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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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10903493 No.10903493 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Did you do your reps yet /jp/?

>> No.10903497

zomg first

>> No.10903502

I feel so honored to be the first reply. All of my hard work and dedication has paid off. Posting the first response has been a dream of mine
for many years, and I would like to thank those who have helped me along the way. First and foremost I would like to thank Kami-sama for giving
me this opportunity. Next I would like to thank my parents. I want to thank my cat Lola, for being really fat and always there for me. I would
also like to thank my pet tadpole for surviving against all odds for over a week. Next I would like to thank the squirrel that lives in my
backyard for climbing trees because that gives me the inspiration that I need to get through the day. I also want to thank ZUN for giving me
2hus to beat in my 2hu games. This is a special moment in my life and I would like to thank any of my unmentioned friends and family that
have helped me along the way. This moment will be a moment that I will never forget. I just remembered a few other people I would like to
thank; Satori, the fish I caught in the third grade, my light in my room because I wouldn’t be able to see the keyboard without it, the
internet for letting me go on 4chan, my house because without it I would be homeless, and last but not least I would like to thank all the
people out there that actually took time out of their day to read this. I cannot stress how much of a big deal to me this is. I have been
trying to be the first reply on a post for years, but that has not been possible until this amazing day. Hopefully my good luck will
continue, but this is undoubtedly a rare occasion. If you asked me how I did this, I would say, you can achieve anything you set your mind on.
To all the /jp/sies out there reading this, I would like to tell them to follow their dreams. Being the first reply is amazing, thank you everyone!

>> No.10903507 [DELETED] 

Why were these threads forbidden again? Because angry people who failed learning the language or what?

>> No.10903509

They're not forbidden, I just haven't posted one lately.

>> No.10903616

Saved for future use.

>> No.10903817

I'm happy for you my friend.

>> No.10903837
File: 20 KB, 547x549, ss (2013-05-18 at 07.36.01).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

My reading comprehension has doubled since half a year back.

>> No.10903845

le epic jaypee general face

>> No.10903849

What level?

>> No.10903851

viral marketing general XD

>> No.10903858


>> No.10903865

it's ステマ faggit

>> No.10903964 [DELETED] 

Just bought the Anki app on my iPhone :)
It's so awesome ^____^

>> No.10903975

It's enough.

>> No.10903978

only way to learn japanese is with anki right guys?

right? better post em graphs ;)

>> No.10903991


>> No.10903994

The anon who longed for eroge, beholds with pain
The tempting clusters were too high to gain;
Grieved in his heart he forced a careless smile, while shitposting on the board he learned to love.
And cried, "They're fuggin weebs, that's all they are, and therefore I must have this thread begone."

>> No.10904192

I use koohii to review my kanji, thank you very much.

>> No.10904453

You can use Mnemosyne if you wish.

>> No.10905538


>> No.10906207
File: 31 KB, 682x566, guide to learning japanese.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.10906252

Not the guy you're responding to, but I found RTK very helpful.

>> No.10906300

Just because something is helpful doesn't mean it's the most efficient. Learning kanji by themselves is for the most part a waste of time in comparison to how much you can get done with learning vocabulary in that time. You can easily be reading and getting used to grammar by the time it takes you to finish RTK.

>> No.10906365

RTK doesn't take long at all, and it makes it much easier to learn vocabulary from that point onward.

>> No.10906389

I just told you it was helpful, but it's not the most efficient way. By the time you're done learning 2000 kanji, you could have learned 1000 kanji in context and 4000 words to go along with it and be making your way through easy manga.

>> No.10906390

RTK takes 2 months tops if you're motivated and makes everything else much easier.

>> No.10906400

No you think it does because you never tried learning vocab without it. It's really not hard to learn kanji without knowing the radicals, and after the first couple hundred you will know all the radicals anyway, and you won't have to reverse engineer it every time you see it and have a useless English meaning with no pronunciation. RTK is for people who are scared of Japanese, you will never become fluent if you're scared.

>> No.10906402

I quit doing my reps for 6 months or so.
I've forgotten most of it as I wasn't to far into learning Japanese.
What decks should I use?
Is everyone still using the core decks?

>> No.10906413


>> No.10906421

Nice try goiy

>> No.10906429

Do you think that's a troll guide or something? That's literally the best way to learn Japanese. Learning vocab through reading and learning kanji through vocab instead of by themselves or in a word list.

>> No.10906435

>but it's not the most efficient way
I don't think efficiency is really the main problem people have with learning Japanese. You don't often see people who have been diligently working every day for years without making any progress because their methods are inefficient.
What you do see, are people who work hard for a week then do nothing for a month because studying is hard and boring.
If RTK helps to make the process a little easier and thus keep people motivated, then I think it's well worth the very short period of time it takes to complete. That would be true even if it didn't improve the ability to learn new vocab afterwards.

>By the time you're done learning 2000 kanji, you could have learned 1000 kanji in context and 4000 words
Where did you get those numbers? Learning kanji with RTK is easier than learning Japanese words; there's no way 2000 kanji would take as long as 4000 words.

>> No.10906440

nice try trickster.

>> No.10906447

Just bought the Anki app on my iPhone :)
It's so awesome ^____^

>> No.10906456

After you learn a word with a kanji you can learn a couple more with the same kanji quite easily. Not so much at first, but once you get to around 500 or so you can pair up different kanji you know to get a bunch of words. I do agree that doing RTK is better than procrastinating though, but assuming someone has the motivation, it's not the best method to use.

>> No.10906605

You'd have to have a very specific mental disability with kanji if it takes you the same time to learn 2000 Kanji as it takes you to learn 1000Kanji and 4000 words.

>> No.10906636

Even if it was a 1:1 ratio, you would still be reading way before someone who did RTK. Grammar is more important than vocabulary to get used to anyway. After that your reading speed increases and so does your ability to learn new words and know how they are used in context.

>> No.10906664

Is there any particular basis for your position on RTK? Did you try it and it didn't work for you?

>> No.10906692

I've heard from most people who have done it that the only thing that it helps with is writing. So if you want to write, use it, but if you want to read then it's kind of pointless. You can just learn kanji by recognition, you don't need to know all the radicals.

>> No.10906823

I have a question about Anki for which I couldn't find the answer on Google. In Anki 2, I've noticed that cards are spaced in different ways when they shouldn't be. What I mean is, let's assume that I have two cards. I've added them on the same days, studied them on the same days, and marked them the same each time. Now, when I study them again, let's say for example, I mark them both as good (10 days): one of them will space 10 days, and the other 11 days. I don't understand why they're spacing out differently. Anyone know why this may be? I couldn't find anything in the options that dealt with this either.

>> No.10906828

I've done my programming reps. Anki is pretty great.

>> No.10906829

Let me clarify something. When I say that I mark them as good (10 days), I mean that both cards say "10 days" for good, but when they're actually scheduled, one of them will go for 11 days and not 10, even though it said 10 when I marked it.

>> No.10906916

>After you learn a word with a kanji you can learn a couple more with the same kanji quite easily.
After a couple years of trying to learn purely through reading (which came after a year of classes) this wasn't the case for me. I learned words and could recognize them easily but if I saw the kanji used in those words on their own or in a different word I usually only had a vague recollection of them, if that, which wasn't very helpful. And it was impossible to recall them, for writing for example.

That's why I decided to go through RTK even though I had been studying Japanese for years and probably had familiarity with most of the kanji in the first volume. And it was definitely worth it, not that less than an hour of studying each day for three months is much of a time investment.

I'm not going to say that RTK is the way to go for everyone though. Different people learn better with different methods, and I'm not arrogant enough to think everyone's going to have the same experience as me, or arrogant enough to think it's my place to tell people how they should be studying Japanese. I'm only posting this to offer a positive experience with Heisig so people won't see your posts and disregard RTK without giving it real consideration as an option, like I did for a few years.

>> No.10906918

>By the time you're done learning 2000 kanji, you could have learned 1000 kanji in context and 4000 words to go along with it

Only that's bullshit. Remembering a word requires you to retain more information than remembering a single kanji the RTK way (and about the same as KanjiDamage way, which does explicitly teach you words formed with your kanji, just in an efficient way), and without recognizing kanji you're learning much less efficiently. Divide your numbers by about four.

And by the time you recognize 2000 kanji, you can more or less comprehend most of Japanese vocabulary. Not just grammatical forms of single kanji words, a majority of jukugo too. That's when you can start "making your way through easy manga", and that's when you can start retaining jukugo and alternative meanings as you encounter them.

You are not going to learn 2000 words from scratch in similar time. You are not going to read even a fraction of text with whatever words you do learn. You are not going to learn those words even remotely as efficiently as you would if you recognized them as compositions of kanji. All you are going to achieve is make yourself feel better than you skip the "mundane" grinding part and learn "real" language. Which I guess makes sense if you're truly unable to learn methodically and it bores you just like >>10906435 described. But that's just you.

>> No.10906947

It's the fudge factor. It's there so cards you rate similarly don't end up being together forever that you end up "remembering" the other card by seeing the other one. Alternatively, you're using the load balancer which also spreads out reviews.

>> No.10906970

Load balancer is an add-on right? I'm not using that so I suppose it's the fudge factor. That feature makes sense now that I think about it. Thanks for the help.

>> No.10906988

I don't know about you, but I never learned kanji beforehand and I learn about 1500 vocabulary per month. I have the benefit of them being the most common words, which means that I'm learning the most common kanji first. When you're doing RTK you learn quite a lot of useless kanji first and common kanji later, which means you cannot really focus on anything else until you are finished. It's like a 2 month road block with little payoff.

>> No.10907215

>You are not going to learn 2000 words from scratch in similar time.
You don't need to. Someone who kind of barely partially somewhat knows 10000 words because they've been reading is in a better position than someone who has 2000 words mature on anki and can write them from memory. Or if you do use something like anki and have example sentences on each card, that works too, because you're getting the additional reinforcement of seeing non-vocab words repeatedly as well.

If the number of words you know equals the number of anki cards you've gone through, you're doing something wrong. If you do plain kanji, the number of words you know is LESS than the number of anki cards you've gone through.

>> No.10907496


There is no kanji in this guild. Is it a ruse guide?

>> No.10907534

Give me one good reason not to use Kanjidamage or RTK and learn kunyomi, meaning, and stroke order.

That way you build vocabulary in (at least) a 1:1 correspondence with each card, whilst clearing the path for a far easier time mowing through vocab and reading.

>> No.10907539

If you want to, you can always use RTK and then go into Volume 2 and pull out the on-yomi and/or kun-yomi words and add them to your cards or a separate deck.

>> No.10907543

I mean, ignore Heisig's RTK2 ordering and method and just use it to pull out the words and readings.

>> No.10907544


Stroke order is a waste of time unless you actually plan to write anything.

>> No.10907552

I figure if I'm planning on spending a couple thousand hours on something I should probably go for the complete package instead of half-assing it.

If I don't, I'd be no better than a BR. I damn well hope I'm better than a BR.

>> No.10907555

Yeah if I"m going to learn a language I want to be fully literate in it.

>> No.10907582

noob question guys, if I add 75 new cards per day, how many review I'll get everyday? 750?

>> No.10907591

You learn it through vocabulary...

>> No.10907597

>implying it is possible to "know" kanji without mnemonics and your mom jokes

>> No.10907600


though, for me, when i was doing 100 new word/day i ended up with like 1500 reviews since i couldn't retain that much.

i don't do that much anymore and don't want to again.

>> No.10907602

You're right, if it doesn't take at least 5 steps to reverse engineer a kanji into a meaning then I would hardly call it knowing.

>> No.10907611

woah thats just too much, guess I'll decrease my new card/day. Thanks

>> No.10907619


Why not just set a review limit?

>> No.10907625

That would ruin the point of doing spaced repetition.

>> No.10907633

I did 50 cards a day for two months when I started out. Got to around 250 cards every day.

Really depends on how good your vocabulary already is.

>> No.10907636


That's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

>> No.10907646

I'm thinking of switching from recall (E>J) to recognition (J>E) because synonyms and similar words are starting to annoy me.
Should I review from kanji or kana, assuming I just want to read? If the latter, how do I deal with homonyms?

>> No.10907651

It won't prevent you from learning japanese if that's what you mean. You'll learn japanese eventually from just looking through a J->E dictionary if you do it for long enough. But if you choose to do SRS, you may as well take advantage of the spaced repetition part.

>> No.10907658

Kanji always, unless there is no kanji version. Almost every time I but a word in kana, I eventually come across the word in kanji and have to remake the card.

>> No.10907660

Why would you ever learn E->J? It's not like you are going to talk to people.

>> No.10907664

That's retarded. You either need to learn the kanji or use furigana, because it is infinitely more helpful to know how the individual kanji are pronounced when looking up a new word. You'll be spending time searching kanji by radical or looking up words you know and then checking the dictionary with that one kanji, looking for the full word you don't know, when you could just type in both kanji and get the new word you want to learn.

Learn vocab words but grind those kanji too, although only one reading is sufficient. Just gotta be able to type it and hit space in IME until the kanji comes up.

>> No.10907679

You clearly didn't read the end of the guide where it lists tools to look up without need to know the reading, and you're clearly too new to be giving any sort of advice if you think that's how an IME works.

>> No.10907690

Okay, thanks. I think I'll go with that. Since after all, that's how I'll be encountering them in the wild.

Just because it's the default setting on most decks.
It was okay at first but it only causes me grief now.

>> No.10907693

>Needing tools because you don't know the readings

>> No.10907704

>Knowing 魔法 doesn't mean you can type 魔!
Yeah, no, you're an idiot.

>> No.10907740

>using a method that takes a lot longer and produces the same results

>> No.10907888

>Someone who kind of barely partially somewhat knows 10000 words because they've been reading is in a better position than someone who has 2000 words mature on anki

That's obviously true. Likewise, someone who kind of barely partially somewhat understands 10000+ words because he memorized 2000 kanji is in a much better position than someone who has 2000 words mature on anki. (And that's still under a faulty assumption that learning kanji in an organized manner is as slow as learning random words.)

>If you do plain kanji, the number of words you know is LESS than the number of anki cards you've gone through.

Now you're just being retarded.

Make a test. Take a random kanji, and search for it on jisho, common words only. Classify the results by how much of them you could understand from kanji alone.

Let's take 遅, for example. 10 hits.
Single-kanji words you can read right off the bat just with some basic intuition about grammar: 遅々, 遅れ, 遅い, 遅らす, 遅れる
Single-kanji words where your intuition will fail: none
Compounds you can read right right off the bat just by summing up their kanji: 遅咲き, 遅滞
Compounds you basically understand by summing up their kanji, but have a distinct meaning you'd probably need to check anyway just to be sure: 遅延, 遅配
Compounds you won't understand: 遅刻
Compounds where your intuition will fail: none
Total understandable words: 7 out of 10.

Looks almost too good, and admittedly there are many kanji that will give you more trouble, but it's not particularly special either. It's about normal.

And you can't even invoke the "but you can't pronounce/type them" card now, because you yourself praised "partially somewhat knowing". And even that can be countered just by pointing out how faster it is to learn all that once you know kanji.

>> No.10907901

Wait so your claim of knowing a word is knowing the meaning of the kanji in it? That's just knowing the kanji. To know a word you need to read the definition on it and be able to read it.

>> No.10907928

Personally going straight to vocabulary was just impossible for me. Kanji made it too difficult. The only system that helped me to learn them was RTK. I ended up quitting a while back, but I'm going to start up doing RTK again (quickly as it will just be a refresher) but adding in vocab with each kanji so I'll get readings too.

>> No.10907938

1. It wasn't impossible because you didn't give it a fair shot.
2. The reason you quit is because its a 2 month roadblock of not learning anything really useful

Not sure why you're going to do the same method that make you quit the first time.

>> No.10907941

>To know a word you need to read the definition on it
Stop talking shit.

>> No.10907943

No I gave it a shot and I couldn't do it. Not everything works the same for everyone.

I actually finished RTK and quit after moving on to later things. It was very helpful to me, I just wish that I had gotten readings too. Anyway like I said I'll just be refreshing myself on it because I don't remember everything, and adding in vocabulary to kill 2 birds with one stone.

>> No.10907980

>a 2 month roadblock of not learning anything really useful

"Practicing anatomy is a 2 month roadblock of not learning anything really useful. You should just start drawing your anime girls right away."

>> No.10907995

>"Practicing anatomy is a 2 month roadblock of not learning anything really useful. You should just start drawing your anime girls right away."
Sounds fine to me. Although I know fuck all about art. Why exactly would someone who only wants to draw anime girls with fucked proportions bother studying most of that formal art stuff? They'll suck forever, but it seems to me that it's the most efficient way to get to where they wanted to be.

>> No.10908076


>trying to use an incomparable process as an analogy

Before you can perfect your own art style, you need to understand the real thing. It's linear progression. You're not moving on to B without doing A first.

Vocabulary, kanji, and grammar are more like pieces to the same jigsaw puzzle that is the Japanese language, with each having possession of parts of the border and some of the corners. You have to complete the puzzle eventually, but how you should go about it is best determined by your own personal learning style. Some people will find flash card kanji learning to be absolutely useless, while others might need to put it off until they have a decent vocabulary to help them along.

tl;dr: The methods that worked for you don't work for everyone, and things that wouldn't work for you might work well for someone else.

>> No.10909078

If you just need to read you can get to near adult proficiency within 200 hours.

>> No.10909438
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Could you recommend some easy manga or LN (or something else which might interest a /jp/ user) for learning purpose, please ? I am quite beginner, I know about 400 kanji.

>> No.10909448


>> No.10909449


>> No.10909456

Yotsubato might be great idea. I guess vocabulary is pretty easy? And it is cute.

>> No.10909485

That's only if you memorize the kun/on readings, which is a lot more work than just memorizing the meaning of the kanji, and even stupider to do.
Your argument is therefore irrelevant.

If someone learns 遅れる and 遅刻, that person knows the on/kun readings of 遅, the on reading of 刻, and the two most common words from your list (one of which you admitted that someone only who studied kanji wouldn't understand)

If you just learn that 遅=チ=おく=be late, then you've probably put more work into it because you're learning with ankishit, and you would do worse on the test you just described.

>> No.10909498

Oops, forgot about 遅い, but that adds an extra kun reading too, so it adds the same amount of info to both sides.

>> No.10909511

Just one more noob question, while studying by Heisig's method, I will learn only one or two meanings per kanji, right? How will I learn the rest? Just by reading Japanese texts after I've finished learning them? And how about on/kun readings? Should I be studying the other meanings and on/kun readings now or after I've memorized Heisig's meanings?

>> No.10909531

By learning vocabulary. Basically, after you finished kanji, you can approach Japanese like any other foreign language.

>> No.10909532

is there some sort of hint to the reading for compounds with 物? i often can't remember if it is もつ、もの、or ぶつ.

like is one of the readings for large objects, small objects, conceptual objects or something?

>> No.10909547

Okay, thanks!

>> No.10909549

I've never really noticed a pattern. Once you see the word a couple of times while reading you should be able to remember which it is pretty easily.

>> No.10909550

もつ・ぶつ is just a bitch.  Not to mention there are silly things like 植物=しょくぶつ, 食物=しょくもつ,

But note that もの is a kun reading while the other two are on readings, so you can often tell whether it is supposed to be もの or if it is one of the other two, because もの is used if its not a jukugo

>> No.10909603
File: 55 KB, 240x311, Sweat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm wondering wether I'll be better off using KanjiDamage or RTK. I would normally use RTK, but I don't like the fact that there are not any readings and I'm not sure if it is important to learn them at this stage.

I haven't started yet, so what would be the best option in your opinion?

>> No.10909608

Search each kanji on KanjiD to check the most common usages.


>> No.10909615

the first time i see something during reading, yes, i'm probably not going to forget for the first couple of days. but i forget it after a while and end up using a different reading when coming across it again, mixing up with other words, etc.

yeah generally for some words it is pretty obvious like 落し物 or something. i still come across compounds like 宝物(たからもの/ほうもつ) where i think its using one of the onyomi readings or something. for 宝物 i checked google for the highest number of hits so i'd use that instead but i'd still end up hearing たからもの being used though, just to add more frustration to my life.

>> No.10909638

Wouldn't it in RTK be better if you saw the kanji first and then the English meaning if you just want to be able to read?

>> No.10909647

learning japanese is as worthless as studying women and gender studies at college

>> No.10909669

That's a decent strategy, often referred to as "not doing RTK at all"

>> No.10909674

宝物 is たからもの. Don't even bother remembering the other one, just don't be surprised if you eventually come across ほうもつ as a furigana reading.

>> No.10909689
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>> No.10909693

I'm not using it, I just tried it out in the beginning.

I'm using a deck with complete sentences and make new cards for every new kanji I find. Worked pretty good so far.

>> No.10911705

Are there any SRS programs that allow me to use something similar to rikaisama?

I would like to be able to highlight individual kanji while I'm learning vocab and see something pop up with the meaning so that I can use that to help me remember. Trying to do that with anki is inefficient and clumsy since you have to copy it from anki, paste it into jisho, and repeat at least once for each word.

>> No.10911727

It would be quicker for you to paste the word into a browser, with rikai on, and hit enter when you're looking at the word. You could also probably macro the double click + cntrl c, to save time.

>> No.10911859

what anime is this image from and are there more like it?

>> No.10912417
File: 121 KB, 500x497, 1354697426938.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Do you really need to learn the on'yomi and kun'yomi readings?

I can see why it would be useful to know the meanings since they will help to familiarize you with the appearance of the kanji and it will be easier to remember vocabulary if you use the meanings as little clues to trigger your memory of the vocab. On'yomi is a confusing mess that's filled with so many exceptions that it's easier to just learn the pronunciations of entire words since that has some context to it and is easier to remember. You would also already learn the kun'yomi in a much easier to remember context by going through your vocab.

I don't understand how people are able to retain so much out of context data and keep it organized within their minds. It seems simpler and less frustrating to focus on vocab and fly through kanji as fast as possible while just remembering the meanings.

>> No.10912445

It's going to be hard either way so just do what you think will work for you.

>> No.10912471

It may be better to just memorize the readings as they are in context, i.e. in sentences. That way 1) you learn the kanji readings 2) you know which reading to use here 3) you get the most important readings.

>> No.10918554

I try to remember readings (focusing on onyomi) but don't make a big deal if some of them just refuse to stick, I'll get them covered with vocab.

>> No.10918793

Is it weird to use a verb the describes "going" to say you are going to the "soccer" in Japanese or does it have to be a place that has a physical property.

>> No.10919754

You can't even say that in English.

>> No.10926833 [DELETED] 


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>> No.10934693

Are you nerds going to move to Japan once you've mastered Nihongo, too?

>> No.10934705

Yes but unlike Coreans, I won't be a douchebag.

>> No.10934736



Would be like "let's do soccer!" You want:

Going to do soccer.

Going to watch soccer.

>> No.10934749

"サッカーを見にいく" sounds much better.

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>> No.10934764



>> No.10934785

*ちんちんを掴む *

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>> No.10934885

Not only am I not learning, I'm forgetting stuff I used to know!

>> No.10934907

do I setup vocab cards with english on the front or back?

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>> No.10935015


>> No.10935634

Neither. Kanji on front, hiragana reading on back.

>> No.10935741

That doesn't help you learn the meaning, though.

>> No.10935816

how can I tell what's right for me?

>> No.10935968

Ask your doctor.

>> No.10936062

Are you learning how to read?
F:Vocab, (sentence),(context)
B: reading, meaning, (notes)

Production cards (English->Japanese) are more mentally taxing and if you only do recognition(Japanese->meaning) you'll be able to produce some percentage of them anyway. Even in your own language your passive vocabulary is much more than your active vocabulary.

>> No.10936186


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