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1557204 No.1557204 [Reply] [Original]

I wonder how Kishima Kouma compares with Servants. Is he as fast as them? He should be significantly stronger than most in terms of raw strength. What about endurance? Would Kouma be instantly cut apart by a normal attack from a Servant?

>> No.1557210

I believe that Nasu said that he could hold his own against an average-level Servant.

However, as there is no benchmark for Servants and Nasu has no fucking clue what he's talking about, I would not consider that fact as useful.

>> No.1557212

ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki

>> No.1557214

>>1557212
>Gilgamesh>Arcueid
wat

>> No.1557222

>>1557212

We've been over this. This is far from correct. Nasuverse powerlevels DO NOT WORK IN A LINIER FASHION. Such a chart only exists to make people look ignorant and to induce rage.

>> No.1557223

>>1557214
long sad story. in short, Gilgamesh can blow up planets and Arc IS a planet.

>> No.1557224

>>1557214

Q. Whose stronger, Gilgamesh or Arcueid (30%)? While Arcueid has the strength of 4 Servants, I remember reading a scene in hollow where Gil was the equivalent of 5 Servants + a.
A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output can be changed in accordance with her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is only allowed an output that is slightly stronger than her opponent. So. Single entity ability of Arc to a Servant is roughly the same.

Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with.

For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons, and with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "unit ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see?

And the 5 Servants + a is simply a comparison in terms of "firepower". Like with the "corpses", where each won't have to bother fending off attacks from foot soldier level opponents, the one who'd have the lead is the one who has the more weapons. In Broad Bridge, the reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.

>> No.1557225

This troll might have been successful if you hadn't already screwed up here:

>ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch Zeltrech kills Crimson Moon regardless of which scenario occurs.

>> No.1557226

>>1557214
World powered monster, meet world destroying sword.

Gilgamesh has far more raw power than Arc.

>> No.1557228

>>1557214

Nasu said Gil could beat 30% Arc, which is what's measured.

>> No.1557229

>>1557224

Note: A bunch of different ways of interpreting this from what I've seen. The 4 times amount mentioned in previous Kinoko comments earlier could be the maximum amount of Arc in her 30% state that she gets depending on how powerful her enemy is. Or something similar, but on average she's going to be less than that. Base stats could be the same as one average Servant, but due to the Counter Force modifier this is adjusted to 2 times the amount of one Servant (not factoring in Noble Phantasm powers or amounts; probably the equivalent of Berserker).

Mrm, either way this is a mess. Ultimate form of Counter-Force 30% Arc = 30%. Servants and base Arc = 7.5%, while anti-Servant Arc is 15%?

Or maybe 30% Arc (with adjustment) = 2 Servants.

>> No.1557230

>>1557222
>Corpse > [several living people]

I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously.

>> No.1557232

>>1557225
And Saber kills Gil, this does not take plot into account.

>> No.1557234

>>1557232

Gil only loses because he got really fucking cocky.

>> No.1557257

>>1557230
I think it means those corpses (more like bones) that Caster animates.

>> No.1557272

>>1557212

Shiki can kill all of them if he's sufficiently prepared.

>> No.1557274

Nasu power levels do not make sense because they all of them are either extremely weak or extremely powerful
There is not standard where to measure them

>> No.1557280

>>1557232
Zeltrech killing Crimson Moon happens before Tsukihime even occurs is what I'm saying. Saber kills Gil in FSN.

>> No.1557283

>>1557274
More like they're not powerlevels at all actually, more like Rock Paper Scissors.

See Assassin vs Kotomine or Archer vs Gil for examples.

>> No.1557290

>>1557234

Like always. Durr. Only time he took out Ea first was when he was forced to and he got pissed about it.

>> No.1557293
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1557293

>>1557234
His arrogance is why we love him. Also he didn't lose because of his arrogance so much as because of retarded plot hax. Sheathe should have just PROTECTED, not DEFLECTED.

>> No.1557305

>>1557293
Your point? Avalon protected Saber from Ea, Gilgamesh was unable to defend himself from Saber's counterattack because he put too much power into Ea.

>> No.1557312

Who would win in a fight, Original Roa or Soren Araya?

>> No.1557316

This went on a tangent, what I'm wondering is whether would be unscathed by a normal hit from, say, Saber, and if a hit from him would tear her apart (assuming he's somehow able to hit spiritual beings).

>> No.1557317

>>1557293
>retarded plot hax

See, the Nasuverse does not actually have powerlevels. It has this. Whoever Nasu's plot determines will win will win somehow, no matter how unlikely it seems.

>> No.1557318

>>1557312

Definitely Original Roa. Original Roa could kill ORT.

>> No.1557320

>>1557305

If he'd just stood spamming gate of babylowned all day non stop at full force saber would die.

There is jack shit she can do about it.

>> No.1557322
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1557322

>>1557312
taiga

>> No.1557323

>>1557317
And? This is how it should be, only retards make powerlevels first and then build the story around them.

>> No.1557325

>>1557316

Kouma can block hits from Saber but if she hit him in an unprotected spot he'd probably die.

He doesn't stand a chance vs Excalibur.

He could kill Saber if he surprises her and basically rips her head off straight away.

>> No.1557330

>>1557323
Exactly. What I meant was that powerlevel arguments are pointless.

>> No.1557333

>>1557312

Oh fuck, Original Roa. No doubt about it. Fuck Soren and his little Godhax building. Original Roa would tear it down with twenty Ea sized lightning bolts in succession. He's fucking God Pikachu.

>> No.1557327

>>1557320
Gilgamesh can't spam his gate all day long. He has to wait for the nps to be restocked before he can use them again.

>> No.1557338

>only retards screw consistency and pull plot hax out their ass to make the story go where they want.

Fixed.

>> No.1557344

>>1557327

No he doesn't.

He can spam it unlimited all day if he wants, the NPs can just keep spawning.

He has EVERY SINGLE ONE EVER.

That is an infinite amount. They can spawn while he shoots, and he barely needs to do anything to get it to work.

He can blow up a fucking planet with Ea if he feels like it.

Gilgamesh ONLY loses because of his cockiness.

>> No.1557346

>>1557344
>Gilgamesh ONLY loses because of plot devices.

>> No.1557353

Kouma is stronger than Berserker. Berserker needs a full swing with his weapon to break stone or hack through tree trunks; Kouma can crush a redwood in the palm of his hand, and rip a person's head off so fast that they didn't feel it happening.

>> No.1557354

>>1557344

This is the funniest post in the entirety of 4chan. It's just so, so wrong it's not even rage worthy.

>> No.1557357

luvia is the strongest.

>> No.1557361

>>1557344
He doesn't have limitless number of nps. He has several hundred, probably thousands that he can use as projectiles then he has all the other shit like spaceships and mirrors, but after he's used one once as a projectile he has to wait for it to be restocked before he can use it again. Unlimited Blade Works actually is unlimited, Gate of Babylon is not.

>> No.1557366

>>1557353

Berserker's Strength and Speed = Kouma's Strength and Speed.

Berserker is just using a sword for range. If he wasn't, they'd be about equal.

>> No.1557367

>>1557330
But a good plot would NOT rely upon such obvious plot hax. The protagonist should EARN the final victory without such help.

>> No.1557375

Crimson Moon vs Arihiko

That would be awesome.

>> No.1557380

So...What is Primate Murder?

>> No.1557388

>>1557380
a dog that murders primates

>> No.1557396

>>1557375
Arihiko hides behind the couch , which so happens to be Crimson-Moons weakness and how Zelretch defeated him.

>> No.1557400

>>1557366
Yeah but...Well, does things seen in Melty Blood apply in these kind of discussions?
If so, doesn't Kouma have crazy fire powers too?

>> No.1557410

>>1557380
The white beast of Gaia that was created to reap humans.

>> No.1557412

>>1557410
Doesn't seem like it's doing its job very well then.

>> No.1557416

>>1557412
It only came out in ancient times, apparently.

Altrouge made it her pet dog.

>> No.1557420

>>1557400

Kouma's fire power comes from his ogre side. But we really shouldn't base things on what we see in Melty Blood, considering we have Shiki and Nanaya being able to wound Kouma without the lines of death.

>> No.1557425

>>1557400

Of course. Roa’s and Aoko’s Kabbalah magic too, though they could probably spam their magic in much greater quantities than what’s seen in the game.

Kouma is the pinnacle of demon blood in this era. He's not even experienced the inversion impulse yet. Or maybe he was just BORN inverted. Well, regardless, Kouma's got crazy Kishu/Oni fire abilities, kind of like Akiha, except, unlike with her, his powers are much purer and closer to what actual Kishu/Oni did: just the generation of fire.

He's a perfect human (if you can even call him that) killing machine; he has an easier time killing than talking. He killed the entire Kishima family as a little boy (he finished them off for Kiri). Makihisa and him are buds, though, the former considering him an acceptable houseguest.

In short, he and Berserker Heracles are a perfect match, through and through.

>> No.1557423

>>1557420
You can wound him. Kiri nearly killed him, or rather, would have killed him with a little more power. Just have to hit the right spot.

>> No.1557428
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1557428

>>1557425

And to think, Kiri had a chance at ending both of their lives on that job.

Stupid Kiri.

>> No.1557431

>>1557410
>>1557380
>Primate
>White beast
Back in my days, we didn't have the Yeti in our power-level charts and we liked it that way.

>> No.1557447

>>1557425

So wait. How broken would Shiki be if he had the full training with his father instead of just enough to fend for himself?

>> No.1557448

>>1557431
Not a Yeti. A huge white wolf dog.

Think Fenrir.

>> No.1557451

>>1557431

It murders primates, hence "Primate Murder." It isn't actually one.

>> No.1557455

>>1557425
Wait...So are you saying around other demons like himself...

Wait.
Is he the Tohno Shiki of Demons?

>> No.1557456

>>1557448
I liked my idea of a super-Yeti better. Norse mythology already did the wolf-dog thing.

>> No.1557458

>>1557455

The Kishimas were compared to the Nanayas in the story itself.

>> No.1557463

>>1557458
Damn I need to get around to playing Kagetsu Tohya.

I'm just so laaaaazy.

>> No.1557475

>>1557447

Not as much as he has now, considering his dad would have had to survive for such a thing to occur. His dad surviving means he no longer gets adopted by Makihisa, which means he no longer gets involved with the clusterfuck of events Roa causes, and this means he no longer has the MEoDP.

He'll have mad assassin skills and probably low-level Mystic Eyes that allow him to see peoples auras or something kinda weak like that, but nothing more. He wouldn't be able to kill Arc, Nrvnqsr, Roa, or do any of the cool stuff in Tsukihime he did.

>> No.1557484

You know, for a power level thread this is actually quite informative and constructive.

>> No.1557487

>>1557475
Would probably end up being sent to kill Akiha at some point.

Delicious hate fight. Maybe sex.

>> No.1557491

>>1557475

Oh, by the way, this is if Kiri even teaches Shiki to be an assassin, since he decided that he didn't want his son to lead the same cursed life he did at the end of Red Demon God.

>> No.1557496

I want to see a Kouma vs Berserker doujin. Actually, a Kouma vs anything doujin that actually portrays how awesomely powerful he is.

>> No.1557497

I just realized. Isn't Akiha's power and Fujino's power pretty much the same thing? Except, you know, instead of bending, it's vaporizing.

>> No.1557507

>>1557497

No.

>> No.1557513

>>1557497

Akiha doesn't vaporize anything. It just sucks heat and gives it to her while "burning" the target. She can also trap people with the power, but against enemies, specifically vampires, who don't particularly care about heat and can easily take pain, it's as annoying as walking through a spider-web.

Fujino, at the end of Remaining Sense of Pain, can twist to death ANYTHING around her for about a kilometer.

>> No.1557514

>>1557497
Akiha's power comes from demons. Asagami's from psychic power.

One is unnatural, the other is human origin.

>> No.1557531

This makes me wonder on the relationship between demonic powers and magecraft. Do they have the former have their own version of magic circuits, and use environmental mana?

Perhaps they just have insane amounts of prana.

>> No.1557540

>>1557513
>against enemies, specifically vampires, who don't particularly care about heat and can easily take pain, it's as annoying as walking through a spider-web.

Not quite true. SHIKI was fully vampire thanks to Roa, but in Kohaku's route Akiha has no trouble destroying him. SHIKI even tries at one point to escape through a web of hair, but he stops when he realizes that it would kill him.

>> No.1557548

>>1557513

Yeah, I suppose in terms of destructive power, I guess Fujino's magare~ wins. Still, Akiha's heat draining seems almost instant if she wants it to be. It seemed like Ryougi could cut through Fujino's power before it did anything, but Nanaya couldn't completely prevent the plundering.

>> No.1557551

>>1557531

It's never quite explained. Psychics definitely use circuits, but I'm not sure if that's the case for half-kishu. I'd assume they do it the same way kishu/oni do, but that's never shown either.

>> No.1557552

>>1557513
more of drain life and tosses it back at people.

>> No.1557556

>>1557514
I thought human powers where the unnatural ones...

>> No.1557562

>>1557361

He has a limitless amount, it's every single Noble Phantasm that has existed and will ever exist.

He has to wait for that particular one to restock but he does not have to wait to use different ones instead.

The reason UBW > GOB is because GOB has startup and UBW has none at all. Once GOB gets up he can keep it going but the Phantasms will just get destroyed as soon as they spawn.

>> No.1557565

>>1557540

Yeah, I realized after I posted that SHIKI gets fucked up by it often, so there may be a physical element to the hair as well. For Arc, at least, according to Nasu, using the exact term "spider-web," this is definitely true, though.

>>1557548

The difference between Ryougi and Nanaya's eyes is staggering in this situation, since she can easily perceive the strands without a single consequence and finds pseudo-physical things pitifully easy to destroy.

>> No.1557566

Demons come from the imaginary element. They're formed by human thought. As far as Gaia is concerned, they shouldn't exist.

Psychic power is a human origin. It falls within the boundaries of nothing. It's truly unique, a power which can upset magecraft, demonic power, and nature.

>> No.1557569

>>1557562
>He has a limitless amount, it's every single Noble Phantasm that has existed and will ever exist.

Gilgemesh was a cool guy but even he isn't that hax. Remember that he lost to Saber in the previous grail war.

>> No.1557574

>>1557562
No he does not have every noble phantasm that has ever existed or will exist. He has prototypes, he owned all the treasures in the world during his life. Anything that came after his time he does not own. He doesn't have Excalibur for instance.

>> No.1557577

>>1557566

ATTENTION:

KISHU/ONI =/= TRUE DEMONS/AKUMA =/= FALSE DEMONS/AGONISTS.

>> No.1557576

>>1557565
>For Arc, at least, according to Nasu, using the exact term "spider-web," this is definitely true, though.

Yes, but Arc is a True Anscestor, not just your everyday vampire.

>> No.1557580

>>1557569

He didn't lose, he was duking it out with her when Kiritsugu ordered the destruction of the grail.

>> No.1557581

>>1557569
They didn't really get to fight in the 4th war, it was quickly ended by Kiritsugu ordering Saber to destroy the grail.

>> No.1557588

>>1557566

You're wrong. Kishu and True Demons are not the same. Same thing with the demons that possess people. Learn the difference. It might save your life. I bet an Angra Mainyu on it.

>> No.1557594

>>1557588
>>1557577

Well, Oni are still unnatural. I was speaking about the theoretical ones, though. Not the ones that Akiha's line get their power from.

>> No.1557614

>>1557317
When you think about the fact that there are countless possibilities due to an infinite number of alternate universes, there is no "plot hax." It is just our take using our limited perspective of a particular instance.

If you were given an infinite number of chances to flip a quarter and get one-hundred heads in a row, you'd eventually do it. As long as the probability isn't zero, it's a possible outcome given infinite chances.

>> No.1557613

>>1557447
Not very, since it'd mean he'd have utterly huge spider-man reflexes and killing ability, and no Mystic Eyes of Death Perception since his clan would still be alive and the Tohno's would likely be dead.

>>1557540
>>1557513
The more spiritually saturated the target, the less Akiha's ability will work on them. Summarily, a nature spirit/fairy will shrug her off (Shinso--Arcueid, Eirei and Natural fairies), but things like unnaturals are still privy to her Cage of Hair influence (Dead Aposltes: technically NOT natural spirits, since the Earth is consistently trying to destroy their bodies, despite the mind and soul being made immortal through Shinso/magic-influenced means).

>> No.1557618

>>1557594

Kishu/Oni are actually very natural. They're part of the Phantasm Races, and they're completely possible by definition of the world, unlike demons, who are just the opposite.

>> No.1557623

>>1557531
I think it all falls under the same category as psychics: pseudo magic circuits that occur under a particular circumstance. It's likely that demons do have an amount of circuits, just that it will never be cultivated like mages would cultivate them. SHIKI was chosen, after all, for his magic power potential and social/financial standing.

>> No.1557646
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1557646

>>1557574
There are several dozen and more objects in that vault that came to be long after Gilgamesh's demise. Lu Bu's halberd, for one instance. Gae Bolg for another. It's just that what's in that vault is what Nasu WANTS in the vault/ what classifies as an ample enough rumor/NP for Gil to possess--simple as that.

>> No.1557685

>>1557496
There are two doujin's I've seen with Kouma.
Kouma vs Berserker. Kouma twinkie housed Berserker and his sword.

Another is Kouma vs SUPER M.Hisui.
Can't find it anymore but shit's pretty awesome.

>> No.1557699

>>1557646
He has the prototype of Gae Bolg. Stop trying to refute this, Nasu has outlined GoB as such.

>> No.1557737

>>1557685

For the former, is it the famous FNS/Tsukihime crossover doujin I've heard about?

>> No.1557769

>>1557737
I doubt it's famous

>> No.1557775
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1557775

>>1557769
oops forgot my pic

>> No.1557791

>>1557775
Another blow to fatefags.

>> No.1557794

/r/ Kouma x Suika doujins

A Yugi is fine too

>> No.1557809

>>1557791

First Shiki kills Berserker. Then Roa kills Assassin. Now Kouma kills Berserker.

Tsukihime > Fate. Japan agrees.

>> No.1557832

>>1557809
>Then Roa kills Assassin

What? Where?

>> No.1557928

>>1557832
Type Moon Complex X 03. He doesn't kill--they're about to fight for reels. To be concluded in 04.

>>
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