Nasuverse magic

[Anonymous No.]

So, the concept of nasuverse magic is something along the lines "The one with a more solid concept wins over the not so solid magic" But has there ever been any examples of this?

[Anonymous No.]

Nasuverse a shit.
It spends like five paragraphs telling you about how undodgable some powerful hot stuff is and then they dodge it like nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

lol

[Anonymous No.]

Please don't take Type-Moon games and shit seriously.

[Anonymous No.]

The concept of nasuverse magic is "I will give it fake rules to instill a sense of mundanity in the reader, then break them to amaze him!"
and he does it every single fucking time since fifteen years. I sincerely donàt know what is there left to discuss about typemoon when its clear to everyone at this point how and why they do their things.

[Anonymous No.]

There are plenty of examples of that in F/SN, go read it.

[Anonymous No.]

Magic exists.

The "solid concept" is just another form of magic.

You cannot win against magic without magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023705
Magic must defeat magic

[Anonymous No.]

Lance of sure hit, shield of no loss - Fate/Stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works Day 14

Gae Bolga's concept of "must always strike the target" overwhelms and shatters Rho Aias's concept of "never be penetrated by a thrown projectile"

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023695

But nobody ever really "breaks" the rules except for Fake Assassin.

Reality Marbles are esoteric and broken, but within the rules (and partly make their own rules). Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are absurdly rare and hideously broken, but still within the rules. Many characters attempt to circumvent the rules in one way or another, but the only people who are outside of them are Sorcerers, and the only person who actually, fundamentally breaks them is the nameless swordsman dubbed Sasaki Kojirou.

[Anonymous No.]

I genuinely cannot stand any universe that tries to explain magic. It is the same reason that the concept of midichlorians is so reviled by old school Star Wars fans. Magic is enjoyable because it is magic. Trying to explain it and create a convoluted series of rules and mechanics ruins the intrinsic nature of what it is. "A wave of the hand" is appropriate enough. Anything more, and you'd be better off sticking to science fiction.

When creating power levels, I'd much rather it be based on vague descriptions and assumptions:

"This wizard is 900 years old and has completely mastered the elements."
"This young mage has a strangely strong bond to the spirit realm, as such he can commune with the dead on a level greater than most other mages."

These types of descriptions are suitable enough to create a suspension of disbelief.

The Nasuverse, on the other hand, tries way too hard and has created such an absurdly convoluted explanation and exceptions to everything, as if in a desperate attempt to make them appear more legitimate.

The bottom line is: they started out as porn games. The plots and characters were appealing enough to stand on their own. Rather than trying to obfuscate this fact through convoluted explanations, I wish they'd just stick to the big, dumb, action, modern fantasy elements that are enjoyable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023786

Well I hate universes that wave off magic as dreams and fluffy rainbows and still try to have logic to their story.
Magic that can do some stuff but can't do some other stuff for no reason is just annoying. When your powersource is bullshit, there's no possibility to suspend your disbelief.

No series with bullshit magic is interesting because of its magical system. Go back to Harry Potter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023790
>>12023781
stop spraying shit from your mouth, >>12023786
is right
I'm sincerely far beyond fucking full of these "lore" discussions about a setting that pretends having arbitrary fictional mechanics that are manifestedly just a narrative escamotage to rake up people that played more videogames than read books. type moon was tolerable until it was a small company, now its just an eyesore jew incorporated without any of the even sparce talent other have, and plus its repudiating its origins by pandering to mass market, while disgustively keeping alive the old fans to suck them more money.
I shouldn't use morality in judging a company, but whatever
in shorts, fuck type moon, fuck nasu, fuck tsukihime and fsn. enough with this crap

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023806

I continue to disagree because "magic because magic" is aggravating and unfulfilling to me.
Yes, it's an arbitrary fictional mechanic, but internally consistent logic is satisfying where zig-zagging and lack of consistency only raises frustrating questions.

I literally can't ask a question about Type-Moon's magic because the answer can be logically deduced from what we know of it.

[Anonymous No.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasu_%28Zoroastrianism%29

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023786
No shit, remember that Saber is a futa fiasco? I really do feel that Nasuverse is trying too hard to make everything seem more believable until it contradicts itself at a certain point

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023955
>remember that Saber is a futa fiasco?

No, I don't. Care to extrapolate?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023969
Apparently when Saber was still "King Arthur", Merlin gave her a dick so Mordred's birth would make more sense. I simply feel they're trying too hard with this, they could've just gone with something easier like a clone or something

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023973

That's not really a fiasco any way you slice it. It's just part of the backstory.
Considering sexual magic goes back literally farther than recorded history, I have no idea how that could be "trying too hard".

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023977
It's essentially trying to cover up a plothole which is the result of making king Arthur a female. And the way they put it, it looks like a shitty excuse.

[Anonymous No.]

I have only just recently watched Fate/Zero and Kara no Kyoukai and played Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code, but I was under the impression it was something like this:

Battle Magic is Magecraft, the manipulation of Elemental Energy. If you are anything less than a Servant, Magic will kill you pretty much instantly if you don't guard it. (Exception: Fighting games because Mechanics)

To Manifest Magic, or Magecraft in this case, you must know what you want (Aoko imagines Fireworks in the casting of her magic), what the fuck you are doing (except if you are invoking the ancient art of Deus Ex Machina), and have the capacity to cast it. (Which is apparently not that terribly much is needed. Quality C and Quantity E ranked mages like Aoko can still cast a Master Spark if they go into Maximum Overdrive). Then Bam, Magic. Just hope you either attacked first or defended.

Origin related magic ignore the Magecraft Rule, acting more like Superpowers.

Origins have no directly practical combat aspect. Kiritsugu had to load his rib powder into Gun Bullets in order to weaponize his origin. Most of the servants weapons are Origin Weapons as well, such as Lancer's unhealable stabs (however, their origins are different than their weapons). The two primary ways to weaponize your origin is to either awaken to it (meaning you will be forced to abide by the domain of the origin. For example: The origin of Devour will turn you into a cannibal), or to manifest it into a Reality Marble (Shirou and GARcer are able to summon their Swords this way).

Then there is the True Magics... these likely make up the abilities of Omnipotency.

Again, I haven't played the visual novels yet, this interpretation is just me piecing together Visual Cues and Wiki Articles I remember, so I may have just completely contradicted some (probably) bullshit they made up in the Visual Novels.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023980

Literally the only possible plothole, being the only time Arthur's genitalia come up in myth.. which does indeed get completely covered up. I don't see it as an excuse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023981
Look, the less you understand the more you can enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023977
I seriously doubt medieval sexual magic could result in gaining a dick. It sounded like a desperate attempt to make sense of something that didn't have any logic in the first place

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023988

Why doubt? Magic was stronger at the age of the gods, in Type-Moon. Medieval magic was stronger than it is now. And a modern magus can make entire bodies from scratch (Touko Aozaki).
A dick would be a simple.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023981
Jesus fuck if that's what a guy who didn't play the VNs can piece together, I don't want to see someone who played every single title, including Mahoyo. It would be like a wall of text as big as Tsukihime's script.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023790
>>12023811

I'm not saying there can't be any explanation of the source and limitations to magic. But they only need be detailed enough to create the suspension of disbelief. Those three words are the key to everything in scifi and fantasy.

You can say:

"Mages are individuals who through some primeval spark have gained power of the elements. Those who train their skills and meditate to seek affinity with the elements gain greater power. Their magic may be countered by the crystals of Plot Device Mountain."

That works. That's effective. That's about as much information as you get from centuries old lore and ancient poems and epics that have survived the test of time.

I personally believe it becomes excessive to the point of taking me out of a story as it breaks the flow and charm of a setting and begins to feel like the author (or multiple, competing authors) is/are trying to crowbar in new rules and exceptions as they go along to service the objectives of the plot. Most expanded universes suffer from this.

The Nasuverse is especially guilty of this. Individually, the Tsukihime, Fate, KnK, Notes, etc stories can function well-enough. But when they begin to overlap, they are forced to reconcile their unique powers and systems with each-other in an absolute mess. To dig them out of that mess, they layer on more and more specifics with each successive introduction of stories, characters, and abilities until it just becomes a daunting mountain with very little clarity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023981

Magecraft is just magecraft. Thaumaturgy, mystical arts, whatever. It's magic for the magi. It can be used for combat or healing or anything else. All magecraft is is doing something with prana via magic circuits. It's limited to what is "possible".
Origins are not magecraft, they're an aspect of life that magecraft lets you access. Conceptual Weapons are not necessarily defined by Origin, although weaponized Origins do take the form of Conceptual Weapons. No known Noble Phantasms enact origins (except maybe Jeanne's La Pucelle), but many do use concepts.
Reality Marbles are not Origins, they are internal worlds. The Origin of a person will undoubtedly have an effect on what shape their internal world takes, but it is not the origin alone; it is the sum and breadth of their mindset. The origin is merely a defining impulse of that mindset.

True Magic/Sorcery is what magecraft isn't. It's the impossible, the stuff nobody but a Magician/Sorcerer can do. It tends to be overpowered.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023998

I truly don't see it. There aren't any conflicts or exceptions to Type-Moon between stories.
No specifics are raised, even. Every part fits, no "reconciliation". Roa was a magus in Tsukihime before we learned what magecraft is properly in Fate, but the knowledge of magecraft fits perfectly with what Roa did and therefore nothing is actually altered.

There's no separate systems, even. I can't name something that came up in one story that isn't seen at least partially in another, or any contradictions born thereof.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12024009
Did shirou actually awaken to his origin in any of the routes, or did he just sword really fucking hard without awakening?

[Anonymous No.]

>>12024220

Sword really hard.
Awakening your origin requires magic, and makes you aware of all your previous lives.
Shirou is still very close to his origin since his ego was burned away in the fire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023705
>You cannot win against magic without magic.

But isn't just being really good at a mundane skill considered magic? I thought that was the explanation for how Soujuurou Shizuki could punch Lugh Beowulf hard/well enough to defeat him despite being a normal human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12023977
The lengths TM fans will go to make sense of nonsense.

[Anonymous No.]

I think Nasu did a good job.

Magic being something that is constantly changing and evolving.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032821
add

the categorization of magic,magecraft is interesting

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032821
I've always looked at it, and this is usually the case in any work where "because magic" can come up, that magic is fucking huge and complicated. What we see in whatever series is just the tip of the iceburg. We learn some basic principles, but even then it's not all there. Anything that doesn't make sense to us just means we don't understand it well enough. Kind of like science in the real world.

Or at least that's all it takes for me to keep up my suspension of disbelief. And I don't remember too much in F/SN stretching that for me, except maybe a few moments of "God dammit, Shirou, you've lost 30 gallons of blood and you're split in half, why aren't you dead?"

But then if I had too much of a problem with stuff like that I could never watch an action movie ever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032870
He has Avalon so he won't die easy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032901
That's not always applicable, including some parts of UBW and HF. It's not really a major thing, it just makes me think "there is no way you should be able to stand, let alone fight" for a second.

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032870
You don't think that magic is huge and complicated in Fate Stay Night?

sure Nasu explains the basics for the most part but it isn't exactly straightforward and leaves room for much more

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032927
I think magic as portrayed in F/SN is more complicated than it is in a lot of works, but I still think most of the magic in that universe is left unexplained. Which I'm fine with, really. I like a certain level of detail, which is more than "magic is energy, so I made that energy into a fire ball" and less than "here's Elemental Magic 402: Advanced Mana-Fire Conversion Techniques"

[Anonymous of Alabama !.p44NyTsCo No.]

Breaking the actual rules of the Nasuverse results in the world itself attempting to kill you in order to make things right. You can end-run the rules like Souren Araya did, by making a space that didn't exist in the world and doing it there, but the moment you try to warp the rules of the world themselves, you get "corrected."

[Anonymous No.]

>>12032941
The counter force did stop Araya.