Otaku - 20 years of history

[Anonymous No.]

So I went to an interesting talk today.

A Japanese professor from Konan Joshi University in Kobe did a presentation about the changing meaning of the word otaku in Japan over the last twenty years and the recent emergence of the word "joshi" to describe a new class of woman.

His basic premise was that otaku has lost most of the negative stereotype that it had in the 1980s and that as otaku culture has grown in value (and sales - 9,9 billion dollars in 2011) it has gained at least some mainstream acceptance.

What does /jp/ think?

[Anonymous No.]

I prefer to enjoy my hobbies without having to be branded with a type/name/class as if I were some kind of beast.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439319
Nerd.

[Anonymous No.]

fake and gay

[Anonymous No.]

that those people are no longer otakus but regular consumers

[Anonymous No.]

Actually not fake.

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/cjs/visitg_scholars_current.html

The professor's name is Ikeda Taishin

http://events.berkeley.edu/index.p/calendar/sn/ieas.html?event_ID=685&date=2013-02-01&filter=Seconda%20Event%20Type&filtersel=830

There's the calendar entry for it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439301
I don't know, otaku has kinda gone from "hopeless nerd" to "pedophile slasher." It's probably more that it's become accepted among otaku themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439384
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTOZOBHkY
They are hardworking upstanding citizens.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439384
What does it say about Japan that "pedophile slasher" no longer has much of an edge to it?

[Anonymous No.]

As an interesting sidenote, the professor mentioned that in 1994 one of his mentors (one of the first people to study otaku at Todai) was interviewed by NHK about otaku. However, he wasn't actually allowed to use the word otaku during the broadcast as it was one of the "prohibited words" that NHK doesn't use, like "yakuza".

It was only in like 2004 or so that this was changed.

[Anonymous No.]

Was this talk webcast or recorded?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439428
I don't think so. I have a recording of the audio on my iPad. I can upload it to Youtube or whatever if people want it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439435
I'd listen to it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439441
Allrighty! It'll take a bit to transfer it to Yotube. The audio file is like 300 megs or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439435
>>10439441
Me too! Please do, it sounds really interesting.

[Anonymous No.]

Not different from how 'nerd' has transformed into something positive. For any new culture, those who don't participate won't understand it, and will consider it alien and frightening and try to demonize it. This is what happened with 'otaku' and 'nerd.' Eventually this wears off and people realize it's not a bad thing to like cartoons and comics or whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439492
>Not different from how 'nerd' has transformed into something positive.

It hasn't. It's just being used ironically.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439503

I'm not talking about on 4chan, sport.

[Anonymous No.]

I think that given the increasingly insular and pandering nature of the anime industry's creative direction, its rising blu-ray prices and merchandising-centric branding which are reflect a business model not totally dissimilar from a drug cartel in its dependance on compulsive buyers who cannot refuse their product and, perhaps most importantly, the hipster mentality of the Otaku community itself embodied in discouragement of independent thought within its ranks, exaltation of self-consciously abnormal behavior and mentalities, and active deterrence to the entry of outsiders through everything from overuse of incomprehensible jargon to borderline persecution of those outside the standard deviation leading the group as a whole to actively uphold and protect their status as outsiders and a psuedo-counter culture, makes the idea that Otaku has achieved mainstream acceptance sketchy at best.

At least in relation to the anime market. There are certainly arguments for the manga market, the videogame market, and other "nerd hobbies," having escaped the Otaku "umbrella," and finding mainstream acceptance. Anime and Idol Worship however seem to be no different than they've ever been.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439515
Did you really just write this complete bullshit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439515

tldr rofl

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439517

It's so pretentious and dumb. You can tell whoever wrote it has an enormous gap between how smart they think they are and how smart they actually are.

[Anonymous No.]

OP Here:

The video is processing. Will take a bit for it to finish uploading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ7MtF-Aw&feature=youtu.be

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439301
The same thing is happening in the West with 'geek' apparently becoming fashionable. Of course, both in East and West, true geek/otaku will always be shunned by society.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439301
>What does /jp/ think?

I don't know about /jp/ in its entirety, but personally I think that while for a foreign scientific community that's not paying closer attention to the subject this may be an interesting and informative observation, as far as /jp/ goes it amounts to stating the obvious.

>>10439515
And then there's this guy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439578
You're my favorite person on /jp/ today.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439578
>Akaba Middle School Girls Watch Squidbillies
Why did your students want to watch that?

[Anonymous No.]

I thought that the economy of Japan got fucked up since the 90s though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439614
It got fucked up because all anyone buys from them anymore is anime and video games. They lost their electronic and car dominance. Ninja and samurai also stopped being "cool" so they couldn't export movies anymore either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439608
I'm not sure. They said that Granny looked "cute" but I'm 150% sure that they had no idea what they were in for.

Also, I knew I should have locked that video off from my other uploads ^^;

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439621
>They lost their electronic and car dominance.
did you know that they're actually more backwards than the air of electronic paradise they put up, and been like that since forever?

they don't have universal atms that work for all banks with all credit cards for 24 h/day, or fuck, they don't even have central heating in their houses.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439638
but they have self warming toilets and convenience stores!

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439578
Thank you. Berkeley really should put more of their lectures and talks online.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439629
>^^;

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439642
>self warming toilets
those are only in the capital, the place they use to show off their "look at how awesome we are" side.

everywhere else they're lagging behind a lot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439578

"That, uh, that, uh, incident, was, uh... quicky, uh.... was quickly, uh..."

Is this translator fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439657
No, he was translating for a guy he's never met on a subject he doesn't have any experience with after a week close to his PhD oral exams.

Full disclosure: I MIGHT know almost everyone whose voices you hear personally.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439638
Who needs physical money in this day and age?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439665

So he's retarded. Gotcha d00d.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439653
>those are only in the capital

You mean there's more to Japan than Tokyo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a36rNWcsM&yt:cc=on&cc_load_policy=1

I think your overall view of the country is outdated, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439516
>>10439517
>>10439523
>>10439595
nice going, buffoons. it's not that hard to read. it's just a bit unnecessary, but he made his points.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439667
japan uses physical money way more than every other country. shopping is usually cash only, no credit/debit cards. they don't have the hardware or infrastructure needed to use card readers and bank connections.

they also often don't use computers in offices for storing data, or if they have any they're soviet union-kind of old. they store it all on paper.

>>10439748
it might be, i can't find the source now, but i remember it saying about most japanese being very traditionalistic, and not using most of the new technologies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10440058
Why do they do that, though?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10440063
aging country. a big percent of japanese are old people. once they die out and the population size re-stabilizes at a lower number with more young generations remaining, maybe it'll change.

old generations are always holding back progress because of their conservative views and unwillingness for any change.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10440058
Not really. They have them but as you know old people dont embrace new technology so they use cash only.
Most of the konbini support nfc and suika/pasmo card for payment.
The problem is old people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439319
Faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10440021
And we made ours.

>he

Oh please. I'm sorry no-one bothered to take you seriously, but it's your fault. Next time drop the buzzwords and try to get at least the basic facts straight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10440113
>And we made ours.
where?
no, you are the samefag!

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439512
>>10439503

No he's right, there's money to be made from 'otaku' at the moment. Calling yourself otaku is cool in Japan, just like it's cool to be a 'nerd' in the west.

Yes OP, that guy is right. 'Otaku' has lost its meaning over time in Japan as the word has become popularized by the media.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439319
I'm telling you we don't NEED labels, bro. Like... we're all citizens of the world, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439515
IT'S A CONSPITHARACY SATO! A CONSPITHARACY!

[Anonymous No.]

I think its time to fap to lolis, OP.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439621
I thought their economy got fucked from their real estate market being a giant bubble that burst

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439638
Their computer industry is complete ass. Most computers being used are from the 90s.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10441310
>Most computers being used are from the 90s.

Did you travel back in time to the 00s.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439319
This is stupid. People label phenomena so they can talk about them efficiently. You may as well dislike any other word used to refer to a concept.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10442525
>People label phenomena so they can talk about them efficiently.

For example, I will now label you a faggot. This indeed allows me to talk about you more efficiently.

Note how it's not meaningful in any way and in fact prevents me from understanding you. I have just efficiently disregarded you. Are you happy with that kind of label and that kind of treatment? Well, neither are other people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10442869
> Note how it's not meaningful in any way

This is true. The label has no meaning. It's just their for communication purposes.

> in fact prevents me from understanding you

It does no such thing. If you want to understand me, then try and understand me. If you don't, then don't. That's your decision. A decision completely independent of how you label me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439515
Manga has never been a nerd hobby.

[Anonymous No.]

I hope it never becomes cool to be an otaku. self-hatred is what drives all the creativity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443442
That used to be true for me for a while actually.
At this point, though, it does the opposite.

I don't finish anything anymore since, because I am shit, obviously what I create is shit and a disgrace to the earth, which would be better without it.

[Anonymous No.]

I guess it's nice that the label is losing its negative effects. On the other hand this growth in popularity also seems to take a toll on the creativity of new works as things become more commercialized. Fortunately it seems like, at least as of now, some unique things are coming out and the doujin culture is very much alive still.

I just hope there won't be a concentrated effort by big companies attracted to the otaku culture for profit to drive the (competing) doujin scene out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439582
Agreed. There is a major difference between those that were always "Nerds/Geeks" because it was a part of who they are, and those that willingly take up the label because it's "Cool" to. The funny thing being, "Nerd/Geek" is a static label that applies to a fluid concept, so the very definition of what qualifies as either of those terms can change, depending upon what society chooses to define them as.

I'm not going to touch on the "A True Fan" argument, because that shitstorm won't get us anywhere productive. However, I will say this. I remember the days when being a "Gamer" meant you were the strange kid. Why would anyone want to sit in front of a Commodore64 when they could go play in their tree house? Nowadays, everyone and their dog is a "Gamer". But the dilution of the label simply means you have subcultures within the Gamer Community form, and not all of them fall under what the "Old-School Gamers" find realistic towards the Gamer label.

I suspect it'll be the same way with Anime/Manga, really. You'll have multiple communities, each labelling themselves something different under the same blanket-label of "Otaku", even though several community members have never heard of classics such as Banner of the Stars, Astro Boy, Ninja Scroll, and Daemono Hunter Yohko

[Anonymous No.]

Is it possible that in order to gain a larger audience and sell more of their shit the industry made being a nerd cool? In America they pretty much did that to sell all of the useless tech. I dont know whether or not japan employs that tactic but they probably do.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm not Japanese so I'm not an Otaku and not under Japan's society judgement (at least moral) so I don't give a bloody fuck.

I also think the NEET are taking the new scapegoat for all evils in the world and your Otaku are now in the way to become the Asiatic analogous of our cute nerds, AKA, Otakool. This is not a joke.

There's one way out and only one, a second season of LoGH but now with catgirls.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443534
>On the other hand this growth in popularity also seems to take a toll on the creativity of new works as things become more commercialized.

The funny thing is it's the exact opposite circumstances but the same result.
Games become popular in the west - we want the WoW/CoD/Skyrim audience > all games become similar to one another through trying to appeal to a larger audience

Otaku becomes more profitable - we want the lolicon/fujoshi/VN reader/cowtits/13 year old niche > anime becomes diverse but each niche becomes closer to being this cookie cutter recipe of things to toss in and ship out.


>I just hope there won't be a concentrated effort by big companies attracted to the otaku culture for profit to drive the (competing) doujin scene out.

I don't think doujin competes. Companies sell everything from coasters to bags to figurines. I don't think some porn, music, and crappy games are any sort of competition.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443672
Can you call yourself an otaku based on the western new definition, though?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443713
Well, I'm not a heavy buyer of media and merchandising, I have a few figures and other objects I've gathered through the years, I spend around 100€ each year but what I watch/read/play is worth much, much more.

I'm not the kind of consumist that the new age definition wants to exist so they can be milked by corporations.

Aside from that I spend 8-16 hours every day listening to Touhou music/playing videogames or VNs/watching anime/reading manga and browsing 4chan with rare exceptions for other activities.

Judge yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443713
>western new definition of the word otaku
L O L ! The people on /a/ call themselves otakus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443770
I don't agree with the western definition but this is how languages work. Just like calling a black person a "negro" wasn't offensive several decades ago, otaku has developed a meaning by itself in the west, for better or for worse. But I don't recall them calling themselves otaku when I went there occasionally. They tend to see themselves more as disguised normal people that just happen to like anime. Most of them have jobs and don't even care about anything of otaku culture, aside of anime. Most of them also simply refuse to learn japanese because of some strange pride they hold.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443781
I'm gonna break your post in a few pieces because you've said too much.

First when someone says Otaku in Japan he's referring to a Japanese Otaku, in the western we use it to label both the Japanese and the western people, time ago it used to mean the same here than there, a Japanese person with the hobbies we share here, but the term has been bastardized by wapanese people and Dragon Ball loving teenagers who needed a place to fit, it has gone from "Japanese nerd" to "Nerd who likes Japanese things/ A Japanese thing" and that's probably the meaning of it when the average 4chan user says that word.

>Most of them also simply refuse to learn Japanese because of some strange pride they hold.
Admitting that your media is not good enough to please you and that you're even going to learn another language can be mortifying, also there's still the stigma about the Otaku being pedophiles due to lolicon doujinshi, culture and sexualization of prepubescent girls.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443534
>Otaku - 20 years of history
>1980s

But, the 80s were 30 years ago. Shouldn't it be 30 years of history?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10444012

the peak of negative stereotyping was during the late 80s and early 90s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otakuegativity

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443770
They do now?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443370
A label predisposes people to make rash judgements about you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443370
The problem is, people rarely want to truly understand other people. What they want to understand is the big scary world around them, and they're happy to stop trying to learn about all those scary alien things as soon as they encounter any kind of label that superficially yet sufficiently describes them and gives guidelines on them how to treat them. This can be extremely harmful to everyone involved, for which there are numerous examples, some of them triggering the Godwin's Law.

That is not to say there aren't good and necessary labels. Most common words are such, like "red" or "blue" or "tree" or "human". This, however, doesn't mean any random label will be good or useful.

>>10443621
But "otaku" doesn't even mean "anime fan". "Otaku" is just that, a geek, an outcast obsessed with some particular topic. Your point stands, but your comparison to the gaming community is weak. This is not a generation change, or other change in demographics. This is just the idea of being an obsessive fan of something going mainstream (maybe not fully approved of, but at least recognized as something relatively common and normal).

[Anonymous No.]

>>10443674
From my armchair gaijin understanding of doujin market, they're also selling everything from coasters to bags to figurines.

>>10443713
>western new definition

God no. There's still time. We can still fight it.

>>10443770
As people have already pointed out, many people on /a/, probably a majority, would never get caught calling themselves "otaku". Sadly, not because it's a stupid label, but because many of them refuse to accept they're obsessed with something Japanese. It's not even /jp/'s "stop thinking I can help you with your Japan trip just because I like Japanese games", it's "stop thinking I like Japanese cartoons just because I watch them".

>>10443825
>"Nerd who likes Japanese things/ A Japanese thing"

We now have "weeaboo" for that. (You'll hear people here and there complaining that it was supposed to mean something else, but no-one listens to them.)

[Anonymous No.]

so what's a "joshi"?

[Anonymous No.]

I forget. What is a joshi again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446885
whore

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446858
>>10446885
The 女子 in fujoshi, I'd assume?

[Anonymous No.]

it kinda attracts crap like this. By this point the western definition isn't really that different from Nerd as in "lel I,m such I nerd I read a word today!"

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446858
>>10446885
short for fujoshi
>>10446896
that's "young girl"

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446944

The lecturer did mention fujoshi, but the particular joshi he's talking about in this sense is a new "old" word that is gaining new meaning, just like otaku did back in the 80s.

The "joshi" is a self defining Japanese women who, as a tendency, prefers being single and generally living life as if she were (as the word suggests) a "young girl". However, there is no age limit for the concept of joshi. The professor mentioned that the oldest "joshi" he's encountered during interviews is 65.

The lecturer (a sociologist) made the case that this new term (which is connected to the word otaku both by its linguistic history as a old word with new meaning and the fact that joshi and otaku sometimes overlap) is being coined in response to changes in Japanese society related to feminism, birth rates, economic stagnation, and all the other fun stuff that make modern day Japan.

Interestingly he did NOT connect the concept of joshi with the idea of kekondekinai onna or himono onna. I think the reason for this is because both of these terms were coined by conservative branches of the Japanese media eager to label the women who choose these behaviors as "abnormal". By self selecting the "joshi" title, the magazines and other elements that make up the growing joshi subculture turn those decisions into positive self identity.

I have an interview with the lecturer next week, so I can ask him about this stuff.

[Anonymous No.]

Also I'm going to show him this thread. He's over here in America for the express purpose of studying American "otaku" (part of his project is sussing out the definition of that like you guys are doing in this thread) and I think it would please him to know that this discussion is taking place on a copy of a Japanese imageboard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446967
That's just asking for everybody to put their worst face forward for the camera.

What constitutes "otaku" has been hashed out before in previous threads also, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446961
so what, does it mean "strong black women who don't need no man"?

[Anonymous No.]

I am impressed by this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446969
I debated mentioning that last part about showing this thread to him. I sort of planned on doing it all along if there was some good discussion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446974
I suppose, after a fashion.

Whereas previous Japanese women defined themselves either by their adherence or rejection of their traditional roles and behaviors (which itself was measured by their acceptance of more masculine qualities or feminine qualities) the "joshi" appears to be defining themselves outside of their relationship to men.

The concept isn't "we don't need men", but rather appears to be "we don't need to define ourselves as either the opposite of men or as the same as men."

In practice, this means that joshi will not worry excessively about getting married (like they're "supposed" to) and finding a boyfriend, along with all the accompanying "feminine" worries about keeping up with particular fashions or avoiding certain hobbies. They will instead just do what they want, whether it be eating in an all female group at an izakaya or picking up a Nikkon J1 (which, if you look at the Japanese ad copy, is marketed pretty heavy towards this new group).

Their self definition is not "one of the girls" or "one of the guys", but rather just "person". If that makes any sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446987
wow, how edgy and totally against society's oppressive standards

So, I guess this is going to be a huge joke in a couple years and everyone will use it ironically. Or does japanese culture not work like american?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446995
Have you not read anything he's been saying?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446997
Well, it feels open to interpretation to me, and I'm too use to societies and internet duchebags that either lean all the way in one direction or the other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446999
Your interpretation sucks. It has no basis in anything he said, or even reality. How do you even come up with "edgy" and "huge joke"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447002
I'm just used to humans who actively try to defy society and simple manners, and "feminists" who basically just think men should have all their rights taken away. I guess maybe I lost too much faith in humans, I judge people too quickly, sorry.

[Anonymous No.]

that chair when no scruffy, vaguely stinky fujoshi gf to bully with penis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447009
One of the points made was that joshi differ from their predecessors in that they _aren't_ going out of their way to actively defy Japanese expectations of femininity. You somehow seemed to conclude the opposite. ???

The first actual Western parallel I thought to the so-called kekondekinai/himono-onna was actually sometjhing that people observe in males. It's something people in the West (frequently conservatives lamenting the decline of society) refer to as "prolonged adolescence" or less politely, "men who refuse to grow up." People have written a shitload about that, but I don't know if any of it is actually scholarly. Loosely, it's about men in their thirties who don't think about family, marriage, or job advancement and spend all their time doing whatever instead.

In many ways it's (obviously) not quite the same, but it's what came to mind. What the situation is like for Japanese men, I don't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447021
Oh, so they literally don't give a shit? Not trying to be proud or in anyone's face about it?
Man japan sounds so nice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447028
... it's not like you have to live in Japan to do what you like. Expectations are less rigid in the West than there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447038
Yeah, but in the west everyone wants to defy absolutely everyone they can and be as proud and obnoxious about it as possible. It's absolutely apish behavior and after seeing it I can't see many humans as being anything other than animals with thumbs. It's pretty depressing. If they aren't in a pseudo-gang then they have awful political ideals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447040
>in the west everyone wants to defy absolutely everyone they can
Who the fuck are you hanging out with?

It's not anyone above the age of twenty-five, I'm pretty sure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439665
Lack of knowledge of the culture of the country who'se people's language you're translating, either from or into, is a major flaw as a translator.

Also his english vocabulary is either limited, or he doesn't understand semantics and that nuances are of importance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447043
He sounds like he's drawn his conclusions about Western society entirely from interacting with people between the age of eighteen and twenty-two.

If you grow up a little you'll realize that not everybody in the world acts like a rebellious adolescent. Society is bigger than that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447061
I suppose you're right, I'm just overly critical so I cling to flaws, not to mention usually the loudest are the ones to get heard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447043
He reads 4chan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446961
So are fujoshi considered part of that trend, or is the similarity of the terms just a coincidence?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447113
It's a coincidence in that both use the kanji for "joshi" because both subgroups are collections of women, but the meaning of the terms are very different.

However, I wonder if there is any overlap between the two? Yet, both of the joshi idea is that they are moving into hobbies/subculture worlds that were typically male dominated without subscribing to the masculine values of those worlds. Since fujoshi are and always have been female I'm not sure that they would "count" themselves among the joshi. Or maybe they would, especially if they were more open and less secretive about their love of hot man-on-man actions.

This might be a good question to ask Ikeda-sensei this week.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10446961
So they're manchildren, but with women. great.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447707
Womanchildren.

Literally.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447790
No, not at all.

The womanchild label might be applicable to fujoshi, but not to joshi.

Joshi have their own fashion magazines, travel deals from booking companies and JR. They are only "little girls" in the sense that they are unmarried and reject the life of service and rule restricted existence that comes with gaining the label of "housewife" or "mother".

In other words rather than being forced to care for elderly parents, their dumb husbands, and compete with other bithces in the PTA, they go out to clubs and eat ice cream and travel and generally enjoy life.

(This is from their perspective obviously)

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447837

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447837
Not metaphorically literally. Literally literally.

And, of course, it's all debatable because it depends on what you consider maturity. For some, it'd mean caving in to social norms and doing what you're expected to. I'm not convinced, but neither am I by fashion magazines.

That's just what we get when we treat loaded language too seriously, though. Better just recognize it as such, and therefore ultimately meaningless, and move on.

[Anonymous No.]

Normals are always going to change their minds about what words mean. You can't stop that. And why would you even want to?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10447912

Well, the label of joshi doesn't have anything to do with "maturity" (at least the way I think you're using it) and everything to do with rejecting social expectations of behavior when you reach certain life stages, defined BOTH by age and by life events.

I think the way you're using "maturity" in this sense is a sense of child versus adult. In other words, a child can't control their temper while an adult can. A child has poor impulse control but an adult has excellent impulse control. A child isn't capable of diligent discipline while an adult is. The way that joshi are viewed is that they are full, capable adults but they reject the expectation that they behave in certain ways that would constrain their self expression in drastic, very controlling ways.

As an example of this, it's useful to examine the Japanese government's (real complete lack of) welfare state until the relative recent past. While elder care is of course changing, when universal elder health care was rolled out in the 1970s the government spoke often about the three stages that men go through. First they are cared for by their mothers, then they are cared for by their wives when they are married, then they are cared for by their daughter-in-law when they reach retirement age. Notice that this scheme doesn't talk about the three stages of care for girls. The purpose of this was multifold, but among the reasons were cost savings (Japan's superhigh government debt is a thing of the very recent past, as they actually have one of the smallest governments and number of government programs in the world when you talk about number of civil servants and amount spent on government programs) and a defense of what was seen as a "Japanese style welfare state" in which the family unit was responsible for the majority of care.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10448408

contd-

So, when you look at it from a Japanese woman's perspective they are basically given the choice between drudgery in the household (in some sense) and an unmarried life with more freedom. Indeed, from a Western perspective the joshi might be considered more "mature" than many Japanese young people. They typically have their own apartment, their own (relatively) high paying job, and a social circle of numerous, real life people.
I think it's also telling that the conservative media doesn't attack then as "children". It attacks them as women who aren't "doing the right thing". I'm not if it is collectively remembered, but several years ago during the first Abe administration his health minister referred to women as "baby making machines" and blamed Japan's lack of population growth on their lack of self sacrifice. That mentality is what the joshi is a reaction to.

It's interesting to note that the idea of herbivore men is sort of related to the joshi phenomena. Both reject the social expectations of what they're supposed to do with their lives. In the herbivore case, it's find a full time life employment job and work from 7am to 8pm every day of your life until you retire. Why on earth would any rational , young, energetic man choose that path when it isn't clear that it will lead to happiness (which is one of the many reasons cited by herbivore men when asked about their choices)? With many young people frozen out of the hiring process, the Japanese economy in stagnation for basically the last 20 years, issues with education inequality, and a host of other issues that modern Japan faces I don't think it's that surprising that people start to question the social model that they're supposed to follow if, from their view, it hasn't resulted in a good outcome.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10448408
>>10448411
As long as your point is "joshi are not perceived as immature in the context of Japanese culture, as opposed to (wo)manchildren of the occident in the context of the culture of the occident", I see it now and have nothing to add.

It's when you begun, without explanation, adding a particular imagery of maturity to the mix that the misunderstanding occured. Because if we can use some arbitrary standards, who gets to decide which standard we use? There are just two options that might lead to meaningful results - some objective cultural context, or mutual agreement between all sides of the conversation. And the standard that determines anything by quality of travel deals and a size of social circle is neither. You yourself described Japanese social norms as entirely different from that, and it's also, obviously, not what I'd personally consider particularly convincing (we're on /jp/, remember?). Hence my reply of which the entire point was to point out the subjectivity and ultimate meaninglessness of it and, by extension, the terms that it's being used to define.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10448857
Yeah you hit it exactly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439653
>those are only in the capital
When was the last time you went to Japan, 20 years ago? Shit is everywhere in most prefectures.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439301
>"joshi" to describe a new class of woman.

You mean 肉女子?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10449517
No, the meat eating woman is classified different because she is a gender reversal, rather than a rejection of gender. The meat eating woman is after what men were "supposed" to go after, hence the dicotomy.

Of course, none of these labels are solid and a joshi could easily have aspects of a meat eating woman and vice versa. The real interesting thing that is going on is BOTH the rejection AND reversal of gender roles, albeit in somewhat limited contexts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10439301
>His basic premise was that otaku has lost most of the negative stereotype that it had in the 1980s and that as otaku culture has grown in value

How many times are we gonna have this discussion?