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15401770 No.15401770 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

A Touhou fangame was featured at E3
How does this make you feel? Proud? Horrified?

>> No.15401774

I don't really feel anything

>> No.15401775

I feel like chicken tonight.

>> No.15401819

>>15401775
Like chicken tonight!

>> No.15401852

Oh, and for a serious response:
I don't really care, but I do question the supposed "doujin spirit" that gets mentioned when things like this exist.
I wish ZUN would allow his games to get officially translated and localized, but I think that ship has sailed.

>> No.15401944

>>15401770
hopefully it means the beggining of more mainstream touhou games in the west

>> No.15401966

>>15401774
Unsurprising. You have been doomed since you lost the capacity to love.

>> No.15401986
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15401986

I don't give a shit.

>> No.15401995
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15401995

>>15401770
I didn't know that one was getting localized as well, so I'm pretty stoked! Buying stuff via Japanese PSN always makes me feel a little uneasy.
On the other hand, I agree with >>15401852. These localization efforts will result in a purely commercial product, and in addition, I'm still questioning whether introducing Touhou to a large Western player base through doujinshi(-shi) is a sensible move.

>> No.15402029

>>15401995
Let's not pretend that most people here not getting hooked to Touhou through its doujin works.

>> No.15402060

>>15402029
Yes, but that's why I was being specific about the possible target audience.
For the most part, you'd have to spend some time on the Internet to come into contact with the girls on this side of the globe.
Getting to know them is an individual journey, and newcomers are trickling in at a rather slow pace.
What I'm getting at, is that uncontrolled growth is dangerous and possibly fatal. I think ZUN is risking a lot with entrusting a (relatively) big company with the localizations.
IOSYS's height of popularity was before my times, but I've seen some rather perturbing fallout, which I am taking as reference for my worries.

>> No.15402078

I'm excited but not hyped, I love having more fans for 2hu.

>> No.15402094

It's too late for ZUN to commercialize it on the West.
I'm actually grateful, although a 3rd party product was needed to make the breakthrough at least it's something.

>> No.15402127

Scarlet Curiosity.
Sounds like something I could fap to.

>> No.15402140

I don't want it to get popular in the west.

>> No.15402198

>>15401770
I feel a sudden urge to suck cock

>> No.15402208

>>15402140
touhou? it already is

or was, it hit it's peak long ago

>> No.15402209

>>15402198
Story of my life.

>> No.15402211

>>15401770
How much is zun receiving for this?

>> No.15402231

>>15402198
Feeling it.

>> No.15402270

>>15401986
^

>> No.15402307
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15402307

>>15402060
>ZUN is risking a lot with entrusting a (relatively) big company with the localizations.
Abandon all hope then when this is the quality of localization that you'll get.

>> No.15402319
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15402319

>>15402307
I have difficulties taking this at face value.

>> No.15402321

>>15402307
You'll have to provide context if you want to demonstrate that that's bad localization.

>> No.15402344

>>15402321
For what reason the publisher change their name to western order when this game is set in oriental fantasy setting and her name is Mononobe no Futo?

>> No.15402347

>>15402307
Google yields no results, and since the game this is from is far off from a Western release, I call bullshit.

>> No.15402358

>>15402347
Try harder faggot.
https://twitter.com/_jyunya/status/742336992755605504

>> No.15402361

>>15402344
Because that's the name order prevalent in the English speaking world. If you're complaining about that, then your issue isn't that it's a bad localization but rather that it's localized at all.

>> No.15402376

>>15402361
It's not that it's bad localization, it's that it's bad translation.

>> No.15402377

>>15402361
But not translating it as "Futo of (the) Mononobe (clan)" is plain wrong.

>>15402358
Rude desu.

>> No.15402400

>>15402361
Did the japanese change Jack Bauer's name into バウアー・ジャック when they were airing 24 -TWENTY FOUR-?
Or change House's name into ハウス・グレゴリー when they were airing Dr.House?

>> No.15402406

>>15402376
And his claim was that it's bad localization. I have attacked that claim. I make no statement regarding the quality of the translation.

>>15402377
A localization is the process of converting a work such that a different audience can enjoy it. This does often imply a minor divergence from the original work. "Futo of the Mononobe clan" is a more accurate translation, but without the knowledge of what the Mononobe clan is or how it relates to the character and/or plot it does not provide more meaning to the end consumer. "Futo of Mononobe" is, while not wrong, very awkward in English while not providing more information than "Futo Mononobe" would.
In all three possible translations, a reader familiar with the Mononobe clan will understand that Futo is of the Mononobe clan and all that implies while a reader unfamiliar will not see any meaningful difference.

>>15402400
My experience is that Japanese conserve name order for foreign names while English speakers do not.

>> No.15402413

>>15402406
>Japanese conserve name order for foreign names while English speakers do not.
For example?

>> No.15402434

>>15402406
>process of converting a work such that a different audience can enjoy it.
What a strange definition, it's almost as if localization has nothing to do with locality whatsoever.

>> No.15402440

>>15402413
Correction, upon basic research I see I have no clue what Japanese localizations do with English name order, I've seen it done both ways now.

Either way, a localization into Japanese should use whichever name order makes sense for a Japanese audience. The name order in the source work and/or language is irrelevant.

>> No.15402444

>>15402361
>It isn't that it's a bad localization but rather that it's localized at all.
A good localization is the one that know where to put a line for their localization, you don't expect a company to localize onigiri as jelly donuts do you?

>> No.15402451 [DELETED] 

>>15402413
Japanes names are rendered using the Western naming convention in basically every English work that exists.

>> No.15402454

>>15402444
Japanese names are rendered using the Western naming convention in basically every English work that exists.

>> No.15402455

>>15402406
>that a different audience
Groups sharing a very specific interest are often homogeneous.

>> No.15402458

If Localization is good or necessary for appreciating creative works, why are Shakespeare's works widely read in their original form and not updated, modernized versions that the average English speaker can understand immediately?

>> No.15402473

>>15402444
I would expect any halfway competent localization to refer to onigiri as either riceballs or some other food depending on the context, mainly on if the onigiri is actually shown to the viewer.
In the theoretical example of "A buys B a lunch, B comments on how A got them the brand of onigiri they liked", with the lunch being eaten off-screen so the onigiri are not shown, basically any food that might be in a purchased lunch would be acceptable. On the other hand, if the onigiri is shown then it becomes necessary to either call it what it is, a riceball, or redraw it.

>>15402455
>Groups sharing a very specific interest are often homogeneous.
Across language and national barriers? You'll need to cite that claim.

>>15402458
Because updating the prose without breaking the rhyme scheme or losing artistic information would be nearly impossible.

>> No.15402485

>>15402473
>Because updating the prose without breaking the rhyme scheme or losing artistic information would be nearly impossible.
I worded that poorly. "Artistic information" should be "symbolism, metaphor, and word usage patterns".

>> No.15402492

>>15402307
that not a bow it's a giant red moth

>> No.15402498

>>15402473
>prose without breaking the rhyme scheme
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.15402506

>>15402492
I'm pretty sure they're devil horns.

>> No.15402509

>>15402498
Then provide a counterargument and demonstrate yourself to be correct.

>> No.15402515

>>15402498
Iambic pentameter is not a "rhyme scheme," but it's pretty close.

The real people who don't know what they're talking about the hyper-weebs who insist that everybody be left exactly as it was in the original Japanese, even when not one in ten could tell you what the significance of "no" in a Japanese name.

>> No.15402526

>>15402458
Comparing this to Shakespeare's works is a bit extreme.
Also, in contrast, the Divine Comedy has a host of well-respected translations into other languages - which ended up being eligible for the term "localisations" as well, since they not only had to preserve rhetoric and structure, but also the four layers of symbolism common to literature of that time.
The thing is, you can change the text as long as you leave the message untouched.
A change in name such as >>15402307
clearly violates this.

>> No.15402535

>>15402458
I'm not from a English speaking country and I read translated ("localized") version of Romeo and Juliet in school.
Only when I got older, I read the original version of Macbeth, also in school.

>> No.15402553

>>15402526
>A change in name such as >>15402307 clearly violates this.
How the fuck do you know that it changes original message if you don't have neither original text nor context? I doubt Futo wanted to say something about her clan in that dialogue.
Also without switching order new players may think that Mononobe is her first name.

>> No.15402566

>>15402509
Your self-contradictory use of terminology indicates that not only are you ignorant in the subject being discussed, but are speaking in ignorance regardless. Because of this, anything you say is now questioned as a willful or unintended lie.

Furthermore, your answer fails to account for every other instance of classical English literature, not just poetic, that is still coming from a very different culture than that of a typical modern English speaker.

tl;dr, you have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.15402573
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15402573

>>15402553
But Futo of the Mononobe is her name.
What? Do you mean to say that it's okay to lie if the other doesn't know?

>> No.15402588

>>15402566
>Furthermore, your answer fails to account for every other instance of classical English literature, not just poetic, that is still coming from a very different culture than that of a typical modern English speaker.
Nobody reads Beowulf in the original because it's completely incomprehensible. Classical Japanese is "localized" into contemporary Japanese all the time. People figure out how far something needs to go to make sense, and then do it.

>>15402573
Her actual name is 物部布都 and it doesn't have a の anywhere in it. Chew on that one.

>> No.15402595

>>15402535
Romeo and Juliet is widely paraphrased and altered moreso than any other Shakespearean work. I'd go so far as saying most children who know of Romeo and Juliet don't even know it ended as a tragedy.

>> No.15402599

>>15402595
romeo and juliet is a top twenty taylor swift song

>> No.15402610
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15402610

Is this some sort of prank? Am I being bamboozled?

>> No.15402614

>>15401770
Personally, I'm horrified at the fact that games like these, developed on a PC in x86 code and OpenGL graphics routines are likely going to be PS4 exclusive. Did ZUN really allow this? Did he really sell out Touhou and give in to money-grubbing publishers?

On one hand I'm excited that the Touhou franchise is finally getting officially released in the West, but more than that I'm disgusted at the way it's happening. On the bright side, since PS4 is literally a PC so emulation might be easier than with previous-generation consoles.

>> No.15402615
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15402615

So this is what is inferred by Foto's- I mean Mononobe no Futo's - I mean 物部 布都's authentic Japanese name.
I understand things can be serious here with some attempting to establish a hierarchy of worthiness (secondary, EOP, etc), but is this really worth arguing about?

>> No.15402625
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15402625

I bet the Wicked Hermit did this.

>> No.15402626

>>15402610
Did you miss Touhou 14 being sold digitally? It being sold to overseas? Play Doujin (or whatever it's called) for PS4 with doujin games. At least two Touhou x some arcade rhythm shit collabs. ULiL on PS4.

ZUN needs money to feed his son.

>> No.15402630

>>15402626
I was really more referring to this thread.

>> No.15402646

>>15402615
http://www.h3.dion.ne.jp/~oneone-p/ii/no.html

Translate it, weeaboos.

>> No.15402658

>>15402588
Updating language is not the same thing as updating culture. If something simply cannot be read in its written language then it needs to be translated. However this (and most cases regarding Japanese localization) cannot be called translation, it is systematically stripping cultural meaning from the work purely on the basis of it being unfamiliar to laymen.

Take Mononobe no Futo for example, she is not in a work that was written centuries ago, she was given by that name by a modern author because he personally saw meaning in her having that name, specifically the fact that it reflects the old period she came from. The localization in >>15402307 completely disregards that meaning and erases it from her character outright. It's an insult to the author and a complete failure within the standards of translation.

>> No.15402660
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15402660

>>15402625
Here's the situation.
NISA, being busy as usual with injecting hardware-breaking bugs into Disgaea titles, tasked one single employee with the localisation.
Completely unaware of what Touhou is even about, but wary of the autism common within otaku and their Western equivalents, conferred his request for deliberation to the biggest treasure of Touhou-related information - the Touhou Wiki (the better one).
I mean, it's got to have some merit, right? It's a wiki, and the interface doesn't look like it's designed by a twelve year old.

>> No.15402661

>>15401770
It's one of 3 fangames coming out already. There's also Touhou Gensou Wanderer via Xseed.

More than one company is banking on it. ULiL western when

>> No.15402673

>>15402610
Source?
Art isnt bad and Shou a cute.

>> No.15402690
File: 546 KB, 862x1920, --finn-fn-2199-reisen-and-reisen-udongein-inaba-star-wars-star-wars-the-force-awakens-and-touhou-drawn-by-gapangman--d4f0bb64748a4e2d5a4b52587f5eab67.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15402690

>>15402673

>> No.15402705

>>15402658
>The localization in >>15402307 completely disregards that meaning and erases it from her character outright
You still don't have context. Very likely original text completely dropped Futo's canon archaic talk. Author could be just introducing her in classical Japanese "Last name First name" style without any emphasis on her clan and backstory.

>> No.15402710
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15402710

>>15402705

>> No.15402744

>>15402705
I feel like that's besides the point. You're not disagreeing on Mononobe no Futo -> Futo Mononobe being a bad translation, so much as you're saying they might not be using Mononobe no Futo in the first place in that instance.

Obviously if the character is speaking contemporary Japanese for whatever reason then translating it as such is perfectly sensible.

I do however think the whole switching last-first to first-last thing is horseshit. Japanese in their setting have a specific reason for using their ways of referring to eachother, and those reasons are of direct relevance to the characters and the story. How English people normally refer to eachother is not relevant to a story about Japanese characters in Japan speaking in Japanese.

>> No.15402795

>>15402744
>Japanese in their setting have a specific reason for using their ways of referring to eachother, and those reasons are of direct relevance to the characters and the story
But it doesn't always mean it's intentional and it have any meaning for that character. For example in English when referring to a single person people use word "you" instead of "thou". There is historical and cultural reason for that and there are different undertones for both of these forms. But it doesn't matter. People say "you" just because everyone says it without thinking much about history and context. People say "you" even when they have higher status and have absolutely no respect for their interlocutor. But when translating English to text to other languages this second plural form is always translated as single plural form.
This is how localization works.

>> No.15402807

>>15402658
>specifically the fact that it reflects the old period she came from.
It's not just a reflection of period. She has that name because Japan has several kinds of "last names," and in this case Mononobe is the name of a formally recognized clan, so their clan names get "no" stuck on the end. ZUN is merely following the correct historical convention when he named Mononobe-no-Futo. If stripping away that context is insulting in any way, it's more of an insult to the people who actually lived during the Classical Japanese period rather than anything ZUN needs to feel personally insulted about.

On the other hand, the "Toyosatomimi" in Toyosatomimi-no-Miko is not an old clan name. It may not even be her real last name at all, given that it's an informal descriptive title that she had in life and members of the imperial household don't have last names at all. Got any suggestions for translating that one?

Context is being lost, but I maintain that it's not context that anybody in the West knows or cares about.

>> No.15402824

While I like xseed for their minimal censorship policy and such their translations are pretty shitty. Does this game have voice work in it?

One of the more jarring things while playing senran kagura was when the characters would say something that was clearly poorly translated. Things like how someone would say a one word answer and a whole sentence would appear in text.

On the plus side, at least it probably won't be as shitty a job as the one nisa is doing. I'd rather have xseed take on the job of translating touhou games since they've at least shown an interest in text heavy games before.

>> No.15402844

I'm glad, this means more EoSD media produced :^)

>>15402307
triggered

>> No.15402860

its over touhou is dead

>> No.15402887

>>15402807
This is a stronger argument for translating the dialogue as "I am Futo of the Mononobe clan" than anything said in the thread so far, so I'm not sure what you're actually trying to argue here.

>> No.15402890

>>15402795
>But it doesn't always mean it's intentional and it have any meaning for that character.
There is no such thing as a word without meaning.

>For example in English when referring to a single person people use word "you" instead of "thou". There is historical and cultural reason for that and there are different undertones for both of these forms.
No disagreement here.

>But it doesn't matter. People say "you" just because everyone says it without thinking much about history and context. People say "you" even when they have higher status and have absolutely no respect for their interlocutor. But when translating English to text to other languages this second plural form is always translated as single plural form.
"Thou" fell out of usage and "you" changed in meaning to fill both roles in modern English. The practical and cultural meaning is simply different now than what it was then. How does this relate in any way whatsoever to Japanese usage of names and titles, which is still in full practical usage to this day?

>> No.15402892

>>15402824
>Does this game have voice work in it?

No.

>>15401770
I'm kind of neutral. I've played it, I own a copy (so the platform it comes out on now is of no consequence to me) and I suppose if other people outside of the usual audience get some exposure to Touhou doujin games it's okay.

It does feel kind of weird to see derivative works get more exposure than its source material in the mainstream, but that's on ZUN.

>> No.15402911

>>15402892
Well that's good news then. If I decide to get this I can live in blissful ignorance until everyone starts swearing at each other.

>> No.15402922

>>15402890
>There is no such thing as a word without meaning.
What about "meaningless"?
Checkmate, shintoists.

>> No.15402927

>>15402911
>until everyone starts swearing at each other.

Due to griping that it is/isn't on a particular console, or complaints about the graphics?

>> No.15402941

>>15402807
Futo is a fictional character. ZUN didn't "follow" anything, so much as he used it in characterizing his creation. She has no relation whatsoever to people of the past, but is of direct relevance to Zun's creative works.

>It's not just a reflection of period. She has that name because Japan has several kinds of "last names," and in this case Mononobe is the name of a formally recognized clan, so their clan names get "no" stuck on the end.
All you're doing here is adding to my point. None of this meaning is conveyed whatsoever by "Futo Mononobe".

>On the other hand, the "Toyosatomimi" in Toyosatomimi-no-Miko is not an old clan name. It may not even be her real last name at all, given that it's an informal descriptive title that she had in life and members of the imperial household don't have last names at all. Got any suggestions for translating that one?
Actually I do. You don't touch it at all, because you don't fucking translate names.

>Context is being lost, but I maintain that it's not context that anybody in the West knows or cares about.
The fact we're having this conversation in the first place proves your incredibly inane statement wrong.

>> No.15402963

>>15402458
Japan is the sole beacon of cultural and artistic advancement in the creative dark age that is the 21st century. ZUN will most likely be remembered in history as one of the great artists of our time.

>> No.15402967

>>15402941
>None of this meaning is conveyed whatsoever by "Futo Mononobe".
None of that meaning is conveyed to the average English reader by "Futo of the Mononobe clan" either, because they already know Mononobe is a family name and have no clue of the deeper significance.

>> No.15402990

>>15402941
>She has no relation whatsoever to people of the past
What? No. Futo is a fictional character who belongs to a historical clan that actually existed.

>Actually I do. You don't touch it at all, because you don't fucking translate names.
It's not a "name" any more than Yamaxanadu and "the Conqueror" are names.

>> No.15402995

>>15402941
>because you don't fucking translate names.
You do. But only if it's necessary (this is obviously not the case for Miko) and it doesn't sound dumb. Like for example all of character names in the fairy tales are almost always translated.

>> No.15403005

>>15402967
Even the lowest level English reader will realize:
-Her name is differently-structured than that of other characters in the setting.
-Her name is similarly-structured to that of others in her group.
-That her group must come from a different background (even if only in naming) than that of the other characters.

So in the absolute best case scenario you remove details from the story that an unfamiliar reader may intuitively pick up on their own, shitting on the translation's accuracy in the process. In the absolute worst scenario your shitty translation cripples the ability of someone well-versed in Japanese culture to enjoy the work as it was written.

And you're not making a point anyway. Even if it 'doesn't change anything" then you have no reason to change it in the first place.

>> No.15403007

>>15402927
I meant that xseed seems to have a habit of adding in pointless profanity in their translations.

>> No.15403023

>>15403005
>Her name is similarly-structured to that of others in her group.
>That her group must come from a different background (even if only in naming) than that of the other characters.
You mean Fujiwara no Mokou, Hata no Kokoro, Hieda no Akyuu, Watatsuki no Yorihime, Watatsuki no Toyohime. If I didn't know anything about Japanese culture I would never be able to draw connections.

>> No.15403041
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15403041

>>15403007
>I meant that xseed seems to have a habit of adding in pointless profanity in their translations.

Oh. That's...hmm.

>> No.15403050

>>15402995
When it comes to fables and children's stories the names themselves can be easily changed because characters are intentionally vague. The listener isn't supposed to care about who Jack and Jill or Little Red Riding Hood are, they're only supposed to understand the message of the story.

>> No.15403067

>>15403023
And every single one of those come from a very old background as well. Interesting how naming conventions work isn't it?

>> No.15403077

>>15403007
Get out of the way, bitch!

>> No.15403090

>>15403005
>And you're not making a point anyway.
I already made my point over an hour ago, I'm just attacking arguments since nobody's attacked my argument.

>>15403067
And does the game tell you that?

>> No.15403097

>>15403067
Why Hieda no Akyuu, but not Hakurei no Reimu? I bet a typical fresh 2hu fan would expect Hakurei to be a more influential powerful family name.

>> No.15403104

>>15403097
It's possible the irreverent attitude is hereditary and leads them to keep things relatively casual.

>> No.15403107

>>15403090
Which one would that be?

>And does the game tell you that?
It tells you they're all very old, yes.

>> No.15403114

so after this, anytime you see anyone being dumb you can complain that E3 brought in all the newfags, right?

>> No.15403116

it tells you that they're nobility

you fucking nerds

>> No.15403123

>>15403107
That localization implies moving from the source culture to the new consumer's culture, and thus you change things to fit.

>> No.15403126

>>15403116
Especially Hata no Kokoro

>> No.15403128

>>15403114
I'm just going to blame you specifically.
Thanks a lot, man.

>> No.15403133

>>15403097
That's a very interesting question that nobody would be asking if they were just "Reimu Hakurei" and not "Akyuu Hieda".

That said, isn't it because one is a reincarnation while the other isn't?

>> No.15403135

>>15403126
her name is stolen from an actual person so it's basically true

>> No.15403142

>>15403123
Are you talking about the culture of the setting itself? It would help if you linked the post in question for context.

>> No.15403149
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15403149

>>15403116
And how does an English reader with no knowledge of Japanese naming customs know that?

>> No.15403154

>>15403142
The culture of whatever you're localizing to, in this case the global English "culture", unless you're suggesting we import the game to Gensokyo.

>> No.15403168

>>15403149
most of the context is carried if you localize it "of", nobody who's not hot shit gets to use their last name in such a pretentious way

other than that it's like "von" or "de", people figure it out eventually

>> No.15403171

>>15403154
That's nice, but I'd prefer you verified the unanswered argument you supposedly made before I invest any more into this conversation.

>> No.15403174

>>15403149
By developing an understanding of the setting and characters over the course of the series like in any other piece of fiction?

>> No.15403179

>>15403149
Translation notes really should come back into style.

>> No.15403198

>>15403179
Localization and translation notes wouldn't even be necessary most of the time if literacy came back into style.

>> No.15403211

>>15403174
If you have to say "Play the other games, that don't have official translations", you haven't done a good job of officially localizing a doujin game. Any high-profile officially localized Touhou doujin game would likely be the point-of-entry for a large number of people.

>>15403179
I can't agree enough.

>>15403198
Depends on how well integrated something is. A passing reference or cultural allusion is likely to be wasted on even the best reader because they don't have the information in-text to understand it. What does need to come into style is willingness to do independent research.

>> No.15403243

>>15403211
>If you have to say "Play the other games, that don't have official translations", you haven't done a good job of officially localizing a doujin game.
Then you've set an incorrect standard. The touhou setting is much bigger than could be grasped in a single doujin game to begin with, and the purpose of the doujin game presumably isn't to introduce characters like Futo to people completely ignorant of the setting anyway.

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