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2385792 No.2385792 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

What does the ability to create history exactly mean?

>> No.2385801

nobody knows the exact details

inb4 stupid speculations and fanfictions

>> No.2385811

To lactate werecow milk.

>> No.2385813

>>2385801
>inb4 stupid speculations
Why do you say that? Threads with speculation are alright when people understand that speculation is all they're doing.

>> No.2385821

Do great men create history? Or does history create great men?

>> No.2385841
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2385841

>>2385821

>> No.2385850

God created us all at the very moment you read this post; but he created us with a false memory.

Everything you remember prior to this post is a fantasy, merely an illusion created by god's infinite power and genius.

>> No.2385855

>>2385801
>speculations and fanfictions

You're clearly new to this Touhou thing.

>> No.2385856

>>2385813
>when people understand that speculation is all they're doing

/jp/ lol

>> No.2385860 [DELETED] 

>>2385850

If that is true, reading your post and believing it would create a paradox.

>> No.2385864
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2385864

>>2385792

Exactly what it says it does.

No really, it is that simple.

>> No.2385869

>>2385855
newfag please

We all know only what the jap fans create counts, not western pigs

>> No.2385907

In regards to the past, I always saw it in a way where people would suddenly remember a specific event that Keine "created" if their previous paths would have allowed them to experience that event in the first place. I don't think she actually forms a physical object out of thin air by creating history, but it just gives people the impression that something happened. I suppose that it's possible that she actually makes the event actually occur in the past, and people suddenly disappear off the face of Gensokyo, but I don't see that happening.

In regards to the future, I'm not entirely sure yet. ZUN's dropped some ideas, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it. How does it exactly conflict with Remilia's ability to manipulate fate?

>The ability to create history is the same as creating the future.

Also, I'm not sure if this was meant to be related to Keine's abilities to change/delete history, but from the comments of "Limiting Edict 「Tsuki no Iwakasa's Curse」"

>A murder incident that has disappeared from history. An unsolved murder case that's rapidly approaching the statute of limitations. If nobody knows about it, it's no longer a crime.

>> No.2385952
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2385952

>>2385907

Put simply, Remi creates the future starting from the present, or from a point in the future (perhaps redundantly).
Keine creates the future from a point in the past. That is, the future viewed from that point is past history when viewed from the present.

>> No.2385981

>>2385907
>How does it exactly conflict with Remilia's ability to manipulate fate?
ZUN rarely mentions the limitations of an ability, so that seems like it's more or less up to the viewer. It's already been shown that Keine's ability, even as a human, is pretty fucking powerful, by managing to completely erase the history of the human village, and hide it from Reimu.

As for your idea that her ability doesn't really create or erase physical objects, it would explain why Reimu couldn't see the village, but Yukari could (or so she says). Then again, it's not really erased from memory seeing how Reimu remembered a village being there in the first place. So the strength of the "history erasing" might be directly related to the power of a person trying to recall that history.

More than likely though, it's just ZUN being ZUN, and you can pretty much take it any way you want.

>> No.2385991
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2385991

As to whether Keine manipulates actual physical occurences, or only the knowledge they occured, it isn't specified in any official material.

In the rare case fandom shows Keine's ability taken seriously, she's usually shown with the power to litterally make "none of this ever happened" and essentially reset a messed up plotline to status quo. But again, fandom.

>> No.2386006

>>2385952
So would there be any conflict? Is it something where the last change is the one that'll go through? Do they get an error message that someone is already accessing the file, and they have the option of opening a read-only version of the history file? I understand it's pretty much up to the person at this point of detail, but I'm curious about how other people see it.

>> No.2386024

>>2385952
Well that makes sense, seeing how history is pretty much past events only. I guess she's the opposite of Remilia in that aspect then?

>> No.2386033
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2386033

Filler text on STG character profile written by a drunk does not warrent this level of discussion or, for that matter, any discussion at all.

>> No.2386048
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2386048

>>2386006

It depends how you view it - whether you view time as a straight line or as a multiverse. But I'm a bit rusty when it comes to quantum physics, so I won't comment on that.
In either case, it's unlikely that there'd be a conflict. Part since whoever "accesses" last likely has no way of telling if history has already been altered by someone else. Part since Remi works with things that will happen, and Keine works with things that did happen (or as hakutaku, things that didn't happen).

>> No.2386061
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2386061

>>2386033
I think it's fun to talk about the Touhouverse like this as long as people don't argue and insult senselessly. I am sorry this sort of topic isn't your sort of thing, but luckily, we are fortunate to have the ability to make a topic that appeals to us if the board does not provide our conversational needs.

>> No.2386067

>>2386033
>Filler text on STG character profile written by a drunk does not warrent this level of discussion or, for that matter, any discussion at all.

>warrent

If you don't like the thread, hide it and go back to your subliterate worship of idols.

>> No.2386068

I always thought of it as a Lain-like power. "If no one remembers it happening, it never happened!"
That's not how the fandom treats it though.

>> No.2386076
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2386076

>>2386024

Bullseye.

>>2386033

Endure it, you know there will be horn porn later.

>> No.2386077

>>2386068

But they DO remember, they just can't see it

>> No.2386080

>>2386067
Do not be rude like that, please. ITT, we are discussing in a friendly, tolerant, yet care-free environment.

>> No.2386081

>>2386067
What makes you think he hates it? He even bumped the thread.

>> No.2386082

>>2386067
>>2386061

>I think it's fun to talk about the Touhouverse like this as long as people don't argue and insult senselessly.

It was nice while it lasted, I suppose.

After all, this IS 4chan.

>> No.2386126

>>2386077
That's how I see it too, even though it goes against what actually happened in the games. >>2385981 might be correct in that it might be related to the power of a person, but then it wouldn't explain why a lot of the others couldn't see it as well.

Then again, he could be right about ZUN being ZUN also.

>> No.2386144

>>2386033
The fact that it's written by a drunk makes it more interesting.

>> No.2386153
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2386153

>>2385981

On that note, Yukari is probably "immune" to Keine's influence. As she is a boundary youkai, she probably doesn't perceive objects as physical forms, but as parameters that describe them.

A way to explain it would be saying that if an object doesn't exist, other people don't perceive it since - obviously - it isn't there.
Yukari on the other hand perceives the fact that the object isn't there, as the other parameters than "existence" are unchanged.

I really have way too much time on my hands.

>> No.2386187

>>2386153
That's a neat thought on it.

I just sort of waved at it and said, "Yukari might just be messing with Keine."

>> No.2386205

>>2386153
That's confusing. Could you describe it again, but this time, using the situation in IN with the disappearing human village as the example?

>> No.2386223

>>2386153
>>2386205
It would also be useful if you described how you think Keine's ability works.

>> No.2386354
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2386354

>>2386223

In this example, reading it as that Keine actually changes what has happened, not just the knowledge that it happened.

>>2386205

Okay, let's put it this way...
Let's say the village has the following basic parameters:

Founding date: Positive
Size: Positive
Appearance: Positive

When Keine changes the history of the village, she simply alters history so that the village was never founded, and so isn't there in present day.

Founding date: Negative
Size: Positive
Appearance: Positive

This is the only part that needs to be changed. Since the village isn't founded, there is no way to perceive the size or appearance of it - nothing hints that it ever could exist.

Reimu perceives the village in a purely physical sense. As the village was not founded, it's not there, so she obviously can't see it.
Yukari perceives the village in an abstract sense - she sees the parameters that describe the village.

Founding date: Negative - She sees that the village has not been founded.
Size: Positive - She sees that the village would have these dimensions if it had been founded.
Appearance: Positive - She sees how the village would appear if it had been founded.

To her, if a parameter that describes something is changed, it simply moves to the other side of the Y/N boundary.

>> No.2386375
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2386375

TL;DR - Yukari sees both the forest AND all the trees.

>> No.2386577 [DELETED] 

>>2386354
>>2386375
Oh. That's neat. I don't agree with it, but it's neat regardless.

>> No.2386610
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2386610

Keine is a filthy teleologist, just like Marx.

>> No.2386622

>>2386354
Oh. It's lot clearer now. That's an interesting take on Keine's ability and Yukari's perception of the world, even though I disagree with it. My perception of Yukari seems wholly different than yours, which is likely why we have entirely different ideas when it comes to why she can "see" the village.

>> No.2386638

>>2386354
THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!!

>> No.2386655
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2386655

>>2386622

Yeah, it's only speculation.

>>2386638

Of course it isn't. Done is done, you can't change history. But it works in the context of an STG with monster lolis.

>> No.2386663

>>2386655
Not even that

>> No.2386677
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2386677

>>2386663

... or DID it?

The Great and Wise Hakutaku holds many secrets.

>> No.2387002
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2387002

>>2386354
I sorta agree and disagree wit this theory. I see it as Yukari was unaffected by Keine's change and ACTUALLY saw the village as it should. After all, Yukari has a capability to literally make "nothing from something", or rather, see between the boundaries of existent and nonexistent. Keine made it so the human village "never existed". Yukari has so many ways of changing boundaries to get the bigger picture, I won't go into detail. Let's just say, all she needed to do was look to the other side, the "nonexistent" side, and "see the humans as usual..."

Yukari -1
Wool - 0

>> No.2387034
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2387034

>>2387002

Think we're on the same frequency here, but your explanation is a lot clearer and isolates the basic concept.

I'll go with you on this.

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