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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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File: 1 KB, 1840x760, blue = ship, red = bullets.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11587643 No.11587643 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /jp/, which of these shmups is more difficult?

>> No.11587652

>>11587643
I imagine it's the one with the larger blue square.

>> No.11587659

>>11587652
Sorry Anon, but 50% of the screen is red squares in both cases, so you have a 1 in 2 chance of getting hit in both. What a fool you are!

>> No.11587660 [DELETED] 

This will probably be deleted.

>> No.11587664

Even if those bullets are completely motionless, the left one has pretty much 0 room for error. I'd imagine it being extremely annoying to play.

>> No.11587669

>>11587659
I figure having a smaller square gives you more time to move around.

>> No.11587676

>>11587643
left.

>> No.11587684

Why did Janjan delete the Silver Surfer thread? Are we seriously not allowed to discuss anything here?

>> No.11587687

You can't scale the bullets but not scale the hitbox, that's not how it works.

>> No.11587687,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>11587660
Correct!

>> No.11587687,2 [INTERNAL] 

>>11587660
>>11587687,1
Ha.

>> No.11587710

The argument was that if your hitbox is 1 pixel and half the pixels are bullets, then you have a 1 in 2 chance of hitting a bullet.

If your hitbox size changes, of course it's not 1 in 2 anymore, but it's not 1 in 135700 like you were saying either.

>> No.11587723

I like those big bullets with the small hitboxes in DOJ

>> No.11587740

>>11587710
The hitbox didn't change. Left is a game with an 8x6 resolution, right is a game with a 16*12 resolution. Feel free to cut those bullets into fourths and shuffle them around if you want to.

In both cases, bullets take up 50% of the screen and the hitbox is 1 pixel.

According to the previous thread, in both cases the game should have the same level of difficulty, because you have a 1 in 2 chance of being where a bullet is.

>> No.11587749

>>11587740
Both of those are 8x6 except one has a 1 pixel hitbox for the ship and the other one is a fourth of a pixel. Please stop trolling.

>> No.11587749,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>11587687,1
Sup jannie.

>> No.11587754 [DELETED] 

>>11587740
Your ship moves on a grid. Assuming the same movement resolution in both cases, and filling in the inaccessible squares because they're stupid and you'll never get there:

On the left, you have fifteen choices of X-coordinate, and eleven choices of Y-coordinate, so there's 165 spaces your ship could be. Not counting the completely inaccessible squares, there are twenty-seven "live spots." So if you threw the ship onto the screen at random, there's a 84% you die.

On the right, you have sixteen choices of X-coordinate and twelve choices of Y-coordinate, so there's 192 spaces you could be, but 56 live spots. So if you throw the ship onto the screen at random, there's only a 71% chance you die.

>> No.11587772

The percentage of the screen covered by bullets divided by the size of the screen is not the chance that you get hit unless you choose your ship's location completely at random every frame.

>> No.11587776
File: 772 B, 960x760, smaller.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11587776

>>11587749
Pretend those bullets are twice the size, or cut them into fourths and rearrange them however you like. I just didn't want someone to call shenanigans by saying the patterns were different. In both cases you have 50% of the screen covered in bullets. The right bullets could be bigger, or they could be arranged in 2x2 groups for some reason. Use your imagination.

>>11587754
Well I'm glad we've moved on beyond "it's always 1 in 2".


In this here example, the resolution is now 32x24, and it's even easier. So the game is definitely getting less difficult with a greater resolution when the hitbox remains a single pixel.
Now, in the first example, you have 24 free pixels. There is a 1 in 24 chance your ship is in a free pixel.
In the second example, you have 96 free pixels. There is a 1 in 96 chance your ship is in a free pixel.
In this latest example, you have 384 free pixels. There is a 1 in 384 chance your ship is in a free pixel.

The game gets exponentially easier. So back to my original point, when you have a real CAVE game with a single-pixel hitbox on a high resolution display, you have a very small chance of getting hit (something like 1 in 150,000).

>> No.11587781

>>11587643
Assuming this is a grid-game, neither are very difficult because the left one would have you only move two spaces to the left, and the right one would have you move four.

>> No.11587794
File: 7 KB, 1840x760, fieldavsffieldb.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11587794

I drop you on a random point in the right field

what are the chances I drop you on a bullet

>> No.11587803

You can't just consider 'number of pixel positions on the screen that are safe'. The regularity and predictability of bullet motion is the main thing. If the bullets always travel in clumps, there are fewer objects the player has to predict movements for, and dodging becomes easier as a result.

>> No.11587808

1 in 2?

>> No.11587845

Which one has the bullshit musical notes?

>> No.11587851

>>11587776
Your examples are nonsensical. If you scale the resolution then you also need to scale the bullets (and obviously also the hitbox). You can't just make the screen larger, keep the hitbox at 1 pixel and keep the bullets their old size. No scaling ever works that way. If half the screen is bullets in 640x480 then it'll still be half bullets in 1980x1020 and your hitbox will have been scaled proportionately too.

>> No.11587876

>>11587845
The one hiding behind a curving laser.

>>11587803
This, although I guess if the bullets were just moving straight down, you're instantly dead on the left and dead after the first frame on the right.

>> No.11587878

>>11587851
But the gimmick is that some CAVE games have a 1 pixel hitbox, regardless of resolution. I politely explained that therefore your chances of getting hit are very slim on a high resolution display, but Crazy Anon claims it will always be 1 in 2 and tries to back up his argument with straw men like >>11587794

>> No.11587882

>>11587878
Again, nonsense. No scaling has ever worked or will ever work that way.

>> No.11587883

>>11587876
>I guess if the bullets were just moving straight down, you're instantly dead on the left and dead after the first frame on the right.

Not necessarily. You'd be a terrible programmer if you kept track of bullets' positions as pixels on a screen. Those bullets might move at less than 1 pixel per frame. So internally it's at position 5.18371... but it's rendered on-screen (after the fact) as at position 5.

>> No.11587891

>>11587882
But the whole thing isn't being scaled. The bullets are bigger, the ship might even be bigger, but the hitbox is still 1 pixel. That's the gimmick, and I'm saying it's imbalanced to the point where your chances of getting hit on a modern arcade/computer display are very slim.

>> No.11587913

>>11587878
how is it a strawman though

is half the screen bullets? if I drop you on any random point on this screen is it a 1/2 chance to fall on a bullet? if your hitbox is a 60th of a pixel, is it still a 1/2 chance to spawn on a bullet?

>> No.11587932

>>11587883
>Those bullets might move at less than 1 pixel per frame. So internally it's at position 5.18371... but it's rendered on-screen (after the fact) as at position 5.
Okay well suppose they moved at even 1 pixel per 4 frames, you're guaranteed fucked on the left. You can extend your suffering by holding still but whats the point.

>> No.11587940

>>11587932
What's diagonal movement?

>> No.11587941 [DELETED] 

>>11587913
please respond :)

>> No.11587948

>>11587913
I'm not denying that 50% of the screen is bullets. In fact that's one of prerequisites for my argument.

If what you're saying actually counters my argument, then you are saying one of two things:
1. 50% of the screen isn't bullets.
2. Hitbox size doesn't matter.

We've both agreed on 1, so you must think 2. "It's a 1 in 2 chance in every situation, even if the hitbox is the size of my dick!"
Obviously this isn't the case, as I have already proven.

So you are wrong, and you're just setting up a straw man. "Well abortion might be unethical, but is this cow black and white? No no, just tell me, is the cow black and white? Please respond :)"

>> No.11587968

>>11587948
My example proves that 2 is true though.

> if I drop you on any random point on this screen is it a 1/2 chance to fall on a bullet? if your hitbox is a 60th of a pixel, is it still a 1/2 chance to spawn on a bullet?

>> No.11587973

>>11587940
What, upward? You're on the bottom of the screen, where the fuck do you think you're going?

>> No.11588013
File: 24 KB, 290x198, ss (2013-11-03 at 11.48.15).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11588013

The bullet is a big disk, but is hitbox is only the non white content of this disk. I was in two bullets but I wasn't in their hitbox so I through them and didn't died.

Argument #2 "Hitbox size doesn't matter." is invalid when shmups are considering that a bullets is defined by its hitbox and not his graphics.

>> No.11588057

Best troll in recent memory.

>> No.11588059

>>11588057
The trick is to bring in mathematics or logic, then corner nerds into saying things that aren't true.

>> No.11588063

Nobody has even brought bullet speed up? Right screen could have much faster moving bullets. It's impossible to say with these given details.

>> No.11588069

>>11588063
I'd say something about how faster bullets are more likely to skip over the ship or hit either side of it (95% of the screen!) but I'll save that for another time.

>> No.11588073

>>11587643
Who gives a fuck?

I'd rather know which one is more fun.

>> No.11588076

>>11588073
Fun = challenge in STGs

>> No.11588078

>>11588076
If you have autism.

>> No.11588082

>>11588078
I read the Wikipedia article and I think I do.

>> No.11588132

>>11587740
>The hitbox didn't change.
You dint state this in the op

>> No.11588196

>>11587891
A game with 50 radius bullets and 1 pixel hitbox is effectively the same as a game with 25 radius bullets and 25 radius hitbox. Nobody actually cares.

>> No.11588207

>>11588013
that's not the argument at all though

the argument is that it's a 1 in 2 chance, nothing else

>> No.11588212

>>11587643
Depends, this is not specific enough. If I was to drop you in a random place, what is the granularity? If it's the same as the hitbox then they're identical. If they're smaller, the left one will be harder because you cannot be spawned in places where you are partially or completely overlapping a bullet.

>> No.11588218

If you defining dying as having any of the pixels of your hitbox being on a red space, then a larger hitbox would mean having to check more pixel, therefore making your chances of getting killed increase.

>> No.11588224

>>11588207

that's really stupid

>> No.11588305

>>11587659
That's correct, assuming you spawn in a random place of the screen, that neither you or the bullets will move, and that your hitbox is exactly 1 (one) pixel wide and tall.

>> No.11589622
File: 1.86 MB, 2954x2446, russian MLG.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11589622

>>11588076
don't be silly

>> No.11589636

>>11589622
Slav lyfe

>> No.11589661

>>11589622
That disgusting Euronigger is playing Riki.
I bet he fed the entire goddamned game too.

>> No.11590884

If death caused by SPAWNING on top of a bullet is even an issue, you've fucked something the HELL up.
You shouldn't be able to spawn directly on bullets. How could anyone expect you to play under such randomized bullshit?

>> No.11591727

>>11590884
It has to be that way. Otherwise, we'd have to include player skill and the equations would become too complex.

>> No.11591902

>>11591727
What about being invulnerable 2 seconds during the spawning ?

>> No.11592033

>>11591727
But if you do not take gameplay and realistic scenarios into account, it's nothing more than RNG.

>> No.11592150

>>11592033
I agree with you completely and I have no rebuttal to offer. Now, go on ahead and make a proper formula yourself. I'm willing to help you in any ways I can.

>> No.11592201

>>11591727
>the equations would become too complex.
Well boo-fucking-hoo, life is complex. Get over it nerd.

>> No.11592215

>>11587794
Depends on the size of a "point".

>> No.11592252

>>11592215
IHBT.

>> No.11592266
File: 762 KB, 281x281, Sakuya-san!, Sakuya-san!, Raping Stop!, Player Raping Stop!.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11592266

>Hitbox size doesn't matter

>> No.11592360

Where do you keyboard players usually place your fingers? I have my middle on up and down, pointer on left, and ring on right.

I'm finding that it's not really a good setup, especially for playing fighting games on.

>> No.11594031

>>11592360
I prefer IJKL over arrow keys. And ASDF for action keys as well. Wherever controls can be configured of course. As the home row just comes out much, much more natural.
But the arrows in such a position work just fine. What issues do you have with it?

>> No.11594098

>>11594031
I usually use pad, but when I use a keyboard, I use the same position except I use Arrow keys for shooting instead. A bit weird yes, but this feels more natural to me since I had my left hand on directional in games all my life. Using arrow keys for directional feels so alien.

>> No.11594109

>>11592266
Isn't this EoSD? I thought that game didn't have a visible hitbox.

Maybe your cheatpack got it wrong?

>> No.11594120

>>11594109
I believe that's PoFV

>> No.11594125

>>11594120
My bad, haven't played Touhou in a while.

>> No.11594194

>>11592266
You got grazed by the smaller bullet, not the knife.

>> No.11594195

>>11594031
>>11594098
I'm actually using WASD for movement and JKL for focus(or autofire)/bomb/shot now. It just feels like my ring finger isn't strong enough for certain movements. However, it seems like a lot of the better players use really strange control setups for keyboard. I see a few people use QSDZ and IKLM for movement while using the numpad for shooting, which is really weird and I could not get used to it at all.

>> No.11594204

>>11594195
>QSDZ and IKLM
Both of those at the same time is actually quite comfortable, huh. But if I was to use 4 fingers at once I'd rather use ASDF and JKL: instead. Homerow should by all means feel natural, assuming you know basic typing.

>> No.11594315

>>11594204
They're really comfortable, yes. Tough to get used to since I've been using WASD for years in other games though.

The weirdest control setup I've seen for moving was probably E=Left R=Right S = Down B = Up. With MKL on focus/bomb/shot. It feels like the movement is really good for fighting games, but it just felt weird playing like that in any of the shmups.

>> No.11594900

>>11587643

I'm assuming the blue area is your hitbox and the red areas are the bullets' hitboxes. In that case left game is harder (because you have a larger hitbox).

>> No.11595847

>>11594109
The only tool I use is vsync patch in certain games.

>>11594194
Yeah, that one got close, but grazing don't damage you. And when you get hit, you take damage/die instantly.

>> No.11597033

>>11594315
WASD always felt extremely awkward to me.
It's shifted one to the left of standard home row for no real reason. To access keys like shift and ctrl? No, those could be accessed anyways. To hit more keys? No, standard homerow has more reachable keys. To feel around without a pinky if you've an indented caps key? Maybe, but you should have F stand out physically anyways, standard and more reliable.
ESDF > WASD

>> No.11597857

Both of those are impossible

>> No.11598090

Do I really need to use a keyboard to be good at 2h? Is it the only way?

I'm a pad pleb, but I want to be able to achieve great scores using pad because I like it.

>> No.11598118

>>11598090
You can use whatever you like. Keyboard, pad, racing wheel. Surely you can practice with any option.

>> No.11598127
File: 184 KB, 1500x1125, I only Drive Josh in car Scion, Touhou, Ran outside.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11598127

>>11598118
>racing wheel

>> No.11598181

>>11598127
Flight stick works too.

>> No.11605340

If you quantify the area of white space on both images, you will see that right side has more white space. It's a relatively tiny advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. Unless there's something else I'm missing here, I don't see why this is a trick question.

>> No.11607416

left

>> No.11607504

>>11598118
I wouldn't mention driving wheels around here.

>> No.11607528

>>11598181
steel battalion controller master race checking in.

>>
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