[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/jp/ - Otaku Culture

View post   
  [?]In ghost mode, only threads with non-archived posts will be shown
File: 74 KB, 640x506, wat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2736824 No.2736824 [Reply] [Original]

The red text states the universal truth.

>> No.2736830

There are two Ushiromiya Battlers's.

>> No.2736833
File: 57 KB, 640x506, the.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2736833

Can you deduce anything from those two sentences?

>> No.2736836

"Mother" doesn't necessarily mean "birth mother"

>> No.2736839

Why is the art so shitty?

>> No.2736847

Names are not monopolies, blah blah blah...

>> No.2736863

>>2736824
>>2736833
Battler is a girl?

>> No.2736866
File: 76 KB, 640x501, fuck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2736866

>>2736836
Valid point. But it doesn't change anything.
This is the truth.
The BATTLER we know is not the real Battler!
The real Battler is a GIRL

>> No.2736876

>>2736847
>The red text states the universal truth.
It's true for anyone who's called Ushiromiya Battler.

>> No.2736881

God, this one isn't hard. There are two Battlers. One is the child of Asumu, the other is not.

>> No.2736897

>>2736881
"He"'s not a male child.

>> No.2736932

Two Battlers, one of them is female
I came

>> No.2736941

ONII-CHAN.
THIS IS THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH.
Followed by a gruesome death.

>> No.2736951

Second Battler is Beatrice. Shannon is Kanon. George is Jessica. Natsuhi is Gohda. Kinzo is a seagull.

>> No.2736962

THEN WHO WAS PHONE?

>> No.2736969

>>2736951
Kumasawa is a mackerel.

>> No.2736974

He can say Battler was born from Asumu, but he can't say "I" was born from Asumu.

He has a twin brother, Shattler.

>> No.2736975

>>2736962
WHY THE HELL IS THERE A PHONE IN THE JAIL CELL?!!?!

>> No.2736984

The Battler born from Asumu is Kanon. He's the only person whose corpse hasn't been found as of the end of episode 4 and the declaration of his "death" could be interpretted as the furniture personality dying and his "Battler" personality reawakening. This same sort of rationale, when applied to episode two explains how he could have reappeared in the servants' room and killed Kumasawa and Nanjo (assuming that part wasn't entirely fiction). Furthermore, isn't it odd that we still don't know his name and that he was reluctant to give Jessica his name?

>> No.2736985

>different mothers
>he has a twin
I'm fairly sure it doesn't work that way.

>> No.2736991

>>2736984
Forgot to add, but this would obviously explain the way in which the Battler piece dies on the game board in episode 4 (No one except Ushiromiya Battler is on the island, nothing outside the island can affect it, Battler does not die in an accident or suicide but by homicide)

>> No.2737002

>>2736984
You have a point, but I don't think the red can be interpreted THAT loosely. If you dead in red, then you dead.

The biggest problem I have with Kanon being the 'real' Battler is the fact that he is TWO FUCKING YEARS YOUNGER. That's a hell of a trick. If anything, he's the second Battler, trying to usurp the house or whatever.

>> No.2737005

>>2736991
>>2736984
The "Kanon's real name is Ushiromiya Battler" makes some sense, but "Kanon's furniture personality dying" counting as Kanon's death in red is bullshit. For now, I prefer to believe in red completely to have some ground. And it was stated several times in red that Kanon, referring to the only person known as Kanon, is dead.

>> No.2737008
File: 23 KB, 320x321, CLEVAR.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737008

Well, it comes down to this.

>> No.2737012

>>2736991
No.

It was said in red You are alone on this island. There is noone else here but you. And -I- am not -you-. And yet I am here now and will kill you.

Whoever or whatever killed Battler, the only person that COULDN'T have is another Battler. Because Beatrice isn't him.

>> No.2737013
File: 8 KB, 290x194, oh.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737013

>>2737008

>> No.2737016

>>2737008
It's not in red. I don't believe it.

>> No.2737026

>>2737012
Beatrice is already dead but it's her somehow causing Battler's death.

>> No.2737028

when is ep5 coming out?

>> No.2737029

>>2737026
Correct. So it could be anyone. Remember how Maria died? Battler was eating in the kitchen just a short while before...

>> No.2737031

>>2737012
SMALL BOMBS IN THE WINE HE DRANK

>> No.2737033

>>2737031
Goddammit Battler, you're never living that one down.

>> No.2737036

The Battler we know is the son of Kyrie. There was some kind of mixup early on and he became known as Asumu's son. The other Battler is killing the family to take revenge for being deprived of his inheritance.

>> No.2737041

>>2737036
Wrong! If he would really kill the family because of that, then it wouldn't be related with his sin from 6 years ago.

>> No.2737049

>>2737041
I think that he did something that got him exiled from the rest of the family, rather than making that choice himself. Probably shooting maids with a BB Gun or something.

>> No.2737057
File: 251 KB, 645x504, WHAT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737057

OP here, I think that Everyone in the Fukuin House is Rudolf's illegitimate child, including Kanon and Shannon. Rudolf took the new Battler from there, which would explain why the new Battler hates him so much (Rudolf ignored him since he was born). He's now called "Ushiromiya Battler", but it's not his real name. The key to his identity is his fear of boats, planes and cars.

>> No.2737064

Guys, guys... It's pronounced "Batora". I would know, I watched the uncensored japanese anime. (In japan, anime is for adults!)

>> No.2737066

Well Rudolf is aware what's going to happen on the island. Remember how in Episode 1 he said he's going to be killed?

>> No.2737074

>>2737064
BORAT JUSTICE FROM PHOENIX WRIGHT ANIMU

>> No.2737087

>>2737031
ANGE'S HAIR CLIPS ARE SMALL BOMBS THAT KILLED KASUMI'S MEN

>> No.2737093

>>2737066
And he is killed every single time, except when the servants are the victims. He has the highest death rate amongst everyone.

>> No.2737104

>>2737028
August if it's on schedule but then you'll have to deal with episode 5 spoilers for several months before any translation is out. It feels good to be completely caught up with everything released. There are no spoilers to fear.

>> No.2737107

>>2737005
>>2737002
Kanon's corpse is the only one which wasn't confirmed in episode 4. Everyone else (apart from Maria) had their faces blown off, which usually means you're dead. There are only 17 people on the island at the start of the board and at the end, only Ushiromiya Battler is on Rokkenjima. There's no direct evidence linking him to the crime, but the circumstancial evidence is fairly strong, don't you think?

That said, I'd ask you to consider my theory again - if you think it sounds like bull because it relies on semantics and questionable interpretations, doesn't that make it all the more probable? It's exactly the sort of twisted logic a witch would employ to intentionally mislead others, which is precisely the purpose of the red.

>>2737012
It's a question of interpretation. By definition, if only Ushiromiya Battler is on the island and someone murders him, then the other person must also be Ushiromiya Battler. The whole "I am not you" thing was merely implying that the speaker wasn't the Battler we know, thereby ruling out suicide. If it had been said that "I am not Ushiromiya Battler," rather than "I am not you," then it would be a different story. It's intentionally misleading.

Or can you explain that business at the end within the context of the red using a different theory?

>> No.2737108

>>2737057
But what does that have to do with 6 years ago? And don't tell me he's only been in the family for 6 years and was hypnotized to think he'd been there from the start. How would he know the cousins so familiarly if that was the case?

Frankly, all of these 'Multiple Battler' theories just seem dumb to me. You CAN interpret what was said in red that way, but I think you've taken the ball and run in completely the wrong direction with it. There is some doubt about his parentage, but I don't think he's some body double or a replacement that got brought in 6 years ago. I'm not sure how it all worked out, but looking at Ange, I'm gonna but my money on Battler being Kyrie's supposedly lost son. Asumu's son probably came stillborn, or died quickly, and when Kyrie gave birth shortly after, the baby was taken from her in some way. She might not even realize thats the case. Most parents in those situations DO still name their children. So Battler was born from Asumu and died, and then Kyrie's son was taken and named 'Battler'. Though this means Battler might have another name... Hehehe, remember when Battler demanded that it be repeated in red that 'noone on this island has multiple names'? HA

>> No.2737113

>>2737107
>Kanon's corpse is the only one which wasn't confirmed in episode 4

It was confirmed in red that he was dead.

>> No.2737114

What I'm really interested to see is if any/all of the grandchildren (other than Battler) ever get killed on the First Twilight. If they keep living through it, it has to be significant in some way.

>> No.2737116

>>2737057
Or... Asumu gave birth to a girl, but Rudolf was a dick and he wanted a male heir, so he switched her with a newly-born boy from one of his lovers.(not Kyrie). The girl went to the Fukuin house,8 years later she started working at the Ushiromiya mansion as Shannon. This would give her a motive...

>> No.2737120

>>2737108
Don't forget Shannon and Kanon aren't real names but they still count as names.

>> No.2737124

>>2737116
Which means that George's relationship with Shannon is incestuous.

It's just like a real h-game!

>> No.2737131

>>2737108
Both Shannon and Kanon have multiple names. That means nothing for Battler.

>> No.2737133

>>2737107
Well. It was also said in red 'You are ALONE on this island. And that's not really something you can misinterpret. Given that Maria seems to have died of poisoning, Battler may share the same fate.

When Ange tries to reach the mansion in 1998, she can't get there, the whole area has changed and is pretty much past sheer cliff that she wouldn't be able to get back up. The whole mansion could blow up, burn down, or be filled with a nerve gas, by a timed device that the killer set up ahead of time. There could be a landslide or earthquake of some sort. Also remember, noone ever gets off the island alive. Except Eva, when she hid in Kuwadorian. We really have no idea what happens in that mansion at midnight of the last day. But nobody comes back from there.

>> No.2737140

>>2737124
If Kanon happens to be the real Battler then it's the same thing

>> No.2737141

>>2737108

I'm leaning towards this. There seemed to be a few suggestions that Kyrie was his true mother, anyway.

>> No.2737143

>>2737114

They probably stay alive because they're inside the guesthouse during the first twilight.

>> No.2737151

What's Kanon's real name again?

>> No.2737156

>>2737108
You're making a mistake when you assume that everything related to the murders has a relation to Battler and his sin from six years ago. It's important, no doubt, but trying to understand everything that happens within that context creates problems, especially since it's obvious that the culprit has had accomplices.

>>2737113
When I spoke of confirmation, I was referring to actually seeing the corpse. Saying that "Kanon died in this room," for example could also mean "The good man who was your furniture Kanon was killed by Darth Vader," if you understand my meaning. Unless Battler sees the corpse with his own eyes, you should take even the red with a grain of salt (not because it's telling an outright lie) but because it's the witch's weapon and will be used in her advantage to only show you what she wants. It's like the Plantir from LoTR.

>> No.2737158

>>2737151
Not yet revealed.

>> No.2737159

>>2737151
I've completely forgotten the specifics, but it is talked about somewhere in EP 1 or 2.

I know the names "Shannon" and "Kanon" are derived from their original names, and Shannon's is "Sayo" or so... I forget if they ever talked about Kanon's name

>> No.2737160

>>2737151
We don't know his real name and he was reluctant to tell Jessica. Strange, huh?

>> No.2737161

>>2737114
One of the most unique solutions would be if the first twilight ended with death of the 4 cousing, and Shannon and Gohda, who were accompanying them back to the guesthouse.

>> No.2737163

"kanon is dead", yeah sure beatrice but that was the old personality's "name", the new kanon is Ushiromiya Battler there is just 1 person on the island, 2 ushiromiya battler

>> No.2737169

>>2737158
>>2737159
>>2737160
Battler confirmed for Kanon's real name

>> No.2737170

Kanon's real name is Battler
Kanon and Shannon are the same person
Kanon is the mastermind

>> No.2737177
File: 12 KB, 188x209, hurrdurr.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737177

>>2737156
Darth Vader killed Kanon, you say?

>> No.2737186

>>2737177
BUT THE OTHER BATTLER IS THE GODDAMN BATMAN
For reference, please see >>2737008

>> No.2737193

Jessica killed Kanon. Maybe in self defense since she was stabbed in the back. Then she moved the body out of her room and locked herself in.

Problem solved.

>> No.2737195

>>2737186
BATMAN IS A GIRL!?

>> No.2737197

>>2737193
Not enough small bombs in your theory. I'm sorry, this just won't do.

>> No.2737198

>>2737133
The police are able to investigate the mansion afterwards in every case, so we know that no natural disasters or poison gas happens on midnight of the last day.

More importantly, don't take the meaning of the red as literally as you do, because while it's the truth, recall that this episode has hammered home that the truth is affected by the person to whom it belongs. If Beato wanted to be clear, she could have said, "There is only one human alive on the island, who is you - Ushiromiya Battler." Instead, we get a lot of "yous" and other ambiguous language, but we get a definite confirmation that someone kills him (so it isn't a suicide). Interpret that statement as "only Ushiromiya Battler is on Rokkenjima" rather than "only one human that is currently you is on Rokkenjima" and everything becomes clearer.

>> No.2737204

>>2737198
thats because there are 2 battlers

>> No.2737212

>>2737198
The police investigation after Ep3 also decided that it was an 'accident' and let Eva off, which is pretty damn amazing if everyones bodies were lying around with bullet holes in them.

>> No.2737234

This doesn't really have anything to do with what's being discussed, but what do you think Kinzo being dead means for Genji? It seems that beyond being devoted to the family, he is devoted to Kinzo specifically, so at the very least, it seems unlikely that Kinzo's death was unnatural (murdered by Krauss, say), since if it was Genji wouldn't be playing along. This doesn't really exclude Genji, Krauss, Nanjo, etc. from having anything to do with the main event, but it's still somewhat interesting.

>> No.2737242

>>2737212
lol Japanese police

>> No.2737246

>>2737198
>>2737212
There's no way it could have been poisonous gas! It must have been a conspiracy!


TAKANO IS AT IT AGAIN

>> No.2737252

>>2737234
I've theorized that Kinzo may have attempted to molest Jessica due to her appearance, if she accidentally killed him in self defense, I don't think even Genji would have much to say. It's also possible that when Kinzo died he left the servants and Krauss with orders to conceal that fact for some reason.

If you consider Ronove's behavior a general model for a younger Genji, his general clamming up might be due to the unpleasant situation he's got caught up in.

>> No.2737255

>>2737246
Well, it's not entirely bullshit, if you assume that Takano is the super-paper...

>> No.2737264 [DELETED] 

>>2737252

That could work, but it seems horribly out of character for Kinzo, who was obsessed with Beatrice whether or not he succeeded in resurrecting her.

>> No.2737287

>>2737198
There's HUGE difference between "only you" and "only Ushiromiya Battler", and the former is much less ambiguous.

>> No.2737289

Where would be the best place to get all the currently released episodes and their translations?

>> No.2737297

>>2737289

google "umineko ep 4", go to the Witch Hunt site for the patch.

>> No.2737301

>>2737289
http://tracker.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107238

if you want a torrent you can find it on hongfire yourself

TL is here http://witch-hunt.com/

>> No.2737304

>>2737289
http://tokyotosho.info/details.php?id=180480
http://www.mediafire.com/?4cjw5wmgjwo

>> No.2737310

if you want to download via IRC here it is

http://gilheney.com/VNs/index.php?bot=[jp]VNs-English

>> No.2737318

>>2737287
Exactly. The way >>2737198 is saying it, there could be 500 people on the island, and as long as they are all named 'Ushiromiya Battler' then its all good. But Beato specifically said "You" several times, which is -less- ambiguous.

>> No.2737326

What was with the two Beatos in that one scene? Doesn't that shed a different light on Beato's "I am not you" said to Battler in red? Maybe the one of them was an alternate personality of Battler's.

>> No.2737327

My theory about the otherBattler:

Natsuhi and Krauss couldn't have a child 18 years ago, since Eva wanted to make George the heir they had to move quickly. Rudolf expected 2 children at that time, one from Asumu and one from Kyrie, a daughter and a son. At that time he "sold" Asumu's daughter to Krauss and made Asumu's believe that Kyrie's son was her own.

That would explain why Jessica is so different compared to Krauss or Natsuhi, also her weak body could be inherited from Asumu, and there is no way that Kinzo or even Krauss or Natsuhi could have made someone who doesn't have the Ushiromiya's blood the heir.

>> No.2737350

>>2737318
No, because it was also confirmed in red that there were only 17 people on the island at the start of each game board. And "you" is remarkable ambiguous, given that it can mean "the person to whom I am speaking," or it could simply mean a name. While the two usually are the same thing, recall that we're dealing with a witch that loves to employ deception.

>There's HUGE difference between "only you" and "only Ushiromiya Battler", and the former is much less ambiguous.

That's my point, actually. Only "you" can mean "only Ushiromiya Battler" as well as "only the person to whom I am making this statement and as such. The fact that a huge difference exists should cause you to consider how the meaning of what she says could change dramatically, depending on how its read.

>> No.2737368

>>2737327
>Jessica
>frail body
What.
Also, she actually DOES resemble both Natsuhi and Krauss. With all those Jessica theories, she becomes some sort of Kohaku or something.

>> No.2737375

>>2737327

Interesting theory. I hadn't thought of that.

>>2737350
Ah, but the statement that there are only 17 people on the island could be misleading. If multiple people had the same name, would they still be counted as separate people?

Do recall that if you say no to that, it shoots a hole in your own theory about how Battler can be 'alone' on the island and yet there is another person there.

>> No.2737376

>>2737350
Sorry, but word "you" means "YOU" and not "someone by your name". It just... it just doesn't mean that, man.

>> No.2737379

>>2737368
Jessica has a weak body... Asthma etc.

>> No.2737381

>>2737376
Oh, not to mention "alone". There's nothing ambiguous about " you are ALONE". Sorry, but when there is a second person with your name is close to you, you're not ALONE.

>> No.2737382

>>2737327
OP here, great thinking.
Now I wonder how Asumu looked like...

>> No.2737396

>>2737368
In term of personality she is even closer to Rudolf though.
And you have to be logic, if Rudolf really had 2 children, what reason would he had to abandon one of them, especially if it's Asumu's child who was his wife at that time. Money is the only reason I see.

>> No.2737403

>>2737396
Money is a good reason for Rudolph. Consider his personality.

>> No.2737407

>>2737396
He married Asumu after that. The person that switched the babies could've been Kyrie... But why the fuck?

>> No.2737413

>>2737407

Because it was convenient. He had another kid right there, after all. And since he was forced to marry Asumu anyway (if we believe Kyrie) nothing would have come of Battler otherwise.

>> No.2737414

>>2737403
Yeah that's what I think too.
Anyways that's my theory.
Also Jessica has always been one of the most likely culprit to me, since that scene when she talked about "creating another being within herself' in episode 2.
And seeing her adventurous personality and the fact that she lived without much company in the island for all her life, she could have found the other mansion in the forest one day and discovered some secret.

>> No.2737417

>>2737396
>>2737403
And remeber that Shannon and Kanon are Rudolf's bastards. MASSIVE INCEST. No wonder Eva and Natsuhi get so angry.

>> No.2737424

>>2737417
Wait, the orphanage was started for all of Rudolph's illegitimate children?

>> No.2737425

>>2737407
Same reason that Kasumi wants to kill Ange, to possess the Ushiromiya fortune. Kyrie figured that it'd be easier to just scam them out of it, rather than go through the hassle of being raised like a proper woman like Kasumi was.

>> No.2737429

>>2737376
You is a pronoun that we use as a stand-in for a name and as a direct object. Usually, the two are the same thing, but the example I rephrased above shows how that might not be the case this time.

>>2737381
"Ushiromiya Battler is alone on Rokkenjima," =/= "there is only one human alive on Rokkenjima." The fact that you acknowledge that a difference exists based on whether I use the name or "you" in this statement (which in a normal conversation would be inconsequential) shows that in this case, you should really think about what it means outside the normal interpretation, no?


>>2737375
>Ah, but the statement that there are only 17 people on the island could be misleading. If multiple people had the same name, would they still be counted as separate people?

No, because someone this episode became Goldsmith and simultaneously held the name of Kinzo and whatever his/her actual name was.

Do recall that if you say no to that, it shoots a hole in your own theory about how Battler can be 'alone' on the island and yet there is another person there.

If the other person alive is also bears the name Ushiromiya Battler (Asumu's son) as well as whatever name he holds now, the statement that only Ushiromiya Battler is alive on Rokkenjima, et al doesn't conflict with it.

>> No.2737430
File: 127 KB, 404x500, tsundora.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737430

>>2737414
She was possesed by Beatrice's vengeful ghost
The tsun side comes from Rudolf. The dora side comes from Beatrice.

>> No.2737440

>>2737429

>the statement that only Ushiromiya Battler is alive on Rokkenjima

That wasn't the statement.

The statement was "THERE IS NOBODY ALIVE ON THIS ISLAND OTHER THAN YOU". It meant 'you' as in the target of this sentence, not "Ushiromiya Battler".

>> No.2737448

>>2737424
It's damn obvious.

>> No.2737452

>>2737414
She found the mansion either SIX years ago (the sin) or TWO years ago (the portrait).

>> No.2737457

>>2737429
You are bringing the finer points of the English language into this argument now. The original text was written in Japanese. What we need is someone more versed in moonspeak and who read through that scene to clarify for us.

>> No.2737459

>>2737440
>It meant 'you' as in the target of this sentence

How do you know that?

>> No.2737464

Just thinking, can't now remember was it said that battler was only one alive on the island? if it was not so, then battler could be dead and someone else is alive. This way if we asume that everyone in meta-world is linked to someone in real world, causes that that meta-battler =/= gamepiece battler, but somehow this meta-battler shares view with piece-battler (and not his real-self), and when piece-battler died meta-battler view shifted to piece who he realy is, but due to shock meta-battler recocnises himdelf as battler. this way the you can be explained.

>> No.2737470
File: 246 KB, 640x506, sighttest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737470

How many Battlers can you spot in this picture?

>> No.2737473

>>2737470
Four.

>> No.2737475

>>2737470

7!
And 4 Beatrices.
And Kanon and Shannon.
And Kinzo.

>> No.2737491

Everyone is Battler, including you

>> No.2737492

>No, because someone this episode became Goldsmith and simultaneously held the name of Kinzo and whatever his/her actual name was.

That is one person having multiple names. If multiple people had the same name, your argument seems to imply they could be blanketed under a 'you', or even said that 'you are alone on this island' So whether there are two Battlers or two hundred, Beato's statement could be interpreted the same way. The point I'm trying to make is that there are simpler solutions than something as ridiculous as that, that don't need vague interpretations of the red.

>> No.2737513

>>2737473
You... you... QUADRUPLE BATTLER

>> No.2737514

>>2737470
Two Battlers and Sento-kun

>> No.2737530

goddamn i love umineko

>> No.2737531

>>2737492
>That is one person having multiple names. If multiple people had the same name, your argument seems to imply they could be blanketed under a 'you', or even said that 'you are alone on this island.'So whether there are two Battlers or two hundred, Beato's statement could be interpreted the same way.

That's right. And why is there a problem with interpreting it this way? It's already been confirmed that multiple names is at work in this story with Kinzo and the statements of "I am Ushiromiya Battler" and "Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son," followed by his inability to proclaim being born from Asumu all but guarantee that another Battler existed some time in the past (assuming he isn't around now). And recall that your reductio ad absurdium of 200 Battlers is a non-issue given that the maximum number on the island at the start of each board was confirmed to be 17 in red. Only 2 Battlers are on Rokkenjima, at most.

> The point I'm trying to make is that there are simpler solutions than something as ridiculous as that, that don't need vague interpretations of the red.

Give your logically consistent, less ridiculous and simpler solution then.

>> No.2737541
File: 80 KB, 899x661, 1244334528520.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737541

>> No.2737554

>>2737531
>been confirmed that multiple names is at work in this story with Kinzo
Uh, no. The Kinzo point was only stated in blue and wasn't denied by Beato. But as we know, Beato didn't deny a lot of things she could have.
Also, both the usage of "now" in Beato's statement and the poison theory give room for more logical explanations.

>> No.2737568

At the end, Beatrice is there with Battler, but as a dead body. When Beatrice appears on the stairs before Battler when midnight strikes, meta takes over, but Battler tells her in red: "I'll kill you." In the game, piece-Battler killed piece-Beatrice, dragged her corpse out to the rose garden, and somehow this resulted in his death. Madness or guilt from killing her?

>> No.2737570

I have been kicking around the theory that Beatrice is in fact a hidden personality of Jessica, born from her own frustration at her position, Kinzo's madness, and perhaps Battler's percieved abandonment of her. I'm going to try and put my complete theory down in this thread, as I've only posted bits and pieces of it in various threads.

First of all. This theory assumes the information from Episode 3 concerning Beatrice is correct. Kinzo met her years before, and after borrowing the gold, fell in love with her. Kinzo, undeterred when she rejected him, simply took her by force, building a hidden mansion on the island he bought and imprisoning her there. Unable to escape, she eventually commited suicide.

However, she had a child, or Kinzo found an infant that bore a high enough resemblance, and this child was kept on in the hidden mansion for her entire life, looked after by Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo checking up on occasion. Years later, Rosa stumbles across the hidden mansion, and meets Beatrice #2 who has been desiring to leave and see the outside world. She leads that Beatrice out, only for her to fall from a cliff and die on the rocks below.

Again, she may have been pregnant, or another child was acquired. The timing here is important. Battler and Jessica were both born in 1967 roughly, since they are both 18 in 1985. In '67 Krauss and Natsuhi had been trying to conceive unsuccessfully for more than a decade. Since Kuwadorian wasnt used after Beatrice #2 died accidentally, Kinzo must have wanted to keep the newly born Beatrice someplace she could be kept under observation and not so isolated. So, he gave the child to Krauss and Natsuhi, sternly ordering them to look after her as their own. He may have even told them not to worry about proper succession, as she carried his blood. This might be why Krauss and Natsuhi are somewhat distant from their daughter.

>> No.2737571

>>2737554
It wasn't denied by Lambdadelta either, which gives it as high a chance of being true as anything else.

Do you have the "Ushiromiya Battler, I will now kill you" and "I am here now" lines in the original Japanese? I'd like to see if there's any differences.

>> No.2737574

>>2737570
Battler is born at roughly the same time, Rudolph's son, though not to Asumu. Asumu probably miscarried instead of Kyrie, and the Ushiromiyas forced Kyrie to turn over her child to Rudolph and Asumu. The miscarried child was going to also be named Battler, that name got passed on to Kyrie's firstborn (this is also why Battler and Ange look so alike). It has also been theorized that Jessica is actually Rudolph and Asumu's daughter, and was given over to Krauss for some reason. Then Battler was taken from Kyrie, and she may have been led to believe her child died.

As time passes, Kinzo's mind slips further into madness. Jessica is raised normally, though as she gets older Kinzo begins paying more and more attention to her, convinced she is yet another Beatrice. When Jessica and Battler are about 12, Battler says something to Jessica that leaves a deep impression on her, even if he thought little of it. He might have bragged that he'd come charging to the rescue if she were ever in trouble, or he'd help her escape from her oppressive family, something along those lines.

Shortly after, Asumu dies. Rudolph remarries quickly, to Kyrie, who is pregnant with Ange. Battler can't accept this turn of events, and leaves the family to live with Asumu's parents.

Kinzo's madness worsens. Jessica feels like Battler abandoned her. Kinzo starts visiting Jessica more often, telling her about the previous Beatrices, and revealing many of his secrets to her. At some point, Kinzo makes a move on Jessica. Given Kinzo's personality, he's not likely to ask. Also recall what Beatrice said about Kinzo's interests... This may have happened more than once. At some point, Jessica's mind, unable to accept what was happening to her and despairing over Battler, who never came, broke down and a new persona was formed, taking the name of Beatrice.

>> No.2737576

>>2737574
Sometime in 1983, Kinzo dies. Jessica may have killed him, perhaps trying to resist him. Krauss might have done it as well if he found out what was going on with all of Jessica's visits to his room (remember, like Rudolph told Kyrie once, even though he brags and blusters, Krauss can become the most reliable of the siblings when the chips are down. If he found out Kinzo was raping his daughter, I don't think Kinzo would be around much longer.). Either way, it was neccessary to conceal Kinzo's death, in order to protect his family and also prevent the distribution of the inheritance. In all likelyhood, all of the negative memories and emotions Jessica had experienced got shoved onto Beatrice and locked away.

A few more years pass. Beatrice spends most of the time dormant, though she does come forward to speak to Shannon, sadistically urging her forward deeper into a relationship with George,which she thinks is bound to fail. She even tells Kanon as much when he catches her before she regresses after one of her meetings with Shannon. Which makes the relationship Jessica wants to make with him rather... awkward, since he's afraid this is another cruel joke of Beato's. George and Shannon's relationship seems to be poised to succeed despite all odds, much to Jessica and Beato's envy.

Then word comes to Rokkenjima: Battler is coming back into the family. Beatrice awakens, and begins forming a plan to take revenge on Battler for forgetting his promise to her.

Jessica is in the perfect position to set the ball rolling. From her father, she know that all the siblings are in a precarious position financially. The tensions regarding the succession of the headship are getting high, especially with the rumor being spread among the siblings that whoever solves Kinzo's riddle will become the next head. Confirming this is enough to get people all hot and bothered.

>> No.2737589

>>2737576
Now throw in some wild cards. Through Kinzo, Jessica knows where the gold is. She knows the servants, probably better than her parents. She knows where Kinzo keeps Beatrice's old clothes. She knows about the emergency funds Kinzo set up, and where he kept all the keys. She can get out from her parents supervision for days at a time under the pretense of bad weather. She knows the ins and outs of both mansions. And don't forget, she knows Maria will believe just about anything if you say you are a witch.

From here, events depend upon the exact conditions of the game. She might carry out some of the killings herself, or it might not even be neccessary. She could be the person putting the magic circles and whatnot around the house, since she and Nanjo are the likliest to know how to make proper symbols (and she knows Maria can read them).

In the case of Episode 2, after she or her accomplice killed all the parents but Rosa, Kanon may have confronted her while she was alone with him. He stabbed her, she retaliated, and wound up killing him. She moved the body out of her room and hid it someplace, then locked herself back into her room, and later died.

>> No.2737594

>>2737589
Though, could she have been faking? I remember Beato saying Kanon was dead with the red, but was Jessica's death confirmed in the way? I don't recall as much, but if she knew where Kanon's body was, she could have dressed in his bloody clothes and a wig to fool the servants, however briefly, while she waited for a chance to attack them.

Not much red was used in Ep4, and none regarding Jessica really. She could have worn Beatrice's clothes and greeted Battler from the balcony. Despite Battler's surity that it was 'Beatrice', his outlook was warped after the converation with Kyrie. Plus, I dont know if it was a translation error or not: she was described as coming out of the second floor balcony. But Kinzo's room is on the THIRD floor, right? Jessica's is on the second flood if I recall correctly though... Either way, Battler was looking up at her from 10-20 feet or so, in the dark, while it was raining hard. I'm not going to begrudge him for fooling himself into believing it.

So anyway, that is my theory. There are holes in it, and plenty of things are still not explained. I'm not even touching who the 'Kinzo' that appeared in Ep4 was. But it covers alot pretty well I think.

>> No.2737601

>>2737570
The second Beatrice dies in 1968, which is confirmed by the boatman in EP4.

>> No.2737630

Battler says "I'll kill you" in red. Does this mean that it will come to pass, no matter what, since he was able to say it in red?

>> No.2737638

>>2737630

Red only sets the past and present in truth.
Anything said in future tense in red is not "absolute", but "is truthful at this moment".

>> No.2737639

>>2737630
????? at the end of ep4 seems to point in that direction.

>> No.2737669

>>2737594
Jessica is dead and it's in red regarding Ep2. It says something about "The key to Jessica's room is in the pocket of her corpse". I don't remember exactly what was it, but it's definitely "corpse" referring to Jessica.

>> No.2737691

>>2737669
In english.
Could be "body" or something in the original.

>> No.2737696

>>2737691
Now you're being rude to the translators.

>> No.2737722

>>2737601
Hmm, I didn't catch that. I suppose it could be that the shipments just didn't stop immediatly. Why, I do not know. Kinzo might not have found Beatrice #2s body right away and didn't want the house to get run down while he searched. Still, that's a hole in my theory.

>> No.2737726

>>2737594
Stop. This theory is excellent, but you mustn't look at the game board.

>> No.2737731

>>2737568
He tripped, fell on his hat-stand spear and died. He was alone. Not a suicide. Just a stupid accident.

>> No.2737745

Battler is Ange's twin brother.
His sin is traveling back in time when he was born so that kandleja

>> No.2737774

>>2737745
You have to say candlejack befo

>> No.2737780

>>2737745
>>2737774
stop that candlejack bullshi

>> No.2737838

dammit I haven't seen a thread about candlejack for years dont you people start that shit agai

>> No.2737851

>>2737838
Well this candlejack bullshit certainly pisses me o

>> No.2737868
File: 24 KB, 336x252, candle2zs5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737868

I'm going to need more rope.

>> No.2737921

>>2737601
Slight revision of my theory actually. I hadn't caught it before, but there was a glaring mistake. The game takes place in 1986, not '85. 12 years later it is 1998 after all. Derp. So things do still line up correctly. Battler and Jessica were born in 68, making them both 18 in 86.

>> No.2737940
File: 44 KB, 646x505, dem_eyes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2737940

Out of nowhere

Check Kinzo's eyes.

>> No.2737957

>>2737940
SACRIFICE EVERYONE
ACQUIRE CURRENCY

>> No.2737963

>>2737940
YOU TOO

>> No.2737992

when beatrice was speaking "you" to battler, she was actually refering to both battlers. the other one was silently getting closer to the main battler to stab him in the back.

beatrice saw him and was referring to them as "you [two] are alone on this island."

>> No.2738080

>>2737940
hahaha

>>2737570
That is all really interesting and pretty plausible. Are you saying that she is the mastermind of everything in every story, though? The further into the story I got the more I felt that there was no way for any one human to be oversee every murder in every game, since everyone dies at different times.

The only problem I have with that theory (although this isn't a hugely important point) is that I kind of doubt the final, canon explanation is going to have that much "lolrape." I mean, I know it's Japan and all, but I really can't see the game going that way.

>> No.2738085

Beatrice's real name is Maria--no, she's not Rosa's daughter, she's a completely different girl who shares her name. That would explain why the message bottles are signed "Ushiromiya Maria", in spite of being written by "Beatrice", why the name is a part of the epitaph, why Kinzo flipped shit when Rosa wanted to name her daughter Maria, and why the song Happy Maria! only plays in a Beatrice scene.

>> No.2738098

>>2738080
It isn't in Ryuukishi's style, I'd say.
Though Beatrice's drunken monologue makes me doubt that.

>> No.2738215

>>2738080
OH SHIT I TOTALLY FORGOT TO ADD SOMETHING

JESSICA DRESSED UP AS A WITCH FOR TSURUPETTAN IT ALL FITS

>> No.2738218

>>2738080
She doesn't have to be the one carrying out the killings. She only lives to the end in Eps 1 and 3. She just seems like she's in a good position to get things rolling, then she just sits back and watches things roll. Though she could be the one behind all the first twilights, since those seems pretty random, aside from leaving the cousins alone.

>> No.2738236

>>2738085
I dont remember when Kinzo flipping over Maria's name happened.

>> No.2738238

>>2738215
MASTERWORK FORESHADOWING

>> No.2738240

>>2737576
>>2737574
>>2737570
This theory isn't bad but the whole "second beatrice had a child" thing is a little too farfetched.
And I think that there would have been some hints and foreshadowing that Jessica was special in the eyes of Kinzo if it was true, I don't remember any.

>> No.2738242

>>2738236
It's mentioned when the adults are discussing how to solve the riddle in Episode 3. Rosa brings it up, I think.

>> No.2738255
File: 44 KB, 646x505, Clipboard02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2738255

What is this I don't even

>> No.2738289
File: 83 KB, 958x372, 1244573649868.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2738289

>>2738255
is what I think you mean

>> No.2738307

>>2738255
It is the principle of leverage and simple boxing, makes perfect sense.

>> No.2738331
File: 83 KB, 640x507, marianame.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2738331

>>2738242
>>2738236

>> No.2738368

>>2738240
OP here, I believe that Jessica just looks similiar to Beatrice, but she's not her child. I wonder if Asumu had blonde hair... I guess we'll see in EP5.
By combining this theory with mine (Two Battlers, the original is a girl.) we can create a consistent theory that could be the key to the mystery. "Ushiromiya Battler" is the child of Asumu and Rudolf, but it does not have to be his/her name. (that's what the entire family thinks). The main character has the NAME Ushiromiya Battler. Therefore there are TWO people who may be called that. The "second" Battler is Kyrie's son, brought up by Rudolf and Asumu. Jessica is the "real" Battler, Rudolf gave her to Krauss (he absolutely had to have a male heir, i wonder if he was threatened by Kinzo...)

>> No.2738431
File: 464 KB, 874x1000, 4639981.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2738431

>> No.2738434

>>2738431

oh my god that picture is fucking awesome

>> No.2738438
File: 56 KB, 557x390, 4622796.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2738438

Another Battler reporting in

>> No.2738450

I don't know if it means anything, but is that cross the symbol of Kyrie's family? If so, why does Battler wear it? hmm.

>> No.2738455

>>2738450
oh wait

>> No.2738463

>>2737589
>>2737576
>>2737574
>>2737570

This isn't that important, especially since it's from the fantasy parts, but to add to that, Virgilia mentions that she was originally a servant in Beatrice's house when Beatrice was growing up. Kumasawa is Virgilia's vessel, and there was only one kid growing up in that house...

>> No.2738470

>>2738463
Kuwadorian, Kumasawa worked there. Boat Captain said so.

>> No.2738478

>>2738470
Oh yeah, that is true.

>> No.2738484

>>2738470
The backdrop that scene takes place against is Kuwadorian too, which, combined with that girl's personality/speaking mannerisms, is the strongest give-away that the Beatrice there can't be Kinzo's original Beatrice, or Beatrice 2.0.

>> No.2738487

>>2738455

Well, but there wouldn't be any reason for him to wear the symbol of his (supposed) stepmother's family. Though I guess they're an almost "noble" family as well.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

>> No.2738493

>>2738484
So it's pretty much a sure thing that there is a Beatrice 3.0 running around, or at least there was. I really don't think it's Jessica, but I can see where some people are coming from.

>> No.2738541

>>2738487
>Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I don't think so. Little decor on the clothes can say a whole lot, like with the Siestas and Sakutarou.

On that note, Juuza wears it too..

>> No.2738548

>>2738255
BEST part, you know you're reading something epic when you ROFL and cry between scenes of bloody massacre

>> No.2738551

>>2738368
I'll expand upon that then. Jessica poisoned the tea. After leaving the guest house, she called Battler and put on an Oscar worthy performance. She got drunk after, and then thanks to some liquid courage, called Battler out to the mansion to question him. The blank stare she got was enough, she went back into her room (remember, Battler saw her on the SECOND floor balcony. Kinzo's room is on the third) and shot herself, or else her accomplice killed her. Battler eventually dies from the poison, fulfilling Beatrices's red.

>> No.2738580

>>2738551
Oh wow, that fits perfectly. That HAS to be it. Probably. Although, if that is true, it also means that Jessica really is Beatrice, because Beatrice said in red that she was about to kill Battler.

>> No.2738644

>>2738541
Juuza is Beatrice.

>> No.2738655

Akasaka is Beatrice.

>> No.2738692

You know, I really like Jessica.
So I really hate how well the Jessica=Beatrice theory fits.

Say it ain't so, Ryuukishi!

>> No.2738705

>>2738644
>>2738655

YOU are Beatrice

>> No.2738710

>>2738580
Well,that has been my line of thinking for a while now. I originally tried thinking along those lines just as a mental excersize, but as I built upon that supposition, it kept gaining credibility in my mind.

The people theorizing about Kanon, and him being the original Battler or whatnot, do have some good ideas, and it's got a good factual basis, but the feeling of the whole theory just seems off. I can't come to grips with it. Yes, Kanon's body has a bad habit of dissapearing. It just feels wrong.

>> No.2738882

What's the "golden thread" in Episode 4?

>> No.2738912

>>2738882
Obviously, Kyrie reached L5.

>> No.2738949

>>2738882

This is the golden thread of Ep 4

>> No.2738972

>>2738882
Urine. Battler was pissing through the locks.

>> No.2738987

With Kumasawa and Gohda, I see two main possibilities. Either they intentionally tied the rope around their neck to trick the possible killer into thinking they're dead, but that backfired a whole lot when the killer poked a gun through the hole, and they were unable to run away. That or they're in cahoots with the killer, and they were willing to sacrifice their life for the sake of a closed room (which I highly doubt).

>> No.2739103

>>2738987
It has never been confirmed in red that there is only one key to the storage room. Though, I fail to see why the killer would lock the door yet position the corpses so they would be seen.

Here's a random footnote regarding the Jessica=Beato theory: When Battler says something about prefering black haired lolis (I forget the exact context) Beatrice shoots back 'A breast sommelier like you?' If Beatrice was some unknown 18th person who he had never met before, how could she have known that? It woudn't even really make much sense for it to be someone from 6 years ago, since I have trouble seeing a 12 year old really coming as being that lecherous. And a 12 year old Jessica and 10 year old Shannon probably didn't spark much interest in that regard anyway.

>> No.2739115

>>2739103
1st game with Shannon.

Battler loves them titties.

>> No.2739118

>>2739103
Battler was harassing the Stakes. I'm pretty sure Beato overheard him slobbering over their tits.

>> No.2739147
File: 676 KB, 900x1200, 1241575202094.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2739147

Battler loves them stakes.

>> No.2739164

>>2739115
>>2739118
Did they say this stuff in the meta world?
If they did then this is fine, but if not then those arguments are invalid as we are assuming that this was someone in disguise, not some magical being that can travel between realities.

>> No.2739171

>>2739164 here, to clarify that I meant the breast sommelier comment in ep4.

>> No.2739175

>>2739164
Well, we know that Beatrice has two different "personalities" with one in the meta-world and one in the game one. We also know that they were able to communicate.

So there may even be a way for even the meta-world to be explained by non-magical means.

>> No.2739198

>>2739164
Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

>> No.2739201

>>2739164
Yeah, Battler was harassing and being harassed by the Stakes in the meta world at the start of Episode 2.

>>2739147
Now I suddenly want to see a picture of Battler eating Beato's steaks.

>> No.2739228

>>2739201
>>2739198
I was talking about that breast sommelier comment in ep4, but I posted before I checked to see if what I said was coherent.

It means that if beato and battler started talking in the meta world about his love of titties then there would be no problem.
But if this supposed beatrice at the top of the mansion talking to battler made that comment, as we are assuming that this is in fact a person in disguise, which you could easily do at night in the middle of a storm high above the deceptee (I know I made up a word) then that means that this person must have already knew battler, as if she had just met him for the first time then she probably wouldn't mentioned his love for big'uns as she wouldn't have that knowledge.

>> No.2739297

>>2739103
Well that's an interesting take. We might be led to believe that it's meta-Beato talking when she said that she and Battler have already met multiple times.

In a real world perspective, it might also mean Beato was telling Battler that she was one of the 16 people Battler has already met in the island.

>> No.2739352

>>2739297

Cuz Jessica is Beatrice

Also, he has yet to meet anyone in the island. He couldn't get into the well, remember?

>>
Reply to thread [?]Don't expect anything heroic. Your post will not be uploaded to the original board.
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Action