/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

I always found interesting how ZUN managed to sync game mechanics not only with the game's plot but also with how things work in their universe.

I mean the whole spell card system that is referred all the time in the manga and books is really just a way to rationalize the gameplay of the STGs. More specific mechanics such as bombs can be translated to spell cards and lives can be translated to your character's vigor after taking a hit. Hell Junko even directly talks about it in LoLK.

But with all that said, has ZUN ever rationalized the Ps? The fact that you grow stronger as you defeat more enemies in a game has never really been explained, has it?

[Anonymous No.]

Not related to the question, but the way Junko mentioned it is rather unpleasant. She talks about "stench of death" as if it is shameful to do a legacy run instead of a pointdevice one just because we don't want to use ZUN's dumb new system. I mean sure, you get a different and more encouraging dialogue when you have a no-miss legacy run, but I don't think ZUN has ever been this dickish to non-perfect players. If anything, it should be the other way around, using pointdevice and as explained by the story "Eirin's drug" should be more shameful than the heroines going all on their own for youkai ass-kicking the classic way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017132
It's a game, I don't think he should have tried to explain any of the mechanics. The in world rationale of the spell card system is one of the worst handled things in the series.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017132
>lives can be translated to your character's vigor after taking a hit
I read taking a shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
Haha lol git gud skrub.
But seriously, ZUN probably used Point Device mode as a storytelling tool to emphasize that the foes in LoLK are stronger than the ones in previous games, or that they don't use the spellcard rules implied in the dialogue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
Whoa there dude just look at how hurt that butt is.
There's a solution, though. Do you want to prove how superior you are for playing in Legacy? Then don't fucking die a single time. Technically, you aren't dying at all in Pointdevice, so that's why Junko doesn't call you out (she can't see you cheating anyway).

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017368
Hahahaha, I was simply frowning upon the poor choice of words ZUN made for Junko's dialogue. Already cleared legacy normal and extra for all characters.
Hmm. Somehow I'm not buying the whole "lunarians are far stronger than Gensokyo's residents and there's nothing you can do about it". Perhaps I'm too much of a traditionalist, but I want to see not only the strong side to this new characters - but also the weak, helpless parts that make them more *believeable*.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017443
It's not a matter of proving superiority, you're just completely missing the point, you little dumbfuck. It's about the sense of in-game achievement when going for it while still having fun and not stressing about not losing lives. And even though that can be arranged, a mere dialogue change is still not worth the time. Just as it was unnecesary for ZUN to create an alternative one. See where I'm going now?

[Anonymous No.]

Man I love touhou but I cant play the game at all.
My motor skills are very poor.
I'll forever be a filthy secondary.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
She's the villain. *Of course* she'll berate you for your mistakes. If anything, that should motivate you to try and beat her on Legacy more to prove her wrong. She's a bitch danmaku-wise anyway, so 1cc'ing is very much an accomplishment relative to other games. If she wins in the story that way, so be it - you went all out on her. Since a Legacy 1cc unlocks Extra Stage anyway, her plans do not come to frution regardless of whether you play Pointdevice or Legacy. It only means Junko's salty enough to use her instant-kill purification on you regardless of the outcome of the fight, whereas Reimu at least has enough honor not to retaliate with her invincible Fantasy Nature.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017698
Also, if that helps, even the "perfect players" like Jaimers consider Junko's fight trash in terms of the difficulty and what it comes from. Throwing pixel-perfect micrododging is such a cool way to prove lunarian superiority, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017703
Not that anon, but where does it say that Junko is a lunarian? I tried the wiki but it only lists her as a former lunarian. Is it in one of the endings?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
>I don't think ZUN has ever been this dickish to non-perfect players.
If you play EoSD on Easy it doesn't even let you finish the game.

This is the same thing as Imperishable Night where you can't win the first time around because Eirin tricked you and you never meet Kaguya.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
I love how everything about the game revolves around needing to not die and then you get something like this in case you feel like playing the mode where you can die (even though lives are worthless in there as well). Rude? Probably (for Junko as well, after all you're showing your impure self in front of a mass of cute purity), but also amazing.
It's good to see people reacting this badly to it as well. "Fuck you ZUN you can't punish me for not playing in the canon way to beat the game and then fucking up".

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Comman(...) !rSDMROXTB. No.]

ZUN is a smart gook, so he knows the best course of action to build a likeable setting is to leave the details to the fans. No one can deny how much shapely the 2hu world has become, a lot of details both in relationships and character design have been finally modified by the fans.

Like how when he used to say that the stripes on Patchy's dress were reflections, but he eventually gave up and accepted the fan depiction of her having a stripped dress, and then that design started appearing on official works as well.


So, this means that not even ZUN or the fanbase have found a way to include the Ps as part of 2hu history development.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019098
>Like how when he used to say that the stripes on Patchy's dress were reflections, but he eventually gave up and accepted the fan depiction of her having a stripped dress, and then that design started appearing on official works as well.
...huh? Every game appearance since SWR has had the mono-color dress.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019098
You've got it backwards. The striped dress shows up in early official works, until ZUN said it was incorrect.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019098

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017132
P's are equivalent to blood in the Touhou universe. You feed on the blood of your enemies. The fact that they stop appearing at full power in the early games means you aren't hungry anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017132
>But with all that said, has ZUN ever rationalized the Ps? The fact that you grow stronger as you defeat more enemies in a game has never really been explained, has it?
Sanae refers to them once, but that might have been a joke.

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Comman(...) !rSDMROXTB. No.]

>>14019298
What about her sprites.

>>14019305
That's even more weird, as ZUN supposedly checks on what the artist can and cannot do. At least as early as SSiB patchy's dress already had stripes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019971
I thought ZUN checked on them because Alphes likes 2hporn.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017698
>>14017703
>>14018856
>>14018970

Well, either way I already statted all the points on why I disagree with the choice of wording used on Junko. In any case, ZUN already said Pointdevice won't be making a comeback, so I hope he doesn't bring up this elitist shit anymore.
As for EoSD, you can clear the game on normal losing lives or not without any difference other than the miss count. It's just a matter of difficulty, easy IS meant for players to get used to the controls, not for finishing the story, since you still get bad endings on following games for clearing it on easy and not higher difficulties.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019971
>What about her sprites.
Reused from IaMP. Fighting game sprites take a long time to draw, and redoing Patchy would be wasteful (never mind that it would be harder to see than the old sprite at that size, due to less color separation).

ZUN didn't want Meiling to be in IaMP because she's not supposed to leave her post, but Tasofro developed her on their own and he didn't find out until she was halfway finished (at which point he just rolled with it and suggested some attack names).

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019971
>>14020514
>What about her sprites.
Apparently, while IaMP was in development, ZUN gave Tasofro documents saying that Patchouli doesn't have stripes, but everyone was so sure she had stripes that they assumed it was a typo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019298
Patche was wearing a different dress when she took those pictures. What a cute clumsy bookworm.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14019971
>That's even more weird, as ZUN supposedly checks on what the artist can and cannot do. At least as early as SSiB patchy's dress already had stripes.
SSiB was pretty infamous for not having a whole lot of communication between AkiEda and ZUN. That's why there are various oddities or embellishments in SSiB that don't really add up.

>>14017769
There isn't really a citation. I think people are assuming this due to Junko trying to kill Chang'e every so often. I think it makes sense, but it probably shouldn't be stated on the wiki.

>>14017268
>>14017487
>>14020320
the butthurt is so real you're getting mad at npc trashtalk and calling it elitism

[Anonymous No.]

How are the stripes supposed to be reflections? Reflections of what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14020941
Well, at this point it's pretty clear you completely refuse to understand the point I'm trying to make. The dumb only seem to get dumber...

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021705
Not him but it's just a little banter m8. Nothing to get upset about. Don't take it so seriously like this guy.

http://www.theportlygazelle.com/2015/08/26/american-working-in-england-is-suing-his-colleagues-for-too-much-banter/

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021761
Was that trolling? Wow people like to waste their time. It's not even effective

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021777
>It's not even effective
The fact that you're getting worked up over it only means you're inadvertently trolling yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021783
Do you know what worked up means? I'm barely swayed at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021790
The fact that you have to go out of your way to deny it (which you will no doubt keep denying for many more posts to come) instead of glossing it over like an ordinary human being indicates that you care in some way.

I mean this thread is mostly you talking about how lunarian elitism means that ZUN is a petty fag trolling you into the ground.

>>14017453
>but also the weak, helpless parts that make them more *believeable*.
Some people are just cast iron bitches. Gap moe is for fags.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021798
Now I can't tell if it's me who's caring a little too much or if it's you. That's some deep insight on a simple game design discussion...

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021806
Hard to see otherwise when you spend dozens of posts whining about something that makes perfect thematic sense and wanting all the Lunarians to get helpless moe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021820
That's your choice

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021849
If you make retarded complaints people will call you a whiny retard. Surprise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021855
Now you're just going over and over the same stuff. Move along, child.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021859
>Now you're just going over and over the same stuff. Move along, child.
It's important to emphasize how utterly incapable you are of making an actual response to any of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021867
You made it pointless by boring the fuck out of me. So long, faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021871
As long as your fucking stupidity on full display it's fine if you want to abandon what is an utterly indefensible position.

Come back any time to tell us more about how ZUN should have taken a huge steaming dump on his setting to appease your ego and your fetishes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021702
They're not reflections, they're shadows. See >>14019298 and >>14020514

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021871
Are you the guy who's mad at Junko laughing at his small dick?
Hahaha wow, you're pathetic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021798
>>14021705
>>14021777
>>14021783
>>14021855
>>14021820
>>14021806
>>14021849
>>14021867
>>14021859
>>14022619
can you stop this shitposting nosense?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14024152
Said the scorpion to the frog, "it is my nature".

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Comman(...) !rSDMROXTB. No.]

>>14020941
>>14020571
The thing is, in the end ZUN still forfeited his original Patchy depiction.
The stripes were real in his mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017453
>poor choice of words

oh, so you play the game in Japanese as it was written and not fucked up by some translation which is never really 1:1 given different connotations of words and different cultural contexts

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025265
Stop bringing out this tired dog-and-pony show exactly how the Japanese is different if you really want to play this card.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025278
I'm not him, but aren't things like Alice's "Move out of the way, bitch" completely invented to fit in with then-current internet jokes?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025355
We're talking about a single piece of dialog - Junko's. Dragging out every Touhou mistranslation that has ever been made is mostly irrelevant.

>completely invented to fit in with then-current internet jokes?
Even at it's most uncharitable it's just an overly liberal translation.

[Anonymous No.]

Well, glad there's still people willing to discuss seriously their points of view on specific topics rather than criticize someone's speech content, which is very childish.
Either way, I think Alice's "move out of the way, bitch" is iconic and is based in humorous purposes and the fact that Alice and Reimu DO know each other beforehand, so I think it fits. Probably not the point you were trying to make but if it's not a 1:1 translation, as long as the same meaning is portrayed, it still works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025567
>mistranslations are fine as long as I like them!
That's not how it works, man. It's a mistranslation, end of the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025567
>as long as the same meaning is portrayed, it still works
You're just pushing off the difficulty of defining a "good translation" onto "same meaning".

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025761
>>14025798
Ahhh, I guess you both make good points. Is this something people still bother about fixing or..?

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025955
>Is this something people still bother about fixing or..?
Well, the wiki and the thcrap English patch both have that line fixed, as well as several others updated and such. So yes, stuff like this is still something people bother taking care of.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025798
The original translator saw Alice suggest a way of telling Reimu to leave that was both funny and quite rude, and chose what he thought would effectively render this idea in English.

You can argue that he chose poorly but it's not like he went out of his way to arbitrarily make shit up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025761
>>14025798
It's more of a "localization". As >>14028126 pointed out, it works just fine- the only difference in translation is that the term "bitch" wasn't used- not that the word sees any usage in Japanese culture as it does in the west. I'll also add that THCrap even has an option to keep that very line in the game.

Quite frankly, only the most hardcore headband-wearing elitists seem to take any offense to it. You might as well argue that we should romanize Alice as Arisu, Patchouli as Pachurii, and so on. Or even take it a step further and say that "true fans" only play the game in its native language, period. IF you even play the games, as opposed to reading scenario dialogue on the wiki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14028168
>You might as well argue that we should romanize Alice as Arisu, Patchouli as Pachurii, and so on
You'd have to have a pretty crappy view of translating as a whole to suggest that this is in any way an appropriate comparison.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14028190
Stop contradicting my strawman!

[Anonymous No.]

>>14021702
>>14019971
>>14019098
The 'stripes' are supposed to be folds in the dress.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14028192
That's not what a strawman is you low-functioning autist. It's just a bad analogy.

Don't throw out terms that you don't understand the meaning of.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14025761
>>14028190
Quit greentexting and making ad hominems. I'm still waiting for you to explain how exactly the "bitch, get out of the way" line misrepresents the story in TH08.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14028254
761 isn't 190. Also, 190 (me) quoted the post exactly, dumbfuck. You also seem to have no idea what an ad hominem is, nor what it means to have a mistranslation. As the other guy implied, you seem to be content with anything that vaguely resembles what the original line was going for, regardless of embellishment. Most translators would find that to be inaccurate, and although some embellishment can be fine, there is a line to be drawn when the translation suggests something that the original line did not.

Do you even realize that this one line has been regurgitated over the years as something people think Alice and Marisa actually said? The translation accuracy standards for Touhou works is very high, as the written text is often absurdly nuanced and people's characterizations of characters and events are determined very strongly by it. We've seen time and time again that single lines, not even lines that are mistranslated but are just worded a certain way, can greatly affect what people take in from reading dialogue and written works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14028168

>it works just fine-

It doesn't.

The translator intentions were fine but his execution was terrible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017268
>She talks about "stench of death" as if it is shameful to do a legacy run instead of a pointdevice one
No, she talks about "stench of death" because her nature "rejects life and death".
Also I don't think there's such a thing as the enemies not using Spellcards, because the in-game system they use is not one bit different from the usual, and because they can still be beaten by characters limiting themselves with those rules. This would only mean that the boss cast of LoLK are weak shits who lose to SC users despite attacking with killing intent and no limits.

>>14017132
>lives can be translated to your character's vigor after taking a hit.
It's actually more in the line of how much patience does the enemy/enemies have for your character re-challenging them, since it is known that Reimu does this (re-challenges people she couldn't beat until she manages to do it).

[Anonymous No.]

>>14017582
Same, I've been playing for about 5 years and I haven't 1ccd a single game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14033772

>It's actually more in the line of how much patience does the enemy/enemies have for your character re-challenging them, since it is known that Reimu does this (re-challenges people she couldn't beat until she manages to do it).

When I said vigor I meant in an endurance kind of way. The only other time ZUN ever hinted at how hits work (as in why some take more hits than others) in the games was in Fairy Wars with the motivation mechanic.

In the manga they treated it as one hit lose kinda thing in SSiB I think, but I don't recall the details now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>14034063
Try Mountain of faith with Marisa B. My one and only 1cc so far.