/jp/ - Otaku Culture

You... really shouldn't read too deep into it.

It's just random stuff stringed together into semi-coherent narrative, there's no intended message or morality behind it.

The Japanese eat shit like this up, but we in the west are used to creators having some semblance of structured idea behind their work, not just piling up and iterating whatever worked for them before.

It's all style and absolutely no substance.

he saw the portrait died of a heart atk from the shock and as a result saw the whole cast do to his death

>>8738464
Maybe. I've noticed the Japanese do love their bullshit logic games. They take it too far and most of their fight scenes come down to some crazy paper-rock-scissors deal for instance. But hey, I find this stuff entertaining too obviously.

>>8738515
Why would he? Are we to assume he had some sort of experience with 'Beatrice'? Isn't the Battler we all know who loves her just a delusion of Ange's?

>>8738531
it would be the emotional shock do to reliving his bad experiences after finally gaining back all of his other personality

>>8738535
Haha, so Ange went out of her way and got him killed. Awesome.

>>8738542
exactly, what she thought would bring him closure ended up killing him as a result he did get to see everyone again in the golden land

>>8738542

Yes, it was to help him move on.

Battler's personality was stuck in limbo.

>Secondly, a shitstorm generator. As much as I love Umineko, I, as an atheist, find the overall message of this work fucking disgusting.

There was no message.

Stop being a faggot. Also from the sound of it you're not an atheist, you're anti-theist. If the mere mention of faith actually disgusts you then you go out of your way to be mad at said subject, making you a dumbass.

>>8738554
Interesting. But seeing as you're an Erika fan, not sure if can trust.

>>8738601
just trying to bring reason to the ending when we all know magic dose not exist

>>8738596
Well, being an anti-theist doesn't mean I'm not still an atheist.

It's not the mere mention of faith that disgusts me, it's the apparent endorsement of it. If you insist there's no message then so be it. But there was an awful lot of time spent explaining what 'magic' was and it was made exceedingly clear that it should be accepted.

>>8738619
Indeed. It feels like I'm not even supposed to ask these questions since I've already chosen 'magic'.

Trick end is true end, amirite?

>>8738621

If you can't accept "magic" within the context of a medium then you're a sad person.

>>8738643
by author's standards no, magic is the "good" ending
but trick makes more sense

>>8738640
>within the context of a medium
If you mean as a simple plot point, then sure, I could easily. However, in case you didn't notice, Ryukishi repeatedly drug us, the readers, into the story. I take this as the author trying to tell us something.

>>8738664

If you're implying millions of umineko readers are suddenly going to believe in magic because he wrote a engrossing story with magic in it... well fuck what can I even say.

Are you also angry that millions of impressionable kids read harry potter?

>>8738671
You seem to be lost. My contention is with Umineko's 'magic', aka deception. Specifically the self-deception of faith that was heralded in the 'good' ending.

>>8738682

So it is faith that's making you angry.

The fact you can't accept someone living a better life because they have faith in something, makes you disgusted.

Also let me stop you before try to insist R07 was trying to brainwash us into something which i dont even know why you're so angry about.

>>8738682
I don't think that the them of Umineko had anything to do with faith. It was more about love, and remembering the good times/aspects of the dead and moving on with your life.

Even if it was about faith, you've got serious problems if you find that "disgusting". It is not like you have to accept and take to heart the theme of every work that you read.

>>8738687
At no point have I suggested brainwashing. I am simply stating that if the author is putting forth the position that lying to yourself and probably others to get ahead is the correct or 'good' thing to do, then I disagree.

>>8738693
I agree with this. It's not about blindly believing something that is disprovable, but rather seeing the best out of what could be. More or less when in doubt, think happy.

>>8738709

>At no point have I suggested brainwashing.
>Ryukishi repeatedly drug us, the readers, into the story. I take this as the author trying to tell us something.

You seem to think readers HAVE to relate and accept whatever this "message" is. And you're disgusted over how he even dares imply such a way of living is possible.

Also faith doesn't automatically have to do with god or a higher being. The fact you mention god in your original post just proves are dense you are on the topic of faith.

>>8738715
Nah, that would just be hope. It totally was about blindly believing in stuff. I remember a line equating the two which is wrong.

>>8738693
I only take to heart themes where it seems that I'm supposed to, which seems to be the case with Umineko.

>>8738726
First part was just wrong, not addressing.

I mentioned God because Ange did. She became a believer in some god, probably the Christian one. Apparently the belief your dead familiy will come back is a "gateway faith of the worst kind."

I considered the point of view you were talking about with "God's Will" but there are actually a couple of instances where Umineko is actually quite cynical with religion.

I think the message was more against those that dedicate their lives to the past, conspiracies theories, and public "curiosity" consuming people. There was very little in the "magic" ending that involved magic to actually happen. It was merely the mentality of not being so vindictive as to destroy a simple children's trick that distincted the two endings.

>>8738745

>She became a believer in some god, probably the Christian one.
>Japan
>Christians

You some kinda redneck?

>>8738749
Thank you, Princess. That's more or less what I got out of it too.

I bet you complained about The Odyssey because Poseidon doesn't control the waves.

>>8738757
Christianity is mentioned often in Umineko. I am well aware that it isn't prevalent there.

>>8738767

Christianity is seen as a myth in japan, like how zeus and thor are seen as a myth pretty much everywhere else.

They use Christian lexicon because it sounds cool. Quit being ignant.

>>8738779
Yes, all Japanese people use Christian mythology in the same way, no exceptions can possibly exist. I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but all of the arguments made against him in this thread are downright retarded.

>>8738785

If you read umineko you would know it was indeed used that way.

>>8738785
But the thing is, if Myth is the norm, then OP should probably show proof within the work itself that it is some kind of Christian evangelical material. In all honesty, that stuff sticks out like a sore thumb. If it's not clearly gobbling the trinity's collective knob, it's probably not trying to convert you.

>>8738749
>It was merely the mentality of not being so vindictive as to destroy a simple children's trick that distincted the two endings.

It can be dangerous not to. Umineko went into this at length and I'm surprised that it seemed to flop on the issue.

In this 'good' ending Ange accepts a form of hush money from Okonogi. The amount is increased under the guise of two names and O.K.'ed for the rest of the company as being "living expenses." She's continuing the shady practices of the Ushiromiya family. Faith in one's own virtue and mission leads people to be O.K. with this sort of thing. Not being critical of the truth isn't so benign.

>>8738793
Which is why everyone talks about faith and God and shit, right? No fuck you, I did read it and unlike you, I actually understood the themes presented.

I like how this is just the sort of thing Ryukishi calls people "bad readers" for: inserting your own ideas into his story where they're clearly not

>>8738793
It was at first. Didn't seem that way at the end though.

>>8738796
Who said it was evangelical or trying to convert? All the OP is saying is that it seems to be coming from a Christian perspective, and that he disagrees with it because he sees it as dishonest.

>>8738798

No one talks about it because it isnt important you dumb shit.

The OP is the one bringing it up.

>>8738807
I meant in the VN, shithead.

>WAAH FAITH HOPE AND OPTIMISM ARE FOR BABBY THEISTS
>I'M SO EDGY
>AM I COOL YET GUYZE
who do you think you're impressing, again?
this may be /jp/, but still man, what

>>8738810

Who isn't?

>I, as an atheist
k

>>8738798
You can talk about faith and God and religion without the work being religious. By "religious," I mean a work with proselytizing as its principle thematic aim (e.g. The Pilgrim's Progress).

If you have to question whether a work was religious, it probably wasn't.

>>8738464
But Japan hated the ending,faggot.

>Because I'm an athiest, I disagree with X,Y, and Z

>WHY YOU ARE JAMMING YOUR BELIEFS DOWN MY THROAT DO YOU THINK UR EDGY OR SOMETHING I REALLY DON'T CARE AT ALL BAWWW

>>8738832

>>8738820
Sure. I, the OP, wasn't suggesting that the message of Umineko is explicitly Christion or even relgious. But it does seem to me to upholding the prerequisite of these things which is faith or dishonesty.

>>8738832
>saging with an image
pls go

>>8738836

You seem to have a phallic shaped object inserted quite deeply into your rectum.

I can't believe there are actually people out there who go out of their way to be mad at something that has no consequence on their lives.

>>8738832

That's not what the OP was saying.

Also, I agree the theme of the later episodes does seem inconsistent with the rest but I think that's because of the point of view it's coming from. For Battler it was important to solve the mystery and remember the truth. For Ange, it wasn't really her battle. The "Stop thinking" thing applied to Battler and his place in the game. Ange wasn't a part of that - Bernkastel shoehorned her in. It's showing the way different characters reached different conclusions, and there are still characters within the game who would not necessarily be happy with the way things went(mostly Erika, but still).

Battler found his solace by solving the mystery and understanding the truth. Ange found hers by realising that living in the past and in conspiracy theories which were sometimes no better or believable than "Magic" was not a good idea.

The game could have been clearer on this of course, but it's the only solution that seems consistent.

/jp/ sure is shitty today

>>8738836
There are many things that require a sort of simple non-empirical belief. Believing that friends will remain friends, believing that the people around you won't betray you, believing that the person you love loves you back, etc. The story was more about these small beliefs rather than religious belief. Belief can be pernicious, but the story wasn't focused on that aspect of belief.

You can complain about it, but that's like reading a story about the power of friendship then complaining about how it doesn't portray how some friends can abuse and betray the trust of others. It's only a valid complaint if you think the author was offering logical arguments for his thematic position. In other words, it's not really a valid complaint in the realm of fiction.

Sure is Goats in here.

>implying the ending to umineko had anything to do with religion
>implying battler was an atheist (he has a cross around his neck for christs sake)
>implying your not an obsessed faggot who sees religious influences in places there are none
>implying the lord and saviour jesus christ is bullshit
>implying on/jp/

>>8738906

>implying battler was an atheist (he has a cross around his neck for christs sake)

While there's really no conclusive hint whether he was a theist or not, that is so stupid i can't believe you even mentioned it.

First of all, it's very, very doubtful he was christian in the 80's in japan and even if he was, that cross is upside down and almost certainly just a decorate zipper for his blazer.

>>8738894
I wouldn't bother criticizing something like TTGL. The power of belief lets you throw galaxies at your opponent. Sure, fine. Are you saying that Umineko is in the same category? Umineko has a lot of fantasy elements to it, but at it's core it's supposed to be atleast half mystery. It deals largely with internal struggles of human emotions and the 'good' ending was all too human.

>>8738916

Forgot my image

>involves accepting lies
Fucking this and why umiunko will always be shit.
Having a retarded boy filled with cash that lost his dick being the catalyst is bad enough but then Ange escapism and running to fantasy world because she was too afraid to know and confirm that his family are a bunch of murderer was the final straw.
Terrible execution and plot as well(fiction in a fiction).
This is as classless as a "it is all dream" story.
Fucking bullshit.
As long as I havent read umiunko, umiunko can be a good story!
Am I doing it right Ryushitty07?

In ep1-4
Battler = Christian apologetics
Witches side = Satans demons trying to deceive and make him submit
Battler sticks to his faith and is vindicated in episode 4

>>8738959
>Battler = Christian apologetics
By arguing that everything is explainable through humans? Haha, no.

>>8738945

You obviously didn't understand the story.

There's no accepting lies anywhere at any point.

It was all a dream thing is the fantasy world of umineko. If you were paying attention you'd realize there was actually 2 stories being told: The real world and the meta world.

>>8738966
No, not because he believes humans but because he sticks to what he believes even when everyone else deserts him.

>>8738906
He wears a cross because he's guilty.

>>8738419

>faggotry

Don't do that.

>>>/a/

>>8738913
Basically yes. R07 also denies that Umineko was a mystery, although it did use the tropes of mystery to tell the story. Based on that, Umineko should probably be considered fantasy with some plot elements borrowed from mystery. It's possible that R07 originally intended it mainly to be a mystery but he changed his mind toward the end; however, we only have the completed story as it stands now.

I meant the original point (i.e. authors of fiction usually do not argue logically for their theme in the story) to be more generally applicable, though. The theme has logic within the fictional setting, but it's a mistake to consider the presentation of the theme as a coherent and logical argument. Authors usually present something in theme that has emotional validity to them rather than absolute logical validity. Even if Umineko had principally been a mystery, the story would only have internal logic (i.e. consistency) within the setting, not logical validity for the theme.

>>8738982
You are the one that didnt understand the story silly anon.
It is a shitty cake but nobody know what it taste like without eating it.
Umineko is like that, as long as nobody read the story anything can is possible to happen.
I have no idea why you are trying to bring your shitty meta world in here. That is just for the fans to fanwank over 34, Rika and hurr durr huge powerlvl fight.

>>8738982
You are the one that didnt understand the story silly anon.
It is a shitty cake but nobody know what it taste like without eating it.
Umineko is like that, as long as nobody read the diary anything is possible on Rokkenjima on that fateful day.
I have no idea why you are trying to bring your shitty meta world in here. That is just for the fans to fanwank over 34, Rika and hurr durr huge powerlvl fight.