Have you done your reps today?

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Anonymous Sun Jul 27 19:30:18 2014 No.12301875 [Reply] [Original]

Have you done your reps today?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 19:40:08 2014 No.12301892 Yes! But thank you for reminding me anyways!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 19:46:59 2014 No.12301905 >>12301875 Not yet, so lazy. But now I'll do it for sure!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 19:51:32 2014 No.12301914 >>12301875 I quit months ago Laziness is the death of me

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 19:54:03 2014 No.12301922 >>12301914 You can start it over again. Be strong /jp.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:00:55 2014 No.12301937 File: 19 KB, 779x561, Fuck.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How do I move on /jp/?

Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:02:40 2014 No.12301938

>>12301922
I dunno, I was super passionate about it for the first year I was studying and got some pretty good progress, enough to watch 'easy' shows without subs. But then I stopped watching anime and being a massive weeaooo, and never got much further after that. I reckon I could get back on it, but I have no inspiration.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:05:19 2014 No.12301944 I never got what people meant by "reps"

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:07:07 2014 No.12301946 >>12301875 Did them this morning. I quit for a few months and didn't do any reps at all. Then I got back to them this summer and am rolling along nicely, and am surprised how much I remembered from before so it was easier to get back to them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:08:11 2014 No.12301950 >>12301875 I haven't done them all week. But I'll do it tomorrow, I promise!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:10:03 2014 No.12301956 >>12301944 repetitions.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:11:36 2014 No.12301961 What deck do you guys use?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:16:49 2014 No.12301973 >>12301961 Core2K. It's the best for vocabulary. I've heard it's good to practice your own self-made deck as well. For words you find in books or games that might not be in normal decks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:28:42 2014 No.12302002 >>12301973 Is it a subset of Core10k? I'm early on in that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:37:02 2014 No.12302018 >>12301973 Can I really trust it? Even in the very beginning there's a sentence about drawing a circle and in the answers they use yen hiragana not maru. Should it be like that?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 20:41:22 2014 No.12302023 "Reps" are for the brain-dead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 21:08:52 2014 No.12302079 I just finished learning Hiragana and Katakana. Here's to finding the motivation to continue learning.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 27 22:37:16 2014 No.12302283 >>12301905 Yay I did some. Do it too you weak bugs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 00:33:08 2014 No.12302515 reminder to update anki. also do study sessions with filtered tags if the work is pretty overwhelming (not like most of the time is)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 07:01:24 2014 No.12303535 >>12302079 Same. What should I study now?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 07:54:29 2014 No.12303613 File: 345 KB, 683x2677, anki-stats-2014-07-28@13-52-55.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12301875 I am just getting started OP and currently doing those of today, am I doing good?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 08:09:23 2014 No.12303638 >>12302515 I'm still on 1.2.8 never gonna update.

Anonymous Mon Jul 28 08:31:42 2014 No.12303672
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>>12303535
Get the Core2K deck. It's really good for building vocab and also has sound. Always try to repeat the words to work on your pronunciation.
If you want to work on grammar, start reading Tae Kim and get the cloze deck. When reading doujinshi, try to analyze them for the grammar structures and use of particles that you've learned so far.
For Kanji, get the Heisig deck and the KanjiDamage deck. Try out both of them and see which one you like better. I'm currently at 1100 (reading/writing) after a year of KanjiDamage.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 08:39:49 2014 No.12303689 File: 14 KB, 919x401, バカ.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12302018 Yes. And good luck.

Anonymous Mon Jul 28 09:41:05 2014 No.12303811

I had my first ever verbal conversation in Japanese yesterday. Turns out that simply knowing how words are pronounced isn't enough, you also need to have practiced pronouncing them.

Any tips on getting more pronunciation practice other than having really awkward, clumsy conversations with Japanese people? Maybe I should start reading the protagonist's lines out loud when playing eroge or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 09:56:57 2014 No.12303834 >>12303811 Just practice a lot, copy Japanese people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 10:08:13 2014 No.12303851 >>12303811 Karaoke, practice japanese tongue twisters, read out loud your stuff and trust your knowledge of pronunciation to correct yourself thanks to all your listening practice... the possibilities are endless.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 14:22:03 2014 No.12304385 File: 294 KB, 800x600, oi_nazrin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How are your decks set up in terms of number of new cards and reviews per day?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 14:38:35 2014 No.12304423 >>12304385 10 new 100 reviews

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 14:48:17 2014 No.12304441 >>12304385 60 new, 9999 reviews. YOLO

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 19:41:08 2014 No.12305162 >>12303672 Where can I download this Core2k deck? And how does Anki work? Sorry but I'm new to this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 28 19:49:35 2014 No.12305198 Yep, ever since morning with a few breaks in between, I'm nearly at a 1000 studied cards.

Anonymous Mon Jul 28 20:12:54 2014 No.12305250

I just finished my review for the day. I'm about 150 cards away from finishing Step 1 of Core2k.

I started Step 2 when I was half done with Step 1, and have about 500 cards left in that, so basically half done with Step 2 now.

I've been doing 20 new cards per day. I'm considering either upping the amount or going on to Step 3 and doing that concurrently now as well.

Anonymous Mon Jul 28 20:36:36 2014 No.12305312

I burned out in february with 1300 Heisig kanji and halfway through the N3 vocab list, and I haven't studied since then.
I recently picked it up again last week, and I'm actually surprised how much I remember.
I'm 500 kanji in while rushing through reviews, and I rarely ever get one wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 02:06:22 2014 No.12306151 File: 6 KB, 455x46, screenshot454.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Getting started for today.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 02:10:00 2014 No.12306166 I'll do it tomorrow

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 02:36:27 2014 No.12306206 >>12303672 How are you finding KD so far? A lot of people on DJT say that it's inaccurate and terrible.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 02:49:35 2014 No.12306230 >>12306206 DJT is beyond retarded very often but if there's something they're right, it's that KD is shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 03:27:40 2014 No.12306282 I finished my N2 vocab set today. At this rate I should be ready to take the N1 this November. I could probably pass it right now, actually, but I wouldn't get a very good score.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 03:28:58 2014 No.12306286 >>12306282 And by November, I mean December. Not sure how I managed that one.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 04:54:53 2014 No.12306385 >>12303613 >ever pressing the "again" button It's a bad habit and doesn't help. You need more than 10 minutes between tests for it to really be a test of whether you know it or not. If you don't know it, just note it down and click "hard".

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 05:26:01 2014 No.12306422

>>12306385
Well, the thing is: when I see them more often I tend to make the link with the other words I know already and that's how I get them.
>Oooooooh, my retarded self didn't notice that this reading is used in this and this word with the same kanji...
But I think you are right, I may change that to your method when I'll feel like reading a lot while continuing the deck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 06:21:41 2014 No.12306520 >>12306385 Again is good to kind of "reset" the timers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 12:03:09 2014 No.12307103 Isn't it better to consume actual media and do your reps when you're jsut bored or something?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 12:12:01 2014 No.12307122 >>12307103 Sure, but not everyone is advanced enough to consume media and have fun at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 12:16:45 2014 No.12307132 >>12307122 Most people here are able to at least read a story for children or fairy tales. You don't have to read books or seinen for starters.

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 12:50:03 2014 No.12307208
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>>12306206
Took N2 a while ago and didn't have any problem with the Kanji. I never used anything other than KD (tried Heisig before, didn't like it).
If you ever want to learn Japanese, stay away from DJT and such. Try out a few decks and stick with the ones you like. Never listen to people on the internet (such as >>12306230) who tell you your method of studying is stupid or inefficient. Most of them are just frustrated because the method "didn't work" for them, when the reason is actually just that they didn't put enough effort into studying. They spend their days watching anime with subs and playing translated games and think that somehow magically makes them japanese masters.
If you're not serious and ready to invest alot of time, no method or deck will work. If you are, the method or deck doesn't really matter all that much.
As for the accuracy of KD, there might be some small errors here and there, but nothing major. Like I said, I managed to pass N2 with it.
Don't get discouraged in the first few months, as a few 100s of kanji don't make a big difference in literacy. Just keep studying and eventually you'll get there, with Heisig, KD or whatever else.

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 13:29:24 2014 No.12307351

>>12307208
I once went to /djt/ and in that one visit got convinced to never touch Anki again. Now I'm not sure anymore.

I do feel that I'm not picking up on that much new vocabulary when just reading, but whenever I load up an anki deck I just get bombarded with completely irrelevant vocabulary and lose motivation in a few days.

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 13:44:35 2014 No.12307388

>>12307351
You'll have to find your motivation somewhere, without it it's impossible to learn a language.
For me, the motivation was being able to play (loli) eroge. I'm still not 100% there, but I can read most of the simpler ones without having to look stuff up.
Unfortunately, even with motivation it can sometimes be hard to do the reps every day. Studying just isn't supposed to feel good or fun. Sometimes you just have to force yourself, but if you do it'll be worth it in the end.

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 14:00:39 2014 No.12307426

>>12307388
My motivation is kinda tied to how much progress I'm making. Back when I was starting out, I was really motivated, since no matter what I did I was learning something. Now I never feel like I'm taking any major steps no matter what I try out.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 14:19:34 2014 No.12307479 I have like 300 due I forgot to do it one day, and then I forgot to do it the other day, and then I saw they all piled up and I just sort of gave up

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 14:23:42 2014 No.12307492 Fuck dakutens.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 14:25:01 2014 No.12307500 File: 218 KB, 1456x724, koohi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Only a bajillion more to go...

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 15:22:29 2014 No.12307679 [DELETED]

>>12307426
>tied to how much progress I'm making
>when I was starting out

Please don't take my motivation away. I'm exactly on that step and with that mindset. Anyway, do you perhaps have any hints to why you aren't feeling that way anymore? Can't you just skip to the 'relevant' vocabulary?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 15:22:35 2014 No.12307680 >>12307500 People really learn kanjis individually instead of learning words?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 16:15:57 2014 No.12307829 >>12307680 Yes. It makes the words a lot easier to remember.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 16:48:15 2014 No.12307889 >>12307829 I'd say it works both ways. They are complementary after all. It's true that even knowing one reading and one reading only of a kanji can be a major helper for vocabulary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 16:52:35 2014 No.12307901 >>12307889 One reading and one meaning* (brainfart sorry)

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 16:53:00 2014 No.12307903

>>12301875
I do it every day, since my japanese learning school has a daily homework system, and I'm always practicing kanji.

I think I've learned about 500 kanji or so until now. Watching a lot of japanese TV really helps, I enjoy variety shows and idol ones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 16:54:40 2014 No.12307909 >>12307426 How the fuck do you not feel like you're making progress. When I first started reading I felt like every VN made me as much better at japanese as the entire year previous to reading had.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 17:11:22 2014 No.12307963 >>12307426 Move on from moe/nuki/chara-ge, there are plenty of VN with a less forgiving vocabulary base, like those from âge.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 29 17:53:53 2014 No.12308083 >>12307909 I've started reading long ago. Back then it was very effective, but right now it feels like I'm in the exact same spot no matter how much I read. >>12307963 It feels even worse when there's a lot of words I don't understand.

Anonymous Tue Jul 29 18:23:46 2014 No.12308174

>>12308083
I've felt like this quite a bit lately. I go through stages of being really happy with my progress (Like when I'm able to get the gist of an easy news NHK article) and feeling like I'm back to square one (If I can't make vocab stick, I struggle with conversation, or I just can't work out how to read something that should be at my level.)

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 01:58:43 2014 No.12309348

>>12308083
>It feels even worse when there's a lot of words I don't understand
Did you expect to progress without flinching a finger? You'll have to lookup words in J-J dictionaries and branch from the definitions you don't understand to get new words and so on. It will make a lot of Anki cards in the beginning but at some point you'll notice that you have to delve less and less deep, and as a result you'll be a better reader.

Think going for the most difficult area around in some RPG and coming back so strong nothing can possibly stop you at this point (that is, until you get to an area with stronger foes).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 02:26:43 2014 No.12309376 >>12301875 No willingness.

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 03:18:13 2014 No.12309462
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>>12309348
>Think going for the most difficult area around in some RPG and coming back so strong nothing can possibly stop you at this point
But if you do that, you might end up dying and spend so much time reloading from old saves that it would be faster to grind in an area that's more suitable for your level.

I do like the idea of using a J-J dictionary, though. Now that I think about it, one of my problems might be that when I read eroge, I use a text hooker that copies text to my browser window so I can look up with rikaichan, and since it's so easy to look up with rikaichan, I become lazy. So when I encounter a new word or even just a word I've seen before but that would take a few seconds to recall, I just quickly hover it to see the English translation and then move on because I want to keep a good reading pace. Obviously I don't learn much from this, since I basically just mentally insert the English word into the sentence.

Fuck, it's so obvious now. I've stuck myself in a vicious cycle where I do everything half-assedly because I have no motivation, and have no motivation because I do everything half-assedly. Thanks for making me realize this.

Also, what J-J dictionary should I use? I would prefer to not have to go to a specific website whenever I want to look something up.

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 04:15:57 2014 No.12309542

>>12309462
Well I do go to a specific website each time and make my anki cards with the simplest exemple sentence and one for each definition. http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/

There are probably easier ways (e.g. some local dictionnary to plow through a click away) but I don't know them so I'd be happy to read about it if someone there uses one.

> But if you do that, you might end up dying and spend so much time reloading from old saves that it would be faster to grind in an area that's more suitable for your level
The only way to die of japanese is to forget your vital needs while learning or by stucking your dick inside a gaijin hunter without a condom.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 04:34:47 2014 No.12309563 >>12305312 >I'm 500 kanji in while rushing through reviews, and I rarely ever get one wrong. do you know what the actual words are though? what's the point of studying kanji without vocab?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 04:38:21 2014 No.12309566 >>12301875 Don't bother myself with it. I'm just parsing vns and have a grammar guide in another web-tab.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 06:02:57 2014 No.12309691 File: 111 KB, 800x1240, 1406085672957.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Could someone tell me where I can download this "Core2K"? There are a lot on the Anki's website and I am a bit confused.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 06:27:14 2014 No.12309711 >>12309691 go to the japanese deck list on anki (google 'anki decks') and download core2k part 1. It's separated into 10 parts and you have to download each part individually. I'd recommend finishing one part before moving on to the next. Good luck.

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 06:31:13 2014 No.12309715
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>>12309691
They're the "Japanese Core 2000 Step 01 Listening Sentence Vocab + Images" decks. Step 01 and 02 are quite easy, but the vocab gets harder from there. Goes up to 10. 頑張ってね、アノンくん！

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 07:20:46 2014 No.12309774

I tried Core2K before. At first I thought it was good, but then I felt that it wasn't too helpful at it wasn't connected to any learning material I was studying. I hoped to be able to use it as my main material but I decided to put it away until I get a proper study book that I will build a custom deck upon.

I'm studying Cantonese now and I add each chapter to my custom deck for it once I master the previous chapter. It does wonders and actually creates an interconnected learning environment, instead of just hammering in an arbitrary list of words.

I plan to use the same strategy once I restart learning Japanese. I'm sure Core2K will be useful still, but I think only past the point where I've learned sufficient basics from a course book - I'm thinking 4-6 chapters with how most language course books are structured.

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 08:18:47 2014 No.12309831

>>12309563
Stop assuming things, I never said I don't study vocab.
Kanji is the only difficult part though. I know a lot of words, I just don't know how to write them until I've learned each kanji it contains individually. And ordering them by radicals with heisig seems the most efficient way to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 13:07:10 2014 No.12310295 Of course. Got to keep up with it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 13:43:25 2014 No.12310379 From this Anki site, what should I grab for a complete beginner? I need to learn Hiragana and Katakana, but I'm not sure which deck from this site will be to pick. Any kind anons wanna link the two for optimal Hiragana and Katakana learning?

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 14:00:21 2014 No.12310408

>>12310379
Any deck will do for the kana, but it's not like you really need one.
I just used dumb browser games like these:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/sheaa/projects/genki/hiragana-timer.html
http://learnjapanesepod.com/kana-invaders/
And only started using anki when I got to vocab and kanji.

Anonymous Wed Jul 30 14:57:27 2014 No.12310582

>>12310408
I concur (I learned kana through Slime Forest Adventure, the free version is certainly enough for that). Anki is there to solidify vocabulary you had to learn when exposed to Japanese (be it in a grammar book or directly through native media).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 16:09:52 2014 No.12310774 >>12310379 You can try KanaTrainer: http://ilearn.dandandin.it/kanatrainer-2.aspx It's in Italian but it's easy to use.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 16:35:30 2014 No.12310848 >>12309774 >Cantonese I'm very ignorant on this matter, why would you learn Cantonese over Mandarin/why not?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 16:48:48 2014 No.12310885 >>12310379 memrise do not memrise for kanji or vocab

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 17:15:26 2014 No.12310954 >>12310848 Cantonese is harder than Mandarin and spoken by less people in general.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 17:22:22 2014 No.12310973 >>12310848 Cantonese is primarily only spoken in Hong Kong, much less useful than learning Mandarin although HK is a financial centre so it might be useful for that, although you would still probably need to learn Mandarin.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 23:42:10 2014 No.12312124 >>12304385 50 new in my vocab deck, 30 new in my grammar deck, 9999 reviews in both. I do use the load balancer plugin, though.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 30 23:56:16 2014 No.12312164 I stopped half a year ago after maintaining a bit over 3k kanji for half a year. Doing good so far. You just don't need it after a while.

Anonymous Thu Jul 31 11:34:52 2014 No.12313458

>>12310848
A few reasons, having a Cantowaifu being the main one. Also Hong Kong is a fantastic place with the best food ever. Also fuck the commie mainland guvt runing local cultures, forcing Putonghua on everyone, and trying to turn HK into a shithole. Also greentext:

>dem Stephen Chow movies
>dem HK cop movies
>Sleeping Dogs, hands down
>why don't you have a pork bun in your hand?
>simplified is for pleb, real men learn traditional
>almost all of the good old Chinatowns around the world (in US especially) were founded by Cantonese and it remains the most relevant dialect outside of China

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 11:51:40 2014 No.12313486 >>12313458 That's not how you use greentext. And I don't even mean that you're not quoting people in the thread. You just took a sentence and put it in greentext for no fucking reason. Fucking retard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 11:54:06 2014 No.12313492 >>12313486 I got lazy towards the end, relax your anus.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 11:57:39 2014 No.12313503 >>12313492 A comma connecting two independent clauses. What retard school taught you to do that?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 12:01:04 2014 No.12313512 >>12313503 What retard school didn't teach you about ellipsis?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 12:50:11 2014 No.12313852 >>12313512 >>12313503 >>12313492 >>12313486 It's like I'm really browsing DJT.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 17:03:54 2014 No.12314574 how do you guys sort your decks? right now i just have one deck that i put every word i come across in. any sorting tips?

Anonymous Thu Jul 31 20:36:13 2014 No.12315130

>>12301875
I haven't done any reps for three months and I've an itch to get back to it. Too busy. I try doing a little reading and listening comprehension here and there.

>>12307208
>As for the accuracy of KD, there might be some small errors here and there, but nothing major.
Isn't Kanji Damage bad from the point that it makes up its own radicals/radical names and lies about how difficult and ridiculous kanji is?

>>12307680
Yeah. Personally, it's the best method. (I don't use mnemonics though).
Coupled with writing, memorizing the kanji's meaning and [some] readings creates a reinforced toolchain for reading. When I see a word made up of kanji I'm familiar with, I can work out the word by the individual kanji's readings like a combination lock.
This is also how I pick up vocabulary (rather than first learning vocabulary and then trying to learn to read).

>>12314574
I sort my kanji decks actual half-sized index cards by Jouyou grade level with three, smaller "active" decks (about 30 cards each).
Deck one: kanji of the grade I'm studying.
Deck two: kanji outside of my grade level but I see often enough to add them.
Deck three: Other kanji that will be moved into the second deck.

Anonymous Thu Jul 31 20:45:24 2014 No.12315147
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>>12307208
No, anon. The mistakes contained in KD are severe.
It uses a completely unnecessary and broken order for teaching you kanji (yes, radicals are important, but you should still try to prioritize the important ones), it uses its own arbitrary way of ranking "usefulness" of words and kanji, he skips up like 400 kanji because he thinks they're not common (which is also completely arbitrary and highly depends on what you're doing with your japanese), he has stupid tags like that "fucked roots" stuff, and so it goes.

I put a lot of effort into learning japanese, and I actually learned kanji using KD (although by writing them down instead of using mnemonics), and this is my conclusion: it has too many problems, go for Heisig. As much as I agree with you that one should find their own journey, there are certain methods you should definitively not use, such as Rosetta Stone and Kanji Damage. And it's nice that you passed N2, but I wouldn't use it as an accomplishment or any sort of way of proving KD's usefulness with it.
Also, you should stop making baseless assumptions just because someone criticized your method of studying. People have opinions, you know.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 23:39:54 2014 No.12315510 Wich one is the best Japanese learning program? pls respond

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 31 23:58:19 2014 No.12315545 File: 22 KB, 229x173, 1400645895017.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 00:19:55 2014 No.12315622 >>12304423 >100 reviews It's been three days, so it may be too late. Quickly remove that limit if you want to lear nanything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 00:25:15 2014 No.12315640 >>12315510 The ones that work best for you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 00:34:43 2014 No.12315664 >>12315510 Anki is flawless for what it does. But yeah, whatever works best for you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 00:45:21 2014 No.12315697 is there any "japanese program 3000" that teaches you how to properly speak-write-read in japanese? i heared there was a specific one that also had audio assistance so that you could improve your pronunciation

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 01:31:23 2014 No.12315836 >>12315622 no

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 01:38:47 2014 No.12315858 >>12315836 Well, you'll see how it goes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 01:44:33 2014 No.12315865 >>12315858 I only have 50-70 cards to review because I only do 10 new cards a day.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:08:52 2014 No.12315930 >>12315865 You're fine for now but when it goes above 100 it will seriously negatively impact your long-term retention. Though, I'm just giving advice, not telling you how to live your life.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:19:58 2014 No.12315972

How important is it to know the root meaning of a kanji even though the meaning may change and may act different when used in a jukugo?

I just realized that KD had the wrong meaning for 慢. He wrote it as "neglect/egotistical" but Rikai had it as "ridicule/laziness". He also did the same thing for 博.

Now I don't feel like continuing KD anymore.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:34:39 2014 No.12316027 >>12315972 You'll get the gist of a kanji after seeing it in a lot of words. English approximations don't do'm justice.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:46:39 2014 No.12316061
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>>12315972
Both are right. Kanji can have multiple "meanings". In fact, most do.
If you use Kanji in 熟語 they can mean completely different things, that's why it's often not possible to match one specific Kanji to one meaning.

For example, for 博 you have 博物館 (museum) or 博雅 (extensive knowledge) and the 博士 you mentioned.
If you're that concerned, I'd recommend looking up the Kanji you learn with KD on jisho.org to check for other possible meanings. You should do that anyway for the stroke order.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:55:18 2014 No.12316085

>>12316061
Oh, and there's also 賭博 which has nothing to do with any of the meanings mentioned on Jisho/Rikai or KD. This is why it's better to learn Kanji in context instead of just the readings and meanings. KD always gives you at least some vocab, but there should be more focus on that in my opinion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 02:56:19 2014 No.12316089 >>12316085 I agree with you, but it's worthwhile to look up kanji and memorize their reading it they have only a single on'yomi.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 03:20:42 2014 No.12316166

>>12315972
KD doesn't give you the "real" meaning of the character (in the Chinese sense), he gives you the meaning that will be the easiest to remember both by itself and for jukugo (at least in his experience).

He says as much on the site. If you want the "correct" thing, go to RTK.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 03:41:06 2014 No.12316232

>>12316166
No. RTK does the same thing KD does. If the meaning of the character doesn't match the way you use it most of the time, why bother with that meaning at all?

Staying with the example of 博, RTK has it listed as "Dr", while that's not actually the original meaning (which would be gamble/wide, see http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8D%9A).). However, since that's how the Kanji is often used, they changed the meaning to something they saw more fitting.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 03:45:55 2014 No.12316238 >>12316232 Hm, didn't know that. I assumed that's how it was since I don't remember reading otherwise in his introduction. I agree that it's completely useless to learn the chinese meanings.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:03:31 2014 No.12316272

I'm about 2k words into 2k/6k/10k after memorizing the first 2000 common use kanji. About 200 dues every day, plus ~50 in custom study usually. I can add maybe 25 cards daily, max.

I assumed that at 2000 words I should be able to start reading, but I haven't found anything where I don't tackle an unknown word every other sentence. Anyone knows any reading materials? Because at this rate I'll be stuck in Anki for another year before I can read anything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:05:35 2014 No.12316276 >>12316238 To be fair, RTK keeps it much closer than KD in my experience. I don't think it matters though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:07:39 2014 No.12316279 >>12316272 I honestly started reading at about 1000 words. Read moege maybe?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:10:35 2014 No.12316281 >>12316279 Which one? For the record I tried Pokemon and some light manga. If there's furigana I can handle it easily, but what's the point.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:13:03 2014 No.12316283
File: 1.45 MB, 1820x2048, 1394029827284.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>12316281
Most moege is simple, its not like its grandiose chuuni shit. Ive seen this posted around so give some of these a try. For the record I dont think Clannad is that easy so try to steer clear of that unless you feel confident enough.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:17:11 2014 No.12316288 >>12316283 i can't imagine that s;g is easy to read. shit, there were some words i didn't know there and i read it in english.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:17:34 2014 No.12316289

>>12316272
Encountering an unknown word every other sentence is perfectly fine. That means you have a chance to learn that word in context when you encounter it. It's only when you need to look up more than half the sentence that it become a problem.

Thing is, unless you read materials with intentionally restricted vocabulary, it will take ages to learn all the words you might encounter. Like, you'd have to go through core 10k and beyond, just to learn those couple of hundred words you will encounter for the specific material you plan to read.

Also, reading as much as possible helps develop your intuitive understanding of the language, which in itself makes it easier to understand vocabulary you don't know. If you think about it, in English you still encounter new words occasionally, but you can usually learn them without ever looking them up, since your overall understanding of English is good enough to grasp and apply a meaning to them from the context you see them in.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:19:54 2014 No.12316292

>>12316288
Doesn't it have made-up sci-fi words and shit?

I think a game like that would be really frustrating to play in a language you're still trying to learn, since when you encounter a word you don't understand, you can't be quite sure if you're supposed to understand it.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:24:09 2014 No.12316300

>>12316283
I'll check out one of the shorter ones, thanks.

>>12316289
Sure, but it's hard for me to justify putting effort into in-context learning when I still have 90% of my deck to go through in an organized manner. I definitely learn a lot of new stuff (like most of the keywords in Pokemon), but it's depressing to guesstimate the meaning of a word every sentence.

There's a 15k expansion to the 10k deck I'm using, and from my experience once I learn a word through Anki I can read it flawlessly in practice. I guess what I mean to say is that I wanna make use of my knowledge right now to read some shit I'll like, rather than read for practice.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:36:43 2014 No.12316319

>>12316289
This is how I learned English and I thought Japanese would be different because of the writing system. It isn't and I was retarded.

Now I am doing that old challenge I found the other day on Koohii: read x NHK News Easy articles a day and read the normal version of those afterward. For 30 days. After that I'll marathon some easy to intermediate eroge with Machine Assisted Help.

I am thinking about ditching Anki completely, since I am getting much more vocab a minute, I am actually reading Japanese and I don't plan to stop reading jp stuff a single day ever once I'll have got that skill refined.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:46:38 2014 No.12316339

>>12316300
>rather than read for practice.
There are three portions of Japanese, roughly speaking. Vocabulary, Kanji, and grammar. Core exercises Vocab and Kanji but not grammar. By reading something, even moege, you'll be exercising grammar, which you haven't done much of. Therefore you'll pretty much be reading for practice no matter what you do.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:50:11 2014 No.12316346 >>12316339 Of course reading is always practice, but I mean I don't want shit like that NHK Easy because that's boring (plus it has furigana, undermining the whole thing). I'll say though I have grammar down. I don't need any practice for that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:51:07 2014 No.12316348 >>12316346 You sure? Real life grammar is something far more complex than just what's in Tae Kim.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:58:43 2014 No.12316364

>>12316348
I already had grammar down before I even started kana because of ridiculous amounts of speech immersion. Helped with grammar but did jack shit for vocab aside from kawaii and omae.
I read about 15 volumes of manga so far with furigana and had no problem with grammar, so I see no reason to focus on it. Worst case scenario I'll pick up any holes as I focus on vocab.

I think I skimmed through Tae Kim at some point but never had any real grammar study

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 04:59:43 2014 No.12316365 >>12316364 By speech immersion do you mean living in Japan or watching anime? I'm always incredulous about people saying they learned grammar from Anime, it just blows my mind.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 05:02:07 2014 No.12316367 >>12316365 Listening to people speaking Japanese Anime probably had an effect too, at least in the beginning it's a lot easier to understand than real speech, what with all the English mixed in, and the grammar is usually more textbook-y

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 05:10:46 2014 No.12316381

>>12316346
I copy the content in a txt and read it with Yomichan. No furigana and still a rikaisama-like helper (but better imho). Use your imagination.

I like reading news and I gave myself as a rule to not read news other than japanese (except zerohedge once a day because things are nasty these days), so it must help on the motivation side of things.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 05:47:45 2014 No.12316473 File: 58 KB, 340x341, mio_gee_huh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I like these threads. They're slower and actually feel like a leisure, on-topic break from studying, unlike a certain other thread somewhere else.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 05:58:56 2014 No.12316493 >>12316473 I think the difference is the tone of the OPs- here it's "Have you studied/hows your studying" while the other thread is more guide/help focused.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 07:22:56 2014 No.12316628

What should I buy for my starting textbook, Genki or Elementary Japanese (Hasegawa)? Or something else is recommended?

I'm one of those people who "learned Japanese from animu" (actually more from idol variety shows and such in my case), I went to Japan a couple of times and could get around without much difficulty, and even hold some basic convos with locals. I know I have immense gaps though and I want to do it right from step 1.

Is it viable to skip a proper textbook and just go the route of Anki reps for vocab and grammar reference on the web? Where were you when you started learning Japanese proper, what method did you use, and looking back how would you have improved it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 07:24:40 2014 No.12316636 >>12316628 Learn kana and jump into the reading bandwagon I'd say. A pre-made anki deck is more if you lack confidence and want to grind in a controlled environment (you can do both though).

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 07:25:47 2014 No.12316640 >>12316636 >reading before grammar and vocab Wat? I'm quoting ur mum on my dick, btw.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 07:28:05 2014 No.12316642 >>12316640 Well, reading Tae Kim or something in between kana and reading (or at the same time) is a viable option too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 07:34:02 2014 No.12316651 >>12316493 /a/ - morons asking for help /jp/ - morons blogging about their day

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 08:33:48 2014 No.12316737

>>12316636
I can read kana almost fluently, plus a handful of kanji (30 maybe). But my idea was to first become proficient and fluent at conversation, and only start hammering kanji once I can understand maybe 90% of mainstream media and hold an everyday casual conversation without stumbling. Of course I don't want to be illiterate and I'm sure I'll pick up a good amount of kanji naturally in the process, but I just don't want to focus my resources on that for now. Any comments?

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 08:39:34 2014 No.12316744

>>12316737
This is an absolutely awful idea, and I will explain why.

Learning words and their pronunciation is absolutely dependent on knowing kanji. For example, 電 means "electricity" and is almost always pronounced でん in words. Here's a short list off the top of my head.

電車
電池
電気

でんしゃ (train) でんち (battery) でんき (light)

If you learn words without kanji, you will have to individually learn those words with no connection. But just by learning 電 their pronunciations become much clearer and unified. This is true for pretty much every word- the kanji its composed of give it both its meaning and its pronunciaiton. Learning words without kanji will make it harder on yourself.

In conclusion, bite the bullet now and you'll actually be able to succeed. If you learn kana-only words you will both be making it harder on yourself AND wasting a bunch of time because you'll have to re-learn literally every word with it's kanji.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:00:26 2014 No.12316780 File: 5 KB, 417x319, rep.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Working on it.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:20:21 2014 No.12316814

>>12316744
That sounds very reasonable, thank you. The only thing that bothers me about is that I'll be pushing speaking fluency for the sake of reading proficiency by probably at least 2 years, and being able to communicate verbally has a higher priority for me.

By my Western logic you must know how to speak to be able to read, but you don't need to be able to read to be able to speak. But I'm not arguing with your point, I suppose Japanese is different with their writing system that takes two lifetimes to learn properly.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:22:37 2014 No.12316817 >>12316232 Sure it does, huh? http://kanjidamage.com/kanji/185-to-hella-do-%E5%9F%B7

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:26:56 2014 No.12316820

>>12316814
You can definitely learn to speak Japanese without knowing how to read, it's not especially difficult compared to other languages. But there's no reason to do that when kanji is so helpful for learning the language. They provide means of memorizing both the pronunciation and meaning of a word. New words can be picked up almost instantly thanks to kanji.

In summary, there is absolutely NO benefit to learning Japanese without kanji, and tons of benefits for learning Japanese with kanji. The only problem is actually learning the kanji, which is a trial we all must go through- there are only 3,000ish that you will probably use, so by learning 10 a day you can be done in less than a year.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:33:10 2014 No.12316830 >>12301937 Study Kanji, and do it in parallel with vocab.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:49:09 2014 No.12316854

>>12316744
>Learning words without kanji will make it harder on yourself.
Not always. Especially if the goal is to only be able to fluently read kusoges and LNs.

It's much quicker and easier to learn full words because of how "reading" works (recognising words by their shape/form instead of reading character by character).
Trying to get the meaning of a compound by extrapolating and approximating the meaning of individual kanjis doesn't work very well in practice. It's too unreliable and it's much easier to just grab a dictionary instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 09:51:40 2014 No.12316859 >>12316854 I don't think you fully understood what he was saying- he meant learning words without any kanji, as in "あした" instead of "明日", for every word.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 10:26:23 2014 No.12316902

>>12316820
Makes sense. Thanks again. I wish I had started learning Japanese in a half-assed way a few years ago when I first started to think about it, instead of waiting until now when I feel ready to sit down and do it properly. Even with the half-assedness I'd probably be conversational by now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 10:31:30 2014 No.12316911 >>12316902 I don't know why you're so focused on half-assed methods or whatever. Doing it the "real" whole-assed way isn't that much more work.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 10:38:06 2014 No.12316922

>>12316902
That's why I always tell people to just set up an anki deck with something really small like 5-10 new cards every day, so that there's no way you can think to yourself that you can't be bothered.

Though when I say that, people just laugh at me for suggesting so few reps. Then they probably go and do their 100 new cards a day and get burned out in a few weeks when they can't deal with the 1000+ reps anki starts throwing at them.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 10:38:59 2014 No.12316925

>>12316902

You don't get much from it without rigorous study.

My first 6 years I gained little more than familiarity with kana, good pronunciation, and 1000 or so words mostly by osmosis. Not even sufficient for 幼稚園.

There's a constant battle of progress and regress. Regress with happen naturally with time, but progress is a function of effort. Insufficient effort and you'd require an impractical hundreds of years to get anywhere significant, if you don't just waste time repeatedly learning and forgetting at an indistinguishable rate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 10:50:23 2014 No.12316953 >>12316859 Oh right, true. I actually should have quoted this >>12315130 post instead.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 11:15:52 2014 No.12316987

>>12316925
Habit is more important than effort. You only regress if you go several weeks without doing any activities that refresh your knowledge (reading, talking in Japanese, reviewing your anki cards, etc). In those 6 years, did you make sure to do something, even if it's just a little, every single day? Or did you start out well, then taper off, maybe start up again with rediscovered motivation after a few months, and then forget about it again?

Stuff like that easily happens when you blow up the task too much. If you tell yourself that a study session has to be long and tedious to be worth anything, it will take more motivation to start a study session at all. It becomes all or nothing, you'll only study when you have motivation for a long study session. If you instead develop an attitude of "anything helps", you can study whenever you have the slightest bit of motivation.

Also when it comes to routines, they're much easier to develop if you start out with an easy one and build on that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 11:48:18 2014 No.12317061 >>12316987 I didn't really have any methods. I guess it is how children naturally pick up language, but as I do not have a child's brain, and I wasn't continually exposed, the rate of acquisition was unacceptably slow.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 11:57:20 2014 No.12317114 >>12317061 Children's supposed superior learning ability suddenly doesn't seem that impressive anymore when you consider that they have the luxury of 100% immersion 24/7 and still need 6 years to reach elementary school level.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 12:01:53 2014 No.12317133 >>12316061 There's even a manga based on the multiple meanings of kanji. I think it's called Aphorism.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 12:13:21 2014 No.12317171 >>12317114 I'd say its impressive that they go from having no knowledge what-so-ever, not even understanding fundamental concepts to producing and understanding usable speech in about a year without any study.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 12:21:42 2014 No.12317192 >>12317171 >without any study. all you do is "study" if you're talking about language acquisition at a young age. not only is it a survival mechanism, but like the other anon said its 24/7 immersion.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 12:43:05 2014 No.12317226
File: 125 KB, 683x754, png.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>12315930
I don't think I'll ever get to 100 again unless I raise new cards to 50. All I have is an easy core 10k deck and the rest is reviewing a kanji deck and a deck I made. I don't even feel like going through the core deck because I'm not really getting anything out of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 14:40:54 2014 No.12317495 >>12317192 It's osmosis, not study. Though, I wonder, if one put an adult in Japan and prevented them from studying in their native language at all, how fast would they be able to pick up the language from scratch?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 16:23:21 2014 No.12317712 >>12317495 I think it may work with a visual dictionary and children books to start with. BTW, visual dictionaries are awesome sauce, but we never get scans of them and I don't see any website doing the job.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 17:41:03 2014 No.12317941 >>12317226 Hmm, I don't see how you're not getting much from it. I'm using a Core deck as well and it's very helpful. I even see it more as a "kanji" deck than a "vocab" deck to be honest, since that's what's really getting drilled into my head.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 17:55:53 2014 No.12317976 Of course, I do it every morning as soon as I wake up. Anyone who has a problem doing such a simple thing is a useless human being.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 17:58:12 2014 No.12317982 >>12309774 Unnecessary. Just read Tae Kim and start reading VNs. Mine a deck from that. It's not that hard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:02:36 2014 No.12317995 >>12317982 >It's not that hard. Yes it is, have you done it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:04:45 2014 No.12317999 >>12317995 Yes. You don't need a textbook.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:07:08 2014 No.12318003

>>12317999
A lot of people benefit from using DOBJG/Genki, so I wouldn't turn people away from them.

I think reading while having no vocabulary is pretty difficult, and probably would be for most people, so I wouldn't recommend that as a primary method. Unless they too find it easy as you did.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:22:00 2014 No.12318043

>>12318003
Why the time you're done with Tae Kim, you will know over 1000 words. You'll know all the JLPT n5 words plus more. You'll also already be used to mining by then. I should have also mentioned that I added all the words Tae Kim used to my own anki deck, plus some basic words that I wanted to know and looked up as I went along.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:45:04 2014 No.12318105

>>12316628
I haven't heard of 'Elementary Japanese', but Genki seems good. (I have the books, but haven't yet properly used them). Check /a/'s Daily Japanese Thread OP links for a sample of the Genki series.

I wouldn't skip a textbook. They're a sort of solid structure and foundation replacing a teacher and classroom. It also serves as a single, well-rounded source of information

>Where were you when you started learning Japanese proper, what method did you use, and looking back how would you have improved it?
As someone that's been learning Japanese off and on for about ten years, it's hard to say when I started "learning Japanese proper", but I guess I was on irc two years ago, during a period of not studying, and made a friend that was actively doing so. Motivated, I planned out how I wanted to [re]approach the language in order to continue (which is focusing on being able to read; kanji) since my previous method wasn't panning out (a book titled 'Japanese the Easy Way', anime, vocabulary lists; basically kind of aimless/non-prioritized).

Looking back, I'd have:
- Not paid much mind to those saying Japanese is very difficult (thus starting out with more confidence and not buying books with romaji)
- Purchased a book that not only used kana, but also showed how to write them.
I learned the kana with this nifty game http://www.aeriagloris.com/LearnJapanese/ but, years later, came to regret not writing them as I was unable do so when I needed to. (I personally found out that knowing how to read, but not write is a very real thing.)

>>12316651
>Any sort of personal comment/feedback is blogging
We're learning and talking about [learning] Japanese; how is it not bound to have some personal posts?
I find it rather fun and interesting to hear about others' learning methods or progress instead of threads full of the same questions and learning-method bashing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 18:51:05 2014 No.12318126 >>12318043 Ah, that would be a lot less difficult.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 21:48:09 2014 No.12318545 Daily reminder that you need 40,000 words to be fluent.

Anonymous Fri Aug 1 22:36:47 2014 No.12318737

>>12318545

Depends how words are defined.

For example:

上げる
上がる
上げ
上がり
取り上げる
駆け上がる
and more

Are all considered to be separate words, despite obvious patterns governing these derivations and their related meanings.

Often, knowing one word means you can learn several others with minimal effort.

40k also includes a lot of words that the speaker never personally uses, may go years without hearing, and probably can't give a proper definition of. Specialist and technical language, and fanciful adjectives and verbs that are synonyms of others.

Half that number are even vaguely useful, and one quarter are sufficient for general usage.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 22:45:18 2014 No.12318764 >>12318737 If one quarter of 40,000 is sufficient, then Core10k is clearly the optimal way to go.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 22:49:26 2014 No.12318781 >>12318764 Except he's being retarded and the core10k is hardly sufficient for reading anything. You need way more than that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:20:06 2014 No.12318897 >>12318781 Can't you just pick up words based on context by the time you get to 10k?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:21:29 2014 No.12318906 >>12318897 The core10k probably only has like 2000 kanji in it, so obviously not.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:31:07 2014 No.12318927 >>12318906 Core10k optimized has 2,380-ish total kanji.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:36:50 2014 No.12318933 >>12318927 >>12318906 >>12318897 >>12318781 >>12318764 Which is why you should just get used to reading with a dictionary.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:39:21 2014 No.12318938 >>12301875 No, as excited as I was to learn japanese and even to do my reps, I stalled within a few days. It sucks not being able to do things I enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:40:35 2014 No.12318942 >>12318933 Okay.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 1 23:42:05 2014 No.12318950 >>12318938 Man up and do them anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 00:01:08 2014 No.12319014 >>12318950 I'd love to, but I won't.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 00:06:09 2014 No.12319037 >>12319014 Well, don't post here then.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 07:44:52 2014 No.12319987

>>12318764

Core10k is based on newspapers and similar.

A lot of those words are going to be based on business and things, which aren't particularly useful if you're trying to read most VNs.

10000 words you've personally encountered and learnt is useful.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 07:49:02 2014 No.12319993

>>12319987
While I wrote that post in jest, I've been using an optimized Core deck for awhile and have seen none of those business words that everyone talks about. Everything thusfar has been common, everyday words that are very much used in VNs. Here are some I learned today/yesterday, from what I remember.

汚す
星
地球・野球
凍る・氷
冷蔵庫

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:05:02 2014 No.12320019 >>12319993 You're still in core2k.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:06:54 2014 No.12320021

Why do so many NEETs seem to do the Core decks and just vocab drilling in general?

If you're a NEET then you can constantly be at the computer and there's so many tools that you can use to instantly look up words (Rikaisama, KanjiTomo, handwriting recognition if KanjiTomo doesn't work, etc), so I don't understand why NEETs would spend so much of their time trying to rote memorize vocab through flashcards. Wouldn't you prefer to just read constantly, have programs instantly look up the words for you as you read, and then gradually memorize them through constant exposure? Anki seems useful if you're a normal person who has to spend most of their time working and needs to find some way to quickly cram in vocab study at the end of the day, but NEETs can be hooked up to the computer 24/7 and exposed to the language constantly.

Vocab has never been an issue for me because I don't really give a shit about it. I read what I want to read, the definitions appear if I can't remember the word, eventually it gets memorized after running into the same words so many times, but I don't really care because it only saves me the two seconds that it would have taken to look the word up. Overall, it's very stressfree and enjoyable.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:13:27 2014 No.12320025
File: 225 KB, 674x781, Screen Shot 2014-08-02 at 3.09.36 PM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It's a mess because I was on vacation for a month (you can guess where I had flights or long drives by looking), and it doesn't include my other deck (with about 50 reviews/day), but the averages are about accurate.

I should really focus on getting more cards in there

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:26:57 2014 No.12320045 File: 151 KB, 289x310, 1406654659064.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] 新参者にて、どうぞよしなに

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:36:19 2014 No.12320063

>>12320021
When I was a NEET, I sure as fuck didn't want to study like a NEET, because I wanted to have projects at home or otherwise entertain myself in a time consuming way so I won't bleed boredom out of my ass. The only solution is to study like any other busy person, with decks and the occasional read.

And I still started to tackle depression a bit before I started having a life. I can't imagine surviving if I utilized my time the way you're describing.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:36:58 2014 No.12320067

>>12320021
This is what I am trying to do but I have trouble to find something that I can manage to read fairly easily. I am looking for NHK News Easy articles that are not boring, picture books for children that are free and got all the ChokoChoko pdf at the moment, but if you know some interesting otaku stuff that I can enjoy to decipher through intensive reading, I am all in.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:37:37 2014 No.12320068 >>12320021 >radually memorize them through constant exposure That never worked for me.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 08:38:36 2014 No.12320070

>>12320021
A lot of the words in the early parts of those decks are things that can be easily grouped like colors, days, months,etc. I think it makes sense to learn things like that together rather than learn them as you come across them. But for most verbs and adjectives I can see what you mean.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:05:24 2014 No.12320128

>>12320067
Honestly, I think you should just pick something that you know that you're very interested and go with that. At first I tried to read things that were easy because I thought that was just what you had to do if you wanted to get to the stuff you were actually interested in, but I would burn out very quickly from what I thought was difficulty but it was actually just lack of interest. Games and manga are generally easier to read because it has less of those long monologues that you find in novels or VNs, but if the interest is there then that's all that really matters.

For example, the first thing that I read and finished reading without burning out was the 龍が如く series. On one hand, it wasn't easy at all because it uses a stylized font that KanjiTomo has a lot of trouble with, every character either speaks in nothing but slurred slang Japanese or they speak kansai-ben, which initially sounded completely unintelligible to me. Before I made it through the first game and started getting used to it, for almost any given sentence I was referencing dialect guides to teach me kansai-ben, googling to try to understand all of the butchered slang conjugations they were throwing around, and trying to find definitions for words they slurred so badly that no dictionary even had entries for the gibberish that they were saying.

Even with all of those difficulties though, because it was a series that I loved I was happily willing to put in 10 to 12 hours a day without ever feeling bored. In comparison though, I used to have trouble getting through even 30 minutes of trying to read an easy manga or VN that I had no interest in. If you have the passion for something then that's all that really matters, as long as you're passionate about what you're reading then you will be able to put in however long it takes to climb over the barriers of difficulty that the game/book/VN/manga throws at you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:15:54 2014 No.12320140 >>12320128 Thanks for the input. Then I guess immersing in jp Skyrim should be done as soon as possible, because I love the idea.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:21:44 2014 No.12320148 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va3QCXWX0oM do them

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:23:22 2014 No.12320151

>>12320140
Recording it as you play with some software like fraps or MSI Afterburner (fraps kills my FPS, but afterburner doesn't seem to have any impact) should help a lot with that. That's what I had to do for a lot of games because of issues like unpausable cutscenes that would have the subtitles going by faster than I could look up the words. It works pretty well since then you can play for a few hours, try to understand as much as possible while simultaneously improving your listening ability, and then check your recording when you're done and use something like kanjitomo to help you thoroughly go through those parts that had a lot of dialogue that went by too quickly on the first pass.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:36:08 2014 No.12320169 >>12320151 I have a software that creates a jpg automatically each time I press print screen. I guess I can use less disk space this way (I lose the listening part unfortunately but reading is my top priority for now).

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:37:31 2014 No.12320170

>>12320070
Even though I've studied and read Japanese stuff for years, I actually still don't know the weeks and months due to never grouping them up and attempting to memorize them properly. Hell, I'm even using a Japanese calender on my computer, but somehow I'm using it without ever learning the words on it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:40:59 2014 No.12320174 Why does rikai work for the comment section in niconico videos that aren't live but it doesn't work for the comment section in live videos?

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:47:01 2014 No.12320184

>>12320170
That's why immersion doesn't work on adults the same way it works on babies. When you don't know any language, you learn the one in front of you, but if you're an adult already fluent in a language (say 12 years old plus), your brain will do everything in its power to survive only using that language. You'll only learn the bare minimum you need to tackle daily issues.

The only way for an adult to learn a language is by using the language he already knows as a proxy (for example, Core). Learning through reading is bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 09:59:47 2014 No.12320198 >>12320184 Learning through immersion works but you have to max out grammar first. It's one thing to just stop and look up a word on the dictionary, but when you can't find the proper sentence structure or can't de-conjugate words then you're helpless.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 10:05:17 2014 No.12320202

>>12320184
>by using the language he already knows as a proxy (for example, Core). Learning through reading is bullshit.
That's the point of bilingual dictionaries. No one is suggesting that you try to learn by looking at a book and somehow hope that the meanings for the words will magically be absorbed through immersion. The only difference between learning words in a Core deck and learning words as you read is that dictionary definitions outside of Core are more comprehensive than the limited one to two word definitions in Core and it forces you to actually read the sentences, reference grammar rules, and understand how the meaning of this word fits into the overall meaning of the sentence. One of the problems with Core is that it doesn't really prepare you for reading or for doing much of anything with the language other than parroting out English definitions. The definitions that you memorized, especially for adjectives and verbs, will be too limited to apply in most contexts, so you will still have to use a dictionary most of the time, and it won't give you any real grammar practice outside of the one generic example sentence per word that most people ignore anyway.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 10:06:58 2014 No.12320206

>>12320184
That's true, but alternatively, a way to force your brain to adapt to a new language is to use it. To have conversations and write sentences means you can't take the easy way out by using the language you already know.

It's really difficult to find willing participants though.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 10:11:57 2014 No.12320212

>>12320202
Of course Core is missing context, it's a bunch of words. But an adult can learn words more efficiently and more deeply by learning in an organized manner that utilizes the language he already knows, that's my point.

The correct way (for example using anki) to go would be to learn the word by associating it with your language, and THEN seeing it in the wild and getting a general feel for it in a conscious and deliberate manner. It's faster and holds stronger in your mind than skipping the first step, because you're missing that English root.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 10:19:16 2014 No.12320221

>>12320212
To add on that, a metaphor I've seen used before is to liken vocabulary to a garden. By learning a word you're planting a seedling that needs some sort of slab to grow straight not fall over or be crooked. The slab, something that's already stuck to the ground proper, is like a language you're fluent in that's all over your brain. Then the tree grows by usage and context and can hold on its own, without that initial help.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 10:33:21 2014 No.12320241

>>12320212
>But an adult can learn words more efficiently and more deeply by learning in an organized manner that utilizes the language he already knows, that's my point.

Sure, I agree with that, but that really only applies for a very small number of words. Days of the week, months, possibly colors, etc. Numbers as well, but it would be better to read about numbers outside of anki in a grammar book before just memorizing them randomly in anki. Outside of these most basic words though, any organization that you do past this point is going to be more like sets of words that come in abstract themes (office words, shopping words, words about trains and cars, etc) but their meanings don't have that direct connection to each other that things like days of the week and months do.

With the exception of the first 1,000 or so words that I did learn with Core before dropping it, every word in my deck of over 23,000 words has been mined from reading. I never review them and I only add them using rikaisama's automatic import feature so that I can keep track of words that I've already encountered, but many of them I know like the back of my hand and there's no important structure for most of these words. Some of them are encountered more often in certain genres than others, but they don't have that same connection. I could sort them all by abstract themes, but it would just be a waste of time. The only words that are hard to remember are the words that I rarely ever see, so Core decks that are based around showing you the most common words in a language aren't particularly useless. A custom deck with the most uncommon words that you've seen might be useful and one day I might do that, but the common words? You don't even have to try to remember them after seeing them a lot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:07:10 2014 No.12320277 >>12313458 good enough reasons for me i love HK good luck with your guangdongwa and future nihongo

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:15:35 2014 No.12320287

>>12320221
I find that the mind works kinda like a diagram where you write down a fact and then draw a line leading to another related fact. All learning seems like it can be boiled down to associating facts.

When you're a kid and your parents try to teach you to say mommy and daddy, you hear that exact sound every time attention is drawn to your mother/father, and you learn to associate the two. Then when you're taught how to read, you're taught to associate the lines that form the letter M, with the sound M, and so on until you can figure out the association between the sound of the word mommy and the sequence of letters that make up the written word. Then if you want to learn Japanese, you'll learn to associate お母さん with mommy. But then you'll see that word in many contexts and create a lot of subtle associations with it that makes it an unique word with a different nuance of meaning than the word you originally associated it with. As you get really good at Japanese, you won't need to associate with English at all anymore, but you'll be associating new words with facts from that gigantic, intricate web of facts you have built up.

This is why you can't learn a language simply by reading a bunch of books in that language, you won't have anything to associate with the new information you're receiving.

I'm not a neuroscientist, so I can't really prove this model, but it seems to explain everything.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:21:22 2014 No.12320297

>>12320287
You must have missed the part where that anon said that don't just read books but lookup words that you don't know as you encounter them. This is simply the same as grinding Core, except you do it directly with native content and you count on the fact that you'll get to memorize them as long as they are repeated here and there..

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:25:39 2014 No.12320302 >>12320297 I wasn't disagreeing with anyone, particularly not that anon. He gave a mental model, and I tried to give my own mental model, hoping that it would explain the logic behind the learning methods we both seem to agree are effective.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:42:57 2014 No.12320331

Isn't grinding words without context a bore and chore? I really can't imagine people enjoying learning English with just a dictionary's worth of words. Isn't the purpose being able to read something? Start simple and at your grade level.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/index.html

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 11:56:54 2014 No.12320357 Is lurking 2chan and looking up vocabulary you don't know a good way of learning Japanese if you have grammar down?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:02:04 2014 No.12320373 >>12320331 Practicing with the news on the regular NHK site is much better, if you play the video on the side of each article you'll find out they're basically a transcript of what the announcer says.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:09:26 2014 No.12320389 File: 1.63 MB, 3264x2448, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Moonspeakers, what does this say?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:13:29 2014 No.12320398 >>12320389 Pachinko Monogatari 2 - Lord of Nagoya's Shachihoko Shachihoko are the golden fish statues built on the roof of Nagoya's castle, by the way

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:15:03 2014 No.12320402 >>12320398 Thank you

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:18:46 2014 No.12320408 File: 1.50 MB, 3264x2448, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12320398 Could you translate this one too?

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:24:04 2014 No.12320415

>>12320170
>I actually still don't know the weeks and months due to never grouping them up and attempting to memorize them properly.
Protip: The months are numbers + 月
I've yet to do this myself, but I think it'd be a good help to write out the current weekday, date, and time in Japanese everyday.
I know the days of the week, months, most dates (the irregular ones trip me up) and telling time, but haven't really exercised the last two and can't comprehend them fast enough when spoken.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:26:46 2014 No.12320423 >>12320408 Kiki Kaikai - Mystery of the black cape

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:29:38 2014 No.12320430 >>12320302 Point taken kind anon, I must have been lost somewhere. >>12320357 Someone presumedly did that on DJT, with only rikaisama, 2ch and some matome/news blogs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:34:38 2014 No.12320439 >>12320423 Thanks

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:38:36 2014 No.12320445 >>12320408 Isn't that Pocky and Rocky?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 12:50:17 2014 No.12320462 Please don't turn this into a translate thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 13:05:55 2014 No.12320483 >>12320445 Yes actually. I looked it up and that's the American version. Really fun.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 13:29:57 2014 No.12320537 Are there any times where けど actually means "but, however" or is it always a softener that has no actual meaning other to make the statement sound less assertive?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 13:33:12 2014 No.12320540 >>12320537 When it's in the middle of a sentence and not the end.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 14:57:59 2014 No.12320713 I'm averaging half a minute per card. This is horrible.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:15:57 2014 No.12321073 >>12320140 To follow on that, I can use KanjiTomo in real time if I force the game in borderless mode, but transparency in the menu tends to fuck up recognition. This is definitely a fun method to increase vocabulary anyway.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:27:39 2014 No.12321095

I have an idea and I need advice on whether it's stupid.
I'm trying to learn both programmin (C) & japanese. These are primarily what im doing in my life.
I suck at learning and have made little progress since like, a year ago. I think forcing myself to study an hour each a day might help me. Since I have school when it's not summer, I feel like I might procrastinate and drop this schedule. Good idea or bad?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:45:05 2014 No.12321134 >>12321095 Ask again when you're older.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:46:41 2014 No.12321137 >>12321134 I'm 20 minutes older, now what.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:46:47 2014 No.12321138 >>12320021 Because ultimately that isn't as fast. 2 hours of Anki a day might seem boring, but when you consider that average normalfag goes to a job or does schoolwork all day, 2 hours isn't very much for an extra push of efficiency.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:50:59 2014 No.12321159 >>12321134 I'm pretty sure he's just a troll. Even if he's not, it's best to just ignore posts like that because they lead nowhere.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 17:54:06 2014 No.12321172

>>12321095

Setting any kind of daily minimum will result in you padding it with easy things.

Maintenance (for example, doing a day's reps) should be the minimum, with anything additional being what feels right, as you're not going to benefit from filler content to meet a quota.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 18:28:14 2014 No.12321284

>>12321095
I know programming. Drop C unless you're aiming to be a hardware engineer. You're looking for C# or Python. C# is a lot better for making indie games or just web programs. Download the Gentooman's Library from /t/ and read some C# books in it. Regularly make random programs to improve. Go to the Daily Programming Thread on /g/ of you need help, but NOT for beginner shit like "how do I print to console?!".

As for Japanese, do kana, download core2k/6k optimized, and do your reps every day.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 19:12:17 2014 No.12321456
File: 260 KB, 740x558, gallery_1_7_39120.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I've done my reps and additional study.

I'm using these decks:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/702754122
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1064504798
and Tae Kim for grammar.

>mfw I can actually understand some stuff said in anime and idol variety shows

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 19:13:42 2014 No.12321458 [DELETED]

There is some guy pretending to be me by telling others that someone is pretending to be me being really rude to posters on /jp/ demanding they remove the background. I don't want people to get hurt because of this bully and he doesn't even appreciate the jobs they do! This is just a notice so I will not be blamed for his wrong doings. Thank you for reading have a good day.

Anonymous Sat Aug 2 19:26:20 2014 No.12321512 [DELETED]

>>12321456
There is some guy pretending to be me by telling others that someone is pretending to be me being really rude to posters on /jp/ demanding they remove the background. I don't want people to get hurt because of this bully and he doesn't even appreciate the jobs they do! This is just a notice so I will not be blamed for his wrong doings. Thank you for reading have a good day.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 19:47:28 2014 No.12321588 >>12321456 You picked up nothing before starting formal study, or did you not consume Japanese media before?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 21:46:12 2014 No.12321824 File: 40 KB, 780x533, kimazui.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I just finished that and got on Lang-8 for the day when I saw this

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 22:15:58 2014 No.12321879 File: 68 KB, 640x427, 1380288418939.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >A month behind >Gets harder to muster the willpower to do them everyday This ride will never end

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 2 22:19:32 2014 No.12321891 >>12321879 If you're a month behind then isn't the ride already over for you...?

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:05:27 2014 No.12322092

>>12321879
Every day is actually a bit much once you get into the swing of things. It's okay to miss some days, as long as you retain at least some of what you were working on and still get back to it.

This is where you find out if you really remember anything you learned.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:07:32 2014 No.12322097 200 cards per day, 50 new per day, doing Core10k How long until I become a nihongo

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:11:21 2014 No.12322104

Is there anyway to reset my deck to a state where it looks like I did all my reps? I don't mean to cheat on them daily, but a month or two ago I stopped and not I have ~10k reps that I would have to do and I know I will never have the motivation to do 10k. I would just like to wipe it back to a state where im doing 500-1000 reps a day and keep on it daily again. I think my only option here is probably starting a new deck

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:18:53 2014 No.12322118 >>12322097 >not even finished the core10k, aka the extreme basics Pretty long.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:20:18 2014 No.12322124 >>12322104 If you're a bitch you can just set the card limit to 1000 a day and just don't start adding until you hit a day where you get less than that, then set it back to infinite.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 00:22:01 2014 No.12322129

>>12322092
Yeah I only do study once a week and I'm in the top 10% of my class. Anyone who says they study every single day is a liar and can say nothing to convince me they're telling the truth. Doesn't matter though, you can't become fluent without formal education anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 02:30:06 2014 No.12322156 >>12322118 >extreme basics >half of the active vocabulary of nips yeah okay >>12322129 The Jews force university classes to go at extremely slow paces to extort money from students.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 02:47:57 2014 No.12322197 >>12322156 I know 20k words and I still have to look up words constantly though. 20k is not enough, 10k is half of not enough. Maybe once you finish your deck you will understand.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 02:57:05 2014 No.12322229

>>12322197
Looking up words isn't a big deal. I had to look up words a lot while being fluent in English.

Also, have you considered that maybe you're just bad? Someone elsewhere mentioned knowing 15k~ vocab and still struggled with Yotsuba. Is that you?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 03:38:34 2014 No.12322314 >>12322229 >Someone elsewhere mentioned knowing 15k~ vocab and still struggled with Yotsuba. Maybe they studied Japanese for the adult world (business and the like); not to understand a babbling child.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 03:41:09 2014 No.12322323

>>12322229
Maybe I'm just bad at what? I'm giving you facts. I look up unknown words that I don't know, despite knowing almost 20,000. Like every single sentence in some things that any native could read fluently easy. I read all 12 volumes of Yotsuba when I had around 5k, it wasn't very difficult. 10k isn't as much as you think and Yotsuba isn't as hard as you think. Difficulty increases exponentially as you move on. I'm sure you're having fun reading hentai doujins fluently and thinking you're almost there.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 06:34:16 2014 No.12322566 >>12322323 Well, I know the average English speaker knows about 30k words, so you might be almost there. I have a feeling that the Japanese need to know even more though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 06:52:00 2014 No.12322593 >>12322566 I don't think I will be native level with 30k either.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:02:44 2014 No.12322609 >>12322566 I am a native English speaker and predictions seem to indicate I only know about 20k words.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:16:36 2014 No.12322632

I'm pretty sure this "30k isn't even enough to read elementary school material" argument is just one of those autists who can't stand that people are studying core vocabulary and tries to argue against it by claiming that no amount of core vocabulary is enough.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:43:48 2014 No.12322675

>>12322632
Well I'm the guy who just posted about it and I don't have a problem with core. I used it when I first started and it's fine. Not sure why you would jump to that conclusion. Core is just meant to be a beginner deck to get you going, and it's a good one.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:52:58 2014 No.12322685

>>12322675
Some people are just really opposed to studying anything outside of context, even if it's just the very basics.

We've had the exact same argument with kanji. People talk about rushing through the first 2k with Heisig or KD so that they can read stuff more comfortably without looking up every single kanji. Then some autist comes in and argues that 2k is nothing, that you need like 10k to understand anything above kindergarten level.

It sounds exactly like the people who used to shit up every thread by claiming you're not learning anything by using Anki or RtK, since you're studying out of context. Now they've finally gone tired of that argument and moved on to claiming that you won't learn enough words/kanji if you use those.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:53:00 2014 No.12322686 What's the best deck/s to download for someone who is just starting and knows no Japanese at all? I mean knowing no hiragana, katakana, kanji, grammar or anything at all?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:57:04 2014 No.12322694 >>12322686 Start with hiragana, then katakana. You can't do much without those.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 07:59:12 2014 No.12322698

>>12322685
I don't really know what you're talking about. I use Anki because it's more efficient than just reading alone, and I read to get words to add. I never once brought up my study methods or anything. I wasn't arguing for any "side". Just stating the fact that you can't read very much with only 10,000 words. Not that you shouldn't use Anki, core, read, or whatever else.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:03:38 2014 No.12322712

>>12322698

Do you look up words in your native language when consuming media, or just assume their meaning based on context, unless they're absolutely pivotal?

I know someone with OCD who looks up multiple words per page and it takes him months to finish books.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:06:04 2014 No.12322718 >>12322698 It sounds like an argument against Anki, since not a lot of people would bother going through a 20k+ Anki deck just to reach the level you claim to be at.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:12:12 2014 No.12322733

>>12322712
I don't look up very many words in English, however I'm fluent in English. I'm not fluent in Japanese.

>>12322718
That's their choice. Most people are fine staying at a beginner / intermediate level for the rest of the lives. They get comfortable and settle for shit. I still use Anki because I still want to make efficient progress because I'm no where near fluent yet.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:18:34 2014 No.12322739 >>12322733 People managed to become fluent in languages before Anki was invented, dude.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:23:21 2014 No.12322746 >>12322739 People used to do calculations on paper, now they use a calculator. What's your point? You don't have to use Anki, I use it for efficiency.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:38:38 2014 No.12322784 >>12322746 It really doesn't sound like it's very effective for you, though. How long did it take you to get those 20k words down?

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 08:53:07 2014 No.12322802

http://www.kecl.ntt.co.jp/icl/mtg/goitokusei/test-sheet1.html
>あなたの語彙数は5800語です．
http://www.kecl.ntt.co.jp/icl/mtg/goitokusei/test-sheet2.html
>あなたの語彙数は2600語です．
http://www.kecl.ntt.co.jp/icl/mtg/goitokusei/test-sheet3.html
>あなたの語彙数は2600語です．

At this rate, I won't reach middle school level within the time constraints of a lifetime.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 10:51:07 2014 No.12322946 >>12322739 >before Anki was invented Anki is just a flashcrad program. Flashcards have been used to learn languages before either of us were born.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 10:56:03 2014 No.12322956 >>12322946 You can't really compare writing out some words on cards so you can practice on the go, to obsessively using Anki to grind thousands of words in a several year long commitment to expanding your vocabulary.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 10:57:45 2014 No.12322958 >>12322956 Yes, I can compare it. Because it's exactly the same shit. The only difference is the scale in the amount of words, the process in which you learn and study them is the same.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 11:16:00 2014 No.12322985 >>12322958 Scale is a pretty fucking important difference. I've never heard of anyone using flashcards to learn tens of thousands of words. It would be utterly bizarre.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 11:18:59 2014 No.12322988

>>12322985
>I've never heard of anyone using flashcards
How about that, you actually did.
It's called fucking Anki.
The only reason people don't do it with physical card is because it would be a mess to maintain and order, not to mention it would take a lot of space and you wouldn't be able to keep track of what you are supposed to review today when you have that many.
The program only brings advantages to people who want to go even further with flashcards, a method that works perfectly for rote memorization.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 16:11:06 2014 No.12323637 >>12322985 Wait you mean you can do thousands of calculations per second? I don't believe you. It takes me an entire minute to do one calculation. I don't care about your stupid "computer", it sounds like blasphemy to me.

>>	looking for senpai Sun Aug 3 16:12:21 2014 No.12323643 File: 1.24 MB, 303x307, 1391795097420.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] anyone decent with their 日本語 want to give me your email? I want to ask questions about japanese occasionally, but I won't bother you too much I promise.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:14:59 2014 No.12323888
File: 37 KB, 348x342, 1393650121550.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Is there a chart somewhere that I could print out that has all the different conjugations ? I'm having trouble remembering all the differences for the different forms and levels of politeness, and the differences between u and ru verbs, so having a nice chart on my wall would be really helpful.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:25:26 2014 No.12323922 >>12323888 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugation It's on wikipedia. Click the picture on the right.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:31:34 2014 No.12323950 >>12323888 dude i just saw you on the recent images on 4Chan's front page haha

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:36:49 2014 No.12323967

Today I finished an N5 vocab course I was working on on Memrise, so feeling pretty good about getting that done. It was taking up a good amount of time each day, so I'm glad I can push that energy elsewhere now. I've been stalled around chapter 18 or so of RTK 1 for a while now, so I think I'll channel my time there for the time being and see how that works out. It's daunting, but I've been putting off working on it for far too long. Oh, and I'm gonna try to get back to daily grammar lessons, too. Almost have enough of a foundation to start digging through some manga, which I'm ecstatic for.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:51:22 2014 No.12324005 >>12323888 I never bothered formally learning that. I just picked it up through practice. I think it better for it to become intuitive naturally, than to learn a set of rules that must be recalled every time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:51:46 2014 No.12324008 File: 94 KB, 640x400, 1394875388156.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12323922 Thanks, although I have no idea how to read that chart.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 17:56:17 2014 No.12324022

>>12324005
It's just confusing due to the lack of spaces between words in japanese, when you don't know the conjugations, it can be hard to tell if it's part of the verb or a different word. Plus if you don't know them, how do you get the nuances each conjugation would bring ? Just by looking it up every time, and eventually you remembered it ?

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:03:49 2014 No.12324050

>>12324022
Not that guy, but I got comfortable with the grammar by just going through Tae Kim's grammar guide and taking notes and putting up the conjugation rules in an organized manner for quick future reference.

I actually never needed to reference it that much, because just going through it like that had significantly improved my understanding, which I could then build on through reading.

Using rikaichan also helps, since it can look up most common conjugations.

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:04:44 2014 No.12324053

>>12324022

I looked it up using this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugation

Until I no longer needed to.

There's not that much to learn for this.

Use rikaichan, if you're not already, as you will be able to highlight words with it, if you are unsure of where it ends.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:09:47 2014 No.12324063 >>12323888 Can you remove the background but leave the question mark?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:10:21 2014 No.12324066 >>12324008 http://ww8.tiki.ne.jp/~tmath/language/jpverbs/notes.htm http://ww8.tiki.ne.jp/~tmath/language/jpverbs/index.htm

Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:14:09 2014 No.12324074
File: 85 KB, 640x400, 1394875388156.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>12324050
>>12324053
I have rikaikun since I use chrome, it's basically the same, right ? Can't highlight stuff in images or manga, though.
I did start making my own chart when reading tae kim but then it started adding a bunch of other stuff so it got messy and I got rid of it. I'll probably go and remake it now, then.
>>12324063
There was no question mark for me to leave in.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:21:17 2014 No.12324096 >>12323967 Do you have a blog somewhere where I can stay up to date on your trivial studying where you pretend like the absolute minimal effort is actually hard work?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:21:53 2014 No.12324097 >>12324096 Yes

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:22:33 2014 No.12324098 >>12324097 link plz...... @_@

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:26:58 2014 No.12324116 I finished Tae Kim's regular and essential grammar, all whilst learning the kanji I came across with Anki. Would now be a good time to start trying to read stuff?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:31:01 2014 No.12324126 >>12324116 Do you have a blog too? I want to start a collection of blogs of people who started learning Japanese in the last week who love posting updates about their progress.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:33:24 2014 No.12324133 >>12324116 You should start consumption of raw media immediately.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:35:19 2014 No.12324141 >>12324126 I do have a blog, it's called 4chan.org/jp

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 3 18:36:52 2014 No.12324146 >>12324116 http://www.zeppan.com/ No time like the present.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 02:41:47 2014 No.12325335 >>12324146 If you make an account there, can you read things for free?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 04:08:46 2014 No.12325594 I completed 4th year Japanese a few years ago. Is studying for N3-1 the best way to resume learning? I tried playing Ace Attorney 5 on my JP 3DS but it's a pain in the ass without machine assisted help or furigana.

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 04:48:36 2014 No.12325753

>>12325594
What is "4th year Japanese"? Is that some sort of class? You might just be better off starting from zero because you probably learned next to nothing anyway. I mean 4 years and you can't read a video game? Still don't know everything covered in N3?

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 04:55:05 2014 No.12325797

>>12325753
The years you've been studying don't mean shit. It could be a class he's been going to once a week without studying actively on the side.

I started 6 years ago, and someone who has been actively studying every day for 1-2 years could easily have caught up with me by now. I try to not get depressed over that, but sometimes it's hard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 05:44:19 2014 No.12326133 >>12325753 Four years of university five days a week. I double majored in Chinese and Japanese. I probably did know all of N3 back then but I'm sure I forgot a bunch.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 07:28:17 2014 No.12326626 >>12325797 I'm in a similar situation, only I'm approaching 9 years. Not even at primary school level, yet. It's the one thing I have any demonstrable skill what-so-ever in, so that keeps me going.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 13:15:39 2014 No.12327307 >>12324141 please do not misuse the spoiler function.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 16:40:52 2014 No.12327823 >>12326626 Ugh, a load of cards I haven't seen in months just came up and I knew none of them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:33:36 2014 No.12327950 File: 1.79 MB, 2097x2033, 1406486966479.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >tfw anki reps can't teach me grammar Why does life have to be so needlessly hard.....

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:36:18 2014 No.12327959 >>12327950 there is an anki deck for grammar tho.... its just entries ripped out of the dictionary of japanese grammar series

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:37:50 2014 No.12327967

>>12327959
That looks incredibly stupid. If you want to learn grammar just read a guide and expose yourself to the language. I can understand vocabulary and kanji, but memorizing grammar definitions looks retarded. Exercises are useless too since basically trying to read things in japanese is basically an exercise already.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:42:00 2014 No.12327982 File: 13 KB, 565x473, iodnjaknda.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12327967 This one? It makes no sense if you don't read the book first. Plus the cards can easily be ahead or behind of where you are in the text.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:42:10 2014 No.12327983 >>12327967 It depends what they define as grammar. Whether they means how the language functions, which is simple, or literally every single possible particle, auxiliary, etc. which I consider to fall under vocabulary.

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:46:44 2014 No.12327998

>>12322712
Its called "reading vocabulary"

Havent you noticed when you read things a word pops up that makes sense in the sentence but if someone asked you to define it precisely, you wouldnt be quite sure?
When words cross from this fuzzy state into a place where you are comfortable using in speech, then it is is a step towards fluency.
..or at least decent speaking ability

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 17:49:20 2014 No.12328010

>>12327983
I don't think grammar is that much of an umbrella term. Both of your definitions are still inside grammar, and the only way to ACTUALLY learn broader particles is by reading things or listening to people. The simple ones should be easy to figure out, but others you can't just get away by memorizing their definitions.

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 21:29:32 2014 No.12328756

>>12327950
what >>12327959 said

also you could just get decks with sentences and with enough practice/memorization, grammar patterns will be easier to recognize. i'm not saying this is the most precise way to learn grammar, but it will at least expose you to more

jesus i still fail at intransitive/transitive... why must the japanese be so damn passive.
本を見つかった　I found my book! (Or rather it found itself, since, you know, I can't implicate myself or others in direct speech, being part of this passive humble community)

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 21:39:24 2014 No.12328795

>>12324022
Hey I felt like that too awhile ago. Just keep getting exposure and you will start to see where one word ends and one finished

And for anyone else reading this, I think one good place to look for structured grammar lessons is JLPT review sites... Once upon a time I didn't know random hiragana hanging off verb stems were important grammar points...

Anonymous Mon Aug 4 21:45:48 2014 No.12328829
File: 631 KB, 555x800, 00.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>12324053
>>12324050
you guys do know, right? that these aren't the only 'conjugations'

there are many more verb endings and verb combinations which add whole new meanings to verbs?
「はず」とか「ずに」とか「がち」

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 4 23:44:49 2014 No.12329284 File: 87 KB, 634x385, tuskete.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I just downloaded capture2text. I made sure the hotkey is set to windows+q but nothing happens when I try to highlight.

Anonymous Tue Aug 5 02:49:10 2014 No.12329742

>>12328829
you guys do know, right? that you are really new and have no idea what you're 'talking about'?

はず isn't a conjugation, it's a noun. ずに isn't a conjugation, it's just ず, but you're right it isn't on there. However the conjugation to get to that form is. がち isn't a conjugation, it's just a suffix.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 5 07:54:34 2014 No.12330295 File: 323 KB, 595x842, preview001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12323888 Something like this? I have the pdf for all the cheat sheets somewhere in my hard drive.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 5 11:47:34 2014 No.12330801 >>12329742 Close enough bitch

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 5 12:09:16 2014 No.12330848 >>12329742 You could have mentioned ず is an auxiliary verb. It'd be more clarifying for anon who probably learned basic grammar through Tae Kim and never really bothered researching actual grammar at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 5 19:34:29 2014 No.12332840 how many new words do you guys have per day on anki??

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 5 20:19:47 2014 No.12333012 >>12332840 50-100 depending on how much I read. 50 is a minimum though, if I don't even get that many I supplement from a word list.

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/jp/ - Otaku Culture