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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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10540955 No.10540955 [Reply] [Original]

Why don't Japanese stories ever obey the three act structure?

As a Westerner who has followed millennia of superior storytelling, it seems frustrating that a lot of their stories (eroge, anime, comics, novels...) come off as something written by a teenager who doesn't understand creative writing.

>> No.10540958

We Brecht now, son

>> No.10540989

History only has a three act structure when one is imposed on it.

>> No.10540996

>>10540989
Real life follows a three act structure.

Read Poetics.

>> No.10541004

Real life follows a 26 act structure if i fuckin want it to.

>> No.10541017

no op, japanese stories generally follow the 3-act structure. give an example of one that doesn't.

>> No.10541023

>>10540955
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo-ha-ky%C5%AB

>> No.10541042

Like Knox's silly laws, it's just made up nonsense to try and force everyone to play by the same rules.

>> No.10541038

>>10541023
>This concept is applied to elements of the Japanese tea ceremony
>begin slowly, speed up, and then end swiftly

This doesn't sound like taking it easy.

>> No.10541049

Two acts with an intermission is better.

>> No.10541045

>>10541023
1356? Something Western Euorpe figured out in 300 BC?

What am I missing here? Are the Japs just retarded?

>> No.10541059

Why would anyone abide by any laws in terms of creative writing.

Except for the laws of the usage of the used language of course.

>> No.10541063

>>10541042
yea man FUCK DA ROOLZ

*disobeys music theory*
*makes dubstep*

>> No.10541067

Wouldn't following some old, set rules make your work less creative?

>> No.10541068

>>10541059
It's best to have a through and complete understanding of the rules before you decide to break them.

>> No.10541075

>>10541067
Quite the opposite. Working under set restraints means you have to put more effort into what you have to make it effective.

Consider old home computer or NES games (strict technical requirements) versus hippie indie art games (no technical requirements).

>> No.10541076

>>10541068
*thorough
oops.

>> No.10541070

>>10541063
It doesn't matter if people like it. They're arbitrary rules.

>> No.10541082

>>10541070
If they were arbitrary, they wouldn't be rules.

At least listen to >>10541068

>> No.10541109

This thread explains why everyone hates Umineko EP 8.
You just can't understand something beyond your self-enforced narrow mindset.

>> No.10541110

>>10541070
But they're not. Writing is a very delicate craft. The reason Joyce is remembered and some random stoner's paranoid ramblings are disregarded as trash is because Joyce understood the craft of writing inside-and-out, and knew exactly which rules he could break and which rules he still needed to adhere to.

>> No.10541113

>>10541075
who cares about effort

>> No.10541115

>>10541110
>Joyce

Feck off, Tokiko.

Like seriously any contemporary writer is just as good and knows the rules.

>> No.10541128

Don't they just add an additional act between set up and confrontation? It makes more sense for serial publications meant to last as long as they can.

>> No.10541122

What writers in particular, OP?

>> No.10541135

op, /jp/ is getting off track.

to get back to your question, i think you have to think about the japanese culture in general.

they were secluded and not very united for a very long time.
in order for things like literature to prosper you need prolonged peace and unity.

>> No.10541130

>>10540958
>Brecht
wiki says:
Brecht's modernist concern with drama-as-a-medium led to his refinement of the "epic form" of the drama.

and

Non-Aristotelian drama, or the 'epic form' of the drama, is a kind of play whose dramaturgical structure departs from the features of classical tragedy in favour of the features of the epic, as defined in each case by the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle in his Poetics (c.335 BCE).

>> No.10541132

>>10540955
The Three act structure is one of the many reasons every fucking story is the same.

Fuck you

>> No.10541133

>>10541075
Hippie indie art games have budget restrictions.

>> No.10541149

>>10541115
I never claimed that Joyce was superior to any other decent modernist. He's just one of the few names from that movement most people probably recognize.

>> No.10541150

>>10541075
I hope you're not implying stuff like Indie games being bad because there is better technology now and their are not using it to it's full potential. Unless you have the money and the people, you won't be able to make an indie game that looks like Crysis.

>> No.10541164

>>10541068
Here's a comment from the receiving end:

That's what people who know the rules like to say. When it comes to any kind of art or entertainment, I don't care about the rules. It's the master's affair to figure out if following the rules yields good results.

I am the unwashed plebe. Weird trash may amuse me.

>> No.10541165

>>10541135

Because Greece wasn't a war ridden cluster fuck of oily tanned gay men and yet succeed to make almost all the philosophy of the world.

>> No.10541162

>>10541150
You can do pretty decent things with just Unity.

>> No.10541169

>>10541165
It was a clusterfuck because it was exposed to different types of culture. Japan was isolated.

>> No.10541166

Please delete your thread. As a person with a degree in creative writing, I'm telling you that this is the most stupid fucking thread I've seen on /jp/, ever.

>> No.10541172

>>10541122
>>10541122
>>10541122

>> No.10541176

>>10540955
>who doesn't understand creative writing
>impose one kind of structure
Doesn't that, you know, defeat the whole point of 'creative'?

>> No.10541178

>>10541132
this.
there are enough stories already written, if you're gonna do the same thing all over again just dont even bother and save everyone the trouble.
No wonder shit like twilight sells like crazy, everyone is tired of a bunch of retards following some shit rules because they think making up fairy tales is some kind of science.

>> No.10541179

>>10541166
>degree in creative writing.

I laughed

>> No.10541181

>>10541176
You can be creative within a structure. In fact, that's part of the point. Otherwise classes for this sort of thing wouldn't exist. You'd just buy paper, run wild, and make a shitty story.

>> No.10541185

>>10541183
I knew someone who was doing a degree in purely Creative Writing.

Not that it's a good idea, but yeah ..

>> No.10541183

>>10541166
>creative writing
Nope. That's a single make-work course in an English department, not a whole degree program.

>> No.10541188

>>10541183
It's a masters program. My undergraduate degree was in biology.

>> No.10541189
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10541189

>As a Westerner

>> No.10541190

I did a BTEC in creative writing.

>> No.10541196

>>10541188
Wh - What

>> No.10541197

>>10540996
Life isnt poetry dumb shit.

>> No.10541198

>>10541176
If you find some principle of composition that works, you keep using it until you find something that's both contradictory to it and better.

>> No.10541205

>>10541017
I like how no one tried to refute him.

This thread is over.

>> No.10541207

>>10541198
>you keep using it until you find something that's both contradictory to it and better.

Actually that's completely wrong. Writing isn't engineering or science. 'Principles' are for understanding and general knowledge, not for universal and mandatory use.

>> No.10541216

>>10541169

It is even worse for japan then. They almost had nothing to worry about yet it took them 1200 years to do the same but less good and even more gay than the fucking greeks.

>> No.10541223

>>10541205
I assumed he was addressing the OP?

>> No.10541228

>>10541178
>No wonder shit like twilight sells like crazy, everyone is tired of a bunch of retards following some shit rules because they think making up fairy tales is some kind of science.
It's not coincidence that all kinds of wrecks and lunatics can be great artists. If you want science or engineering, switch to science or engineering. Rich kids who were forced to play the violin do themselves a favor when they realize it.

>> No.10541241

>>10541178

The only thing Twilight did differently was pander to a different demographic. It's the same self-insert bullshit we've all seen before.

>> No.10541277

Why doesn't anyone list all the japanese eroge, anime, comics and novels that don't follow that structure? I'm curious to hear some names.

>> No.10541288

>>10541178
There are cliche stories that work well, though.

It's like filmmaking. People won't notice if you do everything right, but people will notice if you do shit wrong.

>> No.10541318

I don't like it when people try to make something fun and entertaining like story-telling into something really serious and stressful. Like it or not, people should just tell their stories in whatever way they want.

>> No.10541347

>>10541318
That's why these rules are there, though. They're really loose rules, they just say, "Look, do this, it's fun, it's simple, it makes sense, and both you and your audience can take it easy."

Stories that try to be different are stressful or hard to follow in 99% of cases.

>> No.10541376

>>10541318
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
People love to do things for social reasons. A nerd on autism bucks doesn't sleep through an opera.

>> No.10541994

>>10541045
>300 BC
yeah, the romans spreading, raping, looking at ideals from others and adapting
>1356
Isolated, on an island, homegnous, no reason to change

>> No.10542009

>>10541994
>Isolated, on an island, homegnous, no reason to change
Myth.

Japanese were always in contact with the Chinese obtaining/staling things.

>> No.10542017
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10542017

The light novels all the animes are based on are written by teenagers who don't understand writing which is another reason anime's dyin' Cloud

>> No.10542018

Is there more to the three-act structure than, "these are the characters, stuff happened, the end"?

Are there stories that aren't told this way?

>> No.10542062

>>10541318
Knowing the rules will make you better.
It's like with musicians that know music theory, those that know it always have the advantage or those that don't.

This doesn't mean you're limiting your creative ability, in fact you're expanding it because you are now able to see the patterns within an art and defy them.

>> No.10542132

>>10542062
>comparing music theory to a literary structure

music theory examines the language and notation of music. Using a single structure to write is like using only one structure that someone who studied music theory developed. They aren't the same.

>> No.10542232

>don't (...) obey the three act structure
>doesn't understand creative writing.

"Following some arbitrary constraints is creative" - you.

>> No.10542362

>>10541135
>implying europe enjoyed lasting peace for more than a decade or so in their entire recorded history.

>> No.10542380

There are no stories that don't follow the three act setup. Unless you define the characters, there's no story to tell. Unless there's a story to tell, there's no resolution. I've never seen a VN that just ends there with no form of conclusion. No, rushed endings are still conclusions.

>> No.10542385

>>10541045
By "the west" you mean Greeks? Yeah take a look at Greece now man. Sure is superior.

>> No.10542390

>>10542380
>I've never seen a VN that just ends there with no form of conclusion.
Tears to Tiara is a good contender.

"We have scored a major victory in battle! Next, we'll press our advantage by atta... THE END"

>> No.10542398

>>10542390

Was their winning not the conclusion? A conclusion doesn't have to be "...and they all lived happily ever after."

>> No.10542405

>>10542390
If the story was leading up to the win, that's a conclusion. "They won the major battle, and will continue to battle until the end. THE END".

What I meant was, "And so I was walking to lunch to talk to my friends. I hadn't talked to them in a while so THE END" or something like that, right in the middle of the story.

>> No.10542414

>>10542398
>Was their winning not the conclusion?
It wasn't presented as such, that for sure. Even though their chances went from "hopeless suicide attack" to "half-decent shot at winning", the conflict was far from over and virtually nothing in the plot was resolved.

Guess that's why it's getting a sequel now.

>> No.10542422

I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted yet.

http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict

>> No.10542434

>>10542422
Conflict doesn't have to be two violently opposing sides though?

>> No.10542510
File: 405 KB, 863x1107, o0cbwh.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10542510

>>10542434
Did you read what's behind that link?

>> No.10542584

>>10541038
It's a ceremony nigga
that shit is high stress if you fuck up it's on your ass and you'll have egg on your face like a mofuggah

>> No.10542601

>>10542422
This explains every god-damned story structure of every JRPG I've ever played.

Now it all makes sense, actually.

>> No.10542607

Japanese use the form of Kishoutenketsu that takes root from Chinese narratives.

Introduction > Development > Twist > Conclusion

It's a unique form of storytelling that involves multiple "threads" or sub-developments, often seemingly disconnected, that come together to shape a larger open-ended narrative that the audience pieces together themselves. This is why so many Westerners have trouble with Japanese movies and media. It often lacks a conclusive ending.

I think it's important by the simple fact that it's a unique form. It also lends itself to more complexity and focuses on themes and symbols rather than "the story." I can't tell you how many times I've seen people complain about "the story" and completely miss the point. NGE is a great example.

>> No.10542616

>>10542607
Fuck, I didn't see >>10542422 posted. It does a much better job explaining it than I do.

>> No.10542659 [DELETED] 

your dick is one act
lmao

>> No.10542744

>>10542659
lol

>> No.10543051

>>10542422
I'm sorry, but the Western version is simply superior.

>>10542607
There are plenty of themes and symbols within "the story" in Western literature as well. You don't need to have a nonsensical plot in order to have complexity.

NGE is certainly a good example, but not in the sense you mean. The plot was constantly patched back up after Anno thought of a cool new idea, and it shows on a re-watch. It's more an example of a fundamentally incompatible culture, and I wish people would stop avoiding that idea. It's like they can't stomach the thought that people are different, so they insist on everything being the same.

In fact, that's a theme I notice people don't tend to get about NGE. Instrumentality, a parallel to multiculturalism and the Jews' pushing of it, is depicted as ultimately a very bad thing. Everything becomes one, there's no unity within divisions, just one giant monster. There are nationalist undertones in most Japanese media(Which IS something I wish "The West" had more of), but not many really go to NGE's extent.

>> No.10543348

>>10542422
>>10542607
This is like sex without climax.

Fuck that noise.

>> No.10543349

>>10543051
JEWSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

>> No.10543374

>>10543348
Why don't you understand superior kishoutenketsu story structure, anon? It's like you're some kind of backwards barbarian who can't enjoy a tale unless someone's hitting someone else with a club.

>> No.10543908
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10543908

>>10542422
That there is a tumblr link

>> No.10543910

>>10543051
nge is garbage, but i see your point.

>> No.10543915

>>10540955
You expect them to listen to an old blind albino? Wow, you must be retarded

>> No.10543923

>>10541181
>You can be creative within a structure. In fact, that's part of the point. Otherwise classes for this sort of thing wouldn't exist. You'd just buy paper, run wild, and make a shitty story.

Fun fact. Nobody who attended those shitty creative writing classes ever became a great writer.

>> No.10543953
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10543953

>>10543923
Maddox did.

>> No.10543970

What is a creative writing class even going to teach you? How to combine certain plot elements?

>> No.10543998

You'll get people reading and critiquing your work. The classes are mostly just people writing something and then letting others critique it.

>> No.10544020

>>10543970
Creative writing classes are bullshit. Maybe I just got unlucky, but I've looked at programmes for different classes and they all seem to be more about expressing yourself and getting in touch with your inner creativity, rather than learning how to actually tell stories.
It's a shame because there are worthwhile things that could be taught. I recommend reading Aristotle's Poetics (seriously, it's good) and Writing Drama by Yves Lavandier. The Hero with a Thousand Faces is good too, though it's a pretty slow book.

>> No.10544050

>>10544020
I think you are just unlucky. None of my classes are like that.

>> No.10544608

>>10543953
Maddox is shit.

>> No.10544613

>>10544608
You're shit, nerd.

>> No.10544872

>>10544613
No, you are shit faggot.

>> No.10544889

>>10544872
Shut the fuck up, poindexter.

>> No.10544931
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10544931

Moral Fags have taken over 4chan? Say it is not so!

Bish you have not seen all japanese stories? There are some that will blow your adult mind!

>> No.10544966

>>10544931
*thubs up*

>> No.10545167

>>10540955
Ki Sho Ten Ketsu
Look it up.

>> No.10545202

>>10541150
Indie games are bad because they are simple.
Look at VVVVVV now compare that to Metal Storm a game that was released on the NES 25 years earlier.

Metal storm is the same game as VVVVVVV but with more abilities and more complicated levels (ie it actually has enemies, boss fights)

>> No.10545211

>>10545202
Not every indie game is bad, though.

>> No.10545244

>>10543051
>You don't need to have a nonsensical plot in order to have complexity.

True. However, the conflict-centric plots of Western media limit how stories can be told. Japanese narratives are not "nonsensical." They are simply more inviting to interpretation of how the elements fit together in how one scene becomes recontextualized by another. It allows for focus on the structure, the telling, the individual pieces, rather than an explicit whole. That's not to say the whole or ending doesn't matter, it just isn't so important. SZS had an episode discussing this very thing. It's about the journey, not the destination.

The whole of NGE is about otaku, and to a larger extent, the failure of Japanese culture. Your focus on the plot elements are the result of western thinking. Forget the plot for a second and think about what is being said. You'll notice how Japanese don't tend to have a problem with NGE, but westerners are always trying to pick it apart and analyze the wrong things.

Eastern narrative structure allows for more simply by virtue of the fact that it doesn't necessitate conflict. It's not about being "superior", because there are fine pieces of western and eastern literature. It's about recognizing the right tool for the right occasion.

Uniquely Japanese storytelling patterns are part of the reason why I enjoy their media in the first place. It feels more involved. Yes it can meander and/or it can feel disjointed, but by the end it all makes sense to me.

>> No.10548624

>>10541075
>hippie indie art games

You mean like Touhou?

>>
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