/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It's more likely that your mind will be trapped in a horrible, unending vertex of unbelievable torment.

Bullies don't have microtubules

>>9971478
No, that means once you die it's over, reincarnation doesn't exist.

I hope this is true. I like when ``skeptics'' are all NUH-UH THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS CONSCIOUSNESS then some nerds are all, "Well here's a report proving there is a global consciousness with statistically significant results."

>>9971484

I was having this thought the other day.

>>9971478
>Quantum theory

In other words it's more unprovable bullshit. Good to know.

What do these clowns even define as "a soul"?

>The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe

I guess Sagan and the hippies were right all along.

I am the universe

They'll never be able to do that because the concept of perception exists outside of the world of physics.

>>9971488
>NUH-UH THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS CONSCIOUSNESS
Which (self-labeled) skeptic has said this? I'd like to ridicule him/her for being retarded.

On topic of the article: they said they can prove it - let's examine the proof, then. Until they show their evidence, there really isn't much to discuss.

Please do not commit self-dissipation, /jp/.

I will miss your current configuration of atoms if you go.

>>9971486

Good. I want to live as a ghost and travel to other worlds.

>>9971510

Well duh, matter cannot be created or destroyed. I knew that shit already.

If this is true then where does my soul go? Do I just join with some kind of big universal soul consciousness and observe the universe like a god? Does this mean we become god when we die?

>>9971536
Yes.
Enjoy peeping on everyone.

So if souls exist what happens if you mass produce them?

>>9971541
They lose their value

>>9971549
Souls don't have value in the first place.

>>9971552
You can't prove that.

>>9971554

Think about it from an economic stand point. Trillions of humans have died and all there souls are now on the market. If there isn't a huge demand to offset that supply the price of souls will dip to near nothing.

>>9971560
Why would anyone need souls?

This article doesn't really say a lot.

>The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large.

Is a suspect statement. Elementary particles change in quantum number readily, and would do so as soon as the brain starts to decompose and cause the "soul" molecules to react.

>>9971564
Have you not read Fullmetal Alchemist

>>9971536
Then after death shit just stops running. You need functioning organs to consciously experience things.

Remember what it was like before you had a consciousness (in laymans terms - before you existed [more accurately, when the matter you consist of was arranged so that it doesn't compose a sentient being])? I think it's going to be just like that.

>>9971564

>Yeh mate and I'm the easter bunny of Brisbane
why are british people so unfunny

What is ego death then?

We know that ego death exists. The monks experience it with meditation and don't use any mind altering substances to get to that point, but the layman can experience it as well with DMT or large doses of psilocybin or LSD. So everyone can experience ego death at any given time and validate its existence, but if the ego/self is just an illusion that's fabricated by the mind then what is the soul?

>>9971568
That sounds absurdly redundant.

>>9971574

Australian more likely.

What a load of shit.

>>9971577

The soul is the only "real" thing in this reality, thats why you experience so much unexplainable craving for something else than this... Its to leave the bodily shell and experience omnipresence.

>Dr Hameroff explained the theory at length in the Morgan Freeman-narrated documentary Through the Wormhole, which was recently aired in the US by the Science Channel.

Wch episod?

>>9971564
Powering enchantments.

>>9971568

>Remember what it was like before you had a consciousness

I don't even remember what it was like when I was 3 years old though, but I still had a consciousness at that point. I just can't remember any of the experiences that I had and aside from pictures and stories that family members tell me I have no reason to believe that I even existed prior to around when I was 6 or 7. I can't remember anything from before that age and even what I can remember is very faint.

That article is short and more mystical than scientific.

Does someone have a better article, or a link to some papers about it?

>>9971577
This is my biggest issue with the "soul" concept. It doesn't do anything.

>>9971595

You do remember, just not consciously.

When do babies form "souls"? We need to know so we can legalize abortion quicker.

>>9971564
I've been playing this a bit too much lately.

>>9971604

The soul most probably chose to reincarnate in that form (who the hell knows right...), we dont create babies out of nothing. At least imo.

>>9971608

Pretty sure the stork brings babies. he must put the soul in.

I swear, quantum science sounds a little more like a religion than a science every single day.

Yes, it could choose to be a aborted baby...probably a bigger learning experience than we imagine.

>>9971619

I would say its 75 - 25% though...90% is a bit harsh.

>>9971486
>No, that means once you die it's over, reincarnation doesn't exist.
If this holds right then something could "pick you up" before you disappear. And even though we don't know what that would be, something very well could.

>>9971619
"Subconscious" is pseudoscientific bullshite. You have the unconscious mind, the preconscious mind, and the conscious mind. Even that is just a convenient abstraction created by a Jew who gets way too much credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR

For those interested.

Jesus Christ, I can't figure out a goddamn thing in this article. Why was I born so stupid?

>>9971632
That's a lot of words

The problem we have with consciousness is that we have to believe its a ego thing, and not connected to everything and all.

>>9971611

People often mistake quantum theory as a pretty new thing that is mystical, magical, and unprovable because of how pop-science likes to jump to conclusions.

It's actually completely central to all modern science and isn't really "magical" at all.

They didn't even bother giving us a definition or even a description about the thing they claim they can prove exists. That's like saying they found a God.
This sort of claims do not belong in the field of science because they're not falsifiable. The claim "there are souls inside our brain cells" is not a testable hypothesis until we have a strict definition on what a soul is and how it affects its environment.

I hope I don't get punished for all the bad crap I've done in this lifetime and for being a lazy NEET.

>>9971638

Maybe the body separates the soul from the universe and gives rise to the ego, while limiting overall intelligence.

Granted, much like the Orch-OR theory, this isn't based on any actual science.

>>9971642

Who said the soul has to be IN our bodies?

>>9971650

bingo

>>9971642
That's how science works. A theory is true unless somebody can prove otherwise.

This is how Freud described the different levels of awareness, and it's where the idea of the subconscious came from. Most people who talk about the subconscious actually mean the unconscious or preconscious mind.

>>9971658

Thank you.

> live within our brain cells
Haha wow. So they're trying to say that we have our consciousness in our brain? Holy shit, that's some big ass discovery.

Also when we die our brain will disappear and the "soul" too. This is nothing new, just playing with words to sound important. In fewer words this >>9971585

>>9971641
Quantum superposition sounds a lot like magic to me.

>>9971654

This is not how science works.

>>9971652
American Dr Stuart Hameroff and British physicist Sir Roger Penrose did, as news.com.au reported.

>>9971658
Why are you still posting freud shit?

"We live within our braincells" is pretty much admitting that this whole reality is a load of horseshit.

All power to them...

>>9971577

The soul is what you are during ego death. Everyone has a soul, but we all share one universal soul and there is no more separation. The universe itself is essentially the soul, if that's what you want to call it.

If ego death was the death of the soul then you would just lose the ability to be consciously aware of anything the second that you experience it, but that doesn't happen.

What we perceive as our self doesn't exist at that point. Your personality, your ideas and opinions, all of that is gone, but something is still there because you're able to consciously experience ego death and that something is the soul. The ego is confined and it experiences the world from the perspective of your body, it causes you to feel a sense of separation between you and the universe, but the soul experiences everything and when you exist as just the soul without the ego then there is no separation and you fully experience that you and the universe are the same thing.

>>9971632
>Why was I born so stupid?
Stop being stupid.

>>9971673
You can't. You either have it or you don't.

>>9971664
That's because the Universe doesn't follow our rules. Strange shit happens, though it's only strange to us because we see things in a very "human" way. It's similar to how people in the old days realized they made things, therefore something must have made them, so they came up with the idea of a "god". God may be a silly idea in this day and age, but to the people at the time it was a perfectly sensible explanation.

>>9971654

No no no. You have it backwards, anon. A theory is never really "true", even after it undergoes vast levels of scrutiny, and has mountains of evidence to support it. Even then, it is not proven. It's highly-probabilistic, and is held in constant flux in relation to other, increasingly complete theories.

I'm also really tired and explaining this poorly, I apologize. I have to go take an exam soon-thank God it's not on this shit.

>>9971678
Have you ever actually tried learning things like mathematics? You don't grab the book thinking "oh mi gosh this is going to be hard, besides I will never need it". You grab the book to learn.

>>9971673
Intelligence is mostly genetically determined. It's not fair, but neither is being born happy or attractive.

>>9971664

Reality is far more disturbing, confusing and "magical" than any sort of fantastical thing humanity can possibly conceive of, which isn't surprising, considering humans are a product of that absurdity.

I'm waiting for the proof before I say whether they aree right or not.
More importantly is whether there's any use in this. If it could lead to 'extracting' the 'soul' in some way then maybe if not there's no real point other then entertainment

>>9971681
This is true scepticism, as described by the Ancient Greeks.

"Nothing can be known, not even this."

>>9971683
You're confusing intelligence with knowledge again.

Go play D&D.

>>9971683

Not the anon, but I tried that for a good 16 years before giving up. Seriously; I lack some sort of intrinsic intelligence. My short term memory is a fucktarded mess. I forget axioms, laws and rules, and forget what I'm doing halfway through equations. I have a hard time even keeping number sums in my memory for a few seconds, or sometimes in counting decimal places or even number order.

I am, what you may call, fucking retarded.

>>9971689
So?

>>9971679
>That's because the Universe doesn't follow our rules.
This sounds an awful lot like "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't it?

In what way is quantum superposition even remotely testable, when the entire goddam theory is based on observing stopping it from happening?

>>9971696

I suggest you try to learn what superposition actually IS before you decry it.

>>9971688
This dubs dude got it right.
First thing you must ask yourself when encountering off-the-hook bullshit theories is "What, if any, are the applications of this theory?" If the theory has no utilitarian value, you can dismiss it at your leisure.

>>9971510
Does this mean that all "things" in the universe have souls? I mean, when a black hole takes in matter and releases it through evaporation... this could solve the mystery of whether the information is kept and how

In before /x/ visit...

>>9971695
The point is that you keep inquiring, but no answer will ever be enough. Too many people think they've solved something so they stop looking for answers, only to find out they were wrong later down the line.
The first sceptic, Pyrrho, was pretty /jp/. He lived as a hikikomori for a while, and advocated the principle of ataraxia, which is a Greek word meaning "take it easy". He was also moe and tried to walk off a cliff.

>>9971702
yup

shinto is the only true religion after all

Science is a model which does things in the same way as the universe.

It is not meant to be a literal documentation of the universe, but a means of quantifying what the universe does.

It doesn't matter if the model doesn't make sense to us, or if it is even contradictory with another accepted model - as long as it does the right thing, in the right circumstance, it fulfils its purpose.

Most of science is huge approximations that only work in certain circumstances, but that's good enough for what we do, and probably the best we can do.

This microtubule theory sounds a little too farfetched and overly-hopeful to me.
Come back when you have some solid proof.

>>9971702

Everything in the universe is part of the soul, but not everything in the universe is capable of developing an ego.

>>9971688
>'extracting' the 'soul'

true satanism

>>9971700
I don't remember the exact quote, but when people were saying "herp derp what is the Higgs boson good for?" a lot of people countered by mentioning that an investor once asked Thomas Edison if electricity even had any practical applications. Not sure if it's true or not.

>>9971724
Thomas Edison was an asshole, though.

So, how does it feel to know that the Star Wars prequels were right all along?

>>9971697
That doesn't answer my question. If you're so much more quantum-savvy than I am then it should be easy.

>>9971729

You'd really have to learn all the prerequisites before trying to learn Superposition.

>>9971727
Here's a thing you should read:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/05/18/nikola-tesla-wasnt-god-and-thomas-edison-wasnt-the-
devil/

Read the Oatmeal webcomic first, if you haven't already.

>>9971692
"I can't understand a scientific Wikipedia article because I'm stupid"
Really?

>>9971733
>http://www.forbes.com

Oh boy...

>>9971712
>Most of science is huge approximations that only work in certain circumstances, but that's good enough for what we do, and probably the best we can do.
That kind of attitude pisses me off. If we have time to do stupid shit then we have time to get things right.
We're humans from Earth, for fuck's sake. Our very existance revolves around perfection and evolution, not stagnation and giving up.
We shouldn't stop until we know everything, and when we do that we'll become gods in our own right.

I believe what everyone calls a "soul" is nothing more than a sense like sight or taste. It's just a little more advanced in us humans than in animals.

People just don't want to admit that they aren't as important as religion wants them to believe.
They are all afraid of dying.

>>9971724
Thomas Edison lit a fucking lightbulb with it last I checked. What have they done with the boson? Oh that's right, they just went back to spending billions of dollars blowing up atoms over and over.

>>9971743

true satanism

>>9971743

We can't, though.

There's way too any variables.

Even some more advanced calculations of single molecules take an impossibly long time to compute.

We can't possibly know what is actually correct, only the results of our experiments, from which we make up a model that does the same thing.

It's like throwing a ball around in a pitch dark room, then trying to draw the room by the sounds it makes.

".au"
Let me know when credible people say something important.

>>9971732
That's probably true. Quantum mechanics still sound like wizardry to me, but I guess that's what they say about sufficiently advanced technology.

The other parts of my brain that are in control of personality and ego and things that people would conveniently call "me" still die though. What relevance does having soul mean if it does not retain who I am? or is that soul really what I am?

>>9971522
this is what true skepticism is all about

>>9971740

>>9971624
for a common man it does apply

>>9971741
>Thomas Edison lit a fucking lightbulb with it

That wasn't the first thing he (or electrical engineers in general) did. That electricity had to come from somewhere. Plus, what use is a lightbulb when we already have fire?

Just remain optimistic. If we've found out what gives objects mass, maybe we can alter the mass of objects. High speed travel, hoverboards, easier piano moving...think of all the cool sci-fi things we probably won't be able to do but maybe can.

>>9971765
>or is that soul really what I am?

bingo

>>9971754
Just you wait until I've solved the P=NP? problem.

>>9971754
waah waaah trying is HARD!! waah!

>>9971754
>can't, can't, can't
Sure, if we tred to grab the moon out of the sky we'd just end up grasping at the air; that's why we need to do other things first.
Do you really expect us to be able to do everything without improving ourselves and our technology first?
Stop being so impatient, if we give up then we'll never be able to do anything.

>>9971783

I'd like to see a NEET win it, take the money and then never do an interview or a speech or anything.

Just give me the money and go away.

>>9971791
This is my dream. One of these days I'm going to become one of those super-genius hermits and solve all the remaining Millennium Prize Problems.
So far I've downloaded three ebooks and done most of the addition and subtraction videos on Khan Academy, so at this rate I should have two or three of them solved by next year.

>>9971733
Edison was still an asshole. Thanks for pitching this my way, though, both things (oatmeal's comics and the article) were an interesting read.

>>9971799

It might be a little tougher than that. I'm not saying it's not possible but you're going to be in it for the long haul.

p=np is a lot more complex than it looks. You can do it if you put your life into it though.

>The P versus NP problem is a major unsolved problem in computer science. Informally, it asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer. It was introduced in 1971 by Stephen Cook in his seminal paper "The complexity of theorem proving procedures" and is considered by many to be the most important open problem in the field. It is one of the seven Millennium Prize Problems selected by the Clay Mathematics Institute to carry a US$ 1,000,000 prize for the first correct solution.

Do computer scientists have autism?

What kind of sperglord would pay one million dollars to have an answer to that weird shit?

>>9971811
>Do computer scientists have autism?
Yes.

>>9971811

You just made me rage inside. so fucking hard

>>9971800
Oh, he was certainly a douche. So were plenty of historic figures. It's just that people like to make him out to be Satan incarnate who was Tesla's arch-nemesis in an underdog story about a loving, mad scientist battling against a thieving, corporate capitalist. Pseudo-nerds like that sort of thing.

>>9971791
I don't think the Nobel prize Zionist comitee would pick people that would do such a thing. They background check and get in touch with the winner before announcing who won. If they see the winner is bananas, they'll award it to one of the other candidates.

Nothing stops you from dissing the comitee afterwards, though. Unless they also make you sign some kind of contract for the prize money.

>>9971823

Nobel prize? These are the millennium problems anon.

>>9971811
There are real problems that, even with the fastest supercomputer, would take more than the age of the Universe to solve.

If you solve the P = NP problem, you would either a) find a faster solution to thousands of such problems simultaneously, or b) tell everyone they should give up and do something else. It's useful.

>hurr durr microtubules

this doesn't change anything.

dream on, faggots.

>>9971823
It's the Millennium Prize from the Clay Mathematics Institute. You get the money and award for solving it.

>>9971799
It's always a good idea to mock new people away if they get interested in something constructive. It is the case especially if the matter is sensitive.

>>9971811

Modern science seems interesting when we look at it from a distance and see the stuff that is eventually made, but the actual stuff that they do is really fucking boring. Every scientist and mathematician and all of those people, basically every intellectual field out there, they all have something strange going on in their heads that makes them feel fascinated with really boring stuff.

They sit around all day thinking about lines and numbers and who knows what else. Science has just gotten to the point where all the useful stuff has already been discovered so now they just sit around and do things that no one really cares about at all.

>>9971849

p=np? is incredibly useful to computer science and math. I don't know what you're talking about.

>>9971855

>useful to computer science and math.

It's useful to advanced computer science and advanced math, both of which are meaningless to everyone outside of that field.

It's completely masturbatory. They're like those old guys that collect model trains. I'm sure they would be thrilled if someone invented a new special type of track for them to use, but no one else gives a shit.

>>9971871
Just stop.

>>9971871
>It's useful to advanced computer science and advanced math, both of which are meaningless to everyone outside of that field.
Please! Please! Who is this nigger and why is he trying to destroy the world?

>>9971849
>them feel fascinated with really boring stuff.
The only reason it seems boring is that you're too stupid to comprehend it.
Why do you think you can spend hours inside a game, defeating progressively stronger virtual enemies or play Touhou? Because it gives you excitement if you can defeat a hard boss. If it's too hard, you will probably give up. If it's just hard enough, you will feel ecstatic and keep going.
I'm so sorry nobody tells you that many people have a job that they see as an incredibly awesome game (which is also very rewarding). But just because you gave up in Touhou, doesn't mean others don't find fun in beating it.
>all the useful stuff has already been discovered
Translation: how can I be more stupid?
Come back when we've cured cancer, become immortal and traveled to other star systems.

>>9971658
>Freud

Souls are not thermodynamically compatible.
If your theory goes against thermodynamics, I recommend changing the theory.

>>9971871
Just wondering, what kind of a device are you using to currently shitpost on /jp/?

>>9971632
Okay I can give you an analogy: Basically circular reasoning, on a quantum level.

Wait a second here, Penrose isn't claiming an immortal soul, he's claiming a source of consciousness. And if soul, it's tied to the functioning of brains.

Fucking christians latching onto shit they don't understand to fuel their idiocy

>>9971889

>Come back when we've cured cancer, become immortal and traveled to other star systems.

It's this kind of thinking that's going to destroy humanity. Every major advancement that science makes is immediately used to make weapons that are increasingly more and more powerful and will wipe out all of humanity.

We have nuclear power now, which is still barely even used that much, but we now have nukes and we can easily kill every human on the planet within a day if we want to. No fucking thank you, it would have been preferable if they never discovered any of that.

Humans are fine as we are right now. You guys have done enough damage. Just stop before you kill us all.

Chasing after immortality and space travel? What a joke. You're just going to find some way to blow us all up long before that ever happens.

>>9971903
Your ass is not thermodynamically compatible.
A soul is something people pull out of their ass from popular folklore. Its properties are only less well-understood than how much feces the Loch Ness monster craps out every day.
Consciousness is a different thing.

>>9971799
>So far I've downloaded three ebooks and done most of the addition and subtraction videos on Khan Academy, so at this rate I should have two or three of them solved by next year.
I laughed so hard that my mom came in and asked me what was wrong.

>>9971903
They have all the right in the world to replace thermodynamics with their theory. They just have a majestic shitload of proving to do, that's all.
Right now all they have is a hypothesis, really - it's just popular media that likes to use the word theory when they mean hypothesis, and fact when they mean theory.

>>9971694
Don't worry, you're cute.

>>9971929
1 reply~

>>9971929
This is actually how Republicans in America are like.
I wonder when things went wrong with that party. Now they are just a superstitious lot that rely on emotional arguments and try to spread FUD. All they can talk about is how they're horrified emotionally by the idea of abortion and that the earth is more than 6000 years old.

>>9971478
This link doesn't even work for me. It just says "Page not found"

>>9971889
>become immortal
That isn't possible without escaping this universe.

>>9971541
We create robololis and live happily ever after.

>>9971889
>The only reason it seems boring is that you're too stupid to comprehend it.
Stop putting science on a pedestal; subjective thinking is human and not objective.

Didn't read the article. Didn't read the thread. Microtubules aren't magic. Fuck people who think they know other fields better than experts in that field.

>>9971992

I don't mind puting science on a pedestal. It created the internet and the PC I'm using.

Praise science!

>>9971992
>human and not objective.
Stop being stupid. In empirical science, we don't give a shit about "absolute truth". If that were the case people would only be discussing fairy tales. We only care about results that can make reliable predictions in the circumstances we care about.

We need less technology and more love and kindness.

Our minds are advancing faster than our hearts. We aren't really even ready for the technology that we have today, we're still too violent and angry to use it responsibly.

>>9972085

FUCK YOU

>>9972091

Heh, you made me choke up my cinnamon toast crush as soon as I clicked update.

>>9972085
No. We need more education. Emotions are only exploited by politicians. Love and hate are two sides of the same things. Just look at abortion clinic bombing.

>>9972091
Peace and love!

>>9972101
Good, I hope you die from choking on cereal.

>quantum

Remember when we used to call it "magic"?

>>9972113

I'll haunt you until you die meanie.

>>9972116

Is your computer magic?

A radio?

>>9972122
How can you haunt me if souls don't exist?

>>9972116
When someone who knows what he's talking about says 'quantum', they mean something very small.
I use the term quantum scale- because that infers that it's the scale at which quantum effects become important. (which is like atom size)
Quantum effects are replicable and predictable.

>>9971484
>>9971494
What if you are trapped in darkness for ever? You can think but you can't see, feel, hear or sense anything because you don't have a body. So you just sit there. Forever.

Holy hell, the collective intelligence of /jp/ is a bit greater than I expected. You can turn off your autism, if you try.

>>9972130

Quantum actually means non-continuous. Quantised. Like how the "integers" of light are photon; can't have 1.5 photons of light.

>>9972125
>>9972130
He's talking about how people add quantum to everything to explain the unexplainable.

>>9972129
Dr Stuart Hameroff and British physicist Sir Roger Penrose said souls are real. Don't bother them about it.

They didn't define a soul. They should define a soul. Makes it easier to know if it was proved or not.

>>9972131

The ultimate form of taking it easy.

>>9972143
>>9972131
I like this.

>>9972018
That isn't what I meant. He shouldn't insult others for not liking what he likes.

>>9972131
So it's like what I do now except no /jp/?
This death thing sounds pretty good.

>>9972138
Well fuck that
No-one uses that anymore. I'm going to pull out the 'de facto' understanding of it as permanently related to quantum physics out of my ass to save myself here.

But yes, quantised levels of energy, which started when electron energy states were investigated, notably those in electronic transitions to give certain wavelengths of light. Certain wavelengths means certain energies means quantised energy.
But quantum physics as a general concept now has gone far beyond that. The physics of the very small.

>>9972085
>>9972105
We need more philosophers to make sense of all these advancement.

>>9972165
i'l philosophize you're mom if u know what i mean

>>9972018
The application of science is subjective.

>>9972170
That is not funny.

>>9972165
One major issue that is not really explored much to my knowledge is that of necessary redundancy.
Food production, electricity production, all necessities of life have become so efficient that they can be ran by a very small number of people. Not everyone needs to work to support the society.
It's most important in the turn of the 21st century as this is when there are the most completely unneeded jobs. When economic growth dies a little, then the unneeded jobs just all die out. Mass unemployment comes from there being nothing for them to do, and it's them who suffers for it, and are then blamed for it, too.

>>9971478
>So if we really do have souls then does that mean we actually will go to Gensokyo when we die?
All I know is that you won't, OP.

>>9972178
>Not everyone needs to work to support the society.
We call that a utopia. The kind of utopia wide-eyed communists dream about, where there is a surplus of wealth.
But it's not what we have right now. What we have right now is a big recession, and the fact that America's national food storage can only last 3 months in a crisis, whereas in the past, it used to be years.

>>9971791

>>9972192

He refused the money.

>>9972188
>wealth
The jew economists have gotten into your head. Wealth isn't a useful concept.
It's about food, heat, shelter, electricity, internet.
But who produces all the things that store, cook food, produce use electricity, clothing etc. They're produced by super efficient factories in china that use a few hundred people to make clothing for a few hundred million.

This was already proved in Gantz.

>>9971743
>Misusing evolution
Evolution isn't "progressing to better stage" it's "adapting to the environment"

>>9972188
We live in a society with surplus wealth and forced unemployment.

>>9972201
When I used that word, I meant "everything a person might want". You are the only one projecting your Jewish definitions into the discussion.

>>9972188
The problem isn't wealth. The problem is the distribution of it in a way that satisfies everyone's basic needs yet still proivdes incentives for people to continue working.

>>9972208
Want isn't the same as need. The lust for wealth has caused our problems. All our nation's wealth is sitting at the top of the food chain, and they're not spending it. They have to spend it or our economy collapses, but they're too greedy.
And this isn't communism, they don't have to give it away. They have to spend it. At the moment it's just sitting around. They have to build factories that make stuff, even if it's unprofitable. Their funds need to go down, but they never will.
How did they get those funds? By ridiculous profit margins. Cut down the profit margins and they never got so wealthy in the first place.

You could fix the entire planet by creating a global profit margin standard. The profit margin has to be adjusted so that it does not create more than 1 million dollars of profit annually.
Small business won't make a million dollars so can put their profit margins however, but if they grow to massive, massive amounts, then they'll have to reduce the price of the stuff they sell to compensate for the increased efficiency of production.
>>9972211
You don't need incentives. Well under the system I proposed the incentive is a million dollars a year, I guess. Not a perfect idea, but it's certainly better than what exists. The problem is enforcing it. One guy can make a billion squillion dollars and spend it on an army to take over the world. Governments could become way to overbearing, like in soviet russia. Shit just goes bad, because of greed.

>>9972216
The best incentive is meaningful work under your control.

>>9972216
>You don't need incentives.
People need incentives to work, this is a basic principle of economics.

>>9972223
>this is a basic principle of economics.

…

Do you know what "incentive" means in "economics?" Do you know how much this differs from the basis of motivation for humans throughout the entireity of human history prior to 1920?

>>9972223
Fuck "work". Did Perelman "work"? Work is a wonderful instrument to create bitterness and expectations out of thin air.

>>9972223
What I meant was that you don't need to create incentives.

Too many nerds talking about weird shit in this thread.

It looks like Phillip Jose Farmer is right.

After death, we will all wake up on Riverworld when our souls are captured, and given another chance.

>>9972230
>1349655292118

>>9972234
Well, no. Understanding what Penrose is on about is the key. He's not saying that there's a soul that survives the brain. The brain is the host of the soul- what penrose means by a soul is an actual form of consciousness, since our brains are a mishmash of various computations, what is it about it, what is special about our brains over computers that gives us our own thoughts and sense of self?

>>9971722
no, just an easy way to become the little girl

>>9972239
Awww.... That sucks.

I can still hope for his Riders of the Purple Wage to come true, right?

>Sir Roger Penrose
Great, the guy who sued a toilet paper company because he didn't want people shitting on his crappy two shape titillation. `LOL, Quantum! Wakarimasen' is his answer for everything?

How is he qualified to speak about anything other than geometry?

>>9972237
Got a problem, nerd?

>>9972282
He wrote some books about maths and consciousness before and after his wife died.
Basically his entire belief in souls and shit is the result of wishing his wife was still alive.

>>9972296
>1351804087793

>>9972299
>>9972237
He's trying so hard to fit in.

>The quantum soul theory is now trending worldwide, thanks to stories published this week by The Huffington Post and the Daily Mail, which have generated thousands of readers comments and social media shares.
>The Huffington Post
>social media
>trending

Pseudoscience bullshit espoused by teenage hipsters trying to act smart.

Get the fuck back to /sci/, kid.

>>9972305
Which one of them?

>>9972306
Which one of who?
They're both the same person.
Can't you tell by the file names?

>>9972298
Sounds a bit like Ray Kurzweil, who keeps believing that the singularity is going to bring his dead father back to life.

>>9972305
Lol he really is.

>>9972311
Are you retarded? The second guy saved the image from the first guy, then reposted it.

>>9972328
No, one is named "get out (5).jpg" and the other is "get out (6).jpg". He's obviously the same person.

>>9972336
I thought you meant between the guy and the guy he was replying to.

>>9971595
>I don't even remember what it was like when I was 3 years old though

It's weird to me that people forget these things. Did nothing happen that they cared about?

Oh wow, they redefined the word 'soul'.
Fucking amazing.

>>9972282
The other guy is an anesthesiologist. Yes, a guy who's job is to punch a quantity into the computer and put the oxygen mask on your face before surgery is theorizing about the nature of the soul.

If I wanted to hear a couple of uninformed assholes talk about shit they know nothing about I'd turn on AM.

>>9971697
>I suggest you try to learn what superposition actually IS before you decry it.

He's right as far as the explanation in his post. You can never directly observe superposition of states: everything appears to have a single state when you measure it. If you try to, say, detect a photon passing through an array of sensors, the photon will appear to travel only along a single path.

Superposition of states is how we explain the interference patterns that appear when there are multiple particles.

>Soul located in microtubules of neurons
I will enjoy them getting torn apart by the scientific commmunity
Fucking stupidest thing I've heard since creationists thought people could turn into trees

>>9972382
But people can turn into trees. Your body will be decomposed, turn into dirt, and from that dirt will grow a tree.

>>9972390
Well, I laughed

>>9972394
We can burn your corpse and bury the ashes. Nature will do something with you sometime soon after that.

Mother Nature is a bitch.

>>9972223

>People need incentives to work

People need incentives to work because work has become so meaningless. No one needed incentives before the luxuries of the modern world because the work that they did was meaningful to them and their survival depended on it.

If you work the fields to grow your food then you continue working because you know that if you stop then you're going to die. The farmer is still happy though because he directly benefits from the fruits of his labor and he will eat the food that he harvests.

The world is different now and people only indirectly benefit from the work that they do. The work itself has no meaning, to the worker it's just an arbitrary task in some company that he doesn't give a shit about in order to get currency. This worker will not be happy like the farmer because his work feels pointless and so he just soullessly stares at the clock and waits for the paycheck.

We need to go back to how it used to be. We have so much technology and so many comforts but all of these supposedly wonderful things actually just make us more depressed than if we just lived like simple farmers and hunters.

not sure if loony
>new findings about the role quantum physics plays in biological processes, such as the navigation of birds, adds weight to the theory.

yep, they already showed the ability exists in humans with an aborigionaly population who had no word for left and right, only east and west etc. people who learnt the language also developed the ability to always be oriented, but not so much as people who learnt it as children.
it was found this ability is contained in a very small number of nerve cells, similar to how individual words and impressions are

the final nail in the coffin is that another group found the brain communicates with itself with physical waves of motion.

so the microtubels may have a quantum state, so what? its not like it means its posible to wander around as a ghost or anything through the "ether"

>>9972429
yeah man, those farmers and hunters were real happy

>>9972223
Boredom is an incentive. Wanting to demonstrate your superiority to the people you went to school with is also an incentive.

>>9972429
But it was farmers and hunters who traded all of that the luxuries of industrialism. People have gladly given up their food-based labor for coin-based ones because money get you things besides food and shelter.

>>9972429
>The work itself has no meaning, to the worker it's just an arbitrary task in some company that he doesn't give a shit about in order to get currency.
That's not true. Just because you don't use the product you make doesn't mean you can't find fulfillment in work. There will of course be people who aren't happy with what they do, but you make it sound like no one is ever going to be happy unless they are growing their own food, which just isn't the case.

>>9972429
>No one needed incentives before the luxuries of the modern world because the work that they did was meaningful to them and their survival depended on it.
>their survival depended on it
If that's not incentive then... you don't know what your are talking about.

>If you work the fields to grow your food then you continue working because you know that if you stop then you're going to die. The farmer is still happy though because he directly benefits from the fruits of his labor and he will eat the food that he harvests.
Food is the incentive.

>This worker will not be happy like the farmer
Yeah, I'm sure that the ancient farmers were very happy with their 35 year life span, 60% infant mortality. They were just fucking brimming with joy while they toiled in the fields, digging trenches and mindlessly picking wheat. They were so happy that they invented religion to assure them that death was okay because they would be happily laboring in heaven for all of eternity.

>>9972436

Humans love to hunt, it's one of the most enjoyable activities for most animals and humans still do it today for recreation, even though we don't really need to anymore.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/200907/play-makes-us-human-v-why-hunter-gatherers-
work-is-play

I would love to live in a society where I could hunt all day. Fresh air, get to move your body around, feel the thrill of the hunt. It sure beats typing away in some depressing gray cubicle all day so you can get a paycheck and then buy a bunch of barely entertaining gadgets.

>>9972464
You wouldn't last a week. The only reason people can enjoy hunting is because if you fail, you can go to the market and just buy some food. If you survive by hunting, then if you fuck up, you die. It's about like having a bomb strapped to you and being told that if you don't succeed then you will die.

>>9972470
Your fault for being a failure. Why can you not do anything right?

>>9972470
We should do this with jobs. The reason why we keep stagnating is because we don't look to Darwin's methods. If work became more about survival, than humans would evolve better to work.

>>9972474
I don't like you. You are stupid. You long for a past that never existed. Go to a National Park and see how long you last hunting.

>>9972481
You mistake me for another. I guess you cannot even maintain the flow of conversation. You are such a disappointment.

>>9972470

>The only reason people can enjoy hunting is because if you fail, you can go to the market and just buy some food.

That has nothing to do with the pleasure that comes from hunting though. It's far more primal than that. Look at wolves or basically any predator, they absolutely love hunting, it brings them so much joy. You can even place them in a setting (zoos) where they have unlimited food and guaranteed shelter but they will just become depressed and lethargic.

Humans are like that too. The love of the hunt is ingrained in us.

>>9972485
Well you are also stupid and I don't like you either.

>>9972479

>>9972488
Humans are not wolves. Wolves are driven by instinct to hunt, as are humans, but that does not mean pleasure.

>>9972488
My dog seems pretty fucking happy when I toss him a scrap of meat. We're not wild animals, and making random connections like this only makes your argument weaker.

Fuck luddites, seriously. Hobbes put it best: life before technology was "poor, nasty, brutish and short".

Ancient society was not Pocahontas, or Dances with Wolves, or Avatar. It was Eat Shit and Die: the VN. We did not commune with nature or sit under the stars musing about our simple, fulfilling lives. We worked, and then we died. Usually at the ripe old age of forty or so, to an excruciatingly painful disease for which there was no cure.

Y-you got me mad, /jp/. I'm scared now.

>>9971564
They're what make you, you.
Otherwise, you're just a robot.
Also, do other animals have souls?

>>9972502
>We worked, and then we died
Nothing has changed.

>>9972510
>nothing has changed
I get that you're trying to sound cool, but realistically speaking, having multiple days off per week, PTO, and having the concept of retiring before death is a direct refutation of that.

>>9972515
>I get that you're trying to sound cool
I understand you're trying to sound like a cunt.

>having multiple days off per week, PTO, and having the concept of retiring before death is a direct refutation of that.
Pre-modern people had time off, too. Big fucking deal. I don't know whether by technology you mean at the level of industrialization, agriculture, or fire, but it's the same in all three cases.

>>9972495

>but that does not mean pleasure.

The act of hunting is inherently pleasurable because it releases endorphins, it feels rewarding, and it gets your adrenaline pumping.

Primitive hunting is intense physical exercise, there's a clearly defined goal to strive towards that feels very important, it's challenging, and it's often a social activity that you do with other members of the tribe. All of these things make for the perfect activity for humans because aside from sex it includes everything that makes humans happy.

>The Huffington Post and the Daily Mail

Even as one of the faithful, I have problem with this article. If souls exists, I do not think they are contained in physical matter. Maybe.

>>9972510
Thousands of years ago I would not have my 2hu games.

Nor would I have the time to play them.

>>9972524
>The act of hunting is inherently pleasurable because it releases endorphins, it feels rewarding, and it gets your adrenaline pumping.

So does getting stabbed.

>Primitive hunting is intense physical exercise, there's a clearly defined goal to strive towards that feels very important, it's challenging, and it's often a social activity that you do with other members of the tribe. All of these things make for the perfect activity for humans because aside from sex it includes everything that makes humans happy.
You read to much fucking Maslow.

>>9972135
/pol/shit, neet blogs, and 420chan rejects do not represent /jp/

>>9972523
There's work involved in both cases, but it's not even close to the same scale. We have far more time for leisure activities (and more time in general, with increased lifespans) than people did 100,1000,10000 years ago.

Also, I'm not >>9972502, not that it really matters.

>>9972523
You know so little about history. Especially wrong if we're talking agriculture. Around the beginning of the neolithic revolution, life was quite literally work-sleep-work-sleep-work-sleep-die.

And generally speaking, only specialists (people who weren't in the business of providing food) had time off. Specialists represented a small fraction of the population.

>>9971743
To know all means to have a complete language able to describe everything accurately. I'm a bit of a layman regarding Gödel's theorem, but I think the axiomatic program for mathematics failed miserably, thus making the ideal you proclaim our very existence revolves around nothing less than an unpracticable dream.

ＪＰ　ＲＥＬＡＴＥＤ　ＢＥＣＡＵＳＥ　ＯＰ　ＵＳＥＤ　ＴＯＵＨＯＵ　
ＰＩＣＴＵＲＥ

>>9972536
Are you suggesting that we should not try to stab people? Because that is just ridiculous.

>>9972539
>You know so little about history.
You know literally fuck-all about history, so stop being a condescending douche and pretending that you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about. Hunter-gatherers from the ancient past and surviving remnants today had plenty of leisure time.

>>9972553
Fuck you.

>>9972561
Maybe you shouldn't be a condescending asshole if you don't want people to return your attitude.

>>9972553
>NO NO NO WRONG NO
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>9972528

>Thousands of years ago I would not have my 2hu games.

You would most likely be much happier without them.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of /jp/ suffers from seasonal affective disorder and a general depression from the lack of exercise that comes from such a sedentary lifestyle. It would explain /jp/'s generally moody outlook and angry behavior.

Playing games might make you a little happy, but some sunlight, outdoor exercise, and fresh air would probably make you a lot happier. Humans are animals too and we're not supposed to live like this. We need sunlight and exercise, it makes us feel happy.

>>9972567
>NO NO NO WRONG NO
That's both sides of the argument, shitstain.

>>9972541
Fuck practicality. We have a man on 4chan who demands that we have infinite significant figures in our velocity-of-a-car problems and by damn he is going to get it.

>>9972553
No.

>>9972464
>It sure beats typing away in some depressing gray cubicle all day so you can get a paycheck and then buy a bunch of barely entertaining gadgets.

if at the end of the day you can't sit by your pc and shitpost, fap to 2d and other related hobbies, then no thanks, keep your hunting farming dark ages ideology to yourself.

or alternatively move out of the city, go live in the jungle and all your dreams will come true.

Does it really take all day to gather food and meat for a village?

>>9972573
>No.
[citation needed]

>>9972571
How about you make this happy!

*grabs dick*

Anon, the staple diet for early humans were roots, fruits and seeds. Meat was not an everyday meal. Maybe once or twice a month. And, as I'm being told, they lived long lives thanks to their robust diet and continous exercise.

People started to die at 40 when populations started to grow and sanitation was a huge problem, like the industrial age or the middle ages.

ＤＥＬＥＴＥ　ＴＨＩＳ　ＰＯＳＴ，　ＪＡＮＩＴＯＲ．　ＴＨＡＴ＇ＬＬ
　ＳＨＯＷ　ＭＥ　ＦＯＲ　ＲＵＩＮＩＮＧ　ＵＲ　ＥＰＩＣ　／ＳＣＩ
／　ＴＨＲＥＡＤ．

>>9972590
>implying the anyone even gives enough of a shit to report your post

>>9972584

>People started to die at 40 when populations started to grow and sanitation was a huge problem, like the industrial age or the middle ages.

Civilization is the cause of all problems. People think we're improving, but we've been on a steady decline ever since we became agrarian.

Sometimes simple really is best.

>>9972590
You're doing it wrong. You tell the janitor to not delete the thread so he will delete it, idiot. This board is dead anyways, what do you fuckwits talk about anymore that isn't the same thing all day?

>>9972599
Unfortunately, what really determines whether a society succeeds or fails is how well-off its people are, but how well it is able to exterminate its neighbors.

>>9972571
That does not mean it is advisable for us to destruct all of society, as well as 99.999% of our population so a hunter-gatherer society would be viable/sustainable.

>>9972524
>it includes everything that makes humans happy
It does not. That's cheap reductionism.

i can't wait for the return of feudal lords, forced labor and 90% of your harvest going to the 1% elites, while you live on scraps and leftovers and starve to death in the winter.

that's the kind of life the farmer anon wants apparently.

>>9972584
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml

Go to Africa and live with the fucking nigger bushmen if civilized life is such shit. Stop shitting up the internet with your fucking anti-technology, Luddite garbage.

>Since the 1960s, the consensus among anthropologists, historians, and sociologists has been that early hunter-gatherer societies enjoyed more leisure time than is permitted by capitalist and agrarian societies. For instance, one camp of !Kung Bushmen was estimated to work two-and-a-half days per week, at around 6 hours a day. Aggregated comparisons show that on average the working day was less than five hours.
>Subsequent studies in 1970s examined the Machiguenga of the Upper Amazon and the Kayapo of Northern Brazil. These studies expanded the definition of work beyond purely hunting-gathering activities, but the overall average across the hunter-gatherer societies he studied was still below 4.86, while the maximum was below 8 hours.

>two-and-a-half days per week, at around 6 hours a day.

That sounds extremely reasonable. I would be glad to work those hours.

People really did have it a lot better back then.

>>9972573
I'll be cheering for you pal. Let's be frank, who wouldn't like to have god-like powers?

Mentality is barely affected by situation.

You are in control of your mind, whether you realise it or not.

We do not need to get rid of everything.

You need to learn how to be happy.

>>9972630
And do what in your off time? Read? No, you don't have writing. Philosophize? No, you are just a dumb asshole and the best you will do is create a half-assed religion where the sun and the moon are tag-team fighting the sky god and win most of the time. You'll be spending most of your time waving the flies off your face away. What a dumb, vapid existence.

And you'll still die at thirty because you'll get bitten by a small animal and it will get infected in your disgusting watering hole, because penicillin is still 4000+ years away.

>>9972655
Ignorance is bliss.

>>9972655
Sing, dance, and fuck. What else do you expect savages to get up to?

>>9972690
Krumpin', mostly.

>>9972630
Who wouldn't?
The question is not that some societies have some advantages over ours (as alwayst, I'll take the chance to blame overpopulation and massification for all our problems). Rejection of our society as a whole would also destroy all the things the average /jp/er loves, making us miserable.

No touhous/4chan/computers/electricity/toilets/aspirin in the jungle.

>>9972690
You are likely to get wiped by a more techologically advanced civilization. Even if they are an unhappy bunch. Evolution is a bitch, uh?

>>9972655
Wine, women and song.

>>9972690
What about those who only enjoy minimal social interaction? I can imagine most of /jp/ would describe themselves as such.

>>9972731
Bullied and ostracized to death

>>9972731
They would die. There is no place for NEETs in nature. All parasites are treated harshly.

>>9972718
so, everything an introvert hates. /jp/ would love it.

>>9972731
These people don't exist in a world without media.

>>9972716
Yeah, but what if that's several generations from now? What if your life is during that time in history when nothing happens?

>>9972731

There's a hypothesis that certain mental illnesses were nurtured in primative society. Schizotypes being shaman is the prime example.