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/jp/ - Otaku Culture


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File: 852 KB, 873x866, Amane_Suzuha_SteinsGate-1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11771982 No.11771982[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Is Steins;Gate the best work of fiction regarding time travel?

>> No.11771991
File: 650 KB, 1920x1080, 3back-to-the-future-original.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11771991

No

>> No.11772014

Memespouting garbage.

>> No.11772045

>>11771991
AAAAAAH!!!! MAIKARU JEY FOKUSSSUUUU!!

>> No.11772078

Is the OP mentally retarded?

>> No.11772095

>>11772078
pls no bully

>> No.11772101

>>11771991
So average.

>> No.11772106

I think it is yeah.

>> No.11772801

No. Legacy of Kain is.

>> No.11772819

>>11771982
NOOOOO Madoka is

>> No.11772843

>>11772078
How did you came with that conclusion? And when I thought /jp/s arent retards. I guess there are some exemptions.

>> No.11772850

My favourite time travel fiction is Pokémon Mystery Dungeon.

>> No.11772855 [DELETED] 

>best work of fiction

As opposed to a work of non-fiction about time travel?

Anyway, yes sure I guess. Maybe I have my nostalgia goggles on though, I watched the movie and thought it was mediocre. I can't be bothered to play the VN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYXvo3w4_YE

>> No.11772883

Steins's Gate is more like an homage to time travel fiction which tries to include a little bit of everything from the genre.

It's the remix of a great song. ...the big-screen adaptation of a long-running comic. ...the youtube AMV of a popular anime. ...the abridged version of a famous novel.

>> No.11772904 [DELETED] 
File: 1.97 MB, 1920x1080, apathetic asuka.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11772904

The bit about the IBM engineer guy who did a time travel hoax actually being Suzuha didn't make any sense. Does she even know English?

Lots of things in Steins;Gay didn't make sense. Namely pretty much everything related to the time travel story mechanics, like the world needing to 'right itself' to avoid the past having been changed, but only sometimes like when Kurisu and Retardgirl died, and it's just all so shaky and stupid and full of made-up sci-fi.

The term 'made-up sci-fi' is disgusting. The whole point of sci-fi is that it isn't made up. Everything in a sci-fi story should be theoretically possible, which is what makes it so exciting and surreal to read. Steins;Gay had a bunch of fake sci-fi. It wasn't even a sci-fi VN, it was a fantasy VN with its own made-up magical rules, which is fine if they had framed it that way instead of trying to pass it off as something it isn't.

However it's one of my favorite VNs cause Kurisu is unbearably great, but I seem to have some weird psychological weakness for red-haired and intelligent characters so maybe that's bias. Kurisu didn't actually seem that intelligent though and seemed more like a stupid person's impression of what a hyperintelligent person seems like.

>> No.11772907 [DELETED] 

>>11772904
Reported ;)

>> No.11772911 [DELETED] 

>>11772907

I'll smack you.

>> No.11772912 [DELETED] 

>>11772911
Reported ;)

>> No.11772918 [DELETED] 

>>11772916
Reported ;)

>> No.11772916 [DELETED] 

>>11772912

*smacks you*

>> No.11772919

No, the entire thing is fucking stupid, sending a d-mail to say "lol ignore my last message, jk lol" would probably just fuck the universe up even more.

Most time travel works are fucking stupid though.

>> No.11772938 [DELETED] 

>>11772904
For a second I thought you were the Fags;Gayte guy, but as I read on I don't think so.

>>11772919
d-mail, heh.

>> No.11773037

I'd say it's up there. It gets pretty wishy washy, but I'd rather that than some boring hard sci fi epic to be honest.

It's nice to have an MC with character/development and a decent tsundere.

>> No.11773067 [DELETED] 

>>11773037

>It's nice to have an MC with character/development

How did he develop as time went on? What changed about him?

>> No.11773100

>>11773067
He turned from a mad scientisto to a PTSD beta faggot.

>> No.11773106 [DELETED] 

>>11773100

He was still the same, just the scenario he was in was different. Hard to joke around and be chunni when people around you are dying.

>> No.11773113

>>11773106
So you're saying that he developed as a character due to the circumstances that he found himself in?

>> No.11773115

no, it's shit and you should feel bad for liking shit

>> No.11773117 [DELETED] 

>>11773113

No, that's not what I said. Let's enjoy reading together:

>He was still the same, (...)

Now a quick quiz. Do you think this means:

A) He stayed the same

B) He changed

You will have to come in for finals if you miss this question.

>> No.11773121

>>11773117
He changed based on his circumstance? Oh you don't say, that what I thought happened.

>> No.11773125 [DELETED] 

>>11773121

Is this what they call 'retardo EOP'?

>> No.11773132

>>11773125
He changed. Deal with it.

>> No.11773133

>>1177312
Is this what they call "complete fucking retard with absolutely no critical thinking ability?"

>> No.11773152

I liked S;G.

It got a lot of things right, like how a story is supposed to be interesting from the start. I believe Okabe finds a body of a girl in the first chapter. If all books had a body in the first chapter, people would read more.

The story is paced and well structured. I think melting a banana in a microwave, then using it to time-travel was an early sign that the "science" didn't want anyone to take it seriously. Then it makes up its own little set of fun rules, makes them clear to the reader, then adheres to them, which is perfectly fine unless you're a hard scifi buff like >>11772904.

The jarring transition into the second act is pretty effective, and even the ending is somewhat satisfying (if you ignore the bullshit that is reading steiner)

My problem with S;G is that Okabe, Kurisu, and to a smaller extent Suzuha, basically carry the entire cast, while the rest of the shitfuckers just exist to fulfill stupid obligatory roles ("but he's a guy! lol xD")

The story would crumble if Okabe wasn't holding it up with his bare hands--even Kurisu wouldn't shine without him.

that's just like, my opinion, or something

>> No.11773176 [DELETED] 

>>11773152

>like how a story is supposed to be interesting from the start.

Pretty much every VN since 2004-2006 does this 'hook the viewer' thing.

>Then it makes up its own little set of fun rules, makes them clear to the reader, then adheres to them, which is perfectly fine unless you're a hard scifi buff like >>11772904 (You).

It makes up its own set of dumb rules, calls them science fiction, explains them 4-5 times in varying degrees of retard-language (the only reason Mayuri ever participates in these explanatory conversations is to break down their shitty convoluted rules for the more retarded members of the audience,) breaks them multiple times, and is generally as awful in this regard as anything can get.

>The jarring transition into the second act is pretty effective,

No it isn't. Something can't be jarring if everyone saw it coming. Are you jarred when you shut a door and it makes a loud slamming noise? Mayuri was a clear example of a character waiting to be tragedied on.

>and even the ending is somewhat satisfying (if you ignore the bullshit that is reading steiner)

I guess your misgivings about it are explained well by you being an EOP, so this sentence makes a lot of sense. Sure, the ending is satisfying though.

The rest of your post is just dumb EOP ramblings so I'll ignore it.

>> No.11773183

Even if you restrict fiction to just English translated visual novels, YU-NO is better.

S;G isn't bad, but I essentially agree with >>11773152 in that everyone except for Okabe was rather lackluster.

>> No.11773184
File: 143 KB, 1024x678, 1388795410382.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773184

Chrono Trigger had a bigger impact on me but I was very young when I played it. I've only read one book with time traveling, Timeline, and I liked it very much. Japs seem to like parallel worlds much more than time traveling. Works I can name are Oda Nobuna no Yabou, Girl Who Leapt Trough Time, Summer Time Machine Blues and Returner. What Japanese works are there about time traveling? Are there time travel otaku here?

>> No.11773194

>>11773176
>no fun allowed

>> No.11773245

>>11773176
>Pretty much every VN since 2004-2006 does this 'hook the viewer' thing.
As well as S;G, which goes full circle with their hook and incorporates it into the ending? You're full of shit.

>It makes up its own set of dumb rules, calls them science fiction,
S;G doesn't care about the method of time travel. All it wants is a time traveling device to deliver its plot.

There's something humorous in a bunch of people fucking around with a microwave so hard that they turn it into a time travel machine (then trying to explain it), but you obviously have such a big stick up your ass, it went completely over your head.

>No it isn't. Something can't be jarring if everyone saw it coming.
The word "jarring" doesn't imply unexpectedness. The primary meaning refers to "incongruity" or the clashing between two states.

Is English your second language?

>The rest of your post is just dumb EOP ramblings so I'll ignore it.
b-but muh hard scifi...

Lighten the fuck up.

>> No.11773243 [DELETED] 

>>11773194

WHO QUOTE

>> No.11773249

>>11773194
You're replying to the single most retarded autistic subhuman on modern /jp/, of course he's going to be a no fun allowed type of person.

>> No.11773264 [DELETED] 

>>11773245
>As well as S;G, which goes full circle with their hook and incorporates it into the ending? You're full of shit.

How does this have anything to do with what you said or I said? When you say "Let's have a race" and somebody beats you to the finish line, don't throw a tantrum and say "NO, THE FINISH LINE IS OVER HERE IN FRONT OF ME!" afterwards.

>The word "jarring" doesn't imply unexpectedness. The primary meaning refers to "incongruity" or the clashing between two states.

>Is English your second language?

I'm pretty sure you just googled 'define jarring' and grossly misunderstood the definition. You don't seem to have any capacity for English OR Japanese which is pretty sad. Are you from one of those non-human countries?

>b-but muh hard scifi...

This isn't /a/ or /v/. Please fuck off forever.

>> No.11773266

>>11772904
>The whole point of sci-fi is that it isn't made up.

Have you ever read an actual, hard science fiction novel?

It's basically reading an autistic engineer's stream of consciousness for 500 pages or so, it's awful.

Learn to suspend disbelief or just stop hanging out in places where we enjoy fictional media full stop, you fucking normie.

>> No.11773272 [DELETED] 

>>11773266

>It's basically reading an autistic engineer's stream of consciousness for 500 pages or so, it's awful.

I guess if you're a normal, maybe? I can't sympathize,

Are you gonna start raving about 'THE FUCKEN FEDORA WEARERS' and pedophiles soon too?

>> No.11773273
File: 19 KB, 300x447, Twelve_monkeysmp[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773273

Best work of fiction regarding time travel

>> No.11773282
File: 196 KB, 800x1140, 12monkeys_cover_1107393121.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773282

I liked it, I found Okabe really winning as a character. He's very sympathetic.

But I'd be hard pressed to prefer it to Twelve Monkeys.

Now Chaos;Head, that's shit. Unlikable otaku protagonists pls fuck off.

>> No.11773284

>>11773176
Why is Asuka spammer pretending he speaks Japanese now?

>> No.11773289 [DELETED] 

>>11773284

What's up with the projection? Not everyone cares as little about their hobbies as you do.

Why are you even still here instead of on /v/? You are not in good company.

>> No.11773287

>>11773284
Just ignore the subhuman.

>> No.11773292

>>11773272
Yeah, who cares about plot, character development and things like that when you can describe the load-bearing methods an industrial lift employs for 2000 words?

The closest thing to hard science fiction with a decent plot is KSR's Mars Trilogy, and that's saying something.

>> No.11773297 [DELETED] 

>>11773292

I don't think anyone cares about the opinions of probably the most normal person on the board.

>> No.11773301

>>11773184

Girl Who Leapt Through Time is about time travel.

>> No.11773304

>>11773272

What are you talking about? The only people who prefer hard sci-fi are normies at college taking engineering and bragging to everyone else about how big their starting salary is going to be. That's normie behavior through and through.

>> No.11773313
File: 22 KB, 192x192, xD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773313

El Psy Congroo

>> No.11773318 [DELETED] 

>>11773304

>The only people who prefer hard sci-fi are normies at college taking engineering and bragging to everyone else about how big their starting salary is going to be.

No?

>> No.11773322

>>11773264
>How does this have anything to do with what you said or I said?
Sorry, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought your point was stronger than it actually was.

I'll have your counterexample of a single VN that doesn't start well to prove your idiotic sweeping claim wrong, ready for you right about when I start giving a shit.

>I'm pretty sure you just googled 'define jarring' and grossly misunderstood the definition.
It doesn't change the fact that I'm correct, and you're illiterate. Problem?

>non-human countries
lel

>> No.11773328 [DELETED] 

>>11773322

What is this literal gibberish? Are you just pissing and vomiting all over yourself from how angry you are about being wrong?

>> No.11773335

>>11773322
>not a single word about Steins;gate in this entire post

Just stop. You're not going to get anywhere.

>> No.11773336 [DELETED] 

I've never seen an offboarder own themself this hard before. It's kind of jarring!

>> No.11773358

>>11773313
post the animated one
you the one

>> No.11773361

Is it bad that I was more tempted to go for Ruka's ending than Feyris'?

Dat true ending credits music still fucks me up. Damn.

>> No.11773378 [DELETED] 
File: 15 KB, 800x600, sigh......png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773378

>>11773361

dat fele when ur playing katawa shojo but you're sad cause haneko is all alone :(

>> No.11773381
File: 446 KB, 1920x1080, lajetee.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773381

>>11773273
>>11773282

The original is better

>> No.11773388 [DELETED] 

Where do all the crossboarders come from lately? Is it the idol threads or something? Did someone link /jp/ on another board?

>> No.11773389

>>11773378
You can joke Anon, but

2000 and counting

>> No.11773399

>>11773388
I come for your Asuka threads

>> No.11773403

>>11773381
I'll watch it tomorrow

>> No.11773404

>>11773388
It's like there's some kind of link at the top of the page that lets you go to /jp/ from any board!

oh wait

>> No.11773409

>>11773404
>lately

>> No.11773415

>>11773381
Never seen it. I liked Bruce Willis in the more modern version though, he seems to have a thing for playing pitiable characters, or characters who find themselves in pitiable situations. In Looper he actually managed to be more sympathetic than Gordon-Levitt's character.

But back on tangential topic. I much preferred Steins;Gate to Chaos;Head because I'm increasingly finding the really entitled, obnoxious kind of otaku characters annoying.

>> No.11773425

>>11773389
How utterly pitiful.

>> No.11773427

>>11773415
> really entitled, obnoxious kind of otaku characters annoying.
is this more common than I'm aware of?

More VNs seem to me to have "all around well-rounded and adjusted self-insert who has few friends yet is surrounded by secretly adoring women"

I didn't read C;H, but I think there's a good way to use that kind of protagonist, if C;H didn't do it well.

>> No.11773429 [DELETED] 

>>11773415

>I'm increasingly finding the really entitled, obnoxious kind of otaku characters annoying.

It must be hard becoming even more normal than you already are.

>> No.11773439

YU-NO is

>> No.11773437

>>11773427
I think I know what you're referring to. There's certainly likable characters within that archetype, but the ones who treat people around them like shit I find really hard to empathize with.

>> No.11773445

>>11773429
But Takumi is a quasi-normie by any reasonable definition. He initially has people interested in his welfare and who make a huge effort for him.

>> No.11773453 [DELETED] 

>>11773388
Someone post that image from that live stream with the "it's like the new /b/" text.

>> No.11773462 [DELETED] 

>>11773453

Oh man, that day was great.

>> No.11773537 [DELETED] 
File: 233 KB, 700x394, 9-28-2013.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11773537

>>11773453
Some nobody: Um, what's your favorite board?
[audience yells out boards as moot ponders]
moot: I would have to go with /jp/.
[audience goes apeshit]
moot: Because- and here is why, I said this last night and I- and I hope this becomes.. uh so yeah I think it's true, but /jp/ is like weaponized /a/.
[moot and the audience chuckle]
moot: It is like when we used to hear, 5 years ago, about, you know, terrorism and weaponized anthrax. Like, it is THAT! But on 4chan. It is like.. this.. like this militant version of /a/; and again I'm sure they're all like seething right now and I'm not a- you know I- I- believe me I'm a truNEET at heart and- and it's really paining me to be here in public right now. But, uh.. uh.. /jp/'s actually reall- a fun board, I- I've been browsing it more recently.
[moot chuckles]
moot: I'm sure they all think I'm like- you know 20 different anons right now and...
[blah blah blah]
moot: I- I don't have a favorite board, it's certainly not /q/!
[goes on about the failure that was /q/]
moot: I'm not gonna say that it's the truth, but I don't want to ruin the board. There are a few boards that are actually great, because nobody uses them and, in fact, that's the case with most boards; the larger the board, the crappier it is. So, uh.. whatever my favorite board is please don't use it because then you'll ruin it- in fact! Everybody should go use /jp/, it's a really great board, and..
[audience frantically cheers]
moot: It's really- just like- like one of the best boards I've ever found! It's- like- kinda like the new /b/.
[moot and the audience laugh maniacally and then some weeb nerd from /a/ asks him a question about anime while /jp/ gets raided]

>> No.11773624 [DELETED] 

>>11773537
who WEAPONIZED here?

>> No.11773748 [DELETED] 

>>11773537
Where were you when it happened?

>> No.11773776 [DELETED] 

>>11773748
Making doge threads on jaypee, of course

>> No.11773782 [DELETED] 

>>11773537
so fucking epic

feel when milky chan was at that con

>> No.11774036

>>11772801
this.

>> No.11774317

>>11773445
just because you look ok or have decent looks has nothing too do with your brain. taku is really fucked up.

>> No.11774398
File: 50 KB, 640x360, 1388820643759.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11774398

How about worst works of fiction regarding time travel?

My vote is Looper

>> No.11775125
File: 172 KB, 681x564, Urushibara-Ruka.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775125

Is there a better rukako figurine out there than this big-hipped abomination

>> No.11775131
File: 25 KB, 495x440, primerposter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775131

You guys obviously haven't seen Primer.

>> No.11775139
File: 13 KB, 167x277, 1379791452690.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775139

stories involving time traveling are pretty much all inconsistent and totally bullshit storywise

>> No.11775138

>>11775131
Damn, I just saw this thread and I was about to say that. Primer is by far the best work of fiction regarding time travel out of those that I've watched/read, it beats out everything else by a mile. The first time I saw it I immediately re-watched it, then re-watched it again, it was that interesting to think about. If you haven't seen it you really should, you're missing out.

>> No.11775142

>>11775139
...except for Primer.

>> No.11775171

>>11775125
I wish to know the answer to this as well.

>> No.11775199

>>11775138
Am I correct to understand that it only fantasizes the possible consequences of time travel, and does not give any hypotheses why it would ever be possible?

>> No.11775237

Goddamn, you all need to read some RAH. Specifically "By His Bootstraps" and "All You Zombies".

>> No.11775520

>>11775131
>>11775138
Four engineers invent a time machine by accident. Two of the guys decide to use the machine to go back in time to make money on the stock market. But as the dangers of time traveling become more apparent, they decide to quit their endeavors and make a final trip back to prevent the machine from ever being deployed.

The film is praised for being made on practically no budget and for the use of a deliberately obfuscated plot. Both ruining any entertainment value the film may have provided had this not been the case. Apart from the tedious framing and bad lighting, the sound recording was so poor one might not even have noticed the rambling, arcane script. To make matters worse no professional actors were hired making it impossible to take any of it seriously as characters were constantly mumbling over each other's lines. Sub plots are left unresolved almost as a rule and side characters just pop in and out of existence like electrons at the LHC. There is absolutely nothing about this movie that warrants praise of any kind. There's a reason why films have higher budgets than what was put on the table to create this nonsense.

>> No.11775548

>>11775520
I hated the movie too but at least take the effort to write your own review.

>> No.11775551

>>11775548
It is my own review dipshit.

>> No.11775565

>>11775551
Didn't I just see you pass through here a minute ago???

>> No.11775575

>>11775565
What do you mean?
Are you giving me shit for watching western movies?

>> No.11775578
File: 520 KB, 873x1309, hyperion-filmul.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775578

You are not even trying.

Hyperion Cantos is the best.
It was an orgasmic ride through whole series.
Shrike is a total fucking badass.

>> No.11775586

>>11775578
What are you on about? It doesn't have any time travel.

>> No.11775592
File: 53 KB, 562x437, 312.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775592

>>11775586
>What are you on about? It doesn't have any time travel.

>> No.11775597

I'm starting to get weary of pretty much everything having time travel or altenative universe bullshit. Whether it's in books, movies or VNs.

>> No.11775601

BEEP BEEP JANNY INSTEAD OF DELETING GOOD THREADS YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK THIS ONE OUT UR WELCOME

>> No.11775603

>>11775592
I'm serious.

>> No.11775615
File: 1.19 MB, 240x240, 1382015468724.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775615

>>11775603
Aenea – Aenea, often described as a messiah, is a young female who is the daughter of a human, Brawne Lamia, and an artificial intelligence combined with a human body (cybrid). As a child she travels two hundred years through time by entering the Time Tomb called the Sphinx, becoming a teacher (the one who teaches) and a semi-religious figure. She becomes a Martyr and catalyst for the destruction of the current form of Catholicism and the widespread rebellion again the parasite cruciform.

Shrike is a time traveler as well.
Moneta as well.

>> No.11775640

>>11775615
Just because characters are from the past/future doesn't mean the story is about time travel. It isn't.

I'll give you the Time Tombs, but even those are largely irrelevant apart from the first book.

>> No.11775649
File: 50 KB, 363x507, 1370891351995.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775649

>>11775640
>irrelevant
>characters from the past - future are changing the current timeline and next future as well

>> No.11775659

>>11775649
Are you retarded by any chance? They do everything in the present and are always in the present. There's no going back and forth to change events.

Not time travel.

>> No.11775675
File: 65 KB, 1280x720, 1370991989499.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11775675

>>11775659
The only one who's retarded here is you, sonny.

You acted like a retard from start without even knowing about any time travel in Hyperion because you probably didn't even notice it with while reading and trying to understand anything in the books with your tiny ape brain, then you started to pathetically backpedaling and after getting trashed again you used glorious pleb-tier ad hominem attack to somehow save your acne face in the internet.

The simple fact is: time-travel is a very important thing in Hyperion Cantos and it's one of the most deciding things in the whole story because of Shrike and Aenea.

Now go the fuck out and read your Naruto because the actual science fiction is not for your underdeveloped ape brain.

>> No.11775688

>>11775675
>The simple fact is: time-travel is a very important thing in Hyperion Cantos and it's one of the most deciding things in the whole story because of Shrike and Aenea.
Is this really your argument?
That's like saying f/sn is about time travel because Archer is from a future timeline.

>> No.11775798

>>11775688
>That's like saying f/sn is about time travel because Archer is from a future timeline.

Future, alternate timeline.

>> No.11775812

>>11775798
OK?

>> No.11776713
File: 673 KB, 1200x1697, BTTF SG.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11776713

>>11772045
GUREITTO SUKOTTO!

>> No.11776782 [DELETED] 

I got to the end of tuturu~ route on my own but the game ended and i would;ve had to look up a route map and replay most of the game over to get the true end

Why.

>> No.11776788

I got to the end of tuturu~ route on my own but the game ended and i would;ve had to look up a route map and replay most of the game over to get the true end

Its been a year now. I've deleted it since then, but I have this nagging feeling that I must play the true end. Why. WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

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