So, all you non-fantasy fags around here, who is/are the culprit(s)? It's been 4 games already, some people should have some good ideas.

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Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:52:33 2009 No.2789956 [Reply] [Original]

So, all you non-fantasy fags around here, who is/are the culprit(s)?
It's been 4 games already, some people should have some good ideas.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:53:33 2009 No.2789959 Kanon + Shannon + Krauss.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:53:33 2009 No.2789960 Different in different chapters. I know Kumasawa is the hannin in the first chapter.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:54:33 2009 No.2789967 >>2789960 But 34 said in red that Chiyo-chan is not a murderer

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:55:33 2009 No.2789969 Gohda, he put the small bombs in the mackerels.

>>	Anonymous ‮^_^ ‪‪‪‬ ‪‬ ‭‬ !Jones4ZrPA Thu Jun 18 15:55:33 2009 No.2789970 The servants, under the direction of one of the parents.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:55:33 2009 No.2789972 Jessica is the one managing everything in every games. Rosa is an accomplice for sure in episode 2, same for Eva in episode 3. Shannon is probably working for her too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:56:33 2009 No.2789979 File: 689 KB, 1751x2500, 1206280280235.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Maria and all the Servants

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:56:33 2009 No.2789982 red line

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:56:33 2009 No.2789984 IMO, Kanon is an accomplice most of the time or he doesn't exist at all.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:56:33 2009 No.2789987 >>2789967 I don't know who that is, but he's probably lying.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:57:33 2009 No.2789991 >>2789984 Kanon probably exists, but I think he died just before the whole thing.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 15:59:33 2009 No.2790003

Seriously, what's with Battler? All he's doing is making shitty attempts to prove each situation 'wasn't done by magic' when it would make more sense to figure out the culprit.

Also, have there been any good theories in response to the early Witch Tea Parties where you get told that Beatrice has made several screw ups that would help explain things?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:00:33 2009 No.2790005 >>2789972 Physically similar to Beatrice. Alternate life at school. Hates the inheritance problem. Never seen together with the witch in Ep. 2.

>>	Anonymous of Austria Thu Jun 18 16:01:33 2009 No.2790013 Natsuhi, Genji, Kanon

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:02:33 2009 No.2790022 Kyrie and Jessica. Seriously.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:04:33 2009 No.2790029 Jessica is never confirmed dead in red.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:09:33 2009 No.2790071 >>2789972 Jessica died at the second twilight of the second game. Rosa kept the master keys within her supervision all-time. And she had the fucking gun. Eva only killed Battler in the third game. Yes, Shannon is probably an accessory

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:16:33 2009 No.2790110 >>2790071 >>Jessica died at the second twilight of the second game. Not confirmed in red though. Rosa being an accomplice in the second game is the only way I see to resolve the closed room of the chapel, and it just makes sense given the way she acts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:21:33 2009 No.2790137 The doctor is always an accomplice.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:21:33 2009 No.2790138 At all times: Krauss, Natsuhi, all 5 servants, and Nanjo are suspicious. In Ep 2, Rosa was as well, and in Ep 3, as was Eva. Jessica and Kyrie's strange contact with Battler puts them under suspicion for Ep 4, too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 16:41:33 2009 No.2790221 The women of the Uroshimiya family have a history of schizophrenia, look at Maria, Eva and Ange. Jessica is the same, her second personality is Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:00:33 2009 No.2790285 Jessica is the mastermind and Battler gets killed by Typhoon Beatrice due to a small bomb flying into his mouth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:04:47 2009 No.2790297 Stop spamming us, you dumb niggers: http://www.AnjnTalk.com/ (replace "j" with "o") hodkyghhyhgg

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:19:33 2009 No.2790352 Jessica is most likely the real mastermind simply because she is the only one among the childre who never really got in the spotlight. Except for her crappy crush on Kanon. All her development will come by the end, like Takano.

>>	MolesterJim Thu Jun 18 17:21:33 2009 No.2790362 Why the fuck does Rudolf tell you 'I'm going to die'? This has bugged me ever since. The fucker knows something.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:28:33 2009 No.2790380

>Jessica is most likely the real mastermind simply because she is the only one among the childre who never really got in the spotlight.

Neither does George. We know absolutely nothing about his past, and the only thing we really know about the present is that he's willing to forsake his entire family to be with Shannon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:28:33 2009 No.2790381 >>2790362 >Why the fuck does Rudolf tell you 'I'm going to die'? Since his body is faceless it's possible he did it solely to trick you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:30:33 2009 No.2790387 >>2790381 Recheck red text.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:33:33 2009 No.2790397 >>2790381 No red text in ep 1. If you're talking about ep 4 I'm not at a point where they've talked about that yet. Or am I mixing things up and it's not in ep 1 he said that?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:34:33 2009 No.2790400 >>2790387 No red text in the first game, and Battler doesn't say anything about that in the fourth game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:35:33 2009 No.2790403 >>2790397 >>2790400 [Regarding unidentifiable corpses, their identity is now assured!] - red.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:37:33 2009 No.2790406 This is off topic, but anybody knows why the Beatrice in the real world wears different set of clothes?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:38:33 2009 No.2790409 >>2790403 That doesn't help. He could've died way after the first twilight.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:40:33 2009 No.2790419 >>2790406 It's implied that (Meta-)Beatrice, Golden Endless Witch, and Piece Beatrice on Rokkenjima are actually two separate existences. Most heavily by them TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

Lacuna !k4IsHiAtus Thu Jun 18 17:40:33 2009 No.2790422

>>2790409
I think you're misreading it. Beatrice guarantees the identities of all corpses - she does not guarantee that everybody dies at some point or other. Because Battler at the time suspected that one of the corpses with a completely smashed face might have been a body double, Beatrice guarantees their identities. The corpse with the smashed face wearing Rudolf's clothes is indeed Rudolf.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:40:33 2009 No.2790423

It always bugged me that Jessica mentions that George is dead to Battler in ep4.
How the fuck would she know this when they're in completely different locations?

I suppose a/the killer could have told her that he was killed or being killed but that seems kind of pointless.

Either way, this suggests that either there are multiple killers, the killer was a freaking marathon runner as Jessica and George were supposed to be fucked up around the same time or Jessica is pulling some bullshit and called from some other location than her room and took the phone off the hook in her room later.
Why she would do something like that then be found dead in her room later anyway is another mystery.

Unless the red disproves any of this, I don't remember all of it.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:41:33 2009 No.2790424

In every game, before the conference starts, the adults come to the conclusion that the only way to settle the dispute is by killing off everyone in the way. They set up the game of the first twilight to determine the last one standing. The whole Beatrice story is a cover they came up with together. The winner has to kill everyone else on the island before the typhoon ends, which usually ends with a double kill with Battler, leaving everyone dead. Eva is the only one that successfully pulled it off. Game 3 is different because Shannon interrupted the first twilight and called the other servants, so they were dealt with first. When Beatrice says Battler is "alone", it simply means he has no allies.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:43:33 2009 No.2790433 >>2790423 There is no proof that they were killed at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:45:33 2009 No.2790439 >>2790422 Does she do that only for the first twilight or for all unidentifiable corpses?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:46:33 2009 No.2790445 Quotation from red text should be literal. "Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!"

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:48:33 2009 No.2790450 File: 49 KB, 640x480, 1243829182066.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2790424 I like it

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:49:33 2009 No.2790457 >>2790423 Jessica's death isn't confirmed in red though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:49:33 2009 No.2790459 >>2790439 All unidentifiable corpses.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:50:33 2009 No.2790465 >>2790445 Doesn't actually answers my question because it lacks context. Is it for all corpses or a specific twilight?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:51:33 2009 No.2790467 >>2790457 "When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room."

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:51:33 2009 No.2790468 >>2790362 Remember he wanted a Family Talk. My theory is that he was going to tell Battler and Kyrie about the fact that Battler wasn't Asumu's son. So he wasn't really thinking he would die, but that they would be extremely upset.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:51:33 2009 No.2790478 >>2790450 A lot of people seem to like the BS I make up on the spot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:53:33 2009 No.2790486 >>2790465 Yes, because it first was stated about 6-8th twilight and Lambda quoted it for the first twilight.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:54:33 2009 No.2790488

>>2790467
What Beatrice says after that is even more interesting, "[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included "
Isn't that weird that she has to say this too?
And don't forget that this is a translation, "corpse" could be "body" or something, in which case it wouldn't be wrong.
Anyways there is no "Jessica is dead" in red in the game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:54:33 2009 No.2790489 >>2790457 Battler found her later in her room dead and everyone was killed in a way that they can all be identified without having to resort to the red. She doesn't need confirmation in red, she is dead.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:55:33 2009 No.2790494

Replaying Episodes 1-3 before I go to 4. In Episode 2 Beatrice while refering to keys in the servant's room said

>[Those are] kept in the key box in center of the servants' room

She makes another statement like it however she never defined included what those were and seemed to create a very vauge image of what was really in the box. If you guess that she was misleading you then the murders in the servants room and possibly Natushi's room become solvable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:56:33 2009 No.2790498 >>2790489 So that mean that there is no culprit since they all are identified as being dead one way or another, right? It could be a trick, Battler is no doctor nor was he in a completely normal state.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:56:33 2009 No.2790500 >>2790488 > And don't forget that this is a translation, "corpse" could be "body" or something, in which case it wouldn't be wrong. In the original text, it was "朱志香の死体". It literally means "Jessica's dead body".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:58:33 2009 No.2790506 >>2790489 How would he know she is dead? SHE COULD BE FAKING!

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 17:58:33 2009 No.2790507

>>2790468
In that case, does he expect that Battler's the one who will <hyperbole>kill</hyperbole> him? Or is it Kyrie?

I can understand Battler being mad, but it seems strange that he would tell him beforehand.

As I see it, there are two possible situations: Kyrie knows, or Kyrie doesn't know. If she knows, then Battler is probably the child she willingly gave to Rudolf to replace Asumu's stillborn, for the sake of having a successor. If she doesn't know, the Rudolf pulled off some crazy ninja hax and switched them without either knowing, which seems a bit too cunning for him.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:04:33 2009 No.2790533 >>2790468 How does the sentence "I'm probably going to die tonight" relate to that sort of thing at all?

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:05:33 2009 No.2790540

>>2790506
She's faking a pool of blood with half her head missing with a steak sticking out of her head?
I believe that's how it was anyway.

>>2790498
If you're going to use that logic then you need to explain episodes one and two first as theirs no survivors in those either.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:06:33 2009 No.2790543 >>2790533 He probably meant figuratively when Battler found out he would "kill" him for being dishonest. I don't think that's the case however.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:07:33 2009 No.2790546 >>2790540 Special effect, you never saw a horror movie? And don't believe the ending credits.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:08:33 2009 No.2790548 Genji, Shannon, Kanon in the first, second, and fourth games Eva in the 3rd game

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:08:33 2009 No.2790552 >>2790540 >theirs no survivors in those either I've been wondering. How do we actually know that there are no survivors in the other episodes?

>>	KSDev Thu Jun 18 18:12:33 2009 No.2790562 QUALITY

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:12:33 2009 No.2790568 >>2790552 Ending credits, the same that keep saying Kinzo died during this twilight and such even though it's been proved that Kinzo died far before.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:13:33 2009 No.2790571 >>2790552 The only person in the first episode that we know was dead and confirmed by an outside source was Maria with her jaw missing. Other than those there is not any way to know who was really alive or dead, other than what Nanjo told us.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:16:33 2009 No.2790581 >>2790571 >confirmed by an outside source was Maria with her jaw missing Was this ever confirmed in red? Where did you read this?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:16:33 2009 No.2790583 >>2790571 >The only person in the first episode that we know was dead and confirmed by an outside source was Maria with her jaw missing That's questionable, since the ending game results are known to lie.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:17:33 2009 No.2790588 >>2790581 The world of 1998.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:18:33 2009 No.2790590 >>2790588 The world said it? Be more specific. I can't remember anyone saying that.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:20:33 2009 No.2790597 >>2790588 Also, the only 1998 we've seen is that of episode 3. We haven't seen anything of episode 1's future.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:21:33 2009 No.2790601 >>2790590 Ending of the first episode The police gave a jaw found at the crime scene which matched the dental records for Maria. It's at the very end.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:22:33 2009 No.2790606

>>2790590
>>2790597
Yeah, I got mixed up. Shit, it was in the Episode 1 ending, where the supposedly omniscient narrator describes how they were able to identify Maria from her jaw using her dental records. Also mentioned the diary page that described her wishing that someone would solve the mystery.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:28:33 2009 No.2790625 >>the ending game results are known to lie. How so?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:28:33 2009 No.2790627 >>2790568 "Twilight" doesn't refer to a time of death, but the time the bodies are found.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:28:33 2009 No.2790629

Even if the ending credits are false on things like kinzo dying on whatever twilight, it is still a fact that kinzo is dead.
We also know that the whole ritual is bullshit in the first place as ep4 makes painfully obvious.
Everyone had part of their head blown off but not so much so that they could still be identified, which was very obviously intentional, with a steak either in their head or lying next to them.
But this does not follow the epitaph at all.

So the ending credits being slightly fudged does not magically bring person A or B who you are trying to shoehorn into the culprits seat back to live.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:29:33 2009 No.2790637 >>2790601 >>2790606 If you've read episode 4, you would know by now that the credits are full of shit. And Maria didn't write that. "Beatrice" did. If you haven't read episode 4, then stop reading Umineko threads or you'll be spoiled.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:30:33 2009 No.2790644 >>2790627 No, it refers to when they were killed. "Killed on the _____ twilight". Go check the credits yourself, they're in the music box.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:40:33 2009 No.2790690 >>2790637 You are confused credits with witch's record and Maria's letter.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:41:33 2009 No.2790694 >>2790644 No, it doesn't refer to when they were killed.

>>	insanezero !VUNofZD8jM Thu Jun 18 18:43:33 2009 No.2790702 >>2790644 Twilights don't have to correspond with time of deaths.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:49:33 2009 No.2790728

>>2790637
So because the credits are wrong for one person, they're wrong completely? And Episode 1 is a special case, especially the aftermath. Beatrice hasn't begun to screw with Meta-Battler's perception of the game. It's safe to assume that the credits for Episode 1 aren't lying and that the police arrive on October 6th, find everyone dead, find Maria's jaw, and find the diary page.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:49:33 2009 No.2790729 The Siesta Sisters planned everything.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:52:33 2009 No.2790733 In other words, the killer hasn't followed the epitaph correctly. In the first place, the epitaph says "gouge it and kill" but the killer often kills and then gouges.

(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 18:54:33 2009 No.2790740
File: 357 KB, 640x481, 名称未設定.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2790690
Was there a "Maria's letter" outside of the credits and Episode 3's 1998? Do you have a screencap? I can't remember that.

>>2790694
>>2790702
I'm not talking about specific times on a clock. It does refer to when they were killed, not when the bodies were found.

>>2790728
>So because the credits are wrong for one person, they're wrong completely?

That is generally how evidence becomes void, yes. Nothing said in the credits can be taken as true anymore.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:57:33 2009 No.2790746 >>2790733 "and" does not necessarily imply sequential order.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:58:33 2009 No.2790749

>>2790740
>It does refer to when they were killed, not when the bodies were found.
Episode 2, scene in Natsuhi's bedroom. Gohda is killed first and dies on the 5th twilight. George and Shannon die at roughly the same time. George dies on the 6th twilight, Shannon dies at the 4th twilight.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 18:59:33 2009 No.2790752 >>2790746 But he/she sometimes didn't even gouge.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:01:33 2009 No.2790762 >>2790740 I can't find your stance and speculations, because all you have said is "it hasn't been confirmed." What do you believe and what do you think?

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:06:33 2009 No.2790769 >>2790749 Yeah and in every episode, Kinzo dies at least a year before the start of the game. It doesn't refer to either when they were killed in reality or when the bodies were found. It's the order that we're being made to believe they were killed.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:07:33 2009 No.2790773 >>2790762 I'm an empiricist.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:07:33 2009 No.2790774 File: 23 KB, 480x360, zzzzz.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] NO PORN HUH? SUCKS TO BE A FAGGOT

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:10:33 2009 No.2790783 >>2790773 It explains nothing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:11:33 2009 No.2790785 File: 83 KB, 670x480, 1244735801895.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2790774 Oh, Anon. I get enough porn from the doujins that I don't need it in the actual game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:11:33 2009 No.2790789 >>2790769 > Kinzo dies at least a year before the start of the game. Hey empiricist, when was it stated?

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:13:33 2009 No.2790794 >>2790789 It was stated in red that he is dead at the start of every game in episode 4. It's possible that he died a minute before the start of the game though, sure, if that's what you're getting at.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:13:33 2009 No.2790795 >>2790769 So that was his corpse we saw? Hurr durr

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:14:32 2009 No.2790800 >>2790783 It means that I don't believe anything until I'm given prove, but I'm content to sit here and pull apart any half-assed theories from people chasing after Ryukishi07's red herrings.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:14:33 2009 No.2790798 >>2790794 And why do you believe red text?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:20:33 2009 No.2790813 >>2790794 It might just be Beatrice thinking he's dead, which would be a truth for her but is actually not

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:20:33 2009 No.2790814 >>2790795 I don't know, was it? It's kind of hard to recognise someone when they've decomposed and been burned. >>2790798 Fine, I'm a "soft" empiricist. Are you happy now?

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:21:33 2009 No.2790815 >>2790798 Also, I don't fully believe it anyway. I get the feeling that the things in red are only true from the point of view of the person saying them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:21:33 2009 No.2790816 >>2790798 Because it's all we have right now. If we throw out the red text, anything is possible. I don't think Ryukishi would have brought in the whole red text thing if it was really all bullshit anyway.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:24:33 2009 No.2790821 >>2790816 Not all bullshit, but the whole "personal truth" bit does give more space for eventual twists

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:27:33 2009 No.2790833 Umineko seems to be an even bigger mindfuck than Higurashi.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:27:33 2009 No.2790834 >>2790815 Then why couldn't Battler say he was born from Asumu? He believes it, it's true for him.

>>	(″･ิ_･ิ)っ-̾ Thu Jun 18 19:29:33 2009 No.2790844 >>2790834 >He believes it Does he?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 19:30:33 2009 No.2790852 >>2790834 That might be one of the things Piece-Battler knows that Meta-Battler doesn't.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:03:33 2009 No.2791446

Starting from Episode 1, let's recall what was said in red. "Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers!" "The identity of all unidentifiable corpses is guaranteed. No body-double tricks are possible." "When Kanon was killed, everyone on the island has an alibi. This includes both the living and dead! Kanon didn't commit suicide. Kanon didn't die in an accident."

Going off memory here, but I think that covers it.

So what can we deduce from this? Let's remove the victims of the first and second twilights from the table for now. Then remove Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo. That's 11 suspects down. By what has been said in red, we have no real confirmation that Kanon ever died. Remember, when Kumasawa found him, he had already 'pulled out' the stake. If we assume Nanjo is aiding the culprit, Kanon could have easily faked his death. This makes him very highly suspiscious. If we assume the other servants may have covered for him, he doesn't have an alibi for ANY murders. Looking at things as a whole, it's hard to suspect anyone else unless we add in mystery person X.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:07:33 2009 No.2791474 File: 205 KB, 530x770, brainwasher.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You are the culprit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:10:33 2009 No.2791489 >>2791446 So it was never said "Kanon was dead when they found him the boiler room"? Just "When Kanon was killed, everyone on the island has an alibi"? Well, there's our loophole. Nanjo's an accomplice.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:18:33 2009 No.2791516

I really don't like the Jessica = Beatrice theory.

First of all, Evatrice contradicts it in episode 3 (unless Jessica doesn't actually kill anyone, just plans it) and episode 1, Battler meets the piece Beatrice with Jessica in the same room. Not only that but she dies at least 3 times (episode 1 her corpse is never found).

Not only that, it seems like a cheap theory only used because Jessica looks like Beatrice (lol hair colors). It's still very possible that she'll turn out to be the true culprit, but I would like it much more if game Beatrice is actually a separate entity all together.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:22:33 2009 No.2791530

>>2791489
Good catch. Kanon's death was never confirmed in red.

Also the statements "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" and "Kanon did not die in an accident!" pretty much shows that he could the killer of Nanjo and the other 2 servants, along with Natsuhi's killer.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:25:33 2009 No.2791537

I have a little pet theory for episode 1... The only people who HAVE to be suspicious are Kanon and Nanjo. Likely others include Genji and Kumasawa. Natsuhi is... An odd factor, given how she either believes she met Kinzo in the study the morning of the 5th, or lies about him being there.

>>2790571

It's my belief that Kanon is 'the witch' that Maria runs up to, and Battler is confronting him. As to how they all got turned into a bloodbath... A not so small bomb behind the portrait of the witch. It's understandable to think that would pretty much destroy them all to the point of it being pretty lucky they even found something to identify Maria. As to Kanon...

>>2791446

This is pretty much what I think. Kumasawa follows Kanon in, and only finds him in a pool of blood with a bloody stake near him. No mention is ever made of a hole in his chest, etc. Nanjo and Genji (I believe) carry him to the servant's room for treatment, where he 'dies', with a spectacular spurt of blood on Nanjo's shirt (dramatics are fun).

Given how Kanon/Genji are really the only possible culprits for the second twilight, what with cutting the chain and killing them, moving their corpses around and the like inside the room, then 'finding' them and bringing back the chain and Kumasawa to corroborate that Kanon had to cut his way into the room. Or Kumasawa could be in on it as well, it's been my suspicion that the 4 parents in the dining room were drugged and then murdered, and moved to the shed with a wheelbarrow, and the only person that could deliver drinks to them, Gohda, and Shannon with no suspicion would probably be her. Kanon would get a lot of 'what are you doing here', same with Genji, and would pop at least a little suspicion out, even if it's not completely unthinkable.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:31:33 2009 No.2791558

>>2791537

Moving on... Kanon is now completely free to move wherever the fuck he wants, Maria was instructed beforehand to place the letter in the closed room to divide the group, and was clever enough to pull it off (Nanjo/whatever other accomplices probably weren't told of this beforehand). The phone and the second page of the letter was set up to lure the other 4 out after Kanon had put down Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji, and then he leaves a letter for Natsuhi luring her out by herself. Though really, that's a BIG logic gap, as there's no way he could guarantee she'd pick it up and read it without the others knowing and be able to separate herself from them.

He kills Natsuhi (with his own gun) while hiding in the shadows, and confronts Battler/gang, only to blow the whole damn place to bits with the aforementioned not-so-small bomb. And yes the bomb is completely unfounded beside the place being mentioned as a gorefest.

As to motives... I'd like to think it's Kinzo, he leaves the ring to Genji/Kanon and perhaps Shannon, who was killed for dissenting, and pretty much prepares them to do their own little ritual suicide to resurrect Beatrice, or maybe just end his pitiful lineage. Kanon's motivations are never really shown much in reliable scenes, and Genji is the most loyal bastard on the planet, so even if it's just them and Nanjo, all of it is very possible. Nanjo was roped in by being a really, really good friend of Kinzo's, or maybe just with money and a guarantee of his safety, who knows.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:31:33 2009 No.2791559

>>2791530
Always remember that there's more than two ways to die. Look at it like a truth table; within certain truths there are other truths of which one is necessary.

Either Kanon is dead or Kanon is alive.
If Kanon is dead, he was either killed, in an accident, or died naturally.
If Kanon was killed, either he killed himself or someone else killed him.

We have ruled out the possibility that he was killed and the possibility that he was in an accident. This leaves the possibility that he died naturally or is still alive.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:35:33 2009 No.2791573

>>2791559
However, we can't be sure that this is a play on words. Kanon pulled the stake our himself, and supposedly died of blood loss. Since he was not killed instantly and instead partially caused his own death, this might not be considered "homicide" but instead "attempted homicide". With this, Kanon was not killed by another, nor did he completely kill himself. Distribution of blame. In this way the red text can get around the fact that he has died an unnatural death.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:36:33 2009 No.2791576

>>2791558

Oh right, forgot to mention. Genji's never really a NECESSARY accomplice, but I like to think he is, because the 6th through 8th twilights become rather difficult without him there. If him and Nanjo and Kumasawa attempted to gang up on Kanon when he threatened them, I'm sure they'd at least be able to do something, but if you have 2 on 1 with a gun and surprise on his side, it's pretty easy to give it to Kanon. And going further and giving Genji's complete support, then it's two servants vs. two of the elderly, and that's just a cake-walk.

The biggest gaps I see with this are an incomplete look at the aftermath, as it's never really confirmed whether the police found Kanon in the servant's room or not, and Natsuhi. What the hell did she see in the morning in Kinzo's study? Did Eva even place the receipt there, or was she bullshitting just to place suspicion on Natsuhi, since Eva probably suspects Kinzo's been dead anyways? Did Natsuhi know before the events that Kinzo was dead and was hiding it along with Krauss, or was she (and possibly Krauss) in the dark, and Genji gave her the key and left a message of some variety in the room? Something like 'you are the heir of the Ushiromiya family, and I leave all the assets to you, but you must never tell of my death, wear the Eagle in your heart' or something silly like that?

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:40:33 2009 No.2791596

Why would Kanon even go along with any of this?
He grimaces at any mention of Beatrice
He doesn't have the LOYALTY that Genji has and even gets pissed at the family for chastising Shannon
He has a half recognizable love interest in 3/4 eps
He seems to have more anti-motivation than motivation

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:43:33 2009 No.2791607

>>2791596

Yet pretty much all of it is outside of any reputable perspective.

Hell, if we wanna go pseudo-fantasy, we can just say he's possessed by the damn witch. Not necessarily the Beatrice meta-Battler is hanging out with, but the one Kinzo loved or something.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:45:33 2009 No.2791613 >>2791596 None of the scenes in which he expresses interest in Jessica can be considered to have definitely happened. Hardly anything can be proven about episode 4 and in episode 3 he met her as a fucking ghost.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:45:33 2009 No.2791615 >>2791559 When I see the word "killed" I think of someone dying according to another's will. I wonder if the Japanese is specific in that "he died" or "he was killed by another"

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:46:33 2009 No.2791618 >>2791596 He does idolize Genji and there's the whole "silly furniture you can't have emotions" deal.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:47:33 2009 No.2791623

>>2791596
Motive is pretty impossible to nail down for any of this so far. The only people who clearly have a motive are the parents, but often they're the ones who are the easiest to nail down that they're not the killers.

I don't suspect we'll know the true motive behind any of this until the answer chapters when we learn more back story about 6 years ago and Battler's sin.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:48:33 2009 No.2791626 We still have to find out if someone remembers events of the previous game like Rika did.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:48:33 2009 No.2791629 >>2791613 Do we know for certain that Jessica died in the parlor rather than the servants quarters? If she died in the parlor, it means that someone definitely guided her there.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:49:33 2009 No.2791632 >>2791613 Are scenes shown before Oct. 4th considered to be untrue? I always assumed that since they're shown outside of the game they were all truth, and merely back story being shown to the reader, not just Beatrice playing with Battler's head.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:50:33 2009 No.2791635

>>2791629

It's not like it's impossible she managed to walk there herself after hearing Nanjo pleading for his damn life and getting shot. This is the house she grew up in, after all. It's not too unrealistic to believe she couldn't get over there unaided.

Who knows though, maybe the killer guided her over after doing Nanjo in, I heard a theory that it was George at one point that didn't seem too horribly unlikely.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:51:33 2009 No.2791640 >>2791626 Although it's a stretch, Shanon/Kanon might because of their conversation in episode 4. But that's really messy since because of what was going on.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:51:33 2009 No.2791642

>>2790852
If you're going to separate piece Battler and meta Battler and go with Asumu being his actual mother, it's easier to say that meta Battler was not born, being a soul or whatever. However, he definitely believes he is Ushiromiya Asumu's son. His reaction to not being able to say it should be proof enough.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:51:33 2009 No.2791647 >>2791626 Kannon and Shannon.

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:52:33 2009 No.2791649

>>2791632

Like Kanon/Shannon talking to and having arguments with Beatrice? I think they are for the most part true, but you have to take them with a grain of salt. For one, I don't trust much that deals with Beatrice in ghost form, given... Well, you know.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:52:33 2009 No.2791650 >>2791626 Kinzo (or "Kinzo") does.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:54:33 2009 No.2791656 >>2791632 I consider anything that happens before the typhoon to be true, but that doesn't change the state of Kanon's relationship with Jessica. In the flashbacks he flat out rejected her.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:54:33 2009 No.2791659 >>2791649 Ahh yeah, they do have those. They might be just talking to themselves, or possibly it's piece Beatrice.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:55:33 2009 No.2791661 >>2791656 He's just tsuntsun.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:57:33 2009 No.2791672 >>2791661 And no deredere, since we can't prove he ever changed his mind.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:58:33 2009 No.2791675 >>2791672 If he did go to her school festival (which I believe he did), that's showing a bit of his deredere side.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 22:59:33 2009 No.2791682 >>2791675 He did that because Shanon asked him to.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 23:00:33 2009 No.2791684 >>2791682 "I-It's not like he wanted to go or anything... stupid anonymous..."

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 23:08:33 2009 No.2791728

>>2791446
Plenty of people have brought out some valid arguments regarding the theory that Jessica was the Beatrice that was behind most of the letters. I think she is behind at least some of them. The number of people who could have pulled off tricking Maria like they did is small. And the letters in Episode 1 kept a consistant tone, making me believe they were all by the same author. Thus, only the final letter that only Natsuhi read may have had a differant author. Jessica was in contact with both Maria and Kanon, and presumably had the trust of both. Since letters were being delivered up to the end, including the letter delivered in the study, whoever was making them and passing them along to Maria and the killer must have been among the group that was left behind. Remember, the people being sent out were the next victims. Maria needed to be sent out as well in order to lure out those that remained.

And who was both the loudest proponent of kicking out the 4? And then the first to begin regretting it? Jessica. If we assume she gave the letter to Maria, some careful maneuvering could have allowed suspicion to fall upon the remaining servants. Maria draws suspicion on her own by drawing attention to the letter. The killing of the cousins could be taken as a doublecross by Kanon, or all of them may not have been killed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 23:14:33 2009 No.2791762 >>2791635 Maybe Kanon did guide her to the room. Ghost-Kanon did tell Jessica not to touch him.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 18 23:14:33 2009 No.2791765 So is Beatrice a typhoon or not?

Anonymous Thu Jun 18 23:40:33 2009 No.2791885

>>2791728

While I do like the concept of Jessica manipulating the events of Kinzo's study, I'm not so fond of Jessica being the perpetrator of the whole of episode 1. It's not to say that she's the person putting forward all the killings, but a 'why' and a 'how'. How would she get Nanjo on her side to go along with Kanon's faked death? In this scenario, does she have anything to do with Nanjo lying about Kinzo's status?

I'd argue the point about the number of people fooling Maria into thinking they were Beatrice as well, Maria ADORES witches. The thought that a witch could possess a servant is probably pretty believable to her, as they play along with her belief in the witch pretty heavily, like in the scene where they all argue with Battler about the witch's existence. Again, following the hole-filled theory I have with Kanon/Nanjo being the main culprits, Kanon could just pop out, claim to be Beatrice, and make sure that nobody (including 'Kanon') can know that she's possessing Kanon, for whatever reason Kanon might be clever enough to make up.

Or who knows, maybe she got a 'letter from the witch' telling her to acknowledge Kanon as Beatrice's furniture, and to listen to him. There's a lot of possibility contained in Maria's strong belief in witches.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:18:33 2009 No.2792024

>>2791885

Hm, I just thought of one thing that supports Jessica being a perpetrator in episode 1. Natsuhi's door. Unless you count Natsuhi as a perpetrator, or just assume person X was watching their exchange, then only Jessica and Natsuhi knew that Natsuhi would have the scorpion keyholder on her door.

That event furthered the belief that the culprit was a witch, since Natsuhi wasn't one of the six killed. Still, I find Jessica's motivations a little weak. Being disgusted with the inheritance problem and getting tired of her parents whining at her about grades instead of being good parents seems to fall quite a bit short of 'time to murder everyone'. Unless there's some hidden 'Kinzo thought she was Beatrice' or something, I can't put her as the culprit or an accomplice in my head.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:27:33 2009 No.2792051 >>2791765 Beatrice is a small bomb.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:31:33 2009 No.2792067 >>2792051 sage for whining, but what the fuck. I put forth an idea that reasonably uses not so small bombs and nobody bats an eyelash? Godamnit.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:33:33 2009 No.2792076

>>2792024
By Beatrices's own words, the crimes are connected to his 'sin' six years ago, that sin is related to Rokkenjima, and does not seem to be against Beatrice herself. If Battler somehow did something incredibly hurtful to Jessica, even if he doesn't realize it, she might have felt she lost her last ally and friend in the family. They WERE the closest among the cousins, being the same age after all. Jessica might have decided 'If Battler doesn't apologize I don't need this family anymore' or something to that effect. I mean hell, this is Kinzo's family. A lot of things run deep in the Ushiromiya blood, but sanity is not one of them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:37:33 2009 No.2792085 >>2792076 Hm, reasonable enough, and it fits with the only real clue we have as to how Battler was 6 years ago. She'd have to be an extremely cold and crafty bitch to pull all of that off though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:40:33 2009 No.2792095 >>2792076 I was thinking that since Battler is the only male son of a male Ushiromiya, this meant that he was higher ranked then Jessica. Maybe he didn't like that, and decided to leave the family, forcing Jessica to be the next one in line.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:42:33 2009 No.2792107

>>2792076
Jessica's unfailing LOLOLOL response to hearing about Battler six years ago (and Battler talking about how he wants to forget all about it) doesn't fit the idea of the sin being against her, IMO, especially contrasted with how 'Beatrice' reacted when Battler said he didn't remember.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:42:33 2009 No.2792111 Kanon, Shannon, and Genji are all robots. Kinzo isn't dead, Beatrice exists, and Juuza is her accomplice. I call it the "I'm a Fucking Genius Theory".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:44:33 2009 No.2792117 >>2792111 ...I wouldn't put it past Grandfather.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:48:33 2009 No.2792134

I like the "Kanon is working alone against the culprit" theory a lot more than "Kanon is the culprit" theory. Kanon being the culprit feels way too easy, somehow, and it doesn't seem like Ryukishi's style to build him up as a very sympathetic character and then have that all be fake with him being a cold-blooded murderer.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:49:33 2009 No.2792140

>>2792107

Like I said up in a post above, I don't think it's likely, and to be true, Jessica would have to be the coldest bitch imaginable, on top of being an amazing actor, only really dropping the facade at the end of episode 4 for a moment when talking to Battler, checking one last time to see if he really didn't remember or think it was even worth remembering.

And even then, how the hell would she go back inside, and blow her own damn head off instead of just killing Battler and taking off? Did she break down at some point and lose the desire to remove herself from the family, and just change it to removing herself from life?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:50:33 2009 No.2792141

While I don't think she's the only culprit, Jessica is almost certainly involved somehow. At the very least, I believe she's the one who poses as "Beatrice" for some of the people who claim to see her.

At some point, Maria befriended someone she came to know as "Beatrice". That person even wrote in Maria's diary/grimoire, and had a style of handwriting that was very distinctly different from Maria's.

After the incident on the island, those messages in bottles were found, providing detailed-yet-contradictory accounts of the events, and were signed by someone claiming to be Ushiromiya Maria. From Ange's investigations in 1998, it is determined that the writing on those messages are the same as the writing of "Beatrice" in Maria's book.

Those envelopes that were sent to (presumably) each of the surviving relatives of the victims also had a letter which had writing matching that of "Beatrice" in Maria's book.

While the time those message bottles were made and sent out is uncertain, the envelopes to the survivors were definitely sent out prior to the family meeting, as evidenced by the postmark. Considering the amount of time it would have taken to write up those message bottles, it can perhaps also be assumed they were also prepared before the actual murders took place. Meaning, of course, whoever wrote those letters and also wrote in Maria's book had at least some part in the planning of the murders that were to unfold.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:51:33 2009 No.2792145

The question then is, who was Maria playing with, who was her "Beatrice"? Assuming they were meeting in secret whenever she visited, especially during the family conference, then it almost certainly couldn't be one of the adults, and as the servants change, it's also unlikely to be Shannon since there is no guarantee whether she'll be there when Maria is or not.

So, if we eliminate the adults and servants, that means it must be one of the children. Assuming that the Beatrice of the painting looks enough like the "Beatrice" that Maria knows to be recognizable to her, then on top of the people we can automatically dismiss as possible suspects (Battler and Ange) then that just leaves George and Jessica. And, really, while it's possible that it's George and he just somehow manages to look really, REALLY good in drag, Jessica seems like the much more logical fit.

Not only would dressing up to resemble the witch Beatrice be easier for her than someone like George, but it would be far easier for her to be able to meet with Maria whenever she visited than it would be for George. While the relatives might occasionally visit at times other than the meeting, it's unlikely that there would be more than one coming to call at the same time, meaning the times Maria could play with "Beatrice" would be limited and uncertain outside of the family meetings. If whoever was posing as "Beatrice" already lived on the island, however, then Maria could meet her any time she visited.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:51:33 2009 No.2792152

>>2792107
Laughter could be a coping mechanism. Or she could be laughing for an entirely differant reason: She's laughing at Battler's cluelessness. Or she might even be laughing derisively at herself, for thinking Battler would remember.

I wouldn't count her off just because she didn't get all SERIOUS BUSINESS suddenly during that conversation. 'Beatrice' seems very intent on Battler remembering his own crime. And remember, Jessica was the one who kept that conversation going forward in the first place.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:53:33 2009 No.2792161 i guys i just finished the ep 4 small bombs ... now i understand congrats battler everyone laughed the TEA PARTY in EP4 was excellent too

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:56:33 2009 No.2792180

>>2792152
This still doesn't work for me. Think about 'Beatrice's' reaction when Battler said: "I don't remember anything." She was surprised/disappointed, pretty much completely gave up and went into total despair. In the scene where they're talking about Battler six years ago? Battler basically says he doesn't really remember what he said, it was all meaningless crap and he just wants to forget about it. Jessica LOLs. It doesn't fit at all.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:56:33 2009 No.2792182

>>2792134

That theory seemingly works against Jessica=Beatrice AND Kanon=Shannon, unless there's some weird reason Kanon would imitate Shannon that ISN'T a bad scheme of some kind.

To put it more practically... Who else could be responsible for half of episode 1's killings? To believe Kanon is actually working against the killers, you've got to make some bold assumptions, such as mysterious person X, which is another hard to prove theory largely including Kanon AGAIN. How could the closed room of game 1's second twilight work without him? Is the closed room invalid by way of welding? Mysterious person X could definitely knock on the door, stick a bolt cutter in when they do, cut the chain, kill Eva, go in the bathroom, kill Hideyoshi, drag Eva onto the bed, leave, and weld the door shut.

But why? Why the fuck would the killer weld the chain when that would actually be pretty obvious looking to anyone not being a fucking idiot and cutting the chain without looking? Kanon DID mention it being strangely easy, but I think that's more to him just not having done something like that before.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 00:59:33 2009 No.2792198

>>2792182
"Kanon is working against the killers" doesn't mean he never killed anyone in any of the games, or never faked his death. Think about Rosa in Episode 2, who turned on basically everyone and threatened the servants and Battler when she became convinced they were wolves. I could definitely see Kanon investigating on his own, coming to his own conclusions, and taking misguided action.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:02:33 2009 No.2792211

>>2792141

I've got to ask, do you (or anyone) happen to have a screencap of the part saying the letters containing the bank keys was in "Beatrice's" handwriting?

Because other than that, I really can write off the odd handwriting and the message bottles as Maria being completely delusional and inventing a Beatrice persona (and yes, I have seen the 'MARIA - MASTER OF FORGERY' thing before, but it's DIFFERENT handwriting, not familiar handwriting she's emulating masterfully), or possibly being told to write the bottle messages, and it's just her kihihihihi handwriting. Ange does mention that the entries get darker, though I don't believe she mentioned the handwriting changing, so that's probably out.

I do so wish we had the contents of the message bottles, it's not really clear what perspective was taken on the murders, and given that we're not just shown them, or even snippets, I've got to think it probably wasn't Maria writing them in a normal state of mind.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:05:33 2009 No.2792223

>>2792141
I have a hard time thinking that, if the post-murder investigations (looked into by Ange) were able to determine that Maria's handwriting didn't match the writing of the bottles, that they also didn't check the bottle writing against everyone else they knew to be on that island.

That, and the "oh Jessica looks like Beatrice" basis seems so silly to me. There's a portrait of Beatrice hanging right there in the middle of the mansion; the legend of Beatrice has been going around for a long time, 'Beatrice' is going around claiming to be killing everyone and making contact with Maria and everyone is trying to protect themselves and figure out the culprit--and not one, ever, are any of the characters struck with the fact that 'hey, Jessica would definitely be a passable Beatrice'?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:07:33 2009 No.2792231

About Battler's "sin", is it possible that whatever he did wasn't something to someone, but to someTHING?

Think about the murders. Their entire set-up, at least as far as the first three episodes go, appears to revolve around the Epitaph, with a condition supposedly existing that basically says that the murders will stop if anyone solves it and finds the gold

What if whatever Battler somehow had an effect that made it so that as it was written, the Epitaph COULDN'T be solved? If nobody solves it, the killing continues until the "witch" is revived and everyone is dead. Perhaps some clue, something the Epitaph points to, winds up no longer being where it's supposed to be because of Battler, and since that vital clue is no longer there, nobody can solve the riddle like they're meant to.

In short:
Batter's sin = The reason everyone dies
The reason everyone dies = Nobody solves the Epitaph
Thus:
Battler's sin = Nobody solving the Epitaph

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:07:33 2009 No.2792234

>>2792211
We do have the ending of Episode 1, where we see the last bit, where 'Maria' notes that she will probably be dead by the time the note is read and implores the readers to find the truth. This doesn't match Maria's attitude in the games even a little bit. Noting that Ange didn't notice Maria's handwriting changing as the entries got darker is a good observation, too.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:08:33 2009 No.2792240

>>2792198

Hm, I suppose you could say he was misguided and killed Eva/Hideyoshi, maybe even with the help of Genji. And hell, maybe he wasn't misguided, there's nothing to say they didn't perpetrate the 1st Twilight, Eva's a complete bitch who would leave Natsuhi alive just to gloat that the inheritance would be hers.

And going by MYSTERIOUS CULPRIT X arriving after the first twilight, it all fits together for the first episode.

I still think that's bullshit and that he's a killer, though. Even if it's through some ridiculous 'he was possessed by Kinzo's dick ghost' or something. Well, maybe not that, but whatever.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:11:33 2009 No.2792249 In Ep2 did they ever mention the contents of Beatrice's letter which was given to Rosa?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:15:33 2009 No.2792265

>>2792234

Hm, that's completely true. The snippet at the end doesn't fit with Maria's normal personality, her kihihihihi personality, or any possibility for a made up 'Beatrice'. I suppose if you assume that episode 1 didn't END right there (if it's not a fucking witch, then Battler has a gun pointed at the culprit, while the culprit is just standing there), then Maria would have time to change her view about the whole thing and throw the message bottle out there.

... But, I'm thinking that probably didn't happen. I still like the idea that there is a HUGE BOMB behind the painting that blows them all to bits, it covers the inconsistency of Battler having a loaded firearm pointed at the culprit and still being ripped to shreds pretty well.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:19:33 2009 No.2792279 File: 76 KB, 649x572, confirm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>I've got to ask, do you (or anyone) happen to have a screencap of the part saying the letters containing the bank keys was in "Beatrice's" handwriting? Right here.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:19:33 2009 No.2792281

>>2792265
We don't know that Battler was ripped to shreds, though. From the description of the room in the epilogue afterwards probably most of the kids got slaughtered, but the only one confirmed to be dead there is Maria.

Given Battler's total hysteria and the fact that he's the one with the gun, I kind of lean to the theory that Battler went nuts and killed everyone there, and then ran off someone else on the island (and maybe still got himself killed?)

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:20:33 2009 No.2792285

Oh right... Another thought. Kinzo got upset at Rosa for naming her child Maria. It's been put forward that that was because of the epitaph, and that the character for village was too damn close to it.

Would that be a hint that his weird naming sense goes towards the epitaph? Battler mentioned that his (and everyone in the Ushiromiya family) name is made up of traditional kanji like a normal name, but just using their normal pronunciation to form a western name. Is it possible that the siblings' names contain kanji that are hints to the epitaph?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:23:33 2009 No.2792292

>>2792285
The epitaph didn't go up until two years ago, and I think it's a little bit of a stretch that Kinzo would have had it developed enough seven years in advance to be pissy at Rosa about naming her daughter Maria. I lean towards the theory that the third "Beatrice"'s name? Is also Maria, explaining the bottled letters too.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:24:33 2009 No.2792298

>>2792279

Ah, thank you. Suppose the 'alternate Maria Beatrice' theory is getting more and more unlikely. I mean, thus far you've got to assume that someone just knows she writes a 'Beatrice' persona like that and forced (asked?) her to write those letters, maybe even the message bottle. But that's basically coming down to the same damn thing, just splitting hairs on if she knew someone that wrote down things as a 'Beatrice' in her notebook.

>>2792281

Why would he go crazy and kill everyone else? Also, I was under the impression there were enough remains there to account for 3-5 people, and a bomb of that magnitude would be a decent way to make them THAT unidentifiable, to the point that they considered it lucky to find a piece of Maria's jaw that they could test.

... I suppose if everyone there started jabbering about how the witch was real like in the damn Tea Party, Battler might snap and do that, but I don't think that's the case.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:25:33 2009 No.2792302

>>2792134
The theory of Kanon fighting against the murderers actually brings up a good point. Pretty much anyone and everyone has died at some point early on in the game (exception Battler, but since it was stated in red that he isn't the killer in one murder in episode 3, there's at least one other person killing. That, and whoever wants to break Battler needs to keep him alive, because there is some connection between the two).

Someone working against the murderer would answer the question "Why the fuck has everyone died at least once in the first twilight?". And it would work effectively too, because competition between murderers would yield far more similar results (Kyrie dying early on, because you kill the fucking cop first when you're about to kill more than zero people in one night).

I do think that someone, probably Maria, is adjusting crime scenes (specifically, the stakes) but even then, she's died early a few times. We do know that Maria is messing with the magic circles, since when she dies they kind of stop, so she's trying somewhat to have everyone accept the witch.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:30:33 2009 No.2792312

>>2792298
Battler was pretty much completely losing it at the end of the episode; screaming "I'm going to live! I'm definitely going to live!" and firing the gun at the 'Beatrice' who appeared, disregarding how close Maria was. It's not a theory I'm really firm on, more of a 'he had the gun and he was losing it, hmmm' conjecture, but if Battler somehow became convinced that George and Jessica (the epilogue/game result notes they 'prostrated themselves before the witch', and Battler didn't) along with Maria were now allies of the witch, welp.

To me, the wording of the scene description was deliberately vague enough that there's room to believe that one of the kids didn't die at the end and the police just weren't able to tell in the mess of gore.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:31:33 2009 No.2792314

>>2792292

I was sort of thinking from the angle that he had gotten the epitaph from someone else, probably the original Beatrice, and had just put it up 2 years ago. Still, not exactly founded by any means.

Also, are you positing that the 'Maria' writing those letters was thinking she'd be found dead, but wasn't actually? Or that she was being intentionally misleading?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:32:33 2009 No.2792316 >>2792285 I have kind of suspected that the 'gouge and kill' might mean actually knocking parts out of existing Kanji to make new ones. Not being too knowledgable about Kanji though, that's just a guess.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:34:33 2009 No.2792322

>>2792312

I think it's a bit of a stretch that he would lose it to the point of ripping everyone there into such indistinguishable shreds and then taking off. I mean, being unable to identify a corpse says a LOT, even for 1986, unless the damn corpse was burned thoroughly and had its teeth removed. Unless Battler shot them, cut them up, and burned the chunks and smashed their faces to bits, I don't think that he could've done that.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:34:33 2009 No.2792323

>>2792314
If I had to guess, yeah, I think the 'Maria' writing the letters believed she would be dead. What would make the most sense to me--and this is almost totally conjecture--is if the 'bulk' of the message bottles were written before the killings started, and that last bit with 'please find the truth' was added later as they were sent out, since the idea of 'find the truth' renders her providing a detailed account of what supposedly happened pointless.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:35:33 2009 No.2792325 >>2792316 That would fit in with the whole "play on words" angle in episode three.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:36:33 2009 No.2792329

>>We do know that Maria is messing with the magic circles, since when she dies they kind of stop, so she's trying somewhat to have everyone accept the witch.

Well, at the very least she's the only one who can identify the circles. So, even if she has nothing to do with the creation of them, the fact that she knows enough about them to identify them would be a factor for whoever did make them, and wanted to give the impression that the murders were supernatural.

I'm inclined to think she's not the one responsible for the circles directly, however.
After all, once the circles stopped, those numbers showed up instead. If the goal of those circles was to promote the idea that killings are supernatural in nature, and the culprits were depending upon Maria to help that idea by identifying them for the survivors, it wouldn't be too far-out-there to suppose that the death of a crucial piece of the plan like her would call for a slight change in the M.O. Hence, the creepy magic circles get replaces with the not-quite-so-creepy string of numbers.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:37:33 2009 No.2792331

>>2792322
Yeah, I realize that too. But we do know that Battler is the master of small bombs.

In seriousness, you're right; I don't think it'd be totally unbelievable for Battler to go totally batshit after shooting all of his cousins dead, but I'd be lying if I said I was really confident in it. His total hysteria at the end is still very striking to me, though.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:39:33 2009 No.2792335

Hey /jp/ sorry to interrupt didn't want to make a new topic, I just downloaded Umineko Episode 4 from the 3 part Megaupload link and the patch.

I changed my system locale to Japanese, unzipped the game (which seems to be already installed), unzipped the patch into the game folder (correctly, 1 sub folder down), and tried to run the game from onscripter-en.

It is giving me an error 'This patch is not installed properly because you did not install the game'.

Is there anyway around this?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:41:33 2009 No.2792339

>>2792323

So... what? A 'I'm probably not going to successfully escape so please find out what happened' plea before putting into action her plan to kill the Ushiromiya family? That's assuming Kinzo's death left her in the care of someone, and that someone was determined to keep her locked in, or something along those lines. Which... Again, assumes some weird Kanon=Shannon esque theory, or a ridiculous take on the meaning of 'on the island'.

Well, I'm not actually that un-fond of the theory, Maria could've found the 'other Maria', and visited her often, befriending her in their joint belief of witches (or Maria2's playing along, at least), outside of Kinzo's supervision, until last year Kinzo was already dead, and Maria2 determined she would never be able to escape her life of isolation even after Kinzo's death, due to Krauss, Genji, Nanjo, or whoever the fuck ever. So she put into motion her plan to escape, with the help of Maria and potentially Kanon/Shannon? Who knows.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:41:33 2009 No.2792342 >>2792335 Stop being lazy and download the iso like the rest of us.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:43:33 2009 No.2792347 >>2792335 >which seems to be already installed That's your problem. Just find the ISO and install it from there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:43:33 2009 No.2792350 >>2792342 Download the 3 part one or the 15 part one... hm... tough choice. Now can someone ACTUALLY help please?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:44:33 2009 No.2792351 >>2792335 Buy the game. Insert the witty reaction face of your choice. But seriously, they aren't expensive and they deserve the money.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:44:33 2009 No.2792352 >>2792350 The .iso can be found on the #/jp/ IRC bots.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:45:33 2009 No.2792354

>>2792323
Perhaps the "Maria" who wrote the letters was made to write them, possibly against her will, as part of the plan to use the whole angle of witches and supernatural killings as part of some ritual as a cover for what really happened, and the "please find the truth" part was her small attempt at fighting against that plot.

One of the points mentioned in the game is how later "truths" wind up over-writing the "truth" of the past. So, whatever actually happened on the island had become over-written by the "truth" that basically said "a witch did it". If the idea of setting up the murders in this way that such a "truth" became accepted, and someone used that to get away with the crimes, I could see someone who was perhaps an unwilling accomplice to it want to try to expose the truth, even if they couldn't do it themselves.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:45:33 2009 No.2792355

>>2792339
I think it might be a mistake to assume that "Beatrice exists outside the 17" automatically means "Beatrice is the culprit". See, my feelings are very similar to a lot of peoples' in that Mysterious Killer X arriving, whether after the first twilight or whatever, would be very cheap, so I think that the killer(s) are still amongst the 17, and Beatrice is tied to a lot of the issues that led to the killings, but somehow I'm inclined to be suspicious of the idea that she exists, so she must be the 'mastermind/culprit'.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:45:33 2009 No.2792356 >>2792351 I have. I'm waiting for it in the mail and wanted to get a jump start. I'd rather not have to download the 15 part file if I can help it, and torrents don't work for me (on a college network that block them)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:46:33 2009 No.2792358 >>2792352 My campus blocks IRC connections too (yes it's shitty)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:48:33 2009 No.2792363 >>2792358 Which OS are you running?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:49:33 2009 No.2792365 >>2792356 Use JDownloader for the 15 part file. Problem solved.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:49:33 2009 No.2792366 >>2792363 Vista.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:50:33 2009 No.2792370 >>2792366 Folder everything is in in called Umineko4?

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:52:33 2009 No.2792373

>>2792355

Hm, possible enough, but how would that factor in with Beatrice writing in Maria's notebook? On top of the message bottles? Is Beatrice just playing along with Maria's belief of witches, or possibly believing it due to being preconditioned by Kinzo to do so? Could the 'killer' or foiled killer have forced Beatrice to write the messages for the bottles and put them out into the ocean to spread the witch idea, and then simply killed her and hid the body (probably at Kuwadorian)?

I really do wish Ange would've gotten the chance to explore the island before being intercepted and MAGIC FIGHT. That never happened

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:53:33 2009 No.2792380 >>2792231 Think of it this way: Battler was destined to solve the epitaph. With two years to think on it, he certainly would have. But six years ago, he committed the sin of leaving the family, giving him only one day to solve it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:54:33 2009 No.2792381 >>2792370 They are. Does it have to be in the Program Files\07th_Expansion\Umineko4 folder though? That might be what's wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:57:33 2009 No.2792387 File: 68 KB, 1160x594, ghrtjhkjh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2792381 Here's a picture of what my directory looks like. Worst case scenario you'll have to mess around with regedit.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 01:58:33 2009 No.2792393

>>2792373
Well, I think any of those ideas are plausible enough, honestly.

If I had to make my own guesses without going as far as "this is my solid theory backed up by such and such", going by the thematic narrative we see in Episode 4, I would assume Beatrice also believes in magic like Maria, or at least is desperately relying upon it to cope with her situation, like Maria.

Though, I don't think Beatrice is the mastermind/culprit, nor do I think she's a total victim. If anything, going by her behavior when she confronts Battler in Episode 4, I'd say she's ultimately completely indifferent to all of the killings and is mostly focused on her goal to meet Battler and get him to remember his sin.

Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:00:33 2009 No.2792400

>>2792380
Hm, I could see that.
Still, I do wonder if anything did change on the island that might have complicated solving the riddle. The torii disappeared sometime after the portrait was put up, after all, so perhaps something else changed on the island in that time, too. Heck, maybe the torii were even meant to be a clue, somehow.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:01:33 2009 No.2792403 >>2792387 Okay yeah I had to put it in Program Files etc. Thanks a lot. It's working now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:12:33 2009 No.2792444 Dammit, after reading the latest posts in this thread, I'm finally convinced of Beatrice=Jessica, no matter how annoyingly obvious it is. It couldn't be anyone else.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:14:33 2009 No.2792448 >>2792444 What? What the hell made you believe that? There are plenty of other viable theories at the moment, many of them negating the need for that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:15:33 2009 No.2792449 >>2792358 Connect on the SSL ports, I doubt they block those.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:18:33 2009 No.2792458 File: 58 KB, 494x482, 1245051676587.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2792444 It has its strong points, but the Jessica-Beatrice theory never struck me as AMAZINGLY OBVIOUSLY TRUE or anything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:19:33 2009 No.2792461 >200 posts and 8 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view. Time for a new thread guys.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 19 02:20:33 2009 No.2792462 >>2792458 I don't really know why, but that picture made me laugh incredibly hard.

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