/jp/ - Otaku Culture

EDIT: Cool, this got deleted before I finished typing my post! Thanks Meido!

>>9134610
I don't care for 3D CP but this goes beyond our own sexual preferences. I hate to think that I'm sharing this board with people who believe that fantasizing about 3D little girls is actually something that should be punishable by law. It's belief in the existence of thoughtcrime, and to me that is the most foul thing that you can believe in because it means you are completed denying another human being of their own mind, the only thing that's truly theirs. I'd rather share /jp/ with all the sluts and normalfags in the world than with people who think that fantasies can be crimes.

But I agree, this thread is making me depressed. I can't take it easy like this. This thread should be deleted.

>>9134624,1
>I hate to think that I'm sharing this board with people who believe that fantasizing about 3D little girls is actually something that should be punishable by law
Nobody on /jp/ thinks that, a good portion of everyone else do.

>I hate to think that I'm sharing this board with people who believe that fantasizing about 3D little girls is actually something that should be punishable by law
Nobody said that, you just suck at reading comprehension and it's too easy to own you.

>>9134624,3
>Jun 08 03:49:49
>Try harder

You came all the way over here just to pick on me? I mean yeah, I realize I was trolled, but please now. Don't be a bully.

>>9134624,1
I don't think having fantasies is wrong (our minds all wander to strange things sometimes) but having child pornography is wrong. I know people like to argue about freedom of speech and how it's not harming anyone, but what are you going to have CP for? To fap to children. It's why possessing drugs is illegal--you're going to either use those drugs or pass them on.

Masturbating to XYZ isn't illegal, because that's kind of hard to prove in court. Possessing (or receiving, in US law) lolicon/PTHC/whatever is provable, though.

>>9134624,5
But you still didn't give a good reason as to why CP possession should be illegal.

You said:

>I don't think having fantasies is wrong

But then you contradict yourself:

>what are you going to have CP for? To fap to children.

Since you didn't give any other reason as to why you think CP possession should be illegal, I'm going to assume you are saying that CP possession should be illegal because people who possess CP will inevitably fap to it. In other words, you believe that fapping to CP should be illegal.

Wait, what? How is fapping to something any different than "having fantasies"? Would it be okay if I fapped to my fantasies, but didn't look at actual images? What if I looked at the images, remembered them, and then fapped later? Would that be okay?

In the end, you are simply saying that you believe people who have fantasies about sex with children should be jailed for their thoughts, even if they don't act on them. You are supporting the idea of thoughtcrime, even though you probably don't realize it.

Just to save myself a bunch of replies, I'm going to go ahead and debunk some other (better) arguments as well. I'm quoting people who I've heard make these arguments in similar threads before, so don't ask me who I'm quoting please.

>No Anon, you are dumb. Making CP possession legal would increase the number of pedos, because there would no longer be any fear of legal repercussions when looking at CP. This would lead a large number of "fetish curious" individuals to look at CP, a percentage of which would realize that they like CP, and become pedos. A percentage of these new pedos would, in turn, inevitably go on to harm children. The number of new child abusers resulting from allowing people legal access to CP would outnumber the number of for-profit CP makers who would be stopped by legalizing free CP, so in the end, legalizing CP possession is still bad.

This argument doesn't work for me either. Again, the reason is that the same logic (the idea that looking at material depicting certain acts encourages people to carry out said acts) is not applied to other subjects. Or at least, in this case, said logic is only applied by crazy folk who all of us 4channers can agree to disagree with. For example, in response to the above argument, I would say:

- What about rape fantasies? Are you against those too? Are you one of those moralfags who wanted to ban RapeLay and caused that whole scandal with Minori? Huh? Huh?

- What about guro? Wouldn't looking at guro encourage violent acts? What about that Hosshi guy from Futaba who kidnapped some girl and cut her up, he used to draw doujin of 2k-tan getting her arms and legs amputated. Should we ban guro doujin too? No more aosora puking Madotsuki, that guro shit encourages sick fuckery, right?

- What about violent video games? Those encourage violence and crime too, right? The Columbine shooters loved DOOM. Are you like Jack Thompson or something? Do you want to ban GTA?

etc, etc.

There's an argument out there that the kinds of content I mentioned do encourage deviant behavior, and it's a legitimate one. Hell, I know I've been influenced by a lot of the content I've taken in over time. But still, I don't believe in regulating content, because I believe that the freedom of information should take priority over protecting ourselves from the small number of people who will be influenced so much by said content that they end up harming the rest of us. The safest society would be one in which all information is regulated 1984 style, but that wouldn't be a very fun society to live in now would it.

>Sorry Anon, but that is a classic slippery slope argument you're making there. Comparing people who want to keep CP possession illegal to 1984 and implying that they also want to ban fictional works depicting sex and violence is a big leap. Fiction, including 2D loli, is fine. However, CP possession should be illegal because, unlike fiction, somebody is actually being harmed in the making of CP. People who look at non-fictional content in which someone is actually being harmed and derive pleasure from it are fucked up, and we need to avoid increasing their numbers. Therefore, CP possession should be illegal.

In response to this one, I would ask whether this person believes if actual videos depicting rape, or alternatively snuff videos, should be illegal to possess. If the person says no, I would say then why should CP be illegal? If the person says yes:

- What about videos that aren't necessarily snuff, but do depict death? For example, the video from Wikileaks of those soldiers killing that reporter. Surely many people derived a guilty pleasure from watching such lurid violence.

- What about regular porn? Why is age 18 the magic line beyond which it's okay to appear in porn? There are undoubtedly children who appeared in CP and were never troubled by it, or who found ways to cope with their experiences later in life. There are also undoubtedly women of legal age who have been coerced into acting in porn, and have been scarred for life from the experience. Should all porn be illegal because it may have harmed real women?

- What about people who are outed on the internet and turned into memes? The Star Wars kid claimed to be messed up for life thanks to people deriving pleasure from videos of him doing something embarrassing, and unlike the porn actresses mentioned above, he didn't even agree to have his video publicized. Should possession of the Star Wars kid video be illegal, because it is harming a real person?

- What about all those Youtube videos middle schoolers post of bullying and school fights? Many of these become memes, like that one of the fat kid beating up the bully in Australia or wherever it was. The kids are underage too, just like CP actresses. Should these be illegal to possess because the kids are underage and didn't "understand what they were doing" when they uploaded the videos?

Again, for some reason, the logic only applies to CP, and not to other phenomena with similar properties. For some reason, a lot of people have just got it out for CP. Why could that be?

The answer 99% of the time is: Because pedos are currently one of the few groups that are still socially acceptable to hate. We can't hate niggers, we can't hate Jews, we can't hate fags. But we can hate pedos.

Most of the time, people who are against things like CP possession are against it on a very gut level; initially, there is no logic behind their belief. They only know that CP is horrid, that people who look at CP are revolting, and that when it comes to Something as Awful as CP, there must be a good reason for it to be illegal. After all, the vast majority of society believes CP possession should be illegal, and the vast majority can't be wrong!

>Sorry Anon, but I still don't buy your argument. Children are innocent, and represent the future of our species. Therefore, we must take extra precaution to protect them. Children caught in embarrassing Youtube videos and such are one thing, but within our current society, the act of having appeared in a porno has such a strong stigma attached to it that we need to make special rules for cases in which children appear in porn. Children cannot fully comprehend the consequences of what they are doing, and therefore a child appearing in a porno is far more likely to be ruined mentally later in life than is an adult appearing in a porno. The age 18 line is merely an approximation because a line has to be drawn somewhere. Bumping it up or down a few years would probably not make much of a difference, but that's not the point here.

>I believe that legalizing CP possession would increase, overall, the number of child abusers and CP makers (according to the argument mentioned in >>9134624,8, which even you admit was legit). I would not make the same argument against, for example, violent video games, in order to decrease general violence in our society. However, because children are the most valuable resource to our species, we should trump things like freedom of information in order to protect as many children as possible. Regardless of arguments against thoughtcrime and regulation of content, for the good of our species, I simply cannot stand for an action that could possibly cause an increase in child abuse.

If someone took the argument this far, I might have trouble coming up with a response, and I'd probably thank the person for a good argument, conclude that we are destined to disagree, and let the thread die. There are a few things I could throw out though:

- Rather than working to defeat the unjustified stigma that society attaches to sex, you'd rather create laws which limit our freedoms, in order to work around the damage caused by said stigma. Don't you think that's a little backwards?

- Adults are just as important of people as children. Without adults, society would crumble like in Lord of the Flies, so the "future of our species" argument really doesn't work here. Why is the suffering of an adult any more okay than the suffering of a child? If you believe that allowing access to material depicting pedophilia causes an increase in pedos, you must believe that allowing access to violent material causes an increase in violence. Yet you prioritize children because of some flawed belief, stemming from the idea that children are somehow sacred/more valuable than adults. The idea that children should be protected above adults is logically flawed, and eventually boils down to a classic "but think of the cute little chiiiiildren" argument.

And most of all:

- If you are so concerned about the future good of our species and the good of children, then what the HELL are you doing hanging out with us nihilist autists here on /jp/?????

That's all folks, I hope you have enjoyed my autistic argument with myself. For the record, I've never even jerked off to 3D CP, I just like arguing and hate seeing people be wrong on the internet. If anyone has any other attack vectors they'd like to try, come at me bro.

>>9134624,14
>I hope you have enjoyed my autistic argument with myself.
I read all of it.

>>9134624,14
That was an interesting read. One thing you neglected to mention is that most if not all CP is produced not for profit, but for the perversion of it. Close family members that abuse children, record it and share it online with likeminded people. And then those videos are shared around for years.

I guess it all comes down to what you said, it's about gut feeling. Paedo fear is huge, even if it goes against all evidence that it's just not a common thing and child sex abuse is committed by close family and friends. The focus should be in education. Signs to looks for if you suspect your niece is being abused for example. The whole stranger pedos in trenchcoats thing only diverts attention from the real problem.

As for why protect the children, it's because they're sentient beings with little defense mechanisms. It's considered a moral imperative to defend those that can't defend themselves.

But yeah, good read. I still think CP should be at the very least taboo, and I personally find it disgusting (not so much with loli, the fictional element makes it tolerable) but it's one of those things that has to be actually discussed instead of going with that hind brain, gut feeling that if something is disgusting then it should be illegal.

This is one of the many advantages of anonymous posting. Free exchange of ideas without fear of being shunned.

>most if not all CP is produced not for profit, but for the perversion of it.

Hmm. As a long time 4channer I've seen my fair share of CP, and most of it has indeed seemed to have been made for pleasure and not profit. However, I have seen CP made for profit as well. I don't think it's as common to come across on sites like 4chan though, because I feel like it's usually tamer, and most people who post CP and links to CP on sites like 4chan are doing so for the shock value and not because they're actually interested in CP. Also, like you said, the free shared videos of people abusing their nieces and what not are the ones that end up on normal P2P networks, and would thus be the most accessible.

Like I said I'm not really a legitimate pedo nor do I actively seek out 3D CP, so I am kind of talking out of my ass at this point. However I do remember reading a good, detailed document from someone who produced CP for profit, and it described a developed and intricate industry. I think it was mostly talking about operations based in eastern Europe and Russia. I can't remember where I found it, it was either the Hidden Wiki or Wikileaks I think... but I do believe that there are definitely for-profit CP makers our there.

>>9134624,6
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Having thoughts of doing something should never be illegal. Even if you think, "Oh I sure would like to murder that person!" it should not be a criminal act.

However, there are ethical problems with certain acts. There's a lot of debate about how the law should reinforce ethics (whose ethics? Why?), but the fact is that all laws are ultimately artificial. I'm sure everyone agrees that murder should be illegal. But why? Murder was a perfectly acceptable thing in the past. Someone stole from your tribe? Murder them! Ugg raped your wife? Nothing a good murder can't solve! Ultimately we decided murder was immoral, and we should take steps to hinder our own, instinctive bloodlust.

Now of course you're probably thinking, "But why have laws if they don't harm other people? What I do in my own time is my business, and mine alone." But sadly, there are bad people out there who would do harm to themselves and others if this was the case. Taking hard drugs isn't necessarily bad. I could take hard drugs and remain a perfectly healthy individual. I'm certainly harming nobody else. But it's illegal. We don't want people to become heroin addicts. We don't want heroin to be freely available. We don't want to run the risk of heroin destroying lives. This is why possession is illegal: because people use it. I doubt anyone happens to be a "heroin collector" who hoards it as a hobby.

This is the problem with child pornography. As it stands--for better or for worse--pedophilia is a DSM-recognized mental disorder and considered harmful by many. If someone was a bit too interested in murdering someone or had intense fantasies about it, I certainly wouldn't let them near my knife collection. Pedophilia is simply incompatible with the Western world. It goes against our norms, and this is why it's a disorder. Perhaps in 2050 "pedosexuality" will be all well and accepted. But according to our current research, it's abhorrent and abnormal (even if it isn't unnatural). Even if you are not a child molester (or even close to a potential child molester) you are harming yourself, and this is why CP is shunned and illegal just as drug use is.

>>9134624,18
>mental disorder
>DSM

Bullshit. They are brainwashed too.

All the "studies" have been done with sex offenders (of course, real pedos are too scared to reveal themselves), people who have molested kids because they are evil or mentally ill. It has NOTHING to do with pedophilia, these studies are bullshit.

Stop believing their crap. This is not a mental disorder. Also, all the things written in Wikipedia about pedophilia, ALL OF THEM, are fucking lies based on this retarded study about criminals.

>>9134624,19
Pedophilia itself is listed as a mental disorder in the DSM. This is because being sexually attracted to children is a mental state deemed unsound by social norms. Homosexuality went from a disorder to an acceptable sexual orientation because social norms changed.

If you take fault with the idea of non-abusive pedophilia being a mental disorder, blame society, not a book.

The biggest issue I have with this is that they also declassified it from a paraphilia.

Paraphilias are preferred sexual acts that are outside straight up "normal" sex. Meaning most sex acts outside of consensual sex in the missionary position are paraphilic.

But then homosexuals became "victims" and it was uncouth to say that

>>9134624,21
Homosexuals are huge cunts.

If you were the bulled kid once, you have to help the new bulled kid, not just watch or even encourage it. What a bunch of faggots, most of them.

>>9134624,22
LGBT

>>9134624,22
>bulled
>bulled
How the hell did I make the same mistake twice? It's not like I don't know how to write it correctly...

>>9134624,22
> Homosexuals are huge cunts.

Take that back, faggot, my boyfriend is a homosexual.