Moe Culture and the Fetishization of Innocence

[Anonymous No.]

I was reading an old article from Japan Times about moe culture, and I was hoping to generate some discussion about the creepier parts of the community.

Let's face it: a large portion of the otaku community consists of men, a lot of whom are obsessed with the idea of innocence and cuteness. This is readily apparent on this image board. For instance, any time a waifu thread pops up and anything even approaching sexual is mentioned with regard to someone's waifu, hell seems to break out, and allegations of this character or that character being a slut surface. Although it's easy to say it's an ironic joke (and I'm willing to concede that, to a great degree, it is a joke), the fact that the joke even developed is pretty telling about the mindset of the average poster.

What compounds the issue is the generally creepy way age discrepancy plays a role in moe. A lot of us are college-aged guys, but a good portion of the otaku community consists of people in their late twenties--sometimes thirties, forties, and even older. The obsession grown men have idolizing young, high school- (or even middle school-) aged girls is odd, to say the least. And while it's easy to chalk it up to pedophilia, I don't think that's quite right, because the obsession isn't necessarily sexual. I realize I'm painting rather broad strokes, and there are some nuances I'm breezing over, but I think these stereotypes speak to some sort of issue that pervades the culture.

What do you think? Is there a reason moe romanticizes innocence and youth? And do people exhibit these behaviors as a result of moe culture, or does moe attract people with the behaviors?

I hope this doesn't come across as flaming or baiting. I think it would be a good thing for the community to look at itself in a different light, if just for the sake of understanding.

[Anonymous No.]

your post was too long, please rectify that

[Anonymous No.]

Here's the article that inspired my post: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2014/07/26/books/book-reviews/japans-moe-obsession-purest-form-love-creepy-fetishization-young-girls/

Fair bit of warning, though: the writer comes across as pretty negative about judgmental about otaku and moe, in general. He's definitely a douche.

[Anonymous No.]

this is now a 2hu loli thread

[Anonymous No.]

Who cares? Out of anything to get upset about why this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>>>/a/
>>>/lit/

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843939
I'd like to think a couple of paragraphs wouldn't serve as a literacy barrier.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't think admiring the beauty of youth is anything out of the ordinary

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843959
the k-on picture was really the warning sign that i didn't care about what you had to say

[Anonymous No.]

let me solve this for you. it's because people who are interested in moe are man-children who never grew up and matured to handle real relationships and contact with people. so they escaped into the bullshit you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843968
This... is a lot more of brutal reality than I wanted to deal with tonight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843980
You haven't realized this until now?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843980
Yeah sure is, especially if you've only been browsing 4chan for a week! I suggest taking some time off to recuperate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>Let's face it: a large portion of the otaku community consists of men, a lot of whom are obsessed with the idea of innocence and cuteness.
No shit. That's the point. The world is terrible, we prefer to look at things that aren't terrible.

Want to enlighten us about what you get when you add two and two? Maybe generate some discussion about how the result is four?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>Is there a reason moe romanticizes innocence and youth?

As far as I have seen, people interested in "moe" portrayals of characters feel a sense of regret and anguish that they didn't live out their "younger" years the way they wanted to live them out.

I mean, many of us are unattractive in many ways: fat, ugly, mean-spirited, mentally ill, etc, and we never had the chance to experience teenage attraction and infatuation at that age, and now that we are too old to ever have a glimpse that part of life.

So, in order to curb these feelings of intense regret, people try to fill the void by living vicariously through the lives of "moe" characters, and try to imagine having those strong teenage emotions themselves.

When I see myself, and realize that I have never had much experience with romance despite my age, and when I realize that other people my age have a lot of experience with these feelings, I feel alienated from my peers, knowing that they passed this "stage" of their lives over a decade ago, and I still haven't even begun to experience those feelings. I think that's why many of these people like the idea of innocence, because it makes themselves feel more comfortable with their lack of experience.

In other words, I (and I imagine those in similar positions to me) have missed the train to a healthy love life, and I will never be able to get on the train again. To make myself feel less shit, and to help curb the regret, I look at the lives of these characters to try to catch a glimpse of what my life would have been like back in my younger days, had I not royally fucked up.

[Anonymous No.]

I wanna fug hags.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
This guy hit the nail on the head, OP. In large part, I'd imagine the majority of us engage with anime and other related media for the purposes of escapism. I know that's why I play VN's, especially of the high school nature.

It's nice to be able to experience things that you missed out on. Is it good or healthy? It can be, to some extent. But when it becomes a central point in your life, when it becomes something you obsess over, it can have pretty overall negative impact on your life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>creepy
Get out of /jp/

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844053
No wonder people in Britain are so depressing. This is the shit their premier TV channel comes up with?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
nothing new here

[Anonymous No.]

>It's nice to be able to experience things that you missed out on. Is it good or healthy? It can be, to some extent. But when it becomes a central point in your life, when it becomes something you obsess over, it can have pretty overall negative impact on your life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023

This is pretty much it. I kinda have this relationship with idols. Hopefully since I realize this, I'll never take it too far. I'm using it for escapism, not a replacement. For now. The hope that my life will ever change is just that.

That, and teenage bodies are great to look at.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>Let's face it: a large portion of the otaku community consists of men
I was reading "The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers Volume 1" By Szczepaniak and in ZUN's interview there was some history on Comiket that I found interesting:
When Comiket began in the 1970s, the attendees were overwhelmingly women buying and selling secondary manga works as well as original creations (including quite a bit of yaoi, or Boy’s Love). Perhaps this shouldn’t be so surprising, given that women have always played a leading role in fanfiction communities in the West too. When it comes to risqué content, women invented “slash fiction” pretty much single-handedly. Contrary to popular conceptions, even today the majority of doujin creators selling work at Comiket are women, around 60% as of Comiket #84 (summer 2013). Historically speaking, female doujin creators at Comiket have generally outnumbered their male counterparts by more than 2:1. The demographics likely skew towards men for doujin games and software in particular, but it’s important to note that a huge chunk of overall doujin output, even the really hardcore stuff, is actually created and consumed by women.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844156
More from that ZUN interview:
JS: There’s a lot of characters in the Touhou series. One estimate I heard is there are over 150 characters. Is that true? The majority also appear to be cute girls.
ZUN: I don’t know how many characters there in the series. <laughs> I’ve never counted. I’m fairly confident that the fans’ counting of them on the internet is probably accurate. So, sure, 150 perhaps. In terms of why there are more girls in the series than men, that’s definitely a conscious design decision that I made. I believe that the play style of danmaku games has a feminine aspect to it. It’s not a toe-to-toe contest of strength; you don’t simply run up and pummel the enemy.
JS: Right, in an action game with soldiers, or people carrying guns, the image is one of men.
ZUN: With danmaku, I’m trying to make games that are beautiful. The way the bullets move, the way the game is played, it’s a visual spectacle, and I think it has beauty in it. When you think of beauty as a general thing, you tend to think of women rather than men, so it’s more a case of… I think danmaku and the games I create are more about aesthetics than they are about action. Although they feature bullets, they’re not about guns. So that’s the kind of game reason, but also I just think it’s easier to make pretty looking girls, to make it appealing, than it is with men.
JS: A very eloquent answer.
ZUN: Yes, it’s definitely to do with that, and I certainly think it’s okay to feature both male and female characters in games, but I do feel like if I put a lot of male characters in the game, it will make the game seem like a more aggressive, toe-to-toe contest. Also, something that I think maybe people assume, is that I put a lot of girls in because it’s what my fans want, but that’s not the case. That has nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844162
Last bit that's relevant and most important to the thread:
JS: I know from planning the book’s cover, there seems to be a growing aversion to the feminine form. It’s an excellent policy to focus on your own vision. Many creators today are worried about trying to appeal to everyone, and companies have focus groups to increase sales.
ZUN: I definitely think that is an issue, although I would say if they do it well, I don’t really have a problem with it. But I can see where you’re coming from with that. I would say that in terms of Touhou, one of the things that I’m doing, and one of things I’m aware of, is I try to invent or use characters that I believe link to the style of the level.
JS: So a tricky level might have a mysterious looking character, compared to an easy level where a character would appear friendly?
ZUN: I think that putting in characters – certainly in terms of Touhou – it’s not just to sell titles or to appeal, I think it absolutely has an effect on the gameplay and on the game’s design. They’re not arbitrary at all, they’re part of the design of the game.
JS: I think fans notice. Something which is scary to hear in the West is, “Oh yeah, we went to a focus group to make decisions for us.” Which then dilutes the vision of the creator.
ZUN: I think most companies in Japan do it as well. For example, a company might look at Touhou and think, “That’s pretty successful, so let’s stick a load of pretty girls in our game, it’s bound to work.” That kind of thinking is pervasive now, but it’s an attitude that doesn’t come from the actual game developers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844156
Huh. It is interesting that women are particularly interested in BL. As a gay guy myself, I fail to see how otherwise heterosexual women would be interested in that sort of thing. If it's escapism, it's on a level that I'm unfamiliar with. At least I understand the moe otaku.

>>12844167
>I think fans notice. Something which is scary to hear in the West is, “Oh yeah, we went to a focus group to make decisions for us.” Which then dilutes the vision of the creator.
Granted, I think this is far more of a pervasive mindset in Japan nowadays. Fan service can make or break a series.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844183
>It is interesting that women are particularly interested in BL.
Look at how much of 4chan (myself included) are interested in yuri anime and yuri pairings. I'd bet it's the same thing.

Hell, even normals comment on how they like lesbian porn even if it's just because, "I'm not gay brah, I don't wanna see dicks."

>I think this is far more of a pervasive mindset in Japan nowadays.
Look at all of the people on /v/ complaining about "SJWs in muh vidya," and Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's not exclusive to Japan, just a different flavor.
I do partially agree with the Fan service point, but I think there that while a game can do well with or without fan service, having the fan service creates secondary work at things like Comiket and keeps interest in the series giving the developers a gauge of how popular a sequel would be, and keeps the fan interest until the next game comes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844183
>It is interesting that women are particularly interested in BL.
How new do you have to be to know know about fujoshi?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844167
>JS: I think fans notice. Something which is scary to hear in the West is, “Oh yeah, we went to a focus group to make decisions for us.” Which then dilutes the vision of the creator.
>ZUN: I think most companies in Japan do it as well. For example, a company might look at Touhou and think, “That’s pretty successful, so let’s stick a load of pretty girls in our game, it’s bound to work.” That kind of thinking is pervasive now, but it’s an attitude that doesn’t come from the actual game developers.

and so was born kancole

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
You can't seriously be asking why people take refugee from the ugly, cruel world and their bitter existence in innocence and cutenesss.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
I don't consider myself to be in any way "damaged" mentally or emotionnally.
I just like moe media because I appreciate cute things and prefer the idealistic 2D form over real women with serious flaws (usually both mental and physical at once)
Regarding the issue of age, it's the normies that are wrong. My age doesn't mean much here. I think that it's okay to appreciate "pure" girls in their prime over 30 year old 3D women that are already used up but still demanding. There's nothing appealing in them, even if they are nearer to my age. This is natural, but the propaganda of modern society tries to say otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845337
>This is natural, but the propaganda of modern society tries to say otherwise.
Modern society fetishizes relationships between equals.

[Anonymous No.]

Contribution from a passerby old fogey. The people I know in my age range (40+) that enjoy moe are often looking back to the way we were raised and how it seems to be missing from the modern real world. Anime offers simple, coherent rules that, in any rational world, would be basic common sense. It's nice to escape to a world where good people are rewarded for being good instead of shit on, rejected, and tossed aside by dickheads and bitches for the crime of thinking it's okay to be thoughtful, polite, and friendly.

Make of it what you will.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845372
Legitimately appreciated, ojisan

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>the Fetishization of Innocence
Welcome to ca 1000 B.C.

[Anonymous No.]

As a 36 otaku, I somehow agree with >>12844023
I can't really picture myself entering a relationship with a young girl, at least not anymore now that I'm that old, but I understand why so many men as old as me would.

As someone said earlier, in my 20s I probably discovered more emotions thanks to >anime rather than reality. Let's face it, in society either you act as a politically correct sheep or you're out of the system, add to it that I was always socially awkward and the 3rd wave western feminism judging you because "you're not a "successful man, therefore you're a manchild" and you have it.

[Anonymous No.]

A lot of people who watch moe shows probably have some form of depression. Happy things always happen in moe shows. Even when bad things do happen it's resolved almost instantly and everyone is back to being happy. Nothing like their real boring depressing lives.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845492
Good luck and stay strong, man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
This entire post reeks of THINK OF THE CHILDREN normaltrash thinking.

It's normal for old dudes to like young girls. As is the reverse.

[Anonymous No.]

jesus I'm not sure if this is trolling or autism, people like cute shit, deal with it fucktard

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845671
Was this the shittiest thread you could find to bump?

>>12843933
>For instance, any time a waifu thread pops up
Back to >>>/a/

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845708
>back to >>>/a/
That irrational hate always gets me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845724
And I hope you get out too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845728
I won't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845724
/a/'s waifu threads seem to be almost entirely made out of personal blogging, they're not great.

>>12845671
I don't think I could put it better than that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845724
>irrational

I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845708
>For instance, any time a waifu thread pops up
Half of those image dumps are waifu threads, they just don't say the big, bad word.

>>12843949
You didn't do a very good job.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845735
Well, enjoy your last word, if you don't leave, I leave.

I'm outta this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

Any grand scale analysis that tries to fabricate an essential motivation is misguided and will inevitably fail.

Moe doesn't romanticize youth specifically. I see moe characteristics as a subset of memes in general - broadly recognizable ideas that hold some form of cultural relevance/conscious identity. The ones fixated upon in "otaku" media are a product of the historical context of the media and the fact that hey, young tits and ass are going to hold a timeless, marketable appeal. There's no essential relationship between the state of moe at any given time and what activities the commercial face of the industry chooses to engage in. The popularization of moe concepts has the capacity, as does any other form of , to influence public behavior. The behaviours explored by moe however do not have to reflect reality - they just need to be intellectually contagious.

The sheer novelty and visual splendor were the major appeals for me. No convoluted analysis of self is going to detract from the simple fact that colorful, hyperreal lolis are just fucking fascinating.

[Anonymous No.]

Any grand scale analysis that tries to fabricate an essential motivation is misguided and will inevitably fail.

Moe doesn't romanticize youth specifically. I see moe characteristics as a subset of memes in general - broadly recognizable ideas that hold some form of cultural appeal and can assume conscious identity. The ones fixated upon in "otaku" media are a product of the historical context of the media and the fact that hey, young tits and ass are going to hold a timeless, marketable appeal. There's no essential relationship between the state of moe at any given time and what activities the commercial face of the industry chooses to engage in. The popularization of moe concepts has the capacity, as does any other form of socially modulating agent, to influence behavior. The behaviors explored by moe however do not have to reflect reality - they just need to be intellectually contagious.

The sheer novelty and visual splendor were the major appeals for me. No convoluted analysis of self is going to detract from the simple fact that colorful, hyperreal lolis are just fucking fascinating.

[Anonymous No.]

Age discrepancy being an issue is quite a recent development.
Not a bad one, per se, just let me have my fantasies.

[Anonymous No.]

Fictional high school girls are great. I get older, but they stay the same age.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>The obsession grown men have idolizing young, high school- (or even middle school-) aged girls is odd, to say the least
Any heterosexual man, normalfag or not, is at large going to find girls in the 14-25 age group the most attractive. Due to various reasons they might hide this fact and the vast majority won't act on it if the age difference is too large, but being attracted to young girls is the default state. Same goes for cuteness.

Obsession with specific animu characters is a different thing but that's not that relevant to this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

The greatest issue I can see here is taking moe too far, it's all about a "lol that's cute" reaction , getting obsessed with something that doesn't exist is wrong in first place, doesn't care if moe or not.

And about liking cute and innocent things...isn't this kind of idealistic perfection everyone most personal wish? Seeing this in moe things is natural since that's supposed to be their appeal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845879
No matter how I look at it, this thread is specifically about moe (i.e. obsession with animu characters) and not about sexual attraction to young females.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845908
>getting obsessed with something that doesn't exist is wrong in first place
Dude, this is wrong. For example: people want happiness, some people are obsessed with it but happiness doesn't actually exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845930
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRah9_LFBVg

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845940
How is it edgy to claim that happiness doesn't exist?

It's just feeling/chemical reaction in your brain, dude, it's no different than feeling in love with a fictional character or a drawing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845930
There is nothing perfect, yet human must desire perfection in order to get the closest possible from it.

But in our case, moe is not supposed to be that, it's just an idealization of a innocent young girl, something you can never ever get close in reality

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845908
>getting obsessed with something that doesn't exist is wrong in first place
What happens if nothing at all holds a proper physical existence and reality is in fact characterized by an irreconcilable detachment from the simplistic conceptual structure humans arbitrarily impose upon it?

Are you a retarded 12 year old, or the cosmic nihilist that will finally put an end to humanity's collective delusions?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845948
>it's just an idealization of a innocent young girl
A perfection in some case.
>There is nothing perfect
In which case, moe is just another human desire in order to get close to perfect.

It's no different than the pursuit of the fabled happiness.

You contradict yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845953
No one can answer such a thing, but we can still get close if we continuously ask ourselves everything we can

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845970
I just find it hilarious because that dude thinks obsession with something doesn't exist is wrong, but apparently, the pursuit of happiness, which doesn't actually exist, is okay.

Bah, I guess humans are natural hypocrites.

[Anonymous No.]

And moe is not the "idealization of an innocent young girl", moe is an obsession of things that you like.

Goddamn, for a bunch of otaku analysis, you can't even get the technical definition right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846006
There are university essays completely wrong about several concepts of otaku culture (which would be easily fixed by, you know, learning japanese).

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845989

>I just find it hilarious because that dude thinks obsession with something doesn't exist is wrong, but apparently, the pursuit of happiness, which doesn't actually exist, is okay.

Isn't this contradictory as well? Saying happiness doesn't exist can't be seen as a pathetic excuse to justify the fact you are unable to being happy?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846010
No, I fear even the japanese get it wrong sometimes, by using stuff like moebuta and moeshows.

It's just shit eating shit, a bunch of cute girls being moe is what the majority considers to be "moe", so moe is reduced to just that, just like otaku culture is reduced to anime/manga culture.

[Anonymous No.]

Mods are deleting posts left and right today but appearently this thread is perfectly fine

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846012
I can say saying moe doesn't exist can be seen as a pathetic excuse to justify the fact you are unable of being moe, man.

Same fucking shit.

And please don't say buh bugh moe is bad and happiness is good! But are feel good feelings at the end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846015
you're the definition of retarded, please kill yourself

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846016
Because janny is fucking scum.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846021
No, thank you, I like living.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846027
think of humanity

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846019
Duh, but didn't you say earlier moe can be considered an pursuit of happiness?
That's the way you want to obtain happiness, being moe or liking moe things isn't your final objective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846024
tru, bet he's mexican too

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846034
I said moe can be considered to be a pursuit of perfection, which doesn't exist, like happiness.

But yes, it can be seen so, because both are ultimately about feeling good.

I'm not the dude who said obsession towards something that doesn't exist is "wrong".

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846019
There is no evidence to support the fact happiness exist, nor the opposite.

However, the proof moe doesn't exist is far too obvious. Facts and evidences, anon, there is nothing else it matters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846066
see >>12846067

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846067
Where are some evidences that "moe" don't exist?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846072
I thought it was obvious but guess I was wrong...
Have your ever seen a perfectly innocent and cute human? If you claim moeness can considered perfection, then if this human exist can he/she be called a perfect being?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846079
I have not seen a perfectly innocent and cute human, but I haven't seen happiness either.

Does that mean there are evidences that happiness doesn't exist?

>If you claim moeness can considered perfection, then if this human exist can he/she be called a perfect being?
"moe"ness isn't really an objective trait, even if some people find that guy a perfect, other people might disagree.

[Anonymous No.]

Last week I was on a train and a 13-14 years old wearing a skirt sat in front of me. The moment she moved her bag and revealed her black thigh highs she looked at me to see if I was staring at her legs. I wasn't. Fuck that cunt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846094
Nice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846085
Perfection is objective, otherwise it won't be "perfect" more like "99% of the people likes it"

And no, as said before, there are absolutely no proof happiness exist, nor the opposite.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846096
Well, then I must admit that I'm wrong since moe is different per people and people, therefore it cannot be counted as perfection.

But since happiness isn't objective either, I cast doubt to the whole pursuit of happiness means pursuit of perfection.

>And no, as said before, there are absolutely no proof happiness exist, nor the opposite.
Then there are no proofs that "moe" exist, nor the opposite, the same thing as happiness because both are ultimately feelings individual experience.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846010
>university essays
Oh my fucking god.

Arguing semantics with /jp/ is always disappointing but it's usually not this embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846096
>Perfection is objective
and you are 12

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846109
Speaking of semantics, how do you understand moe?

I hope it's not the same moe = cute and innocent girl shit, because moe is a feeling.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846095
She wasn't alone, otherwise I would have flirted with her. It's so easy to get younger cunts

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846120
Not cool.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846096
My point being :
Be obsessed with something, especially if it doesn't exist is wrong, the reason is simply because that's not what you really want to accomplish as an human being. Believing something like that can lead you to think things like "the world is shit" or "I'm useless" AKA getting depressed because you will never ever accomplish what you really want, and the reason is simply because you are doing it wrong, not because you can't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846125
It's cool if they want it

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846016
How is moe culture not /jp/ related?

Just because you don't like this thread doesn't mean that it should be deleted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846127
So basically you want to dictate what people think, you think you know what people "really want" better than the people themselves.

It's cool and all, but you still have yet to prove that moe or happiness exist, or doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846108
There are proof moe doesn't exist, and it's the simple "human aren't perfect" fact

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846131
Welcome to shitposter logic. It doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846131
Because if you don't understand moe, don't try to speak of its culture.

It would be like the blind trying to read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846134
Then consider the proofs that happiness doesn't exist due to the simple fact "happiness isn't objective".

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846142
It is, the way you "obtain it", can be subjective though

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846127
>as an human being
Now there. You're implying lots of things that people have a right to disagree with.

Actually I think we're spot on. People blame moe because it supposedly make men not functional human being in a society that is already fucked beyond any kind of salvation if you want my honest opinion.

>>12845806
>young tits and ass are going to hold a timeless
This guy gets it. It should be important to note that most young anime girls have ridiculous large breasts and a perfectly nice ass, which is usually impossible when this young. until our generation for some reason

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846117
I wrote >>12845806. Things that are perceived to be "moe" in any sense are memetic phenomena. What is deemed moe is dependent upon on how you define and subsequently limit this subset of memes.

Moe could refer to qualities of characters, actions of characters, recurring/self-referential tendencies, etc. It's not in any way limited to cute girls/pockey xD

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846148
But you can obtain moe as well, and it's also subjective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846151
>What is deemed moe is dependent upon on how you define and subsequently limit this subset of memes.
Well, this much I agree.

Moe is dependent on the individual's reaction to thing, too bad people stop at the cute girls.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846157
I'm not sure about the way you obtain moe...

BTW, maybe I'm not being clear enough. When I say "Happiness" I mostly refer to perfection more than anything

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846164
But happiness is subjective, and you say perfection is objective.

And the way to obtain moe is simple, you watch a show, you play a game, you shoot a gun, you find that hot and appealing to you, making you all tingling inside, congratulation, you just obtain moe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846163
Cause cuteness in universal, I suppose

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846168
Cuteness and appearance are subjective to a degree.

Which is why people argue about who's more beautiful, which is kinda meaningless, which it's why I find the guys who think moe = perfect cute and innocent girl to be lacking in their own logic, since people went on and on to bicker and argue who's more moe, if they are already perfect, everyone would like these "moe" characters..

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846167
That was not exactly my concept of moe...
I was sticking to the Cute/Innocent/Young/Quirky rule

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846178
Well, then your concept of moe is frankly wrong.

It got a definition, and it's not cute/innocent/young. Moe means a feeling, not a character trait.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846176
This kinda proves my previous point about perfection being objective,

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846185
But it's not.

People argue and bicker about who's more moe, and with no objective scale in sight.

How is that moe/perfection being objective?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846179
>Moe means a feeling, not a character trait.

And character traits can provoke feelings in people, especially if they are overplayed. Is that not moe?

Fuck you're dumb. Please cease posting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846179
If it's the feeling, than moe is basically being obsessed with a fictional being? How is this even different from believing in a random God?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846190
It never was perfect to begin with if it had a flaw people can argue about

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846191
Character traits can provoke feeling, but different character traits resonate with different people, that is how different kind of moe come into being.

By saying moe is cute/young/innocent, you basically ignore all other kinds of "moe".

So no sir, I think you are one who haven't thought this through.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846202
So moe isn't perfection, nice.

More proofs moe can exist then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846199
There's no difference, which is why I equate moe with happiness and other things that only exist in your mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846216
Didn't we say earlier moe is idealization?
But I am speaking about the concept of moe, not a moe character

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846211
>By saying moe is cute/young/innocent, you basically ignore all other kinds of "moe".

And yet, they are still feelings. Feelings can not be "wrong"

Ergo, moe is completely subjective, and whatever I fucking want it to be.

You are a fucking retard. Please apologize to the world before jumping off a cliff.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846234
That's what you said. But moe is feeling, a reaction, and an obsession.

Idealization doesn't necessarily mean the character would create a feeling of moe with the viewers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846238
Happiness can`t be what you want it to be, but it's still a feeling. Nice try there, relativist scum.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846238
I have never said moe is objective man.

You are arguing the wrong guy.

And yes, I do submit to the idea that moe means anything that gives you that tingling feeling, I do not subject to the thought that moe means "idealization of innocent girl", that is horseshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846249
> I do submit to the idea that moe means anything that gives you that tingling feeling
>I do not subject to the thought that moe means "idealization of innocent girl", that is horseshit.

I do not understand how you colossal retards can say one thing, but then immediately contradict yourself with the very next sentence.

How? Just why do you even expect any single person in this thread to take you even remotely seriously, when you repeatedly prove you are beyond mental retardation?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846260
...What is contradictory about that?

Do you just assume that "idealization of innocent girl" gives everyone that feeling?

[Anonymous No.]

Looks like there is even a bigger issue here : there are too many different conceptions of "moe. It's getting a bit confusing...

Can we come up with an unique concept?

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Life is shit and people want cute things so they can temporarily pretend that it isn't.

Innocence and youth are cute. Old age and cynicism aren't cute. Well, I guess maybe they could be but that would require more effort and otaku culture is all about the low hanging fruit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846269
>Do you just assume that "idealization of innocent girl" gives everyone that feeling?

No, you fucking idiot. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible. Wasn't there a person in this thread who said that very same thing?

You need to fucking apply yourself, you mongoloid animal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846271
>Moe (萌え?, pronounced [mo.e]) is a Japanese slang word; in greater China[citation needed], it is also a well known loanword. The word has come to be used to mean one particular kind of "adorable", one specific type of "cute", mainly as applied to fictional characters. Moe does not have one concrete definition, but rather has a variety of meanings. The term "moe" can be added onto the end of any personality trait or physical trait to create a new type of moe. According to the Japan Society and Patrick W. Galbraith it means - a rarefied, a euphoric response to fantasy characters or representations of them[1][2] – however, one of the most famous instances of moe has been in response to the drama version of a living person.[3] It is a pun derived from a Japanese word that literally means "budding," as with a plant that is about to flower, and thus it can also be used to mean "budding" as with a preadolescent girl.[4] Since this word is also a homonym for "burning" pronounced moe (燃え?), there is also speculation that the word stems from the burning passion felt for the characters.[5]
From the horsemouth itself, no.

Moe is entirely subjective, and often contradictory.

At best it can be summarized as a positive reaction to something.

[Anonymous No.]

>Japan Times

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846273
Basically escapism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846276
To be fair, I think you get confused by my wording, it means moe means more just "idealization of cute grill", not that moe cannot be "idealization of cute grill".

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846277
So we are basically discussing about something that is entirely subjective? Guess now it's safe to assume this thread isn't going anywhere and we may sage it now...

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846282
i.e. entertainment

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846284
But you betray yourself. You say moe isn't objective, but then immediately deny one persons definition of it as "horseshit."

I'm not confused by anything. You are actually just this stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846290
This thread isn't going anywhere in the first place considering the very first post got moe wrong, or at least try to limit moe to one rule and discard all other alternatives.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846290
>subjective

[Anonymous No.]

I swear I can't take seriously any wannabe "expert" whose only two slang (really pushing the definition here) words of Japanese in their vocabulary are "moe" and "kawaii" and they try to stretch what little knowledge they hold to cover every aspect of society. "Moe" in particular is some shit I never fucking hear if not from the most obnoxious aniotas, why the hell is everyone abusing it like it's a term shared by the entire community?

>>12846010
Sadly this, having a decent knowledge of Japanese to navigate their communities and media is an efficient way to realize just how many asspulls and writer's flights of fancy are presented as "facts" to dumb Westerners. That Japantimes article is another proof of that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846296
Uh, yeah, I would deny him to hell and back considering he said "I was sticking to the Cute/Innocent/Young/Quirky rule" in>>12846178

It's fine if that's he finds that guy finds those traits moe, but the guy basically thinks that moe boils down to that for all people, which is wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846294
>>12846297
And this is also another evidence my "taking moe too far from "lol it's cute" is wrong" was right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846305
Turns out you were right here, guess I at least know what moe is in my opinion...

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846306
How is it right?

Even cuteness is subjective.

You basically use your own definition to judge people, then try to backpedal when that definition isn't right/is limiting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846305
>but the guy basically thinks that moe boils down to that for all people, which is wrong.

I do not recall seeing a single place in the entire argument where he said moe has one and only one strict definition for absolutely everyone.

You'll have to point it out for me, as I'm not going to reread that broken English exchange again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846322
Uh, he said it here>>12846305
>"I was sticking to the Cute/Innocent/Young/Quirky rule"
He applies that one rule for the OP and pretty much everything he posts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846315
Because taking moe as something more than entertainment or escapism is wrong, that's what I was trying to say.

Just saying, are you sure you aren't replying the wrong guy? Or you thought I wrote things someone else did wrote?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846277
>Since this word is also a homonym for "burning" pronounced moe (燃え?), there is also speculation that the word stems from the burning passion felt for the characters.

Literally never heard of this shit outside of English media, the two words aren't even pronounced the same and it's always written 萌え on text. Wikipedia is a confirmed shithole.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846328
>"I was sticking to the Cute/Innocent/Young/Quirky rule"

What's your point? He is sticking to a common definition of moe to argue about it.

That does not prove in any way, shape, or form that he is implying that that is what it means to absolutely everyone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846333
No, I think I'm taking to the right guy, considering you are the dude who thinks moe means "perfectly cute and innocent character" and "obsession with things that don't exist is wrong".

I have said 2 things to disprove/cast doubt in that:
1. Moe isn't limited to that, it can mean a lot more other things.
2. People obsess with pursuit of happiness, which only exists in their mind, the same thing as moe, but this is not "wrong" in any sense of the word.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846337
Uh, but that's not the common definition of moe?

My point is that he cannot use that definition, then use it to judge people with it, especially with "moe doesn't exist".

What if people find trains moe, and trains fucking exist, does that mean obsession with trains is wrong?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846335
It is a shithole.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846339
>1. Moe isn't limited to that, it can mean a lot more other things.
Yup, I already know that by now, so there is no more room to argue about what moe actually means, since is that subjective, but I think the common point is still related to idealization

>2. People obsess with pursuit of happiness, which only exists in their mind, the same thing as moe, but this is not "wrong" in any sense of the word.

Idealization isn't wrong by itself, but it doesn't exist in RL

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846344
>Uh, but that's not the common definition of moe?
Sure it is. That's why he was using it.

>My point is that he cannot use that definition, then use it to judge people with it, especially with "moe doesn't exist".

Yes he can. We've already established that feelings can't be wrong, and if he feels that is what moe is, he can judge people based on that. That's not, and can not be wrong unless moe has an objective definition.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846356
Bu as said, moe doesn't mean idealization.

Idealization of a character doesn't necessarily produce a moe feeling.

This is why people find plenty of realistic things moe, such as trains or guns.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846335
IIRC it comes from a certain seiyuu's name or something like that. But 燃える and 萌える are definitively pronounced the same, despite having different meanings. And I've seen 萌える written once in a VN, and it was not the conventional meaning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846358
>Sure it is. That's why he was using it.
No, it isn't. The fact someone uses something doesn't mean it's common.
>Yes he can. We've already established that feelings can't be wrong, and if he feels that is what moe is, he can judge people based on that. That's not, and can not be wrong unless moe has an objective definition.
Feelings can't be wrong, but judgment can be wrong.

To judge someone, something with emotions and feelings instead of facts, that means inaccurate judgement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846359
The fact is, moe can relate to very different things sometimes, so there is no real thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846371
I'm fine with that.

But by sticking moe with JUST idealization, I'm not fine with, because it means the range of moe is reduced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846377
Then should we stick moe with "everything I like" ?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846364
>The fact someone uses something doesn't mean it's common.
However, the fact that enough people use it like that does mean it's common. Which is exactly the type of moe he was using

>To judge someone, something with emotions and feelings instead of facts, that means inaccurate judgement.

What's your fucking point? This isn't law, you stupid faggot. His judgement can be as inaccurate and personally biased as he wants it to be. That doesn't make it inherently wrong.

And you're contradicting yourself again, here >>12846359
Moe means idealization. You already admit as such, since you concede that it can mean idealization.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846378
Yes, essentially.

The same for otaku culture, it doesn't just mean anime/manga culture, it's more than that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846382
Then we are basically arguing about "muh taste/your taste" again, well shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846385
>japan times

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
I don't really know why you pick moe as an example of perversion of innocence and youth, the entire media idolises innocence and youth, even in the West. More than that, people in general strive to retain their youthfulness; why do you think women wear makeup? Moe is just one way of capturing that innocence and youthfulness, and it is certainly one of the less perverse ways when you compare it to the Western pop scene and children's media.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846380
>However, the fact that enough people use it like that does mean it's common. Which is exactly the type of moe he was using
This I concede, nowadays the majority just mean moe = cute.
>What's your fucking point?
My point is that OP is fucking wrong with this topic of "moe culture" and "Fetishization of Innocence", he equates moe = cuteness and innocence which is frankly not true, it's a common idea, but not true and limiting, because moe can mean a lot more things.
>His judgement can be as inaccurate and personally biased as he wants it to be. That doesn't make it inherently wrong.
If a judgement is inaccurate, it is wrong, or at least not right.

And no, I think I stick to the point idealization can produce moe feeling, but moe doesn't simply mean idealization, just like sharks are fish, but not all fish are sharks.

[Anonymous No.]

Since a "muh taste/your taste"(AKA "muh moe/your moe") isn't going anywhere, can we just stop arguing about something like that and enjoy our moe in the way we like?

No idea can be wrong nor right if there is no objective solution, and the only common point seems to be "moe is the things I like"

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846393
I have no doubt that this isn't a problem in the west. Pic related (beauty pageants are repugnant, by the way).

But just because the problem manifests itself in different ways doesn't mean it's not a problem that a lot of people are tuning out reality to escape and be creepily obsessive over moe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846385
I'm sorry your argument isn't working, friend.

At least not here on /jp/ when we stick to the true concept of moe instead of moe = cute.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846407
is that even a human?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846404
>This I concede, nowadays the majority just mean moe = cute.

Man, I'm fucking done. I'm done with arguing with you.

You are too stupid. This is no less than the 4th time you've contradicted yourself, in various ways, simply since I've started posting at you.

You are retarded. Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846407
That looks like a thirty-year-old midget. It's not cute in any way. It's simply repulsive. America is fucking sick.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846407
What moe are you talking about here?

Please refer directly to what you are talking about instead hiding behind word.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846420
It doesn't even matter. It's the escapism I object to, not the culture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846411
It doesn't change the fact that my true concept of moe is moe = cute, because that's what I like, so it's still about muh taste, but I'm not trying to force it though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846415
Well, whatever then. I don't think I have contradicted myself in my argument, but you are free to think otherwise.

My last word for your is that what the majority thinks might not be the truth, it's just argumentum ad populum.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846427
Following the "true concept of moe" then moe = what I like, but if what I like is cute/innocent, then my moe will still be that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846426

How is this form of entertainment different from going to the movies or a football game

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846426
Escapism is everywhere.

Telling that you one day will find happiness is escapist.

It's cool to object escapism, but without hope, without delusion or ambition, you will never try nor get anywhere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846437
>Telling that you one day will find happiness is escapist.
Of course it is, you don't simply go and "find happiness" randomly, it's something you should build day by day.
And the very first step is being open-minded to everything, otherwise it will be just a matter of luck if you don't get depressed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846443
I don't think you should tell what people to think or what to do.

Let people work out their problems.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846435
It's not. The particulars don't matter, so much as to the degree. When any particular obsession disrupts a person's life such that they come to actively reject human relationships or the like, said life is a net negative to society.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846455
And fuck society.

Society doesn't amount to any man, an individual's only benefit is for himself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846451
Just a tip, sorry if I was trying to be helpful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846451
Well, fuck, we might as well all be nihilists and off ourselves if we're okay abiding by any behavior whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846463
Being a nihilist is a choice.

If he wants to be a nihilist, let him.

I'm a be all you want to be etc, loser or winner, as long as you are fine with it.

By trying to force your thoughts on your fellow men, you are restricting his own freedom to think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846455
does the moe obsessed person not pay tax or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846451
Tell him to let people work out their problems is limiting him the possibility of helping people. You are not letting him freely express his wish to help them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846490
Well, he can freely express his ass instead, in return for his wish that I don't care for.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846499
You can say that if you don't really need help, but don't you think you are disrespecting people who needs it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846506
And you don't think you might disrepect people because you assume they need your help?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846521
Why I should? If clearly say they don't need, then I won't inquire further.

Having a selfish wish, even if it's about wanting to help people it's a totally normal human feeling.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846539
No, it's the assumption that everyone is somehow facing problems that your help might fix it.

It's self-centered in a way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846544
I don't simply assume everyone need, but when I can give some advice that someone may find useful then I have no reason to stop myself.

And as a human, there is no shame in admitting it's also a selfish wish, aren't you human, maybe? Do you really think you have no selfish wish about others?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846563
I myself am selfish and I think I'm better than some people (and worse than some).

I just don't care enough about people to help them, I have my own problems to fix.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846566
I don't have my own problems to fix right now nor I can since I'm suffering from seasonal influence, but I see your point and I am not going to condemn you for it

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
I believe you are overthinking this. People are attracted to cuteness and there is nothing cuter than cute girls doing cute things. No matter who you are, looking ay cute things always leaves you with a warm feeling inside, see how normalfags love pictures of cute cats. Girls are young because younger girls are cuter than older woman. I fear it really is as simple as that.

Escapsim seems to be a good justification on surface but if that was the case wouldn't these people consume media where you can identify as the cool hero and go on a great adventure or play games where you save the world rather than look at mundane shit with moeblobs?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846667
The real question would be : Why do all those men needs the moe Escapism?

I don't want to be the one firing the shot by telling that it's because modern women don't know how, or don't want, to act cute and feminine anymore. Japan excluded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
nice pseudo-intellectual douche post

it's not as deep as you think it is

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846704
Neither is your mom. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846697
I don't want women to act cute and feminine, I want women to be cute and feminine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846708
I agree. Thanks for fixing my statement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846697
>People are attracted to cuteness and there is nothing cuter than cute girls doing cute things.
>Girls are young because younger girls are cuter than older woman.
Reading comprehension issues?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846719
>Why do all those men needs the moe Escapism?
Right back at you.

[Anonymous No.]

kusothread

[Anonymous No.]

>197 replies and 16 images omitted. Click here to view.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846755
They don't need moe escapism. The point is you are overthinking it. People simply like cute things because looking at cute things leaves you with a warm feeling inside.

[Anonymous No.]

Moe escapism is a moronic, non-existing concept and everyone in this thread need to be shot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
You forgot the /jp/ version of that picture

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846443
>you don't simply go and "find happiness" randomly
This is far too often precisely the case. Why am I or anyone else responding to you? You're an infant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846882
Wow, Yukari is wise

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846882
That's a big breast.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12847001
Hypersexualization of females and objectification politics in action. The oppression doesn't end until you do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
If you want a girl-friend or generally a girl near you, a girl to adore, to idolize or whatnot, you'd prefer that girl to be innocent instead of a fucking slut. Imagine having a girl-friend, you wouldn't want her to sleep with every guy, you'd want innocent girls and, in today's society, this era of "easy sex" and one-night stands, something like that is rare, especially at older ages. So, if you want an answer, and that's the best I can guess, it's because we want something we don't have and we're presented with it. Also, nice dubs.

[Anonymous No.]

What the hell is this /a/ shit?


>good thing for the community to look at itself in a different light
This boards has 1500 posts a day, there's no community. Again, you posted this on the wrong board.

go complain about other's people life there

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
That's just the general perception of an ideal teenage love life though. Most people I know who went through teenage relationships regret them and were left even more emotionally dissatisfied than before. I can't think of a single person from my high school who is still together with anyone they were dating at that time.

[Anonymous No.]

Well that was a waste of time. This thread is a perfect demonstration why nobody ever uses the word "moe" anymore. And we're doing just fine without it, so I guess we never really needed it anyway.

>>12846151
Let me guess, your introduction to the concept of moe was "Database Animals".

It's good for what it is, but a slang lexicon it is not. When it speaks of moe in terms of memes and narratives it's not because the concept is defined by them, it's because the whole book, from start to finish, is about memes and narratives.

>>12846290
You mean you didn't sage from the start? You're going to have your /jp/ card revoked.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12847625
>your introduction to the concept of moe was "Database Animals"
No. In fact, I haven't read a single "otaku" themed publication that purports to treat the subject in a rigorous manner. My assessment was based on what I've gleaned from continental/analytic philosophy, semiotics and anthropology. I'm just some guy who participates, to an extremely limited extent, in the smug anime girl shitfest that spills over to 4chan.

>not because the concept is defined by them
They can be treated, usefully for the purposes of analysis, as memes. They exhibit all of the properties of memes in their transmission, proliferation and evolutionary mechanisms. This random idiot probably thought along similar lines and tried to add a shred of academic credibility to his book by structuring its contents around anthropological frameworks.

The concept of moe didn't originate as "otaku media memes", but its behavior conforms to the theories developed in unrelated academic fields. They're just deeply appealing, fertile ideas that happen to be explored in the medium of children's cartoons, porn and other assorted filth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12848496
I cannot believe I made a mistake of replying to you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843954
/a/ would hate even harder.
/lit/ is just fucking wrong retard.

[Anonymous No.]

It's really a wonder that this goofy fuck managed to bait over 200 replies with a basic "you guys are creepy and morally wrong" troll.

Toss in some shit about "misogyny" and "not being able to get real women" next time. That's always funny.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>The obsession grown men have idolizing young, high school- (or even middle school-) aged girls is odd, to say the least

Why do people believe this? Youth as the definition of health and beauty is something you find millions of literature pieces. Centuries long girls, in the age of 14 and upwards, were chosen for arranged marriage. Just take a look into older literature. The admiration of young woman is common concept, hell just ask your male friends and tell them to be honest: The majority of men would fuck a 16 year old girl if it wouldn't be for the legal consequences. This is why its just dumb to systemize this in terms like hebephilia or ephebophilia and declaring this as psychatic disorders.

[Anonymous No.]

>japantimes

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845944
Fuck off, determinist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12850944
I'm that dude and I have no idea what is a determinist.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843968
As a moe loving manchild, I can confirm this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845944
Pain is just chemicals in your brain but if I hit you in the balls with a baseball bat it'll still hurt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845073
heh

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
This thread is better suited for /a/.

[Anonymous No.]

pedophilia != hebephilia != ephebophilia

[Anonymous No.]

>>12850973
It means that the universe is determined, and that there is no free will/random chance/etc. Everything is determined by cause and effect in an unavoidably mechanical way, including human action.

He misused the term, of course. He should have said you were a physicalist or something, since your comment about the chemical processes of the brain implies you don't think the mind is some external force.

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Comman(...) !rSDMROXTB. No.]

Some great opinions ITT, jaypers can be quite philosophical when they want.

>cute girls doing cute things because I need some distraction from a world full of death, pain and sorrow

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023

>that picture

Oh god, somehow I could tell right away that it was Schopenhauer. What a man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12853173
I sincerely hope you never actually read any of these kinds of threads when they show up. At least the pedo threads had SOME people who knew what they were talking about.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843968
My question is, what did these type of people do in the past?

I mean, I know that they would have been more likely to have been forced into society, and also more likely to die if they did not, but what did those who never mentally matured (beyond what was required to survive) do with themselves?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12853691
Lived and died with no one but family knowing they existed in the first place. Not enough room in the history books for everyone.
RIP proto-NEETs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844053
You faggot, I just had one of those in my room.
I didn't kill it thought but I took it out with toilet paper.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12853173
/jp/ is really bad when it's being philosophical.

>>12853691
They became homeless and died.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12853691
They probably stayed back at the farm with their mother. That may be one thing that wasn't so big deal back then. Some modern countries still remain where several generations of families stay under same roof, there is certainly use for working hands.

[Anonymous No.]

>Is there a reason moe romanticizes innocence and youth?
That's the basis of the moe emotion. It stems from propriety and youthful innocence and it's not new. I would say it's rooted in a basic desire to protect that which is precious. Youth is fetishized because that's what typically elicits moe. It becomes a supplement for interpersonal relations by providing emotional connections without the baggage of a real relationship.

>And do people exhibit these behaviors as a result of moe culture, or does moe attract people with the behaviors?
Both. Moe is the exaggeration of already existing predispositions. Before it was bishoujo and lolicon. I would say "moe culture" arose due to a need to satisfy a need to be loved and wanted within a medium filled with desirable, attractive, and appealing characters. Otaku are historically outcasts. Moe, bishoujo, lolicon, and other forms of otaku escapism in general are empowering to those who have been constantly rejected their whole lives.

>the generally creepy way age discrepancy plays a role in moe
Moe is only about age on a surface level. It's more an issue of power and dominance. In order to protect something, you must be stronger than it; moe characters, regardless of gender or archetype or whatever, are always weak or in need of guidance in one form or another. The viewer is the one to fill that gap, sexually, emotionally, etc. That creates the longing to "be with" the character that's common to moe.

This is of course, ignoring more recent involuted forms of moe that are primarily symbolic exercises. Otaku are now so familiar with moe signs and conventions that simply presenting them with something as much as shimapan will get them burning. Moe culture now is about the fetishization of moe culture's own symbols. If you trace them back, they're one's of youth, but they've become twisted over the years. Many if not most are now inextricably tied to sex.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846667
>People are attracted to cuteness and there is nothing cuter than cute girls doing cute things.
Moe is more than "cute girls doing cute things" and I hate that expression and its memetic regurgitation. A dog is cute, but isn't moe. A dog-girl can be cute and/or moe. There's a difference.

> if that was the case wouldn't these people consume media where you can identify as the cool hero and go on a great adventure or play games where you save the world rather than look at mundane shit with moeblobs?
That is literally what they do and what they did until moe culture popped up. You'll note that almost all otaku media contains bishoujo. Moe is an extension of bishoujo culture. Consider it another flavor of escapism in the end. Back then it was SF/fantasy with pretty girls, and now it's pretty girls with a touch of SF/fantasy. There's a lot of crossover and that should be glaringly obvious with the type of media out. This is probably because it's the same people creating and consuming it over the years. I mean, yeah, there are a lot more school-oriented things now, but the core has not changed at all since the 70s: bishoujo. Also consider how they keep tying it into SF and fantasy themes (Strike Witches is a good example), but I'm guessing you think "moe" means SoL comedy or something silly like that. It's better to look at it like an element of a work rather than just a genre. It's a very broad term.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
The japanese and their their nostalgic shit
I hate it

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
The japanese and their nostalgic shit
I hate it

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
The japanese and their nostalgic shit
I hate it

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855173
>>12855166
>>12855160
So, how many more times are you gonna post that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12846151
>Things that are perceived to be "moe" in any sense are memetic phenomena.
Only in more recent expressions of moe. Something I would call "formal" or maybe "symbolic" moe. I think it's an important distinction to make (old vs new moe in the end).

You're right in the sense of it being memetic. Repeated enough times, you will find almost any moe symbol "moe" provided it brings up the proper associations. People who "get it" and those who don't. But still, if you trace them back, they're usually tied to youth, sex, and especially a combination of the two. Moe must be rooted in human qualities because I find the emotion is related to human intimacy and closeness.

There have been a few attempts to break down the dynamic (Heisei Democracy comes to mind). Moe results from something like an innocent but sexually-able girl protecting her innocence. It's a very basic and old pattern that I remember seeing in something as old as GE999 and people have compared to the ingenue archetype in fiction. At any rate, it's limited to characters and the qualities of characters, whether it be personality traits/patterns or simple visual cues. Contrary to what people keep saying, everything cannot be moe. You would not feel moe looking at a rock; look at a rock-girl, and maybe.

It would be like thinking something is sexy. Yeah, a lot of what we consider sexy is constructed, definitely, and creation and repetition of sex symbols would generate sexual arousal once people picked up on it, but they're still rooted in a human element.

That's it for me. i hope that makes sense. i'm tired.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12854825
Especially when they're discussing philosophy on the whim of a blatant crossboard troll post. Even if it wasn't- what's the point of this shit?

"I'm gonna go out of my way to explain the media and history of moe culture to some normies that continually believe that Japanese media is exclusively reserved for child molesters! I sure don't want to be labeled as a bad person!"

At what point did /jp/ start giving so much of a rat's ass about what society thinks of them?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12850429
/jp/ was very nice and helpful lately, so I understand the confusion, but he's not being a kind soul pointing other people to a better place to discuss their interests. He's telling them to fuck off.

>>12850457
OP alone didn't do much, it's those retards going "I'll use moe to mean kawaii and you can't stop me" that pushed this thread past 200 replies.

>>12850944
Humanity's current understanding of physics suggests the material world isn't deterministic, so no, he's explicitly not a determinist.

>>12854091
Many really famous people fit the description.

>>12855100
Maybe if you took a step back and notice that the concepts of moe and sexuality are unrelated, you wouldn't be conflating them.

>>12855134
>Moe is more than "cute girls doing cute things" >A dog is cute, but isn't moe.
You're contradicting yourself. (The second statement is the incorrect one.)

>>12855209
>You would not feel moe looking at a rock
Perhaps he wouldn't, but some people certainly do. What do you say to them? That your armchair understanding of moe is better than theirs? Or maybe that their emotions are really just expressions of their sexual drives?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>I was reading an old article from Japan Times about moe culture, and I was hoping to generate some discussion about the creep
Stopped reading.

[Anonymous No.]

Anyone else really feeling the 4chan staff liberal agenda "conspiracy"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855698,1
uh yea thats why I go to 4+4chan so I can post shlobon

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855209
>Only in more recent expressions of moe
>It's a very basic and old pattern
I see this as a product of old media rather than an "essential" nature of moe. Admittedly, much of the older stuff is borderline porn-y with substantially less intertextuality and meta/self-referential content. This is an obvious departure from the state of the media and cultural consciousness of its current audience.

>"formal" or maybe "symbolic" moe
The natural evolution of anything that, by repetition or salience, becomes engrained in the consciousness of its audience. When moe becomes more abstract in its expression and understanding, it is no longer bound to an immediate physical referent (ie, a cute prepubescent girl). Moe sensations can be signified through objects, contextual information or through any combination of layers of abstraction. People can be conditioned to connect objects and concepts with moe sensations simply because of the media's postmodern tendencies and the associative properties fundamental to this form of communication.

While it may have originated with cute grils it has mutated into something that no longer requires them. It was inevitable for moe to sprawl into a grotesque chimera of self-reference, satirization and recursion - this is why rocks can be moe as fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

Despite whichever board you're currently on you /a/utists just can't resist defending your k-onbros back home yeah?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
I couldn't have said it better. Thanks, anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845073
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

[Anonymous No.]

Where's the irony...

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856038,1
right here *unzips quip*

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855447
>the concepts of moe and sexuality are unrelated
Moe appeal and sex appeal are obviously two different concepts, but that doesn't mean moe is unrelated to sexuality. In fact, they're inextricably tied. This is clear from its history and its current forms. There's a reason why moe heroines are the age that they are at--they are potentially sexual, but still proprietous.

>You're contradicting yourself.
You have got to be kidding me. Step your game up.

>but some people certainly do
No, they don't, broader usage of "X-moe" notwithstanding. The emotion associated with moe characters is distinctly tied to, well, moe characters. The characters themselves are just assortments of moe elements which themselves are tied to older narrative patterns. There's a reason why "moe anime" isn't about rocks, at least, not without some sort of moe gimmickry which is, again, tied to moe signs which are tied to bishoujo, etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855897
>"essential" nature of moe
See, I would argue otherwise. Similar to how we respond emotionally to other things like drama or comedy, i think there are basic patterns that elicit these emotions. Yes, moe is about as abstract as you can get now and it's incredibly intertextual and self-referential, but we can always trace it back to these core narrative patterns either explicit or implied, like how twintails often imply tsundere which implies a basic moe-pattern. Nowadays, you can look at twintails and a scowl and know exactly what that character is like, but that's only through repetition. I would argue that people who don't get the implied narratives DO NOT feel moe toward a moe image; just like a person who doesn't get the set-up of a joke wouldn't find the joke funny, at least, not formally. I think moe is still fundamentally a quality of narrative and characters, at least "classic (?) moe" is.

>Moe sensations can be signified through objects, contextual information or through any combination of layers of abstraction
This happened very, very quickly. I completely agree to the fact of moe sign permutation and involution, but i wouldn't ignore the history of the signs. Everything ties back to something involving bishoujo games and, usually (though not always), sex. Eroge alone was fundamental in helping create moe culture and what people call the "database."

>While it may have originated with cute grils it has mutated into something that no longer requires them
I guess this is the heart of the argument. I agree that we no longer need cute girls, but that we simply need to refer to them or allude to them, or rather, their qualities (it's not really "girls" but more a notion of abstract feminine weakness; this is how boys are moe). I don't think there's moe without this moe history. Even in its most abstract forms, you still need to be familiar with otaku signs to "get it" (i.e. feel moe). The ghost of the bishoujo is ever-present.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856614
>Everything ties back to something involving bishoujo games
That should be something like "bishoujo, games, etc. (otaku media)"

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855447
>>You would not feel moe looking at a rock
>Perhaps he wouldn't, but some people certainly do.

>>12855897
>While it may have originated with cute grils it has mutated into something that no longer requires them. It was inevitable for moe to sprawl into a grotesque chimera of self-reference, satirization and recursion - this is why rocks can be moe as fuck.

A person can feel sexually aroused when looking at a rock as well. But, I dare say very few people actually find rocks arousing in an of themselves. More likely, a person needs to be conditioned to associate rocks with something sexual ahead of time. So, while looking at a rock may give you a boner, it's a bit of a stretch to say rocks are then "sexually attractive" in any sort of general sense. It is the same for moe or any other subjective feeling.

>>12855447
>That your armchair understanding of moe is better than theirs?
I would not need to go to that level, because the issue at hand is the definition of a word. If a word becomes so broad that it can be applied to literally anything, it loses all meaning. If moe is to have any use at all, it cannot apply to dogs, rocks, or forks. Don't let the inherent mushiness in the definition of the word let you slide into pure subjectivity.

(Note that I'm not the person you are responding to.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855212
The "moe isn't just cute" guy here, I don't give a rat's ass about what people think of me, but when people stop considering all other kinds of moe and solidify it as a predictable pattern as OP like to associate with, it's gonna lose its original meaning and adopt the narrative that OP wants to.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm moe

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856682
For example, this train of thought right here:
>>If a word becomes so broad that it can be applied to literally anything, it loses all meaning. If moe is to have any use at all, it cannot apply to dogs, rocks, or forks
The original meaning of moe is more of reaction to character/object/things, so a rock/fork/dog can be moe if they make people feel moe and but OP and his similar-minds would try their hardest to suppress this and just discard it and jump straight to "moe characters", and now they even go to announce that certain things CANNOT be moe if moe is to make sense.

This is just like otaku culture it general, it means nerd culture, but people anime/manga is associated with it and the majority knows it for that, people force it to "otaku culture" means "anime/manga culture" when it's more than that.

I find these forces sickening because they want to deliberately limit the meanings of words so they can have their points.

[Anonymous No.]

>Creepy? Perhaps. It may be reassuring to those who feel that moe “love” is simply pedophilia — a word that doesn’t appear once in Galbraith’s book — but it is hard not to feel revulsion over some of the illustrations in the book, particularly those by artist Pop
Woooooooo. I am mad. And this is why I don't trust mainstream outlets to properly discuss non-mainstream/subcultural phenomena, or, anything really. The irony of asking for more distance in a book when you're writing self-congratulatory, biased garbage like that really can't be found anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.]

How this thread is staying up is beyond me. If I wasn't 100% certain that it would be deleted if it had put a different spin on the topic I would be glad. It would be nice if we could actually talk about things again, but people stepping in and being nosy about things not made for them is gross and it's just profoundly sad that of all the things our janitors side with this is it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856730
>This is just like otaku culture it general, it means nerd culture, but anime/manga is associated with it and the majority knows it for that, people force it "otaku culture" to mean "anime/manga culture" when it's more than that
Sorry for dem typos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856730
>moe is more of reaction to character/object/things
Where are you even getting this. Moe has always been applied to characters as a quality of and a reaction to certain types of characters. Moe toward a "thing" or element (e.g. glasses) only exists out of association with characters. Glasses, in and of themselves, are not moe; glasses, when tied to glasses-girls, are moe. The glasses-girl is the object of moe here, not the glasses per se. This is most likely due to the implications of the glasses (quiet, bookish, reserved, etc.). "Things" are moe now because of their repetition in moe narratives. It helps to understand what generates the moe emotion and what constitutes the moe image. I will recommend Heisei Democracy's discussion on the matter; it's old, but it's very informative.

>people force it to "otaku culture" means "anime/manga culture" when it's more than that.
Those, along with games, are the most popular forms of media within otaku culture. There are plenty of otaku "types," but beyond their propensity for consumer tech and SF, otaku are mostly about anime, manga, and games. To deny this is to willingly ignore what otaku was and what it currently looks like. It's more like you can't talk about "otaku culture" without talking about anime/manga culture, because on some level, they are inherently intertwined--otaku culture arose from that environment. Not all anime/manga is otaku, obviously, but there's no denying that otaku like those things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856762
I get this because moe can be gotten from things that aren't tied to any character such as gun moe, or train moe or even plane moe as seen in people appreciating fighter jets.

And no, while a large part of otaku culture is anime/manga/game, it's not inherent "anime/manga culture", people can be otaku without being interested in the consumption of anime/manga in general.

A train otaku might talk about anime with train or stuff, but what he does primarily is looking at train, not anime, the anime just serves as a medium for him to look at train, just like real life. See the train otaku in /jp/ for reference.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856796
>moe can be gotten from things that aren't tied to any character such as gun moe, or train moe or even plane moe as seen in people appreciating fighter jets.
That's a different usage of the term, which is something like "enthusiasm" towards something, which broadens an already broad term. I'm pretty sure we all get that. For this discussion, however, we're using "moe" in the sense that it relates to media and characters. Different connotation and such. This is also what people usually mean when they say "moe" or talk about "moe culture." You're splitting hairs and doing a poor job of it.

>people can be otaku without being interested in the consumption of anime/manga in general.
The exception does not make the rule. Again, you're splitting hairs to bring up something rather inconsequential. Yes, you can use "otaku" to describe an enthusiasm or obsession with something, but if you're going to ignore how fundamental anime/manga/games were and are to otaku culture, this argument is going to go nowhere. It would be denying the history of it, both mainstream and folk.

>it's not inherent "anime/manga culture"
Yes it is. You don't understand that the meaning of "otaku" is now inevitably tied to anime/manga/games whether you like that or not. In the public awareness and even to otaku, these spheres are interconnected. They don't call Okada "Otaking" for nothing; anime/manga/game production and consumption is otaku. Your claim is tied to older usages of the term which is more akin to "mania," but EVEN THEN, when it first popped up, it had connotations to subcultures like anime/manga.

In the end, words change, anon. And the people ultimately responsible for making "otaku" about anime/manga/games are /otaku themselves/, not some villainous group of people trying to dissolve your otaku narrative.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856867
You might as well say pedophilia instead of moe here, instead of beating around the bush, that's what you want it to mean since you ignore the broader, .original meaning, I'm not much splitting hair as much as I want people to say the thing they want to say instead of masking it behind word like "moe".

Of course the argument is going nowhere in the first you place, you want moe to be some specific things, you or OP want moe to be "bad", to be "negative" in this thread, you want it to mean cute/innocent/pedophilia love, and anytime me or any other guys try to say, no, it's not only that, it's NOT just that, you have tried to suppress that kind of thought and want to go back to your narrative.
>Your claim is tied to older usages of the term which is more akin to "mania," but EVEN THEN, when it first popped up, it had connotations to subcultures like anime/manga.
As well as other subculture such as punk rock, guns, trains and etc cetera. Anime becoming the popular image of otaku still does not people from becoming other types of history.

>And the people ultimately responsible for making "otaku" about anime/manga/games are /otaku themselves/, not some villainous group of people trying to dissolve your otaku narrative.
Oh fuck you, I'm a weapon otaku, and proudly so. Plenty of types of otaku exist, if you consider that anime/manga otaku is the only form of otaku, that's your problem not mine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856902
>Anime becoming the popular image of otaku still does not people from becoming other types of history.
Jesus, I mean anime becoming the popular image of otaku still does not mean otaku means that exact subculture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856574
>Moe appeal and sex appeal are obviously two different concepts, but that doesn't mean moe is unrelated to sexuality.
Actually, yes, it means exactly that.

>No, they don't, broader usage of "X-moe" notwithstanding.
"No, they don't, ignore it when they do."

>The emotion associated with moe characters is distinctly tied to, well, moe characters.
And the emotion associated with moe rocks is distinctly tied to moe rocks, so this gets us nowhere. (Or perhaps you're just begging the question.)

>The characters themselves are just assortments of moe elements
No, characters are characters, imitations of people created for fictional works. Some of them can be just an assortment of cliches, either for simplicity or due to author's poor skills. Some people can nevertheless find those cliches appealing. And that's fine, in isolation. What's not fine is your attempts to generalize the contents of the barrel by scrapping its absolute bottom.

>There's a reason why "moe anime" isn't about rocks
And it's because anime in general is about people, not rocks.

>>12856639
>A person can feel sexually aroused when looking at a rock as well. (...) It is the same for moe or any other subjective feeling.
Only it's not the same. It's explicitly only true for sexual arousal. When I, say, feel awe looking at some particularly monumental rock, I am not doing it because it evokes something else. The rock is just awesome in itself.

>If a word becomes so broad that it can be applied to literally anything, it loses all meaning.
You can apply "love" and "hate" to literally anything, did they lose their meaning already?

> If moe is to have any use at all
...it cannot be synonymous with cuteness or sexual appeal or anything else that already has a perfectly fine term to describe it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856867
>For this discussion, however, we're using "moe" in the sense that it relates to media and characters.
Only it's actually the exact same sense and you fail to realize it because you have a preconceived notion about the feelings people have for certain targets.

> the meaning of "otaku" is now inevitably tied to anime/manga/games
In your head, perhaps on your favorite anime forum, but certainly not in the real world.

[Anonymous No.]

>watch K-On as a teenage girl
>really enjoy it
>reminded me of all the silly stuff I got up to at school with my friends
>was nice to see girls just being friends rather than fighting
>mfw it's target audience was older men

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856614
>moe is about as abstract as you can get now
>we can always trace it back to these core narrative patterns
I believe it was fundamentally abstract and intermediary from the outset. To such an extent, I can't except the moe essentialist argument. Your position is defensible and well articulated, as well as being of great utility for documentational and theoretic purposes.

>Everything ties back to something involving bishoujo games
What do these games aim to represent? Do visual elements of these games signify, distort or influence existing conceptions? If the forms investigated in these works do not purport to represent anything material, how do interpreters ultimately comprehend them? It's easy to invoke an orthodox cultural relativist position at this point.

>I would argue that people who don't get the implied narratives DO NOT feel moe toward a moe image
Agreed. Does someone feel moe towards a more "essential" moe image if they don't posses the requisite cultural lens? Is moe comprehensible in an environment that fosters unrelatable social/gender identities?

>a notion of abstract feminine weakness
Many people have offered an interpretation of their personal relationship towards the moe sensation. Recurring elements of these outlines tend to include gender, social roles/symbols and a striking act that connects the two. If we treat moe as memetic, it can be assumed that the sensation appeals to some latent biological process that predisposes individuals to susceptibility under certain cultural conditions. I speculate that there are analogues to moe mental phenomena that have nothing to do with otaku media - these may be playing off similar physiological mechanisms.

The argument effectively relegates your bishoujo to a form of signifier itself. It resembles and inherently references nothing, yet it still produces a mental effect - why? Stimulation of that underlying neurological mechanism is contingent upon the cultural forces that shaped it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857288
>Does someone feel moe towards a more "essential" moe image if they don't posses the requisite cultural lens?
So, like, how many bishoujo games do I have to play before I can experience moe when I see a character?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856639
>a person needs to be conditioned to associate rocks with something sexual ahead of time
This notion can be easily extended to any current mass conception of "sexually attractive". Mass forms of cultural influence (ie, popular media) play an indispensable role in shaping many of these ideas, rather than any inherent properties of the material phenomena itself. The whole thing is an irrevocable chain of mental fabrications referencing mental fabrications. Material phenomena is pretty much permanently detached from any conception of aesthetic or qualitative property.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857278
>as a teenage girl
You're not a girl.
And if you're one you need to get the fuck out of /jp/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857397
I identify as a moe kawaii little girl!!

But I have a pee-pee so I think I can stay.

[Anonymous No.]

There is literally nothing wrong with being a pedophile. You can go back to SomethingAwful if you think otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

Is /jp/ moe?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857397
I come here for the bjd/doll threads

[Anonymous No.]

>>12858222
Depends. Do you have long hair to push away from your greasy face as you suck my dick?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12858305
No, but I have big black cock. Does that excite you?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12858346
Gross dude.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12855100
>Otaku are now so familiar with moe signs and conventions that simply presenting them with something as much as shimapan will get them burning.
Shimapan is boring. Print panties are best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>Fetishization of Innocence
are you sure?

[Anonymous No.]

I read then OP then I literallly scrolled all the way to the bottom without reading the rest af the replies. I just wanna say that I'm not sexually attracted to little girls. Usually when I play a 2hu game or watch an anime I want to be one of the little girls. But really I wouldn't want to be one of them; I like who I am. It's just a afun fantasy you know

[Anonymous No.]

>>12859023
Have you tempered a bold new form of funposting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857278
Please leave.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
Believe me, you missed nothing worthwhile.

The portrayal of the rose-colored school life that anime has it's very far from everything people experience, save for very rare cases.

grass is always greener, etc.

The only thing I would say someone ugly or unpopular would have missed out is the ture friendships you form at an early age. The sooner the bond is made the stronger. I will not blog about it, but it's the only thing that will ever matter: friends you made early, these bonds will last forever and it's just like anime tries to represent it. Maybe stronger in some cases.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856902
>anytime me or any other guys try to say, no, it's not only that, it's NOT just that, you have tried to suppress that kind of thought and want to go back to your narrative.
"I don't know how words work!" Open your fucking eyes for a second and take a look at everything associated with "moe."

>You might as well say pedophilia instead of moe here, instead of beating around the bush, that's what you want it to mean since you ignore the broader
No, I shouldn't, because it isn't what I mean. To even suggest that is irritating and I'm just going to stop arguing with you here. Why don't you get off your little persecution complex and understand that "moe culture" doesn't ever fucking refer to gun nuts? "Moe anthropomorphization" does not refer to turning shit into guns or whatever the fuck you want it to; it means turning whatever the fuck you want it to into fucking girls. I say this /as a moe fan/. This means respecting its various usages, and one obvious one is that dumb shit people keep calling "cute girls doing cute things." It's fucking more than that, but what's irritating is that you won't even admit that it's on that level. You want it to be "nice" and "not bad" (i.e. applicable to everything). It would mean nothing at that point. Deal with it and pick a better fucking word if it really bothers you. To deny that very obvious currents in otaku and, specifically, what people call "moe culture" is plain, outright ignorance. Stop putting words in my mouth and fuck right off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857016
Provide a better definition or fuck off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857181
>In your head, perhaps on your favorite anime forum, but certainly not in the real world.
Fucking lol.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12857288
>I believe it was fundamentally abstract and intermediary from the outset.
Probably. Moe is all about gaps. I just think that before we had "moe" we had things like bishoujo that would trigger when executed certain ways. I still think moe is tied to some kind of basic instinct, but it has always been an abstract appeal when broken down.

>What do these games aim to represent?
That's a pretty good question. Most otaku narratives are quite "local" and distinctly Japanese. But the appeal of moe overseas (look at the huge western moe fanbase) would support an "essential" character of it, as in it is appeal across culture. Shrugs.

>Is moe comprehensible in an environment that fosters unrelatable social/gender identities?
Good question. Issues of gender/culture don't play as much as the more simple issues of power/dominance. Those sorts of things are universal I would say, but the way they're understood and expressed are dependent on culture. In the end, I don't know. Is there a reason a dynamic as "unbalanced" as moe arose from a more rigid, patriarchal society like Japan? A lot of people call it "conservative" it its implications (weak female and such), but I think that's oversimplifying things.

>relegates your bishoujo to a form of signifier itself. It resembles and inherently references nothing, yet it still produces a mental effect - why?
Because I don't think it resembles and references "nothing." It would be the "ideal" of the female (I guess you could call that "nothing"...). But as you said those would be tied to culturally constructed signs of what "ideal" and "female" would be. The more I chew it over, the less moe essentialism seems to work; I admitted that much with concessions to the contemporary environment. I could try to stretch "essential" moe a little further, but it would likely converge with pity, sympathy, and love and still tied to culture and such.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12860404
>"I don't know how words work!"
Says a person who thinks /a/ is a representative linguistic corpus.

>take a look at everything associated with "moe."
You even already conceded it's much more than girls, for fucks sake.

>it isn't what I mean
He's kinda right, though. That's a logical consequence of what you're saying. Open your eyes for a second and take a look at everything you associate with "moe".

>"Moe anthropomorphization" does not refer to turning shit into guns
Well of fucking course, guess what "antropomorphisation" means. If moe already implied antropomorphism, there'd be no need to even add "antropomorphisation" to the term. (By the way, I keep forgetting to point this out explicitly, because it should frankly be fucking obvious, but of course it doesn't need to be girls. Ever heard of Hetalia Axis Powers? You know, the sole most prominent example of the trend before the advent of Kancolle?)

>This means respecting its various usages
So when will you start respecting 岩萌え?

>>12860410
I'll take this as a concession you can't take the gaping holes in your own definition head on.

I don't need to do this, of course. It's a difficult task, and all the evidence you're wrong will exist whether I'm capable of producing a definition or not. But if I were to attempt it, it'd talk about adoring something as a spectator, the warm fuzzy feeling you get merely from knowing something wonderful exists.

Does that make sense? Perhaps not. It's a cliche, but you won't understand moe until you've felt it. Which is perhaps why so many people confuse it with sexual arousal, the only feeling they ever experience.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
>Let's face it: a large portion of the otaku community consists of men

Just as large or slightly larger part consists of females.

Look at any con.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12860931
>You even already conceded it's much more than girls
Moe pretty clearly has been used to refer primarily to girls and character traits of girls (and the feeling of attraction/appreciation associated with such characters and traits). It has been expanded to include boys, and that's a fair expansion of its use IMO, but that is the history of the word. It implies young, innocent, cute, feminine things regardless.

>So when will you start respecting 岩萌え?
I'd just like to point out that you're arguing with a person who told you to find a different word if you can't accept the limited definition of "moe" as it stands. Here you are asking him his opinion on a variant word. Think about that.

>I'll take this as a concession you can't take the gaping holes in your own definition head on.
I wouldn't be talking about the concessions of others a sentence before whining about how difficult it is to come up with a definition of your own. You need to put up or shut up, as it were.

That said, your definition is horrible, a "warm fuzzy feeling you get merely from knowing something wonderful exists?" Your definition is way too vague, and sounds more like what someone would offer as a definition of "happiness" or "love" rather than the distinctly otaku culture term that moe is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12845989
So that chemical in our brains that makes us happy doesn't exist? This is news to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12861475
That statement is unsatisfactory, it is more complicated. The chemical may be the catalyst or play some other part, but it is not the happiness itself.

It was similar with the oxytocin party, and then they figured there is a dark side to that "cuddle chemical" as well.

I don't think this whole discussion about whether something like happiness or love "exists" is meaningful without setting some boundaries and check we at least agree on some basic things first.

I'll just sage instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12847462
I'd have rather had those mistakes and regrets than absolutely nothing at all.

It's like saying you'd rather not exist to begin with since life is full of unpleasant stuff and nothing is eternal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843968
I handle real relationships better than 99.9% of people and I still like moe. Granted, I never played dating sims or stuff like that, but I still like moe pics and things like that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12853691
They were monks. I'm fairly sure the average /jp/sie would have fit perfectly in the medieval Church. After all, look at the lifestyle of monks back then:
- They spent their life isolated from common people.
- They shunned women and died as virgins (unless they fiddled kids).
- They were intellectual and literate, reading and translating classical works and spawning the first universities.
- They liked reading and discussing about the interpretations and canonicity of fictional books.

[Yotsuba ºC !!l6OfPrwFIk8 No.]

moe iz serius busness mkay

[Anonymous No.]

>>12862589,1
uhh what are you doing here you're supposed to be dead

[Anonymous No.]

does anyone have a copy of Shii's essay on moé?
I lost mine in a catastrophic data loss last year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
woah...

[C !!94LatQPZnCH No.]

Who is everyone's favorite K-On character?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12863934,2
whichever one will take a shit in your ugly mouth

[Anonymous No.]

>>12863934,2
The lego bird girl

[Anonymous No.]

>>12863934,2
le milenom girl

[C !!94LatQPZnCH No.]

>>12863934,4
I like this response ;)

[Anonymous No.]

>>12863934,2
guitar Saten

[Anonymous No.]

>>12861354
>Moe pretty clearly has been used to refer primarily to girls
Even if it was true, it wouldn't matter, because meaning and usage frequency are two completely different things. But it just isn't true.

>Here you are asking him his opinion on a variant word.
What are you talking about, nigga? I'm asking you to respect the use of moe as applied to rocks.

>You need to put up or shut up
I don't need to present a complete path of human evolution to show that your theory that a deity created a man from clay then a woman from his rib is bullshit.

>sounds more like what someone would offer as a definition of "happiness" or "love"
A feeling gets defined just like other feelings? Hold the presses.

>distinctly otaku culture
That's funny, because your way of defining the term only showed after it went mainstream. It's almost as if some outsiders went "let's not delve into that, it's just something those otaku do".

[Anonymous No.]

why the fuck is this thread still up
what the hell janny

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705,1
janny is asleep only nudity and trigger words are being deleted by the mods now

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705,2
that would make sense if this thread hadn't been up for 5 days now

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705,3
do you really think i give a fuck what you think

[Anonymous No.]

I love Keion

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705
At least sage man.

[Anonymous No.]

Is it bad I find mind-broken girls drowning in cum moe then?

[Anonymous No.]

Usually men who like innocent girls are beta, most girls want to be treated like sex meat by alpha.
I think purity is a beauty that is underrated.

[Anonymous No.]

Can something be cute, moe and erotic?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864782
Who gives a shit about most girls?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864757
I saged, mate. Blame >>12864750.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705,4
shut the fuck off queer

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864705,2
>>12864705,3
You ever read something a second time and laugh like a shit eating retard?

[Anonymous No.]

Moe Culture and the Fertilization of Innocence

[Anonymous No.]

>>12856731,1
I'm trying to understand this post.

You want to be able to talk about things like this on /jp/, but you don't want /jp/ to talk about it with you? You're not making sense.

[Anonymous No.]

A lot of these moe obessed folk were bullied and marginalized by those on the upper end of the social ladder (think cheerleaders and jocks who emphasize crassness, disrespect, and general/sexual indecency). "Moe" as it is typicaly known is a counter to that culture of oppression and a reversion to a simpler time in life, where only happiness abounds and evil intentions don't exist. A great example is K-on which depicts high-school girls who are all great and friendly (and not as backstabbing snakes obsessed with "hot boys")

To read further into the logic behind moe is to attempt to define the entire genre by a specific viewpoint which narrows the focus, making it no longer solely about moe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864803
I care about the 2D ones, does that count?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12864793
Can something be three different levels of subjective? Yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12865525
No.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12844023
>people interested in "moe" portrayals of characters feel a sense of regret and anguish that they didn't live out their "younger" years the way they wanted to live them out.
>I mean, many of us are unattractive in many ways: fat, ugly, mean-spirited, mentally ill, etc, and we never had the chance to experience teenage attraction and infatuation at that age, and now that we are too old to ever have a glimpse that part of life.


You're probably right on the surface, but it's nothing special as people keep exaggerating it. Those girls who guys seemingly want a "Bright and healthy" future switch attitudes when you reject them each time. It would be much better if people stopped being habitual liars and simply told the truth. then they can save an entire generation from becoming betas.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
You hit the nail right on the head.

Unfortunately many here will not be so.... Self aware.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12869903
But we probably are. Some just don't think it's an issue, even find it a source of motivation, or simply don't care.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12869965
If you don't think it's an issue, you're not self aware. same with not caring.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12870043
Digging yourself into a pit of apathy or unmotivation is a problem indeed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12843933
Honestly, I think most Americans who do it, even here on /jp/, are doing it ironically, as part of the circlejerk, or because they've heard of it in an incomplete way.

You don't see things like literal death threats against authors for portraying their waifu as someone who has an ex-boyfriend (and therefore is not pure) or having any resolution to a harem plot (whether it's the wrong girl wins, or the girl who wins [muh waifu] having implied sex with the protagonist) - this has had an actual negative effect on plot development of anime, and it all comes from Japanese otaku, not Ameican "otaku".

[Anonymous No.]

classic