/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Quickly please, I have a huge anime and VN backlog and can't afford the rent.

ARTIFICIAL REALITY AND TRANSHUMANISM 4 LYF

I don't work and buy all the figs I want already.

I dun' need your help.

>I dream of a day when humanity will not have to work,
How are you going to convince society that this would be a good thing? We already have much more work than what would be required to maintain our quality of life,
>with not worries.
So, you're talking about drugs?
>Food will be as bountiful as air.
We already have more food than we need, as evidenced by the fact that much of the food is destroyed to keep the prices stable.
>I will make this happen,
Are you Karl Marx?

Wasn't there a study that revealed that working (and achieving things) makes humans happier? Are you trying to through humanity into a depressive disorder?

>>9403409
>Are you trying to through humanity into a depressive disorder?

>/jp/masterplan.jpg

Is that Vita's doll?

>>9403356
That actually happened yesterday, when you think about it.

Also considering the time the students already have offed themselves.

>>9403668
Right, it's already too late for the /jp/ rooftop meet-up I was hoping for.

Can I help OP? I also love the idiots on this board?

We can also help poor children in other children take it easy in shitty countries!!!

>>9403684
Sorry, I'm kinda drunk forgive my shitty grammar.

>>9403676
It's never too late to return to the Sky, Anon. We'll be waiting for you.

Assuming that one day technology is advanced enough so no one will have to work, there will still be jobs because most humans feel empty or can't live without having a job.

>>9403409

You shouldn't go believing shady studies that are based on absolutely nothing.

>Are you trying to through humanity into a depressive disorder?

That would even things between /jp/ and humanity.

Boredom is the #1 cause of criminal activity.

>>9403409
>How are you going to convince society that this would be a good thing? We already have much more work than what would be required to maintain our quality of life,

Over the course of history this has decreased dramatically. We'll eventually have to restructure society to both lower birth rates and make careers less of a requirement. I do agree that we have plenty of time before we have to start making this transition, perhaps decades or even centuries.

>>9403409
>Wasn't there a study that revealed that working (and achieving things) makes humans happier?
That sounds like obviously made up shit so we work harder.

>>9403409
You can achieve personal goals without becoming a wage slave. Do you really think most people work in order to fulfill themselves? No, they work out of necessity due to living in a corporatist regime.

I think pure communism would work in a limited, self-maintained group.

>>9405359
*sigh*

Anon, don't be so hateful. People like us choose to stay inside and do what makes us happy, and we are hurt when people judge us and say negative things. But then we do the same thing to people who enjoy working! It's silly. If people like to work and have normal lives then I say, why not? As long as they are doing what makes them happy, that's all that matters.

>>9405359
Besides money and power and all that jack actually building something physical is pretty satisfying.
I'm talking about stupid worthless things like custom computer builds, artwork, programming algorithms, fixing old things, etc.

Getting to work may not be the best thing ever but getting stuff done feels great.

>>9405366
Yeah, it worked really well in Russia(30 million killed) and China(50 million killed), I'd say we should give it another shot. What's the worst that could happen?

I like working because I can live on my own in an apartment, and walk around naked drinking beer at 7am without my mom yelling at me.

>>9405416

>*sigh*

Get out.

>>9405435
Also Greece.

>>9405439
sorry my good sir, I'll be good now :3

>>9405416
>As long as they are doing what makes them happy
That's the whole problem. Are they actually happy? I have no problems with them or against what they're doing, but the fact that they judge us and say negative things might be evidence to the fact that they don't enjoy what they're doing.

>>9405435
You don't know what communism is and you've clearly bought into corporatist propaganda that tells you people are unable and unwilling to help each other and greed is something to be proud of. A pure communist society has no state, the examples you cited are in direct contradiction with the communist ideal.

>>9405435
what a terrifying image
terrifying because it's all already happened and most Americans don't realize it yet.
we are now reaping the consequences.

>>9405486
>A pure communist society has no state, the examples you cited are in direct contradiction with the communist ideal.

Ah, the age old, "well the ecommunist revolution wasn't REAL communism" argument. No TRUE communist regime would act that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

>You don't know what communism is and you've clearly bought into corporatist propaganda that tells you people are unable and unwilling to help each other and greed is something to be proud of

More like I'm not a teenager and have learned that the world doesn't run on rainbows and sunshine, and nobody gets to ride unicorns to work. I'm guessing by greed, you mean working in your own self-interest. How do corporations make money? They provide a service that somebody else needs. You can be as greedy as you want, but the only way to become rich is to please people better than the competition.

Here, educate yourself, redditor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

>>9405537
Yeah. It isn't actually communism as defined by the political philosophy. Communism in the end is an anarchist system in which the people maintain themselves.

The problem with modern corporatism is that people benefit at the cost of other people. If there is a winner, there is necessarily a loser. To add to this, government involvement in the free market is destroying all of the benefits of said market. Under our current system, we see reckless spending and borrowing, enormous debt collection, sweethearting, etc at the cost of the populace. I don't believe the world is run on rainbows and sunshine. But I do believe that in a small, limited population, people will be able to maintain themselves for the collective, and thus personal, benefit.

If we are to have a free market capitalism, then it needs to actually be free. My original point only referred to a small population, like /jp/, otherwise, I would actually prefer free market capitalism because of the benefits of competition.

>redditor
I frequent Reddit by virtue of the fact that I disagree with you?

>>9403409
>Wasn't there a study that revealed that working (and achieving things) makes humans happier?

What kind of idiotic bullshit is this? "Studies" might say whatever they want, but having to work really makes me (and a lot of poeple I know) unhappy. It's like saying "I'm going to die, so... yeah, mortality is a good thing and living forever would be horrible... um yes, yes!"

Surely you are a troll (no one can be so retarded, right?), but is this kind of dishonest crap which has to be assured by "science" because common sense alone would condemn it as utterly stupid.
Oh, and by "work" I mean the kind of activity you wouldn't do by yourself regardless of being paid or not.

>>9405616
>It's like saying "I'm going to die, so... yeah, mortality is a good thing and living forever would be horrible... um yes, yes!"
Does the transience of life not make it more meaningful? Something can only possess value if it's in limited supply.

>>9405603
>If there is a winner, there is necessarily a loser.

Nope nope nope! Remember anon, wealth is not a zero sum game, it is constantly being created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU

I agree with everything else you said though, government gunking up the free market really sucks.

>I frequent Reddit by virtue of the fact that I disagree with you?

No, I'm sorry for calling you names.

>>9405636
It was just an example to get my point across, so i didn't really meant nothing with it. But now that you mention it, why the value of something needs to be linked with limited suppy? Sure, economic value is, but that's not the only kind of value there is. Humans are not unidimensional beings (well, thy can be, but they don't *have* to be). For example friendship isn't limited a priori, but many of us consider it valuable on it's own.

>>9405616
I think the problem is with specialization, my first three months of work were actually enjoyable until the pressure and boredom started piling up.

And every once in a while people do feel a bit rewarded with their work. My father helped build part of my house to save money when he was young, I always thought that was kind of cool.

I don't know man, ever saw the anime Aria? The girls in Venice earn a living paddling their gondolas, I always thought it was kind of a nice work and how focused they are on their shit like they are finding a cure to cancer or something. This has nothing to do with anything by the way.

>>9405676

The Undine's work is more like a hobby than an actual job. All of them greatly enjoy it and the atmosphere is really laid back.

The same can be said about some other jobs, but mainstream and common jobs are are anything but rewarding.

>>9405676
That's why I added that "regardless of pay" clausule. I consider it "pleasure" if, let's say, you win the lottery and even so you like that activity and do it by yourself.

All that said, I know that work can be rewarding and that one might take a liking for an activity that they dind't find appealing before, but that isn't much different that picking up a hobby because you tried it and discovered that it was fun.

>I think the problem is with specialization
Yeah, also that. Any activity can become awfully dull if you repeat it enough times.

>>9405667
>wealth is not a zero sum game
I agree. That's why I try to distinguish our modern "capitalist" system from a true free market system using the term "corporatism". Due to things like minimum wage and needless government interference, people unfortunately do gain at the expense of others and the corporations over all of them.

>>9405673
>For example friendship isn't limited a priori, but many of us consider it valuable on it's own.
Perhaps we consider it valuable due to it's existence within a the limited context of Time. If we had unlimited time, would friendship still be valuable? I'm of the view that something is valuable or precious to us because we can lose it. It might be the rationalization of my own mortality, but it's still food for thought.

>>9405667
>Remember anon, wealth is not a zero sum game,
Quite right.
it is constantly being created.
Huh? To the contrary, the existence of money creates debt. Money as it exists is a system that creates losers.

You all should read about The Venus Project, the utopian dream.
Just if people realized...

Have you guys read A Confederacy of Dunces?

Was like looking in a mirror.

>>9405764
Well, let's say I find a rock in the backyard, and decide to sculpt it into a totally cool statue. I just created wealth! This rock was worth nothing before, but now I can sell my creation to a rock-sculpture enthusiast(if I can find one..).

>>9405746
Well, you have a solid point on that one. I considered that notion a valid one for a long time, but... oh man, I'm not used to technical discussions in english. So excuse if I mess up a little.

Consider the subject from a "human necessities" perspective. If you are not confortable with a human nature acting as a support for those necessities, think of them as culturaly sedimented. I consider that we percive things as "valuable" when the sate one of those needs. As those are needs regardless of the limited supply of the thing in question, an individual might consider them valuable or not regarless of their abundance.

Of course, abundance of something might generate a need, but don't mistake the cause for the effect.

Uff, I'm not sure if I got my point across...

>>9405667
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU
>We need to understand how it is that the free market works to enable millions of people to cooperate peacefully together
So shortly into the video and already I am wondering if it's a troll...

>>9405847
If you watch more, I think you will understand. He is saying that in order to make a pencil, it requires materials from alllll over the world. The person harvesting the graphite might hate America, but that same graphite is used to create pencils for Americans. The person chopping down trees might hate the person collecting the rubber, but they are indirectly cooperating in order to make this wonderful thing called a pencil.

>>9405830
The point I am making is a different one.
To keep it simple:
The bank (that's where the money comes from) gives out a certain amount of money.
After a while, they demand interest.
What can you pay the interest with? The sum of money + interest is obviously larger than the money alone.
Some people/companies/countries are able to pay said interest, but that only means that others have even less money. With the introduction of more money (and more and more interest) we create a system where sooner or later a huge amount of debt piles up and suffocates a large part of society.
Sound familiar?

It doesn't matter if YOU can save yourself from starvation - that just means that somebody else will starve in your stead.

>>9405893
The point is that he is calling the whole thing "peaceful", when really the process is everything but.
Just a single example:
Oil is one of the most important resources. Would you describe the countries oil is being harvested in as peaceful?

>>9405923
The middle east is not known for it's free market policies, anon..

>>9405832
I think I get what you're saying; that something can be valuable almost in and of itself given that it fulfills a need regardless of quantity.

For example, say I can't die and there's unlimited food, I might still eat because I glean something valuable in the experience rather than the physical outcome. Did I get that right?

I think that without an end to my existence, I would forever seek new and novel things for myself, but I think that in the end even "the new" would get dull. If something is permanent, how can it leave an impression? I think it's the impression that is beautiful or meaningful, but that's because I am a transient being and I know of nothing else.

Mine is a binary form of understanding it. I feel that time (and by extension life) is valuable because it can be wasted, if it can't be wasted, then is it valuable? Think of it like this, something can only be "good" if something "bad" has been experienced. If you eliminate "bad", can anything actually be "good"? I believe there's nothing "in and of itself". The human value system in regards to a particular object/concept is fundamentally tied to every other one. With this in mind, we can understand that everything in our lives is tied to Time.

>>9405895

Yeah, that's exactly the world nowadays. The markets keep growing and, when the system bursts, you just devalue everything to be able to start again. The idea is to keep the bursts to a minimum and extend the good periods as much as possible. The system is inherently flawed, but it's highly successful because it's really easy to market as the best thing ever during the good periods.

>>9405949
Good point. Then what is your "free market" standing upon, if one of its most important resources comes from there?

>>9405961
I think it's because the Americans were able to sell capitalism as a sort of religion during the cold war, as the only thing standing between you and the inherently evil socialism.

>>9405895
The current system as advocated is hardly free market capitalism. Government interference has allowed the banks to behave recklessly, jeopardizing the economy.

In a free market system, people create what needs to be created. It balances itself out due to the fact that it's driven by the people; it reflects what the people want. What we have is a military/industrial/corporate monster corrupting the ideals of capitalism to their own ends.

>>9405962
The point he is making is that countries with free markets trade together and cooperate in their own self-interest, even if they may not like each other personally. If anything the fact that we have so much trouble with oil from the middle east is actually an argument FOR the free market, not against.

If middle eastern countries were to adopt a free market system, the people harvesting oil may not like Americans personally, but they are working for an oil company that in turn allow us to drive our cars. It would also bring down the price, to the dismay of local oil companies.

I think that's one thing that lots of people don't understand. They see big corporations growing too big, and the first thing they think is "the government needs to do something about this!", but in reality large corporations love big government. They lobby for benefits and tax loopholes at the expense of small businesses who don't benefit.

Auugh, my head is starting to hurt from all this arguing.

>>9406018
>The point he is making is that countries with free markets trade together and cooperate in their own self-interest, even if they may not like each other personally. If anything the fact that we have so much trouble with oil from the middle east is actually an argument FOR the free market, not against.
The point I am making is simple enough. We are standing on top of the third world. Our wealth is based on their lack of wealth.
If the people in Africa and India did not work for so little*, then we wouldn't have so much.
Democracy has always been an article of luxury. The democracy's cradle (if you will), Greece, is a great example of this, basing its democracy on a wealth of slaves.

*Oh yes, they are actually gaining something from the exchange, and nobody is putting a gun against their heads either - but the pay is so ridiculously low that none of us would even think of it as a serious job offer, nevermind actually considering the offer. This is your free market.

>>9406115
liberaltard

>>9406127
That your whole argument, or did the rest just not fit into the reply field?

>>9406135
ur ghey

>>9406115
> the pay is so ridiculously low that none of us would even think of it as a serious job offer

Alright, then let's close all those sweatshops, make them illegal! Now these people have even less money..

We are never going to have heaven on earth, there will always be people born in poor countries. It's unfortunate, anon, but it's true.

>>9406135
How about stop feeling ashamed of being a white male you faggot.

You realize there are wealthy people in Africa and India too and they are the ones oppressing their peers not you.
I'm BR btw. Vá chupar rolas gringo.

>>9405969
You know what, you are right. The kind of existence I was depicting delves in the territory of transhumanism and wouldn't be a human one, if we define human condition as one which has the necessity of limitations, and doesn't have an absolute scale of values.

I mean, the image I had in mind wasn't the scenario in which one has to live forever without even the possibility of dead. I was thinking of an indefinitely long existence in which the indivudual has the ever present possibility to end his or her own life at will.

tl;dr: I just like to speculate, don't mind me

>>9403409
>Wasn't there a study that revealed that working (and achieving things) makes humans happier? Are you trying to through humanity into a depressive disorder?

nobody said you wouldn't be allowed to work. you just wouldn't have to work to live, but you'd still be able to work creatively, like creating fiction/games/books/etc, contributing to science and such if you wanted to and such.

you just wouldn't have to sit 10 hours a day at mcdonalds, handing out burgers to ungrateful niggers, wishing you could stab them in the eyes with a fork.

>>9406156
You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying to close them, I'm just saying you're stupid if you believe that propaganda about honest and peaceful trade holding the world together.
>>9406167
>You realize there are wealthy people in Africa
Sure there are. Just as there are poor people in the "First world".
>they are the ones oppressing their peers not you.
Even if you removed them, others would soon take their place. Just like how a US company going bankrupt just makes place for another one. The system requires both.

>>9406174
The hamburgers would just serve themselves I guess.

>>9406219
In that case, would YOU serve them?

>>9406212
The problem is that you believe socialism would magically get rid of all corruption.
You know even ants take advantage of each other and are ranked in power.

>>9406237
Suck my cock, jesus christ you are irritating.
I'm out of here.
Stay ashamed of your cisprivilege HUEHUE

>>9406231
>The problem is that you believe socialism would magically get rid of all corruption.
Could you quote me on that?

>>9406228
It's fine as a highschool job or while you can't find anything better.
For the rest of my life? Fuck no.

>>9406168
>I was thinking of an indefinitely long existence in which the indivudual has the ever present possibility to end his or her own life at will.
Within a scenario like that, a person could definitely live a meaningful life, but in the end it's because death itself gives meaning to our lives. I remember this theme touched upon in Casshern Sins, which is why I automatically thought "unable to die" rather than immortality. That's my mistake.

>I just like to speculate, don't mind me
Same.

>>9406219
...We could make loli robots to do it for us. We could build loli robots to do everything for us. M-maybe even l-lewd things!

>>9406243
I am irritating because I say that the current system is flawed without having a better solution at the ready?

>>9406212
There is no reason to be hostile, anon. The fact is that without America trading with India, all those people would be even poorer than they are today. People take jobs at the sweatshop because it will be beneficial to them when compared to their current state, therefore they are benefiting. So a worker in India cuts down trees, and those trees are used to make wood for pencils. Meanwhile someone in Africa is harvesting graphite, to put in the middle of pencils. These people are both working these jobs because it is in their best economic interest, and unknowingly cooperating with people they very likely may hate!

As a result of this, everybody is benefiting. This is the magic of the free market system.

>>9406240
Dude, then you are recongnizing that it is a shitty job that makes people unhappy, regardless, scientific studies or not.

>>9406265
>The fact is that without America trading with India, all those people would be even poorer than they are today.
Keep telling yourself that.
>These people are both working these jobs because it is in their best economic interest,
Short term vs long term.
They need to take the jobs because otherwise they'd starve to death in a desolate place - yet at the same time the reason for the desolation is often that very same job.

>>9406262
Of course it's flawed, the world is flawed! If you would of said this sooner I wouldn't have bothered typing up my response.

Ugh.

>>9406286
What exactly are you complaining about?
You are having issues with every single complaint about the system except the term "flawed"?
Why?

>>9406268
Of course the clerks flipping burgers are pathetic and unhappy, I was thinking more along the lines of a manager or something that would actually make you feel rewarded.

Basically hard jobs are more fulfilling than entry level mcjobs. But anyway nothing is very fulfilling to me for long so I understand where you come from.
Let go of the scientific study thing, some people have different personalities than you.

>>9406305
What?

>>9406314
This is what I want to know.

>>9406284
>Keep telling yourself that.

What? They are working the job because the alternative is no job at all, or a job that pays even less.

>They need to take the jobs because otherwise they'd starve to death in a desolate place

Yes, because they would be so much better off if there were even less sources of income, right? I'm not saying they have it good! They had the misfortune of being born in a poor desolate country, and because of that their living conditions will be pretty harsh. But if you compare the living conditions of the average man in societies with a free market system, and those without a free market system, you will see a stark contrast.

>>9406306
>Of course the clerks flipping burgers are pathetic and unhappy
Maybe they are only like that because our society tells them that it's a demeaning job. Without them, how will people get their burgers? I would be fine flipping burgers if it would support my life and my hobbies. Unfortunately, the current system makes it so that a person needs to waste their life away at it in order to make a decent living.

If I was assured a decent living, I would flip burgers for free if people wanted it. I just want to take it easy.

>>9406306
That's a valid argument I have nothing to object against. It just rubbed me the wrong way your appeal to studies as justification.
The thing is, just because some people like that it's unfair to assume that everybody does.

>>9406325
Huh?
Anyway the problem with you only want to do creative fun work, you're forgetting someone has to do the dirty work sometime.

No, loli bots don't count. Anyway stop with the witty answer questions with more questions, its really annoying and you sound deluded like a little kid. Hell even China has moved out of their socialist mindset.

>>9406335
>But if you compare the living conditions of the average man in societies with a free market system, and those without a free market system, you will see a stark contrast.
Interesting how you completely failed to see my point.
This is what I've been saying, except that I blamed the wealth of the one system for the poverty of the other.

>>9406341
>even China has moved out of their socialist mindset.
I am not a socialist. Why do you keep insisting I should be?
What the hell are you even talking about?

>>9406351
So you just don't want to work?
Unless you get on autism welfare that's impossible sadly.

>>9406347
>This is what I've been saying, except that I blamed the wealth of the one system for the poverty of the other

Alright, so you believe that the average person in 3rd world countries would be better off if nobody traded with them? If all those sweatshops closed down, and all those people lost their jobs? That would be better?

>>9406347
>I blamed the wealth of the one system for the poverty of the other.
Not necessarily true, though. Most of those countries were poor to begin with. The system is actually helping create wealth for them. It's like how Wal-mart generates income in impoverished neighborhoods by providing jobs. You could say that local businesses die as a result, but that would be because of a failure to adapt to their environment, not because of a failure of the system.

>>9406367
Seriously, I have no idea what you are going on about. Could you possibly be mixing up the two different strings of discussion?

>>9406375
No, I believe that if they were treated fairly, then we would be off worse, and they'd be off better.
But capitalism is not about fairness. Before thinking about treating them fairly (if that was one's goal) one would have to solve the same problem on a national level.

>>9406391
Please share with me all the ways you would make capitalism more "fair", I'd like to hear them.

>>9406406
I wouldn't be who I am if I actually had solutions for stuff. I'm only trained in seeing the downside to things (helps me staying detached).

>>9406406
Not him, but capitalism is as "fair" as you will get in a free market. People have the freedom to choose what to make a purchase.

If we wanted to level the playing field, we could instigate small interdependent communist societies to ensure that everyone is on an even playing field and then introduce a free market afterward. This might increase production and mutual benefit in the long run. Of course, the move to a communist system means people will lose some of what they have, so I see it as an impossibility.

>>9406428