2hu lore thread

[Anonymous No.]

What's Yukari's endgame here?
Is this why she's absent from the dangerous Urban Legend incident? To observe them for her own's scheme later on?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44588979
Yukari was simply fooling around

[Anonymous No.]

>>44588979
Yukari has been well-established to have a weird grudge against the Lunarians. It's not at all out of character for her to try to seize another opportunity to try to fuck with them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44590725
you mean job again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44590736
I mean be put into bondage by the better blonde again.

[Anonymous No.]

I was just thinking about this specific ending minutes ago...

Her endgame could be as simple as coming off as mysterious to Marisa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44590947
She wants to get a better look this time
>>44591058
She wants to be publicly viewed as being a mysterious mastermind, but she's always been a bit of a goofball from the start; compare her appearance to the protagonists in PCB vs her profile where she took a lot of naps. Capable when it counts, but doesn't know how to interact with people in a way where she doesn't spill her spaghetti. Characters like Suika who've known her since forever has seen through her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591223
I can't blame her, I want psycopath moon panties as much as the next person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591223
And that's why she's wonderful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591258
The Yuk is a lovable dork.
Anyway, since this is a lore thread: unless Yukari is monologuing to herself or explaining something to Ran (and even then she speaks cryptically and confuses the poor fox), I think it's pretty safe to say that anything she says can be taken with a grain of salt. It could be helpful information, or it could be some bullshit wrapped behind seven layers of "mystery" and doesn't mean anything outside of existing to fuck with people.
In the OP, Yukari showed up unannounced, asked Marisa to show her the orb, said that it "could change Gensokyo even more," then left without elaborating or pondering the orb and ultimately left Marisa with more questions than answers. Personally, I don't think there was any point to that whole exchange but to mess with Marisa's head and put her on her toes.

[Anonymous No.]

Do afterlife realms need human belief to exist? Hecatia mentioned that there's a hell for the Otherworlds like Gensokyo, a hell for the Moon and a hell for the Earth, does that means that humans in the outside world still go to the afterlife regardless of their beliefs?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591245
I'd say "Don't we all?" But there's a strangely high number of people that hate the Watatsukis in spite of them being better people than 90% of Gensokyo's named cast.
>>44591445
*Lovable if you ignore her crimes against humanity.
She likely has a vague idea of what the orb does, but given her internal monologue in both CiLR and A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violent makes it very clear she's just a normal white woman beneath the veneer of being a mastermind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591478
>there's a strangely high number of people that hate the Watatsukis
I mean they are pretty terrible on the face of it, but the sex appeal is on par with the sexiest of the hags. Toyohime is pretty nice though, it's her sister that is the mean one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591545
meant for>>44591520

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591545
what the hell does that have anything to do with what i said? is this a bot reply?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591545
Yorihime, while stern, doesn't seem all that bad of a person, plus, between Toyohime's interaction with Yukari (really, she would've been entirely justified in exterminating the latter on the spot given that it's the second time that stunt was pulled) and the fact that she quickly refused when Eirin suggested the easiest way to get rid of the fisherman that found himself in the Lunar Capital was to kill him, that already puts them head and shoulders above a good portion of Gensokyo's residents, who include murderers, people who enable murderers, and worst of all Satoris.
I guess the worst thing you could say she does is treating moon rabbits like pets, but compared to the top brass of the Lunarians that gave the Hourai Branches to humans as symbols of authority, knowing it would cause bloody succession crises, it's not all that bad.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591596
>and worst of all Satoris.
what's wrong wirh satoris? They only torment your mind until you are nothing but a soulless, mindbroken shell that can't think

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591625
>what's wrong with satoris?
One of them is insufferably smug while also having a victim mentality about her ability, the other is literally mindless, and they're both monkeys.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591682
>they're both monkeys
So are you, human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591708
I'm an ape, not some shitflinging monkey. Get it right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591721
Monkey is monkey.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44590947
keeners, please

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591596
>"(...) and worst of all, Satoris."
patche, please. just get over it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44588979
The real reason Yukari didn't interfere in the Urban Legend incident was that she remembered the stories about it that Renko told her, passed down from Sumireko. Recognizing it, she took a strict nonintervention stance.

[Anonymous No.]

The smudged text that appears in PCB extra is a ref to Tamano no mae, not sure if it might be just random ZUN thing or a ZUN just forgot considering the pic was also used in phantasm, but I think it would be fitting for Tamano to go to hell and join a gang there.
>>44591478
Hard to tell, since afterlife believes stay a lot more than magic believes and such, guess lunarians would also think of afterlife if they are at war with the goddess of hell.
Still considering that unborn babies go to stack stones I would say that any soul would end up somewhere in an afterlife.
Maybe believes can change a bit where you end or maybe everyone gets buddhist treatment or something.
>>44591556
Could just be horny, but I guess that the himes seem to be pretty decent, unless they had to do with transforming some earthlings into youkai, but maybe Kaguya was just messing around when she said that.
>>44591721
Satories don't have a tail, should that make them also apes?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591596
>Satoris
You don't pluralize japanese proper names and proper nouns, anon

[Anonymous No.]

There's no way that the reason magic and such disappeared from the Outside World is that humans just stopped believing in it one day right? That makes no sense when you think about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44594581
Satori is the name of a species of youkai so it is not a proper noun

[Anonymous No.]

>>44595525
Do not underestimate the power of the mind!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591478
>Do afterlife realms need human belief to exist?
No? Not every spiritual things rely on human belief to exist. It's only responsible for the creation of youkai and gods (though even it's possible that there are gods born before human civilization).
Ghost and spirits don't rely on human belief either because these are also part of human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44588979
I don't think Yukari has a endgame. But, for what it's worth, I could see her plotting to screw with the lunarians some more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591520
>*Lovable if you ignore her crimes against humanity.
You murder thousands of outsiders and keep an entire population locked up against their will while violently crushing any dissent, and suddenly you're committing "Crimes against humanity".

In the past, they just called that sound governance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44595699
>Not every spiritual things rely on human belief to exist.
But most afterlives are managed by gods or demons. How would heaven or hell work if there are no gods around to manage it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44596508
Either some gods/demons are exception or they feed on the grudge of human spirits or some other means. I mean, most people don't believe in Lunarians yet they exist and thriving, and before moving to the moon they were former terrestial gods. Ministry of Right and Wrong must be full of hyper-powerful spiritual beings yet they can't rely on the miniscule belief of outside world or even Gensokyo humans who also don't know them very well, so they just sorta exist with their powerful authority.
My theory is gods and youkai that were born from human belief and the ones that perhaps just existed like humans do are different in nature, but who knows if ZUN will ever touch the subject.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44596738
I tend ot assume, at least to a certain extent, that the ministry of right and wrong tends to be more of a case of "Small fish in a tiny pond". Hecatia is noted as being leagues above everybody in Gensokyo, any the Wicca faith only has, what, a few million followers?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44596738
>most people don't believe in Lunarians
Any given person that practices Shinto is more likely to believe in the top brass of the Lunarians like Tsukuyomi than to know about most of the various Kunitsukami, with the main exception being the gods of the Suwa Shrine.
>>44596449
Doubling down isn't going to make anyone want to bang you, Yukari.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44599718
Amaterasu and Susanoo, sure, they're famous as shit, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the Kunitsukami are bigger than Tsukuyomi, who barely has any myths associated with him and mostly rides off his more famous siblings.
There's no way you're going to convince me that Tsukuyomi is at the top when figures like Ookuninushi are around.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44591520
Nothing will make me not want to jackhammer the hag into a pregnancy with triplets

[Anonymous No.]

Strangely enough Seiga made a dismissive reference to Jesus Christ, stating that his divinity is mediocre compared to Miko
Likewise, crosses don't seem to work well on the vampire sisters, this might either imply that christianity is weak in gensokyo or it's not disbelieved in enough to be powerful, or maybe christians aren't as fervent in their beliefs as gensokyan humans who are full-on superstitious schizos and gives out more power to the youkai than the abrahamic entities can receive

[Anonymous No.]

>>44600943
It's not that crosses don't work well against the sisters, it's that they do nothing and the sisters actively collect them to decorate the mansion with. There's even some flavor text talking about how the crosses may be from past vampire hunters that got run out/died. It's also implied that a cross doesn't work on vampires and that the belief was a later edition to their lore. more than likely it was hardcore Christians that ended up getting turned along the way and had a crisis of faith when seeing something from their past life. Remi amd Flan don't care about the religion so it doesn't bother them. Coincidentally, using the mental layer thing it could explain away the "vampires have to count things" story because some OCD guy got turned and had his senses heightened from the change, then had spaghetti fall out of his pockets when trying to hunt and now he's the guy everyone laughs at and have the rest of the vampires a bad name.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44600000
okuuninushi is okina. or do you believe derivative deities can coexist?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44600943
>Strangely enough Seiga made a dismissive reference to Jesus Christ, stating that his divinity is mediocre compared to Miko
I for one simply do not trust the opinions of clergymen from one religion about another. Doesn't matter if it's a bishop on Buddhism or a Taoist immortal on Christianity. And I especially do not trust what Seiga, specifically, says.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44601938
Ookuninushi has been stated as having been sealed away by the Lunarians somewhere. He definitely has an identity of his own separate from whatever syncretism bullshit Okina has going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44602677
If memory serves correct, he's the third "hidden" deity in Moriya shrine. Don't quote me on that, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44602888
That's his son, Takeminakata.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44600943
I don't think Remilia or Seiga are all that trustworthy. Though, in the case of the latter I imagine it's that a crucial difference between Faith, which is canonically a weakness of all youkai, and the physical object of a faith.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44599718
>Doubling down isn't going to make anyone want to bang you, Yukari.
You say that as if most fans aren't still irrationally horny for her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44602597
Considering how much of a failure Miko is. It's just Seiga trying to hype up her student.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603450
If youkai are really just imaginary friends how would it feel like to cum inside their magical body?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603469
Miko is mostly pretty based though. Her worst quality is not going on a one man crusade to save Gensokyo from Youkai tyranny unless the Human villagers ask her to take on that role.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603482
Probably not that different from having sex with a human. I would tell you all about it, but you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603486
>one man
Not anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603506
It's a manner of speech.

Frankly, despite her occasionally acting like Doctor Doom she's probably one of the more benevolent and well meaning people. She has a actual level of self awareness that 99% of the cast lacks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603463
>You say that as if most fans aren't still irrationally horny for her.
They would be horny for any smug, big titted woman, Yukari isn't any more significant to them than a cum rag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603565
You are horny for Yukari because she is a smug blonde with fat tits. I am horny for Yukari because she is a manipulative scheming evil woman nobody in their right mind SHOULD put their dick inside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603672
Evil woman I'll cede, but she's neither manipulative nor a schemer. If SSiB had happened on a bad day Toyohime could very well have just fanned her out of existence and there'd be nothing she could do about it.
Basically, if you want a chuuni dork who has never experienced the touch of a man, more power to you, but I'll stick with the bondage blonde myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603672
>nobody in their right mind SHOULD put their dick inside [Yukari]
For my safety or everyone else's?
Either way the answer is youkai kids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603708
If you show that yook even the slightest bit of affection you can expect to be locked up in the Yakumo Estate, never to see the Outside World or even the rest of Gensokyo again. So it's partially your safety, and partially for the safety of every woman you've known in your life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603694
>she's neither manipulative nor a schemer
Bro, your Forbidden Scrollery?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603723
>In the estate
Lol, you wish.

You know the hands coming out of her gaps? That's what happend to Yukari previous lovers. That or she ate them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603723
What happens if you cheat on Yukari with her computer?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603672
I get that. Yukari is way hotter as a serial killer who eats people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603760
She looks at you funny and asks you why the hell you want to do it with a dirty kitsune instead of her.

And then she gaps you back to the bedroom/rapedungeon

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603213
kanako's husband!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603737
How about your Cage in Lunatic Runagate and A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violet, where we get to see inside Yukari's head and witness firsthand that she's basically just an ordinary white woman?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603875
Ah, it's you. Never mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44595525
It's kinda hard to disprove stuff that already has manifested in the physical plane, maybe magic advances with time just like science and that they didn't had stuff like flight in humans before gensoukyo, since such advanced magic would be hard to debunk unless you have some sort of anti-magic tool or similar.
As for how it disappeared, my headcanon is that the best in spiritual/magical arts went to war against youkai, died all, some kept fighting as vengeful spirits making youkai avoid all human contact, then only the ones that had any spiritual knowledge left were kinda unreliable and could be called out as con artists.
Gods might have become lazy, and ignored a bit humans until they learned the hard way that they need faith to life.
>>44600943
>crosses don't seem to work well on the vampire sisters
Could also be that the cross works as a catalysts of spiritual power, so if a believer holds it against a vampire it might work, but without it it's just a simple shape that resembles the kanji for ten.
>>44601358
>because some OCD guy got turned and had his senses heightened from the change, then had spaghetti fall out of his pockets
LMAO, guess the that one weirdo effect would explain differences in vampire weaknesses in every story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44605397
>As for how it disappeared, my headcanon is that the best in spiritual/magical arts went to war against youkai, died all, some kept fighting as vengeful spirits making youkai avoid all human contact, then only the ones that had any spiritual knowledge left were kinda unreliable and could be called out as con artists.
Personally, Dies Irae still has my favorite headcanon for "fading magic" in any setting where it's applicable. That is to say, magic isn't "fading" in the first place, it's just that the requirements for something to be called magic are that much higher than in the past, and even fewer people are willing to put in the effort to achieve that when most of what "magic" accomplished previously can be easily replicated with science. Given how the Mental Layer is implied to work, and the fact that Shikigami are likened to computers (though really, they're more like advanced AIs,) that theory could apply to Touhou's lore as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44605397
>It's kinda hard to disprove stuff that already has manifested in the physical plane, maybe magic advances with time just like science and that they didn't had stuff like flight in humans before gensoukyo, since such advanced magic would be hard to debunk unless you have some sort of anti-magic tool or similar.
This is the biggest problem with settings like this. If you can empirically prove something exists, science will not disprove its existence somehow. Hell during the Meiji era, Japanese scientists discovered a few things like beriberi that were largely localised to Japan so it's not like their scientists just blindly refused to believe in things they could verify the existence of.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44605397
>"Could also be that the cross works as a catalysts of spiritual power, so if a believer holds it against a vampire it might work"

100% this, Remi doesn't give two sh@7s about shinto, buddhism and Taoism, and still take damage from ofudas, gohei, running water (which is unironicale considered sacred in shinto, unlike still water) and onions beans (this one acquired the moment she entered genoskyo, all because takashi ,the rice farmer associated her kanji with oni)
we can conclude that she can also take damage from byakuren sutras or seiga ritualistic gimmicks. the SDM feels more like western refugees for a reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44606214
*Onions beans

[Anonymous No.]

The wordfilter got another one.

[Anonymous No.]

Where's that one anon(s) who was trying to route the three worms/corpses from their body?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44606247
Many such cases.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44606502
It's me. How come?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603749
This isn't the grimsokyo thread
Get better taste

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607168
>This isn't the grimsokyo thread
Canon Yukari is that messed up.

[Anonymous No.]

Where exactly do the human spirits in the animal realm come from? Are they actually humans send to hell or some kind of human like apparitions? They apparently live in a forest and are hunted/used by the animal spirits for fun, which certainly sounds like a ironic hell fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44603708
Yukari stops being evil when she's pregnant
Saving lives means keeping her constantly pregnant

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607177
Pretty sure it's heavily based off the Buddhist animal hell, which means you gotta sin to get damned there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607178
But I only want to impregnate Yukari when she's evil.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607183
Going by the wiki, not the most reliable source I know, it's not actually hell though but a realm adajacent to hell. Like

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607194
>Yukari is evil
>Have sex with her.
>She gets pregnant.
>She stops being evil.
>She gives birth
>She starts being evil again.
Sounds like a neat cycle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607208
*Like purgatory or Detroit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607177
In Buddhism humans can get reincarnated to 6 different realms after they die depending on their sin, among them are hell and heaven. Animal Realm is one of them, which exist to punish/contain humans who gave in to animalistic desires.
It's likely the same with Touhou even if one source stated you'll only either get reincarnated, get sent to heaven, purgatory or hell. Animal Realm proves that there are other realms besides them.
Also, based on this Animal Realm is NOT hell, nor it is some kind of its derivative/variation and it's never regarded as such in Touhou, even if it's also full of suffering. Human realm isn't called human hell for the same reason. They are simply on certain scale between 6 realms where they still accumulate karma, even in Heaven.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607168
>This isn't the grimsokyo thread
all lore threads are grimsokyo threads

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607356
Will you fuck off? We don't like your kind here, grimfag

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607277
Guess that makes me feel a bit less bad for the human spirits, if nothing else.

>Human realm isn't called human hell for the same reason.
They have Gensokyo for that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607363
Name a part of Touhou lore that isn't grim as fuck in some way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607363
Don't seethe over the truth, anon

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607374
I'm leaning towards the Indigo pill. With the added caveat that Gensokyo being totally destroyed is both inevitable and good. There is no change, very few of it's inhabitants deserve change, but the place is probably doomed long term.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607397
I'd tend to agree, with the added added caveat of that being more a matter of what Gensokyo represents (i.e. clinging to a deluded view of the past in a way that results in harm to just about everyone involved.) I'd say that there are a decent number of named characters that deserve change, and most of the villagers we see in the series are actually pretty decent, but the very nature of Gensokyo is undeniably unsustainable, particularly when its own Sages admit as much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607374
I'm honestly feel like chugging on some white pills the more official stuff I read. I don't mind maneating and existential horror stuff, but the way most characters are portrayed is just the opposite of fun, just misserable assholes who respect no one and don't care if anyone around them lives or dies, themselves included. Makes them feel samey. Sure it may be fun the first time you play and have all those cheeky retorts, but after a billionth time I'm starting to not see most characters as characters, just edgy shit generators, like some 15-year-olds fanfiction writers with about as much personality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607363
Based, but don't engage them. They're mostly underage and thrive off attention.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607418
>I'd say that there are a decent number of named characters that deserve change, and most of the villagers we see in the series are actually pretty decent
I guess that's fair. Totally destroyed does imply that the human village would be wiped out as well, and they most certainly don't deserve it. Same for a small list of named characters.

Though, at the very least, no matter what happens to Gensokyo, Mokou should be fine. Youmu as well, now that I think about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607370
Akyuu privately noting that humans getting in serious youkai trouble is so rare these days that it might not even be worth it to teach villagers to defend against youkai anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607484
You can always try reading the supplementary materials. They're a lot less assholish to each other there. It helps to remember that the games are when fighting's on offer and that the rest of the materials are where they're just goofing off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607484
Gensokyo is fucking scary but its not absolutely hellish. Don't expect to ever be able to visit Youkai mountain, Remilia, etc.
Honestly the worst part about Gensokyo is its size. I would quickly get tired of its limited area as someone who likes to explore even when its risky. It really isn't that big.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44606798
Just wondering if you were still around. Its an interesting process that I think does have some actual merit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607484
I get that. I personally fully embraced the grimdark, but I get that if you aren't into that it quickly starts to feel samey.

I would say there are good people in Gensokyo. Kasen is decent, Aunn is a good girl, Mokou is mostly nice despite her past of burning people alive. Even Marisa, despite her edges, is probably the most straightforwardly heroic protagonist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607562
>I would quickly get tired of its limited area as someone who likes to explore even when its risky. It really isn't that big.
You get to explore the village, and not much else. Every place outside of it is bad.

>Remilia,
Actually, you are pretty likely to meet her. She visits the village, and occasionally invites people to her party. She also can't eat villagers, meaning you don't even have to worry about accepting her invitation meaning you'll end up as the dessert. Just don't ask what the youkai food is made out of.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607525
You mean the PMISS epilogue? It's very questionable if that is still canon considering most of the lore established there has been thoroughly contradicted by later depictions.

>>44607553
>They're a lot less assholish to each other there
Depends. Some like Nitori, Aya, Mamizou, and Reimu are still pretty unpleasant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607484
>just edgy shit generators, like some 15-year-olds fanfiction writers with about as much personality.
Maybe if you only sum up their personality on how nice they are to humans.
They have more than just that, but I guess some people just goes to deep on self-inserting themselves in Gensokyo and become more concerned about moral and behaviour than anything, even if it's not the main point of the story.
Stop doing that and there probably won't be grimsokyo/cutesokyo narrative conflict nonsense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607605
>most of the lore established there has been thoroughly contradicted by later depictions.
NTA but that's a given even back when it was released. It was made clear from early on that a sizeable chunk of the youkai articles were co-authored by the characters in question, who have their own agendas. It's less that it was contradicted, and more that you have to take the time to read between the lines for any print-works that represent in-universe publications like PMiSS, BAiJR, and to a lesser extent, SoPM.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607620
Most of /jp/ is human, so for a lot of us it's kind of a deal-breaker to know someone will nonchalantly commit murder for shits and giggles.
>the main point of the story.
The main point of the story, especially recently, ends up being ZUN making political metacommentary, which he's even worse at than just regular storytelling. While he's fantastic at making an interesting setting, hand to god just about any other known Japanese writer would end up telling a more compelling story in his setting than he ever could.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607582
>grimdark
It's not even grimdark. It's textbook grimderp.
>THESE SILLY LITTLE GIRLS IN FRILLY DRESSES EAT PEOPLE AIEEEE SAVE MEEEE

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607621
Yeah, but even the stuff Akyuu personally notes about the human village is very questionable. Like magic being easily available or yokai exterminators living there. With a lot of old Touhou lore it's hard to say what is a actual retcon and what is just misinformation.

>>44607620
>Maybe if you only sum up their personality on how nice they are to humans.
NTA, but it's hard to be a fun person when you are a massive piece of shit. I would say probably the most fun evil character is Yukari and Mystia, and in both cases the reasons why they are fun is because the way their outward personality clashes with how monstrous they are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607621
I find it personally interesting after that bit of lore even exists at all, after it was basically soft revealed certain people in Gensokyo are editing the book to make sure youkai seem scarier.

[Anonymous No.]

Jesus exists in the Touhou universe, so just make use of God's power to lead a crusade into Gensokyo, purifying its lands of filth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607717
>crucifixes canonically do nothing against vampires
oh no no no no christbros??

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607681
Canon Touhou isn't grimdark mostly because it's always done from the perspective of the people in charge. The lore is grimdark, but teh stories are not. It's like doing a story in North Korea made from the perspective of the Kim family. Yeah, it's a dystopian setting build on human suffering. But the actual day to day business is probably mostly just funny.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607717
My headcanon reason is that Yukari avoids taking Christians to Gensokyo so god doesn't really give a fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607723
Don't need no damn crosses when I can shoot FUCKING LIGHTING outta my fingers

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607726
I wish people who actually consumed grimdark media would be the ones to discuss whether or not a setting qualifies as grimdark, instead of people who just think it's just dark fantasy yeah

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607553
>You can always try reading the supplementary materials
I'm talking exactly about them. At least half of the cast are assholes 24/7 and it bores me. Zounoses doujins feel less grim than canon to me because of this.
>>44607562
>>44607582
It really isn't as grimdark as some people think, but I think that because of this >>44607643 it's something worse. ZUN nowadays just want's to show his political views through his work, and it makes the setting what it is. Gensokyo feels less like a land of myth and more like Outside World in miniature, except instead of demon worshippers in power there are actual demons. And as long it's political commentary, it'll never get better because that's the point.
>>44607685
The way Akyuu described Human Village and the locals at first made me think that everyone was in on the whole "youkai need fear and sometimes meat" and just played along. Besides, PMiSS was written as a public document, a guide, no less, so I thought most of who could read in the Village read it. Then comes FS, and none of it is a thing. Maybe ZUN changed his mind and retconed it, maybe I just misunderstood.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607177
>>44607183
>>44607277
Animal realm and animal hell are two different concepts.
Animal hell, where former hunters are perpetually hounded and savaged by animals, is one of the many realms in Diyu/Jigoku like the hell of oil cauldrons or the hell or the flaying hell etc. They're all realms where a specific and usually ironic punishment/torture is inflicted upon the wicked.
Animal realm in the doctrine of reincarnation just refers to being reborn as an animal or another being on that level, it's not a place per se. It's like how biologists talk about the "animal kingdom" and "plant kingdom".

The Touhou place is supposed to be animal hell but uses the name of the Buddhist concept because ZUN is a pseud.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607786
>Gensokyo feels less like a land of myth and more like Outside World in miniature
It always has been. If you break the issues that Gensokyo and the real world face down to their fundamentals, they're quite literally the exact same. Human lives are valued less than the tools that were supposed to improve those lives. The only difference is whether those tools are mechanical, or in Gensokyo's case with kami and youkai, spiritual.

[Anonymous No.]

I think it was kind of hilarious that ZUN wanted Okina in a wheelchair to make a point about the disabled being the strongest. I don't really mind representation like that, but don't try and sugarcoat it.
Speaking of which, what's the deal with Okina's energy manipulation? Its said that she gained the power to manipulate life/mental energy out of pretty much nowhere. Is it something she gained as part of her whole multi-god thing or did Yukari feed her "P"s in her sleep to level her up?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607758
I mean, I'm a 40K fag and I would say canon Touhou is not grimdark. It's not even dark fantasy in the same way Game of Thrones or Elric is dark fantasy. The closest point of comparison would probably be the Lostbelts of FGO (Especially 6) or your average sociopathic Isekai. Just with more self awareness than the latter and lacking the fiery Apocalypse of the former.

It helps that Gensokyo is such a tiny insignificant part of the setting as a whole. Obviously, it's the center of the story but at all times you get the sense that 99% of the world couldn't care less. Genuinely grim dark stories tend to be defined by the setting as a whole being beyond help.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607844
>40k
That's extreme grimdark though and not really a good point of reference.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607844
>I'm a 40K fag
So am I. I'm also a linguistic purist annoyed by how the word "grimdark" has been cannibalising dark fantasy, when grimdark was coined to refer to a specific kind of dark (science) fantasy taken to such an exaggerated extreme it becomes almost a caricature of suffering where no character's actions ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things.

>>44607861
40k is the defining example that created the grimdark genre, not an extreme version of it. 40k is - or rather was - grimdark. Grimdark but specifically much less dark than 40k is not grimdark, it's just regular dark.

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is Grimmdark.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607643
>it's kind of a deal-breaker to know someone will nonchalantly commit murder for shits and giggles.
I mean, I kinda get putting yourself in the setting for immersion, even if it shouldn't be mandatory, but does people have to immediately apply and judge with their own morals, instead appreciating the setting for what it is?

>any other known Japanese writer would end up telling a more compelling story in his setting than he ever could.
That's given since he's writing for shmup game and worldbuilding. He's not a writer. More like programmer/musician with concept and ideas.
Maybe I should've said "the main point of the setting" instead.

[Anonymous No.]

Who enforces the rules of spellcards? What is the punishment for breaking them?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44600943
A bit on crosses affecting vampires, most vampire hunting practices were full of shit and full on superstitious. Even then its not the authority of those men to hunt them so their methods wouldn't have really worked anyways. Vampirism was a curse from God and punishment to live forever as a cursed being until they can repent for their crimes before God. It is not in the place of man to kill a vampire as their punishment is to live so a vampire hunter's method shouldn't actually work, or at least their power wouldn't come from Christianity.

Also sounds like Seiga is merely trash talking here. I doubt she ever met the guy, not sure when she was alive but it doubt it was during his days on earth

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607875
>40k is - or rather was - grimdark.
when did it all go so wrong...

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607927
They were a collaboration between Reimu and (implied) Yukari, so two of the most notoriously powerful people in the setting enforcing it under pain of possible death. Probably does wonders for compliance. If I recall correctly though, not everyone obeys them. Male youkai typically actually fight, which is also why they don't show up in the games (aside from Unzan) and also why Reimu and Marisa have both willing to try killing non-compliant youkai them on sight.
Or just giving you exactly what you want, if your name is Seija and you break the spell card rules so people hate you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607907
>but does people have to immediately apply and judge with their own morals, instead appreciating the setting for what it is?
I think the vast majority of people will agree murder is bad, Anon. Even if some people might say that there are cases where it's justified, the shit that characters like Murasa and Mystia get up to very much would be considered irredeemably evil by 99% of the population.
>instead appreciating the setting for what it is?
Stop beating around the bush and tell us what it is that you claim the point is, then. Because frankly, when I look at the messages ZUN tries to send with his stories, compared to the content of the stories themselves, I see a very poor attempt at an aesop that only succeeds in illustrating the man's lack of practical knowledge on the things he likes to make his metacommentary on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607786
>It really isn't as grimdark as some people think
The lore is grimdark as fuck. But I get what you are saying.

> nowadays just want's to show his political views through his work
He's been doing it since at least Bohemian. Probably even before then.

>Gensokyo feels less like a land of myth and more like Outside World in miniature,
I would say it's way worse than the outside world.

>And as long it's political commentary, it'll never get better because that's the point.
Well, yeah. But that's also why I think it's worse than the outside world. It reminds me of the old joke I had with a friend that we lived in the parody universe. Gensokyo is the warped parody version of the outside world.

>and the locals at first made me think that everyone was in on the whole "youkai need fear and sometimes meat" and just played along
I think that was the intention. Since then, canon has largely contradicted that idea. Overall, the setting has largely gone from being an optimistic setting with grim elements to just straight up dystopian.

>Maybe ZUN changed his mind and retconed it, maybe I just misunderstood.
I think the former, though like other anon said it's harder to say just because a lot of the information is unreliable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607806
Makes sense. That kind of stuff is common place in Touhou. Though it does make me wonder if the animal spirits aren't reincarnated humans or something weird like that.

>>44607817
To be fair, I think at some point Gensokyo was meant to be the better version of the outside world. But since then it's just warped into a even worse version. With ruthless material capitalist exploitation being replaced by ruthless spiritual emotional exploitation.

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou has always been in a weird position where it's both pretty dark (though more oppressive dread than gruesome death, for the most part), but also presented (in text) as being better than the outside world because people are more honest, I guess, but it never makes much sense.
Maybe Touhou would've been better off if it was the magical wonderland where humans could stand as equals to the supernatural threats pretty easily as it was described in the earliest games, which would make it much less dreadful, but now it's just in this bizarro state where it's clearly really backwards and dangerous but also a place where people have silly playfights and nothing has consequences.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607861
40K literally invented grimdark. The word itself comes from the blurb:
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the GRIM DARKNESS of the far future there is only war.
There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Now, I don't think it's unfair to say that Touhou is not THAT bad.

>>44607875
>I'm also a linguistic purist annoyed by how the word "grimdark" has been cannibalising dark fantasy, when grimdark was coined to refer to a specific kind of dark (science) fantasy taken to such an exaggerated extreme it becomes almost a caricature of suffering where no character's actions ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things.
I think there are a few basket cases like Dark Souls that very much walk the line between grimdark and just regular dark fantasy. Touhou isn't even close to that category though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607949
Honestly, the spellcard rules as a in universe idea very much feel like a voodoo shark. It's a explanation that only raises more questions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608152
It makes a little more sense when you approach it from the following set of assumptions:
>The world is full of beings who crave conflict and trouble
>Said beings have ridiculous power and are being forced to live closely to each other due to being crammed into a nature preserve creating a very bad MAD situation
>Said beings need a form of conflict resolution that lets them cause all the trouble they like without destroying the tiny little nature preserve they exist in to survive.
It's my headcanon, though a bit of Impossible Spell Card backs it up, that basically the system self-perpetuates out of fear of what happens if someone breaks it in a big enough way to make everyone start escalating and ruining things for everyone. Consider it like youkai self-policing themselves out of pragmatism.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608132
>Touhou has always been in a weird position where it's both pretty dark (though more oppressive dread than gruesome death, for the most part), but also presented (in text) as being better than the outside world because people are more honest, I guess, but it never makes much sense.
It's gone back and forth. The usual excuse in the earlier stories was less that it was more honest and more that humans were more spiritually developed than the outside world. The sealing club stories are probably the most open about this. That element seems to have basically gone away entirely though.

>Maybe Touhou would've been better off if it was the magical wonderland where humans could stand as equals to the supernatural threats pretty easily as it was described in the earliest games, which would make it much less dreadful, but now it's just in this bizarro state where it's clearly really backwards and dangerous but also a place where people have silly playfights and nothing has consequences.
If you mean how it was described in the PCB prologue or even PMISS, maybe. The former especially would be a VERY different setting, since every random human was capable of fighting Youkai. Even the otherwise more positive PMISS dropped that idea. It would still have some grim elements, like the fate of most outsiders, but it would certainly be a more heroic and ethereal setting.

[Anonymous No.]

Grimdark shit in 2hu to put it into perspective:
>Okina using brainwashed human child slaves (Who she never intended to release)
>Yukari gapping in humans to serve as youkai food (DiPP shows off how terrifying it is from the perspective of outsiders)
>Yukari and Okina using Zashiki-warashi to spy on the villagers from within their homes
>Akyuu being nothing but a little piece of shit depicting youkai as far more dangerous than they are at their request
>People turning into vengeful spirits permanently because of youkai like Orin stealing their corpses
>Reimu being nothing more than a puppet put in place by the sages in order to keep Gensokyo balanced (Read Okina's dialogue in HSiFS)
>Shikigami period. The original entities pretty much get suppressed. Inb4 "It doesn't matter/retconned"
>Humans turning into youkai/magicians/etc. voluntarily/involuntarily. Extremely serious downgrades despite how beneficial it might look on the surface.
>Lunarians could probably destroy Gensokyo/the Earth at any time if they felt like it.
>Eirin is a serial killing psychopath that helped found the lunarian capital in the first place

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607907
>I kinda get putting yourself in the setting for immersion
NTA, but while it's not a Isekai Touhou is VERY much a setting made for that. People from the outside world ending up there is a established part of the lore.

>but does people have to immediately apply and judge with their own morals,
The issue isn't that most of Gensokyo have a different standard of morality, it's that they have no standard. They are just evil people, and while it's mostly played for comedy the story doesn't try to sugarcoat it.

>Maybe I should've said "the main point of the setting" instead.
The main point of the story is mostly a excuse for music.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608213
>>Okina using brainwashed human child slaves (Who she never intended to release)
To be fair, that's not the worst deal in the world. Certainly better than being a outsider or a villager.

>>Lunarians could probably destroy Gensokyo/the Earth at any time if they felt like it.
Can they actually destroy Earth?

Otherwise, basically agree.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607982
> Even if some people might say that there are cases where it's justified, the shit that characters like Murasa and Mystia get up to very much would be considered irredeemably evil by 99% of the population.
I mean, imagine trying Yukari or Okina at the hague.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607356
>all lore threads are headcanon threads
ftfy

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608247
>Can they actually destroy Earth?
By Touhou's own logic, the Abrahamic God would have so much faith that it'd be pretty much impossible for them to destroy the entire world without his approval, but that's a rabbit hole that will never get a proper explanation in the series, since it's mostly focused on Japanese mythology and surroundings.

[Anonymous No.]

I for one always trust ancient old touhous to be completely honest and not bullshit to seem more impressive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608281
What do you think youkai are hiding from?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608281
War is more a battle of wits than it is pure strength. Doesn't matter how strong a god is if you can kill them (relatively easy) with a specific weapon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608132
>but also presented (in text) as being better than the outside world because people are more honest, I guess, but it never makes much sense.
didnt rinnosuke make some comments about how this was an illogical or hypocritical line of thought in CoLA? rinnosuke is generally thought of as zun's self-insert, no?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608213
>People turning into vengeful spirits permanently because of youkai like Orin stealing their corpses
Wait really?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608313
Unlike polytheism where gods tend to be killable, the Capital-G's God's lore basically has him as invincible and almighty. You can't really out-clever him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607982
Personally the reason I like Touhou and Gensokyo is the intricate setting of mixed eastern and western mythology that also exist at pocket space in current time which makes their culture possibly overlap, so despite the setting appears to be in ancient era there are modern things from items to social structures. The more "modern" issues that happens in Gensokyo only add to this. From creator's standpoint, it feels like an excuse for ZUN to write whatever he wants without boundaries of specific time and setting because Gensokyo is a mix of everything.
I just find such intrication and novelty interesting and intriguing, it doesn't have anything to do with morals. I know it's a subjective matter to judge and measure but surely what people like and find intriguing doesn't always boil down to how morally correct or how hypothetically beneficial it is to them.
So why is it suddenly a character or setting has to be "nice" and "morally correct" to be liked? Not in the "wow I wanna be like that/I wish it were real". The point of fiction is to marvel at something like intergalactic war between alien civilazations or the existence of cthulhu abomination without them being real which would be against moral in the first place. Same with Touhou.

>Because frankly, when I look at the messages ZUN tries to send with his stories....
I don't think there's supposed to be messages nor that ZUN ever blatantly speak his opinion regarding the social issues. Something like Megumu capitalizing Gensokyo's economy, fighting over oil resources, enslaving human spirits in animal realm, etc. They just exist for the sake of it.
No one got punished or called wrong for the whatever "morally wrong" actions they did. Reimu beat the shit out of them simply because they are bothering her.
Those "social commentaries", at least what appear in the games, are basically just "well turn out things like that can happen in Gensokyo", nothing more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608332
>rinnosuke is generally thought of as zun's self-insert, no?
Is he married as well?

>>44608519
>Personally the reason I like Touhou and Gensokyo is the intricate setting of mixed eastern and western mythology
I like it mostly because I think it's a interesting take on fantasy. It fixes the general issues plaguing urban fantasy (The fact that it's kind of inherently ridiclous) without removing the element of relatability.

>I know it's a subjective matter to judge and measure but surely what people like and find intriguing doesn't always boil down to how morally correct or how hypothetically beneficial it is to them.
To be sure, the issue I have with Touhou is that it's hard to care when almost everybody is this evil. At it's worst it borders on Eight Deadly Words territory: I don't care what happens to these people. If Reimu were to be burned alive, I would probably cheer it on.

>So why is it suddenly a character or setting has to be "nice" and "morally correct" to be liked?
There is a difference between if I like a character as a person or if i like somebody as a character. As a character, I think Yukari, Mystia, Sakuya, Remilia are great. As people, I think they all deserve to be murdered and would never want to see them.

>I don't think there's supposed to be messages nor that ZUN ever blatantly speak his opinion regarding the social issues.
It depends, and you could argue it's more applicable than straight up allegory, but there is plenty of genuine critique. Sometimes it's not even subtle, like much of the religious discussion in Synopsium or literally all Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608340
Yes. She throws them into the closed hell where they become vengeful spirits.

She is one of the few youkai that at least has a reason for doing bad things and it's made very clear she would never murder somebody in cold blood. But she is still bad.

[Anonymous No.]

Pick 7 youkai to represent the seven deadly sins and explain your reasoning

[Anonymous No.]

This character feels like a living dichotomy that's hardly been exploited even by the fans.
Her taste for mischief, her relative distance to most of Gensokyo besides Mamizou and her old age makes you wonder if, in all that time, she's never had the self reflection about going bigger, although one could argue this same reflection could lead her to know she'd eventually get spotted, and she doesnt want to be seen in her true form as to not diminish the fear she embodies. Her omake doesn't exactly express any distaste at her having been defeated often by humans as it seems she's always been able to keep a cover. There's also the rarity of her own species and the alien imagery that further implies that this is a character that isn't supposed to be seen all that often if at all, so it makes sense that she's UFO's 2nd least prominent character (Behind Shou, sadly. The others have playable spinoffs or mainline appearances, and Kogasa was in TD but also 17.5)

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608800
>Pride
Mystia. Though, if you count her as a youkai Remilia might win. Both are very arrogant and prideful people despite the fact they aren't the hottest shit around by any measure.

>Gluttony
Momoyo. She's literally known to eat Dragons in the lore. Utsuho and Yuuma are also is also a strong candidate.

>Lust
Byakuren literally gave herself a perfect body using magic like a vain sorcerer. While, granted, it's never implied she used that body to sleep around. It's not totally unreasonable.

>Wrath
Yachie(Who granted i don't think counts as a Youkai), Yuuka, and Flandre are all good candidates in their own right. Generality being very violent in their nature, though granted they all have something resembling restraint.

>Envy
Parsee. I feel I don't even need to explain this one.

>Greed
Nitori. Her greed is one of her defining traits in the spin off manga. Way more than her shyness, anyhow.

>Sloth
Meiling is out for that personality trait being mostly fanon. Komaichi meanwhile isn't a Yokai. So that really only leaves Yukari. Frankly, she could probably fit every sin on this list. Her sloth is actually somewhat reasonable in comparison, especially since it's implied she's not actually sleeping.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608993
I think she's interesting mostly because Synopsium implies she actually feels a bit sad about her status. She's very much a card carrying villain who seems to revel in being the embodiment of fear... in theory. In practice she's actually rather lonely.

She should also be one, if not the, oldest and most powerful Yokai. Not only being the mythological Nue, but also having taken many, MANY other forms over the past. She very well could have been any number of mythological monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608519
>intricate setting of mixed eastern and western mythology
There's practically no reference to western mythology outside of Hecatia.
>>44608519
>So why is it suddenly a character or setting has to be "nice" and "morally correct" to be liked?
Not the original Anon that started this bit but it isn't about them being morally incorrect, it's about them being bland, 1-dimensional caricatures in a large number of cases. They aren't anything to marvel at in the first place.
>>44608519
>I don't think there's supposed to be messages nor that ZUN ever blatantly speak his opinion regarding the social issues.
Read literally any of the omake.txts of the more recent entries.

TL;DR: Please don't be a tertiary in the lore thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609077
*Generally being very violent

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609112
>There's practically no reference to western mythology outside of Hecatia.
EoSD crew.

>But they are irrelevant
Well, yes. But they are also one of the most famous and beloved parts of the setting. Much to ZUN's horror.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609159
>Much to ZUN's horror.
>ZUN hears about Flandre's popularity
>"Get better taste."

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609112
>There's practically no reference to western besides Hecatia
Fairies and magicians

>it's about them being bland, 1-dimensional caricatures in a large number of cases.
That's always been what most of the characters are from the beginning. Complex and well-written personalities are never Touhou's strong point in the first place. Though I'd still disagree if you think some characters can only and should be defined as "being assholes" just because they are.

>Read literally any of the omake.txts of the more recent entries.
Those omakes and actual ZUN commentaries doesn't really affect the Touhou plot/setting itself, isn't it? Which is what I'm talking about.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609313
>Fairies and magicians
Fairy is known to be a mediocre translation of yousei, and magicians aren't strictly western. Take Patchouli, for example, who in spite of being part of the most western group in Gensokyo, uses Chinese Classical Elements.

>Those omakes and actual ZUN commentaries doesn't really affect the Touhou plot/setting itself, isn't it? Which is what I'm talking about.
They do, though. They're the basis for the stories he creates, which he makes in an attempt to be allegories to those political themes. I may not like it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking otherwise. It's even more blatant than ever with UM and UDoALG.

[Anonymous No.]

ZUN sells Touhou to Bethesda Games WHEN?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609381
>I may not like it, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking otherwise.
Well that's just preference then.
I don't see what's so bad about presenting modern social issues in Gensokyo, as long as the narrative itself doesn't deliberately push certain extreme opinion like a propaganda.
Modern themes has been blatant even since SA, or like anon said since BAiJR. Make sense because Aya is already a modern journalist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609506
>Touhou Bethesda
The dialogue is already lifeless enough, anon. I don't want to see the Bethesda version of the Human Village.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609548
>I don't see what's so bad about presenting modern social issues in Gensokyo
I'm struggling to tell if you're baiting or not, but again, it's an issue not of the premise, but of ZUN's complete and utter lack of writing competence. I'll give credit that he doesn't push his beliefs in the way western devs do, but when I see his comments in the UDoALG omake when it's probably the worst balanced Phantasmagoria yet, it really reflects poorly on ZUN himself. Frankly it'd be better if he just decided whether he does or doesn't want to thoroughly explore the themes in allegory or not, as opposed to the whole Status Quo worship thing Touhou as a franchise has going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609548
>Modern themes has been blatant even since SA
Which is also about when people started complaining that the quality was dropping.
SA was the last time that the series had more or less an unbroken record of being hit after hit, and 12 just doesn't have that. I don't think I can ever quite remember which one TD was. LoLK was neat too, but mostly because it was retardedly difficult due to the pointdevice gimmick.
Now, I think part of the reason that the older games had a certain charm that is lacking nowadays is due to the heavier use of taking a japanese legend and making a character from them, wheras before ZUN was a lot more lenient with artistic liberty, and not basing entire games on a highly specific figure from mythological history. The recent cards thing is alright, but it very much is a distraction from the real game here, and overall makes everything a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be.
I also very much dislike the hell arc we seem to be in, since I just don't like most of the hell people, and don't get what their deal is for the most part.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608127
>capitalism

Dont you mean jewish satanic manipulation?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607374
What about the "we must genocide all youkai and non-humans to liberate the human race from gensokyo" pill?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609707
No. Because Satan is like Yokai: Not real.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609775
That's literally just the Indigo pill.

>>44609643
SA? Really? That was like the height of Touhou.

>I don't think I can ever quite remember which one TD was
13.

>Now, I think part of the reason that the older games had a certain charm that is lacking nowadays is due to the heavier use of taking a japanese legend and making a character from them,
That's mostly just Nostalgia. Like, I love EoSD. But I'm not going to sit here and claim it's the best game in the franchise. Story wise, I think the spin off did a lot to make Gensokyo feel like a real place.

>I also very much dislike the hell arc we seem to be in, since I just don't like most of the hell people, and don't get what their deal is for the most part.
That's true for every story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609381
Ok but what is ZUN's exact opinions and ideologies though? It always feels like he is so ambiguous about what he support or what he just mentions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609805
Perhaps a subvariation of the indigo pill? There are anons who believe that the youkai sages will change their mind and stop relying on human meat, and there is the other anons who believe in total youkai death and that they all must be genocided

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610076
I feel that "The sages will fix it eventually" tends to fall more under Green pill territory. Still, if you must split it up I would say do it in three groups: Is improving, will improve, outside world will fix/Gensokyo is doomed anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610024
I think he started off as a pretty straightforward anti modernity Japanese reactionary that slowly morphed into a more atypical progressive. A lot of his stories are clearly commentary on outside world trends, but at the same time Gensokyo is shown time and time again to not be one hair better, If not downright worse, than modern Japan.

I would put him down as whatever the Japanese version of a Q-Anon person is, but he clearly dislikes the modern Far right going by him making a entire book mocking Trump. Probably the result of living in a non christian society and therefore not having your mind steadily warped by satanic panic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607576
Yeah, I'm still around. I check in here, X, and rarely Bant but only for Touhou shitposts. Lurking every day periodically and only respond to anything that I think has merit like this thread. Naturally it's a work in progress and depending on who you ask I'm either doing it correctly or working backwards. Not to sidetrack this thread further but I'm partly doing it for personal reasons and partly doing it to help guide myself to interact with our worlds equivalent to Gensokyo. I've seen too many things in my life to dismiss this as "just" fantasy, and I'm adamant about Gensokyo and it's inhabitants, in whatever shape and forms they may take, exist in one way or another. But that's more an /X/ topic, I think and the mindset would technically be a combination of this board and /X/. Here, I'm both a fan of the work and as a researcher for the real thing while.....doing my own thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610185
Honestly, I dismiss something like Touhou being real because it's too fun. If I could collectively trick a group of people into creating fantasy creatures I would be spending my time VERY differently. Which makes the fantasy, by itself, a form of escapism and therefore unlikely.

Because, you know, there is no escape.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44609583
Why should we expect good writing on a shmup series? ZUN is not explictly a storywriter, let alone a good one. He just throw ideas he likes to keep Touhou and its worldbuilding afloat, if not for the music and shitty mechanic for shmup he want to make.
Perhaps you'll see the conclusion of the latest themes in the next Akyuu chronicle but just like SoPM it'll probably ends with "well Gensokyo has issues like this and that, that's all there is to it". Even the books only exist to give more details, not an actual literature with proper storytelling, nor is Touhou as a whole.

>as opposed to the whole Status Quo worship thing Touhou as a franchise has going on.
Yes. That's what Touhou has been for a long time.
It's just an excuse for ZUN to freely insert more ideas without the limitation from the changes he brought upon himself had he broke the status quo. He doesn't want to rake his brain more than just make things happen in Gensokyo and perhaps haphazardly connect the dots later.

>>44609643
>wheras before ZUN was a lot more lenient with artistic liberty, and not basing entire games on a highly specific figure from mythological history.
This is an understandable sentiment. ZUN just decided to take Touhou in this direction but it's also because that's what he was interested in, and you can't expect him to keep the old charm when he probably couldn't churn more ideas for it.
However, mind you it doesn't mean that the old games has good "writing" more than it is simple and nothing more than a background. In the end, people like Touhou for the novelty and interesting concepts rather than good writing and whether you like the earlier whimsical plot and recent theme-heavy plot is just preferences.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610251
>Why should we expect good writing on a shmup series?
I think a lot of people came in from the fandom. Expected more out of the franchise. Then got disappointed by the reality of what it is. Touhou's popularity, the more i think about it, is not due to being actually well written or highly played but simply because it's proto Gacha. It's why the rise of Gacha has seen such a large decline in the fanbase.

>Even the books only exist to give more details, not an actual literature with proper storytelling, nor is Touhou as a whole.
Anon, we have spin off manga.

>Yes. That's what Touhou has been for a long time.
Not really. Unless you mean "it doesn't end in a fiery apocalypse". That won't happen until after Zun divorces. The status quo has been in constant flux even if you don't count the retcons.

[Anonymous No.]

Do you guys think Reimu met Marisa in SoEW or is that not canon? ZUN already talked about this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610151
Not sure if the book was actually mocking trump or mocking the media pieces surrounding him... and with how hell is potrayed he would probably be anti-immigration too?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610349
I think SoEW is VERY broad canon. Like, very. Mima might have existed, she might have caused a incident, and that incident might have resulted in her meeting Marisa.

>>44610404
>Not sure if the book was actually mocking trump or mocking the media pieces surrounding him
I think there was a element of both, but he was unquestionably mostly focused mostly on alternate facts as a phrase. Thus, the name of the book.

>and with how hell is potrayed he would probably be anti-immigration too?
Doubt that considering Gensokyo has been consistently portrayed as being very welcoming to new people. Even the human villagers are mentioned as adoring outsiders that decide to stay in the village.

The closest you might get to a genuine anti immigration commentary is the way outsiders are used by Youkai. Which is more a criticism of the way natives related to immigrants, just taken to a more extreme and literal example (They are literally consumed instead of being used as cheap labor).

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610492
*relate to immigrants

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610349
Iirc the only confirmation we have for Reimu-Marisa relationship in Windows canon pre-EoSD is that they already quite close to each other (and Rinnosuke) one or two years before the Scarlet Mist incident

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610530
Wonder if ZUN is going to go more into Marisa's backstory. Especially considering a recent Touhou is a childhood friend that met Marisa while she was off in the woods to cry and hide. Which, by itself, is fucking revealing if that was a regular occurrence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610301
>is not due to being actually well written
Yeah. It's a shmup series that each only has few couple lines of dialogue and short plot overview. People should know that first.
And the print works exist only to elaborate more on the worldbuilding or put more anecdotes into it.

>Anon, we have spin off manga.
Yes, I mean that also includes the spin-off manga. Most of them are just short story compilations about what happens in Gensokyo, with small hints related to the main plot that will conclude at the last chapters. Only SSiB and CDS that perhaps has the closest thing to proper storytelling but even CDS began to fall into plot-of-the-week format with how it goes because it's the only thing ZUN can write.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44605723
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, substitutes that require less effort tend to take over.
The mental and physical realms are getting more and more separated, and that in places like Gensoukyou and Hell both realms might be closer to each other you need less "magical reach".
It's a nice idea since spiritual believes seem to start focusing more on the physical world and evolve towards more intangible stuff like the afterlife.

>>44605750
Another hard part is that modern myths were born with a non religious point of view like Bigfoot, Mothman, Nessie and so on.
I think it's a bit hard for humans to lose interest in supernatural things completely or to not try and weaponize magic or have utilitarian magic: you can only cast a small flame on your finger? probably worth it for any smoker.
In the case of youkai it could also be the "scientificaly" debunking it by just saying that they don't make sense without giving any fuck about empirical evidence like it's sometimes done.

>>44606214
The other option would be her to not regret turning into a vampire and thus being unaffected by seeing the cross. Maybe she was never christian for starters, but the catalyst theory is my favorite. although I guess technically both could be true.

Also Byakuren is in a funny spot imo, she seems to use Makai/devil magic together with holy Buddha magic or something.
Heck they both start with similar nonspells, I thought it was intentional at first since magicians are supposed to be devils and such.
So I'm not sure if magicians can have some sort of "neutral" magic and also learn "holy" magic or if you really can use holy and dark magic without no important backlash.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610024
>It always feels like he is so ambiguous about what he support or what he just mentions.
I think that's the point. He doesn't want to be too vocal regarding his opinions about modern issues, let alone blatantly pushing it in the Touhou setting.
Mostly the issues/allegory just sorta exist in Gensokyo while the characters express different opinions based on their own agenda, then it's just gone like any other incident.

>>44610151
I don't think Gensokyo is supposed to be a counter to what ZUN believe to be an issue in modern trends. Perhaps he just see those as interesting phenomenon he could make happen in Gensokyo as another anecdotes and as long it doesn't threaten humans' fear/faith to youkai and gods (which already mitigated by said youkai/gods themselves being the culprit) it won't bring a lasting consequences.

[Anonymous No.]

While it's neat that in-universe people acknowledge that 2hu youkai is radically different from their actual myth, I wish ZUN write a character wondering or even theorizing WHY a lot of them physically turned into female human
Also for a sage, Kasen is horribly ignorant of this stuff. Did some of her memory got sealed with her arm too or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44611085
>Mostly the issues/allegory just sorta exist in Gensokyo while the characters express different opinions based on their own agenda, then it's just gone like any other incident.
I mean, if you want to argue Gensokyo is a good place that is basically the only real argument. Every issue of modernity is just crushed underneath the brutal totalitarian youkai led regime and dealt with by it's key enforcers in a swift and mostly bloodless manner.

>I don't think Gensokyo is supposed to be a counter to what ZUN believe to be an issue in modern trends
Like I said, I think it started out as a counter and then turned into a more farcical extreme example of modern trends. It takes what already exists and just pushes it to insane levels to make a point. Which goes along with Gensokyo being way more dystopian than the outside world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612273
>I wish ZUN write a character wondering or even theorizing WHY a lot of them physically turned into female human
The problem is that the answer for that is mostly meta nor really all that consistent.

> Did some of her memory got sealed with her arm too or something?
I think she's mostly faking it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608213
>Pedophiles
>War
>Intelligence agencies
>Politicians lying
>People become irrelevant when they die 90% of the times
>Famous people only being puppets to push ideologies
>Propaganda period. The original entity gets suppressed and the people become mere tools for a "greater cause"
>Access to social media voluntarily/involuntarily serious downgrades despite how beneficial it might look on the surface
>Nukes could probably destroy the Earth at any time.
>Serial killing psychopaths exist irl wtf. How do people even come up with this ideas like the killer clown fr?
Can't believe the outside world is a grimdark place.

I have to agree with anons talking about how grimdark is used excessively, if someone uses it with dork souls I could at least understand since there's barely anyone happy that doesn't look fully delusional. I think Patches is the most cheerful person you find around.

Meanwhile in Touhou the outside world is known and even in Gensoukyo it might not be that bad since they had centuries without wars, no natural disasters apparently, all incident's are resolved before shit hits the fan and didn't had to go through industrialization which sure makes things better afterwards but the process itself is pretty nasty. You also have certain knowledge about the afterlife instead of the "you'll check it yourself when ded lmao" and hell being buddhist so it's not for all eternity, at least.

Also even while it's not for everyone, spellcard rules also tone things a bit down compared to every setting with magical/superpower fights or heck even normal fights.
And suicide seems to be very rare? I mean you have suicidal outsider, FT who double suicides after knowing about the outside world... but aside of that I think the only suicide talk was Komachi saying "lmao U suicidal"
Touhou seems to be more or less as dark as real life imo, but putting it in the same category as 40k seems ridiculous. But I guess people love hyperbole or don't think that grim and grimdark might be different things.
But I also have to admit that ZUN kinda shifted to a less balanced Gensoukyou to a darker one, heck PoFV is about massive death in the outside world happening every 60 years.
Dunno maybe ZUN was edgy in "that feeling when no gf" mode and decided to make the fantasy world better than real life and getting kids made him have a more positive view in live.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44607927
it's like not using nukes

[Anonymous No.]

>>44608800
How about the seven heavenly virtues?
>Humility
Akyuu
>Kindness
Keine
>Diligence
Sakuya
>Charity
Shou
>Temperance
Tenshi (eating peaches is better than being a fatass drunkard like Yuugi)
>Chastity
Everyone in canon (sorry coomers)

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612531
>meta
Well maybe not "turned into female" specifically, but considering that human villager is seemingly unaware that polite little girl with a backpack they met in a bazaar this afternoon is the same person that fisted their ancestors anus just few centuries ago, it's a pretty justified question in-universe if you ask me

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612651
>Well maybe not "turned into female" specifically
Byakuren herself said that when the great hakurei barrier was established the youkai were free from having their forms limited by human imagination and began developing on their own till they became girls

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612580
>Pedophiles
>Politicians lying
>People become irrelevant when they die 90% of the times
>Famous people only being puppets to push ideologies
>Propaganda period. The original entity gets suppressed and the people become mere tools for a "greater cause"
>Serial killing psychopaths exist irl wtf. How do people even come up with this ideas like the killer clown fr?
All of these exists in Gensokyo.

>>Access to social media voluntarily/involuntarily serious downgrades despite how beneficial it might look on the surface
I would say "Your soul gets damaged beyond repair when you turn into a yokai" is probably a bigger issue than getting addicted to social media.

>Nukes could probably destroy the Earth at any time.
Gensokyo literally exists under a metaphorical sword of Damocles at all times. They've been invaded by hell, Lunarians, the demon realm, vampire lolis, and technically even aliens. That's not getting into the red mist, the near nuclear annihilation, the religious war almost going hot, and that time everybody in the human village literally lost all hope in existing due to a mask loli.

> if someone uses it with dork souls I could at least understand since there's barely anyone happy that doesn't look fully delusional.
Don't you diss my boy Solaire

>And even in Gensoukyo it might not be that bad since they had centuries without wars,
They've had about as long as Japan without a war.

>all incident's are resolved before shit hits the fan
Same for the outside world.

> but the process itself is pretty nasty
Not really in Japan.

>You also have certain knowledge about the afterlife
Which is great considering your actual life is fucking awful.

>Also even while it's not for everyone, spellcard rules also tone things a bit down compared to every setting with magical/superpower fights or heck even normal fights.
How does that benefit anybody? You would rather see most Youkai get killed as a villager.

>And suicide seems to be very rare?
Zero evidence for that.

>Touhou seems to be more or less as dark as real life
Like I said, it's a exaggerated parody of real life. It's worse than modern Japan, but hardly on par with a setting like 40K where the entire universe is fucked beyond repair.

>Dunno maybe ZUN was edgy in "that feeling when no gf" mode and decided to make the fantasy world better than real life and getting kids made him have a more positive view in live.
I think he mostly just got over being a angsty young adult. He was, what, twenty when he wrote early Touhou?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612594
>>Kindness
>Keine
Wouldn't it be Byakuren?
Yeah I know she's kind of hypocrite and yadda yadda, but her kindness is pretty genuine even if it's sometime misplaced

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612651
It is, but like I said the actual explanation is mostly meta.

Granted, I can think of excuses. Rumia and Mystia do it because it makes hunting easier. Wriggle wants to make insects less hated. Remilia was a actual little girl that got vamped. Miko is trans. Yukari's true form is lovecraft tier "The mind breaks when they see it". Etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612696
I would say Keine is nicer than Byakuren but I'm biased as fuck.

I think either one fits.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612724
>Keine is nicer
Well she headbutt her students if they neglect their homework, does that bring her kindness down?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612761
Tough love.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612594
>Everyone in canon
Suwako?

I would give it to Hecatia for being a literal virgin goddess.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44610151
Honestly, before WaHH and FS Gensokyo seemed like a better place, so I can believe that ZUN's outlook on life must have changed, even if he doesn't show it openly much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612696
One of the first things Byakuren did was try to keep Miko sealed away. She really just cares about whatever benefits her and hers, and she makes no efforts to keep her disciples from doing bad shit, with her just meekly making excuses for their behavior when confronted by others about it.
Plus, her dream self, that is, her unfiltered and unrestrained desires, eagerly talks about how she wishes she could put bombs in people's heads to control them.
She was also pretty harsh to Ichirin in Mamizou's/Mokou's scenario in Antinomy.
Byakuren is absolutely not a kind person.

[Anonymous No.]

It's that guy again

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612919
Youkai Jesus in the literal sense, she's also a callous whore in Symposium of Post-Mysticism, paying a blind eye to all of the fuckery her followers do

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612949
The difference is that Jesus actually cared, Byakuren does not truly care and is more of a control freak

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612580
>Meanwhile in Touhou the outside world is known and even in Gensoukyo it might not be that bad since they had centuries without wars, no natural disasters
Well Outside World still affects Gensokyo too anon, I'm pretty sure a simple bomb or earthquake would instantly destroy the barrier if it precisely strike the anchor if the dead tree in the Three Fairy manga has any indication
>And suicide seems to be very rare?
Any place with close knit community do that to you anon, no man-eating monster required

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612919
>>44612949
>>44613002
We're talking about kindness, not responsible
Calm your nipples

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613133
>responsible
*responsibility

[Anonymous No.]

Reimu didn't look concerned when Marisa look like she died
Does Reimu have no shred of pity towards Marisa? Does she consider Marisa her friend at all?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613010
The barrier being affected by something like that is a bit more tricky then that. The way Yukari set up the barrier is that it must work on our side using our laws of common sense, while working on their side using the laws of magic and fantasy. And with the shrine being slowly forgotten about on our side there would come a point where there wouldn't be a physical location to hit anymore. The barrier uses quantum physics that haven't been "found" on our side relating to the grand unified theory and due to limitations and needs was designed around the shrine itself. So if it's outside world counterpart goes away then they'd be safe on that front. But assuming Japan got hit by some disaster, war, etc., then there would be an influx of spirits in the afterlife that would spill out into Gensokyo, causing lots and lots of problems like it did when the tsunami hit decades ago, or Gods forbid when the second world War was going on. So TL;DR: You're right for right now, but once the shrine rots away they can't be hit like that. It's all the other ways that could screw them over.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612695
>All of these exists in Gensokyo.
I'm not saying they don't but more comparing, although I honestly doubt ZUN will ever talk about pedos.

>I would say "Your soul gets damaged beyond repair when you turn into a yokai" is probably a bigger issue than getting addicted to social media.
Yeah, could think of much of a irl example since there's 0 proof for stuff like that, also not sure if it was ever specified in Touhou what happens to magicians and youkai, iirc some storie had Tamamo repent and go to hell without her treatment being much different than a human, not sure that myth is much of a good ref for Touhou. That being say if they show souls getting dammed anywhere that I missed please tell.

>Gensokyo literally exists under a metaphorical sword of Damocles at all times.
Since nukes earth has been in that situation only that we got used to it and tension kinda faded. Nukes also didn't really go out and Hiroshima probably had more than the whole population of Gensoukyo erradicated with the first nukes, Maybe Earth as a whole better, due to probability, but any specific city could still get annihilated in seconds.

>Don't you diss my boy Solaire
I'm sorry, I failed in my first run to save him and I guess I didn't get over it ;_;. He was indeed the only (genuine) sunshine you found in Lordran.

>They've had about as long as Japan without a war.
WW2?

>Same for the outside world.
Depends on what you count as an incident, I guess cold war was prevented but shit like the world wars seem to have been solved more while shit was hitting the fan than before.

>Not really in Japan.
Huh, I honestly don't know much about that period in Japan, I thought that it was faster but that the population still got fucked big time. But I'll take your word for that.

>Which is great considering your actual life is fucking awful.
Hey, it's something, I'm not trying to sell it as an utopia but as a around outside world level.

>How does that benefit anybody?
That at least there is some non-lethal battling, sure it's only for the some characters, but in most setting you just have le big bad murdering people all the time and everyone fighting for their life... which isn't much, but I think it might be an improvement compared to dark fantasy settings and such.

>Zero evidence for that.
I mean youkai would care if their livestock killed themselves... I guess I forgot to mention Yuyu, but that was before Gensoukyo and DiPP if that counts, but still the one doing the hanging was an outsider.

>Like I said, it's a exaggerated parody of real life. It's worse than modern Japan
Japan always baffled me since they seem to have lotsa shit, but the amount of escapism, suicide, working culture and stuff like that make them feel miserable from the outside.
But maybe that's just other countries making Japan look worse and just projecting their stuff... Even then I would be sure if Japan in WW2 would be enough focused suffering to make Gensoukyo not look that bad.
Hard agree on it not being close to 40k tho.

>I think he mostly just got over being a angsty young adult.
He was 25 around EoSD, I tend to forget that he sold his first games when he was 19, so a bit older that I thought but I guess he still was an angsty young adult.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613175
>The way Yukari set up the barrier is that it must work on our side using our laws of common sense, while working on their side using the laws of magic and fantasy.
>And with the shrine being slowly forgotten about on our side there would come a point where there wouldn't be a physical location to hit anymore.
No anon, if the barrier in the magical and fantastical side got massively weakened by its anchor struck with a simple lightning, why would the barrier in the realistic and grounded side have the immunity if its anchor get destroyed by age?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613173
I'm pretty sure their relationship has always been just slightly unbalanced
Marisa's chasing after Reimu, but Reimu's not chasing after Marisa

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612846
I would say the turning point was Synopsium. Which was way, WAY more cynical than PMISS. It very much pushed the idea of Gensokyo as a bad place. While PMISS, for all of it's dark moments, was ultimately fairly optimistic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613173
It's mostly a joke. But it does go with Reimu being a cold farted itch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613173
Ok is it me just missing the joke or are you fags that keep bringing this shit up missed the nature of this panel that clearly just a gag?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613380
it's a gag but it's the sort of joke that's come up as far back as EoSD, so I'd say it's reasonable to assume that it can be taken as part of how they view their relationship

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613409
Please understand, Reimu has an odd sense of humor.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613368
Interestingly enough, SoPM, FS, and that WaHH chapter about zashiki-warashi network all released in 2012.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613339
It want the lightning that did it, it was Reimu and Marisa inventing a kami that refused in the tree and then forgetting about it, which caused the rift that Yukari had to fix. It only happened that way because the rules of reality inside the barrier work that way. Out here we, for the most part, don't believe in things like that so it wouldn't cause such a big issue because our rules of reality work differently. The shrine is the same way. On our side it's just a building nobody cares about anymore even though if you did show up and have actual faith that could let you interact with their side of your lucky/unlucky. On their side its a keystone part of that world and has to abide by the rules of the side of existence. For us, it may have been tied together but over time with lack of belief its just a derelict shrine. If what's left of it gets wiped away on our side they would feel "vibrations" in a sense but it wouldn't end up like the kami enshrined in the tree. Now if you knew of it, had faith in it, and went to attack/damage its real world side with intent to do harm.... then yeah I could see it doing something. But youkai are known to hang out in the outside world around the shrine and surrounding areas to hunt and screw around, with some being a canary in a coal mine for just such an event.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613420
>2012
Damn I guess ZUN really believe that Mayan end of the world thing

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613175
Anon, that screenshot was a meme edit, we're talking about canon lore, and even if the barrier didn't go down, nuclear fallout would end up reaching the inside of Gensokyo, almost assuredly wiping out most of the village and therefore pretty much the entirety of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613423
*it wasn't the lightning that did it, was Reimu and Marisa inventing a kami they enshrined in a tree that was struck and then forgot about it.

>I fucking hate auto correct but I'm at work so this'll have to do. Pardon the retardation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613248
>although I honestly doubt ZUN will ever talk about pedos.
He should canonize every Shota doujin.

>That being say if they show souls getting dammed anywhere that I missed please tell.
Eiki implies yokai go to hell, though it's hard to say how accurate it is.

>Since nukes earth has been in that situation only that we got used to it and tension kinda faded
True, but at the very least it's no better or worse than Gensokyo.

>WW2?
Almost a century ago.

>Depends on what you count as an incident
I don't know. But Japan at least generally avoided the worst of it.

>Huh, I honestly don't know much about that period in Japan
It certainly wasn't perfect, and they moved a lot of the worst of it to korea and China, but on average it was mostly a improvement.

>which isn't much, but I think it might be an improvement compared to dark fantasy settings and such.
Sure, but for the actual natives it's not fun. They would rather have Mystia or Rumia getting turned into fine mist.

>I mean youkai would care if their livestock killed themselves...
I doubt they would. As long as enough of them stay alive... Well, the occasional corpse isn't too much of a bother. It's mostly just not pushing them far enough that all collectively join a suicide cult.

> but the amount of escapism, suicide, working culture and stuff like that make them feel miserable from the outside.
Sure, but feudal life in Japan is also not very pleasant even before you also have them deal with literally evil human flesh eating monsters.

>Even then I would be sure if Japan in WW2 would be enough focused suffering to make Gensoukyo not look that bad.
World war 2 was bad, but in the long term I think it probably helped Japan more than it destroyed them. Granted, a lot of that is just because America ended up not punishing them that hard. Overall it was something they kind of needed to get out of their system, and compared to what they did to other countries they got off light. Which is pretty impressive considering they got nuked twice.

>Hard agree on it not being close to 40k tho.
For it to be close to 40K it would, at the very least, have to be a literal human farm where half of the villagers are regularly tortured/eaten/raped by yokai for fun. With Reimu and Marisa openly laughing at their misfortune.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613428
What screenshot? Where Yukari talks about how the barrier works?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613420
Makes sense. It was 4 years after the big economic crash and around the time people realized there wasn't going to be much improvement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613010
>Any place with close knit community do that to you anon, no man-eating monster required
I guess that explains why countries with "colder" cultures tend more to that.

>>44613173
It's just her payback after their battle in LLS.

>>44612594
>Chastity
Chastity for non-monks and nuns was closer to monogamy iirc, so even 2hus that had a husband could fit unless they had more than one

[Anonymous No.]

Gensokyo is for the fantastic. Mundane shitters like villagers and outsiders get treated like slaves because they're not fantastic enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613423
>>44613440
Yeah I get it, but Yukari still point out that killing the tree is still dangerous nonetheless

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612669
>youkai were free from having their forms limited by human imagination
>turn their entire appearance into human instead
What did they mean by this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613680
In many occult/folklore/religions/etc, the human form is seen as the ideal, and everything on a spiritual level tends to take said form over time in one way or another. Plus, cute girls sells games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613680
It means Byakuren didn't know what she was talking about because she was unaware of the growing popularity of monster girls in the Outside World.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613808
But, Anon that's wrong. Monster girls are youkai girls. They're human girls with extra parts added, the only difference is the monster is on the outside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613368
Speaking of PMiSS, some of the things writen here no longer seem to be a canon, including it's public nature.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613531
One of those mundane villagers tried to be more fantasy, and he got his skull cracked in two.
Then there was that shoe stealing rat youkai who Marisa stomped to death. And then there was that fat snake youkai who was just acting on his gluttonous nature, and some Tanuki humiliated him for picking on humans.
Sounds like only the youkai at the top get the benefits and freedom that wonderland promised.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614099
Fortune-teller might have been the smartest villager to have ever graced the land of Gensokyo, because:
>He had access to forbidden magic
>Used his divination technique to perceive the edge of the outer world, thus making him the only villager who actually know how the outside world look like
>Was perceptive enough to realize that humans are under the yoke of youkai and miserable
>Had enough ambition and cunning to create an escape plan
>His only mistake was telling his story to the shrine maiden, whereas he could have avoided death if he hadn't revealed his origins
He's the true jesus of touhou

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614181
>Fortune-teller might have been the smartest villager
False. He was a dumb retard who never got past his chuuni phase and told his master plan to Reimu after reincarnating himself as an evil spirit in the middle of the human village. Which is the exact single circumstance where she actually had to kill him for real.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614223
>in the middle of the human village
this was by far the stupidest part of his plan
if he'd done his business in the middle of the forest, it was likely that no one would ever know
all of the supposedly unfair situations in >>44614099 are youkai who thought they could fuck with the villagers, which is almost a guiding rule in Gensokyo. Don't attack villagers.
There are occasions where powerful youkai get away with it, which is unfair (and basically the crux of DDC) but people try and make it sound like the youkai were 100% in the right when they were killed
there's a chapter in WaHH as well where some noteppu learn the taste of human blood after attacking humans, but kasen cares for the animals, so she works to try and save them from becoming fully fledged youkai, and says that if they do, they should come to her for protection
so it's not like it's unilaterally the top youkai bullying the weak either

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614223
>>44614288
I would say he was too clever by half. Most of his plan worked, he just made the fatal error of not understanding what Reimu's purpose actually was. If he did, step A of his plan would have been to kill her.

He's certainly not the smartest human villagers. Those are fuckers like the salt merchant who presumably trades with Yokai to enrich himself.

>>44614288
Kasen is the exception that proves the rule. Remilia, Yukari, basically every yokai of worth is shown constantly picking on anything weaker than them.

>so it's not like it's unilaterally the top youkai bullying the weak either
That's fair.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614412
He's a turbotist doomer who did THE SINGULAR ONE THING YOU ARE NOT MEANT TO DO IN FRONT OF EVERYONE and thought it would go well. He's retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614081
Yeah, a lot of PMISS is very questionable. Unreliable narrator really doesn't cut it here considering I don't know how she would expect to get away with any of this.
>The human villagers has youkai exterminators!
>The human village has magicians!
>Everybody knows that the human village is under the protection of youkai and shops openly market themselves to youkai.

Honestly, if they ever make another book like this I would love if it was written for, like, Sumireko or other outsiders that stay in Gensokyo. That would really allow Akyuu or whatever to just spout any obvious bullshit and have it be acceptable with "Well, she's lying to keep them from doing something stupid". I also think it would be funny in general.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613997
I honestly can't think of a single monster girl property where they also aren't monstrous on the inside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614436
Like I said, I think he expected to get away with it because he assumed Reimu was actually on the side of the Youkai. That and he probably had no clue that transforming carried the death penalty.

Like I said, the actual smart version of his plan would be 1: Kill Reimu through poison or whatever. 2: Get a friend or confidant instead of relying on some random girl to pull it off. 3: Don't come back in public.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614477
It's almost like everyone forgets that Fortune Teller was dead long before the events of FS, and thus he wouldn't be able to kill Reimu himself before reviving as a youkai, and had relatively little control over where he got revived.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614586
It was still a stupid plan, he went with the first thing he thought of and declared himself a genius, without stopping to think what could have gone wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614586
That's what I said, he should have killed Reimu (Or whoever was the Hakurei Shrine Maiden back then) and made sure a confidant or friend did what he wanted.

>>44614613
I mean, I don't remember who said it, but any plan that begins with "I kill myself" should probably be reworked.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614636
>but any plan that begins with "I kill myself" should probably be reworked.
Considering how grim gensokyo is, i'd say the opposite

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614636
"Step 1; Kill yourself"
"Step 2; Kill the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, the single most powerful person in Gensokyo"
Good luck with that reasoning, anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614652
Fuck off grimfag it's not canon and never will be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614664
Cutesokyo is faker than Grimsokyo will ever be
Cry more about it

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614664
Anon, Gensokyo is unambiguously a dystopia for the common people. Just because the word "grim" triggers you to sperg out doesn't change that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614681
I always find it funny how whenever any so-called "insufferable" grimsokyo person try to start a conversation it's always the cutesokyofags that start crying out like juveniles, something about it they can't handle it seems

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614652
Nah, even in Grimsokyo you should probably give it a second thought.

I play Warhammer 40K, and very rarely do I win matches by killing my own units. Plasma weapons don't count.

>>44614656
Like I said, that's why he should have swapped it around. Kill Reimu first, then execute your plan in the middle of the chaos that would ensue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614686
I find it funny how the grimsokyo niggers are every bit a tumor as the yurifags trying to push it everywhere but pretend everyone else is the problem. As you can see from how hard they trued to hijack this thread too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614727
Weird projection

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614732
Yeah, that's what happens when you assign projection to things that aren't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614732
That's not a real argument anon, that's what you say when you don't have one but don't want to be seen calling names.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614727
Are these "grimsokyo niggers" in the room with us right now? We're only talking about canonsokyo, if that's too much to handle you're free to have a sad wank to art of your 2hu waifu getting pleasured by another woman.

[Anonymous No.]

What's the lore on this? I thought Eirin was supposed to be strong?

[Anonymous No.]

How likely are shota doujins to be canon? Is it out of character?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612580
have we been living in two separate worlds? yes real life is grimdark if you compare it to nearly every form of fiction. One of the major struggles characters in grimdark settings have is finding a reason to keep pushing forward.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614916
>finding a reason to keep pushing forward.
Something which sadly doesn't exist in our world, there's no passion in pushing forward in being a wageslave who pay taxes

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614981
>Something which sadly doesn't exist in our world
Nah, there's plenty. Especially compared to Gensokyo.

I would have killed myself ten times by now if I lived there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44613380
Some anons can't tell between gag dialogues and serious dialogues and take every statement as hard evidence that define a character's personality to be worse than it's meant to be.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd still rather live in Gensokyo then here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615017
Where exactly do you live? Because if your answer is anything other than "Ukraine" or "Somalia" you are insanely spoiled.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615043
Worse. America.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615008
Some people have a really hard time understanding that fictional characters can be sarcastic or even lie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615043
Not him but i live in Brazil and i would gladly go to Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615050
>America
Insanely spoiled.

>>44615068
>Brazil
If you want the Gensokyo experience just go walk around in the rainforest and pray you stumble across a random tribe that won't eat you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614884
I'm not saying that world is le grimdark, just taking the stuff >>44608213 said and picking the first thing that came to mind of each thing in the grimdark 2hu shit list.
I'm more towards it being closer to real life than cutesokyo or grimsokyo.
But now that I think about it most fictional settings with supperpowers or magic that are a similar to our world would also be probably darker than our world from the perspective of non protagonists, since le big bad or villian kinda makes stuff worse.
>>44613445
>He should canonize every Shota doujin.
kek

>Eiki implies yokai go to hell,
Sadly she doesn't talk about it with Mystia who is a maneating youkai, but Bunnies seem to go to hell.

>Sure, but for the actual natives it's not fun
Eh, this was more of a compared to settings where protagonists are always fighting to death(or at least supposedly) where natives have much less fun.
Like spellcard rules allow for at least some people to go into non-lethal dueling, which isn't much but It seems better than basically every setting with monsters.

>Well, the occasional corpse isn't too much of a bother.
I guess, guess I'll have to re-check but in Gensoukyou gave me a darker than it looks at first, but not too dark after looking for a good while.

>Sure, but feudal life in Japan is also not very pleasant even before you also have them deal with literally evil human flesh eating monsters.
Huh, I guess the fact of monsters being around in the past indeed puts Touhou in a darker spot.

>World war 2 was bad, but in the long term I think it probably helped Japan
I guess, but it sure must have sucked, and also the times before WW2. I'll still have my doubts if the villagers would have had a better life in the outside world though, but the fact that Touhou is pretty much real life but monsters of myth exist and gods are jerks would make it grimmer than real life.

>For it to be close to 40K it would, at the very least, have to be a literal human farm where half of the villagers are regularly tortured/eaten/raped by yokai for fun. With Reimu and Marisa openly laughing at their misfortune.
Ah yes, after many threads we finally found the grimdark! Congrats everyone!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615079
But i cant learn magic here im Brazil. The closest thing i have is crack.

[Anonymous No.]

Speaking of grimsokyo, how often do Sakuya kill random people to feed Remilia? I hope they have enough blood stock atleast

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615115
>random
Nah. Yukari gives her people to cut into pieces.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615115
she's staring at me with those soulless eyes...

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615115
she doesn't need to
read PMiSS

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615124
The eyes of a serial killer that has abandoned any ounce empathy and humanity while nonchalantly butchering people to feed two devils on a daily basis

[Anonymous No.]

Yes touhou is grimdark. Yes villagers live a shitty live. Yes a lot of people die painful deaths. And yes i would still gladly go there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615104
>Sadly she doesn't talk about it with Mystia who is a maneating youkai, but Bunnies seem to go to hell.
Intresting enough the one character that flat out mentions she falls outside the normal afterlife is Youmu.

>Gensoukyou gave me a darker than it looks at first, but not too dark after looking for a good while.
I don't see the good. I just don't think it's on the same level as most actual grimdark stories.

>which isn't much but It seems better than basically every setting with monsters.
I guess? I don't know, I can't see it as a positive since it means bad people never face any real consequences.

>Huh, I guess the fact of monsters being around in the past indeed puts Touhou in a darker spot.
Even in the real world feudal japan was far from pleasant.

>and also the times before WW2.
Most of the wars before WW2 went pretty well for Japan.

> I'll still have my doubts if the villagers would have had a better life in the outside world though
In modern times? Not even a question in my opinion. The only time they arguably had it better was world war 2, and back then by all accounts Gensokyo was even worse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615150
Most honest cutesokyofag

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615150
> And yes i would still gladly go there.
On the one hand, there are better ways to kill yourself. On the other hand, if you want to go out in a blaze of glory it is kind of awesome.

[Anonymous No.]

i just can't take grimsokyo seriously when the youkai are presented as fucking girls with silly hats and fancy dresses not to mention the fanart making them even more cute
now if zun had introduced somewhat more creepy or monstrous things in canon then i'd give it a chance

[Anonymous No.]

>>44614223
Puriisu andasutando, he just his divination got hijacked by 1568 hentai mangas of the outside world so it went full coomer brain in an instant.
>>44614181
>He's the true jesus of touhou
Seiga pls, Jesus didn't claim how oppressive romans were in front of a soldier and bragged about how he broke a taboo just to die pointlessly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615174
>i just can't take grimsokyo seriously when the youkai are presented as fucking girls with silly hats and fancy dresses not to mention the fanart making them even more cute
There's a joke about the Nazi party in here somewhere.

Either way, there is a element of farce to Touhou that keeps it somewhat lighthearted despite the lore being immensely bleak and unpleasant. The fact that everybody is a loli is part of that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615174
What about now?

[Anonymous No.]

It's not all bad.

>Better disaster preparedness then the majority of developed countries.
>Youkai aren't terribly interested in micro-managing your life compared to Outside World politicians Better to be ruled over by Robber Barons...etc.
>Incidents usually get wrapped up quickly before they damage the village too much. Compare to things like pandemics or market crashes which have long lasting consequences.
>Gaining spiritual fulfillment is easy modo when you're in a land filled with proof of the divine.

[Anonymous No.]

I think Gensokyo has lower lows but higher highs. Sure if you get unlucky you might turn into youkai food, but there is the potential of you becoming a hermit or a magician and living for hundreds of years.

[Anonymous No.]

What I never understood was people who jerk themselves off to the idea they'd get killed and eaten, but enough about vorefags.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615206
>Better disaster preparedness then the majority of developed countries.
Questionable. Especially in Japan.

>Youkai aren't terribly interested in micro-managing your life compared to Outside World politicians
? Very few outside world political desire that level of control. Maybe North Korea or China, certainly not a liberal country like Japan.

>Compare to things like pandemics or market crashes which have long lasting consequences.
They are still living in the fallout of the last time Hell tried to invade them.

>Gaining spiritual fulfillment is easy modo when you're in a land filled with proof of the divine.
That's the closest thing Gensokyo has to a benefit and it's really not much considering it basically just means "You can take comfort in the knowledge that your worthless wasted life isn't your only one".

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615221
>but there is the potential of you becoming a hermit or a magician and living for hundreds of years.
There's also the potential of becoming insanely rich in the outside world and uploading your brain into a computer.

>>44615229
I don't jerk off to it, I just find it funny when so much of the fantasy of Touhou is ending up in Gensokyo when it's very explicit that you would die, horribly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615228
>You can take comfort in the knowledge that your worthless wasted life isn't your only one
As oposed to your worthless wasted life at outside world?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615233
>when it's very explicit that you would die, horribly
Sumireko?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615233
The difference is that you can get rich by your own work alone, you either get born on a rich family or not. While in Gensokyo anyone can become a mahician or a hermit, it depends purely of your will power to do so.
And besides you can get mugged and killed by a nigger at streets any time too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615236
In the outside world, it's a choice. In Gensokyo, it's a guarantee and the reason you exist in the first place.

The only thing meaningful you could do in Gensokyo is tear it all down in a blaze of glory. Cause as much chaos as possible before you die.

>>44615241
Has psychic powers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615243
>While in Gensokyo anyone can become a mahician or a hermit,
That's VERY debatable since it requires, at the very least, a good mentor. It's equally as luck based, which is why there are so few of either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615247
How can i choose to have a meaningful life here at outside world? What is your secret? Having kids?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615247
>Has psychic powers.
Successfully pissed off everyone in Gensokyo. Attempted a suicide bombing that would have destroyed the entire thing. Wasn't under protection. Just forgiven after a short scare and allowed to keep visiting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615137
Correct.

>>44615115
It's not stated exactly in what form the humans they get blood from come in for what other Anons will say as soon asI post this. Everyone in Gensokyo is known to lie for various reasons or another so we, the reader, don't know the goings on in the background behind closed doors. With that said, they get humans to "feed" on from the Outside World per the Vampire Contract. We know that if the sisters bite someone the victim turns into a ghoul and dissipates in sunlight. With everyone being in everyone else's business, this would be bad publicity and Reimu would get involved heavily.
Remilia states that she doesn't need a lot and the victim rarely, if ever, dies. Sakuya prepares the food for them. We know this. Before anyone claims Flan's line from the end of EoSD about human food- she's never seen humans in living form before then and doesn't see Sakuya as one. They mix human blood into every meal the sisters eat, per Remilia. Reimu even shuts her up because if it's explained then Reimu has an obligation to stop it. Sakuya may have been a psychopath in the past and may have those same tendencies today, we don't know, but she isn't chopping up little girls and boys that the big bad evil youkai hunting parties pull in kicking and screaming as Remilia laughs. And since Youkai work on a conceptual level, then as long as belief and wordplay are involved there are workarounds. Case in point-"tea" is plant "blood" and Remilia can use that as a substitute. It's stated in one of the manga as such. You'll have to find it, I don't remember which one.
Finally, if anything at all, the only "human" they get is from the blood drained out of the corpses the rest of the youkai eat or they get it from blood banks in the Outside World. They may have used to slaughter when out here but they don't now.

>TL;DR: Sakuya doesn't. The sisters don't "eat" people. They lie to save face and keep the fear rolling and with Remilia being a high class gal, she wouldn't stoop to the level of the lower classes and eat people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615258
>How can i choose to have a meaningful life here at outside world
Earning money, gaining power and fame, and using it to try and reshape the world to your liking.

>What is your secret? Having kids?
Not having kids, finding something you are good at and can earn you money, and being very driven.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615247
>Has psychic powers.
Sumireko isn't actually that much of an outlier though. Fortune Teller proves that even ordinary human villagers can have abilities, and that's before getting into other examples like Renko and Maribel, as well as Sanae (who admittedly isn't as strong of a case because of her ancestry.)

Not to mention the Hifuu albums prove it's possible to even further develop one's Ability, even if it nominally "shouldn't be possible." If you're not stupid, and especially if you head to Gensokyo with proper preparedness and of your own accord instead of getting gapped, it isn't unreasonable for an ordinary Outside World human to survive, though you'd need a shitton of guile and grit alike if you wanted to make any real impact in the long term.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615270
>If you're not stupid, and especially if you head to Gensokyo with proper preparedness and of your own accord instead of getting gapped, it isn't unreasonable for an ordinary Outside World human to survive
Sumireko literally did none of this, invaded Gensokyo in the dumbest and most mutually destructive way possible, and got away with it. She's still wandering around Gensokyo and nobody really cares.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615267
>Earning money, gaining power and fame
Not gonna happen. You, me and no one here is going to be the next elon musk or whatever because we simply where not born at right place and at right time. If you think you can do that here there anyone can also become a magician/hermit on Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615280
Sumireko does have protection though, as we see with Yukari, among others, looking out for her. This is more an issue of the Maribel/Yukari possible time loop matter though, and when someone with meta-knowledge gets involved that suddenly becomes a very complicated issue of "Okay, how does the timeline work here? Can you change the future or will Yukari get grandmother paradoxed out of existence?"

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615233
>when it's very explicit that you would die, horribly
Isn't it only when you're gapped by Yukari as youkai food specifically?
By accident you can end up anywhere from near the Hakurei Shrine, Mayohiga or Muezunka which will give you a good chance of survival.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615300
She certainly didn't have protection during the Occult Balls incident, that's for sure. And yet, all the hus did was try and scare her a bit to teach her a lesson.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615261
All of which only happened because she had powers. If she didn't, she would have just been killed.

>>44615266
>everyone in Gensokyo is known to lie for various reasons or another so we, the reader, don't know the goings on in the background behind closed doors.
I mean, we do but the question that should be asked is "Are they lying?" and I don't see much of a reason to assume that they do. It's not like Yukari is above feeding people to Yokai and while it's true Remilia herself probably doesn't kill people directly I really don't think she would be above having her head maid do it.

It's also assuming a blood bank is a actual viable substitute, which is pretty debatable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615309
>All of which only happened because she had powers. If she didn't, she would have just been killed.
That wasn't even remotely referenced. All it was to them was a meddling outsider fucking about with the barrier, one of the biggest do-not-cross lines in Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615228
>Questionable. Especially in Japan.
They can literally stop floods and typhoons from being a threat to the village at all.

>certainly not a liberal country like Japan.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

In this case there would be plenty of busybodies in the Outside world. Youkai mostly fall into the Robber Baron types. As long as they get what they want out of you and you don't cause a fuss, they don't really care what you do.

>They are still living in the fallout of the last time Hell tried to invade them.
I'll give you this.

>it basically just means "You can take comfort in the knowledge that your worthless wasted life isn't your only one".
In a world where people lack meaning in their lives, having proof that life does matter means a lot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615306
She was barely involved in the Occult Balls incident until her own route, mostly letting the hus handle the heavy lifting of her own keikaku. As for them scaring her, that was explicitly their plan, just to scare her rather than to kill her off. Frankly, I would not at all consider it unlikely that a certain chuuni hag was responsible for that decision.
>>44615303
>Hakurei Shrine, Mayohiga or Muenzuka
Mayohiga and Muenzuka survival odds are situational. Really depends on if any of the man-eating youkai are there when you pass through the barrier. Again, though, just a modicum of preparedness is necessary. Frankly, a glock with silver bullets would probably be capable of defending yourself against most low-level youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615270
> Fortune Teller proves that even ordinary human villagers can have abilities,
Sure, but 1: Look it ended up for him. 2: You are not a human villager.

>nd especially if you head to Gensokyo with proper preparedness and of your own accord instead of getting gapped
That's probably not going to happen by default. But even if you do, no amount of preparedness is going to save you.

>>44615288
You don't have to be the next elon musk. People become rich as fuck all the time. Yeah, it's getting harder but it's still historically way easier than it's been for most of human history and certainly way easier than finding somebody on the level of Mima to teach you.

>>44615303
The usual wording is "Most outsiders are killed/eaten". It's possible to make it to safety, but it's basically a gamble where half of the places are a instant loss. Youkai mountain? Dead. Bamboo forest? Dead unless you stumble across the literally one person who might help you. Forest of Magic? Better odds with a whopping two people but still otherwise dead. That abandoned town Chen lives in? Dead.

Even the Hakurei Shrine isn't a guarantee since it's a favorite hunting spot for Youkai looking for outsiders.

[Anonymous No.]

What's more interesting about Sumireko, sorry to stop the edgewank for a minute, is how much she shows off how random outsiders can have powers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615332
>You are not a human villager.
Again, Renko and Maribel. It's incredibly likely that in Touhou's lore everyone has some form of latent Ability, and Fortune Teller, while based as all hell, did not think quite as far ahead as he should've. Going to Gensokyo is not a suicide mission, except for someone who apparently lacks even basic reading comprehension such as yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615323
>They can literally stop floods and typhoons from being a threat to the village at all.
Not entirely. Just signifincalty decrease the harm they can cause.

>a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
That's total nonsense and history has shown that.

>In this case there would be plenty of busybodies in the Outside world.
Most likely way less per capita.

> As long as they get what they want out of you and you don't cause a fuss, they don't really care what you do
They are actively looking to obtain influence and most of what they want from you is bad. They are a way bigger issue than some random politician you probably don't even know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615325
Falling Gensokyo is also going to be determined by when you arrived. In the daytime, most youkai are dormant, so are the animal predators, and you aren't at risk of falling into a ditch and breaking your neck.
We've seen regular human characters going to dangerous areas outside of the village, but they come out mostly unscathed while the sun is out.
At night though, you might want to hide in a bush somewhere and pray nothing finds you before the dawn.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615316
>That wasn't even remotely referenced.
Outsiders being murdered by Yokai has been a plot element since at least 2003.

>>44615323
>In a world where people lack meaning in their lives, having proof that life does matter means a lot.
It just leads to slave morality and people maintaining a bad status quo. Which is what it did for most of human history.

>>44615343
>Renko and Maribel.
Maribel is a special case and she still almost gets murked.

>It's incredibly likely that in Touhou's lore everyone has some form of latent Ability,
That's a big ass assumption. Especially now we know Renko's ancestor was literally psychic. I never get the sense the Touhou universe is secretly X-Men.

[Anonymous No.]

Most Outsiders' problems are that they really don't know enough to challenge a youkai to danmaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615356
>We've seen regular human characters going to dangerous areas outside of the village
They are villagers though.

>>44615338
It's odd, certainly. Especially considering she is a chuuni.

My personal fanon headcanon totally not based on anything theory is that they are leftovers. Like Sumireko's great, great grandmother probably fucked a yokai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615369
Only woman can compete in Danmaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615362
>Outsiders being murdered by Yokai has been a plot element since at least 2003.
Reading comprehension, nigga. Do you possess it? At no point in ULiL or any later material was it ever said or even vaguely referenced that youkai were treating Sumireko the suicide bomber with the kid gloves because she has powers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615343
>Renko
Her ability is Rinnosuke-tier of useless, the hell are she gonna do when a youkai attacked her?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615369
>Most Outsiders' problems are that they really don't know enough to challenge a youkai to danmaku.
They literally don't even know they are dealing with Yokai. It's explicitly mentioned they don't seem to recognize most of them as a problem until it's too late. At which point they are either killed straight away or interrogated for info and probably raped before being killed.

With that said, even if you do know you are dealing with Yokai you are still very unlikely to survive. A silver bullet might equal the odds a bit, but that's assuming they even allow you to bring a gun into Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615369
Actually, most of the outsider problems is not running the fuck away from a youkai when they see them and try to have a nice chat with them.
While it could be non-canon at this point for all we know, but Akyuu makes the hilarious observation that outsiders just walk into the jaws of youkai like idiots, but high tail it when they see a ghost.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615346
I don't know. I'd rather have Megumu or Mamizou then who we have now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615266
>With everyone being in everyone else's business, this would be bad publicity and Reimu would get involved heavily.
why would reimu get involved because outsiders are dying? mostly everyone makes it clear that they couldnt give less of a shit if outsiders get chomped on by youkai

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615375
No, men usually choose not to. Rinnosuke specifically does not want to play danmaku, but nothing stops him. Unzan plays danmaku with his Ichirin assistant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615381
> At no point in ULiL or any later material was it ever said or even vaguely referenced that youkai were treating Sumireko the suicide bomber with the kid gloves because she has powers.
It's not that they were treating her with kid gloves, is that's they weren't treating her as just a mobile lunch. Try and remember she can actually fight. Even when they try to scare her she still won most of the fights.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615392
And the fact they were just giving the Outsider a scare instead of violent death... is treating them with kid gloves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615309
Sakuya is known to have a soft spot for kids and gives Yukari a soft threat when she finds out about the kids in Mayohiga.
With that said, she works for a vampire and is highly loyal to her. I get what you're saying but from what I've read nothing shows Sakuya putting people on the chopping block. She doesn't need to for the sisters. They don't eat human meat. They drink blood and need it mixed into the high class luxury food that is prepared for them. The fairies don't eat human meat or drink blood, so they don't need it. Sakuya doesn't despite her dislike/disdain for other humans. Patchouli doesn't need to eat anything at all due to her nature as a natural born magician and when she does eat it's cakes, coffee, and tea. The only two that would "eat" human meat is Koakuma, who we're not even sure is a member of the mansion, or Meiling, who was only talking shit when she first met Reimu and Marisa. Logistics alone wouldn't make sense to kill, store,and eat human meat. The mansion makes money by selling wine the sell to the village and others. And knowing that Remilia is obsessed with anything "unique" and high class, that leads to a conclusion, but not the conclusion, that she would love the idea of having ready made, easy to store blood bags that she can pick by type, age, etc like a fine wine. She favors b type blood and hates bitter things. If she can tell a taste difference from blood types then she will definitely be picky about where her blood comes from. And you drain blood from meat. It makes sense to drain the victims and separate it up into parts for the different youkai, leaving the blood for them. As for viability of the blood bank, a long as they maintain a sense of fear then blood is a secondary issue.

[Anonymous No.]

Remember when Sumireko casually mentions that she got spirited away to Gensokyo as a kid in AFiEU? Not even children are exempt from Yukari's random kidnappings.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615385
I like that because it seems to imply the whole "Cute girl thing" might be at least partially a hunting strategy.

It's hard to say if it's still canon but I do imagine there is probably some truth to it. Take Mystia for instance.

>>44615386
Both are basically on par with the worst dictators in human history in mentality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615390
I wonder what kind of Danmaku a male would have. Unzen uses his fists for example.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615398
For starters I don't see Marisa or Miko, or even Reimu and Byakuren, go straight for the "brutal murder" option. Out of the playable cast only Mamizou really seemed like the type.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615404
Damn, that's another hole in the problem of Outsiders being systematically killed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615404
>Not even children
Not to try and sound full grimdark, but the term spiriting away tends to refer to children going missing and, since yokai partially need fear to survive, I imagine children are a very popular target for Yukari. Especially orphans or suicidal teenagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615422
>or even Reimu
Didn't read FS? Don't remember Fortune Teller-kun? Reimu is merciless when it comes to breaking rules that are grounds for death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615409
Woah, I can't believe the crow and the raccoon killed literally millions of people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615423
>Outsiders being systematically killed
which we all know is true. one (1) child managing to escape (either through the superpowers she seemingly randomly manifested or by reaching the hakurei shrine) doesn't prove anything. what it does prove is that youkai are evil kidnappers however

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615390
I was joking, but it's pretty fucked up how they choose the rules to suit women more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615435
grimsokyo retards on maximum cope now

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615423
At the end of the day grimsokyo fags are retarded, just like cutesokyo fags are retarded. Gensokyo exists in the middle somewhere and if you play your cards right you'll lean towards cute but fuck up and its grmsokyo for you. For the most part it's simple-shit's fucked but only if you tilt your head a certain way and do something stupid, but keep your nose clean and don't be a retard and you'll be relatively safe just like out here in the Outside World.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615401
>Logistics alone wouldn't make sense to kill, store,and eat human meat.
I partially agree, at the same time though Yukari doesn't really care much about logistics considering the way she handles the rest of Gensokyo's food supply. Which, unlike what goes on behind the doors of the SDM, is made pretty clear involves living humans.

> As for viability of the blood bank, a long as they maintain a sense of fear then blood is a secondary issue.
I meant it more as in "What exactly do they get out of blood?"

In a lot of vampire lore having your blood drunk by a vampire has a lot of negative effects because they are basically stealing your life. Now, I'll freely admit that doesn't HAVE to be the case in Touhou. We don't really know.

[Anonymous No.]

THESE are the cutesokyofags you're talking to RIGHT NOW

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615373
Villagers are still attacked. Reimu mentioned it in one of the manga, and she even says that when that happens, she normally doesn't get involved, or that is how I interpret it.
Though, what actually equates to being "attacked" is never really explained.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615445
If the blood thing is sucming your life then you could feed a vampire with sperm?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615423
? If you throw ten children in a pit of lions every week it doesn't suddenly stop being systematic murder just because one of them gets out.

>>44615430
Fortune Teller broke the one rule that carried the punishment of instant death. For what little it's worth, messing around with the barrier does NOT carry that stigma. Other characters have done it and not been killed.

Hell, other characters have done things that would have literally killed everybody in Gensokyo and not died.

>>44615432
I said mentality for a reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615437
Eh, choosing not to play a game is not the same as being discriminated against by it. For all we know, male youkai might be acting like screaming powerlevel chimps out to prove they're the strongest or die trying. Though given both Unzan and Rinnosuke's general personalities, plus the fact it's always women causing incidents, I actually suspect the opposite; male youkai are just substantially chiller and less trouble than the females.

[Anonymous No.]

>Sumireko
Well it's stated that why they specifically avoid killing Sumireko
And seeing that it's explicitly stated that they avoid killing her, means that she's in fact in danger

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615451
Well like the redditor number 2 said, its based on mythology so it while there are dark stuff there are also "cute" stuff like men marrying kitsunes and humans being taugh martial arts by forest oni. So this guy>>44615442
Is right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615442
> Gensokyo exists in the middle somewhere
Yeah, nobody is claiming it's actually grimdark.

>For the most part it's simple-shit's fucked but only if you tilt your head a certain way and do something stupid, but keep your nose clean and don't be a retard and you'll be relatively safe just like out here in the Outside World.
That's only true for natives.

[Anonymous No.]

imagine getting kidnapped to a fantasy land, juking the inhuman monsters out to kill you, but getting lost and just dying to the elements. talk about lame

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615467
I wonder if you could get a gf by impressing them with your danmaku skills the same way men here simp for woman who are good at video games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615151
>Youmu.
Well youmu is in an afterlife realm, so it makes sense for her to be a special case( unless she keeps dorking around in the world of the living)

>I don't see the good.
I guess I got a bit to biased from the first canon that had more balance, I thought that just having the chance at hand of living a live similar to Marisa could be nice.

>I guess? I don't know, I can't see it as a positive since it means bad people never face any real consequences.
Huh, guess this is really a two edged sword, kinda?
Bad people facing consequences is a bit tricky in Touhou there's at least hell, but I guess it stopped functioning since it sucks.
irl/outside world it also seems that as long as you have enough money you can get away with shit (unless you get too many enemies).
So I guess that's similar in both?

>Most of the wars before WW2
I meant right before, like buddhist priest getting murdered for not being Japanese enough and shit.

>In modern times? Not even a question in my opinion.
As said before I might be biased in this but nips in modern life don't look the happiest to me, although maybe rural areas are better.
The fact that some outsider stay seems to make it not so bad? At least it could work as a better alternative for whatever a suicidal guy that ended up there might have.

>>44615174
Witnesses when the nice neighbour turns out to be a serial killer.
I think it's a bit fun to have something darker without being 100% dark nor the bait and switch from cute to grim.

>>44615411
Rinnosuke uses whatever random tools he just got.... But I guess some would go the Koishi route but less subtle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615453
>Villagers are still attacked.
To be sure, but less often. Nitori for instance probably won't kill a villager, would be bad for business. But a outsider? Might as well kill them and take their anus ball.

>>44615458
I've actually thought about this way too much while thinking up my own vampire lore. And the answer is yes, but it's not quite as reliable as blood.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615458
No. That's only for the succubus type, which even though it's a close cousin doesn't mean the two cross over. Vampires fees off of "life force" which is the blood and Succubus feed off of "procreation force" which is tied to their origin of being barren and needing it to mate with the Incubus, but they don't drink it. They hold it inside, have hanky panky with the Incubus, which absorbs it like a cuck, then he goes and boinks a human female. The drinking cum thing came from porn.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615470
I want to question this in the context of Gensokyo's usual stance on outsider murdering. But it is mentioned that she has a entire computer filled with photos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615459
I'd still vote for them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615451
Are these cutesokyofags in the room with us right now?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615480
Gensokyo can be compared to a nature preserve.
It's not just the youkai that are dangerous.
Falling through the barrier cracks during winter while it's night will probably see you a frozen corpse before anything decides to eat you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615470
>they
Kasen, the oni pretending to be a hermit, one of the least harmful hus, with all her evil cut out of her, is specifically herself not trying to kill Sumireko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615510
Falling on the summer might be dangerous too since a insect bite could be lethal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615488
>Bad people facing consequences is a bit tricky in Touhou there's at least hell
It's hard to suffer from hell when you don't die.

>irl/outside world it also seems that as long as you have enough money you can get away with shit (unless you get too many enemies).
You can't really escape death in the outside world, which tends to help.

> like buddhist priest getting murdered for not being Japanese enough and shit.
Oh, that was pretty fucked up but not THAT bad for most regular Japanese people.

>but nips in modern life don't look the happiest to me,
It's mixed, but It's not noticeably bad.

Hell, if you want to bring stats into this the happiest people on the world are the Finish. Gensokyo is not Finland, nor is it ever going to be Finland unless a lot of Yokai end up dead.

>The fact that some outsider stay seems to make it not so bad?
We don't know why they stay. Also, Synopsium implies most of them don't do that well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615437
Not really. Just don't be an insecure man and it won't be a problem.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615499
You don't vote for youkai dictators, that's the issue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615520
Considering that to fall on Gensokyo you have to be lonely and not missed by anyone, i assume that the people who stays are doomers who simply have nothing to go back to at outside world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615470
When you think about it, all of youkai that Sumireko met in Gensokyo in her route is fairly chill youkai
>Kasen
>Ichirin
>Kokoro
>Marisa
>Shinmyoumaru (she's actually wants to kill Sumireko in her losing dialogue kek)
>Mokou
>Miko
>Reimu

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615451
Honestly, most of these people should just move on to Blue Archive or some other gacha game.

>>44615529
Yukari also just targets the weak. Being easily missed doesn't mean you are unhappy. Hell, even being suicidal doesn't mean you have nothing to live for. You could just be really depressed.

> assume that the people who stays are doomers who simply have nothing to go back to at outside world.
That is my assumption as well. That and the whole French foreign legion appeal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615535
None of these are chill, she never mets cirno.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm pretty curious what happens if someone mouths off a death curse to a youkai. In myths those things tend to be pretty vicious about getting fulfilled, especially if you call upon a god. Seems like it would be an occupational hazard for man eating monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

The conclusion that must be, should be, and has been reached is that Gensokyo is hell for 95% of humans and should be annihilated. An archaic nuke teleported directly over the human village would be more than enough to destabilize its barrier and disintegrate the thought forms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615535
>Fairly chill Youkai
>Mokou, Marisa, Reimu, Miko.

I know what you mean, but it's still kind of funny.

>>44615543
>None of these are chill, she never mets cirno.
Letty would have probably frozen her to death and used her corpse as a trophy.

Oh wait, that was from a different grimdark franchise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615362
>Especially now we know Renko's ancestor was literally psychic.
We do not have any confirmation that Renko descends from Sumireko. That girl has literally negative rizz, and again, if someone minor like Fortune Teller can develop an Ability, combined with Maribel being able to develop her own further, and, even more than that, the fact that Toyohime's shtick is based on quantum observation (see: literally just Phenomena Intervention from BlazBlue), there's no reason to believe that a sufficiently diligent human couldn't become a real power player in Gensokyo beyond the fact that the powers that be would prefer that not to happen. At that point, it's simply a question of "are you capable of outwitting these frankly mostly incompetent hags?"

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615518
Yeah, Outsiders who slip through the barrier are mostly Japanese citizens that are not paying attention until they suddenly find themselves in the wilderness. They are not prepared to meet the harsh elements.
I think Marisa actually makes a remark that does seem to imply that people mostly die from natural occurrences, and not the fantastical in Gensokyo.
That chapter in FS has her telling some servant kid that he really needed to stop crying about seeing a corpse, because you will find them outside of the village on occasion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615451
>1 year agor
>deleted account
Maybe he moved on from touhou like all secondaries do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615442
to be honest I only push back against grimsokyofags because they're more vocal and obnoxious, if cutesokyofags tried to make every thread about them I'd do the same thing

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615547
>I'm pretty curious what happens if someone mouths off a death curse to a youkai
I'm going to assume that requires you to understand magic, and on average that's not something outsiders or natives can do.

Honestly, I kind of wish we got a human village villain someday. A human who decides "Yeah, my life is trash so I might as well cause a incident to see how many Youkai I can kill before I'm murdered as well".

>>44615548
I agree. Death to all memes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615528
But if I could vote for them I would.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615548
I'm glad we've finally reached an agreement on something. Now that that's done, can we talk about some other aspect of the lore?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615551
>We do not have any confirmation that Renko descends from Sumireko.
Fair. Same for Maribel being Yukari.

> if someone minor like Fortune Teller can develop a ability
Again, he's a native.

>there's no reason to believe that a sufficiently diligent human couldn't become a real power player in Gensokyo beyond the fact that the powers that be would prefer that not to happen.
We have a example of that in Sakuya. My main point is more that it's not going to be you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615564
Oh, I absolutely agree.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615556
I always assumed that youkai are actually pretty hard to encounter. How many times do people encounter a bear for example when hicking?

[Anonymous No.]

Does youkai menstruate?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615556
>I think Marisa actually makes a remark that does seem to imply that people mostly die from natural occurrences, and not the fantastical in Gensokyo.
>That chapter in FS has her telling some servant kid that he really needed to stop crying about seeing a corpse, because you will find them outside of the village on occasion.
Source?

>>44615564
Do you live in opposite land or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615496
So, if koa didn't have the mana of Patchy/Remi to sustain her, she would just make Abe Proud and get F-o-r-c-e P-r-o-c-r-e-a-t-e-d-! with some outsider "life force"
what a succubus!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615583
Well if my trip to the woods in Japan is anything to go by, fairly fucking often.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615564
Ok Seija

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615583
It's hard to say, really. Official lore is actually pretty unclear on how many Yokai there are in gensokyo.

>>44615593
My stupid totally made up headcanon answer is that yokai don't have a working womb and shapeshift one when they decide to have a kid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615578
>Again, he's a native
Not him but i think that it does not matter because outsiders are still human. The reason youkai died off on the outside world is because humans stopped believing them, as soon a outaider saw that science does not applies to gensokyo i am sure he could awaken some abillity. Specially if it is some /x/ schizo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615583
Considering how that drunk old man in the LE manga went to the Forest of the Lost for days trying to find some glow in the dark bamboo shoots and never encountered anything, you are probably right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615608
>Not him but i think that it does not matter because outsiders are still human.
It's hard to say if it's worked because it's never explained how abilities actually work. Try and remember that by all account Marisa doesn't seem to have one.

[Anonymous No.]

Despite the grim vs cute faggotry here, its nice to see an actual discussion thread get so much replies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615583
>How many times do people encounter a bear
You don't go to the same bars as me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615612
It's hard to say since, again, he's not a outsider.

I do find it pretty morbid yet almost kind of funny though if most people that end up in Gensokyo just starve or freeze to death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615632
or used as a youkai communal sex toy until expiring from exhaustion

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615642
That's sadly only vaguely implied.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615594
I kind of like how Marisa doesn't mince words.
This is just a normal day in Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615529
Can we even be sure that it is part of modern canon? It's old lore from a source that's becoming increasingly dubious, and no subsequent material ever touched on it, to my recollection.
You'd think that someone like Kosuzu or Rinnosuke would go out of their way to befriend them, or at least come up in conversation somewhere, but that entire plot element just disappeared, as if ZUN didn't want to deal with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615646
Oni and tengu kidnap human men for a reason is all I'm saying. Funny how we've seen tengu kids but no tengu males. Someone's hiding sonething.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615642
God, I wish that were me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615578
>Same for Maribel being Yukari.
There's a lot more evidence for the latter than to suggest that Renko is a direct descendant with certainty, even if it's likely. Moreover, even if we assume Maribel isn't Yukari, Renko acknowledges that her Ability is developing, which "shouldn't be possible."

>My main point is more that it's not going to be you.
Speak for yourself, I have far more mythological, occult, and esoteric knowledge than some chuuni high schooler, and have actually put real thought into how I would handle such a scenario, including having lifelines on the Outside World side to a greater degree than Sumireko had.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615529
No, you don't have to be any of those.
That is who Yukari specifically targets, but humans fall into the trash dump area because of the weakness of the barrier.
Also, it's made clear that outsiders usually choose to leave, and only on rare occasions do they stay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615650
In context it's a bit less bad than how you described. Especially since it's played up somewhat as a joke.

I would say it doesn't necessarily mean they are more likely to freeze or starve than get eaten. Just that outside the village you are very likely to stumble across dead people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615547
Invoke Zeus. He's a patron of hospitality to strangers, gets super cruel about punishing people who violate it (see Tantalus), and we know even barely remembered members of the Greek pantheon are big fish in the Gensokyo pond.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615663
>very likely to stumble across dead people.
>gensokyo isn't that big
how many outsiders are just dying outside the village's walls?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615565
Yukari with her zashiki spy would deal with that problem before some human become full incel shooter

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615656
I wonder if you could also apply science knowlegede along with magic. Like for example if you have some deep knowledge about chemistry you could creatse a transmution spell by rearraging the atoms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615624
It's definitely a refreshing change of pace to see a decently honest debate about how dangerous Gensokyo is with the usual levels of shitflinging.
>400+ replies on page 2
Love to see it happen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615663
Youkai won't just leave a corpse behind, they wouldn't leave a meal to just rot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615676
patchy says science and magic are two sides of the same coin, and even considers the saturn V rocket to be an outside world "spell", so that sounds plausible

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615667
And knowing Zeus with his favour your hentaisokyo dreams might even come true.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615651
It was mentioned as late as Synopsium. Which, granted, is more than a decade ago.

>You'd think that someone like Kosuzu or Rinnosuke
I doubt Kosuzu would give a fuck, especially now that she's become complicit in their murder. Rinnosuke meanwhile probably would but even around the time that was still new lore he never showed much interest.

My headcanon theory is that Marisa's dad was a former outsider and she ended up befriending Rinnosuke that way.

>>44615652
>Oni and tengu kidnap human men for a reason is all I'm saying.
I mean Oni eat humans and Tengu in canon mostly try to keep humans away from Yokai mountain.

With that said, it's hot so I'm fine with it as a idea and it should be made canon asap.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615672
Probably not THAT many. At least compared to most other places in Gensokyo.

>>44615673
Probably? I don't know, I feel there are ways around that. FT clearly did a lot of stuff in secret otherwise his plan would have never even gotten off the ground.


>>44615679
They would probably leave quite a bit of meat and bones behind. Humans don't have that much meat on them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615676
>>44615680
It gets even more interesting when you note stuff like the classical element of Aether and its renewed relevance with regards to theories of granular spacetime, not to mention its myths of "removing illness and impurity from the human body," meaning there's a non-zero chance anyone practicing western alchemy might attract the attention of the Lunarians. Doubly so if they have even a passing knowledge of quantum mechanics.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615652
Oni, sure. They're drunken, disgusting brutes so kidnapping a man for such awful purposes are just like them. Probably the only way they can get laid. Tengu have no need for such barbarous methods. They could easily woo any human they liked and have no need to lower themselves to such lecherous behavior. Unless they enjoyed it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615714
>FT clearly did a lot of stuff in secret
And I guess he also realized there's an active youkai network in the village's shadows so he mostly keeps to himself

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615680
That's why Patchy is someone I respect despite her 'tism. No, because of her 'tism and love for books and the fact that she's my wife's best friend.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615721
Uh, oh.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615729
>They could easily woo any human they liked and have no need to lower themselves to such lecherous behavior.
It's a question of pride. A tengu would never lower themselves to try and seduce a human villager. Think of it like this: does a Welsh farmer need to seduce his sheep?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615744
>does a Welsh farmer need to seduce his sheep?
Should we tell him?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615730
He was able to use divination to look into the outside world. I doubt "These obvious spies are obvious spies" was all that hard to figure out.

Seriously though, if I lived in Gensokyo I would abuse the Zashiki's out of principal. Creepy things...

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615752
Calm down jiji

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615786
based rape dungeon villager

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615786
He wants to keep them in, I want to kick them out.

The last thing I want is having somebody stare at me while I'm sitting in my home being miserable because I don't have a computer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615632
While it doesn't explicitly say what she really means, Aya described treating Kosuzu very differently if she met her outside the village.
Then of course there is Reimu's line about villagers being attacked outside of the village being okay in WaHH.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615803
>Aya described treating Kosuzu very differently if she met her outside the village.
True, but in her case that doesn't mean attacking. Aya isn't really the type of Youkai to do that.

>Then of course there is Reimu's line about villagers being attacked outside of the village being okay in WaHH.
Didn't she also say something like that in EoSD? Either way, it does make sense. Even it's not a unspoken rule, it's pretty hard for Reimu to solve a murder case I imagine. If you are attacked and killed there isn't much she can or will do. She's no Sherlock Holmes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615743
Danger? Shouldn't be anything too bad if you're not a certain dumbfuck blonde who lost twice and still can't figure out that she shouldn't mess with the moonies. Toyohime, as Earth's "warden" in the eyes of the Lunarians, is pretty chill, and Eirin is the only planetside one that would care, and she's not too likely to cause trouble for anyone minding their own business. The biggest issue is if Reisen gets spooked and tries to start shit, but then again, that only is an issue if you decide to overtly announce "I'm researching the alchemical base of the cosmos!" To all of Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

Earth would beat the shit out of the Moon if a war broke out anyways. Moonies are of no threat

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615817
>lost twice
merely pretended to lose both times
the first so she could teach the youkai a lesson
the second so she could sneak the black hole into the moon

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615830
Don't forget that the Lunarians, in their infinite wisdom, are partially responsible for humanity even reaching such a state. Kaguya mentions the branches of hourai that were given to humans to bless them with authority over others on Earth repeatedly led to succession crises that resulted in human technology and society developing further, which was "all according to plan" for the Lunarians.

There is perhaps no race in Gensokyo and all its connected Otherworlds with a greater subconscious desire to be colonized than they.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615815
In the same chapter, Mamizou said she could easily just murder Kosuzu and steal her shit, but she doesn't do it because it's against her nature, not that it's against the rules.
Youkai are monsters, no matter how cute they look.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615848
>merely pretended to lose both times
A paper-thin narrative that falls apart the moment she acknowledges that her second invasion is "for revenge." There's no need to take revenge for a successful mission. To say nothing of the fact that if Toyohime was feeling just a little less magnanimous, that Yook would've been atomized with the entire Bamboo Forest of the Lost.

Yukari may have luck on her side, but she's no scheming mastermind like Light, Lelouch or Johan Liebert, much as she likes to think she is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615879
What exactly did the Lunarians do with her anyways? I find it just odd that Toyohime just said you are our prisoner, and that was that, nothing else.
With Reimu, being used to prove the sister's innocence and let go was one thing, but why did they release a youkai that attacked the moon twice?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615891
The reason Reisen 2 was there was to take photographs of Yukari in bondage that they can use as leverage to keep her from attacking the moon again.

I'd have to double-check but IIRC Toyohime was notified of something that needed her attention back at the capital through Rabbit Radio and decided that she'd clowned on Yukari enough to prove her point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615871
Mamizou is a particularly large shithead, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615879
I'm thinking that maybe Toyohime is a bit bored with the eternal moonie life with not much happening around so she enjoys Yukari's fooling around.
>>44615593
Animal youkai might have more of their animal nature so most likely not.
As for "normal" youkai I don't even think they have any sexual organs if they never age and only feed on fear.
Magicians might take it away with the need of food, it's probably the worms fault anyways.
Oni maybe if their alcoholism hasn't completely sterilized them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44616262
>Animal youkai might have more of their animal nature so most likely not.
>As for "normal" youkai I don't even think they have any sexual organs if they never age and only feed on fear.
Half-youkai exist, remember.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44616548
>Half-youkai exist, remember.
Was it specified that he's that because of his parents?
He could also be the result of some magician or similar fooling around with souls.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44616612
I'm gonna step in and point out that in Japanese folklore Youkai can and have been known to have children with humans before, so it's not a totally impossible situation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44616656
I know about foxes but not about non animal youkai, so I thought that maybe the weird undefined 2hu youkai might not be that.
But yeah, I forgot how in mythology banging almost anything can give kids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615593
Some youkai apparently lay eggs. We know for sure that tengu and cat youkai do, from that one fairy manga where the gang found one. So I would err on the side of no, they lay eggs instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44616984
>cat youkai laying eggs, maybe all youkai do
Can't believe youkai are like pokimon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617158
Where do you think they got the idea from?

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617181
Hmm both started at 1996...
Still 2hus might have more of a digimon complexity level of evolution, a human can become almost every other species in Touhou

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617233
I meant pokemons laying eggs from youkai....

[Anonymous No.]

Tengu eggs...

[Anonymous No.]

>>44615520
>It's hard to suffer from hell when you don't die.
>You can't really escape death in the outside world, which tends to help.
Hmm, kids of rich families tend to inherit the money and get educated to keep their position so not sure if this becomes any better, stuff like >>44615233
>There's also the potential of becoming insanely rich in the outside world and uploading your brain into a computer.
Doesn't help much since I guess soon they could have immortality.

> the happiest people on the world are the Finish.
Well guess that's nice since I remember them having depression problems( but that was probably more than a decade ago), guess some things do get better.

I think my view on history and modern times got a bit brighter, you seem pretty reasonable. Nice to have a place where civil discussion exists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617287
No anon cat eggs... imagine the bentous rin could make....
Wait a minute, aren't non fertilized eggs the period birbs have? Does that mean that youkai also lay those and then kinda count as them menstruating?

[Anonymous No.]

Imagine the size of the omelette she could make.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617367
>MAKING THE MOTHER OF ALL OMELETS, REIMU!

[Anonymous No.]

>>44612669
Pretty sure regular youkai still exist, we usually only see the gijinka ones because thats Touhou's whole appeal

[Anonymous No.]

>>44617367
I hope that wasn't laid by a humanoid one. it's dam huuge, it looks like a dino or dragon egg.
>>44624012
Some non-humanoid youkai appear in FS like pic-rel or the headless horse youkai, but considering the advantages of looking like a human to attract humans and the human being spiritually ideal or something like >>44613764 said. And the more powerful beings being humanoid is a very common nip trope.

[Anonymous No.]

>>44626283
>I hope that wasn't laid by a humanoid one.
I do.

[Anonymous No.]

Question: Are half Youkai the master race? RInnosuke is a dumb nerd, but assuming he trained on the level of somebody like Marisa he would pretty quickly become ridiculously strong.