated it in red. Also would probably be a ton of work.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 18:30:14 2009 No.2795952 >>2795283 >>2795938 I think that's part of the reason Beato skips over it at the end of episode 4. She passes it off as having nothing else to say about it, but most of her best work is there. At this point it's most likely her trump card.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 19:17:14 2009 No.2796096

>>2795946
Nothing a few comments and context couldn't handle, just like the red text. If she gives a reason for not saying it or why she couldn't say it is later revealed, or if it's eventaully confirmed in some way, just give it a sub bullet like the context info on the red text page.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 19:31:14 2009 No.2796137

>>2795952
Actually, I think that it's the weak point in her game. Her overwhelming offensive was probably to keep Battler (and us) from having some sort of revelation regarding what made this game differant from the first. Figurimg out what happened there will probably provide a big clue as to who the killers are, who is allied with whom, and maybe even clear up what determines what killers take action, or how the victims are determined.

Beato is almost certainly treading lightly around it. I mean hell how else could shit like 'small bombs' fly? Even if she wants to lose, that's too much. She's just letting Battler think whatever so she can avoid giving him a big hint.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 19:34:14 2009 No.2796152 >>2796137 I'll start rereading episode II, keeping that point in mind. Regarding that, I wonder if we've been approaching everything the wrong way.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 19:55:14 2009 No.2796241 File: 11 KB, 209x183, 1243269589374.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796152

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 19:59:14 2009 No.2796257 File: 6 KB, 230x200, 1244769530607.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796241

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 20:25:14 2009 No.2796348 File: 54 KB, 600x444, 2978933_m.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796257

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 20:29:14 2009 No.2796369

Don't really remember the order of things but what I do remember is that Rosa got a letter and the contents were never made available to the reader. Think she also went into Kinzo's study but that sounds wrong. I just remember the butterfly landed on her shoulder... unless I'm remembering stuff from the wrong game.

But if I am remembering things correctly, maybe the letter said something along the lines of "Kinzo is dead, confirm at the study. Congratulations, you get to be the new head." So somebody else organizes the event and uses Rosa for it? Perhaps she is instructed to lay out the ingots and kill the siblings.

Of course, a lot of that involves magic so whatever. Plus, the events are sort of foggy and I obviously don't remember everything. I'll go through again sometime probably.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 20:32:14 2009 No.2796380 >>2796369 I don't believe it is ever explicitly stated that Rosa entered the study.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 20:37:14 2009 No.2796396 >>2796380 In Ep.1 Natsuhi entered the study. In Ep.3 if i remember some of the parents entered the study. In Ep.4 piece Beatrice was there (In Ep.2 too, but that contained Fantasy so doesn't count). We cannot discard Rosa was there too in Ep.2

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 20:37:14 2009 No.2796398 >>2796380 I honestly don't remember the details well enough to even lay forth any claims like that. I'll play through again before I make another guess, but I might be able to pull something together with that line of thought.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:00:14 2009 No.2796492

>>2796380

Rosa did. Well, she says she did, we see her walking towards it, and she comes out with the rifle (comes back with Shannon and Genji too, IIRC...).

Rosa definitely found out that Kinzo wasn't alive. It would be strange if she didn't. It would also explain why she's so abusive to the servants all of a sudden (well beyond suspicion).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:04:14 2009 No.2796499 >>2796492 Ah, OK, can't remember much of episode two.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:04:14 2009 No.2796500

>>2796492
Forgot where exactly the guns came from.

If Kinzo is dead, who has his other key? In the first game I thought it suspicious the Genji had slipped it away from Kinzo's burned corpse without anyone noticing it.

Well, in the first place, was there ever any red confirming there are only two keys to Kinzo's study? Just trying to organize my thoughts here.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:06:14 2009 No.2796508 >>2796500 I believe Natsuhi in episode one, only said they were from his collection.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:08:14 2009 No.2796511 >>2796500 There's no evidence the other key even exists. We've only seen the one. They could just be saying that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:08:14 2009 No.2796514 >>2796511 Did Natsuhi ever return the key she was given to Genji?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:10:14 2009 No.2796517 >>2796511 I thought he gave both keys to Natsuhi in episode 1, and I'm pretty sure Battler was present there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:11:14 2009 No.2796521 >>2796517 Yeah you're right, forgot about the scene in the study.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:21:14 2009 No.2796565 Rereading through episode 1, Genji is very suspicious when they find they first Twilight. He has already left to return to the mansion, before Kanon opens the shed, yet he tells Nanjo about the situation without having seen it.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:34:14 2009 No.2796603

>>2792660
>Battler
>Battora
>Beatrice

Maybe one of the first letters of episode 1 or 2 is linked with the name thingie. (can't remember anymore)
I still think about, what the letter means which content:
"Praise my name!"

It's the shortest letter of all but I can't help myself as find it more suspicious.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:39:14 2009 No.2796623 >>2796565 What about the door covered in bloodstained hands? Jessica was the only person who knew Natsuhi had the pendant for avoid Beatrice

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:40:14 2009 No.2796626

Regarding who knows and does not know about Kinzo's death. Episode 1 seemed to make clear that Natsuhi has been aware of this, barring she went in and had some sort of episode and hallucinated the whole thing. I'm thinking that scene was some sort of flashback. Also, remember, she fervently denied the existance of Kinzo's gold, even though she was shown a part of it just the day before...

I don't think Rosa knew beforehand in Episode 2. There was no scene for when she went in, but given the circumstances, I'd say Genji took her up and showed her Kinzo's corpse. She came out with one of Kinzo's guns and a much more arrogant attitude. This might absolve her from suspicion in the killings, since the killer has posession of Kinzo's ring.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:41:14 2009 No.2796628 >>2796623 Not ruling out anyone else, just pointing it out.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:43:14 2009 No.2796633 >>2796623 maybe it was just coincidence

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:52:14 2009 No.2796658 >>2796565 He's also suspicious again, as he is the one to discover both phones and radios aren't working.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:56:14 2009 No.2796668

>>2796623
Anyone aware of the "mechanics" of "magic" could easily have looked at that pendant and known what it did.

Since we can assume the murderer is trying desperately to convince everyone that Beatrice is the murderer, all we need to do is flip that fucking chessboard over like a motherfucker.

Say you're a bad enough dude to 6 whole people in one night on purpose and you want people to think someone did it with magic. You're aware of the myths behind magic. For some strange reason, someone has a...woah what the fuck? An anti-magic charm to ward against evil? The fuck is this bullshit?

Do you:
A) Ignore it.
B) Do the same thing any witch would do, fail at getting past that silly pendant, but in a way that makes it obvious that you tried.

The blood on the door is evidence enough. Where else did we see blood? Nowhere. The blood served one purpose and one purpose only: to make it look like someone tried to get in the door, and failed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:57:14 2009 No.2796672 >>2796623 Natsuhi also knew Natsuhi had the pendant for avoid Beatrice

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:58:14 2009 No.2796677 They'll pull something stupid out their ass.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:59:14 2009 No.2796680 >>2796668 Natsuhi put it on the inside of the door, unless you mean they went in saw the pendant then left. There was also blood in the dining room, but that could be explained as that being the site of the killings.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 21:59:14 2009 No.2796681

>>2796626
In Episode 3, all that can really be said is that whoever carried out the killings knew Kinzo was dead and where he was hidden. Nanjo, Krauss and Natsuhi come to the top of the list. Jessica might also have known. One of the siblings might have taken the key from Genji and found him on their own, but in that case I doubt they'd be getting along with Krauss very well.

As for Episode 4, well... Either someone claimed the name of Kinzo, or his corpse was actually carried into the dining room. If someone had claimed the name, this begs the question of why they never did in previous games. If his corpse was brought down, then everyone was aware of his death but the survivors were coerced into lying about it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 22:01:14 2009 No.2796691 >>2796672 And Natsuhi didn't have an alibi, since she was supposedely sleeping in her room.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 22:01:14 2009 No.2796692 File: 12 KB, 265x167, wtfmaria.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796672 >Natsuhi also knew Natsuhi had the pendant

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 22:54:14 2009 No.2796916

>>2796396
As a fan of the Jessica=Beatrice theory, I'm forced to point out what the guy who came up with the really really detailed version of the theory picked up on: piece Beatrice was NOT in Kinzo's study, she was on the second floor balcony (which in the theory = Jessica's room).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:02:14 2009 No.2796960 >>2796668 All Umineko threads, at the end, should have a summary written up by this guy

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:19:14 2009 No.2797027 File: 27 KB, 513x290, 1245180043763-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796916 WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT A BALCONY?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:25:14 2009 No.2797064 >>2797027 What I meant was she is on the second floor, and his study, which we're supposed to believe she came out of, is on the third.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:31:14 2009 No.2797082 >>2797064 since when did the mansion have three floooors?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:31:14 2009 No.2797085 >>2797082 Since always?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:40:14 2009 No.2797126 File: 70 KB, 362x262, small bombs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2796960 No, the summary should be written by this guy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:43:14 2009 No.2797138 >>2797126 That would work a lot better if you changed the file name...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:45:14 2009 No.2797146 File: 92 KB, 209x183, jessica.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2797138 OK.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:49:14 2009 No.2797165 >>2797146 That picture happened to load slowly, which made it much much better. I like it...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 23:52:14 2009 No.2797184 File: 368 KB, 418x366, eva.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2797165 >happened to

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:37:14 2009 No.2798923 posting to test new bump settings

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:38:14 2009 No.2798925 >>2798923 I believe you can bump the thread as long as you haven't posted in it already.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:44:14 2009 No.2798940

>>2798923

Well well, we may as well throw some more things out there then, shall we?

Maria shows her notebook to Rosa, all the magic circles of the first episode are drawn in there, and in a style that Rosa recognizes as not Maria's, "due to the strength of the strokes, the thickness of the lines, how clean the shape was... Someone older than Maria wrote them."

It seems like that is relatively conclusive proof that Maria really is meeting 'someone' on the island at every yearly conference. While the scene isn't exactly beyond reproach, I feel like the observation of the notebook is viable enough, and that Rosa is familiar enough with her daughter to realize that something is not her daughter's work.

Is Piece-Beato real? Does Maria meet up with a possessed servant every year, or a possessed Jessica? (Maria very clearly separates 'Jessica onee-chan' from Beatrice, so I'm really thinking that Jessica would have to present herself as possessed to pass it off to Maria)

That bumping thing is weird.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:53:14 2009 No.2798960

Moving on... The beginning of episode 2 has some interesting little tidbits. This scene between Natsuhi and Krauss before the other siblings arrive is particularly interesting.

Natsuhi:
>"......I'll finish all the preperations, so you can devote yourself to the family conference. ...I'll handle all of them."
Krauss?:
>".......Sorry. .....Will there be any problems, ....with Father?"
Natsuhi?:
>"No. ....Genji and Doctor Nanjo are on our side. ...I'll never allow those greedy siblings to meet Father."

And then we see this next one... When the siblings are gathered for lunch, Nanjo seems to defer to Natsuhi before talking about Kinzo's condition. He doesn't want to answer about whether he's bedridden or not until after Natsuhi makes her claim about it being ridiculous.

Natsuhi definitely grows more suspicious for the events of episode 1. Though motive remains an extremely questionable to pinning it down on Kanon/Nanjo/Genji/Natsuhi. Every murder is easily accomplished if you put those four on the same page, perhaps even removing Genji, though I think the least possible offending Genji is doing is being a bystander rather than a resister.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:55:14 2009 No.2798966 >>2798960 Natsuhi has been suspicious since episode 1 and episode 4 basically cemented her as at least an accomplice of some sort. Which is a shame, I liked her during episode 1, but she's pretty much guilty there.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 07:57:14 2009 No.2798969

>>2798960
>>2798940

Hm, I can bump it twice in a row. Anyways, interesting stuff, though it can all be discounted as outside Battler's POV or the red.

As I'm making a decent amount of grammar errors (and probably logic errors as well), I'll be going to sleep now. Hope to see some more batshit retarded theories later.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:01:14 2009 No.2798987

>>2798966

But what is her purpose of supporting these things? Nanjo I can write off as Kinzo bribing with money and a guarantee of survival. He's been shown to care for his kids/grandkids, and procuring a ton of money for them would probably be to his interest. That and possibly extortion/blackmailing, if you think Nanjo's of high moral fiber.

Kanon/Genji I can see as simply carrying out the ritual under Kinzo's orders, to the point of killing themselves at the end of it. Now, Kanon is often portrayed as rebellious to the witch, but that's always in his own perspective. He's hardly ever warm or nice to anyone else, and that seems to be contained to him getting murdered and being a fucking ghost, neither of which happened how you see them.

As for Natsuhi... Writing her off as a suspect either puts her character in a seriously odd position, or she's in on it with Krauss. But then why the hell would Krauss be killed for the first twilight of the first episode?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:04:14 2009 No.2798993 >Which is a shame Personally, I'd prefer it if she was a mass-murderer than the doormat she's been for most of the other episodes.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:10:14 2009 No.2799008

>>2798987
Only thing I have for motive is that Natsuhi was essentially forced into marrying into the family for unknown reasons and at first she supposedly didn't like that. But then she quickly killed that line of thinking and said something like "no, I must forget that." I mean, it's just speculation and it wasn't from Battler's POV or in red but it's there and it's all I've got to work with. Maybe I missed something else, but I think a motive can be made from that.

>>2798993
Ah, well, I liked the way she was presented in episode 1 and I'd be fine with her being more active in the other episodes (actually, I like her more than the other mothers based on her ep1 performance) but I don't really wanna replace what she did in episode 1 with being the crazy inheritance-craving culprit. And yet there it is, she seems so obvious to me. Maybe I'm being misled.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:18:14 2009 No.2799028

>>2799008

Given episode 2's little tidbits at the start, I'd think it's safe to say that Natsuhi has known from before the start of the games that Kinzo is dead. Sadly enough, they pretty much throws out my little assumption that Genji had basically told her the morning of the 5th in episode 1 that Kinzo was dead by leaving a letter for her when she went up there or something.

In any case... You've got to ask the 'why' here. Why would Natsuhi join in on the killings of Krauss and the rest? It doesn't fit her character, always preening about the glory of the Ushiromiya's, and I like to believe she genuinely cares about Jessica. Going from that angle, why would she keep Kinzo's status a secret? Genji and Nanjo certainly know, and they are certainly accessories to murder, but does Natsuhi keep it secret for some other reason? Is she that desperate in trying to keep Krauss' name clean from abusing his late father's fortune without distributing the inheritance? I'd like to think her freakouts could indicate that she's that dedicated to him.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:22:14 2009 No.2799045

>>2799028

Oh right forgot to mention, Kumasawa is a gossiping little bastard. She's always hanging around overhearing things, thinking 'oh my, how depressing, all I can do is walk off and go tell Genji about it', so I never really put TOO much stock on only Jessica/Natsuhi knowing about the keyholder.

The theory about the killer having a basic understanding of magic works as well, walk in the room to take Natsuhi out, sees the keychain, thinks 'oh this is convenient', scribbles some blood on the door, takes off.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:44:14 2009 No.2799099

>>2799028
It certainly seems inconsistent with her character and yet I can't shake the feeling that she's guilty.

Well, I don't know. Let's change gears a bit. Say she spills the beans on Kinzo's death - what then? The siblings start some shit, their family's power is removed and maybe they're under suspect for accessories to murder or at least hiding a death which I'm sure is illegal. She probably can't go back to her birth family, and I doubt any of the fine Ushiromiya clan would take her in. So she's sort of forced into holding that secret. I'd like to think there's more to it, like wanting to protect Jessica's future as well, but that's probably the core of the answer.

Now once we throw Krauss's murder into the mix, things start getting fishy. A theory like 'revenge against the Ushiromiya family I was shackled to' coupled with another award winning Ushiromiya Female Acting Performance constantly chiming in about the pride the family should have could explain it all but that seems rather cheap. Plus I don't like the implications that raises about her caring for Jessica's well-being unless Krauss was secretly an abusive ass or something.

It could also have something to do with the factor that decides the twilights, ie perhaps whoever finds out Kinzo's dead first and what instructions are left to them. I don't think the primary killer of each game would think to follow the epitaph to carry out the murders. They're probably receiving some form of instruction, perhaps Kinzo's will. Although why they would go along with it and the deciding factor of who gets to be the murderer eludes me still.

I'm kind of tired and that may not have made much sense. I went backwards a lot and some sentences may be garbled. I apologize.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 08:46:14 2009 No.2799104 tl;dr

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 12:14:14 2009 No.2799998

At best, Natsuhi was aware of Kinzo's death but was not conspiring with the killer/s. At worst, she was conspiring, and might have had a hand in the first twilight. She has alibis for all the rest of the killings, including her own.

If she was complicit with the killer, that brings up some questions. Which servants were also aiding the killer, and which was doing the killings? Kanon is the most obvious suspect for being the killer. Nanjo is certainly an accomplice, and Genji would certainly know about Kinzo, so he's got to be in on it as well.

My biggest problem with saying Natsuhi was involved with the killings is the fact that none of the killings really NEED her to be involved. Kanon doesn't have an alibi, and as determined earlier, Nanjo could have helped him fake his death, giving him free run of the place. There is plenty of opportunity for Kanon to kill the servants in the parlor, and leave a letter to lure out Natsuhi, tying up all the loose ends. The cousins are left till the end, though I don't know if he killed them or if something else happened (the large bomb theory).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 13:16:14 2009 No.2800388 Has anyone confirmed asumu's death?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 14:56:14 2009 No.2801008 >>2800388 Not in red, but since Rudolf remarried, she's at least legally dead.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 14:58:14 2009 No.2801019 >>2800388 So, Beato is Battler's mother?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:01:14 2009 No.2801047 Like that other anon poster earlier in the thread, Genji did act very suspiciously when he told Nanjo about the First Twilight without having seen what was in the shed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:17:14 2009 No.2801141 >>2801019 Yup. Beatrice and Kinzo's son. Remember when Maria met Battler? When Rosa said he was Rudolph's son, she said "the brother is a son?".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:19:14 2009 No.2801148 >>2801141 Say what.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:24:14 2009 No.2801171 File: 63 KB, 642x503, brother.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2801148

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:25:14 2009 No.2801179 >>2801171 That's just Maria being a dumbass as usual.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:31:14 2009 No.2801206 >>2801179 That's just what she wants you to think. That scene also mentions how Battler and Rudolph act more like a pair of brothers than father and son.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:36:14 2009 No.2801236 >>2801179 Maria knows everything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:55:14 2009 No.2801318 Have there been any George = killer theories?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:56:14 2009 No.2801327 File: 106 KB, 640x345, bigboss.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] In Episode 1 Natsuhi died to CQC.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 15:57:14 2009 No.2801331 >>2801318 Episode 2 says maybe. George left the room on the night of the first twilight.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 16:03:14 2009 No.2801350 >>2801171 Maria calls Battler "onii-chan" because they're cousins. It's just a bad translation on the witch hunt's part.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 16:08:14 2009 No.2801370 >>2801350 Even rosa tells her to call him oniichan. It's completely normal.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 16:10:14 2009 No.2801375 >>2801331 and killed shanon. That's some great acting he's been doing.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 16:40:14 2009 No.2801499

Could Battler be the new Kinzo named by the epitaph? Would this change the number of people? Also this would give many people a motive to kill other people.
Why was there no epitaph in ep 4? It being solved in the previous episode should not change the game.

金蔵(Kinzo)

蔵(possession; ownership)
- My?
金(metaphor for (most) valuable)
- Beloved('s)?

Kinzo could be my beloved? Tell me if I'm being an idiot here. I've been playing with rikaichan and the family names.

Battler's father is the hometown. Rudolf being his place of origin.

Kyrie being the only one with the river kanji in her name.

Maria, second Beatrice, having village in her name.

"My beloved (Kinzo's) hometown(father), the sweetfish river(Kyrie) running
through it. You who see the Golden Land(Kuwadorian, those who know of Kuwadorian?), follow
this path downstream and seek the key.(Question Kyrie and Rudolf?)

If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. (Maria is the only one with village in her name, Kinzo was upset about child Maria's name.) [one way of spelling Maria is 魔里亞, 魔 according to rikaichan is someone who habitually commits negative acts, could this be Second Beatrice's true name? Most characters seem to have names with a kanji that defines something about them.]
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.(The two tell you that Battler is not their child, not sure about the shore part.)
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land." (The key to who he has chosen as his heir, that being Battler? The only son he feels is worthy? Battler being new Kinzo, but whos Kinzo is Battler?)

Just finished reading ep 4 and my thoughts are slowly coming together. Thought I'd throw it out there.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 17:15:14 2009 No.2801604

>>2801499
This would also make leaving the family and not solving the epitaph Battler's sin, and the murders due to him.

It could be why he is "the guest of honor" at this meeting. The relatives have a plan to rob him and one another of the inheritance through murder. It creates multiple culprits but doesn't explain the stakings or following of the ritual.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 18:47:14 2009 No.2801943

>>2799998

Really, I've always questioned Natsuhi's death in episode 1. How would the killer guarantee she would see the letter and read it before the cousins? It makes more sense if she was an accomplice, as she doesn't care about Maria, she'd probably walk up and check Nanjo or Genji, and find a letter, and the letter would have a lot more to talk about if she was in on it. Again though, if she wasn't an accomplice, but had her suspicions about Nanjo/Genji/Maria (and maybe even Kumasawa), it'd give her plenty of motive to A. check the corpses before asking Maria, and B. set up the incident in the study, which was always a bit suspect.

Though... I just went back and read the part in the parlor, up through the 8th Twilight. The only one to see Natsuhi reading a letter was Maria. Did Beatrice tell Maria to say that? I can't really imagine why, something had to prompt Natsuhi to leave the room and lock them in, and a letter is as viable a reason as any, I suppose. The thing is, the letter isn't found. The letter existing at all is in question. It's reasonable enough to assume the letter was there, said something about killing all of them if Natsuhi didn't leave, and she went with it, locking them in for their own safety, with 'Beatrice' simply taking the letter off her corpse after she was killed.

>>2801499

I dunno, it's a bit of a stretch to say the epitaph would use circular logic to have Battler's origin be identified via already knowing that Battler is a key component.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 18:49:14 2009 No.2801949

>>2801943

Moving on with the Natsuhi reasoning because the post was too long...

Still, Maria's the only one that even saw the letter, and it was never found, so its very existence is questionable at this point. Maria's always been the deliverer of these letters, and a letter in that situation simply left lying there is too careless to guarantee Natsuhi would be the one to find it. Unless the letter said something not specifically addressed to Natsuhi like the 'duel' originally had me assume, I can't imagine the letter being a message for her, it's too careless. If it said something like 'The ceremony is nearly complete, I will resurrect in front of my portrait,' I can imagine Natsuhi might react like she did, trying to lock the children in the parlor and running off to confront 'the witch'.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:04:14 2009 No.2802011

>>2801949

Oh right, and to wrap this thread up...

>#Natsuhi was killed by another person!
># The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!

Yet, when they find Natsuhi, there's smoke coming from her gun. She fired. They only heard one gunshot. Naturally, Battler at the time assumed she had shot herself.

Did the culprit and Natsuhi fire at the same time? There's certainly no way Natsuhi fired after the culprit, given that she was shot in the head. This seems to point out that the culprit has a silenced gun, which is quite possible, given the text,

>"On Natsuhi oba-san's forehead, ...it was almost as though a sparkling shard of pigeon's blood ruby had been set there."

It was definitely not the large caliber gun that has seen extensive use in episode 4. And POTENTIALLY in episode 1, though there's never enough description to assume that this was how the people were killed, the only hint that might suggest this is the tea party where Battler likens Shannon's re-death to a 'pomegranate exploding'. To be honest, it's either the same gun seen in episode 4, or a smaller, silenced firearm, and the extensive damage done to their faces was to cover up the firearm damage to make it seem more 'witch-like'. That or as I'd originally assumed, the people had been drugged. As for Eva and Hideyoshi, it becomes a lot easier to drive a stake through their skull (ridiculous as it is for someone like Kanon to be able to get it in their unaided, though a hammer is still plenty viable) once there's already a bullet hole there, again hiding that it was a shooting crime.

... Still, did Natsuhi hit the culprit? It's not like anything directly contradicts this, only that she didn't kill the culprit immediately, she could've even hit him/her in the chest and led to an eventual death.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:10:14 2009 No.2802045

>>2802011
They heard one gunshot because they fired at the same time. After all, it is said that Natsuhi challenged the culprit to a duel. In reality, it was probably Natsuhi seeing someone who wasn't one of the children and firing on them at the same time they fired on her. She missed because she's inexperienced, the culprit hit. Same shot, both shoot, one dies.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:21:14 2009 No.2802111

>>2802045

Is there something suspicious about a silenced firearm, though? Or anything to support that they fired at the same time? We know practically nothing about the situation.

A silenced firearm would make a lot of sense. The first twilight had 7 people in the mansion. If we assume Natsuhi wasn't the culprit, and wasn't aiding the culprits, then things get a bit difficult. From what we seem to know, there were three parties that had to be killed. The four in the dining room, Shannon checking windows, and Gohda in the servants' room. My original theory of drugs followed by intense physical violence to the face still works fine. But what doesn't work very well is a large caliber firearm. It's too loud, firing on any of the three parties would most likely alert the other two, on top of probably waking Natsuhi, who would investigate or call the police or something. It still works if you assume Genji/Kanon just told everyone to come to the dining room for an announcement by Kinzo, locked the doors, and went to town, but that is still questionable as to the possibility of awaking Natsuhi.

Moving on to the second twilight. It's stated pretty forcefully that getting a stake cleanly into a skull like that is no feat of human strength. You would have to use a mallet, which probably wouldn't be so pretty, or as in Kyrie's case for episode 4, have the stake go into a pre-existing bullet hole. Again, a gun shot would be suspicious and could very probably alert those also in the mansion. So we have drugs and staking being one possibility, because I think any wounds that would take down Eva would be pretty apparent/alert Hideyoshi, considering Eva was a martial artist, I don't believe it'd be possible for Genji/Kanon to incapacitate her short of weapons/drugging.

I talk too much, to be continued next post.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:25:14 2009 No.2802129 >>2802111 Silencers don't completely mask the sound. They lower it by around 30 decibels. Problem is a gunshot usually fires at 140 decibels, so it's still very loud.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:27:14 2009 No.2802139

>>2802111 cont.

Then moving on... Kanon we can discount as suspicious, and Kinzo was already dead, so that takes care of the 4th and 5th, but the 6th through 8th Twilights... Would Maria lie about not hearing anything? A large caliber gunshot is too damn loud, and while Kinzo could easily have soundproofed his damn study making it unhearable to that group, I don't believe it's in Maria's character to just straight up lie about hearing nothing. And singing does not cover TOO much. So unless Genji was actively helping culprit X (most likely Kanon), it's too unlikely to say that anything short of a firearm could take down Nanjo/Kumasawa/Genji with that little sound, unless we assume Kanon is a MASTER OF MARTIAL ARTS STAKE THROWING.

So, explaining these with a silenced gun... First twilight is easy, take down Shannon and Gohda, deliver drinks to the dining area, and surprise everyone with the gun, or hell, drug them, doesn't matter. Second twilight, knock on the door, say "Excuse me, it's Kanon, and I have your dinner." Hideyoshi's in the shower, so Eva walks over and opens the door, Kanon shoots her directly in the forehead, being so close and looking through the chain. Kanon cuts the chain, Hideyoshi still being unaware due to the noise of the shower. Kanon walks into the bathroom, Hideyoshi cowers, he gets nice and close and shoots him between the eyes. Kanon drives the stakes into the holes left by the gun, drags Eva to the bed, closes and locks the door, later pretends to cut the chain.

Everything's pretty easy with the existence of a silenced firearm, and it largely can help to narrow down the suspect list, as Kanon delivering drinks would be relatively suspect and not guaranteed to get all the siblings in the dining room drugged for the first twilight.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:30:14 2009 No.2802155

>>2802129

Hm, true enough. Which narrows the theory a bit. It'd have to be a gun we haven't seen, much like the large caliber firearm supposed in episode 4. Something relatively small and quiet by nature, with a silencer attached, so most likely a small-ish pistol. Really though, picking up the casings and making the scene clean enough... I am assigning WAY too much credit to Kanon's ability.

I've got it. Kanon = James Bond 007

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:31:14 2009 No.2802164

>>2802111
>>2802111
>>2802045

Stop complicating things like this.
What happened was most likely this: the culprit simply exchanged his gun with Natsuhi's.
That's all.

Why did he/she did this?
Well it could be to make it seem that she fired?
If she didn't fire, that mean that she was taken by surprise (doubtful seeing how she died) or that the one who killed her was someone she knew and trusted.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:34:14 2009 No.2802182

>>2802164

Who the hell would she trust that could possibly still be alive? Kanon is like the only person left aside from the cousins (possibly), and Nanjo was assisting. I think it's reading too far to think that she was an accomplice to the extent that she'd planned with Kanon to kill Nanjo and wouldn't see it possible that he'd kill her too.

I do have to give you the gun exchange thing though, I don't know why I didn't think of that incredibly simple solution, it's been shown there's multiple of those guns she's packing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:38:14 2009 No.2802199 >>2802182 >>Who the hell would she trust that could possibly still be alive? That's the question, but if you flip the chessboard it's one of the thing that this situation imply.

Anonymous Sat Jun 20 19:59:14 2009 No.2802333

>>2802199

The perpetrator's point of view is based completely on whether or not Natsuhi was ever assisting or not. If she was, easy to lure her out there and take her by surprise, just leave a letter right next to Nanjo, and the cousins would surely be distracted by Maria in the corner and Natsuhi would find the letter first.

If she's not assisting... It's up in the air, the letter would probably say something about how the witch would be coming soon and something about the portrait, which would inspire Natsuhi to run off like that. There would be no guarantee Natsuhi would find the letter first at all. And then the event in the hall becomes questionable, how would the culprit get such a perfect shot to the head? You can't say the killer walked up to guarantee the shot, but a carefully aimed shot was probably involved. So it's possible the killer was just hiding and aiming a gun at her, took the shot, ran out and exchanged guns, then went back into hiding until the cousins got there. Then... Presented him/herself? That part's just weird, and I don't like to put too much thought into it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 20 20:02:49 2009 No.2802348 OP here. I found a far superior site: http://www.UnonTalk.com/ (Unon = Anon) jhgdyhkdnffdiggjhikgggyogggjfhdjyggoyisggfdfghyfi

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