/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>Geisha are not prostitutes; they are entertainers and masters of traditional dance, song, poetry, art, and witty conversation.

people didn't already know this?

>>8753232
But some of them were prostitutes. Right?

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen geisha?

>>8753234
Most.

How else do you think women earned money?

I heard they can fly, is this true?

Look at those feet. Do they have Segways hidden in their clothes?

>>8753239
Perhaps...
>dance, song, poetry, art, and witty conversation

Has a geisha ever flown off japan? to china or something?

>>8753233
Unfortunately, no. It's a great misconception, even in Japan. Back during WWII, Japanese prostitutes would paint their faces like geisha and just call themselves such because American soldiers wouldn't know the difference.

>>8753234
No. Geisha were never prostitutes. You're thinking of Tayuu/oiran, an aristocratic, "high class" prostitute that were around before geisha.

Apprentices did have a coming of age ceremony called 'mizuage' where their okaa-san (the matriarch of the okiya, the lodging house for geisha) was responsible for seeing that a high bidder would take her virginity at a very high price. The maiko would never see the man again afterward. The money used was a kick start for her career as a geisha. It was not seen as a form of prostitution, but rather as a sort of sweet sixteen party (it typically happened at age 20, but less responsible okiya owners would make it as young as thirteen, sadly). It was outlawed in 1959 so it is no longer practiced.

Geisha do take on danna, a man (or woman) who will support her financially in her career if she accepts the proposal, but this is strictly business and there are no strings attached or requirements to fulfill. She may decline if she so wishes.

Conning is an art and head mistresses smart enough to get stupid geisha to fuck paying customers were the greatest artist of all

some Geisha were prostitutes rather willing or by some contract ( indentured servitude etc. )

They also don't exist anymore so and it was banned in Japan so I don't give a fuck about your encyclopedia

>>8753234
nope, its forbidden for them to sell their body
but you can buy her virginity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizuage

There will never be female masters of traditional dance, song, poetry, art, and witty conversation in the west. Especially the last part seems to be impossible for women here.

>>8753239
The price of the geisha is extremely high and one can only see them by invitation. They're highly disciplined and gifted women. Calling them prostitutes is an insult to her trade.

I should also point out that Memoirs of a Geisha is an extremely inaccurate portrayal of the geisha world.

>>8753244
Haha, they do not. The maiko (the three girls on the right) wear okobo, a type of shoe made from light wood so it's easy to walk in. They have little bells in a carved slot underneat the sole of the shoe. It's a symbol of their innocence and childishness as well as inexperience. Geisha do not wear them as they are too mature.

>>8753246
Yes. For St. Patrick's Day in London there was a parade and geisha were invited to attend as a thank you or some shit. I don't know, I'm not from London. The cost was probably pretty expensive.

>>8753251
You're confusing things. "Illegal" != "doesn't happen".

did they mutilate their feet or is that a chinese thing?

How many would be willing to entertain a filthy foreigner? And would they be looked down upon for doing this?

>>8753267
While much of the karyukai is shrouded in mystery to outsiders, I assure you that it is no longer practiced. Maiko don't even begin the rudimentary stages of apprenticeship til around age fifteen these days because you can't quit school in Japan until that age.

Is it true that some men could be Geishas?

>>8753272
No, of course not. But their okobo (or a geiko's geta) are made a size too small for more dainty steps (geisha are seen as the epitome of traditonal Japanese femininity). But some are so adept at wearing them that I've heard of some lightly jogging to get to their appointments.

>>8753277

That face actually scares me....

>>8753275
In the same way as entertaining a Japanese person. As being invited to an ochaya (a tea house where they hold ozashiki [parties]) is invitation only, they probably either speak Japanese or have a translator.

>>8753284
In the beginning I believe they were men, but then women took over. There are about a handful left (called taikomochi) in Tokyo.

at what age do they usually stop being a geisha. I assume they can't carry it on their whole lives.

>>8753297
Did they have same mizuage thing when they were male?

how is this /jp/ related?

Is it true that they're all dudes?

>>8753320
it isn't

>>8753289
She's actually quite popular.

>>8753303
Well, because it's such a highly difficult and demanding career (they get maybe 2 days off a month), a geisha usually retires somewhat early, because there aren't many career choices for a middle aged Japanese woman.

If one chooses to stay in the profession, she's either extremely successful or she intends to work within the karyukai when she ends her career. Some open their own okiya, some open tea shops, others becomes teachers within the okiya, etc.

There aren't any married geisha, either. if she decides to marry (often a client because those are the only people she really sees apart from her "sisters"), she must retire immediately.

>>8753320
More than these two

>>8752632
>>8753051

Can you make them not wear that white makeup?

>>8753326
Wow, what impeccable logic. Two threads are worse so let's make one that is less bad but still shit.

How do you tell a fake maiko/geiko? I keep hearing "You can tell by how they walk", but I still don't know. I assume the lot I've seen are fake, but it it true if they are walking around Gion, they are most likely the real deal?

>>8753309
I don't think so. As I've said, mizuage hasn't been practiced in over have a century, and men are so rare probably not known.

Males in this profession are basically obsolete. It's a strictly female hierarchy. There are strict rules of rank (even for Japan) and disobeying a superior is unwise.

There are men called otokoshi. The man with Mameyuri is called otokoshi. He’s an assistant to maiko and geiko and helps dress them in their elaborate garb (it is impossible for a fifteen year-old maiko to put on a 25ft. sash made of heavy silk brocade by herself, and it is not the job of other maiko/geiko to do it for her). It can take up to an hour to dress a geisha. Otokoshi also serve as escorts around the flower towns during special occasions such as the one pictured (her erikae [debut as a fully-qualified geisha] back in November).

i love the concept of geisha and the otaku counterpart maids
i wish we had entertainers here in the west too, why is it more acceptable if i pay for lewd things? maybe i just want to enjoy some nice company...

>Geisha are not prostitutes
Keep believing, weeaboos.

>>8753327
The white makeup is called oshiroi. They don't wear it when they aren't at an appointment or performing.

>>8753333
The fake ones are easy to tell because in Gion, maiko style their REAL hair (geisha wear a katsura [wig] styled in the maru mage way, the way married women used to style their hair in Japan, because they are in a sense married to their career) and the fake ones wear wigs. They're also older looking and maiko range from ages 15-21. Their kimonos are made of pure silk or have the correct seasonal patterns and embroidery, but rather a false polyester type thing.

>>8753330
What's so bad about this thread? It looks like a beacon of light compared to 60-80% of shit threads which fill /jp/ because our cherrypicking janitor thinks that people on /jp/ enjoy the same threads as people on /a/ do.

i don't like this. i don't like it at all.

>>8753327
Here >>8753356 is with the makeup. She has the smirk of a fox.

>>8753336
Geisha aren't lewd at all. They do flirt as part of the mystique and have drinking games with funny euphemisms, but they are not obligated to do anything else. Some geisha do have relationships with clients, but that is her personal business and has nothing to do with her trade.

This picture is a takamakura pillow. It's the pillow that maiko have to sleep on for the duration of their five-year apprenticeship because they only get their hair done once a week.

>>8753366
That facepaint... That smirk! I have so raging boner right now.

>Geisha are not prostitutes.
While, technically they are not. They are, everything they do is to represent the ideal of a perfect woman to their male patrons. To the point where most of them slept with their prized patrons. They were prostitutes, just selective classy prostitutes. The very act of an apprentice going from apprentice to full-fledged geisha involved selling her to a high-paying patron to lose her virginity. The entire geisha culture and profession is smeared with this sexuality and the idea of a woman as an object for a wealthy man's entertainment.

This is like saying, escorts aren't prostitutes.

How does a girl decide to become a geisha?

>>8753362
>OTAKU CULTURE

People like you really piss me off.

>>8753385
Thanks for sharing your feelings with us.

>>8753366

>laughinggeishas.jpg

>this thread is NOT /jp/ related. Reported.
>another VN thread? Take it to /vg/ peasant
>This anal masturbation thread looks interesting.

I know it's 2012 but it still blows my mind seeing Geisha on cellphones.

>>8753381
You cannot compare a geisha to anything in the western world, simply because there's nothing to compare them to. Christ, you could say a rock star is a prostitute because he solicits a service for money. It's subjective. And again, SHE IS NOT OBLIGATED TO FUCK A PATRON.

>>8753382
If a girl wishes to become a geisha, she's probably interested in the culture to begin with. She'll email the okiya and the okiya will require her to send a photo of herself, some basic information and a contact number. The okaa-san will discuss the idea with her parents, and if all's good to go and she makes it through a basic training phase, she becomes a shikomi for six months.

As a shikomi, she is in complete servitude to all geisha within the okiya and is not allowed to speak unless spoken to (if you know fifteen year old girls you understand how diffilcult that can be). When not performing chores, she helps dress and undress her sisters, practices tea ceremony, instruments, even how to walk in kimono. If she can handle this rigid discipline, she becomes a minarai for a month.

Minarai (literally means "watch and learn") is a practical phase of her training. She's now attending ozashikis and watching her "big sister" (i.e. mentor) at work. She also wears the kimono and oshiroi and has her hair styled so she can get used to it.

Then she has her misedashi, or debut as an apprentice. This goes on for five (or four) years until she's experienced enough to be a geisha. Then she has her erikae and can attend parties all on her own. The training is a permanent thing though. A geisha trains literally all her life to perfect the art.

>>8753362
I wasn't against this thread; I just found your logic to be retarded.

>>8753406
Again, that is like saying "Escorts are not obligated to have sex with their clients, so this means they aren't prostitutes!"

It's the most denialist bullshit excuse. They are prostitutes. They are classy selective upper-class prostitutes.

>>8753400
In Kyoto, cell phones r FORBIDDEENNN. When she's out in public anyway.

>>8753418
Probably trolling.

>>8753412
nope.jpg

for someone so into Japanese culture you really can't suspend your own for a few moments, huh?

>>8753418
This isn't a japanese culture board. Maybe you were looking for >>>/trv/ ?

>>8753412
I think you're missing the point. Geisha aren't selling their *bodies* for money. They're selling their trade skills in order to entertain. Everyone on the fucking planet does that.

>>8753426
Pipe the fuck down, autist boy. It's interesting and somewhat related.

>>8753429
But they do sell their bodies? It was the very act of initiation into being a full-fledged geisha.

This photo is of obidome (called pocchiri in Gion). Maiko wear very large and elaborate pocchiri that’s usually worth around $5K+ (some can be worth more if they are heirlooms) and is worn throughout her apprenticeship. They are accessories used in casual wear only and are not worn during special occasions.

Obidome are brooches worn on obijime, which is a woven silk rope used to hold the obi in place. An obi is the sash worn with kimono. Geiko and maiko wear maru obi, which is the most formal kind. Underneath their obi is obiage, which is sometimes called the “obi scarf”, and it helps keep the obi fixed in place. They also wear obi-ita, or obi board, that is used to stiffen the front of the obi and give the tube-like shape that was so desirable in the Edo period.

Unlike the long, darari-styled obi maiko wear, geiko need the obijime to hold their taiko-styled obi in place. Because they dress in a more mature/subdued way, they don’t use obidome/pocchiri.

Geisha wear many layers of silk (among other things) and therefore her garb must be put on very securely lest it slide.

A maiko is wearing at all times about $45K worth of clothing.

>>8753438
Their okaa-san auctioned their virginity back in the day and nothing more. The man who did this was to have no further business with the girl in question. Again, it was seen as a coming of age thing and a cause for celebration. To this day, while no longer practiced, the mizuage is not seen as a form of prostitution. It is certainly a weird ritual.

How come you know all of that?

>>8753445
No it isn't. You got to be pop the cherry at some point obviously.

>>8753439 A maiko is wearing at all times about $45K worth of clothing.
Woman in Japan like to measure up to their counterparts in AmeriKKKa, as I see.

does being trained in witty conversation mean they talk like a bakemonogatari character? I think I heard that shinobu talks with some dialect ancient jap escorts used or some shit.

>>8753445
No it isn't you got to pop the cherry at some point obviously.

>>8753448
Haha, that's a good point I guess.

>>8753446
Traditional Japan in general has always really, really fascinated me. Geisha in particular are so mysterious and beautiful and talented that I was particularly drawn to them.

>>8753232
>Geisha are not prostitutes; they are entertainers and masters of traditional dance, song, poetry, art, and witty conversation. Geisha translates to master of art. In Kyoto, where geisha are most popular and rigidly traditional, they are called geiko, or, child of the arts. Apprentices are referred to as maiko.

wrong.

>>8753431
It's neither interesting nor related.

Not to mention that its all factually incorrect as well.

Please go back to reddit

I don't see why you are all angry on the OP.
I think its a quite interesting thread and far away from from a shitposting/troll thread.Even the OP is behaving polite and good.

the only bad people in this thread are the few guys who spam Geisha = prostitution.

>>8753457
Well, if you're from like Sapporo or something and you move to Kyoto to be a geisha, you have to learn Kyoto dialect. (For instance, they say "ookini!" instead of "arigatou!")

Witty conversation means that they make you feel comfortable and tell stories or play drinking games and things like that. Here's one called Kompira Fune Fune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8lIfHIxbHg

The How-To is in the description.

Hey guys, they aren't prostitutes okay. They just sold their bodies and even virginities and had okaa-sans and okiyas. TOTALLY NOT COMPARABLE TO BROTHELS AND MADAMS BY THE WAY YOU CAN TELL BECAUSE IT'S OKAA-SAN NOT MADAM

You just don't understand this is a unique special Japanese thing it's not just the same thing that mankind has been doing since before history with the flavor of the Japanese culture.

>>8753491
This might surprise you but no one actually gives a shit.

>>8753491
Take a nap.

>>8753485
Geisha = yakuza controlled prostitutes.

Sound familiar?

>>8753499
sorry i cant follow you
explain me again.
are you implying geishas are controlled by the yakuza?

>>8753494
Why do you give a shit if they are prostitutes? Prostitution is a legitimate profession that has been with us forever, it's perfectly respectable job especially when in such a highly classy form as a geisha. It being prostitution doesn't somehow make it worse or lower, it's just very disingenuous to claim it isn't.

>>8753406
Do people drop out of the training process if they can't handle it? Are there a number of might-have-beens running around?

>>8753517
>Why do you give a shit?
This might surprise you - but nobody actually gives a shit.

>>8753525
Why do you give a shit?

There should be Japanese girls that devote their entire lives to pretending to be touhous so I can pay to escape from reality and take it easy with them for a few hours.

>>8753538
geisha a shit

>>8753520
Ooooooooooh yes. There are many drop outs. Some third year maikos even quit and have a big debt to repay the okaa-san. A maiko is under nenki (contract) for her whole apprenticeship. The okaa-san pays for her expensive kimonos (at least four for each season), hanakanzashi (hair ornaments), shoes, weekly hairstylings, etc. etc. etc. She pays it back over the course of her apprenticeship and for some of her career as a geisha. The more popular, the quicker she pays it off.

Once the debt is paid she's an independent geisha (jimae geisha) and can opt to leave the okiya if she so chooses. They typically stay though for further experience training.

this is actually a interesting thread

>>8753297
This geisha is Mamesuzu and she's about 28 years-old. She's very gifted and successful. She's the best shinobue (a japanese flute that's difficult to master) player in Gion.

Feel free to have a listen: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11588476@N08/4018551162/

>>8753608
About 28? Looks more like 48 to me.

What's the reason for the white makeup?

>>8753356
About the makeup, I see their faces painted, but not their hands, is there a rule about how far down do they have to paint themselves?.

>>8753377
Looks uncomfortable.

>>8753610
Yeah, the makeup and wig are designed to make them more mature looking. She looks a bit older than most, though. She's really cool, though.

Here she is doing a handstand: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11588476@N08/3497092202/

The other girl was too drunk, haha. I should point out that after a public festival called Miyako Odori, the geisha don't have time to reapply makeup for their ozashiki. This is the only time where it's acceptable.

>>8753614
They only paint their faces and the nape of their neck/back. When standing around idly, they usually cover their hands, though.

The sanbonashi (three legs/prongs) on the nape of the maiko’s neck is worn during formal occasions only, such as a misedashi, an erikae, Hassaku, and various other festivals throughout the year. Because it is only worn on special occasions, sanbonashi is always painted on by a makeup artist hired by the matriarch of the okiya (geisha house); whereas eriashi (the standard two prongs) is applied by the geisha herself once she has been taught how.

The photo is preparations for misedashi (the formal debut of a maiko). You can tell from the more elaborate version of the wareshinobu hairstyle.

Are geishas really robots?

>>8753614
I should also add that in Japanese culture the nape of the neck is seen as erotic.

And you can tell the rank of a maiko by her collar and hair. The girl on the left is a senior maiko, and the girl on the right is a junior maiko. Junior maiko also have more red on their collars, whereas sr. maiko only have red on the back half.

These two aren't wearing okobo because it was the rainy season.

>>8753642
So what do they do if they go around the streets like that? Or is that a montage?

Have you ever been to a tea ceremony with geishas?

Have you ever tried a Geisha?

>>8753647
They go out in the streets to walk (or hail a cab) to their next appointment (lessons, festivals, private ozashikis, etc.)

Some go out for photo ops for tourists.

>>8753633
Possibly.

>>8753655
Pfft. Hell no, I'm too broke for that. And it's invitation only, regrettably.

Geisha in their respective flower towns (hanamachi) do hold public outings though. There are five hanamachi (Gion Kobu, Gian Higashi, Miyagawa-cho, Pontocho, and Kamishichiken) that hold their own respective festivals.

For instance, Kamishichiken holds Baikasai, a plum blossom festival held in February with tea ceremonies performed by the geiko and maiko of the district.

I just wanted to thank you for this very interesting thread, OP, and I have two questions as well.

About how much does a geisha make per month, assuming all her expenses have been paid off?
Who was the most successful geisha throughout history?

>>8753692
It would vary depending on who her clients were and how popular she was. A successful geiko can own a minimum of 12 $5K fine silk kimonos, though. I can't really gauge the amount because it's not something shared. On New Years', there's a week for Shigyoshiki, where geisha thank patrons and connections for their support and you can find out who was most popular and who advanced most throught the past year, but they won't say how much one makes.

Rest assured, it is a lot. Maiko make 1/3 of the salary geiko make.

It's debatable? Mineko Iwasaki was the most successful geisha of her time. She is whom that travesty Memoirs of a Geish ai (very loosely) based. She retired at the age of thirty.

Mineko Iwasaki once entertained the Queen of England, so that should give an inkling to her success.

I heard that it was pretty expensive. Like when a business group goes to a tea house the boss writes a one million yen cheque when they leave

>>8753731
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichiriki_Ochaya

Well, they get charge by the hour. They burn an incense stick and go by that. If you're there for the first time you pay up front, and if you come back again they bill you later. If you go enough and become patron of the tea house, they'll just keep a running tab. It's invitation only because of the prices. They can't just trust anyone to pay so much. And yes, it's usually fun group sessions.

I should also point out that if anyone ever goes to Japan and has the opportunity to experience Gion, you go to only one tea house for the rest of your life (you can meet different geisha, but the tea house is your permanent place for ozashiki) otherwise it's considered taboo.

>>8753731
>>8753760
I should add that you basically have to know someone to get in. It's a connections thing. And if you don't pay the first time, they charge the person who invited you and you're banned from coming back. Your friend will also hate you.

I can't imagine anything under "entertainers" and witty conversation. What exactly do you do with them? In detail please.

of all the beers, why fucking super dry

>>8753776
>>8753776
You know how Japanese business folks are wound up as fuck all the time from working such long hours? They're just there to help them relax and have fun in an old school way. Some recite poetry, some dance, others flirt and drink, some play music, some draw/paint, etc.

Have you ever had a really nice conversation with someone? They do that, but they've mastered it so they can converse with anyone on any subject.

And if you tell a geisha your secrets, she's bound by a code not to share it with anyone, ever. It dies with her. If she shares, she's made into an outcast and is shamed.

>>8753818
Never, ever smile with white face paint on.

>>8753837
I bet that is just part of required facial expressions for "oni" paint.

Haha, yeah.

>>8753848
Sorry, meant to quote >>8753837.

>>8753285
This one was the most popular geisha in Kyoto until she retired last March to go to college.

>>8753818
Her teeth look yellow...
That reminds me, I heard they had their teeth painted black in the past.
Do they not do this anymore, or am I confusing things?

>>8753898
Everyone's teeth would look yellow if you have white paint on your face. It's the contrast. Try to smile next time when you have shaving foam around your mouth.

>>8753898
For the week before they debut as a full-fledged geisha, they use ohaguro, yes. But apart from that, they don't use it.

>>8753926
This all makes me wonder on what kind of drugs all great ancient Japanese people were when they came up with all this.

These all are like pulled out from Japanese mythology book. And those type of books are very bizarre and most done while on drugs.

>>8753936

To be fair, I think all of the old religions were pretty crazy.

To be fair, I think all of the religions are pretty crazy.