[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/jp/ - Otaku Culture

View post   
  [?]In ghost mode, only threads with non-archived posts will be shown
File: 1.00 MB, 1280x960, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13476323 No.13476323 [Reply] [Original]

If he had just completely removed legacy mode, put a cap on the number of retries, and created some new enemies, this could have been 5/5.

>> No.13476361

k

>> No.13476396

l

>> No.13476412

Stage 1-3 bosses are usually nothing special and get forgotten fast. We'll see how new characters in full version are.

And there kind of is a cap. You lose power when you die.

>> No.13476430

>>13476323
Removing legacy mode would be completely stupid and I can't believe you would suggest that even as a joke.

>> No.13476559

>>13476430
No, it makes perfect sense. See, StB and DS were okay because everybody had all the retries they wanted and could approach a scene in any way they liked. Then came ISC with its "correct way to do things", where you could use the items in theory, but obviously the no-item clears were the best and it didn't count if you used items on a scene. And now we have this, where ZUN ramps up the difficulty because of the save reversion, but nobody recognizes pointdevice mode as a valid mode anyway, so you get vastly increased difficulty with no advantages whatsoever. By making legacy mode a thing, ZUN effectively removed pointdevice mode.

On one hand, this is bullshit and he shouldn't have done that. On the other, if you ignore the pointdevice mode, you just have a harder-than-usual Touhou game. Which is good, so I'm okay with it.

>> No.13476569

>>13476412
Losing .01 power doesn't stop you from playing. A cap means game over, start from the beginning.

>>13476430
Legacy mode shouldn't even exist anymore. Not in 2015. The fact that this one-life system in its current state solves all of the problems of the old one is proof enough that it's time to let it go.
It's so good that I don't want to play any other touhou game. Even if I play them with one life from the first playthrough, which I've already been doing on hard and above, I just CAN'T because they still don't have the stage design to go along with it. This is NO joke.

>> No.13476589

>>13476559
>harder-than-usual Touhou game.

I don't really see the problem here.

>> No.13476597

>>13476559
>>13476569
Regardless of whether or not you dislike legacy mode, the fact remains that there are people who prefer it and removing it entirely does nothing but fuck those people over without providing any benefit to pointdevice players who could very easily just not play legacy.

>> No.13476602

>>13476569
Also, it should be obvious I'm talking about not using continues or retries. Pointdevice is a joke if you use retries, yet it's STILL miles above the old system even with. The retries are even aesthetically justified. A retry cap would have been the ideal compromise.

>> No.13476619

>>13476589
Oh, my problem isn't with it being harder-than-usual.

The thing is, legacy and pointdevice modes are just not compatible. If legacy exists, there's no point to pointdevice (might as well use an invincibility hack), so one or the other should be removed.

>> No.13476633

>>13476597
And those people would have been a legacy, if only zun were bold enough to go all the way with it. But for a lone Japanese man and nearly twenty years of doujin and professional experience behind him, a 4/5 is a huge step in the right direction.
There are hundreds and hundreds of legacy games out there. There is almost nothing like this. You think you're the one getting fucked over by paying for more of the same? Zun has always said he makes games for himself, so if this is really what he wants to have, we'll keep seeing more of it.

>> No.13476649

>>13476619

I just think of pointdevice mode as the new practice mode, Assuming an actual chapter select isn't added to the proper practice mode.

Pointdevice mode isn't going to become the standard for score autists and theres nothing really wrong with having more choices.

>> No.13476694

>>13476633
I still don't see why you would rather have this as opposed to a harder than average Touhou game, rather than having this plus a harder than average Touhou game.
>>13476619
I also don't see why they aren't compatible. I'm totally in support of adding a retry cap, but I just don't understand why Legacy has to get tossed out.

>> No.13476764

>>13476694
Dude, you're wasting your time discussing with someone that rates something on a scale of 5.

>> No.13476778

Because OP is from /v/ and doesn't realize that people who have played 2hu for years have a different way of thinking than him.

>> No.13476813

>>13476694
Because having both modes has a detrimental effect on the game's design.
I'll start with real examples before getting to the what-ifs. There are games with instant full-screen attacks that cannot be dodged without having been killed by them before and memorizing them. In a game with lives, this sucks, but it's ok because you can afford the loss. In a game without lives, this is unacceptable. Same with lifebar and shield games with unavoidable, inescapable sections. The design has to match the mechanics.
As for pd vs legacy, we all know some people play "for survival" and some "for score." With legacy mode, you can ignore the scoring system altogether. With pd, you actually WANT and almost HAVE TO score, because you want those bomb fragments to help you get through the game. It's not an absolute necessity, since you can very well finish the game without ever using bombs, but that's why it's only a 4/5 step in the right direction (and because similar steps have already been taken before).
In the ideal game, every thing that's in it is required to be used in order to win, with mechanics and design to match. That means one mode, only. And it's simply more fun to have two different games than one game with two modes.

>> No.13476850

>>13476813
Bombs are even less necessary if you can try the section over and over again ad infinitum until you get it though. And don't say losing .01 power has an impact because it doesn't unless you die like fifty times.

>> No.13476856

>>13476694
>I just don't understand why Legacy has to get tossed out.
If Legacy isn't tossed out, Pointdevice is. As >>13476649 said, it's a glorified practice mode, nobody will take it seriously.

I'm okay with the current situation though, since it means that Legacy is the real mode and Pointdevice may as well not exist.

>> No.13476860

>>13476813
Even the name is better. Kanzenmuketsu: Absolutely Flawless. It's like he's calling you a cripple for using Legacy Mode. And when you're using continues, which are nothing more than crutches, you really are.

>> No.13476868

>>13476850
Read the thread. I already answered this >>13476602
I'm not the only poster here who's in support of pd mode.

>> No.13476923

>>13476856
>if you're not a retarded scorefag, you're nobody
Here comes the defense force as expected, since your only livelyhood is on the chopping block. Soon these games won't have a score at all. How will you distance yourself then when everyone is forced to play the same way?
Why don't YOU ignore pointdevice and stay with the "real mode?" You only hate it because you can't die for more points and you can't whore replays, assuming you don't get one if you play without retrying. I'm not going to spoil the game by finishing it on normal to check for myself.

>> No.13476926

>>13476868
There's something like self-imposed challanges you know.
Look at all the people going for perfect runs in the past games while there wasn't any mode that forced you do so.

>> No.13476996

>>13476868
How the fuck is pointdevice mode with no retries any different from legacy mode with no lives?

>> No.13477021

>>13476926
Self-imposed challenges aren't as fun because there's no challenge when you can change the difficulty at any time, and you usually do those after beating a game once. If you want the most fun, it should be that way from the beginning. I know this since playing SA with no lives and DDC with no lives or bombs from the first playthrough was a million times more fun than doing the same with games I've already beaten. That's also why I say putting a cap on restarts is a good compromise between having no restarts at all or going legacy.

>> No.13477032

>>13476996
>missing the forest for the trees

>> No.13477045

>>13476923
No, if you play a shitty souped-down version of the game, you're nobody. Pointdevice mode is for elementary school children.

>> No.13477059

>>13477032
Answer my question.

>> No.13477061

>>13477032
Who are you quoting?

>> No.13477069

>>13476602
>Pointdevice is a joke if you use retries, yet it's STILL miles above the old system even with.
I disagree. Getting magically warped back in time with an annoying menu popping up every time is way inferior than just respawning back for x number of lives. It feels like you're just savestating your way through the game.

>> No.13477097
File: 2.00 MB, 240x180, i'm retarded.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13477097

I don't even know the difference between them.

>> No.13477103

>>13477097
Ringo!

>> No.13477225

>>13477097
When you get hit in pointdevice mode, instead of losing a life you get sent back to the last checkpoint you passed. These checkpoints are placed roughly 45 seconds apart. You also lose .01 power to give the illusion that there's actually any penalty whatsoever for fucking up.
Basically easy peasy shit for bottomfeeders.

>> No.13477232

>>13477069
I already answered this. >>13476813
It's better because it encourages you use the scoring system. The menu does need work, however. There should be no menu if you get hit, and pressing R should start you from beginning instead of you having to go back to the title screen.
>magically
I already answered this >>13476602
The kanju is a chinese gem that lets you recall memories. In the game, Eirin gives you a drug that lets you see the future. When you get hit, it was only a vision, so you go back to what's "really" happening. Maybe he'll add some awesome rewind effect in the full version.
>It feels like you're just savestating your way through the game.
Which is exactly what the "real mode" scorefags already do. I, again, have already answered this >>13476602 >>13477021
If you're dying constantly, you should be lowering the difficulty level. The ideal game would have one setting, so this wouldn't be an issue.
You're right in the sense that the checkpoints are too close to each other, and I don't like them being between every single boss attack, but I get that he's trying to get you to score continuously. Spacing out the checkpoints and lowering the required number of fragments per bomb should help the stages, but zun cares more about bosses so not having a checkpoint between each attack would be another detriment.

>> No.13477247

>>13477232
>>It feels like you're just savestating your way through the game.
>Which is exactly what the "real mode" scorefags already do
I have no idea what the fuck you're even talking about at this point and I don't think you do either.

>> No.13477256

>>13477247
Scorefags use savestates, then do the "real run" later. That's why they're saying it's practice mode.

>> No.13477290

>>13477225
>You also lose .01 power
This is doubly stupid since you shouldn't lose anything if you're seeing a vision, and if that's supposed to be the side effect of the drug, you should be losing power constantly.

>> No.13477307

>>13477225
>>13477290
>.01 power
Wouldn't this just be so that people know how many times you've died?

>> No.13477324

>>13477307
Red items are all worth .01, and the chapter results tell you how many times you died. You're thinking about continues raising your score by 1.

>> No.13477338

>>13477232
>It's better because it encourages you use the scoring system.
I really don't understand how this is the case any more than legacy mode. You still get bomb fragments from scoring in legacy mode correct? I cba to check.

If anything bombs are even less valuable in pd because you can just retry the same bite sized segment a dozen times until you get it.

Furthermore I don't get how pd is supposed to discourage "beginner trap" attacks. If the player is just getting set back a few seconds it seems like even less of an incentive to avoid cheap patterns.

>> No.13477350

>>13477225


That's fucking stupid. When people were initially talking about pointdevice I assumed it meant every fucking time you died you had to restart the stage. 45 seconds? That's some pussy shit.
I thought this was lunarian FLAWLESS master race.
What's the point even?

>> No.13477382

>>13477350
There isn't one. If it were tweaked that would be one thing but as of now it's glorified practice mode.

>> No.13477525

What if Pointdevice mode = bad endings, similar to how using the altered weapons gave endings with significantly different impressions in DDC? We even already know the possible story justification, due to the heroine's using Eirin's elixir in Pointdevice mode.

>> No.13477550

>>13477525
ZUN says that this time, legacy mode is "expert mode". He wants the normal/casual player to be able to at least get the good endings and unlock Extra.

>> No.13477588

After reading this entire thread I still can't understand why some people think that having LESS options is better than having MORE.

Are you the same people that were defending 4 shot types instead of 6 last week?

>> No.13477595

>>13477588
I understand the 4 shot types if it means an additional character.

>> No.13477657

>>13477338
>I really don't understand how this is the case any more than legacy mode
Here's what's wrong with touhou, and many shmups in general, which pd fixes.
Let's say you have three lives per bomb, and start with three lives. Dying can count as a bomb since it clears bullets around you, so that's four. You gain three lives by the end of the game, so that's six. Six by four is 24 bombs at your disposal. The problem with this is that, once you can handle the first three or four stages, you can bomb your way through to the end. Even casuals notice this. They say it's cheesy, and that's why they die with bombs in stock. Look it up on the archive, I was in that exact conversation. Scoring is irrelevant in legacy mode.
In pd mode, you have three bombs and that's it, period. Unless you want to keep restarting every two seconds, in which case you should be going back to legacy mode or lowering the difficulty, you are going to want to score to get more bombs.

>you can just retry the same bite sized segment a dozen times
That's why there should be a cap. Even then, most people will soon realize it's better to restart from the beginning and save their bombs for later. Which is what every non-retard has always done: skip continues and start from the beginning. If pd gets more people to realize that, it has done its job.

>I don't get how pd is supposed to discourage "beginner trap" attacks
Because zun's not an idiot, and doing this with a short time penalty more easily exposes those crappy tactics for what they are.

>> No.13477682

>>13477657
Does retrying a failed chapter affect score in any way (other than the lost power, which may make killing enemies harder)?

>> No.13477693

>>13477682
I haven't tried it, but it probably it does. I'm assuming the retry count is a negative multiplier. I'll pop it in now and see.

>> No.13477701

>>13477657

>The problem with this is that, once you can handle the first three or four stages, you can bomb your way through to the end.

Your score will usually go down though if you bomb non stop and/or lose most your lives. You can cheese through a run, sure, but your score will reflect this. I don't really see an issue with this since it is quite modular. Players who want to improve at the game will do it slowly, bombing less (or bombing for scoring depending on the game/scenario) and will improve their play, which is reflected by their score.

Of course, if you can cheese AND high score that is a problem with the game itself, not the system.

PointDevice is nice that forces players to actually master some spells, but it will nevber be the same as Legacy. There is a difference in skill from a guy that reaches a boss and perfects it right then and there and a guy who can eventually do all the patterns eventually but takes around 5 tries to do it, even if he can perfect one or another occasionally.

I disagree in having a cap, but score should take a bigger hit to reflect sloppy play. If the guy is stuck on a spell for 20-30 tries he should be losing points at that point. You could also give tons of points for those that clear in one try and decrease it massively for those that need retrying. You know, like 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.

>> No.13477702

Pointdevice mode is for learning the game and spell card practice. Unlimited retries with a small power penalty give you a chance to try new tactics in the further stages. It's essentially practice mode in that regards. The main problem is power and bombs. Yes, losing .01 may seem like nothing but because of the checkpoint system, you can easily be starting in a terrible position. Yesterday, I went through 120 retries on Doremy Sweet on Hard because I cleared a checkpoint right next to her and I already used all my bombs. Half the time she'd move right into me and the other half I'd get shot while trying to get back. Because of the power loss it took longer and while I did eventually clear that part, I had to scrap that run. Also, the no default bomb replenishment after death is annoying if you have to rely on bombs to clear a sections. "But bombing is for worthless faggots who suck at the game." If you aren't bombing, you are going for a 1cc no bombs run. There'd be no point to pointdevice mode then. It's like having an arcade machine set on infinite credits. You beat the game but it felt cheap

Legacy mode is for clearing the game and veterans. I don't want to feel like I'm savestating while playing a hard game. I want to be rewarded for getting enough points and grazing for an extra life and you should always be going for a no continue. If you see a menu while playing the game, you fucked it. There's nothing like being on stage 6 with 1 life and 1 bomb and pulling it off. That feeling of doubt of whether or not you can squeeze into a small space and save your bomb or just bomb through and hope for the best. It's great.

>> No.13477703

>>13477657
>Here's what's wrong with touhou, and many shmups in general, which pd fixes.
But pd doesn't have anything to do with it. That's an issue of just providing too much resources in general. Besides, there was a risk to stocking bombs in previous games since if you died your stock went back down to 3. Now, if I wanted, I could save all the bombs from the first 3-4 stages by spamming retries and probably not even have to see a boss attack by the time I reach the end.

In all honesty the system I like the best are meter-based bombs like in Crimzon Clover and Suguri. That's a much better fix for the bomb saving issue.

>> No.13477722

>>13477682
>>13477693
Bad news. There's no penalty.
Normal, Sanae. Died once on the second segment (dying on the first and restarting counts as starting a new run so the counter doesn't increase) and there was no score difference. Went to the first midboss attack and died several times, and got the same result. The total score or max point value didn't change, either.
I did learn that the game uses at least three digits after the decimal for the shooting down rate.

>> No.13477736

>>13477588
probably, I was the one saying 8 shot types would really spice up the game, but as it stands with touhou 15, we're only getting 4 shot types.

>> No.13477748

>>13477722
Too bad.

I don't how scorefags think about this, but I don't like high scoring strategies that involve intentional suiciding and would rather watch a replay if the best possible score involved play that looks both perfect and beautiful. (=not cheesy)

>> No.13477764

>>13477701
Your analogy is flawed. There is a difference between a guy who can clear spells here and there and a guy who can clear spells consistantly across an entire run. This difference should be displayed in the game itself, not by score. The consistant guy should win, and the sporadic guy should go back to the beginning.
>if you can cheese AND high score that is a problem with the game itself, not the system.
Yes. Now you need to understand that the game IS the system.

Score is not a reflection of skill. Who's more skilled: the one who can reach stage six with a shit score, or one who can't get past stage 2 but has a score four times higher? Spoiler: if you think it's the latter, that means you don't like videogames.

If he's stuck on a spell, he should lose and go back to the beginning, where he can score enough to get the bombs to help him through, thereby reaching the more difficult parts of the game that will give him the skill necessary to tackle it on his next run.

>> No.13477768

>>13477722
but i remember losing 4 million when dying to doremy

>> No.13477802

>>13477702
The problem here is there are four "modes," and you are comparing them incorrectly. Here is how the modes rank.
pd with no retries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legacy with no continues > pd with retries >>> legacy with continues
One and two are one set and are comparable, and three and four are another. You're trying to compare across sets.

>That feeling of doubt of whether or not you can squeeze into a small space and save your bomb or just bomb through and hope for the best. It's great.
Now imagine feeling that for the ENTIRE GAME. THAT'S what pd with no retries is like, and that's what I want in the end. And the intensity is far, FAR higher than with what you're doing. Again, this must be forced on the player, not self-imposed. That means no legacy, and no retries or a retry cap.

>> No.13477816

>>13476602
What's the difference between Pointdevice with no retries and simply resetting the whole game when you take a hit with legacy?

>> No.13477820

>>13477802
I still don't see why taking legacy out of the game improved PD in any way.

>> No.13477822

I don't get it.
Isn't pd without retries just no death legacy?

>> No.13477823

>>13477764

>This difference should be displayed in the game itself, not by score. The consistant guy should win, and the sporadic guy should go back to the beginning.

I disagree. Normal players should be able to clear normal, that means that the level of skill that they should display should be average, and even if their play is sporadic if they try hard enough and use up all resources they should be able to snag the clear. The reward for using less resources and making a better play is a better score, and if that isn't enough for you I'm sorry. I feel very satisfied when I do a run and completely destroy my previous score, it shows how much I progressed in the game.

>Score is not a reflection of skill. Who's more skilled: the one who can reach stage six with a shit score, or one who can't get past stage 2 but has a score four times higher? Spoiler: if you think it's the latter, that means you don't like videogames.

Score -should- be a reflection of skill. Your example is flawed because those scores won't matter unless it is a clear. Who gives a shit if the guy at Stage 2 has a higher score? You should be comparing clear scores, not odd examples like that.

Moreover, I want to bring this back:

>Of course, if you can cheese AND high score that is a problem with the game itself, not the system.

If the game is designed in such a way that the less skilled player can attain a higher score than a better skilled player then the game is flawed, not the whole scoring paradigm.

>> No.13477825

>>13477703
>Now, if I wanted, I could save all the bombs from the first 3-4 stages by spamming retries
This doesn't work. You won't know if you've reached the quota until after the results appear. At that point, the state has already been saved and you can't go back. You'd have to start from the beginning. if you're really trying to do this, you obviously don't care about the game and are just trying to reach the credits whatever the cost. Even ten, you can only hold nine bombs at once. That's not enough to give you a free win.

>> No.13477836

>>13477802
I quoted the wrong line, but that one still works.
>There's nothing like being on stage 6 with 1 life and 1 bomb and pulling it off

>> No.13477839

I don't even play the games but please don't remove additional gameplay modes "kudasai".

This is as bad as the fags who want to remove save/load/quicksave/quickload because "savecum", if you dislike these features, don't use them.

>> No.13477843

>>13477802

So what you're asking is for a little medal at the end for those that make the game without retrying? Or you want every single player to be barred from seeing the ending if they can't play perfectly? If you want the latter you're being ludicrous.

And you know, people have been doing "pd with no retries" for a while now, it's called a no miss clear. And I can guarantee that a lot of them are satisfied by doing that, even if it is not forced by the game.

>> No.13477844

>>13477816
Forced = challenge. Self imposed = no challenge. It sounds the same on paper, but it feels different to play. Scorefags will never understand this. I already answered this here >>13477021

>> No.13477852

>>13477820
It can't be helped.
If you can't see the improvement, that just means it's not an improvement for you.

>> No.13477857

>>13477844

>It sounds the same on paper, but it feels different to play.

Have you ever considered that not everyone thinks this way and maybe you are in the minority here?

Are you telling me that Speedrunners don't feel the heat when they do their self imposed challenges? Or what about perfect runs which are quite common amongst STG players? You really think they are worthless and not challenging at all?

I've done self imposed challenges before and they feel just as real. If they don't for you then maybe you are too weak to keep one and bend the rules when you break.

>> No.13477859

>>13477844
>Self-imposed = no challenge.
I'm sorry you need to be told what to do and what to value by other people.

>> No.13477878

>>13477844
Funny, because I always associate forced as being a negative thing while self imposed is a positive thing.

And generally with most games, self imposed restrictions = challenge. The words are literally interchangable. For Dark Souls for instance, challenge runs literally means runs where you enforce restrictions on yourself like to leveling or no healing. Does the game force you to do that? No. But it still grants satisfaction.

>> No.13477905

>>13477852
But I want to understand. You have yet to explain why Touhou 15 would have been better if Legacy was not in the game. If PD was removed in Touhou 16 that would suck balls from your perspective. Why would doing the same to Legacy be a good thing?

>> No.13477919

>>13477823
I'm saying your idea is shit because seeing and playing more of the game is a much better reward than getting a higher score. If the game is too hard, lower the difficulty or play an easier game. You're satisfied with how it is because you're a scorefag. For you, the score itself is more important than the things you have to do to raise that score. With my way, instead of just getting more numbers, you get a brand new stage, enemies, music, bosses, attacks, again and again until you finally win. That's actual progression, because you are literally progressing inside the game.

>>13477823
>Score -should- be a reflection of skill
It is. Again, the difference is in what is reflected back. If you HAVE to score to get farther, there is no difference from what we both want. On paper. For you, "score" means numbers. For me. I want "score" to mean more of the game. Which is why:
>You should be comparing clear scores
You want more score by playing the same game. I want more score by playing a new game. In order to maximize the enjoyment of both of our definitions of score, that means playing a hard game where scoring is required to win (and it's hard BECAUSE scoring is REQUIRED).

>If the game is designed in such a way that the less skilled player can attain a higher score than a better skilled player then the game is flawed
Again, the game IS the system. The less skilled player getting a higher score means THAT IS WHAT THE GAME REWARDS. Stage progression, not numerical progression. In my game, the better skilled player WILL have a better score, but the score won't just be numbers! The only solution for your problem is to make games my way, where score IS "survival," or go back to the old games that went on forever and they ended when you couldn't take anymore or the cart ran out of memory.

>> No.13477932

>>13477919
>The only solution for your problem is to make games my way
This is an awfully pompous thing to say.

>> No.13477942

>>13477839
Okay. Let's just make one game with every mode, so everyone's happy. Infinite lives mode, infinite bombs mode, invulnerability mode, no bullets mode, upside down mode, everything.
The difference here is that different modes need different designs, which is the same as saying they are different games.

>> No.13477951

>>13477942
Sure, why not?

Games used to have fucking built-in cheats back then, I don't mind that shit because as said, if you don't like it, don't play it.

The challengefags who want to fucking change games to fit their view should get into modding or make their own games.

>> No.13477953

>>13477919

You say a lot of things here, but let me try to sum up your basic idea:

You want better rewards for people that play better, right? As in, you want the better players to experience more of the game and be rewarded by more stages and real content instead of just a number, right?

Well, I think that your basic idea is fine, but your suggestion is too harsh. Forcing players to do a perfect no miss clear run to see all the content of a regular campaign is anal, anon. Touhou was never ever this hard and ZUN shouldn't be changing this now.

What we could hopefully see however is a return of systems that were in place in PCB or IN. You know, stuff like needing to capture spellcards to unlock Extra/Phantasm, the Last Word system, etc. This sort of stuff is fine and those are real rewards for better skilled players, but forcing the game to be cleared perfectly like that is just bad design.

>> No.13477963

>>13477843
>So what you're asking is for a little medal at the end for those that make the game without retrying
Read the thread "kudasai."
>Or you want every single player to be barred from seeing the ending if they can't play perfectly
Git gud or lower the difficulty. Where were you when the thousands of players complained about easy being unbeatable?
>If you want the latter you're being ludicrous.
Reducing the game to numbers is ludicrous. Actually its not, because there's nothing funny about it. It's just sad.
>And you know, people have been doing "pd with no retries" for a while now, it's called a no miss clear.
It's called a "grind savestates and practice modes for months then putting it all together" clear.
>And I can guarantee that a lot of them are satisfied by doing that, even if it is not forced by the game.
And I guarantee it would be more satisfying if they were forced to do it from the beginning. IF they're not scorefags. AND when you consider I'm literally the only one I've even heard of to actually self-impose no miss clears on brand new games, without practicing or watching replays or anything else.
I'm even kind enough to give you a retry cap. You demand perfect play, yet you call me ludicrous?

>> No.13477969

>>13477825
You missed the point. The overabundance of bombs has absolutely nothing to do with the checkpoint mechanic.

>if you're really trying to do this, you obviously don't care about the game
You're right, I don't care about a shitty savestate simulator mode.

>> No.13477973

>>13477802
If you are doing pointdevice without retries then it's the same as legacy with no deaths. There would be no point to pointdevice or legacy. Also, the disgrace that I see having to use a continue far outweighs the retry function. If I see the continue screen, I start the game over. With pointdevice, I can't place where the "everything is fucked" line should be and the fact that there is little consequence is a bad thing

Also, forcing a no death run on players would do what exactly? Limit the game for everyone but a few? Why would that be a good thing? Why don't you just do what everyone else does and record it, put it on youtube, and jerk off to the comments.

>> No.13477986

It's just fucking computer games, stop trying so hard to impress people, challengefags.

>> No.13478007
File: 685 KB, 275x209, 15nufps.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13478007

I actually like Pointdevice mode. I don't really like the main Touhou games as much as the camera games, ISC, and PoFV since I hate having to restart all the way from the beginning and waste my time if I make a minor mistake.

>> No.13478015

>>13477963
You do know that alot of people that do a no miss all clear are scorefags, right? If more than 1 person can do it, you have to prove your better than the rest so people also try to get the best score as well. The high skilled player have always been like that and always will be.

This game is where it needs to be at. The difficulty is good and people have options. If they want to have 300 retries in pointdevice mode, let them. If they want to be bombing in legacy mode, let them. If they want to no miss all clear in whatever mode, let them.

>> No.13478025

>>13477919
I'm glad you have nothing to do with videogames, because that's an awful idea. There's a reason scoring has become less and less important in games nowadays. Even now, it's more about clearing the game under certain restrictions or clearing the game as fast as possible.

There's two major reasons. Firstly, scoring is exploitable. When you realize that ZUN is making the game himself with minimal testing outside of himself, you realize that making scoring requirements is very arbitrary. Zun has maybe 20 or 30 hours to play his own game without worrying about coding and such. We have potentially that much and more, which combined with the sheer numbers of people playing, means we get thousands of hours with the game. Gamers know how to optimize and to cheat. Safespots will be found. Maximal graze areas will be discovered. Optimal bomb locations will be too. These are things that even the worst of players can take advantage of. ZUN circumnavigates this currently by making the rewards for scoring rather light. You don't need all of those extra lives to clear the game.

Secondly, scoring frankly isn't fun for most players. Simple as that. The average player wants to experience everything. Making them score to do that isn't very enjoyable for anyone.

You can complain all you want about the current state of gamers, but I'm sure Zun cares more about making a fun game for the majority than making a challenging game for you.

>> No.13478026

>>13478007
Having to use a continue is not a minor mistake. It's called a fuck up and because it's a fuck up, you have to deal with the consequences

>> No.13478028

>>13477963
Why the fuck do you keep going on about savestates? If anything PD is savestate mode. Or are you trying to imply that all the replays are faked? What exactly are you trying to get at by bringing up savestates which do not exist in legacy mode?

>> No.13478031

>>13478026
Sorry, but I don't want to waste hours and hours redoing stage 1-5 over and over just because I fuck up on stage 6

>> No.13478033

>>13477857
>Have you ever considered that not everyone thinks this way and maybe you are in the minority here?
And here come the fallacies.

>Are you telling me that Speedrunners don't feel the heat when they do their self imposed challenges?
If you call lukewarm water "heat," then yes.
>Or what about perfect runs which are quite common amongst STG players?
>implying I wasn't perfecting games since at least five years old
The difference now is I'm not a spastic kid like your runners, and I know playing a game where perfection is demanded from the beginning is more fun.
>You really think they are worthless and not challenging at all?
>inb4 semantics
Difficulty and challenge are not the same things. As I've already explained, when you're incontrol of the challenge, there's no challenge! By definition! A challenge MUST be forced for it to be good in a game, because doing otherwise is less immersive.
>I've done self imposed challenges before and they feel just as real. If they don't for you then maybe you are too weak to keep one and bend the rules when you break.
If I'm a weakling, why am I, except for one other poster, the only one here who wants to throw away the crutches?

>> No.13478039
File: 131 KB, 600x888, 0973eea926a31dbc59d9483c75c93bdc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13478039

This is what ZUN gets for trying to appeal to casuals.

>These games are much better when they're easy enough for me to actually play them! Let's get rid of the old mode that people that actually play bullet hells enjoy! I can't really think of a good reason for it, I just don't want it to be there alongside my casual mode.

I'm quoting your stupid ass.

I'm all for the ADDITION of Pointdevice mode, because it can help people practice and generally adding a mode never detracts from existing modes. REMOVING a mode does nothing for the game. Pointdevice mode wouldn't benefit from the removal of Legacy mode, so there's absolutely no logical reason for it. Making painfully butthurt and uneducated conjecture about game reception is not a valid argument for its removal.

>> No.13478043

>>13477859
I'm sorry you've never read a good book or watched a good movie in your entire life.

>> No.13478044

>>13478033
>A challenge MUST be forced for it to be good in a game, because doing otherwise is less immersive.
Eh, I don't give a shit about immersiveness.

It's a fucking video game.

>> No.13478046

>>13478033
>the only one here who wants to throw away the crutches?
It's more like you're desperately clinging to your crutches and whining that nobody will forcibly take them from you, while everybody else is walking around without them.

>> No.13478047

>>13478033
>If I'm a weakling, why am I, except for one other poster, the only one here who wants to throw away the crutches?
If it seems like everyone except you is wrong, there's a very high probability that you are the one who is wrong.

>> No.13478055

>>13478043
Nigger what?

>> No.13478057

>>13478043
No doubt my enjoyment of books and movies would be higher if I were forced to enjoy them at gunpoint.

>> No.13478059

>>13477816
It's much less mentally fatiguing and time consuming.

>> No.13478070

>>13478059
Eh, what?

Just quit and restart the game, dude.

>> No.13478079

>>13478070
I don't want to waste 20 minutes just to get back to the part I'm stuck at

>> No.13478087

>>13478079
The guy was asking for PD with no retries.

No retries mean you have go through all that shit again, homie.

>> No.13478091

I don't understand why people get mad about the new mode, it's just training mode renamed.

>> No.13478095

Nah, let's remove Pointdevice instead.

>> No.13478102

>>13478091
I don't see anyone mad about the new mode's inclusion. It's just one retard mad about legacy.

>> No.13478114
File: 746 KB, 1035x810, 4849826.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13478114

>>13477225
>You also lose .01 power to give the illusion that there's actually any penalty whatsoever for fucking up.

It will still fuck up your run if you're trying to score. If you die while clearing a spellcard you will end with 3.99P and not in full power, taking longer to clear that spellcard, thus less points when capturing.

>> No.13478121

>>13478091
Not really the same, since Training mode gives you 10 lives+30 bombs
It's more of a saving system

>> No.13478135

>>13477878
You're already forced into things just by starting up the game. You accept whatever settings are in place, then go from there. The question is whether or not you'd still enjoy those restrictions if they were imposed by the developer. If it's a good game, the answer should be yes, since the game will be designed with those restrictions in mind. When you're using self imposed restrictions, you're saying the game could have been better. Longer, or deeper, or making more use of its untapped potential.

>> No.13478150

>>13478114
Fair enough, but it doesn't fuck your score nearly as bad as failing the spellcard. Pointdevice gives you the spellcard bonus even if you retry it.

>> No.13478162

>>13478135
No, playing with self imposed restrictions means a game could have been harder, which is theoretically true for every single game every made.

>> No.13478164

>>13478135
Not really. Most of the time, I only do self imposed restrictions if I like the game enough to play it alot and learn alot about it. I loved FF:T for example. It's also the game where I tried to impose as many restrictions as I could on myself so I could relive that feeling of difficulty I got from playing it the first time.

>> No.13478198
File: 18 KB, 604x453, 1408754998665.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13478198

>>13477844
Your entire problem is internal. You lack willpower.

>> No.13478214

>>13478039
>I'm quoting your stupid ass.
Yeah, no. That's not how it works. Who are you quoting?

>> No.13478216

>>13477021
>I know this since playing SA with no lives and DDC with no lives or bombs
So are we just going to ignore the fact that this is a self-imposed challenge?

>> No.13478235

>>13477932
>This is an awfully pompous thing to say.
It is. But am I wrong? His endless games don't get made anymore.
If you know of some other way to make this work, please post. I highly doubt it, since the entire point of score play is to make the game more difficult. In his games, scoring and survival are separate, while mine merges them. The problem with that is he won't be able to compare himself against other players anymore, and that's a problem because the score matters more than the game. He uses the game AS a game, as competition between players. But there are already tons of games that offer what he wants. There is nothing that offers what I want.

>> No.13478243

>>13477951
The challengefags have already won. They're called scorefags.

>> No.13478245

>>13478235
Just make your own games then.

Luckily, ZUN makes games as he likes because he isn't doing this for profits, your voices wouldn't reach him.

>> No.13478252

>>13478235
That's because what you want is stupid so nobody does it.

>> No.13478258

>>13478235
Voice your opinion to game devs then.
Not to /jp/.
If there's enough of you, it shouldn't be hard.

>> No.13478259

>>13478243
Scorefags are just there to prove that Touhou ain't easy.

They aren't adamant about remove this or remove that to keep the game hard.

>> No.13478266

What the fuck, just let people enjoy the game however they want to. ZUN wanted to try something new and blended it well enough into the plot, but also decided to leave the classic gameplay mode in the game because it's what everyone is used to. There's absolutely no reason to get angry at this, unless something is wrong with you.
By the way, there actually is a penalty for dying in pointdevice mode if you're going for score - try reading the "chapter cleared" screen and you might notice it.

>> No.13478274

>>13478235
You seem to be under the impression that everyone thinks the way that you think they think.

>> No.13478356

>>13477953
You're being too literal. I never once said I wanted a perfect no miss clear game. I want a system that requires you to do scoring tricks to win. If the game is too easy (legacy mode, somewhat so with infinite retries) then they can be completely ignored. If the game is too hard, lower the difficulty setting. This is something that needs to be fixed in LoLK. You need one million points per fragment for each difficulty. That needs to be significantly reduced for normal and easy, and significantly increased for Lunatic.
I am personally playing without retries because it's closer to what I want compared to infinite retries (because I need to score to get bombs) and legacy mode (because why score when you get free bombs each death). It's the stage design that really makes or breaks the deal, not the one-life requirement.

>What we could hopefully see however is a return of systems that were in place in PCB or IN.
Only if they're done right. IN was pointless because you don't need orbs to win. They only let you try extra attacks at the end of the game (which, ironically, end the game instantly if you get hit once).

It was never about being perfect. It's about making use of everything the game offers. That means the scoring system, and for me, that means no retries. You already have infinite continues in legacy, so I have no idea why he didn't make a cap for pd.

>> No.13478378

>>13478356
I want I want I want.

So make the game you want, dude.

ZUN is one fucking man, the same as you.

>> No.13478425

>>13477969
>a system that limits resources has nothing to do with a system that limits resources
>implying this is about resources
Forest and trees, dude.

>> No.13478435

>>13478425
Who are you quoting?

>> No.13478511

>>13478425
>implying this is about resources
>Here's what's wrong with touhou, and many shmups in general, which pd fixes. Let's say you have three lives per bomb, and start with three lives. Dying can count as a bomb since it clears bullets around you, so that's four. You gain three lives by the end of the game, so that's six. Six by four is 24 bombs at your disposal. The problem with this is that, once you can handle the first three or four stages, you can bomb your way through to the end.

Your problem is you or whoever keeps talking about pointdevice mode when you really had some utterly fictional no miss mode in mind, hence why everyone got confused. And while doing a bad icycalm impression to top it off. Just stop.

>> No.13478532

>>13477973
That's the same as the "delete your softcore Diablo character" argument. It does not hold.

>> No.13478546

>>13477225
>Basically easy peasy shit for bottomfeeders.
And why are you bitching about it, when legacy mode is still there?

>> No.13478561

>>13478532
It still holds though.

You can totally do that if you want.

>> No.13478586

>>13476569
Legacy is now the optional classic game, so is obvious that it was meant to be a lot harder than usual, but no so many people like the retry feature, I guess

>> No.13478618

Hey guys, since this is an alpha and all, why don't some of you just take the time to mail ZUN a hardcopy Japanese message, explaining why you think pointdevice should be the default.

I mean, I can only read Japanese, but I am sure some of you can manage, especially those in Japan.

I prefer Legacy myself though

>> No.13478637

>>13478618
It's a demo you fucking ass.

And I don't want to do that, fuck off faggot.

>> No.13478668

Why not just ignore the game like you do with UFO, StB and DS if you hate the new system so much?

>> No.13478816

>>13478637
He flat out said in the announcement before Reitasai that this build was completed in a rush, and that changes could be expected. Also, its version 0.01a. At worst he would ignore you, maybe possibly make him offended, though I doubt it.

>And I don't want to do that, fuck off faggot.

Then why are you complaining?

ZUN obviously has a different mindset about it, and if you think its so subpar, no one is forcing you to play the game in the other option, or play the game at all.

>> No.13478872

>>13477350
The point is you can't clear nearly every single spell in the game back-to-back. If you want to try it right now go clear ISC from start to finish. That's what Pointdevice tastes like. Actually, fuck, just play Lunatic Pointdevice and see how far you can go before dropping it.

>> No.13478873

>>13478816
I'm not the faggot OP.

>> No.13478885

>>13478816
Should the pointdevice cap be different for each difficulty?

>> No.13478960

>>13478511
>implying I have anything to do with icycuck
Scorefags have been around since 1999, dude. Do you even Unreal Tournament?
I'll stop when zun adds retry cap or >>13477953
>systems that were in place in PCB or IN (if they're done right)
Someone should give him a LoLK review, though. Somebody told him IN is 5 stars and he fell for it. Worst system, worst bosses, worst and grindyest unlocks, 5 stars.

>> No.13478987

>>13478960
Please, please get out.

>> No.13478998

>>13478987
Do you have a single point to dispute?

>> No.13479031

>>13478998
No, I just think you should get out of /jp/.

>> No.13479036

Not sure why point device mode is there other than a practice mode
Zun shoulda made it a fairly more difficult puzzle danmaku campaign not the same thing...

At least marisa is fixed and no more ass damage flamethrower or bomb that makes me guilty to use

>> No.13479038

>>13478960
Have you even played it or are you only here to flaunt theories? There's no need for a retry cap because misusage of bombs means you will be stuck forever.
But you're welcome to try to capture Ringo's last attack and any of stage 3's nonspells.

>> No.13479049

>>13479036
ZUN shoulda, coulda.

Just make your own game, nerd.

It literally applies this time, because Touhou is an one-man job.

>> No.13479060

>>13479036
>Zun shoulda made it a fairly more difficult puzzle danmaku campaign
Play stage 3 retard.

>> No.13479353

Doesn't pointdevice mode make it more feasible for mediocre to bad players to start trying to play for score?
As a mediocre player myself I find it weird that the points isn't what I'm primarily going for. I'm going for survival.
In games like Ikaruga getting points and mastering stages makes survival much easier.
If you're not gonna make point system the source for resources, you might as well remove the survival aspect and make everyone play for points.

>> No.13479393

>>13479353
Since it's the only way to get bombs in that mode, yeah

>> No.13479394

>>13479353
Sorry, kid. Stick to real modes like legacy.

>> No.13479435

>>13479353

>Doesn't pointdevice mode make it more feasible for mediocre to bad players to start trying to play for score?

Not sure about that, but it makes bad players have to do a considerable jump in skill that I'm going to assume many of us have already done.

Now I'm sure there are some very talented players here but I'd wager the majority of us didn't do so well when we first started playing STGs/danmakus. Continues were great for us back then, it allowed us to see what lied ahead and unlocked stages for practice, which led us to eventually manning up and conquering the games without having to resort to continuing.
But that is only true for some of us really.

A lot of players are very comfortable in keeping in that level. While bad ending the game, continuing allows them to beat the game anyway so it doesn't matter for them. Those players just cheese through the games every time and never learn how to properly play them.

I think the addition of PointDevice will be great for those players. You can't just cheese the game anymore, either you learn how to beat some patterns or you get stuck indefinitely. Maybe now they will finally acquire new skills that they just didn't before because they relied on extra credits. The continue system in UFO (and TD? not sure) had a similar effect but those players avoided UFO anyway because of its weird system so it didn't matter much then.

>> No.13479509

>>13479435
>get stuck indefinitely
Why do people keep saying this?

>> No.13479569

>>13479509

You haven't seen the 50-99 tries some people have been posting? Especially on Doremy's final card. If it was on Legacy a hit or a bomb would be enough.

>> No.13479578

>>13479569
that's not a lot of tries

>> No.13479604

>>13479578

Yes it is.

>> No.13480132

what does pointdevice even do

>> No.13480283

>>13477225
>Basically easy peasy shit for bottomfeeders.
I like Pointdevice and I've cleared every EX boss and Lunatic. Want to compare scores, see who's the bottom-feeder?

>> No.13480564

God, this was so much shittier than DDC's demo. Never want to play through its Lunatic again.

>> No.13480568

>>13480564
Shittier or harder?

>> No.13480577

>>13480568
Less fun.

>> No.13480589

>>13480577
Sound harder.

>> No.13480606

>>13480589
I enjoy hard content, and LoLK was definitely a lot harder than DDC was. Usually this meant I'd play it more to perfect the stages but I'm just not feeling it.

>> No.13480617

>>13480606
You just can't handle the moon pressure, anon.

>> No.13480643

>>13479435
>Not sure about that, but it makes bad players have to do a considerable jump in skill that I'm going to assume many of us have already done.

This.

I played TH14 again after clearing Normal on TH15 and man, it felt easy now.

>> No.13481057

>>13480617
Sounds like they couldn't handle the streaming.

>> No.13481254

>>13480617
>>13481057
>this game's hard for me so it's hard for everyone
>oh no he's using meme arrows incorrectly!!!
Whatever floats your boat, anons.

>> No.13481276

>>13481254
Who are you quoting?

And even that anon admits that it's harder than DDC.

>> No.13482495

>>13481276
>Who are you quoting?
>>oh no he's using meme arrows incorrectly!!!

I'm probably also the only person here who found Pointdevice more difficult to clear than Legacy on Lunatic because you could just bomb everything with Reisen on Legacy like a pussy bitch. The .01 power loss really stacks up if you're stuck on a particular attack.

>> No.13482574

>>13482495

That is entirely dependable on how many resources we will be able to get on the final game.

And Reisen is a poor example isn't it? I don't recall at the moment but her safe bomb doesn't clear bullets or give damage, does it? In harsh spells you will just take several hits in a row.

>> No.13482655

>>13482574
I'd say it's pretty likely that Pointdevice will give out fewer resources overall with the current system unless ZUN does something drastic.

Reisen clears some bullets around you and you can still dodge regardless. It's not like you should lose your focus when you bomb anyway.

>> No.13482808

>>13476559
>nobody recognizes pointdevice mode as a valid mode anyway,
This is a problem with the user, not with the game. The game's backstory itself explains the presence of Pointdevice, providing it with all the validity anyone could ask for.

>> No.13482813

>>13482808
>This is a problem with the user
We both know that going Pointdevice is unacceptable for anyone older than elementary school age.

>> No.13482860

>>13476323
WHY IS EVERYONE ANGRY

IF YOU FUCK UP AND DIE IN POINTDEVICE, THE GAME RECORDS IT

IT LISTS THE NUMBER OF RETRIES YOUR DAMN FOOL ASS NEEDED TO GET THROUGH THE GAME

YES, MORE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THE GAME THIS WAY, BUT AT THE COST OF MASSIVE NUMBERS OF RETRIES

YOU WILL STILL BE ABLE TO LAUGH AT CASUALS WHO BEAT THE GAME WITH >300 RETRIES

>> No.13482966

>>13482860
I just think it sucks. I'm not upset about it, I just play Legacy instead.

>> No.13483026

Have there been any "perfect" runs of the game on Lunatic yet or is the danmaku just that bullshit?

I think I'm even less enthusiastic to play the whole game after the demo than I was with TD.

>> No.13483051

>>13483026
DDC demo was perfected the day it came out.

A perfect LoLK run is child's play. You should be asking for a perfect, bombless run with every chapter meeting the fragment quota.

>> No.13483068

I've just been using PD as a sort of practice mode. Legacy is where the hardboys hang out.

>> No.13483144

>>13483051
"Perfect" usually includes bombless. Plus I'm not talking about Pointdevice either.

Got a replay of you perfecting it if it's child's play?

>> No.13487332

>>13483068
Post your scores.

>> No.13487580

I like this new touhou

>> No.13487778
File: 26 KB, 348x313, 12312777232.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
13487778

>>13482860
> WHO BEAT THE GAME WITH >300 RETRIES
> tfw it's me
> i beat normal with like 400 retries
Beating stage 3 boss with 1.00 power was not so easy, m8.

>> No.13487820

>>13487778
> tfw it's me
> i beat normal with like 400 retries
Who are you quoting here?

>> No.13487835

>>13487820
lol?
Did you even read the thread?

>> No.13491781

doesn't "pointdevice mode" just make it more like r-type

>> No.13497429

>>13491781
Explain.

>> No.13504361

>>13491781
Please respond.

>> No.13509806

>>13491781
You mean a checkpoint shooter?

Yeah, kind of... except you can infinitely continue from said checkpoint, so it's more like IWBTG.

>>
Reply to thread [?]Don't expect anything heroic. Your post will not be uploaded to the original board.
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Action